NationStates Jolt Archive

The Socialist Militaristic Empire of Latica would like to announce to all of its alliance members and friends that they are working on a new line of Main Battle Tanks to strenghten the armies of its friends and itself.

The series will be based mainly on the robustness of the Leopard II MBT and the light, but incredible effective armour of the Challenger II (This armour will be about 10 Metric Tons lighter than the Leopard II's just to make it realistic, if you can provide the stats, even estimated ones). Also we will have the loading mechanism for the Neo-Panzer MBT series automatic. And we also hope to add a 130+ MM Rifled/Smoothbore cannon. (Preferable Rifled, and we would like the cannon to be already made)

Current Project

Completed Projects

Neo-Panzer I-2a:
Cost=
7 million USD
Statistics:-:
Neo-Panzer I-2a
Crew:: 4
Dimensions----
Weight: 92 metric tonnes
Length: 9.5m
Width: 4.4m
Height: 3m
Performance----
Maximum Speed: 83km/hr
Maximum Range: 625km
Systems----Powerplant: MTU MB 971 multi-fuel, 2,500hp
Transmission: RENK HSWL 354
Gunner's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics EMES 15 with thermal channel and laser rangefinder
Commander's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics PERI-R17A2 with thermal channel
Armament----
Main Gun 1 x 135mm ETC gun system
Gun 1 x FN MAG Standart Model with modified barrel and configurations to load and fire a 7.92x57mm (8mm Mauser) round
Gun 1 x 7.62mm anti-aircraft machine gun
------

Neo-Panzer II-5D:
Cost=
10 Million USD
Statistics:-:
Neo-Panzer Prototype II-5D
Crew:: 4
Dimensions----
Weight: 126 metric tonnes
Length: 10.5m
Width: 6.3m
Height: 4.1m
Performance----
Maximum Speed: 78km/hr
Maximum Range: 550km
Systems----Powerplant: MTU ZI 2219 multi-fuel, 21,300hp
Transmission: RENK HSWL 601
Gunner's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics EMES 15 with thermal channel and laser rangefinder
Commander's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics PERI-R17A2 with thermal channel
Armament----
Main Gun 1 x 152mm Smoothbore ETC gun system
Gun 1 x Kord 15.5 moddified from the Kord 12.7
Gun 1 x 82mm Mortar
Gun 4 x CIWS
Armour----
1. Layer: ERA integrated block plates
2. Layer: 2 ply, bias, 14 ga corragated sheet metal (I have my reasons for suggesting this)*
3. Layer: NeRA chambers
4. Layer: Chobam armor reinforced with DU rods
5. Layer: Kevlar spall liner impregnated with 'liquid armor' solution
6. Layer: Faraday cage (copper clad mild steel) with uncoated kevlar insulation covering (nearly airtight)
----

Lang-Panzer I-4C:
Cost=
8 Million USD
Statistics:-:
Lang-Panzer Prototype I-4C
Crew:: 4
Dimensions----
Weight: 100 Metric Tonnes
Length: 9.5m
Width: 5.3m
Height: 4.1m
Performance----
Maximum Speed: 91km/hr
Maximum Range: 650km
Systems----Powerplant: MTU ZI 2219 multi-fuel, 21,300hp
Transmission: RENK HSWL 601
Gunner's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics EMES 15 with thermal channel and laser rangefinder
Commander's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics PERI-R17A2 with thermal channel
Armament----
Main Gun 1 x 135mm Rifled ETC gun system
Gun 1 x Kord 15.5 moddified from the Kord 12.7
Gun 1 x Apollo Missle Launcher System
Armour----
1. Layer: ERA integrated block plates
2. Layer: 2 ply, bias, 14 ga corragated sheet metal (I have my reasons for suggesting this)*
3. Layer: NeRA chambers
4. Layer: Chobam armor reinforced with DU rods
5. Layer: Kevlar spall liner impregnated with 'liquid armor' solution
6. Layer: Faraday cage (copper clad mild steel) with uncoated kevlar insulation covering (nearly airtight)

SALES:
10,000 Panzer I-2a -First Buyer, Scandivian at 18Billion USD

Total Made from Panzer I-2a: 180 Billion USD
Total Made: 180 Billion USD

OOC: Anyone who wants to join this RP will right an introductry posts and I will accept them or die them, I retain the right to kick you out of the RP if you get to wild or any other reason, even if irrational.

The Mayflower Corporation has taken over the Neo-Panzer MBT production line and has decided to have dual 105 MM Rifled Cannons, or possible triple. They are currently looking for a concept art drawing, of which they will pay fifty billion USD.

(The lower hull, and turret need to look like a combination of the Leopard II and Challenger II, and the front must have two or three 105 MM Rifled Cannons for the guns. They can be connected or not, dosn't matter.)

OOC: The GIa might want some if you could give me a price for each tank...

ICCD would like to point you to an intersting technology seeing as you are opting for less armour.

The technology couples to protect against total loss scenarios from RPG's.

ICCD is feild testing it in a number of it's APC's and Medium Airlift tanks. It looks like it will prolong battle life of our fast response combat vehicles. We are feilding it with slat modified vehicles, with impressive composite alloy shells. Normal Steel isn't regularlly used by our combat vehicles anymore for a number of reasons, including generic defaults.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F08%2F19%2Fnmod19.xml

OOC: Meh. EleRA isn't really anything new, and the standard tandem warheads used in modern HEAT explosives defeat it just as well as they defeat conventional ERA.

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12082488']ICCD would like to point you to an intersting technology seeing as you are opting for less armour.

The technology couples to protect against total loss scenarios from RPG's.

ICCD is feild testing it in a number of it's APC's and Medium Airlift tanks. It looks like it will prolong battle life of our fast response combat vehicles. We are feilding it with slat modified vehicles, with impressive composite alloy shells. Normal Steel isn't regularlly used by our combat vehicles anymore for a number of reasons, including generic defaults.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F08%2F19%2Fnmod19.xml

Ah heck no... not this stuff again...

The ubiquitous RPG-7 anti-tank grenade launcher can be picked up for a mere $10 Right, so how come Leaf is selling them for a few hundred?

And is it just me, or does how this works sound like Gas metal Arc Cutting with a HEAT projectile?

In a recent demonstration of the electric armour for senior Army officers, an APC protected by the new British system survived repeated attacks by rocket-propelled grenades that would normally have destroyed it several times over. Didn't hear about it, and when something this great comes along, it would make headlines not in the lab, but in the field...
Also, I'm pretty sure what they really re-discovered was spaced armor and thermal insulators... Something older than Chahobam... As a 12 watt battery won't provide nearly enough power to 'vaporise' a penetrator...

When the warhead fires its jet of molten copper, it penetrates both the outer plate and the insulation of the inner plate. This makes a connection and thousands of amps of electricity vaporises most of the molten copper. The rest of the copper is dispersed harmlessly against the vehicle's hull.
Incorect, it is more like pushing a copper plate with so much force that it not only bulges, but turns into a needle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superplasticity)...

It sounds about as correctt as the earlier claim that cold fusion could be done with a stick of bubblegum, along with using a mix of Soap and orange juice concentrate to make explosives...

I've cut my way through plenty of steel plates with less force, a smaller 'jet' and far less amps with a metod that sounds exactly like how the armor works, it is called Arc gouging and cutting. A 12" long rod of 1/8" graphite will go through 6" of plate steel this way...

