NationStates Jolt Archive

I am not sure if there is a thread for this, but I have not seen one. I just needed some help with the modern tech. I am planning for this nation to be MT only, and I need some guidelines to follow if I am to do so. I don't want to be the nation that is like "OMG TEH MISSILE SPAMMAGE LOL HAX 101!".

If there is something like this already, I would appreciate being redirected.

You talking about me?

Swarming an enemy's defences is a legitimate tactic!

I've spent years and trillions of dollars building up my forces for that strike. So what if it's a bit silly, it's not like I'll be able to do it again for loads of NS years

Read the stickies

For pure MT, first of all prefer real-life weapons. They are surely MT.
Second... Well, there are some things that can be done right now, with modern tech. But some. It may be a bit tricky to distinguish what is realistic from what is not at all. The best thing I can suggest is to post anything under question, that is likely MT, but not real, in this thread. I'll watch it and check time to time; as I'm somewhat rl-connected with the corresponding topic, I guess I can see most of the technically impossible things, or recognize what likely was real projects.

And one more thing: When buying weapons, check the prices! A simple goodle search for
<weapon name> <weapon type> unit cost
will often bring some results; check them in tabs and you'll usually find it. Some storefronts tend to offer weapons for ridiculously low prices; notably, SAMs (both small as Stinger or Igla and large as Patriot or S-300), combat helicopters, some planes are much more expensive than they seem. Unrealistic price would mean that these systems are fake, or at best cheap erzats, and any attentive RPer will use that well.
Generally, expect anything Stinger-like to cost $50,000-$100,000; Patriot or S-300 above 50 millions; fighters between 20 and 100 mln; combat helicopters 10 to 45 millions. A MBT is $2-4 mln if it's Soviet/Russian, $5-10 mln if it is Western.

Or, do you have any more specific questions for guidelines? I'll be happy to answer.

Well, I am planning on building my own MT nation from the ground up, but maybe use somethings to help the process. Do you know Red Alert 1 & 2, what about that tech, aside from the psychic beacon and all?

And any advice on building my nation? Such as where to start? I need help T-T

Oh boy. You remind me of.... myself about 100 posts ago :)
I attempted to do the same thing as you, create a MT nation from nothing. Although I am far from a rp superpower, I have come a far way. Other ppl may criticise me, but here is what I did:
1. Purchased all cheap starter packages (i.e. You may see "Starter Air Force" or "Beginner Army Package" and the like at various storefronts. Buy them!)
2. I made sure these things were all within my defence budget, but also tried to get the most for my money whever possible.
3. I started a Word.doc called: Ed States military. I then kept a going list of everything I bought, for how much, and from whom. This way, when rping, if someone ever says, "HEY! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! YOU CANT JUST PULL OUT A TANK DIVISION OUT OF NOWHERE!" I will reply, "WRONG BUDDY! ON (SUCH AND SUCH A DATE), I PURCHASED (INSERT RANDOM WEAPON HERE), FROM THE (PLACE RANDOM STOREFRONT'S NAME HERE)! YOU CAN CHECK THE POSTS AND CHECK FOR YOURSELF!"
And so you can prove you have what you do... and use it to destroy enemy scum ;)
4. BUY ALL AMERICAN! No matter what you buy, buy american. Often russian is cheaper (like a AK-74 compared to a M-14, or a RPK compared to a SAW, the list goes on....), but american weapons are usually better, easier to research, and when you buy american, you don't have to buy from the disgusting filth today known as communism :)

So yeah... those are my 4 basic suggestions to getting a MT rp nation started....

By storefronts, you mean the threads, right?

Actually if you are going to use RL equipment, don't bother buying it off anyone, just biuld it yourself, in the long run it is a far better for your nation.

For biudling up your military i would look at Rl nations with economies similar to what you would like your nation to have i.e. if you want a fairly liberal nation that tries to balance all the plates at the same time look at the european nations or if you want a more or less dictatorship that spends stupidly huge amoutn of money on the latest fancy military toys look at Saudi Arabia.

