NationStates Jolt Archive

This is the OOC thread for this RP.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11833420#post11833420

Nations taken:
Italy ~ Voxio
France ~ Hok-Tu
Britain ~ Caladonn
Mexico ~ Vineyard
Pyschotika ~ Korea
Russia ~ Neo-Erusea
Argentina ~ No Taxes
Belgium ~ [NS:]Delesa
Serbia ~ Generic Empire
Ottoman Empire ~ Zelron
Japan ~ Terror Incognitia
Austria-Hungary ~ Moorington
Prussia/Germany ~ Gibraltarland
[NS]ICCD-Intracircumcordei ~ Brazil
United States of America ~ Beautancus

Special ~ Kroando

Think we should make a thread for the Franco-Prussian war.

I say start a thread for anything.. that is issued.

I think that using this thread to keep track of turns days and time may be useful too so we know approximately where we are at. and can use it as a technology base. atleast in general

Like this is what now day two to three so it is fall of 1870?

Imperio O Brazilia Trade Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11840743#post11840743)

Hey, I just wanted to point out that though it says that the Scramble for Africa is on... in 1870, it really isn't. The major beginning was in 1881, when the French conquered Tunisia and the British occupied Egypt, although things leading up to it were occuring from 1876. Of course, we can start things a bit early, but Africa's not really a major focus right now.

Wait, um, let me get this straight... Brazil, you're attacking... the British Empire? You do realise that we have a larger fleet than the next two great powers, and Brazil isn't even on that list?

It was done in secret and you have no reasonable garrisons or fleets in the south atlantic.

it was essentially a raid, done in a way that no one was suppose to find out.

We can still RP if you'd like, I did the historical research on the area.

====

You have one store ship at ascension Island and a one ship comes from britain every month to check in

you have a small volunteer militia and the islands populations may be up to a few thousand. (40+% former black african slaves)

-the ships leave port on operations with secret orders to assemble
-the commanders then put up the british flag when approaching the first island after explaining to the crew that this operation is a secret that no one is to find out about.
- the islands are then to be taken from the south west with crew and supplies being left behind as non required with a combat garrison and some guns.

- the populations are then to be "masacred" or taken prisoner on the ships. The supplies are then to be stored on a remote Brazilian Island until they can be covertly smuggled to other locations.

The islands are then to be raized burning and destroying as much of the islands as posible, from whatever could not be confiscated.

it isn't an official attack on the British Empire, it is more like a pirate raid.

An attempt to make the islands inoperable and shift focus to the suez canal as a shippng area.


----
So officially we are not declaring war on britain, however part of the brazilian fleet is to have pirate raided the islands, to remove the british presence (all presence.. pirate the ships that are there if any any.. and remove the population, and destroy the infrastructure.

brazil isn't attempt to "keep the islands" just sack them and make them inoperable.

In my mind the British empire shouldn't find out who did it.. BUT if you'd like to RP it then maybe somehow they can find out, however it is apretty clean crime, as all the stops have been covered.


As weird as it might seem.. it is american ships that patrol that area, not british. and the islands are remarkably neglected and isolated.

there is no fleet stationed there. the closest fleets are in the port of good hope. in south afria, and no cable link exists.


This operation is so secret that the people involved would be monitored or deployed to a remote island after the occurance. And the local preists or their chaplains would actually be part of the new Brazilia 'Secret Police'. so that anyone who confessed the acts could be cut off from the papalcy information, and be ferreted out as breaking the royal secrecy of the acts.

any ships taken were to be retrofitted at a secret harbour at that same island and the island was to be sealed off from outside visitors for the time being.

The ships after being refited were to return sporadicaly to a Brazilian port the opeations and even the crew listings were to be altered, and the operation completely hidden from the records or knowledge but the close inner circle of the empire and his naval commander and the lead officers on the ships.

A recruitment drive to replace the crews who were relocated is to have been merged in with the the process to replace any crew killed or redeployed to the remote island.


