NationStates Jolt Archive

Just though I'd start putting my military machine together so that it can be seen for any RP's what my nation has.

I have a national budget of $362,101,280,970 per annum to spend (at the time of this first post)

I'd like constructive criticism and also any offers for role playing military with my nation.

Thank you.

Just though I'd start putting my military machine together so that it can be seen for any RP's what my nation has.

I have a national budget of $362,101,280,970 per annum to spend (at the time of this first post)

I'd like constructive criticism and also any offers for role playing military with my nation.

Thank you.

Are you an FT or MT nation?

Well things will of course dpend on what you want to do with your military, msot people tend go with a generic power projection based armed forces i.e. largish navy with plentiful carriers and amphibious assault ships. Now this does not siut everyone as many people just want a purely defensive military.

In terms of numbers you could proabably afford to field an armed forces about 3/4 of the size of the RL US.

Do you ahve anythoughts about styles or influences for your armed forces?

I'm modern technology.

I was thinking with the army having a two tier system, with a smaller elite force that would be used for offensive actions (either as part of an attacking force against another nation or to spear head defensive counterattacks/spoilerattacks) backed up by a larger conscripted force that would be used to defend my nation.

So i'm thinking my equipment would be quite good but relitivly simple so that conscripts can be redily trained to use it.

Also I think that the elements that are normally minor supporting parts of the army (artillary, armour, anti aircraft, communications) would be overly large in the regular military as they would be there to support the mainly infantry units of the defensive force.

I was thinking of going with the sweedish amoured vehicle system to supply most of my combat vehicle needs (this gives me everything from mobile command centres to light tanks) I'm also considering using a german self propelled gun with a 100mm gun in a multi purpose turret (this means I can use the same turret in emplaced artillary positions as well as on my naval vessels). As you can probably see I don't have an MBT as such, this is due to the fact that it seems that who wins in tank to tank combat is due to manuvrability and first shot kill capability, add to this the fact that my armed forces will be well equiped to defeat armoured threats with aircraft and also the new MBTLAW developed by the sweedes, I'd rather have the advantage of ease of co-ordination of my amoured forces, ease (and also cheapness) of manufacturing and the ease of supply (fuel, spare parts, etc etc).

On the infantry level I was going to go with the FN2000 as my main infantry weapon with the SAW as my squad support with the 15mm heavy machine gun from FN as a platoon support weapon (so each infantry squad will have 1-2 SAW then each platoon will have a 15mm heavy machine gun squad (in 3's or 2's to be worked out) which is a loverly gun that will chew through armoured personal carriers like paper) and the FN900 sub machine gun (for those who handle support weapons, vehicle crew, pilots, naval boarding parties, supply personel, etc). I was going to use the MBTLAW developed by the sweedes as my infantry portable anti-tank weapon (though if anyone knows of a larger more powerfull/longer ranged system i'd like one for the company level).

For my airforce I was going to use the A-10 as a cheap anti-tank/ground attack aircraft, with the sweedish grupen (might be gripen I really can't spell) as my air superiority fighter as it seems to be supperior to the alternatives (more reliable then the Euro fighter, much cheaper and seemingly more flexable then the F22, outclasses everything else pretty much), i'm considering the tornado as a light bomber/intruder aircraft, I'd also like something to use as a long range anti radiation missile launcher/anti shipping/counter strike aircraft (ideally something that can go a long way quickly carrying a resonable payload of mid/long range missiles).