Personally i would go with using british Divsions and brigades as your basic military biudling blocks, in fact a basic copy of the british armed forces is a fairly good example of what to aim for by the time you get to about 60million, this website has a good breakdown of organisatiosn and equipment levels:
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armyindex.htm

Of course it is perfectly possible to take those structures and factor in alternative bits of equipment i.e. you might want to swap Challenger 2s for Leopard 2A6s or Warrior IFVs for BMP-3s and when you get a bit bigger you would definatly want to start considering adopting various people's custom designs or even designing your own equipment.

Check This (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494339) out... might help you out

By storefronts, you mean the threads, right?
Threads that are storefronts. Correct. By the way, I suppose it is my duty to ask you, would you be interested in joining a alliance of varied nations?
Go here if interested:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=506121

Ad, ad, ad...
Don't listen to the advertisers. They just want to sell you their weapons, and to drag you into their alliances. Just choose for yourself. The sides are more or less equal in the big picture.

Also, note that using custom equipment, for few exceptions, will make you not pure MT; even if it is realistic, many nations won't assume it. Most of the time it even isn't. Remember also that to make some weapons, you need related tech and designs. Decide where did you get them. Some can be bought, some can't as easily.

Frankly, I rarely see RL equipment used in MT. Even without advances in technology, most custom equipment is superior, mainly because NS nations have a good deal more money to spare. There's a very small block of ultra-MT nations who use solely what exists currently, but they're very much in the minority.

Azaranthia: Do whatever you want. If you've got the aptitude, go for it and design your own equipment. Frankly, custom equipment fits your nation's background the most, as you're not based on any RL country in the slightest, so using a Challenger or Abrams would be rather awkward. If you find designing too difficult, I would personally buy from other nations as you encounter them. If you follow this option, The Maccabee's Kreigzeimer Corporation makes pretty much the best MBT on NS, the Arca Nakil (very slightly PMT due to an ETC cannon), and has a good amount of variants. Sarzonia's Portland Iron Works (currently administered by Southeast Asia) produces some of the best ships if you're interested. I'm not qualified to name a good producer of aircraft, and since my own Pale Rider Arms produces small arms and NBC weapons (well, BC), I can hardly be considered an unbiased source for those.

Simply:

At MT there should be little to distinguish between NS and real life weapons.
(IE the advantages of using NS designs are minimmal)

In other words, treat NS MT weapons with scrutiny, find every flaw.

Normally, MT armies are just countries armed with their favorite weapons (or what they'd like to see if it is a retrograde development).

When it sounds too good to be true, it most likely is PMT...
(But you could be wrong, and that would set you at a dissadvantage)

But if an MT country starts going PMT, there is little or no turning back (unless you separate the two eras and RP them separately)

NS weapons have one advantage: Polotics

NS nations can develop weopons with almost no regard to popular cartridges or calibers, esentially, every nation starts with a clean slate for their military, so choose your starter set wisely.

Example:
I found that a 120 grain, 6.5 x 55 mm Remmington Magnum cartridge provides better performance to not only the assualt rifles out beyond 500 meters, but even the .306/7.62x51 mm NATO and .270 Winchester, even at the muzzle... With very light recoil.

Sadly, in real life, the 6.5 never caught on...
Now it is my country's standard rifle caliber...

And is now being pressed as an unofficial "GASN limited standard rifle cartridge"
Meaning it will soon be as popular on NS as the NATO, Warsaw pact, and Kraven rounds...

Though the GASN members (myself included) are still bickering over how long the cartridge should be... (may be as short as 50 mm...)

As Otagia said, go with what you want. ViZion, until just now (as it, about 2 hrs ago) has been almost COMPLETELY RL stuff (aside from a couple things here and there) However, given the current situation we're in (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=505452) and the nice funding given to us by Jarridia and the WWA, we've gone on a buying spree for NS-grade weaponary.

None the less, when you're starting out (I'm going by old school '03 standards if I remember 'em correctly) your military shouldn't be more than 1% of your population until your nation and econ and military are stable enough. Total military should then rise to no more than 5% of your population by 200-300 million pop, with active (during peacetime) being absolutely no more than 1% of your pop.

