NationStates Jolt Archive

all right, far too many PT RPs have died due to excessive godmoding, people becomeing pivotal to the whole thing then leaving, and various other pathetic causes which could have been avoided....

so, i have a plan and a proposal: a new PT rp [details to be decided in this thread] open to people i have RPd with before who weren't the causes of problems [Caladonn, Terra Incognitia, Thrashia, and a few others who's names escape me right now, for example, are garanteed 'in' if they express an interest] and people They know are good for this as well.

in other words, a much less fast and lose policey reguarding who joins up.

reguarding what type: i'd like to set up a points system for deciding available resorces etc before we start, both as a framework for building nations, and so as to have some referance to what each nation can and can't do...

however, this would have no real bearing on game play as such [beyond the fact that if you didn't spend the points on rifle tech, and have not somehow aquired it in the RP, for example, then you don't Have rifles. your guys simply don't know of them/ don't use them on any large scale.]

possible era's i'd like to do include Napolionic, and whatever era it was that my first PT rp was in... theoreticaly it was ancient, but the ships were borderline ACW, as an example.

another posibility, which isn't qutie PT as such, would be reserecting my old "Stranger Blades" universe, or at least part of it.

the idea being that fudalisem never vanished. it spread. the entire world is devided into random little counts, duchies, kingdomes, and 4 great empires [who aren't actually Powers, so much as administrative entitys. heraldry, banks, that kind of thing], each of those being a subdivision of the one after, mostly, rather than indipendant.

it's 'modern', but with no world wars or nationstates or european colonial empires, there are no man portable machine guns or nukes. no swarms of fighters [though fighters themselves are around], no strategic bombing etc...

simply because the large scale standardised industrial base never came into being. a captain of a combat ship is Litteraly a prince, in effect, and an admiral a king, simply because of the wealth required to feild such a force and how much of a drain they would be if they were a sub part of a county or duchie.

there are rifles [breachloading] around, but on a battle field you're as likely to run into units of archers or musketmen, just because rifles in large numbers cost money, while archers only cost time.

electricity is around, but don't expect national power grids, and wind and water generators would be the most common [due to ease of resorce aquisition]

i dunno how viable taht is as a nation driven RP, especially a "PT" one, but it was a possiblity that allowed for everything from british longbowmen to cargo blimps to drednaughts to swordsmen to cavalry to [occasional] tanks.

i was originaly going to turn it into a web comic or something, actually, but that sorta fell through. i'm no artist, for one thing.

anyway, i got totaly side tracked.

upshot of all this: semi-closed RP with actual details to be decided. any interest?

Yep. Possible idea we discussed before:

Use Ireland. Use the current counties as subdivisions, just make the whole thing a bit bigger; include maybe the Isle of Man if anyone wants to be offshore (Caladonn...) and Scotland as an unsettled continent if we wanted...

I say Ireland because maps etc are quite easy to find, we can put any culture and time period on that setting; and the number of subdivisions I think works quite well for this form of RP.

EDIT: and dude, your spelling gets worse...

might want to chop some of the larger countys into pieces, but yeah, it'd work.

unless we end up doing the Stranger Blades reality, [unlikely, i know] in which case the pacific would be better.

soon as we have some decision on the era/reality, i'll start putting togeather a points list, unless that idea gets utterly rejected.

you'd be amazed how easily resorces, for example, shape a people...

apparantly, NZ did have iron. the maori never got to iron working, however, because for all that we have iron... we don't have the softer mettles that would allow for the development of any sort of mettle working in the first place, at least not accesably. go figure.

and then culture drives tech. useing the Maori as an example again.. their wars were often more about Mana and [vengance/revenge/reatilation/fued] than anything more significant. as a result, the never really developed or used ranged weapons [well, i think there may have been a couple for hunting. no bows though]

see how that works out?

as i said, personaly i'd be partial to naopolionic era stuff, as i know a fair bit about it and it would be the easyest to set up. but i got no problem with anything else. well, 'cept mabey the world wars.

Am I on your magic list Angerman, I know I don't have that great an attendance record but I swear I've changed...

Yeah, Spooty, your RP has been pretty good, so long as you can guarantee to be active.

As for the idea of a points-based RP, Napoleonic era is something of a specialty, and we have had problems with inactive/bad RPers in the past... so, in short, I agree with nearly every one of your ideas.