And I'd suggest firing their editor, they mispelled NATO on one of their linked reports...
-------
This is were my personal experiance with electricity, metals as both solids, liquids and gas, versus what some tabloid claims comes into perspective...

Ah heck no... not this stuff again...

Right, so how come Leaf is selling them for a few hundred?

And is it just me, or does how this works sound like Gas metal Arc Cutting with a HEAT projectile?

Didn't hear about it, and when something this great comes along, it would make headlines not in the lab, but in the field...
Also, I'm pretty sure what they really re-discovered was spaced armor and thermal insulators... Something older than Chahobam... As a 12 watt battery won't provide nearly enough power to 'vaporise' a penetrator...


Incorect, it is more like pushing a copper plate with so much force that it not only bulges, but turns into a needle...

It sounds about as correct as the earlier claim that cold fusion could be done with a stick of bubblegum, along with using a mix of Soap and orange juice concentrate to make explosives...

I've cut my way through plenty of steel plates with less force, a smaller 'jet' and far less amps with a metod that sounds exactly like how the armor works, it is called Arc gouging and cutting. A 12" long rod of 1/8" graphite will go through 6" of plate steel this way...

And I'd suggest firing their editor, they mispelled NATO on one of their linked reports...
^^^ note the article was a RL article from 2002 by a UK news agency. Not a game one. I'm not the right person to answer about pricing.. although his RPG shells are indeed $10 if I remember my recent order. The Actual RPG launchers tend to be priced more..the source of the cheap RL RPG's is anyones geuss. The article is from 2002 before the iraq invasion.. I'm not sure when Iraq started liquidating it's inventories before march of 2003.

The stuff creates an energy sheild (plasma is superheated matter.. because it is hotter it rises OUT.. because plasma goes UP. (hot things rise) thus it offsets the momementum.. THere is a energy (force) tanget issue.. technically you just apply more force then it goes the other way. simple physics.. A whole bunch of RPG's may be an issue (not sure how many it would depend on the battery). (of course there would be other minor effects and it would be wise to sheild layers under the charge. There are really big plasma systems.. such as the shiva star system which was incorporated into one of my fighter designs.

anyway I'm not saying iit is a "end all to defence" but it is well worth the buck, as it takes out "low cost kills" .. like a BIG GUN.. is harder to transport covertly. that is just it.. it is the little guns and packs that are the pain in the as, armour is suppose to be infantry resistant cannons.. etc.. if you can't defend a million dollar peice of equipmant against a 500$ soilder that is cost attrition.. true you can win but at what cost. If you are shelving out 10 million for a tank is throwing in a few extra 100k not worth the defence.. what good is a scrap tank?

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12082642']^^^ note the article was a RL article from 2002 by a UK news agency. Not a game one.

The article is from 2002 before the iraq invasion..

It is wishfull thinking that will get someone killed...

When you are using the same technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_cutter) used to cut through metal* - with the least amount of effort - to defend a tank... it doesn't bode well.

*That is why Electric Arc Cutting and Gouging is used.

GMAC is GMAW [MiG welding] with the wire feed speed (amperage) cranked up. The wire is usually kept thin to reduce required amperage to melt the wire/cut the base metal. I tended to do this very frequently, and I can recognize a description of it from a considerable distance.

If you are really lucky, the penetrator will do a pulsed spray transfer onto the plate, but heaven help you if you get a short circut...

A pipe with oxygen pumped through it would eat through a tank like that in seconds...
(See also Arc Oxygen lancing (http://www.pgegroup.com/oxylance.html)) Compare that to the cost of an RPG...
Oxygen lancing is also used to put holes in PWR chambers...

The stuff creates an energy sheild (plasma is superheated matter.. because it is hotter it rises OUT.. because plasma goes UP. (hot things rise) thus it offsets the momementum.. THere is a energy (force) tanget issue.. technically you just apply more force then it goes the other way. simple physics.. A whole bunch of RPG's may be an issue (not sure how many it would depend on the battery). (of course there would be other minor effects and it would be wise to sheild layers under the charge. There are really big plasma systems.. such as the shiva star system which was incorporated into one of my fighter designs.
Now you are talking about radiating plasma from the tank to stop the shells, that use purely in the PMT-FT realm, and was not what the article was about, oh well...

anyway I'm not saying iit is a "end all to defence" but it is well worth the buck, as it takes out "low cost kills" .. like a BIG GUN.. is harder to transport covertly. that is just it.. it is the little guns and packs that are the pain in the as, armour is suppose to be infantry resistant cannons.. etc.. if you can't defend a million dollar peice of equipmant against a 500$ soilder that is cost attrition.. true you can win but at what cost. If you are shelving out 10 million for a tank is throwing in a few extra 100k not worth the defence.. what good is a scrap tank?
See above
RPG-7 vs a 2 meter length of Pipe...
And to make it fun, it'll be in the form of a land mine, so it'll be going up and as you said 'hot things rise', so in this case, your armor is helping the enemy...

Note PAC can cut over 12" of plate, and it don't give a dang what RHAe is...
12" is 12"
--------
I think I'll stop before I pop a gasket and punch a hole into my monitor...

I assume you mean very compressed oxygen.. my guess is the pipe would be slag in seconds. You could use a very high thermal system but I'd have to check temp specks.

Cutting a hole in a tank can be done, that is why in part you use a variety of defences, anti projectile buckshot, etc.. as well as chat type shelling. Having anti personnel defences around the tank also help out. But it is an added defence. You can't get a short circuit if it is a one way system, what happens is the armour detects the breach the field is active (note feild) the feild acts as a shell against the projectile, the stream then bounces the stuff back the other way, protecting the internal components.

Nah it isn't PMT-FT.. it is what the system does. It is already been tested. It exists. What don't you understand about this incredibly simple system. You turn anything hot enough it turns to plasma. (you just need to get 'special' electron activity going on)

As for a land mine true but it still wouldn't get past the field unless the battery died, so you use a two phase current, the first would magnetically charge it and the second would repulse it.

Many things can go through 1 ft of plate.

It is in part a matter of the strength of the field.. technically it is a type of force field. They exist. I think people are just like MT is just nuts and bolts, no science.

but it is funny that what many people consider PMT is MT.. it is just military systems are lagged by 20 years. stuff you see now is 20 years old.


Note my system and this system are a bit different. PATENT#....
here is a 2005 report on basically the same system.. joules went up on these systems from kilo to mega...
http://www.na.baesystems.com/releasesDetail.cfm?a=379


I only vaugely consider stuff like this very early PMT because most militaries take 10+ years to tool up and pump out. but it is now not soon to be discovered techs like 10$ cancer cures (like fresh air)


Speaking of which this may be a good source for some ideas on your tank design.

http://tardec.army.mil/

What don't you get? There is no field. If there was a field, it would boil the flesh of anyone in the tank, or near it.

All it is is a pair of plates, one grounded, one running a strong current. Projectile hits, completes a circuit, and is vaporised by the resistance. The projectile doesn't stop going into the tank, but it's lack of cohesion prevents much more penetration, as it's now an extremely hot gas. It works ONCE, then the capacitors need to be recharged, which takes a good long time unless you want to kill the tank's batteries. Thus, tandem HEAT warheads, multiple RPGs, etc. will defeat it with ease. Verdict: Use slat armor or conventional ERA, possibly ERA in conjunction with EleRA to defeat the first tandem warhead coming at you. Of course, you're still incredibly screwed against the second RPG, and where there's one...