For transport aircraft I was planning to use a mixture of converted civillian models (think generic airliner used as fast tanker/transport) for fast transport, helicopters (which I would like advice about, i'd like a heavy transport one capable of carrying my mechanised units (not my spg) and some that would act as flying infantry fighting vehicles (for use by the airborne units (which would be airforce but infantry), as well as a few to act as light pop up anti tank units (note not a gunship just a light helicopter that can carry reasonable missile weaponry)) for short/mid range delivery directly into combat and SkyCats (for those of you who don't know they are airships with two envelopes (in a catermaran arangement hense the name) and a transport area in the middle due to the fact that they get lift from their shape they need to carry less gas, they can land anywhere (they suck onto the ground in kinda a reverse hovercraft type way (can be landed more permenantly if ballested either with water or with objects in the transport area)) have virtually no radar signature (you have to be very good/very lucky/know what your looking for (ideally all 3)) can get anywhere in the world in 72 hours, are bullet proof (plus also really hard to damage anyway in anykinda permenant non easily repairable way (also they would just kinda sink gently down unless you blew most of the envelopes)) practically silent, have little heat signature and the largest models proposed will carry 10,000 tons) for heavy/stealth deployment where time isn't really an issue, long ranged patrols and awac/intel/command/communication/countermeasure missions, as well as humanitarian aid missions and general transport (also if you loaded one up with missiles and it had a skeleton crew it would be a very good deterant as it could stay up for months/years carrying a NBC retaliation against agressors.

Naval wise I was thinking a reasonably small trade protection/coastal protection/custams and excise/comerce raider force mainly made up of submarines (diesal electric probably), light surface units, corvettes, light fast carriers with helicopters and VTL air craft, frigates and destroyers, minsweepers/layers, as well as coastal missile/gun units, add to this a naval special forces unit (i'm thinking you declare war on me then they go into action with small teams on freighters (that can be changed so they can look different without huge difficulty) flying neutral or allied colours which would take out shipping (often with limpet mines timed so that the ship has gone by the time they go off and ideally so that the vessel just goes down at sea as most would assume they got hit by a torpedo or a missile which would confuse their intel about your naval dispositions) as well as attacks on coastal defence and shipping peripherals and dropping off agents.

Seems pretty reasonable but this being II we msut have an arguement! or rather i feel like showing off my knwoledge (or lack there of).

I was thinking of going with the sweedish amoured vehicle system to supply most of my combat vehicle needs (this gives me everything from mobile command centres to light tanks)

The CV-90 isn't a bad vehicle (ok, it is well into the "pretty damn good" catagory in RL) and likely will hold its capability fairly well against even the wankiest MT custom job IFV, make sure you use the CV9040 as your IFV.

I'm also considering using a german self propelled gun with a 100mm gun in a multi purpose turret (this means I can use the same turret in emplaced artillary positions as well as on my naval vessels).

I assume you mean 155mm as in the PzH2000/monarch system? 100mm really isn't terribly useful outside of niche roles

As you can probably see I don't have an MBT as such, this is due to the fact that it seems that who wins in tank to tank combat is due to manuvrability and first shot kill capability, add to this the fact that my armed forces will be well equiped to defeat armoured threats with aircraft and also the new MBTLAW developed by the sweedes, I'd rather have the advantage of ease of co-ordination of my amoured forces, ease (and also cheapness) of manufacturing and the ease of supply (fuel, spare parts, etc etc).

You proabably do need some decent heavy armour due to the requirement for soem BIG anti tank weapons to deal with the preonderance of very well armoured Main and heavy battle tanks on NS, really a 120mm ETC or 140mm conventional gun is seen as the base line minimum these days and the low recoil 120mm system carried by the CV90120 likely isn't goign to do the job. MBT-LAW is just that: a Light Assault Weapon with a very short range and in RL is generally backed up by a heavier ATGM system such as MILAN (late model version), BILL 2, Javelin or the Isreali SPIKE family. Aircraft are useful but with decent levels of air defence around a good MBT would remain vital.


For my airforce I was going to use the A-10 as a cheap anti-tank/ground attack aircraft, with the sweedish grupen (might be gripen I really can't spell) as my air superiority fighter as it seems to be supperior to the alternatives (more reliable then the Euro fighter, much cheaper and seemingly more flexable then the F22, outclasses everything else pretty much), i'm considering the tornado as a light bomber/intruder aircraft, I'd also like something to use as a long range anti radiation missile launcher/anti shipping/counter strike aircraft (ideally something that can go a long way quickly carrying a resonable payload of mid/long range missiles).