However, the whole feudalism/random compiled tech thing is really confusing... I mean, one tank is essentially invincible against any number of longbowmen, until it runs out of fuel... I'd rather just go with one tech than a lot combined. We should at least have one highest tech (Say, Napoleonic) and then, if you want to go lower than that, you can have other bonuses.

hehe. the Stranger Blades reality was just a thought.

and true, one tank is all but invinsable against long bow men... but it's all but invinsable against infantry who don't have rocket launchers anyway...

and it only takes One of them to take it out :)

as i think i mentioned, that would have to be more charicter based than nation based, so i'm not so sure it'd work out too well.

humm. i dunno, Spooty. hehe. if a couple of other people are willing to vouch for you, sure. just be prepared to lose your stuff if you go missing for too long.

as i said though, the points is mostly a set up thing.

*ponders* need to kick around actual values a bit, as well as what would or wouldn't need to be rated....

i had some small plan for keeping army sizes sane, but it's not sitting right in my head just now.

I have one basic Idea, DON'T DO RL. I bet Godmodding is a problem in PT, but another big problem too would be not knowing their RL country in this era. I personally would love to do a PT-Nation Based as well as Character Based or any combo of the two as there is seldom any NSW-PT.

ugh.. and for a less confusing post:

for this RP, i figured napolionic was best. actually, one could easily argue that the ability to train effective longbow men would be worth More points than any other troop type...

seeing as how they take more effort to train, their gear is cheaper to make, they can fire faster and further than any other infantry [rifles can match their range, i think, but their rate of fire at this point is abismal]

though apparantly the Austrians had air rifles that were far supperior to any other infantry weapon at the time... they just didn't have the support/equipment/training/whatever to maintain them in the field, so the ended up leaving them in the armorys. if the place where the rifles were stored had been attacked, they probibly would have got them out though :D

i don't know the exact specifics beyond that they were air rifles and better than anything else, though.

... i've pretty much got to the point of saying "napolionic/points set up/almost-closed/free-form rp for this one :)

note that i probibly spelled a lot of things wrong in the following list:

list of things that are definatly getting points values:

troop types [the ability to get them. individual troopers are a different story]:

currasiers
grenadiers
cossack style troops
cannon [foot] [3, 6, 8, 9, 12 pounders]
cannon [horse] [3, 6, 8,9 pounders, i think]
rockets
howitzers/mortars [i think these come in 6 and 9 pound varietys, but i'm not sure]
dragoons
lancers
elite troops of any sort [a modifyer to the troop type cost]
guard troops of any sort [a modifyer to the troop type cost]
carabiners
elephant troops

ships: all sorts. i'm tempted to make the Ships cost points, rather than the type, because of how long they take to make.

equipment [it is possible to have units that arn't of the troop type, as such, have their equipment]:

rifles
superior/inferior horses
grenades
lances
carbines

resorces:

presious metels/gems
gunpowder [that is, you produce all the materials to make it yourself, and have the equipment to do so, rather than having to buy all/parts of it]
Iron
Coal

that's all i can think of right now, and it leaves out most of the negatives... feel free to add any ideas or comment on it.

I have one basic Idea, DON'T DO RL. I bet Godmodding is a problem in PT, but another big problem too would be not knowing their RL country in this era. I personally would love to do a PT-Nation Based as well as Character Based or any combo of the two as there is seldom any NSW-PT.

... yeah... already knew that... learnt it early on actually.

in fact, i'm a prime example of not knowing the countrys properly.

i do enough real life stuff [especially in the napolionic era!] in the form of wargameing, without RPing it here too. thus... real life in as much as the normal laws of physics apply, no magic/time travel/etc. other than that, pretty much fantasy [with some limits to stop it going nuts]

now... do i know you? or know someone who does?

Godmoding is a Major problem.. which is why this is going to end up being pretty much a closed RP.

Points-ness looking pretty good.
I'd suggest adding one or two others, like road network, canal network, and maybe even, for an advanced state, a semaphore network.