OOC: The GIa might want some if you could give me a price for each tank...

The price is about Challenger II + .5 the price of the Leopard II.

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;12082488']ICCD would like to point you to an intersting technology seeing as you are opting for less armour.

The technology couples to protect against total loss scenarios from RPG's.

ICCD is feild testing it in a number of it's APC's and Medium Airlift tanks. It looks like it will prolong battle life of our fast response combat vehicles. We are feilding it with slat modified vehicles, with impressive composite alloy shells. Normal Steel isn't regularlly used by our combat vehicles anymore for a number of reasons, including generic defaults.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F08%2F19%2Fnmod19.xml

Seem affective, this will be thought out whether to use it or not, looks like a yes so far, though.

OOC:
One thing i would suggerst is that you don't bother witha rifled gun. Rifling is great if you want to chuck HE and HESH rounds out to fairly long ranges against T-55s and early T-72s but for true tank killing you need APFSDS, and to an extent HEAT, ammo both of which function far better from a smoothbore gun for a number of reasons.

Good point. :p

OOC:
One thing i would suggerst is that you don't bother witha rifled gun. Rifling is great if you want to chuck HE and HESH rounds out to fairly long ranges against T-55s and early T-72s but for true tank killing you need APFSDS, and to an extent HEAT, ammo both of which function far better from a smoothbore gun for a number of reasons.

This post should be IC as it has to do with the RP. We will treat is as such-OOC

IC: Will these HEAT and APFSDS rounds work in 105 MM Smoothbore cannons?

This post should be IC as it has to do with the RP. We will treat is as such-OOC

IC: Will these HEAT and APFSDS rounds work in 105 MM Smoothbore cannons?

Yes, but a 120 mm gun will grant you roughly 100 mm more penetration than a 105 mm gun with HEAT, IDK what improvement it has upon APFSDS...

Mmm, but do you think quantity over quality matters in this case? I mean if you're launching two HEAT 105MM rounds at the same time vs the 120 MM Smoothbore round, who would win?

Mmm, but do you think quantity over quality matters in this case? I mean if you're launching two HEAT 105MM rounds at the same time vs the 120 MM Smoothbore round, who would win?

Probably the 120mm. The recent T-62 upgrade packages apparently have some kind of up armored glacis that can defeat NATO 105mm APDS (so they claim if I remember correctly). The 105mm would really only be effective then if you can hit the baddie from the flank or sides. Personally I'd go with the 120mm, overkill isn't a bad thing. :)

Probably the 120mm. The recent T-62 upgrade packages apparently have some kind of up armored glacis that can defeat NATO 105mm APDS (so they claim if I remember correctly). The 105mm would really only be effective then if you can hit the baddie from the flank or sides. Personally I'd go with the 120mm, overkill isn't a bad thing. :)

Mmm, well we made up our minds early in the production that the tank would either have a cannon larger than 120MM or dual/triple 105 MM cannons. So this is very sensitive, we could always create a new round of HEAT specialized for the Neo-Panzer I's smoothbore 105MM cannons.

Mmm, well we made up our minds early in the production that the tank would either have a cannon larger than 120MM or dual/triple 105 MM cannons. So this is very sensitive, we could always create a new round of HEAT specialized for the Neo-Panzer I's smoothbore 105MM cannons.

How you going to load 3 guns effectively?
Autoloaders aren't that great in tanks, and take up a bit-o-space

ROF increase would be minimal compared to a single autoloading 120 mm, the 3 barrel would also wiegh more and be needlessly complex (compared to just using more tanks, where each gun has nearly unimpeeded traverse [limited only by fear of friendly fire] and are able to train their guns completely independant of each other).

Multi-gun turrets on ships are another matter, there you can add a few thousand tons and toss a whole platoon inside (or equally massive autoloaders) a turret to load the guns, and you'll get no complaints (since who needs a gun bigger than 20"??? But everyone wants a faster shooting battleship...). This is done is mostly done to conserve valuble deck space, since turret barbetts impinge upon a ship very much.

I suggest single mounts of whatever your biggest/most powerful yet still practical anti-tank gun for this tank.
-------
I'm hoping the eLRA issue died...
Once and for all...
A few proffessional welders had a laugh about the concept though... they had to take a while to recompose themselves. These aren't high school kids, these are grown men and women who either weld for a living, or plan on welding for a living with ages ranging between 55 and 17 years old.

It was decided that it would take an awful lot of electricity to melt 20 kg of copper wire instantaniously with electricity (that is the mass of an entire standard size [for Semi-automated] weld metal spool for GMAW), and then figure how many calories would be needed to turn that into a gas... and then figure it was more than enough to melt a 3" diameter hole into 12" of face hardened steel plate.

And do considerable damage to the 'contact tip' or outer armor plate.

Doing this with a semi-auto GMAW/C setup would've killed the worker, and Automated welders get expensive and difficult to replace (plus, how could I explain that I just trashed a multi-milion dollar piece of equipment that was worth more than me (from the company's perspective).

So no, I'm not going to go out and 'test' this eLRA design...
At least not a full scale test, rather than 3" diameter cone, I'll use .035" copper coated mild steel wire,, and instead of excess of 3,000 m/s, it'll only go 400 inches/minute (max power for a MiG welding unit), and just for the sake of keeping my job, I'll keep the voltage at a nice low 18 volts (any lower and the wire will 'stub' or remain solid and push the 'gun' away from the piece [IE no melting/boiling of the metal whatsoever])

It cut through 3/4" of steel plate (the thickest piece of scrap I could find)... And I applied less force upon it than 1 pound/in^2, wire expended was about 15 seconds of 'burn time'...
10 foot long piece of .035" wire cuts 3/4" of steel at 400 amps...
10 foot long cone of 3" average diameter cuts a heck of a lot more at over 1,200,000,000 amps (anything less and you'd fail to even melt the penetrator)...

And keep that eLRA gunk off my HT-101s!!! I figured it would take the better part of a weekend to sufficiently charge the plates with their engines though, and that was with the rather nsane powerplant that produced over 200 BHP/ton...

Afterwards I knocked it down to 50 HP/ton, since eLRA just didn't see to work, and at such power rates, the tank'll still fly through combat faster than a T-84... Might shred it own treads though...

Have you ever thought that adding power (in the form of heat) to the penetrator is a bad thing?
Since it takes as many calories to weaken steel by 50% to 75% as it does to melt the same amount of copper... And steel would heat electricaly up faster than the copper since it is a stronger reistor.

*pulls out shovel, and waits for the clergyman to read eLRA their final rights before burial.*

How you going to load 3 guns effectively?
Autoloaders aren't that great in tanks, and take up a bit-o-space

ROF increase would be minimal compared to a single autoloading 120 mm, the 3 barrel would also wiegh more and be needlessly complex (compared to just using more tanks, where each gun has nearly unimpeeded traverse [limited only by fear of friendly fire] and are able to train their guns completely independant of each other).

Multi-gun turrets on ships are another matter, there you can add a few thousand tons and toss a whole platoon inside (or equally massive autoloaders) a turret to load the guns, and you'll get no complaints (since who needs a gun bigger than 20"??? But everyone wants a faster shooting battleship...). This is done is mostly done to conserve valuble deck space, since turret barbetts impinge upon a ship very much.