Also, it's usually around 100 million in pop that you can start working on nuclear-grade stuff, and it'll usually take to 200 million at the lower (without help from older nations) before you have a nuclear weapon to test.

Just some guidelines from the old days of NS that I still go by.

But if an MT country starts going PMT, there is little or no turning back (unless you separate the two eras and RP them separately)

ViZion, for example. We have two seperate ViZion's: MT and FT. (MT ViZion split into two nations: MT and PMT as it advanced... which, in time, became FT...) But I don't RP my FT ViZion much these days.

ViZion, for example. We have two seperate ViZion's: MT and FT. (MT ViZion split into two nations: MT and PMT as it advanced... which, in time, became FT...) But I don't RP my FT ViZion much these days.

Exactly, another example would be Emporer Pudu...

One's "nicer" than the other...

Thanks Vizion, I needed to know that statistics for my military. Um, Hurtful, that sounds pretty good. I was planning on taking rifles in existance, maybe changing their physical shape or color a bit, and the catridge types. Though, with the type you mentioned, I may just buy that....=P.

Check CLICK ME (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494339) out... might help you out

Rather got ignored back there... it helps explain a bit about the tech levels and such...

Azaranthia: Do whatever you want. If you've got the aptitude, go for it and design your own equipment. Frankly, custom equipment fits your nation's background the most, as you're not based on any RL country in the slightest, so using a Challenger or Abrams would be rather awkward. If you find designing too difficult, I would personally buy from other nations as you encounter them. If you follow this option, The Maccabee's Kreigzeimer Corporation makes pretty much the best MBT on NS, the Arca Nakil (very slightly PMT due to an ETC cannon), and has a good amount of variants. Sarzonia's Portland Iron Works (currently administered by Southeast Asia) produces some of the best ships if you're interested. I'm not qualified to name a good producer of aircraft, and since my own Pale Rider Arms produces small arms and NBC weapons (well, BC), I can hardly be considered an unbiased source for those.
Thanks man. Here's the link to the current version of the storefront (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457777). One minor error however: the Kriegzimmer Conglomerate's Arca IV does not use the electrothermal-chemical technology found on many NationStates tanks: it uses an older but not used propellant for the tank cannon, the liquid propellant.

I agree with Otagia, Azaranthia. Do whatever fits you the best in your opinion. I recommend you see Illior's thread for a detailed explanation. If you have the sufficient role-play skill and tactical ability to, you can make RL weaponry as pertinently devastating as NS weaponry if not more.

But the primary advantage with NS weaponry is, you have a head-start as the weapon's potential capabilities already ingrained in powerful doses when used initially, and more advanced than RL creations thanks to the economics of NationStates Earth.

Thanks Vizion, I needed to know that statistics for my military. Um, Hurtful, that sounds pretty good. I was planning on taking rifles in existance, maybe changing their physical shape or color a bit, and the catridge types. Though, with the type you mentioned, I may just buy that....=P.

There is one problem with the GASN standard assualt rifle: Polotics.

Once you try making anything standard within an alliance, you start comming across those who defend their cartridges vehemently, even if the only diferance is a length of 1 mm...

Let alone if it a whole nother caliber...

As such, it is only
"Limited standard" (British term)
Roughly meaning, standard military unless something better and more readily available exists...

Currently, 4 nations operate with 6.5 mm, but all their cartridges are differnt, one uses the 6.5 mm Grendal, which makes it a good transitional cartridge, as now you can use .223 action with a 6.5 mm barrel, remaking another upgraded M-16ish gun with an action modified to accept both the purpose build 6.5 and the grendal completes the transition.

Ok wow...my brain hurts. Let's start with the basics here. I just want to outline my economy, military, and political system, in my factbook thread, which I will post here. Anyways, I just need some help in organizing my military. I was planning on just making up some tanks, artillery pieces, etc etc, but that looks a little complicated. So I am planning on buying what I need. However, I am reluctant to do so, as if I try to buy all the stuff I need, and in the numbers needed, I would bankrupt myself.