Downsides, you're probably looking at something relating to how valued the military is as a profession...pretty intangible, but it affects the quality of the officers.
Other downsides, apart from lacking equipment etc, are mostly more on the social side - social unrest, etc etc.

good ideas. humm... once we're done kicking around ideas, i guess i'll start a new thread for the OOCness with this stuff all formalised in the first post.

i'd be more inclined to list things such as the officers training for how skilled they are, than how valued the military is.

however, how valued the military is would be significant in other ways. but that one is more to do with how it's used. it gets too restrictive if we number that particular trait.

as would be the over all skill in trading and the like... and diplomacy...

actually, a lot of these things would probilby be "unavailable/nonexistant/crippled" for a large minus, "poor/rare/incompitant" etc for a small minus "good/reasonably common/talented" for a small plus, and "abundant/plentiful/excilant/genious/highly skilled/high quality" and so on for a big plus.

with associated points values.

i'm thinking, Useually, that'll rate a -2, -1, +1, and +2 respectivly [that is, spent] though in some cases that'd be shifted slightly one way or another, a bigger variation, or outright missing some grades.

any more suggestions for factors [and ideas as to roughly how many points worth of stuff one can take without some sort of negative] would be good.

oh. something to add to the list: marines.

any suggestions on how to do the ships?

i'm thinking the quality of the shipyards would be another rated factor.

Quality of ships built, quality of crews, and quality of leadership, so as not to over-specialise it.
e.g. France generally had better ships, Britain had better crews, and leadership varied.

sounds about right.

i'm guessing a conscript army would be a negative [as opposed to a standing army]

so, what are we still missing appart from a few people and a map?

Yeah, we should have naval and land stuff... everything looks pretty good so far. I'm fine with both IRL and NS nations, though since most people seem to prefer NS nations, that's fine.

actually, it's not even 'NS' nations, as such. youre nation states nation has absolutly no bearing on it [beyond possibly your name]

on the other hand, they're Definatly not RL nations.

there was a thought floating around that each teritory should have a set number of people fit to be soldiers, and you can't recruit more than that....

but more logical would be to give each territory a fixed population...

if you want to have more workers and less soldiers, great... more soldires and less workers... well, so long as you can get the logistics going, why not?

so, is there anything else? or would someone like to volenteer to sort a map and for me to go start a thread with things all nailed down and sorted out in it?

.. a roll call would be good. we have.. Terra, Caladonn, myself, probibly Spooty... anyone else? i'm thinking we probibly could do with a couple more [7 is a really good number for this kind of thing. go figure]

Count me in. *thumbs up*

i'm working this out as i type it, so don't be surprised if it is a bit odd.

as useual, you'll have to excuse my spelling. some of these words arn't even english :S do tell me if any of this is too confusing.

once it's done and a map is sorted we'll orginize a proper OOC thread and you can sort your nations threads and stuff.

all points values are what you have available. if you don't spend points on the option of arming your regular guys with rifles, you can't give them rifles. but just because you do, doesn't mean you have to. higher 'grades' of troop types allow you to use those grades lower than the one you payed for, also.

ok. not spending any points at all [very bad idea] will get you the following:
poor quality flint lock muskets
all troops esentually raw conscripts
no method of producing your own artillary or ships, or facilitys/experiance for training their crews
and cav being essentually "the guys who could afford a horse and whatever else they've got"
dirt roads [not especially well made, prone to turning to mud in the rain]
basic use of rivers to transport things.
basic 'not much more than subsitance' level economy. some merchants, perhaps, but no major specialist industrys, nor any real ability to mass produce weaponary.
none of the raw materials listed on the 'spend points to get this' chart.


in other words. it sucks. i'd advise against it.

now, for things and what they cost:

Defined troop types [taken to include the required equipment, thus haveing carabiners automaticly gives them carbines, greandiers grenades,etc, though you'd still have to spend points to give such gear to anyone else.]:

line infantry [armed with muskets and bayonets]: 2nd line, 1point. regular, 2points. vetern 3 points. elite 7 points. guard, 12 points [seriously, if all your regular infantry is guard, there's something odd going on]

Grenadiers [armed with muskets, bayonets and grenades (light fuse and throw, hope nothin goes wrong)] equivilant grade line infantry cost +1.

Riflemen [armed with... rifles and sword bayonets] equivilant grade line infantry cost +2.

