NationStates Jolt Archive

Background:
In March of 1911 Argentina sends its army across the border into Bolivia. A series of battles shatters the defending army but weak supply lines and inclement weather leave Argentina in control of only part of the country. Brazil immediately condemns the move and issues an ultimatum to Argentina as it mobilizes its forces.

At this point the United States of America steps in as an ally to both nations, demanding that both send delegates to Washington DC in April for talks on the situation that will be mediated by the US. It is fervently hoped that peace can be achieved, especially as Europe has chosen this moment to descend into what looks to be the most terrible war the world has ever seen...

OOC: Sharina, post your defense first and the Brazilians can issue a rebuttal. Go at it for a bit if you please--US will speak up when it has heard out both sides.

The Argentinan delegate arrives at the talks and then gets down to business.

"We were led to believe that the Bolivian government was growing more hostile towards Argentina and was preparing to attack even more Argentinian civilians within Bolivia. This issue has had continued since the Chileans funded covert ops and turned the Bolivian government and people aganist Argentina.

We decided it was time to put a stop to that, eliminate all anti-Argentinian elements within Bolivia, and install a stable government. Bolivia isn't exactly known for a stable government and society.

We are not only removing the anti-Argentinian elements and erasing all Chilean influence in Bolivia. We are on a major humanitarian mission as well, bringing much needed food, water, medicine, and supplies to the Bolivian civilians. We have witnessed thousands of Bolivians starve, lack medicine, or not having access to clean water. Our troops are providing the Bolivian civilians with much needed relief and supplies that the Bolivian government has failed to provide the Bolivian people with.

You may send observers to witness the humanitarian mission if you wish. We are committed to helping the Bolivian people from its former government, and protect the Bolivian people from further starvation, disease, and suffering from the Bolivian government."

The Brazilian delegate quickly offers counter-points to Argentina’s “justifications”:

"We were led to believe that the Bolivian government was growing more hostile towards Argentina and was preparing to attack even more Argentinian civilians within Bolivia. This issue has had continued since the Chileans funded covert ops and turned the Bolivian government and people aganist Argentina.

We decided it was time to put a stop to that, eliminate all anti-Argentinian elements within Bolivia, and install a stable government. Bolivia isn't exactly known for a stable government and society.

“And your solution to this is war? There are many governments that don’t like other countries. Since when does Argentina get to decide Bolivian politics? If there were crimes against Argentine citizens, you could have come to Brazil, Chile, or even the United States to form an organized, peaceful approach to this. From what information we’ve gathered, the Bolivian government had just fallen into political turmoil before your invasion. A stable, democratic government could have easily been installed, especially with Brazilian and/or Chilean assistance. Eliminating “anti-Argentine” elements is a clear case of Argentina trying to install a corrupt, puppet government. In other words, you have just admitted that you were trying to eliminate political enemies of Argentina so that a stranglehold could be secured over the Bolivian people. Most political unrest in Bolivia has actually been a direct results of WARS and other outside influences. As an example, you have already admitted that the recent coup was a result of Chilean involvement, not Bolivia’s own instability.

We are not only removing the anti-Argentinian elements and erasing all Chilean influence in Bolivia.

Why is it Argentina’s responsibility to remove “Chilean influence”? Does Chile not have the same right as Argentina to influence its neighbors? This seems more like a clear case of jealousy on Argentina’s part.

We are on a major humanitarian mission as well, bringing much needed food, water, medicine, and supplies to the Bolivian civilians. We have witnessed thousands of Bolivians starve, lack medicine, or not having access to clean water. Our troops are providing the Bolivian civilians with much needed relief and supplies that the Bolivian government has failed to provide the Bolivian people with.

Humanitarian mission? From what I’ve heard, it sounds more like a political agenda to keep Bolivia away from democracy and make it your government’s mindless servant. Second of all, I have yet to hear that the Bolivian people are welcoming their conquerors with open arms. Aid could have been delivered through peaceful means. Instead, you send your soldiers in with their guns blazing! Second of all, the current Bolivian government had only briefly been in office before you attacked. How could you know how they would treat their citizens? With all of the chaos of the revolution, I doubt you even gave the government enough time to meet its people and learn their needs. Your invasion will only cause more chaos and prevent any hopes of the Bolivian government actually providing these services for its people!

The Argentine delegate spews only lies and half-truths. If your previous statement is the type of ridiculous non-sense that the American mediators and myself will have to listen to, I fear we’ll never be able to reach an agreement. I must ask you to stop mistaking us for fools and tell the truth."

The Argentinian delegate shakes his head at the Brazilian.