The spelling is Gripen and you really should avoid comparing it up aginst the likes of EF Typhoon, F-15 Eagle, F-22 Raptor or Su27/30 family as it is a light fighter more directly comparable to the F-16, F-35 Lighting II (JSF), Mirage 2000 or F-18. It is incrediably difficult to talk about reliability of the Typhoon since it has yet to reach full front line service but as an aircraft it is far far more capable than the Gripen and fully of anything a tornado could do, the closest to it is the Rafale. There would be nothing wrong in using both Gripen and Typhoon in a high low mix similar to the USAF F-15/F-16 mix.

For transport aircraft I was planning to use a mixture of converted civillian models (think generic airliner used as fast tanker/transport) for fast transport, helicopters (which I would like advice about, i'd like a heavy transport one capable of carrying my mechanised units (not my spg) and some that would act as flying infantry fighting vehicles (for use by the airborne units (which would be airforce but infantry), as well as a few to act as light pop up anti tank units (note not a gunship just a light helicopter that can carry reasonable missile weaponry)) for short/mid range delivery directly into combat and SkyCats (for those of you who don't know they are airships with two envelopes (in a catermaran arangement hense the name) and a transport area in the middle due to the fact that they get lift from their shape they need to carry less gas, they can land anywhere (they suck onto the ground in kinda a reverse hovercraft type way (can be landed more permenantly if ballested either with water or with objects in the transport area)) have virtually no radar signature (you have to be very good/very lucky/know what your looking for (ideally all 3)) can get anywhere in the world in 72 hours, are bullet proof (plus also really hard to damage anyway in anykinda permenant non easily repairable way (also they would just kinda sink gently down unless you blew most of the envelopes)) practically silent, have little heat signature and the largest models proposed will carry 10,000 tons) for heavy/stealth deployment where time isn't really an issue, long ranged patrols and awac/intel/command/communication/countermeasure missions, as well as humanitarian aid missions and general transport (also if you loaded one up with missiles and it had a skeleton crew it would be a very good deterant as it could stay up for months/years carrying a NBC retaliation against agressors.

A 30ton payload helicopter doesn;t exist in RL, but there are soem SN custom job VTOLs such as my Ultra Roc (http://z8.invisionfree.com/Crookfur_Arms/index.php?showtopic=21) which do have such capability.
Really the flying APC style helicopter is a tricky one, as you have 2 distinct types: the medium utility helo like the UH-60 blackhawk or the flying IFV like the Mi-24 Hind. Ultimately The medium utility helo has proved more succesful (or at least popular at the moment) with most Hinds being relagated to pure gunships rofles, for which they aren't terribly well suited. For an AT helo you really want a proper gunship, light and medium helicopters equipped for the AT role haven't proven hugely succesful, of course your gunship doesn;t have to be as large as the apache but it should at least have equal sensor capability.

As for Skycat, the 72 hours thing might be a bit optimystic if you use the size scale of the "NS earth"


Turnign to your navy it seems fine for a purely defensive force, althohgh i would suggest making sure you have a at least oen class capable of mounting seriosuly heavy antishipping weaposn to help deal with the battleship scourge of NS.

As for Q-ships, they have thier roles but with the numebr of itchy trigger fingers, agressive escort/patrol forces and really really huge freighters on NS they might not be hugely effective on the open seas.

All in all it seems pretty well thought out and i hope you can excuse my lecturing

Seems pretty reasonable but this being II we msut have an arguement! or rather i feel like showing off my knwoledge (or lack there of).

I was thinking of going with the sweedish amoured vehicle system to supply most of my combat vehicle needs (this gives me everything from mobile command centres to light tanks)

The CV-90 isn't a bad vehicle (ok, it is well into the "pretty damn good" catagory in RL) and likely will hold its capability fairly well against even the wankiest MT custom job IFV, make sure you use the CV9040 as your IFV.

I'm also considering using a german self propelled gun with a 100mm gun in a multi purpose turret (this means I can use the same turret in emplaced artillary positions as well as on my naval vessels).