'light' infantry [skirmshers and the like. normaly armed with muskets and bayonets] equivilant grade line infantry cost +1

marines [armed with line infantry equpment adaptad for use at sea and trained for ship to ship as well as land combat. wooden ramrods are an example of equipment modifications]: line infantry equivilant +3 points

orginized regualar light cavalry [armed with saber]: 2nd line 2 points. line, 3 points. veteran, 4 points. elite , 7 points. guard, 12 points.

orginized regular heavy cavalry [armed with saber]: light +1.

lancers [armed wtih lance and saber]: light cav equivilant +2

currasiers [armored. armed with sabers]: heavy cav equivilant +3

light dragoons, heavy dragoons, equivilant light or hevy cav +3 [if they're Actuall dragoons, as in they can dismount and fight as infantry as well, rather than only with blade from horse back]

carabiners: light cav +2 [armed wtih carbines as well as sabers]

cosack-equivilants: taken instead of light cav. you can't have both. while these guys were far more mobile, and had lances, pistols, carbins, and sabers, as well as some interesting tactics... they were some of the worst cav around in a straight up fight. so as far as cavalry go, they basicly balance themselves out to no over all increase or decrese in cost on this scale.

artillary, foot, 3 pdr: 2nd line, 1 point. line, 2 points. veteran, 3 points. elite 8 points. guard, 15 points.

6 pdr: equivilant 3 pdr +1.
8/9 pdr: equivilant 3 pdr +2
12pdr: equivilant 3 pdr +4 [these things could outrange muskets with their Canister shots... most horribly cumbersome feild piece of the time, but very distructive]

horse artillary: equivilant foot artillary +1, cannot be 12 pdrs.

seige artillary: you've either got it or you don't. 5 points. uterly useless Except in seiges.

howitzers/mortars. come in 6/8/9 pound varietys [bigger ones are 'seige' artillary]. equivilant foot +3

congrieve rockets: 10 points. [these are... wiledly inacurate (they've been knowen to come back and hit the batterys before), come in many diffferent varietys, and won't actually do a lot of damage over all. however, they're Loud, Explode rather spectacularly, and anything they Do manage to hurt is basicly screwed. think early flamethrowers for the over all effect, but at range]

ships [remember, actually Building most of these is horificly expensive. this is just you're Ability to do so. they would also need wood, iron, etc to build.]:
combat transports [these have a name, but i forget it. they carry marines, or regular troops, without need for modification ] 3 points.
schooners: 7 points
Frigates, : 4 points
heavy frigates,: 5 points
64 gun SOTL,: 8 points
74 gun sotl, : 12 points
100gun sotl: 17 points
superior crews: + 1 to ship type cost
elite crews: +3 to ship type cost
inferior crews: -2 to ship type cost
superior armiments: +4 to ship type cost
inferior armiments: -3 to ship type cost
combat ship carrys marines as part of compliment: +3 to ship type cost
'Indiamen': 4 points
Privateirs: 7 points
over all experianced naval personal: 4 points
over all conscripted naval personal: -3 points


Inferstructure:

paved highways: 3 points

semaphore towers: [Very useful, but expensive to build] 3 points

amunition factorys [as opposed to hand made amuntion] 5 points

man made/improved cannals: few/basic, 3 points. many/pretty good, 5 points. Venice, 10 points.

food production levels: 'why are we not dead?', -1 points [ayup, that's a negative right there]. subsitance: 0 points. small surplus, 2 points. abundance, 6 points. never having knowen starvation and haveing so much food that it's rotting in the granerys, 12 points.

that one's important ^^^^^^^ can't feed an army if you got no food, after all. that's in terms of efficiancy of use of land, incidently, so if you get more out of it, losing a little bit will take more out of your production [though not percentage wise]

ship yards: basic, 3 points. advanced merchant, 5 points. advanced military, 8 points. skilled, trained, practiced, well supplyed, well equiped, Fast, etc merchant/military shipyards, 18 points.

superior foundrys, 3 points.
superior gunsmiths, 5 points

military equipment [not already intergrated into troop types]:

rifles [can't be used by riflemen or cav] +3 to the troop type's cost [these things are Slow to load incidently. keep that in mind. they also have a significant range advantage and increase in accuracy]

curras [can't be used by currasiers] +4 to troop type's cost. [chest armor for the win! won't stop a rifle/musket shot from close range, it's not thick enough. however, it is designed to Deflect them. at any rate, it's armor.]