I suggest single mounts of whatever your biggest/most powerful yet still practical anti-tank gun for this tank.
-------
I'm hoping the eLRA issue died...
Once and for all...
A few proffessional welders had a laugh about the concept though... they had to take a while to recompose themselves. These aren't high school kids, these are grown men and women who either weld for a living, or plan on welding for a living with ages ranging between 55 and 17 years old.

It was decided that it would take an awful lot of electricity to melt 20 kg of copper wire instantaniously with electricity (that is the mass of an entire standard size [for Semi-automated] weld metal spool for GMAW), and then figure how many calories would be needed to turn that into a gas... and then figure it was more than enough to melt a 3" diameter hole into 12" of face hardened steel plate.

And do considerable damage to the 'contact tip' or outer armor plate.

Doing this with a semi-auto GMAW/C setup would've killed the worker, and Automated welders get expensive and difficult to replace (plus, how could I explain that I just trashed a multi-milion dollar piece of equipment that was worth more than me (from the company's perspective).

So no, I'm not going to go out and 'test' this eLRA design...
At least not a full scale test, rather than 3" diameter cone, I'll use .035" copper coated mild steel wire,, and instead of excess of 3,000 m/s, it'll only go 400 inches/minute (max power for a MiG welding unit), and just for the sake of keeping my job, I'll keep the voltage at a nice low 18 volts (any lower and the wire will 'stub' or remain solid and push the 'gun' away from the piece [IE no melting/boiling of the metal whatsoever])

It cut through 3/4" of steel plate (the thickest piece of scrap I could find)... And I applied less force upon it than 1 pound/in^2, wire expended was about 15 seconds of 'burn time'...
10 foot long piece of .035" wire cuts 3/4" of steel at 400 amps...
10 foot long cone of 3" average diameter cuts a heck of a lot more at over 1,200,000,000 amps (anything less and you'd fail to even melt the penetrator)...

And keep that eLRA gunk off my HT-101s!!! I figured it would take the better part of a weekend to sufficiently charge the plates with their engines though, and that was with the rather nsane powerplant that produced over 200 BHP/ton...

Afterwards I knocked it down to 50 HP/ton, since eLRA just didn't see to work, and at such power rates, the tank'll still fly through combat faster than a T-84... Might shred it own treads though...

Have you ever thought that adding power (in the form of heat) to the penetrator is a bad thing?
Since it takes as many calories to weaken steel by 50% to 75% as it does to melt the same amount of copper... And steel would heat electricaly up faster than the copper since it is a stronger reistor.

*pulls out shovel, and waits for the clergyman to read eLRA their final rights before burial.*

Taking this into consideration, we sadly reside the Neo-Panzer I to be a single gun, 120 smoothbore round. We have nearly completed the intergration of the Challenger II's armour into the Leopard II main body. It will also not have an auto-loader.

These are the rough estimates of the final product:
Crew:: 3
Dimensions----
Weight: 56 metric tonnes
Length: 7.7m
Width: 3.7m
Height: 3m
Performance----
Maximum Speed: 82km/hr
Maximum Range: 700km
Systems----
Powerplant: MTU MB 873 multi-fuel, 1,500hp
Transmission: RENK HSWL 354
Gunner's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics EMES 15 with thermal channel and laser rangefinder
Commander's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics PERI-R17A2 with thermal channel
Armament
Guns 1 x Rheinmetall 120mm L55 smoothbore gun
1 x FN Minimi Standart Model with modified barrel and configurations to load and fire a 7.92x57mm NATO round
1 x 7.62mm anti-aircraft machine gun

bumpago?

Up the crew to 4...

Unless you want tanks w/o commanders or tanks w/o gunners...

Alternative caliber:
Russian 122 mm
127 mm (5") Naval gun

Larger calibers to consider for later (auto loader or two loaders recommended):

152 mm Russian
155 mm
203 mm (8")

After that and you begin to enter the realm of SHBTs...

Descriptions not good, but I'm sure this link'll provide enough info.
http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art82.htm
Metal Arc Cutting (MAC)is "an arc cutting process which severs metals by melting them with the heat of an arc between a metal electrode and the base metal." When covered electrodes are used it is known as shielded metal arc cutting (SMAC).

The equipment required is identical to that required for shielded metal arc welding. When the heat input into the base metal exceeds the heat losses the molten metal pool becomes large and unmanageable. If the base metal is not too thick, the molten metal will fall away and create a hole or cut. The cut produced by the shielded metal arc cutting process is rough and is not normally used for preparing parts for welding. The metal arc cutting process using covered electrodes is used only where a small cutting job is required and other means are not available for the purpose.

Plasma Arc Cutting (PAC) is an arc cutting process which severs metal by melting a localized area with a constricted arc and removing the molten material with a high-velocity jet of hot ionized gas.

Heat input at the plasma arc is so high and the heat losses cannot carry the heat away quickly enough so that the metal is melted and a hole is formed. The plasma gas at a high velocity helps cut through the metal.

Taking this into consideration, we sadly reside the Neo-Panzer I to be a single gun, 120 smoothbore round. We have nearly completed the intergration of the Challenger II's armour into the Leopard II main body. It will also not have an auto-loader.

These are the rough estimates of the final product:
Crew:: 3
Dimensions----
Weight: 56 metric tonnes
Length: 7.7m
Width: 3.7m
Height: 3m
Performance----
Maximum Speed: 82km/hr
Maximum Range: 700km
Systems----
Powerplant: MTU MB 873 multi-fuel, 1,500hp
Transmission: RENK HSWL 354
Gunner's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics EMES 15 with thermal channel and laser rangefinder
Commander's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics PERI-R17A2 with thermal channel
Armament
Guns 1 x Rheinmetall 120mm L55 smoothbore gun
1 x FN Minimi Standart Model with modified barrel and configurations to load and fire a 7.92x57mm NATO round
1 x 7.62mm anti-aircraft machine gun

So basiclaly what you have here is a slightly lighter leo 2? The Challenger 2s armour is anythign but light, light for its effectiveness yes but not all that light, a tank doesn't weight over 60tons if it has light weight armour.
Really an L55 120mm gun, while king of the hill in RL, isn't going to cut the NS mustard, you really need something more: either a bigger gun such as 140mm or a 120mm gun with more power behind it, either by using a "magnum" (i.e. over sized) propellant charge or a novel propulsion system which in the NS MT arena boils down to Electro Thermal Chemical (ETC) propulsions.
If you wanted an off the shelf gun then i suppose i could supply my G563C 123mm/60calibre ETC gun system.

On the issue of crew, for 3 crew you need an autoloader.
As for secondary weapons 7.92x57mm is 7.9/8mm Muaser, not a NATO round i woudla ssume you ment 7.62x51mm NATO, also there is a minimi version for 7.62 called the MK46 but to be honest on a tank you should be scrimping and trying to save a few kgs on the machine so you would be aswell going for a decent GPMG like the M240/FN MAG or a 7.62mm chain gun like the EX-41/L94A1 on the challenger 2.

So basiclaly what you have here is a slightly lighter leo 2? The Challenger 2s armour is anythign but light, light for its effectiveness yes but not all that light, a tank doesn't weight over 60tons if it has light weight armour.
Really an L55 120mm gun, while king of the hill in RL, isn't going to cut the NS mustard, you really need something more: either a bigger gun such as 140mm or a 120mm gun with more power behind it, either by using a "magnum" (i.e. over sized) propellant charge or a novel propulsion system which in the NS MT arena boils down to Electro Thermal Chemical (ETC) propulsions.
If you wanted an off the shelf gun then i suppose i could supply my G563C 123mm/60calibre ETC gun system.