"Chile has turned Bolivia aganist us, and we had to take action.

Besides, Argentina is indeed giving food, water, and medicine to the Bolivian people from its own military stockpiles. These Bolivians have been without decent living standards for a while, before the supposed revolution. We have already issued an invitation for observers to witness the humanitarian mission Argentina is undertaking in Bolivia for proof that we do not seek to oppress the Bolivian people, but rather, to liberate them and introduce them to far better services, support, and living standards than their fifty-odd governments has done in the past century.

Now to answer your points."

Why is it Argentina’s responsibility to remove “Chilean influence”? Does Chile not have the same right as Argentina to influence its neighbors? This seems more like a clear case of jealousy on Argentina’s part.

"It was this very Chilean influence that has killed and harmed thousands of Argentinians in Bolivia since 1907. Thus, Argentina is justified in taking action not only to prevent more Chilean influence from destroying more Argentinians and Bolivians, but also to restore stability and safety to Bolivia."

“And your solution to this is war? There are many governments that don’t like other countries. Since when does Argentina get to decide Bolivian politics? If there were crimes against Argentine citizens, you could have come to Brazil, Chile, or even the United States to form an organized, peaceful approach to this. From what information we’ve gathered, the Bolivian government had just fallen into political turmoil before your invasion. A stable, democratic government could have easily been installed, especially with Brazilian and/or Chilean assistance. Eliminating “anti-Argentine” elements is a clear case of Argentina trying to install a corrupt, puppet government. In other words, you have just admitted that you were trying to eliminate political enemies of Argentina so that a stranglehold could be secured over the Bolivian people. Most political unrest in Bolivia has actually been a direct results of WARS and other outside influences. As an example, you have already admitted that the recent coup was a result of Chilean involvement, not Bolivia’s own instability.

"We cannot trust the Chileans in this matter, as it was them who caused the instability as well as the murder and harm of thousands of Argentinians since 1907.

We are not trying to install a puppet government in Bolivia. We are on a mission to help the Bolivian people, as we have already stated with our supplying the Bolivian people with the basic necessities like food, water, and medicine that the Bolivian government has neglected to provide. We seek to establish a government in Bolivia that will actually focus on the Bolivian people, and construct hospitals, schools, aqueducts, sewer systems, roads, railroads, and other modern day amenities. The Bolivian government and all of its previous incarnations have not focused on any of these projects or the betterment of the majority of its own people. The Chileans aren't helping any, as their continued influence within Bolivia means the Bolivian government will continue in its neglectful duties.

The Bolivians deserve better than to be neglected by their own government and its last fifty or so incarnations. They deserve to have all the modern amenities and a much better living standard than being stuck in poverty. They deserve hospitals, schools, jobs, wealth, and productive lives.

Argentina stands ready to provide them with each and every one of these things. If the US is in doubt of this, they are more than welcome to send observers to witness Argentinan aid and humanitarian efforts, and monitor Argentinian improvements to the Bolivian economy and infrastructure.

We have nothing to hide."

"We were led to believe that the Bolivian government was growing more hostile towards Argentina and was preparing to attack even more Argentinian civilians within Bolivia. This issue has had continued since the Chileans funded covert ops and turned the Bolivian government and people aganist Argentina.

We cannot trust the Chileans in this matter, as it was them who caused the instability as well as the murder and harm of thousands of Argentinians since 1907."

There are no credible reports of "thousands of Argentineans being murdered in Bolivia since 1907" and this is the first time the world has heard such accusations. While there was a Chilean funded rebel movement among Bolivia's indigenous peoples, the government did not view it as a threat and it never amounted to much as Chile immediately withdrew support after the impeachment of its President (every nation that had an Embassy in Bolivia would have been aware of these facts).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11693034&postcount=4

Also, if the rebels are still an organized force in Bolivia (are they GB?) the Argentineans attacked where they were not. The rebels were based mostly in the Western highlands and rainforests. Argentina attacked the Bolivian Government, which was friendly to Argentina, and seized population centers in the heart of the country.

So it would be quite obvious to everyone present at the conference that the Argentinean delegation is lying through its teeth about the supposed violence in Bolivia.

There are no credible reports of "thousands of Argentineans being murdered in Bolivia since 1907" and this is the first time the world has heard such accusations. While there was a Chilean funded rebel movement among Bolivia's indigenous peoples, the government did not view it as a threat and it never amounted to much as Chile immediately withdrew support after the impeachment of its President (every nation that had an Embassy in Bolivia would have been aware of these facts).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11693034&postcount=4

Also, if the rebels are still an organized force in Bolivia (are they GB?) the Argentineans attacked where they were not. The rebels were based mostly in the Western highlands and rainforests. Argentina attacked the Bolivian Government, which was friendly to Argentina, and seized population centers in the heart of the country.