'shrapnel': can only be used by artillary. + 8 points to that type of artillary's cost. [it has a proper name, but i forget what it was, and it was invented by a guy by the name of shrapnel, which is where the term comes from. detonates over the enemy's heads, spraying them with fragments. ... when it works.

carbines: a short musket/long pistol, designed for use by cavalry. +2 point to the cost of any cav armed with it appart from carabiners or dragoons. -4 to the cost of infantry if given to theim instead of rifles or muskets. crap range, less accurate than a musket. faster reloads.

Pistols. single shot, muzzle loaders [like everything else :)] useable by anyone. +1 to the cost of the unit type that will use them.

superior mounts: +1 to the cost of cavalry equiped with these. can run faster, stand more shock without panicing, are better trained, etc.

inferior mounts: -1 to the cost of cav equipped with these. slower, less endurance, more skitish, etc.

superior draft horses: these affect a lot of things, logistics, artillary, etc. so they're not a plus. just a cost. 2 points.

standardised amunition: [for artillary and ships. basicly assumed to already apply for infantry] 3 points

raw materials: [if you don't have these and need them, well, you'll have to import them]

coal: some, 2 points. abundant, 5 points. in same location as iron, +3 points
iron: some, 2 points. abundant, 5 points. in same loation as coal, +3 points
[yes you do pay both. it toatals to + 6 for them being in the same place]
gunpowder [all component materials readily available] 3 points
gold: some, 3 points. plenty, 5 points. much, 10 points.
silver: see gold -1
abundant timber [lots spare for burning, building, etc etc] 3 points
water: poor quality/barely enough, -1 point [for either. pay twice for both]. high quality/abundant, 4 points [for either. pay twice for both].

some miscilany:

small army [and i mean Small, not just 'not as big as the next guy] -15
large army [conscription would be a must to be able to get this many men!] +25
large navy [well, there goes your army] +25
small navy [sorry, you don't rule the waves. in fact, you're not even a pesant on the waves. you rate lower than a worm when it comes to significance at sea]: -15


a note: you cannot take two contradictory things. ie, poor and high quality water. one or the other, thank you very much!

you get a total of 50 points to spend, if i've worked this out right, though if someone wants to run through it that'd be good, coz i may have given too many.

basicly, you should be able to afford "roughly average" if you split your points evenly.

also, unrelated to points costing, but still probibly significant: i am informed that a population of 1 million that also wished to have a decent army would probibly be able to support, at most, 20 ships of the line. most countrys in this era either gave up the bulk of their land forces, or the bulk of their naval posibility in favour of the other, weither it was in quality or numbers.

makeing somethings better is going to result in you being forced to leave some other things worse.

agian, point out any problems if you see them.

an example points list. this is what i intend to use.

when you've worked out your points, start your thread with a factbook post, and start that post with your points thing.

regular line infantry 2 points [muskets, bayonets]
elite Grenadiers 11 points. [rifles, sword bayonets, grenades]
regular light infantry 3 points [muskets, bayonets]
veteran lancers. 8 points [lance, saber, carbine]
veteran heavy dragoons, 8 points [saber, carbine]
line cossak equivilant: 3 points [armed with... whatever]
elite 12pdr 12 points
Frigates with inferior crews and armiments, : -1 points
'Indiamen' with inferior crews and armerments: -1 points
combat transports with inferior crews and armiments: -2 points
over all conscripted naval personal: -3 points
paved highways: 3 points
amunition factorys 5 points
cannals: few/basic, 3 points.
food production levels: abundance, 6 points.
ship yards: basic, 3 points.
superior foundrys, 3 points.
superior draft horses: these affect a lot of things, logistics, artillary, etc. so they're not a plus. just a cost. 2 points.
standardised amunition: 3 points
iron: some, 2 points.
gunpowder [all component materials readily available] 3 points
silver: some, 2 points.
small navy -15


notice how badly i had to screw over my navy to get all the elite/highpowered land stuff? that's not even the best land set up you can get, in terms of troops.

you guys still alive?

if you start your threads [leaving aside geography untill Terra gets a map sorted] and post links to them here, i can then start the offical ooc thread with the points things and the links and so on in the first post.

then once we orginize teritory clames, we'll be good to go.

i intend to "auction" off the territorys in this thread. it'll be aranged in such a way that everyone gets some [missing out all togeather is just silly], and i don't want to clutter our 'tidy' thread with it once that gets going.

i'm all enthused about this!

