NationStates Jolt Archive

This is an accumulation of my occasional frustration of the players that RP as "Corporations" over the months. I'm not naming any names, because I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I feel like expressing my feelings and seeing everyone Else's opinions none the less.

On the matter of economy, a number of these people seem to think that being a Corporation grants them a Be-all and End-all Economy, one that isn't bound by the rules of NSTracker, NSEconomy or the unwritten rules of fairness and good RP etiquette.

Indeed, they seem to think and claim they have a limitless defense and procurement budget, hell, one strong enough to support multiple invasions in different areas of the world, as well as the ability to maintain these armies, a uber procurement budget as well as an essentially limitless supply of "Mercenaries" to make up their armies.

Considering the above is all but impossible for any RL nation to do, as well as most NS Nations, why can Corporation, whom are typically much less rich than a full-on nation do so with deft ease?

It's utterly ridiculous, IMHO. Most of the time, the players have no decent reason and their only excuse is "We are a Corporation, we are not bound by the same rules..." and such and so.

I personally think it's poor form. And please not I'm not trying to be insulting or pushy here, as some of the best wars I have seen on II have come out of the Evil Corporation Archetype. I simply wondering how it's justifiable for the rules most of us use to adhere to dissolve so quickly because someone wants to play a Corporation.

o stop whineing

o stop whineing

Your only defense? Telling me to stop "whineing" in the face of God Modding and legitimate concerns?

Try again. :rolleyes:

ok now that you put it that way.

You're right:p

"He's got a point ya'know..." *points at Tocrowkia*

ooc: as a side note, you wouldn't happen to be Polish by any chance would you Toc?

As much as I hate going against Maldorians, I have too agree.

Formal Grievances:

- There economies seem too run on "divine providence' in which the defense budget is inexhaustible.

- As for millions of mercenaries, they're loyalty would be 70% of that of a soldier of a sovereign nation, at best. No matter what the pay, free range mercenaries will waver. (Though this is conspicuously absent in the RPing of corporations)

- Senseless imperialism. They have no regard for their population. If there population consists of humans, just because they are employees, DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT POSSES FREE WILL, in which too challenge the leadership.

-Do "employee benefits" work in place of social programs?

It is completely insensible. The only national (it cannot even be deemed as national for that matter,) loyalty consists, or Japanese style corporate loyalty, (in which, when it is challenged what happens too the employee? Is he/she fired? Then what?) and hardcore capitalism, at its most right-wing form (which I admire, but find it hard too maintain)

I post this for enlightenment, not a flame war. If someone wishes too start a flame war, in response too a formal grievance, then we certainly see, who posses the intellect in the argument.

If someone wishes too start a flame war, in response too a formal grievance, then we certainly see, who posses the intellect in the argument.

I find this section funny when your entire post, and even the quoted section, is full of grammatical errors.

I completely agree having thought and voiced these very same concerns on various platforms and stages.

I would also like to add one little comment about these so called 'Corporations.' What exactly do you (the people who control them) think makes them that different from nations? They are basically the same thing under a different name (okay, so maybe they have Board of Directors instead of a governing council, but that is just semantics). These corporations have armed forces, an economy, infrastructure (roads, utilities, etc), goods and services, political sovereignty, citizens (called 'employees')... how the hell is this any different from a nation? Once a corporation is big enough that it can be independent of a nation or nations... IT'S A NATION.

So you say there is a CEO and BoD instead of ministers and parliament... people are called employees instead of citizens... that is just changing the names; I could call my leader the Toilet Bowl, but that doesn't change what he is. You are running a Totalitarian state under different names.

(Perhaps said poorly, but true nonetheless)

OOC: DMG I sent you a TG.

OOCIC: I have though of it and nearly all corporations are unfair in some way and only do things for the profit of a few of their shareholders and executives.

"He's got a point ya'know..." *points at Tocrowkia*

ooc: as a side note, you wouldn't happen to be Polish by any chance would you Toc?

Nah, I'm a German/Italian mut.

I find this section funny when your entire post, and even the quoted section, is full of grammatical errors.