No traces were to have been left on the islands. Even fresh clothes were to be worn during the attacks, of british origin where posible.

The ships were to be loaded with any booty from the attacks including prisoners who were to be put in place of balast etc.. the balasts themselves to be jetosined in deep water

1871 now? was jolt down for a day for everyone? should that add another three months for the day it was down?

also

now do we handle NPC countries? for instance mexico's intervention in central america and brazils intervention in Bolivia?

do we just approximate for instance a 2000 person force would be wiped out by a 20,000 person force ? what gives for non played areas?

Well, Brazil, you're free to go through with this, but you can't just massacre entire islands without someone surviving. There'll be at least a few survivors, and in all probability one or two that realize that it's Brazil that's attacking.

And then, trust me, you'll have hell to pay.

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;11853308']1871 now? was jolt down for a day for everyone? should that add another three months for the day it was down?

also

now do we handle NPC countries? for instance mexico's intervention in central america and brazils intervention in Bolivia?

do we just approximate for instance a 2000 person force would be wiped out by a 20,000 person force ? what gives for non played areas?

Well, there's a war going on right now, so time advences a month = a day.

NPCs will be played by another nation willing to take over for them.

Well, Brazil, you're free to go through with this, but you can't just massacre entire islands without someone surviving. There'll be at least a few survivors, and in all probability one or two that realize that it's Brazil that's attacking.

And then, trust me, you'll have hell to pay.


hey if you think it is posible people would surive then we can rp that, but within reasonable grounds, there is no way that the fleet commander would let anyone survive, but people are able to hide.. but buildings, forests and such would be started on fire that can't be sacked. so sure I admit someone could survive but it'd probably be best to RP it.. also I don't think the person would have the full idea of what happened.. as there is "disinformation" in the fleet flags dress etc..

so yes it is posible, that they would know it was brazil might be a stretch.. that it was portugeuse probably more likely. but even brazil has mulatos etc.. so it might be hard to pinpoint especially if any survivors only see a small group of the invasion forces.

point taken though.. RP it we can see what happens with it.

---

I think they might think it was some sort of pirate or slavers raid or something... but lets rp it. I'll be fair.. but the plan of the attack was to massacre a weak spot, not start a war... but it is only fair it is played out.

can i get a volunteer to be the bolivian forces.. or even what is left of paraguay (even though it was after their military defeat in history) if anyone contests my man handling them.

bolivia is pretty big. I did some historical reasearch on them...
but yah.. any takers to do bolivia's resistance if so?

ICCD-Intracircumcordei;11857112']hey if you think it is posible people would surive then we can rp that, but within reasonable grounds, there is no way that the fleet commander would let anyone survive, but people are able to hide.. but buildings, forests and such would be started on fire that can't be sacked. so sure I admit someone could survive but it'd probably be best to RP it.. also I don't think the person would have the full idea of what happened.. as there is "disinformation" in the fleet flags dress etc..

so yes it is posible, that they would know it was brazil might be a stretch.. that it was portugeuse probably more likely. but even brazil has mulatos etc.. so it might be hard to pinpoint especially if any survivors only see a small group of the invasion forces.

point taken though.. RP it we can see what happens with it.

---

I think they might think it was some sort of pirate or slavers raid or something... but lets rp it. I'll be fair.. but the plan of the attack was to massacre a weak spot, not start a war... but it is only fair it is played out.
Well, I don't think there's much chance of inhabitants surviving the attack, but I do believe there is a telegraph connection to there, so I will have substantial warning of the attack. It's quite possible something will give away the fact that the attack is Brazilian; since the Napoleonic wars a listing of most naval ships has been kept, and most ships have subtle distinguishing characteristics.

Even without that, the combination of a fleet flying the British flag off of Brazil, and the islands completely destroyed, isn't a very hard deduction to make. And it's not very likely you'll be able to catch those trading ships; they're cutters, the smallest and fastest ships of this era, and they aren't carrying guns, so they'll be faster than warships.