Map of the British Isles, divided by county, right?

yeup. that's the one. though i Think they were earldoms, historicaly *shrugs*

but yeah, that's what we'll be useing, if you can get it :)

Map of the British Isles by county. (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=73179979&imageID=1351661439)

... do i need to prod people with a stick of doom or something? you guys even still looking at this? [appart from Terra, obviously]

anyway. if you check out the map Terra put up a link to...

i'm thinking that i'll probibly pre-split it into 'packages', and each player will get one of those to start with. probilby two in ireland and the rest in britain.

unless people would prefure some other system for devideing it up?

Provisional territories in map form:
here. (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=73179979&imageID=1351763980)

Ideally need another player, rather than a spare territory.

Right. here's the deal:

post here to conferm that you are, indeed, actually still participating. chose and unclaimed teritory from the map linked in Terra's post above [Terra has already claimed wales, and i have claimed scotland]. once everyone has done that, i'll start the official OOC thread. you make your nation's IC thread [with the useual factbook first post] and i'll put the link, along with the maps and the points list thing, in the first post of it.

ready? go!

Hmm... there's no land that's competely island... that kinda shoots my plans for points spending. Any chance we could include Iceland/the Shetlands/Orkneys/Faroes to the North? That'd be a cool 7th nation/earldom.

Could I guess, but we'd rather not have NPC territories, so that means an additional need of a player.

what do you know, Caladonn... we changed the map. just for you :D

the isle of man is a free port and unclaimable.

and... the new map will go up as soon as Terra has time and a lack of posting problems [jolt or the image hositing place or something are being screwy]

Really? On the map it looks like the Isle of Man is part of the Northern Irish state... Also, it's not exactly like an entire nation.

We could possibly just find one other committed player, who's a good RPer- that probably wouldn't be very hard.

the updated one isn't there yet.

Terra was having problems putting it up.

ireland is about half reduced in size and all one teritory, giving you your "island nation"

whatever that island just north of wales is is part of the 'welsh' teritory

and the isle of man is a free port.

as of the updated map that isn't up there yet.

Ah, ok, looks good... I'll wait for that to come up then.

Actually, I'm not waiting... I came up with a list already.

I noticed some things that might need changing though... you have like 64 points in yours I believe.

I think the naval stuff is a bit expensive. To get a top-of-the-line British-style navy, with elite crews/weapons and such, (according to my reckoning) costs 147 points! Obviously I don't want all ship types, probably only Frigates, Heavy Frigates, and 74-gun SOTL, but 48 points (Counting making them generally experienced) is prohibitively expensive, literally.

I'd suggest letting you buy elite crews/weapons, marines on ships, and generally more experienced sailors as a one-time cost, instead of for each ship type. In addition, having marines on ships was pretty much the norm at that time; I don't think there should be an additional cost for it.

Also, how come the best dockyards are 18 points? I think that's one of the most expensive things possible, even more expensive than Venice-like canals or Congreve rockets. If naval deployment is that expensive, perhaps a land building like a barracks needed to recruit troops would work.

Other than that, perhaps horses should be a resource... you could have different quality of the resource instead of just different quality horses, and not having horses would grant you some extra points.

Finally, I just have two clarifications: firstly, what exactly is a schooner? Is it like a sloop or something? It seems odd that it's more expensive than a Frigate. Secondly, what are the differences between marines and land-based troops? I know you mentioned the wooden ramrods, and there's presumably some sort of specialized training, but that's hardly any more complicated than the training given to Light Infantry.

And finally (I really mean that this time), you did a great job on this whole list. It's a revolutionary concept and a good rough-draft, don't think that I'm trying to pick on you just because I'm confused about some things :)

what you'll find is that, except for the resorces, this points system is not what you Have, it's what you're Capable of. [ note that this does not preclude individual units with lots of experiance becoming defacto guard troops, for example. on the Other hand, it stops you producing guard units right out of the barracks.]

that's why it doesn't do quality Vs quantity properly.

also, if you look at the list of things i have there, [and i ran it through a calculator] there are quite a few negatives [primaraly in the navy]

i think i was taking, all up about a 23 point reduction in costs. [give or take]

schooners are ships that are rigged Very differently from your standard combat ship. every single boom has a 360 degree range of motion around the mast, for one thing. the americans gave the british navy hell with these on several occasions, simply because the ships that were big enough to kill them, weren't agile enough to hit them.