On the issue of crew, for 3 crew you need an autoloader.
As for secondary weapons 7.92x57mm is 7.9/8mm Muaser, not a NATO round i woudla ssume you ment 7.62x51mm NATO, also there is a minimi version for 7.62 called the MK46 but to be honest on a tank you should be scrimping and trying to save a few kgs on the machine so you would be aswell going for a decent GPMG like the M240/FN MAG or a 7.62mm chain gun like the EX-41/L94A1 on the challenger 2.



And we've been asking for a higher cannon caliber but no one replied, so we are happy have the G563C 123mm ETC gun system. And it will be 4 crew.



As for the 7.92x57mm I realised that is was the Mauser 8mm but I believed, at that time, that it had a NATO designation of 7.92x57mm. We like belgium guns so we'll go with the FN MAG.

Prototype Statics:

These are the rough estimates of the final product:
Crew:: 4
Dimensions----
Weight: 72 metric tonnes
Length: 7.7m
Width: 3.7m
Height: 3m
Performance----
Maximum Speed: 79km/hr
Maximum Range: 650km
Systems----
Powerplant: MTU MB 873 multi-fuel, 1,500hp
Transmission: RENK HSWL 354
Gunner's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics EMES 15 with thermal channel and laser rangefinder
Commander's Sight: Rheinmetall defence electronics PERI-R17A2 with thermal channel
Armament----
Guns 1 x G563C 123mm ETC gun system
1 x FN MAG Standart Model with modified barrel and configurations to load and fire a 7.92x57mm NATO round
1 x 7.62mm anti-aircraft machine gun

Updated stats on front page, added progress reports to front page. Still looking for a larger main gun.

We Need A Heavier Cannooonnnn!!!

Try a 130 or 135mm ETC cannon.

Also look in to:
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg26-e.htm

Try a 130 or 135mm ETC cannon.

Also look in to:
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg26-e.htm


Just type in 135mm ETC Cannon?

Just type in 135mm ETC Cannon?

Sure. Most MBT's of major players in the game have 120mmETC, 125mmETC, or 130mmETC

OOC: Thank you.

IC: After years of contemplation the Neo-Panzer I-2a is up for sale at the cost of 23 Million USD!

OCC: You should probably adjust for the weight though.

Did, look at it :D Increased the engines size so that I could keep the speed, and enlarged the hull.

Did, look at it :D Increased the engines size so that I could keep the speed, and enlarged the hull.

:). Good Job. Look forward to your version of the Tiger II. I'll help with that.

TY, I think i'm going to true to limit the eletronics and try and make an Anti-EMP shield, also mount a 140 MM Smoothbore cannon... Lol, possible make a another version of it with a few anti-tank guns.

TY, I think i'm going to true to limit the eletronics and try and make an Anti-EMP shield, also mount a 140 MM Smoothbore cannon... Lol, possible make a another version of it with a few anti-tank guns.

try two 200mm cannons for the Tiger ;) Thats what the Bemonth Two has.

Nah, I believe in number over powers, im going to try to keep it under 35 million, lol

Nah, I believe in number over powers, im going to try to keep it under 35 million, lol

:(

Lol, one 200 mm?

Lol, one 200 mm?

reasonable.

Ok, but won't size be a problem now?

Ok, but won't size be a problem now?

This isnt a MBT, it would be a SHBT

??

Anyways we will need to make an anti-EMP system, I have an idea for it. Should we discuss it via TG or on this?

??

Anyways we will need to make an anti-EMP system, I have an idea for it. Should we discuss it via TG or on this?

Your Choice. SHBT= Super Heavy Battle Tank

Well, I want it to be accepted, but if it is then more people will steal the idea...

Faraday armouring?

Faraday armouring?

how would that work, thouge?

Ok, I was thinking three parts to the armour. The outer would be titanium, the second layer would be the Faraday substance and the third will be a coating of titanium or something.

Ok, I was thinking three parts to the armour. The outer would be titanium, the second layer would be the Faraday substance and the third will be a coating of titanium or something.

Something like that. Most Modern Tanks have 5 layers of Armor. For example, the first layer would be Non-Explosive reactive armor, Titanium honeycomb, Depleted Uranium, Faraday Cage, and the Kevlar infused NBC protection. Once we get a basic design down, it could go up in the Draftroom.

Alright, understood every-bit except... the draftroom, lol. Ok, well I was thinking of a 221mm Smoothbore cannon, a little much?

Alright, understood every-bit except... the draftroom, lol. Ok, well I was thinking of a 221mm Smoothbore cannon, a little much?

The Draftroom is where all the designers go to share their work. You could get feedback from them. Before we go to the SHBT, lets created the Panzer II, which should include more electronics and the same main gun, but include a 15.5mm machine gun, and the new armor scheme, and show it to the draftroom.

do you have MSN so we can talk better?

http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?act=idx <<< that's the draftroom, register and then wait to be confirmed. And a 221mm gun is much much too big for a tank this size.

Alright... where's the draft room? Ok, ty

The Draftroom is where all the designers go to share their work. You could get feedback from them. Before we go to the SHBT, lets created the Panzer II, which should include more electronics and the same main gun, but include a 15.5mm machine gun, and the new armor scheme, and show it to the draftroom.

do you have MSN so we can talk better?

I kind of got MSN, i'll TRY to get in now. Ok i'm in

I kind of got MSN, i'll TRY to get in now. Ok i'm in
my email is counterstrikefreak266@hotmail.com

Sorry, but I'm of no use on NS draft (went a lil crazy when they endorsed nuking terrorists)

A farraday cage is just an electrically conductive box, with holes no bigger than the wavelength it is supposed to keep out (or any resonant frequencies).

And titanium, though hard, is also very very brittle in cold weather, and doen't take rapid heating very well (causes cracking).

It also doesn't absorb fragments too well.
A high brendel hardness plate on the outside, with a high tinsel backing plate would be ideal at preventing a penetrating round from causing much damage (since it keeps the hull from shattering like glass [as some french tanks did in WW2 (some blame it upon rivetted hulls)].

Sorry, but I'm of no use on NS draft (went a lil crazy when they endorsed nuking terrorists)

A farraday cage is just an electrically conductive box, with holes no bigger than the wavelength it is supposed to keep out (or any resonant frequencies).

And titanium, though hard, is also very very brittle in cold weather, and doen't take rapid heating very well (causes cracking).

It also doesn't absorb fragments too well.
A high brendel hardness plate on the outside, with a high tinsel backing plate would be ideal at preventing a penetrating round from causing much damage (since it keeps the hull from shattering like glass [as some french tanks did in WW2 (some blame it upon rivetted hulls)].

Do you have an MSN so we can talk about it better. Were working out the details now. Having trouble of RHA values.

Hurtful may recieve a 50% discount and TPF will recieve a 70% Discount.

Titanium is also the 'nonconsumable' electrode for TiG welding, but it still gets eaten away, and you can snap it with your hands, like breaking a cracker/cookie.

So I guess it would be the most suitable material for building eLRA out of... It also provides some performance advantages over steel, but service life is crappy, send it doesn't take bending, warping, or dynamic torque very well.