I assume you mean 155mm as in the PzH2000/monarch system? 100mm really isn't terribly useful outside of niche roles

As you can probably see I don't have an MBT as such, this is due to the fact that it seems that who wins in tank to tank combat is due to manuvrability and first shot kill capability, add to this the fact that my armed forces will be well equiped to defeat armoured threats with aircraft and also the new MBTLAW developed by the sweedes, I'd rather have the advantage of ease of co-ordination of my amoured forces, ease (and also cheapness) of manufacturing and the ease of supply (fuel, spare parts, etc etc).

You proabably do need some decent heavy armour due to the requirement for soem BIG anti tank weapons to deal with the preonderance of very well armoured Main and heavy battle tanks on NS, really a 120mm ETC or 140mm conventional gun is seen as the base line minimum these days and the low recoil 120mm system carried by the CV90120 likely isn't goign to do the job. MBT-LAW is just that: a Light Assault Weapon with a very short range and in RL is generally backed up by a heavier ATGM system such as MILAN (late model version), BILL 2, Javelin or the Isreali SPIKE family. Aircraft are useful but with decent levels of air defence around a good MBT would remain vital.


For my airforce I was going to use the A-10 as a cheap anti-tank/ground attack aircraft, with the sweedish grupen (might be gripen I really can't spell) as my air superiority fighter as it seems to be supperior to the alternatives (more reliable then the Euro fighter, much cheaper and seemingly more flexable then the F22, outclasses everything else pretty much), i'm considering the tornado as a light bomber/intruder aircraft, I'd also like something to use as a long range anti radiation missile launcher/anti shipping/counter strike aircraft (ideally something that can go a long way quickly carrying a resonable payload of mid/long range missiles).

The spelling is Gripen and you really should avoid comparing it up aginst the likes of EF Typhoon, F-15 Eagle, F-22 Raptor or Su27/30 family as it is a light fighter more directly comparable to the F-16, F-35 Lighting II (JSF), Mirage 2000 or F-18. It is incrediably difficult to talk about reliability of the Typhoon since it has yet to reach full front line service but as an aircraft it is far far more capable than the Gripen and fully of anything a tornado could do, the closest to it is the Rafale. There would be nothing wrong in using both Gripen and Typhoon in a high low mix similar to the USAF F-15/F-16 mix.

For transport aircraft I was planning to use a mixture of converted civillian models (think generic airliner used as fast tanker/transport) for fast transport, helicopters (which I would like advice about, i'd like a heavy transport one capable of carrying my mechanised units (not my spg) and some that would act as flying infantry fighting vehicles (for use by the airborne units (which would be airforce but infantry), as well as a few to act as light pop up anti tank units (note not a gunship just a light helicopter that can carry reasonable missile weaponry)) for short/mid range delivery directly into combat and SkyCats (for those of you who don't know they are airships with two envelopes (in a catermaran arangement hense the name) and a transport area in the middle due to the fact that they get lift from their shape they need to carry less gas, they can land anywhere (they suck onto the ground in kinda a reverse hovercraft type way (can be landed more permenantly if ballested either with water or with objects in the transport area)) have virtually no radar signature (you have to be very good/very lucky/know what your looking for (ideally all 3)) can get anywhere in the world in 72 hours, are bullet proof (plus also really hard to damage anyway in anykinda permenant non easily repairable way (also they would just kinda sink gently down unless you blew most of the envelopes)) practically silent, have little heat signature and the largest models proposed will carry 10,000 tons) for heavy/stealth deployment where time isn't really an issue, long ranged patrols and awac/intel/command/communication/countermeasure missions, as well as humanitarian aid missions and general transport (also if you loaded one up with missiles and it had a skeleton crew it would be a very good deterant as it could stay up for months/years carrying a NBC retaliation against agressors.

A 30ton payload helicopter doesn;t exist in RL, but there are soem SN custom job VTOLs such as my Ultra Roc (http://z8.invisionfree.com/Crookfur_Arms/index.php?showtopic=21) which do have such capability.
Really the flying APC style helicopter is a tricky one, as you have 2 distinct types: the medium utility helo like the UH-60 blackhawk or the flying IFV like the Mi-24 Hind. Ultimately The medium utility helo has proved more succesful (or at least popular at the moment) with most Hinds being relagated to pure gunships rofles, for which they aren't terribly well suited. For an AT helo you really want a proper gunship, light and medium helicopters equipped for the AT role haven't proven hugely succesful, of course your gunship doesn;t have to be as large as the apache but it should at least have equal sensor capability.