they can turn pretty much on the spot, too. i think i sloop is somehow related, but i can't remember exactly what the relationship is. it may be "shooner rigged" ships, rather than "schooners" in which case it should be a modifyer and i can change it, but i don't think so.

i was having trouble thinking of ways to split the ships equivilant to the infantry ratings, thus why it ended up with the crew and weaponary modifyers

reguarding "over all navel personal" or whatever i called it... i defined the levels wrong. the 'conscript' type includes admirals and captains mostly sellected for reasons other than ability, pressganged and poorly trained crew... anything that can be bad about the navy as a whole. the inverse modifyer is the inverse effect.

then you get the bright/dark spots in the form of the various different ratings on different ship types.

end of the day it comes down to this: ships are Complex. infantry had been running around effectivly for a long time, as had cav and [to a lesser extent] artillary. this is, however, the first ERA when you get effective combat ships that arn't either horribly flawed in design, or essentually floating land battlefields. or at least hte most significant one.

the biggest thing with marines is that they had to be able to fight on ships as sailors, be skilled enough in the handling of small boats that they could land under fire from forts, enemy infantry and the like, be accustomed to the sea, and still be able to fight as reliable line infantry as well.

they also often doubled as sailors and gunners.

as you can see, light infantry, while specialists, are specialists at a subset of normal activity. marines, on the other hand, are specialists at things well outside normal infantry stuff.

hehe. there was some brief discussion about the various ships Requireing certain levels of dockyard. that got scraped when it was noticed that 100 gun SOTLs with nothing else was outside the range of "things you can get"



i did have a system when i worked out the values, but i forget exactly how it worked, and it was kind of rough.

anyways. it is possible to build 100 gun SOTLs out of basic shipyards.

it'll take ages and you probibly won't be able to build much else at the same time, but it's doable.

the best shipyards could, on the other hand, probibly crank out several at once, as well as some smaller ships, and build them faster. crew would be more of a challange than hulls.

with the navy, even if you focus on it, no one used All that stuff with any great effect...

you can, for example, have really poor ships of one type, and good ships of another. think of it as variations in design.

example: the british navy, while it had excilant crew and standardised amunition, the actual ships were pretty rubbish. if i remember rightly they were outdone in ship Quality by every other navel power. certainly by the french!

if you add up all the army stuff, it's probibly worse than the navy.

no matter what you do, you cannot have the perfect force. that's kind of the point in this system.

origianly, i had guard 12 pounders and dragoon, 6 pound howitzers that could fire shrapnal, and all sorts of other stuff.

interestingly, there is nothing precluding you from Buying a 100 gun ship off someone else who has that capacity, even if you don't. you just can't reasonably set up to build them yourself [without a LOT of rp and time, at any rate]

apparantly the database is having problems... and i think i had more to say than i have said. but it escapes me.

ok.. haveing recalculated it, i discovered i made an error in my points totals.

however, looking at the effect, rather than change my points spending, i'm going to increase the number of points available to everyone.


your total available points to spend is now 60 [as apposed to the previous 50]

still not enough for Everything you want, but.... :)

not to menion it covers my over spending perfectly :D

Fresh map with redrawn territories. Please ignore all previous maps.

Here. (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=73179979&imageID=1355292171)

Extra 10 points? should be useful...
What happened to the new OOC thread you were doing?

i was waiting on the final map, and for everyone to actually confurm that they were active...

i guess we can play it with only three if push comes to shove, So...

i'll do it now :)

and i figured you'd like 'em :D

alrighty.

offical occ thread is up!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11876591#post11876591

slightly modified points list, links to map and so on on the first page...

just got to have everyone set up their nations and we're good to go :D

in typical style i'll probibly recycle a bunch of charicters along the way.

meanwhile, i need to redo my points list, caladonn and terra might too to allow for some [minor] adjustments made to the list...

anyway, this thread is now obsolete for most purposes.

go check out the offical ooc thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11876591#post11876591)

Yea, sorry anger. Count me out for now. I may be more free for rp'ing later. So keep some NPCs around if possible.

Cheers.

this thread is being religated to the "referance only pile"

sadly [ok, not sadly, but sadly in that joining later might be tricky], it doesn't look like there'll be any NPC nations at this rate.