EDIT: And, you really can't expect to attack my colonies and not have me respond... I don't really know why you did it in the first place, they're really just small, languishing trading posts. This'll do more than anything to increase my strength in the South Atlantic, and perhaps turn Brazil into a Protectorate.

The islands are fairly large over 10km long in some cases and relatively rocky etc.. so I still think a couple might survive if they hid under rocks or something. If it was "long term" like staying and searching the island for a month it would make sense they may be all killed. Any survivors would have to survive for under a month prolly 3 weeks till another ship came.. it is posible, especially if they can salvage any stores etc.. as there is a freshwater spring on one of the islands.. if I left a garison behind then that is another matter.. also it isn't acomplete cakewalk ascension island may have a small contigent of royal marines.. so you may even inflict a reasonable number of casualties. st. helena actually is a risk as well, there is a local volunteer garison (commanded by a british admiral and a fairly large population (over a thousand) that may be able to put up some resistance).

there isn't any telegraph connections there as far as I am aware, if you can show me somewhere that cooroborates it that is another matter. As even brazil recently got their first connection, and the island didn't have any phone services cable etc.. as far as I am aware. even today they only have limited communications capacity.

A lot of my ships are after the napoleanic wars, while it is posible you may recognize some ships, I don't think it would necisarily be general knowledge to do so. (especially the ships built in the last 5 years that havn't made port calls there)

Some ships do but the thing is though some of the ships are british built if i'm remembering correctly (heck the commander of the brazilian navy less than a decade ago (1860 etc.. was a british officer)

The fleet would have assembled well off the coast of brazil. I think that christan de cuhna island will be an easy take, st. helena will be a battle but I should have the advantage due to overwhelming naval superiority, the ground fight could get ugly though, with brazilian causualties, where as ascension island will be tricky, because there is only one place of landing, and a small british garison. if the attack was conducted 10 years ago it'd have a great chance of failure, but recently most of the british forces were removed, and shipping transfered to the suez canal.

Trade ships are generally sail, coal powered steam ships (screw ships.. hich are in my fleet are actually said to be faster from the information I've read. I don't like the foil.. I think a surivivor or two might be reasonable, but in order to see the flag, and not be seen and then outrun the military ships diverting your course for? where are you going? if you leave trade winds you are already obviously going against the wind.. as my ships would be using trade winds.. it is fishy..

I do expect to attack your colonies and not get a response (logically), but i think that it may start to show, for instance you may not know who did it now.. but depending on future developments.. it may be easier to geuss who did it.. there are only so many posibilities.. but I think it would be better if you just accept you had a weak spot and maybe increase your antipirate presence in the area or something.. as honestly it should go off without any hitches.. but st. helena and ascension arn't 100% I think I have a fairly good chance with half the brazilian fleet to pull it off since you don't have any real defences there... why not just play with it?

If you get reasonable evidence then why not.. but really in all honesty the places are toast, and in game you shouldn't have a reason to attack brazil. of course some type of counter occurance or investigation say scotland yard etc.. could occur.. play with it.. I understand britain could go to war with brazil but I think it should take some serious role playing to put together the peices. In real life brazil prolly wouldn't go to war with britain since they are pretty good allies, but this game is about doing something different. they were originally portuegeuse discovered islands anyway.


It is also posible that if your ships get to a cable site and my ships arn't back in port then it could cause issue, that is partly why planned on trickling my ships back and altering the records.

Indeed, I do agree that there's not really much chance of St. Helena and the other islands not being razed to the ground.

However, I've seen a map of the cables of the Atlantic in 1885, and there are undersea cables connecting St Helena to London via the Cape Verde Islands. Obviously this is significantly earlier, but I recall that the cable between Freetown and St Helena was built before the longer-distance one, and it certainly wouldn't be the most difficult cable laid; after all, in the 1860s, an undersea cable was laid between North America and London, which is over twice the distance, and that probably would have been built earlier if it weren't for the Civil War.