As for Skycat, the 72 hours thing might be a bit optimystic if you use the size scale of the "NS earth"


Turnign to your navy it seems fine for a purely defensive force, althohgh i would suggest making sure you have a at least oen class capable of mounting seriosuly heavy antishipping weaposn to help deal with the battleship scourge of NS.

As for Q-ships, they have thier roles but with the numebr of itchy trigger fingers, agressive escort/patrol forces and really really huge freighters on NS they might not be hugely effective on the open seas.

All in all it seems pretty well thought out and i hope you can excuse my lecturing

Well my army is designed around 2 opptions of war
1. I am attacking another nation:
-first move would be to use naval infiltrator units and air power to neutralise or at least hamper naval peripherals (such as fuel/ammo depo's, command centres, communication facilities and defenses of such locations.
-attack against thair air defence network simulaniously/just after to destroy radar instilations, air defence artillary networks, airfields.
-sky cats heavily armed with missiles/bombs suppress strategic military targets in combination with conventinal air power.
-troop carrying sky cats drop from high atmo onto targets unleashing attack force to destroy targets.
-after targets are destroyed troops return to skycats who are covered returning to high atmo by escort sky cats (armed to deal with precesion ground targets/air threats)
-comerce raiding begins, naval infiltrator units in non target country procede with normal procedure in times of war.

Thus I give you my first hour of fighting.

Defensivly:
well ideally it would be the same as above for the first part
-Defensive regiments armed and equiped
-prepared defensive positions around major cities and also in important geographical locations are manned
then I wait for you to attack and react.

Tanks in the attack plan are not a huge problem as they have to be got ready and be in the right locations anyway and also survive the initail suppressing attacks.

Tanks in the second plan also have difficulty in being used effectively
1- you have to land them, if you do this where my cities are you will be met with harsh resistance from coastal defenses, mines and the fact i'm sure as hell not letting any docks be taken intact, if you do this in the desert (my nation is one that is quite large in area however only the western coast is actually resonably populated (it has about 300 of the 313 million people living there) there is a mountain range that cuts the western coast off from the rest of my nation except for a few passes (of which only the largest are capable of any large vehicle movement and are open all year) where about 10million live (mainly involved in mining but still some older farming communities) then the vast majority of my nation is actually rain shadow desert where about 3 million live (mainly herders and those who maintain my oil industry)) then you have a massive trek where you have to bring everything yourselves (including water) and you have no docks to capture, then you have the defences in the mountain passes, the smaller ones are only really useable for infantry/light vehicles when they are open from the weather bear in mind they'll also be defended and also the roads will be destroyed if nescessary (while i'd like to keep them open for my troops to use (seeing as apart from my spg everything I have is a light vehicle) for raiding of your supply lines I know these hills better then the aggresser nation so it shouldn't be a huge problem) so you have the main passes which will be defended up to the eye balls mostly with permenant defences (think reinforced concrete and underground) and also mine fields (that I will have a chance to reinforce thanks to the attack going the long way round) and antitank ditches.

Basicly my weapon for dealing with tanks isn't my tanks its mainly artillary, mines, blowing them up before they get ashore, destroying the fuel needed to use them (gotta love people using turbine engines with their fuel guzaling) and also the enermies will to fight. all a tank is with out fuel and with apathetic crew is a big lump of expensive metal.

Also my plan to deal with Super battleships that plague NS is simplicity itself, I have aircraft that can go faster then the ships, higher then any defenses the ships can carry and are almost indetectable, they can carry 10k tons. I build bombs that are 100 tons (most of which will be explosive) say I load 100 up with 50 each, thats 5,000 100 ton bombs, I don't even have to hit the target water shockwave should crush it like a can or at least destroy its motive power, and think what it would do to the supporting fleet! this would leave the super battleship immobile and pretty much defenceless against a conventional submarine torpedo attack, or a submarine poping mines underneath it, it could just sit there floting them up blowing away its armour piece by piece......