Non-Explosive Ractive Armors, such as spaced compartments filled with loose ceramics, tend to perform about as well as ERA but is reuasbe.

You're getting a 50% discount if you can tell me what I should have :-p

(Using my development of the HT-101 for example only, not as a suggestion)

Well.. the HT-101, was designed to be lightwieght during transport, so I developed it to be able to use dirt and rubble shoveled into 'storage compartments' along the sides to act as NeRA, similar to the differance between shooting an empty metal bucket and one filled with sand... or, mass and time permiting, ceramic/composie armored plating topped with ERA.

Rod armor isn't new, during the 70's they came up with an internal version designed to fracture long rod penetrators... Pretty sure it failed from the looks of what is actually on the market. External slat armor is best against HEAT, causing 50% of the shells to become duds, while the other 50% expolde way too far from the tank. slats should have high tensile strength, and good 'memory'. Internal rods are not recomended.

A 45 degree angled shot will effectively double the armor it must penetrate, this effect is exponential, and at 60 or 70 degrees from perpindicular, it is 6 times the actual perpendicular RHAe. I used a refferance book at a library when figuring out increased effectivenes for angling (these figures I'm giving are off memory and may be inaccurate), and used a 3 dimensional drafting program to work out the shot angles against my armor.

A skirt would be useful to protect tracks and suspension, as this has historicaly been the weak spot of a tank, since a .50 BMG or hand grenade can wreck it (unless using SHBT grade armored tracks, which I never understood).

Also, I'd like to know what kind of fightin you had in mind for this Neo-Panzer, is it a Recon tank, a raider, amphib, airborne, main battle, Tank destroyer, Assault tank, or heavy tank?

Terrain is also important.
Do you expect tanks t engage at long or short ranges?
How fast do they need to be? (tactical and strategic)
How deep should they be able to go inside enemy teritory?
How well atre they to be supported by other units (infantry, artillery, air support)?
=====
Guesstimate 'ideal' armor
1st: ERA integrated block plates
2nd: 2 ply, bias, 14 ga corragated sheet metal (I have my reasons for suggesting this)*
3rd: NeRA chambers
4th: Chobam armor reinforced with DU rods
5th: Kevlar spall liner impregnated with 'liquid armor' solution
6th: Faraday cage (copper clad mild steel) with uncoated kevlar insulation covering (nearly airtight)

*1st ply runs ////
2nd ply runs \\\\\
Going to be difficult to achive anything less than 45 degrees from perpandulcular impact... which then deflects the shot around like a pinball machine, corrogated metal is also highly resistant to metyal fatigue, as proven by the Ju-52 over Spain, and many British bomb shelters... small arms fire would generally fail to penetrate.

If need be, you can fill in the gaps on layer 2 with sand... proofing it for awhile against .50 caliber shells, saving your NeRA chambers for the bigger stuff...

(Using my development of the HT-101 for example only, not as a suggestion)

Well.. the HT-101, was designed to be lightwieght during transport, so I developed it to be able to use dirt and rubble shoveled into 'storage compartments' along the sides to act as NeRA, similar to the differance between shooting an empty metal bucket and one filled with sand... or, mass and time permiting, ceramic/composie armored plating topped with ERA.

Rod armor isn't new, during the 70's they came up with an internal version designed to fracture long rod penetrators... Pretty sure it failed from the looks of what is actually on the market. External slat armor is best against HEAT, causing 50% of the shells to become duds, while the other 50% expolde way too far from the tank. slats should have high tensile strength, and good 'memory'. Internal rods are not recomended.

A 45 degree angled shot will effectively double the armor it must penetrate, this effect is exponential, and at 60 or 70 degrees from perpindicular, it is 6 times the actual perpendicular RHAe. I used a refferance book at a library when figuring out increased effectivenes for angling (these figures I'm giving are off memory and may be inaccurate), and used a 3 dimensional drafting program to work out the shot angles against my armor.

A skirt would be useful to protect tracks and suspension, as this has historicaly been the weak spot of a tank, since a .50 BMG or hand grenade can wreck it (unless using SHBT grade armored tracks, which I never understood).

Also, I'd like to know what kind of fightin you had in mind for this Neo-Panzer, is it a Recon tank, a raider, amphib, airborne, main battle, Tank destroyer, Assault tank, or heavy tank?

Terrain is also important.
Do you expect tanks t engage at long or short ranges?
How fast do they need to be? (tactical and strategic)
How deep should they be able to go inside enemy teritory?
How well atre they to be supported by other units (infantry, artillery, air support)?
=====
Guesstimate 'ideal' armor
1st: ERA integrated block plates
2nd: 2 ply, bias, 14 ga corragated sheet metal (I have my reasons for suggesting this)*
3rd: NeRA chambers
4th: Chobam armor reinforced with DU rods
5th: Kevlar spall liner impregnated with 'liquid armor' solution
6th: Faraday cage (copper clad mild steel) with uncoated kevlar insulation covering (nearly airtight)

*1st ply runs ////
2nd ply runs \\\\\
Going to be difficult to achive anything less than 45 degrees from perpandulcular impact... which then deflects the shot around like a pinball machine, corrogated metal is also highly resistant to metyal fatigue, as proven by the Ju-52 over Spain, and many British bomb shelters... small arms fire would generally fail to penetrate.

If need be, you can fill in the gaps on layer 2 with sand... proofing it for awhile against .50 caliber shells, saving your NeRA chambers for the bigger stuff...


This is somewhat similar to what the draftroom is stating. What would the RHA values be?

Ok, I intergrated that with two of our tanks, and I believe the Lang-Panzer I-4C is completed.

1st layer: depends on block size and angle, generally kills 75% effectiveness from CE weapons, and might break a KE rod. One time use per block, bigger blocks do more, but offer less multi-hit protection, and are set off by large rifles.

2nd: About 13 mm RHAe plus x2 angle modifier, so about 26 mm RHAe.
Adding sand would increase this figure to about 40 mm RHAe until the sand leaks out the bullet holes

3rd: depends, but generally adds 150 to 500 mm RHAe for 100 to 300 mm of space.

4th: Depends, how thick do you want it? I could just quote the Abrams RHAe, but ypu desserve better...

5th: Kevlar with type III protetion (30 layers) should provide type IV when treated. And should only be used to protect from splinters, not the actual shell.

6th: Faraday cage provides negligable protection, though in this case is used to reinforce the Kevlar while the Kevlar protects the crew from the armor. So I'd say it ranks as type II, and if it does get this far, you'd best be ready to die.

Found it, agian... (http://www.niistali.ru/science/secure_en.htm)
Another link, for angles (http://www.tank-net.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t2379.html)

7th Layer? I never wanted the Faraday Cage to be the last line of defence anyway.

7th Layer? I never wanted the Faraday Cage to be the last line of defence anyway.

It generally is, since you don't want many big holes in it when someone gets a massive EMF nearby...

EMP tends to screw cages over, but they should hold pretty well.

And as noted, after layer 5, you run into trouble.

Layer 4 is actually 3 or more layers in itself

ahhh, ok that's good. I need to figure out the RHAe though

I recenly asked a friendabout what was going on in the draftroom, apparently there is a second discussion I'm not taking part in.

I don't dissagree with Mac's opinion and statement about my proposal for Gent's armor.

Though I'd rather have such statements that are in some way directed towards me placed where I can actually see them.