There actually was a great deal of trade between Britain and the East at this time, going around the Horn. Much of this was in perishable cargoes such as tea, and so it's common sense that many of the merchant ships plying these trade routes would be the fastest ships available at this time- small, sleek steam-cutters that could make the journey in little time and thus preserve the cargo. I have no doubt that such ships would outrun bulky warships or frigates sent to chase them.

As for the ships, there was a listing of the ships in foreign navies in the Royal Navy at this time, and upon the appearance of unexpected and potentially hostile ships, that's obviously the first thing consulted. If these ships were built by Britain, and then sent to Brazil, that makes it both harder and easier to discover their true nature: To the untrained eye, they'll look like British ships, and the ruse would be complete; but from the ship listing, it would be quite clear that these were ships of British manufacture that were sold to Brazil.

I don't expect to get proof from this, of course, but consider: A strange cable is relayed to Freetown about an attack on St Helena with ships bearing British flags, but that were sold to Brazil years before; then, reports come in from merchant ships that were chased across the Atlantic after sighting that same fleet, off the Brazillian coast. Next, British merchant ships along the Brazillian coast have recently been attacked constantly, while those of every other nation save Prussia are safe (And no, piracy's not a good explanation; it was practically dead by the Napoleonic Wars, and this is 60 years later). Finally, when traders come to restock St Helena and the other southern islands, they find either a Brazillian garrison or a completely destroyed land, with possibly a few starved survivors telling tales of an enemy that came and killed everyone on the islands.

It doesn't take a genius to put the facts together; and, in fact, the British government has its share of genii already.

And no, I don't dispute your ability to be able to do this assault; I've learned that on NS threads, it's pretty much everything goes for what you can do with your nation, realistic or not. I deplore your lack of realism in simply wishing to "do something different;" this is about doing alternate history, certainly, but this borders on the ludicrous.

just wondering how maximillian of austria hungary is shipping the 10,000 troops.. and if this is public knowledge. If it is public knowledge then brazil will be placed on high alert of an impending invasion.

wonder what is going on with south atlantic.. does britain insist on having hips in the almost antartic ocean area? my gosh whalers are even rare in that area. a whaler might make more sense even, but whatever, if you somehow insist on a fluke that you have ships travllling from south from the tristan de cuhna islands
then up to brazil, then I geuss I don't have much of a choice, if there is going to be progress I just find it terribly unrealistic. (but then again I'm massacreing the british.. so whatever)the seawinds go "north west not south west or west.. it dosn't make much sense a ship would sail south out of the trade winds/currents.

apparently you are partially correct this is the telegraph cronology as far as I know of

1806
The St. Helena Telegraph System installed, the first
outside Europe, to replace signal guns previously
used to warn of attack.

(for the island)

1899 In November the first submarine cable was landed by the
Eastern Telegraph Company. This connected the Island
to Cape Town and was the first stage in the link north
to Ascension and thence to Europe and England.

much later then the date you put forth.. we can look into it more.

I'm uner the impression the island had their own telegraph system.. but no off island cable system.. before after the date we are at.

from what i read about shipping in that area at the time, actually, there wasn't allot of shipping, with the opening of the suez canal trade got hit big time, and a few odd ships and the monthly supply ship (I think it may have been a royal mail carrier) was it. there was a big drop on the island, hard economic times., they didn't have much there at the time. I think it is posible there may be one ship there.. but I'm taking the southern route to tristan de cuhna island "the most remote island on the planet" as it is spring -summer when this was suppose to occur in 1870.