You spot gramatical errors...yet you offer no rebutle.

Case and point. :D

OOC: Man, its a bad day for Blac... I mean some random corporation RP'er. Getting attacked from all sides, both IC and OOC.

As one of the few people who RPs their corporation (Pale Rider Arms) realistically, I agree completely. Especially since corps will have less money available than countries for one simple reason: They're taxed. Even if a corp makes up 100% of a nation's economy, it still has to pay taxes to governments, or it ceases to exist. PRA is a slight exception, but that's only because there's really no seperation between PRA and the Otagian government in the first place.

You spot gramatical errors...yet you offer no rebutle.

Case and point. :D

I do find it funny how you simply came into insult Ausha, and left. Didn't even offer a defense of your self or the others.

Why should I offer a defence? For one, your opinion doesn't affect me.. At all. I also do not roleplay a corporation.

PRA is a slight exception, but that's only because there's really no seperation between PRA and the Otagian government in the first place.

Same thing with Timber Wolf Inc, the alpha wolf runs both TWI and the Dominion. Fun!

For the record, it's painfully obvious that I'm not included in this vague association of wanking corporations - obviously, as I have yet to kill a single person not actually within my own sphere of influence.

Something that annoys me to a degree that is simply inexpressible and will hopefully be rectified in the near future - but I digress!

The only reason, then, that I’m darting in here for a quick word is that all the complaints I’ve heard thus far aren’t really specific to corporations, if you think about it.

Just bad RPers.

Endless resources, perfectly loyal troops, ‘senseless’ imperialism – this is true of everyone on these boards who doesn’t think about what it is they’re writing, writes even that very poorly, and then fails to take constructive criticism to heart. It sounds like your issue is not so much with having run into a series of crappy corporations lately so much as having run into a series of crappy writers. I don't know who you're talking about, so I don't mean anyone in particular any disrespect, but that is all I think there is to it.

Also, DMG, while your contention has some merit, I think the point for some people is to have an extremely capitalist autocracy under another name. It has its advantages – there’s no social contract to ignore, for one thing. The simple fact is that corporations of the size to which you are referring are essentially nation states, but there’s no reason to be up in arms about it.

I do find it funny how you simply came into insult Ausha, and left. Didn't even offer a defense of your self or the others.

Finally! Someone takes notice!

Also, DMG, while your contention has some merit, I think the point for some people is to have an extremely capitalist autocracy under another name. It has its advantages – there’s no social contract to ignore, for one thing. The simple fact is that corporations of the size to which you are referring are essentially nation states, but there’s no reason to be up in arms about it.

I'm clearly not up in arms about it. And I have no problem with people calling their nation's corporations and 'running them as such' (whatever that means), but please don't say that (not you, just anyone) "I'm a corporation... I can hire millions of mercenaries because I rake in bajillions of dollars.

W/e, I'm not explaining it well... but everyone knows what I mean.

As one of the few people who RPs their corporation (Pale Rider Arms) realistically, I agree completely. Especially since corps will have less money available than countries for one simple reason: They're taxed. Even if a corp makes up 100% of a nation's economy, it still has to pay taxes to governments, or it ceases to exist. PRA is a slight exception, but that's only because there's really no seperation between PRA and the Otagian government in the first place.

You do understand that you negated your own argument, right?

I'd also say that a few corporations are so large that they've outgrown public sector oversight. Conquest Incorporated, for example, absorbed the nation it originally inhabited. As a 'self-governing corporate entity', I don't pay taxes. Hell, I might even have more money available because I don't particularly care to help the poor. Heh. Or really anyone at all that's not already helping themselves.

People really can't RP as corporations: very few prosper during wartime. What with factories being bombed, employees dying, and the mess of other things that make the entire system unstable, and wrecks the entire idea behind a corporation: to make money. As far as corporate states go, well that is infinitely more feasible. People just have to realize that the people in their nation will not appreciate having their standard of living go down due to war, so will be ardantly against the prospect of conflict from the beginning. Though this is NS: and the only people who play realistically are realism fuckholes, and they're no better.