And with some luck, learn something from it.
Or I can be kept in the dark.

I also recall hearing about discussion about the cost of DU reinforcement of composite armor.

If you have trhe resources, and you are willing to shell out billions for something that provides minor improvement over tungsten (and has a tendancy to catch fire fiercer than aluminum), then go for it.

I recenly asked a friendabout what was going on in the draftroom, apparently there is a second discussion I'm not taking part in.

I don't dissagree with Mac's opinion and statement about my proposed armor.

Though I'd rather have such statements that are in some way directed towards me placed where I can actually see them.

And with some luck, learn something from it.

Or I can be kept in the dark.

I'm sorry for not inviting you. It's there. Feel Free to join in.

Sadly, he can't. He was banned from the draftroom, for some rather inflammatory comments about horses, IIRC.

Sadly, he can't. He was banned from the draftroom, for some rather inflammatory comments about horses, IIRC.

huh. That's too bad. Can he at least read them?

huh. That's too bad. Can he at least read them?

Nope... Currently relying on a public computer that I have rather limited (read illegal) access to.
I'll just call it 'Enza'...

So every time I try reading it, I risk getting into a very large amount of trouble...
OOC of course, ICly I'll just dissapear without a trace like Alidor or Chitzeland...

All because of my pro-horse, anti-nuke, and becuase I considered the obscenely large SHBTs a bit larger than practical on any battlefield...
(a bit silly, but true)
So to keep myself from going into a rant, I'll just ignore the fact that I have those viewpoints and do what I can. (I did give some halfway decent advice during my 3 months there, so long as it didn't involve nuking civies, tanks or horses...)

And as a note, if you have any weapons described only on NS draft, and plan on attacking me with them, I'll request a FULL copy of its development before accepting their existance.
*As such, any similarities between my weapons and weaopns talked of on NS draft are purely coincedental

That or Sarz lets me at least read the NS draft pages...

Currently:
Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

The error returned was:

Sorry, you are not permitted to use this board

Oddly, even the help files are blocked... :lol:

Feel free in trying to talk sensable levels of moderation into the mods...
(Whatever good that'll do...)

Nope... Currently relying on a public computer that I have rather limited (read illegal) access to.
I'll just call it 'Enza'...

So every time I try reading it, I risk getting into a very large amount of trouble...
OOC of course, ICly I'll just dissapear without a trace like Alidor or Chitzeland...

All because of my pro-horse, anti-nuke, and becuase I considered the obscenely large SHBTs a bit larger than practical on any battlefield...
(a bit silly, but true)
So to keep myself from going into a rant, I'll just ignore the fact that I have those viewpoints and do what I can. (I did give some halfway decent advice during my 3 months there, so long as it didn't involve nuking civies, tanks or horses...)

And as a note, if you have any weapons described only on NS draft, and plan on attacking me with them, I'll request a FULL copy of its development before accepting their existance.
*As such, any similarities between my weapons and weaopns talked of on NS draft are purely coincedental

That or Sarz lets me at least read the NS draft pages...

Currently:


Oddly, even the help files are blocked... :lol:

Feel free in trying to talk sensable levels of moderation into the mods...
(Whatever good that'll do...)


Huh. I'm Sorry.

Huh. I'm Sorry.

Crap happens...

[EDIT: Ranting ahead, please don't ban me for this, if you have strong views regarding NS draft, I suggest you skip it]
It has been 'whited out' to make this easier, my apologies if you actually wanted to read it

Nevermind that others were pretty much posting the same things that got me banned by the time I was banned or shortly thereafter... With no apparent moderation action upon the other posters.

I also find it odd that they could kick a person in less than 3 days because it generally took a week for Sarz to give official warnings, or notices.

As such, I only figured out exactly what had me banned after hopping on enza.
And finding a rather pointless single post off topic rant describing what I was doing while on 'vacation' from the draftroom inserted into a thread 'about yourself'.

Shortly after a mod responded, which was the same mod that gave me most of my warnings, and noted that I seemed to fixate on the issues that had gotten me banned. (I only saw this post after borrowing someone elses's computer, as TGs and E-mails failed to get a response [for a brief time I thought the forum simply went down, or I had typed the wrong password])
WELL DUH. Getting banned without knowing why the mods actually banned you, tends to make you focus on why you were banned in hopes that you can figure out what it was you did, and why, and how to avoid it again.

Over here we reffer to it as a 'self-induced guilt-trip', and does involve at least one 'venting of rage' post, which is generally ignored, but in my case, wasn't.

And nevermind that until I was told on the site, I had no clue what 'trolling' or 'gravedigging' looked like, or that they were an offense, plus I must have mised the 'No argueing' sticky, since I saw a number of arguments already there without any problems.

So, yep, I'm no longer angry about what I did was wrong (the issues mean nothing now), just that the way it was handled was inconsistant. And that one warning was caused by trying to respond (cooperatively) to a suggestion/warning, albeit incorrectly.

Crap happens...

[EDIT: Ranting ahead, please don't ban me for this, if you have strong views regarding NS draft, I suggest you skip it]
It has been 'whited out' to make this easier, my apologies if you actually wanted to read it

Nevermind that others were pretty much posting the same things that got me banned by the time I was banned or shortly thereafter... With no apparent moderation action upon the other posters.

I also find it odd that they could kick a person in less than 3 days because it generally took a week for Sarz to give official warnings, or notices.

As such, I only figured out exactly what had me banned after hopping on enza.
And finding a rather pointless single post off topic rant describing what I was doing while on 'vacation' from the draftroom inserted into a thread 'about yourself'.

Shortly after a mod responded, which was the same mod that gave me most of my warnings, and noted that I seemed to fixate on the issues that had gotten me banned. (I only saw this post after borrowing someone elses's computer, as TGs and E-mails failed to get a response [for a brief time I thought the forum simply went down, or I had typed the wrong password])
WELL DUH. Getting banned without knowing why the mods actually banned you, tends to make you focus on why you were banned in hopes that you can figure out what it was you did, and why, and how to avoid it again.

Over here we reffer to it as a 'self-induced guilt-trip', and does involve at least one 'venting of rage' post, which is generally ignored, but in my case, wasn't.

And nevermind that until I was told on the site, I had no clue what 'trolling' or 'gravedigging' looked like, or that they were an offense, plus I must have mised the 'No argueing' sticky, since I saw a number of arguments already there without any problems.

So, yep, I'm no longer angry about what I did was wrong (the issues mean nothing now), just that the way it was handled was inconsistant. And that one warning was caused by trying to respond (cooperatively) to a suggestion/warning, albeit incorrectly.


Rant all you want. I'll listen :)

That's nice (I guess)...

I took the time to take another look at the NS draft topic (lively little thing)
And address a few issues:
1st:
My choice of wording "NERA Chambers" to more accurately describe an armor with a cellular filler, similar, compartmentalized so that the chances of hitting a spent plate is decreased.
For brief but informative info (http://www.niistali.ru/science/secure_en.htm)
These can use a number of fillers, which I shall address seprately.

2nd:
Mexas, and the fascination to use it as if it describes the most revolutionary idea in tank armor since ERA, it isn't. All MEXAS means is a fancy form of bolt on modular armor, nothing really new, it is not in itself a form of armor per se; but rather a type of armor scheme.