screw ships were some of the fastest ships around.. ironclads for that matter were the fastest and most manovrable ships in the fleets (I didn't send my coastal battleships though...) rest assured my ships are very good ships. and although I would have to do more research, i have see pictures and stats/description of them. I think detecting ships exactly would be rather difficult, a screw ship is a screw ship a frigate is a frigate, although there may be sublet differences, from 1 km out (or 10km out) etc.. it may be difficult to identify them.. even with binoculars.. looking out to sea at a ship..you can see the ship but details are rather harsh "out to sea" and out of biggun ranges

although I think there is a "slight" chance to identity the type of the ship.. identifying the "exact ship" would be rather difficult, especially if the ship had never been seen before, as there are a lot of ships hundreds perhaps that are in that class globally. In this case though.. "it may be posible", I think that a 1 or 2% chance might exist to identify the exact ship.. by some "fluke" but no I dont think it is very probably. Identifying the ship type.. an experience salor.. probably around 45% chance depending on what type of a look and how far out.. size wize 90% but origin woud be that 45%. .. a very experienced sailor maybe add 10% to it. A normal person cut the ammounts in 1/3rd. so 30% of size and maye 15% on type, and maybe 5% or less on oragin.. and exactness would be a fraction of a percent.

*start rolling*

heh.. I'm think that the best chance for getting evidence would be some survivor on the island knowing that "many ships came like over 3.. and that narrows it down.. perhaps they would have the sizes of 3 ships.. but the time frame of the attack is also known.. so the investgators would know it was moe then three ships.. then it is a matter of who has that many ships.. and using intelligence or knowledge which ships wern't at harbou.. it would probably narrow it down to brazil, US, spain, the dutch and portugal.. maybenot even portugal but brazil us spain (most likely) but getting information more then that may take some more.. in game it is not likely it would be any of them.. and maybe it could have been slavers..? but I think it could be writteen out.. how it developes.. I'd like to be critical of your case.

There were stil some pirate and slavers.. just not as common. it got mostly busted down in the 1860's brazil had made the slave trade illegal.. but slavery itself was legal in brazil until around 1888

I wasn't going to garison St. Helenas.. I was using tristan de cuhna.. as a base of operations. after hitting st. helena, ships would return to tristan de cunha, drop off materials, then head to ascension island, but i may not even hit ascension depending on how the st. helena raid goes.


Nah british had it too easy. just letting you be a superpower doesn't cut it, when I can make you work for your "lands" it is like a village in britain (like only a few thousand people, and a relatively poor area, they were a dependancy for crying out loud.. I'm actually helping you by erasing it of the map.

Yeah... helping me by taking my territory. Definitely. You could have even asked to buy it, and I would have considered and probably sold it, but instead you go onto this whole piracy thing, with cannibalism even, and expect no one to notice.

It's true that there was less trade around the Horn after the Suez Canal was built, but it certainly wasn't cut down completely. If you have a large fleet moving in the South Atlantic, what with Britain having the largest merchant marine in the world, it's eminently reasonable that one or two ships would spot you, probably more.

The whole recognizing the ship would only be by experienced sailors on the island; there's not really any chance of that happening from long ranges by the crew on the Mary of Wales, and such.

And no, there's really no chance of this being piracy or slavers; the Royal Navy has, since 1834, been zealously working to clear the seas of both- Parliament even authorised a payment of a certain number of pounds per slave freed to ships in the RN. Really, the only chanced here are you, the US and Spain. The US is just recovering from the Civil War, has decommissioned the vast majority of its fleet, and is beginning the process of reconstruction. Spain's navy is ridiculously old and obsolete, not to mention they have absolutely nothing to gain by attacking British posts in the South Atlantic.

That, by process of elimination, leaves Brazil, with a reasonably modern fleet, and the most (though still very little) to gain from destroying the British dependencies in this area. Corroborate this with two sightings of a strange fleet with British flags, one off the Brazillian coast and one further out to sea, and the case is pretty obvious.