So it would be quite obvious to everyone present at the conference that the Argentinean delegation is lying through its teeth about the supposed violence in Bolivia.

OOC:

Even though Amestria has been put on ignore in Chatzy, I will address her points in this post.

First, I was OOC'ly under the impression that Bolivia was turning anti-Argentinian because of Chilean subvertion and actions. Thus, my IC actions reflect my OOC understanding of the situation.

Second, my Argentinian delegate is speaking based off my OOC and IC knowledge, which is that Bolivia isn't friendly to Argentina after 1907 (as far as I knew).

Third, ever hear of propganda? Real life leaders always exaggerate situations in diplomacy. Maybe not thousands of Argentinians, but hundreds, yes. Its like Bush in RL "OMG! Iraq has nukes and WMD! We must invade Iraq and oust Saddam Hussein and kill Al Quaeda!" in 2003 even though Iraq didn't have nukes and Osama Bin Laden isn't in Iraq.

"We cannot trust the Chileans in this matter, as it was them who caused the instability as well as the murder and harm of thousands of Argentinians since 1907."

OOC: Is it me or have you completely ignored every attempt I've made to patch up relations? There is a new administration which has tried in earnest to patch up relations with other South American nations. Or you can just ignore international developments and continue to make your delegate look like a moron. The choice is yours.

OOC:

Even though Amestria has been put on ignore in Chatzy, I will address her points in this post.

First, I was OOC'ly under the impression that Bolivia was turning anti-Argentinian because of Chilean subvertion and actions. Thus, my IC actions reflect my OOC understanding of the situation.

Second, my Argentinian delegate is speaking based off my OOC and IC knowledge, which is that Bolivia isn't friendly to Argentina after 1907 (as far as I knew).

Third, ever hear of propganda? Real life leaders always exaggerate situations in diplomacy. Maybe not thousands of Argentinians, but hundreds, yes. Its like Bush in RL "OMG! Iraq has nukes and WMD! We must invade Iraq and oust Saddam Hussein and kill Al Quaeda!" in 2003 even though Iraq didn't have nukes and Osama Bin Laden isn't in Iraq.

1) You should have done some more research on Argentina prior to taking it over as your nation, then. At no point in time was the Bolivian state ever hostile to Argentina. Chilean subversion was, at best, an annoyance to Bolivian landowners who had field hands run off into the highlands and jungles to join bands of Indians.

2) See above.

3) Exaggeration would be a valid method of persuasion in this situation, if Argentinians had actually died because of the Bolivian rebels. You cannot exaggerate hundreds of deaths to thousands of deaths if those hundreds of deaths never occured in the first place.

In short, Sharina, stop trying to cover up what is essentially a lack of research and general knowledge on your part. It's perfectly acceptable to make mistakes (God knows I've made several since I took over France), as long as you at least make an effort to learn from them, and don't keep repeating yourself about how you were confused OOCly and thus for some reason we should take pity on you, on be more lenient ICly.

Please do not reply to this in this thread, since I've already hijacked enough space as it is. Feel free to send me a TG if you would like, however.

EDIT: Philanchez has a point. Argentina should at least honor the Chileans with a response, since they have been waiting for over a year at this point.

(OOC: I'm handling this for GB given he has the Great Eastern War to deal with.)

The Bolivian Delegations Statement

The Bolivian Ambassador to the US stands up to address those assembled.

"The Argentineans are clearly trying to conquer us and strip our independence! Bolivia shall continue to resist Argentina's illegal dishonorable invasion to the last drop of her blood. We will not surrender, nor will we accept anything less then Argentina’s complete withdrawal from Bolivia's sovereign territory."

The allegations of by Argentina that thousand of Argentinean's have been killed the Ambassador calls "an absurd lie by a dishonorable deceitful country that attacked Bolivia without even first declaring war."

The Ambassador sniffs at the Argentinean promises of aid. "Why would we consider Argentina's government trustworthy after they invaded our country without declaring war and have done everything in their power to make us helpless?! Why, I ask you, would anyone consider Argentina's government trustworthy after what they have done?!”

OOC: BTW, concerning the anti-Argentinean Indian rebels, I asked GB and they are indeed still around (although they really did little except annoy the land owning elite). However, once Argentina attacked they joined with the (new) Bolivian Government to form a united front against Argentina... So owing to the Argentinean invasion they went from the literal fringe of the country (politically, economically, geographically), the western mountains and jungles, to helping the Bolivian "army" hold the capital.