So I am a little lost as to what to do.

But before we get into that, know that HT, I will probably be going to you for buying this catridges, getting info previously of course. And Southeastasia, you can bet I will be going to you for ships, if I see any I like.

You don't have to go into huge amounts of detail about anythign you invent, particularly to start with, yes the detail is nice but i woudl think you would be fine comming up with with names for each bit of "indiginous" equipment to start with as logn as you have a general idea about how they are different. Once you feel more comfortable you cna then visit the likes of the NS draftroom (link in my sig) for help and advice with designing.

At the current time you really aren't goign to have much in the way of defence capabilities so your best bet is to decide what you want to have by the time you reach 50-60million, then 100million, then 250million etc and gradually buy/biuld what you need as times goes by.

Most people are generally very generous towards younger nations in terms of discounts and gifts so you might find yourself being able to afford more than you think.

Thanks Vizion, I needed to know that statistics for my military.
No prob. Lemme know if I can help you anymore. Me and many of us NS vets are more than willing to help ya oyut.

Most people are generally very generous towards younger nations in terms of discounts and gifts so you might find yourself being able to afford more than you think.
ViZion, usually, is one of those. However, unfortunately, we can't due to our fight against nations trying to take us over.

And Southeastasia, you can bet I will be going to you for ships, if I see any I like.
It's "Southeast Asia" and "Southeast Asian", not "Southeastasia" and "Southeastasian. Both IC and OOC. Change it please, I'm not in the mood to explain.

Quite a few storefronts (read: Pale Rider Arms ;)) also offer lines of credit, so that when your budget is higher you can pay for the stuff you've already bought.

Ok wow...my brain hurts. Let's start with the basics here. I just want to outline my economy, military, and political system, in my factbook thread, which I will post here. Anyways, I just need some help in organizing my military. I was planning on just making up some tanks, artillery pieces, etc etc, but that looks a little complicated. So I am planning on buying what I need. However, I am reluctant to do so, as if I try to buy all the stuff I need, and in the numbers needed, I would bankrupt myself.

So I am a little lost as to what to do.

But before we get into that, know that HT, I will probably be going to you for buying this catridges, getting info previously of course. And Southeastasia, you can bet I will be going to you for ships, if I see any I like.

Yep, NS is a complex place, and now you know why I'm called 'Hurtful Thoughts'... (A People's Republic of them, might I add, so I get the headaches so you don't have to!)

Also, Carbandia offers rifles of the same caliber (and perhaps the same cartridge [but he's currently locked into the 50 mm C-length, and not the 55])

Buying suggestion:
Buy packages, and not all at once (each 'NS year' and your budget is refreshed, meaning you can buy more stuff the next day).

Just out of coincedence, most of my equipment are at almost insanely low prices (as if I intend to prop up a few governments in order to increase sales) But I don't offer packages, you just have to buy in bulk...

Loans and credit:
I also accept ADAN and GASN credit (these lines of credit are backed by cash resserves, so I get paid no matter what, you then pay ADAN or GASN monatry fund respectively).

I also offer 'Emergency loans', which means you give up a chunk of land for me to place a military base and train troops (or give them R+R depending on climate) as collateral, the loans are paid by my forces using the land on your implied credit (in other words, we use the amount of money we loaned you over the period of 1 to 10 years on your land and services, then we call it even and leave).

There's a very small block of ultra-MT nations who use solely what exists currently, but they're very much in the minority.
This as a result causes what was supposed to be MT to split into two levels: RL tech and MT+1 (not real MT, as most custom equipment usually features some trait which is not possible with modern technology). RL/MT tech sometimes also includes redesignated RL weapons, or something built or clearly projected and designed now, like Zumwalt class, EF later blocks, sometimes CVN-21 and F-35, but not beyond, and not experimental things. The cutoff is specs being known.