Yeah... helping me by taking my territory.
I'm not actually taking it I'm just laying waste to it. you can always attempt to rebuild there, if I succeed in the attacks.


Oh I tend to agree it wasn't completely stopped just much less frequent (like maybe a couple ships a month, I havn't seen the shipping logs though. I do know there was one regular ship, and the island was under pretty hard financial times, their attempt at starting sea based economy failed and within two years from now they would start to attempt to farm flax, they also migrated to port of good hope due to financial hardships.


If you have a large fleet moving in the South Atlantic, what with Britain having the largest merchant marine in the world, it's eminently reasonable that one or two ships would spot you, probably more.

I would agree if it were taking a "normal sea based route, however the attack fleet is taking a very southern route that only whalers would be around (and whaling was pretty light by 1870.


The whole recognizing the ship would only be by experienced sailors on the island; there's not really any chance of that happening from long ranges by the crew on the Mary of Wales, and such.

I can understand if an experienced sailor would have information on ship type and size, and by some extreme fluke even identifying a ship exactly. Part of the issue is that many of my ships were built in the late 1860's so they are quite new, and chances are the people on the island wouldn't have been exposed to them. but true there is a chance. And I think that is reasonableto incorporate into the attacks on the island.

As for pirating in the south atlantic... sure I think that the merchant marine would have good chance of knowing brazil was in the waters.. but the cover they are using is "counter piracy" so it is like a cover for a cop who i dealing drugs.. .. they may say he was dealing, but he claims he was arresting the dealers etc.. who are they going to beleive? You got to get evidence. In the case of piracy though my ships would be very safe in making sure only isolated ships that were "catchable" 'vunerable ships' were preyed on. Although it is pretty rare, but the brazilian fleet would likely have some knowledge of what ships were coming down, in prearanged busines, and perhaps the sea route they would take to intercept them, not a 100% though. but part of the "safetys is" why would brazil hurt it's own economy? afteralll attacking your own trade doesn't help does it? That is part of it right there.. you see brazil is getting the trade but not paying for it, and maybe hitting some of the wealthy that criticize the empire, or are political enemies.

The 'real' hard part is keeeping it under wraps. That is why the navy is being weeded out. by asking questions like would you commit piracy if ordered to, etc.. to get onl y those that are most loyal on the ships. but asking insignifigant questions as well. Then deploying the "good guys" on the new ships under construction.

There is also going to be a recruitment drive as well. it isn't all good, I'm actually damaging brazil in the process of doing this. Since I now have around 3000 of the military tied up in a secret plot, I have to doctor records, :and cover the situation up" which isn't easy.








The US is just recovering from the Civil War, has decommissioned the vast majority of its fleet. What happened to the fleet? was it converted? also the us was patroling that area.... although not doing a very effective job of it.

Although I think spain has just as much reason of attacking the islands as Brazil, as well the us.. actually I think the US is the best target, as they historically are known to fabricate things (like the start of the spanish american war) and are known to lie, be treasonous and otherwise dishonourablle.



As for piracy and slaving.. it was still occuring just not "overly active"

there is still piracy in the world. mostly just in asia and africa though


in the end though.. it is those former navy that are being weeded out and put on alternate duties, that would be used as "fall guys" so it is pretty well covered. I understand you'd like to insure you have a chance for "revenge" but oddly.. we are damaging ourselves and you by doing it.. it is attrition. i'm willing to give bits and peices but i suggest putting it together reaosnbly in the play.. like having some officers flee to the interior of the island and hide after the attacks start.. or maybe an officer telling a child etc.. in the chaos of the attacks though it would be pretty chaotic.. perhaps one person know something.. or a letter is secetly put under a rock.. and later found explaining what happened etc..

so I think it may be reasonable evidence will ammount against brazil, and brazil will likely attempt to deny it. and ultiamtely they will claim there was a conspiracy in the fleet.. and use the "marooned sailors" as fall guys or traitors... stating they were the ones behind the attacks.