The United States is actually rather sympathetic to the idea of changing governments by force if necessary to make them more friendly. In their eyes though, the Argentinians may have had decent motives at one time, but clumsyness and other factors corrupted the attempt into the unacceptable fiasco that it is today. Still, the biggest concern for the US is whether this will upset the balance of power in South America...

Washington proposes that even with its mistake, Argentina is still one of the greater nations in South America. Brazil is as well. Just as plainly, the Bolivians are not (rating economic potential only), though they have the potential to improve. What stops Brazil and Argentina from working together for a more stable continent instead of being at each others throats over this issue?

What would it take for this type of reconciliation? Perhaps Brazil could send forces to Bolivia to assist Argentina in the humanitarian mission it claims to want to fulfill? Both nations could then depart a more stable Bolivia in a year or two. Reports would indicate Argentina is having trouble feeding its OWN army and a helping hand would be nice to have.

The Bolivian delegation makes it very clear that it’s military will continue to resist Argentinean military forces and that it will accept nothing less then an Argentinean withdrawal from Bolivia's sovereign territory.

"Bolivia and Argentina are at war following their dishonorable attack against us, and that war shall continue until they withdraw from our territory."

Meanwhile, Venezulea, Paraguay, Uruguay and Ecuador, which have all condemned Argentina's actions, offer quiet support to Bolivia’s position and lobby Washington to force Argentina’s immediate withdrawal from Bolivia.

Argentina has been nothing but a plague to South America since it cut itself from the womb of the Spanish Empire. The United States' actions in Carribbean are working towards a more stable, peaceful Central America. However, Argentina is set on constantly expanding by force without regards to life or peace. What they call humanitarian aid leaves thousands dead and just adds more land and wealth to the Argentine government.

On the other side, Brazil has been willing to give aid to any of it's neighbors that need any. The Bolivian government never once requested aid from us, most likely because of the distraction caused by Argentina and the former Chilean regime. During the insurgency, Brazilian forces were posted in Campo Grande and Rio Branco in case the rebels crossed into Brazilian territory. What did Argentina do? They waited until the time was right and then drove into the heart of Bolivia in hopes of turning the Bolivian government into a mindless puppet. What kind of democracy is this? How can this traitor attempt to sway the United States when Argentina cares nothing about freedom?

Is the American mediator not hearing the rest of South America? We demand that Argentina be held responsible for it's actions. As we speak, more people are dying. The Argentine Army is recovering for another offensive. Are you really going to wait until 100,000 Argentine soldiers burn down the Bolivian capital and slaughter it's inhabitants to realize the truth? Argentina wants nothing more than to build a massive empire to stretch across South America. What then? That's when they will turn on you, America. That's when latino forces march into D.C. and destroy the last stronghold of democracy. Is that the future you want your children to look forward to? Or will you be willing to stop Argentina now? There are three important points that must be included in the cease-fire to stop an Argentine Empire from being created:

1. The United States agrees to recognize and enforce a cease-fire between Argentina and Bolivia, Argentina and Brazil, Argentina and Chile, Argentina and Paraguay, and Argentina and Uruguay. This will stop Argentine imperialism and prevent them from threatening our nations.

2. Argentina will pay reparations to Bolivia for all damages caused by the Argentine invasion. The government of Argentina will offer an apology to those killed by Argentine soldiers. The government of Bolivia will offer an apology to citizens of Argentina killed before the invasion, if any evidence proves that such events actually took place. Argentina and Chile will both promise to never support an insurgency within Bolivia.

3. Brazil, Argentina, and Chile will agree to never fund hostile operation, whether overt or covert, against each other. Should an insurgency be supported by a third party nation (such as Bolivia or Paraguay), all three nations will discuss a reasonable solution to the issue and will attempt to stop the insurgency as peacefully as possible.

None of these points are limiting or over-demanding. All three points are very carefully thought out to not only prevent Argentine imperialism, but to prevent imperialism against Argentina. Last but not least, none of these points limit the abilities of nations (except the ability to slaughter lesser nations) or force nations to accept responsibility for actions they were not responsible for.

OOC: And Sharina, this is talking directly to the American delegate. There is no need for you to fill another page of lies and repeated statements condemning Chile.

The United States' actions in Carribbean are working towards a more stable, peaceful Central America.

OOC: nice touch...