And, actually, there is quite a sufficient number of threads that use this tech level. Some (myself included) would argue that this is the real MT, with addition of rifles redesignated for existing cartriges and similar modifications that can clearly be done.
Of course, these are not completely distinct levels, and not-really-MT tech can be used in MT threads, but its advantages are not unlikely to be ignored or negated. If you use RL tech, you can always be sure that no one will say "wank", and no one fill find a major flaw, because a lot of people have already tried.

Also, some RL weapons have good PR, and the image of their capabilities is greatly exaggerated in people's minds. Given, say, a ship or aircraft with all specs exactly the same, it is going to be admired if it's from US, respected if it's from Europe, viewed critically if it's from Russia, almost ignored if it's from China, India, Korea, weak East European countries or so, and contempted if it's from Africa or muslim Middle East. It can be entirely the same, just simply redesignated, and 95% of the people, at least in US, will say it's worse and even find a reason why. I've seen myself people who were positive basing on specs that Panha 2091 is much worse than AH-1, or that KH2002 is inferior to M16, and so on, though both are redesignated and improved versions, and, if by nothing else, better by specs. So specs and capabilities matter little, PR does a lot, unless you stumble upon some players who are into this thing. Well, so this is another advantage of RL equipment - the psychological pressure. Equipment from NS nations will fall into the fourth category, from younger ones sometimes even worse. Cool or not, but the PR of some RL weapons is just too good.
And, in freeform roleplay, is will matter; not to count that anyone using own equipment, even if it is in fact redesignated RL, will be looked upon as slightly wanking, especially by RL tech nations.

So it makes quite a good sense to use RL tech if one is going to play in MT. RL tech nations will like it, reasonable non-RL-MT won't have advantage, and game against MT-like will still be quite even if they keep inside MT+1.

A real minus of RL tech is only that you can't play with PMT nations: most MT-called tech is quite competitive with (if distinguishable from) PMT. RL equipment, of course, isn't; not so much about specs, but PMT will win over it just because it is supposed to be better.

*brain melts* I'm sorry but its hard to wrap my mind around this mass of information.

HT: Define packages, what is in them etc, how long an NS year is, and what ADAn and GASN credit is.

Vault 10: Yeah, I can see that. I would still try but nonetheless, moving on. I may try going with RL tech, as this process of buying NS tech is just so confusing.

To help myself understand this, here is my factbook

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=506110

take a look and see what I should put for military and economy. Please and thank you.

*brain melts* I'm sorry but its hard to wrap my mind around this mass of information.

HT: Define packages, what is in them etc, how long an NS year is, and what ADAn and GASN credit is.

Packages: A storefront 'item' that is capable of fully outfitting and maintain a unit, usally a division. Storefronts then sell them at a lower cost in order to encourage you to buy them.

I didn't come up with the idea, and personally, I believe it is for those who don't like fine tuning their military, and settle for a 'coockie cutter' unit.

So I don't offer them.
=============
GASN: Global Alliance of Soveriegn Nations
(MT-PMT superpower)

ADAN: Aggressive/Defensive Alliance of Nations
(bastard child of GASN)

Both have their own 'bank' for providing readily available economuic aid to their members, this credit is automatically accepted by other members, and participating storefronts.
==========
An 'NS year' is 24 hours in 'storefront jive'
------------
Weapon note: I do not recommend the CFR-06*, as a simple 12 ga pump shotgun firing 00 Buckshot with a 10 shell clip or 20 shell drum is far supirior.

[thinks about offering Leaf plans to the CFS-02, cost: $75 each]

*The CFR-06 was a desparate attempt to achieve a lower price than my CCZ-75 and CM-16 automatic weapons. But quality is far less than mine.

At 15 yards, it doesn't matter what you use...

All this information is well and good, but I still don't know where to start.

Alright, let's back up. What should I start working on as the first step?

Read stickies

Procure weapons (RL weapons you can make yourself, if you have the infrastructure)

Organize units and equipment on a military factbook. (more detail means you'll have an easier time RPing small unit engagements)

Start making names and histories for unit commanders, use these as needed, and don't forget to promote them when they survive a combat RP...

Get into a combat exercise RP

Now you have a trained and outfitted starter military, now focus on improving it.