3rd:
Do you want my help or not?
I'd rather not waste my time and take pointless OOC risks to give suggestions that will just as easily be made by the draftroom, and I do not intend to try matching wits with the whole NS draft, especially if they plan on asking me questions on a site I cannot view and expect me to magicly respond to them.

So if you don't want/need my help, say so, because I have enough trouble with my life the way it is, I don't need to be expelled for logging onto an admin's computer and illegally downloading the NS draft pages onto a zip drive so I can view them at home. (Since loitering on an admin's computer tends to attract unwanted attention)

4th:
Back to the issue of fillers...
All the filler has to be is something that will flow around the projectile upon impact, dust, granuals, or liquids work.

The Merkerva uses diesel fuel, for example (some mistakenly believe that it is to cool down the penetrator, and reduces penetration that way.. you know who you are :p).

Another option, is to store it as a single, hard (and inherently brittle) solid, such as spent space shuttle heat tiles (just spewing ideas), this way, the penetrator has to first break up the slab (or bounce off) and then has to contend with the granuals it forms. This form has another advantage, that by etching the inside face of the slab, partial penetration causes the slab to squeeze upon the penetrator, slowing it down until it shatters and acts as cellular filler. (see spall type atrmor)

A spall type armor reinforced by a titanuim mesh behind it, and placed outside of the NERA, would be benificial to the tank.

5th:
Farraday cages, NS RPers will generally shout me down for this, but EMP generally screws over any protection ypu gave it, thankfully, initial EMP is short ranged, and most of the damage caused on virtual models are by radiating EMF, which can be shielded against. Sielding the whole tank is usefull (like when working on a piece of electronics during a surprise EMP raid, or carrying a piece of non-hardened electronics), this may also save in wieght since now you have full protection for everything, the downside is that armor damage will deteriorate this effectiveness. Individual EMP hardening allows for everything to be self-sufficiently protected, but takes up space inside the tank and adds more mass, reducing this protection puts equipment at risk of electrical failure and interfereance.

(Nothing like driving home when you find that your alternator is fried and your battery is running dead, headlights are generally the first to go, followed by the dash lights, then instrument readings get a little funny, engine still runs...)

Suggestion: overall Farraday, with redundant cages for EMF sensitive equipment.
(Radios, RADAR, FCS, LRF)

6th:
Cost of DU and titanium.

Titanium generally needs to be worked in an atmosphere of inrt gas, otherwise it is extremely brittle, the rarity of such workplaces can be summarised in one statement:

America has only one such facory, in massachusets I believe, and workers are limited to 20 minute oxygen supplies (unless attched to a wall mounted hose), the factory only has 4 lanes. And is the largest and most sophisticated metalurgical plant in the world.

Work aound depleted uranium is limited to 2 hours a day per worker, and they also require a breathing apparatus, all welding stubs must be catalouged and recovered (heaven help you if it goes down an air vent).

Failure to abide by these regulations either resaults in low quality products or dead skilled workers...

I want your help! Also, to view NS draftroom at school. Peacefire.org, works like a dream.

I want your help! Also, to view NS draftroom at school. Peacefire.org, works like a dream.

Doesn't help in my case, internet is only wired to admin computers...
And besides, their internet connections themselves are password protected by room...

They don't block NS draft...
NS Draft blocks me...

Anyhow, the question was directed towards NS draft as a whole...

(even AFTER leaving NS draft, they STILL find ways of torturing me...)

Doesn't help in my case, internet is only wired to admin computers...
And besides, their internet connections themselves are password protected by room...

They don't block NS draft...
NS Draft blocks me...

Anyhow, the question was directed towards NS draft as a whole...

=[

Hurtful Thoughts: This is not the place to complain about policy on other sites. It is certainly not the place to talk about bypassing your access bans from those sites. Give it a rest. Now.

Hurtful Thoughts: This is not the place to complain about policy on other sites. It is certainly not the place to talk about bypassing your access bans from those sites. Give it a rest. Now.

Alright.

Lol, Hurtful... Lol. That wasn't really smart to say >.> Not that i'm calling you un-intelligent, just saying, that particular action wasn't your smartest. Anyways, yes we like your help, but our next project needs some thinking. Possible a HBT or SHBT.

As a side note, I'd think that the tank as a whole would most likely work as a Faraday cage anyway, unless you blow some pretty big holes in it (in which case, it's likely to be dead anyway). This would especially be the case with spaced armor.

Lol, Hurtful... Lol. That wasn't really smart to say >.> Not that i'm calling you un-intelligent, just saying, that particular action wasn't your smartest. Anyways, yes we like your help, but our next project needs some thinking. Possible a HBT or SHBT.

Pretty much it was admiting that I can't see the NS draft, and trying to set down guidelines in the event of a problem (as a rather considerable number of them were encountered when helping develop you Neo-panzer), without having to find a temporyary (and tempermental) work around their IP ban.

It just looks and sounds crazy, until you think about what it would require for me not to make-believe that NS Draft dissapeared into thin air (which would entail doing more of what the mods are currently discouraging, and may eventually lead to furtther banning).

Still trying to make sense of this post though...
Mind If I ask what happened? Oh and we need to talk about something, come here and register http://z8.invisionfree.com/EVIL_Alliance_Bloc/index.php?act=idx

Weapon developmen?
Alliance advert?
Or something completely unrelated?

We are getting a bit off topic, the issue is your tank, not my OOC problems with the mods on various offsites...

Just has to do with something i noticed on your sigg

And that IS?

Oh, FYI, i think I managed to come up with an eLRA everyone can agree upon, though it does sort of screw over most concepts of eLRA on NS, so please, bear with me on this.

Dang, I just realized something.

Electronic armor...

They never [officially] claimed to MELT or VAPORIZE the penetrator, but rather, DISRUPT it.

There is a very big differance.

I also noticed, that it added a "couple of tons"

At first, I wondered:
"OK, so you've got a couple MW of power stored on two plates, how are you going to keep them charged? Spaced? And what are thes 'couple of tons' from? etc.."

Then it all clicked.
When watching an info-mercial about an ionized air cleaner that pulled dust out of an airstream.

That reminded me of Lorenz Force, the right hand rule, and that the original designer never specified what direction the plate(s) ran.

Simply, yes, it IS 2 plates, but they have 'fins', equally spaced, and intermeshing, most likely running horizontally across the hull.

The fins act as a magnetic field, upon the penetrator's contact of both 'plates', a charge runs through it, and then Lorenz force kicks in, hence the 'needlessly' high voltage (as voltage doesn't heat materials, and copper is a great conductor, and thus would be wasted in an NSized version).

The Lorenz force then exerts a force perpinducular to both the magnetic field lines and the current through the 'wire'. This wattage, though insufficient to melt the wire, is most certainly enough to accelerate the penetrator across the armor plate in a manner similar to ERA.*

And at negligable loss of charge to the 'plates'

Notice, this pretty much makes tandem charge HEAT useless against it...

*by feeding it a constant supply of fresh armor plate, also warps the penetrator a bit...

As for the general public...
http://www.mil-veh.org/archives/02-08/0846.html
Just keep reading and clicking 'Next in thead' until end...

There are views from all angles for this armor, some good and praiseworthy, others are skeptical, others are cynical of the original designers and their honesty to the media.

For some reason, DSTL reminds me of the group of 'inventors' who tried selling Great Britian a 'New Explosive', which was in fact, just RDX utilising the Munroe effect...

The Latican Imperium is looking into making the Neo-Panzer III.