1. The United States agrees to recognize and enforce a cease-fire between Argentina and Bolivia, Argentina and Brazil, Argentina and Chile, Argentina and Paraguay, and Argentina and Uruguay. This will stop Argentine imperialism and prevent them from threatening our nations.

2. Argentina will pay reparations to Bolivia for all damages caused by the Argentine invasion. The government of Argentina will offer an apology to those killed by Argentine soldiers. The government of Bolivia will offer an apology to citizens of Argentina killed before the invasion, if any evidence proves that such events actually took place. Argentina and Chile will both promise to never support an insurgency within Bolivia.

3. Brazil, Argentina, and Chile will agree to never fund hostile operation, whether overt or covert, against each other. Should an insurgency be supported by a third party nation (such as Bolivia or Paraguay), all three nations will discuss a reasonable solution to the issue and will attempt to stop the insurgency as peacefully as possible.

The United States finds these three points far more reasonable than the initial set of demands from Brazil at the beginning of this crisis. As such, Washington urges the Argentinans in very public terms to accept what is very likely the best deal they will get. These "reparations" to Bolivia could be construed as foreign humanitarian aid, to help that nation's people as the original intention of this invasion was in the first place.

The sooner this business is over, the sooner reconciliation can begin. A South America united in purpose has the potential to do a great deal of good in the world. (as long as it always listens to me! bwahahah..haa...i mean....::slinks off:: )

The Bolivian delegation voices its approval of all three points put forward by the Brazilian delegation and accepted by the American mediators, provided of course "cease-fire between Argentina and Bolivia" means Argentina completely withdraw from Bolivia.

The Bolivian delegation voices its approval of all three points put forward by the Brazilian delegation and accepted by the American mediators, provided of course "cease-fire between Argentina and Bolivia" means Argentina completely withdraw from Bolivia.

OOC: That was just an armistice to stop Argentina from delaying the conference long enough for his troops to recover or launching covert operations before a long-term peace treaty can be signed. For the actual peace treaty, I'll ask for complete Argentine withdrawl, American-enforced non-aggression pacts, and that type of stuff.

OOC: That was just an armistice to stop Argentina from delaying the conference long enough for his troops to recover or launching covert operations before a long-term peace treaty can be signed. For the actual peace treaty, I'll ask for complete Argentine withdrawl, American-enforced non-aggression pacts, and that type of stuff.

OOC: Well, as the terms of the cease-fire and the future peace treaty sound identical and will only be a question of dates, you can't blame the Bolivians for wanting the Argentineans out of their territory as soon as possible.

OOC: so as i understand it, Brazil, the US and Bolivia think this idea will work. The only one that needs to sign off on it now is Argentina and we will be able to move on.

The Argentinian delegate stares at the Brazilian delegate, and simply makes a single statement.

"Argentina agrees with point 2 and 3. We will not agree with point 1, as the Chileans are untrustworthy. We are, however, willing to sign a ceasefire with all other nations except Chile."

The rather exasperated Americans calmly remind Argentina that point 1 which has just been rejected is in fact quite agreeable to their interests, as it guarantees that the United States will enforce all cease-fires.

Even if the Chilean are untrustworthy, they will be able to do little without receiving the same international condemnation which Buenos Aires is unfortunately targeted by as we speak.

The Argentinian delegate stares at the Brazilian delegate, and simply makes a single statement.

"Argentina agrees with point 2 and 3. We will not agree with point 1, as the Chileans are untrustworthy. We are, however, willing to sign a ceasefire with all other nations except Chile."

an Argentine assistant delegate to the conference reminds the chief delegate of Argentina that Chile and Argentina aren't actually shooting at each other at the moment.

The Brazilian delegate begins to show his frustration.

"If the Argentines aren't even willing to stop the war for a peace conference, then what is the purpose of us even gathering in Washington? You excuses of an "untrustworthy" Chile are ridiculous. The new regime has already apologized for the antics of the previous one and has publically apologized for the incursion."

Next the Brazilian delegate addresses the mediators.

"The Argentine delegate acts this way because he knows there is no risk of punishments for his actions. He hides behind that piece of paper binding your two nations as an alliance. Withdraw this alliance and Argentina will not be so bold. The Brazilian Government will be more than willing to give peace a chance. But if the Argentine government knows 200,000 Brazilian troops could march into Buenos Aires at any given second, they will change their minds. A peace treaty would be the only option for them besides defeat and embarrassment."

n June, continued harsh weather and lack of supplies cause another 20,000 Argentine casualties. (another cavalry division is disbanded to keep everything else up to strength).

Frustration and anger sets in among the Argentine Army.. mostly directed at their government