Er, any aircraft that could carry a bomb that size would be absolutely massive, picked up by AWACS/RADAR straight away because of its size and intercepted and destroyed by CAP or SAM.

Sky Cat they don't for some reason.....

They have virtually no radar reflection and virtually no heat signiture

This is why the american military is interested in them.

that and the fact they can carry huge loads (10k tons)

also they can fly (especially if they are lightly loaded and modified (teehee)) higher then any aircraft the ships can carry and also can survive most of their weaponry anyway (pretty resillient and shrapnal/bullets just bounce off) also any sams carried wouldn't have the ability and you'd also have to see them comming, also your assuming i'm not jamming things, and have no form of escort (more sky cats with missiles yay the fun)

Sky Cat? (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/skycat.htm)

It says 200 and 1000 tonnes. Not 10,000.

This (http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/skycat/) say Skycat has a maximum altitude of 2715 metres. Which would mean I could kill it with 20mm fire before it got anywhere near a ship let alone a battlegroup.

You are vastly exaggerating its capabilities.

I can not see anywhere where it would say that SkyCat is invulnerable to cannon fire and where something like this has the ability to climb out of missile range and drop a 100 ton bomb (which I won't even go into as an anti shipping weapon). SkyCat is not a naval bomber, (though I guess you could retrofit it to use missiles) it is a logistical transport.

Sky Cat they don't for some reason.....

They have virtually no radar reflection and virtually no heat signiture

This is why the american military is interested in them.

that and the fact they can carry huge loads (10k tons)

also they can fly (especially if they are lightly loaded and modified (teehee)) higher then any aircraft the ships can carry and also can survive most of their weaponry anyway (pretty resillient and shrapnal/bullets just bounce off) also any sams carried wouldn't have the ability and you'd also have to see them comming, also your assuming i'm not jamming things, and have no form of escort (more sky cats with missiles yay the fun)

You are likely overstating the capabilties of Skycats and ignoring thier limitations.

yes the actual "balloon" parts have minimal Radar signature but the actual "body" of a seriously large dseign likely would a somewhat higher level, IR signature would also increase significantly as you enlarge the design and thus need greater amounts of power to move it although it woudls till be below that of a covenetional aircraft (where a lot of the IR signature is a result of high speed skin friction). But despite this thier slow speed means they will be detected in more than enough time, hence why none of the documents i cna see suggest deploying anywhere near any sort of airdefence system with even thier attack roles being very logn range stand off based.

As for being able to hide at height, well in a world of Auroras, XB-70alikes and rediculous number sof ballsitic missile sheilds that is liekly somewhat difficult and armouring against decent automatic cannon is likely impossible, they could likely survive a few bursts thought and as for missiles... well, they would be slow enough for a ASM to hit. Oh and if youa re hjamming it just makes hitting you that much easier with hoem on jam AAMs and ARMs

As for American interest they don't seem to be getting any more interest than any of the other "wonder machines" such as the quad tilt rotor, heavy lift gyrodynes, the pelican or the blended wing body concepts.

As for your Offensive and defensive plans they both assume a degree of incompetance and lack of capability on behalf of your enemy and seem to be fairly run of the mill, nothign particularly wrong with them and i wish you well when you get inavded by an army that outnumbers you entire population.

I am not suggesting using the standard model but a highly altered one designed for high altitude and for this role.

10k tons was a proposed design last time I looked at this.

100 ton bomb (if it would work at all I was slightly exagerating for effect) would work very well especially if it detonated in the water as the shock wave would/should do horrendous damage to the hull of even the most implausible and at the very least destroy/cripple what ever system they are using to propell these things.

Also if that doesn't please at all i'll make a battleship from the pine stuff they discoverd during world war II, (not even nukes do that much (though it would kill the crew horribly) to it)

Strategic missile defence really doesn't work that well, i'd have things to shoot back at the aircraft and so on.

also if you have an army bigger then my nation all I have to do is defend until allies come to my aid, or your megalithic supply lines collapse and your econamy implodes.