Well, I both agree and disagree (dammit, I'm conflicting again).

Corporations should definately still be bound by economic realism, but it is much harder to track. They shouldn't be based off of any one nation (as they would not have the entire GDP of their home nation, possibly with few exceptions), and thus getting any idea of how much they make would have to come from them, based off their experiences ie: if they take over a nation and enslave its populance, then they will likely get all of their money, making the number easier to track. But if they run inside another nation elsewhere, as the person whom I believe you are talking about does within my nation, then the cash that they get should be all but pure fabrification.

As for employee stuff, I believe that the mentioned Japanese style loyalty (or, as they call it in my region, Errikan style loyalty (or at least they should :D)), when coupled with a little brainwashing could constitute up to and perhaps more than 70%, but not much more.

Now, what I do not understand (of New Ausha's point) what do social programs have to do with anything? My nation has no social programs, unless you count education, and zelous nationalism is one of our three noble truths (admittedly, the loyalty is to the NATION, which is much more than merely the STATE, which has very little public loyalty). But now I'm off talking about me.

As for all of this crap about grammar, it is okay to point it out, but not if it is your entire counter argument. And I am a (hopefully) recovering grammar Nazi.

You do understand that you negated your own argument, right?

I'd also say that a few corporations are so large that they've outgrown public sector oversight. Conquest Incorporated, for example, absorbed the nation it originally inhabited. As a 'self-governing corporate entity', I don't pay taxes. Hell, I might even have more money available because I don't particularly care to help the poor. Heh. Or really anyone at all that's not already helping themselves.

Want an alliance?

You do understand that you negated your own argument, right?

I'd also say that a few corporations are so large that they've outgrown public sector oversight. Conquest Incorporated, for example, absorbed the nation it originally inhabited. As a 'self-governing corporate entity', I don't pay taxes. Hell, I might even have more money available because I don't particularly care to help the poor. Heh. Or really anyone at all that's not already helping themselves.
I don't see the conflict, as PRA is quite arguably not a corporation in many aspects (for one, instead of paying taxes, it collects them).

As for not helping the poor, then you get into the nation having an overly large percentage of its population living in poverty, and thus unable to buy your products, meaning less profits, especially if you sell items with a long product life (houses, weapons, many luxury items, etc). And the longer you refrain from giving the poor a helping hand, the larger lower class you'll have.

You can have a larger poor population just as easily with helping as with not helping: to pay for these social welfare programs you have to tax people, and more oft than not higher taxes puts more people below the poverty, or limits their financial options to an extent to where they might as well be considered 'poor.' Though in regards to not aiding them with programs: I don't see how this makes a poorer population; everyone else still has a lot of money due to low taxes all across the board. I mean, you can argue that the trends in society to have more kids if you have less money would increase the population of poor people in that society, but even then I'm not sure social welfare programs would help in curbing the growth of the poorer classes.

Well, I both agree and disagree (dammit, I'm conflicting again).

Corporations should definately still be bound by economic realism, but it is much harder to track. They shouldn't be based off of any one nation (as they would not have the entire GDP of their home nation, possibly with few exceptions), and thus getting any idea of how much they make would have to come from them, based off their experiences ie: if they take over a nation and enslave its populance, then they will likely get all of their money, making the number easier to track. But if they run inside another nation elsewhere, as the person whom I believe you are talking about does within my nation, then the cash that they get should be all but pure fabrification.

As for employee stuff, I believe that the mentioned Japanese style loyalty (or, as they call it in my region, Errikan style loyalty (or at least they should :D)), when coupled with a little brainwashing could constitute up to and perhaps more than 70%, but not much more.

Now, what I do not understand (of New Ausha's point) what do social programs have to do with anything? My nation has no social programs, unless you count education, and zelous nationalism is one of our three noble truths (admittedly, the loyalty is to the NATION, which is much more than merely the STATE, which has very little public loyalty). But now I'm off talking about me.

As for all of this crap about grammar, it is okay to point it out, but not if it is your entire counter argument. And I am a (hopefully) recovering grammar Nazi.


I admire and respect you, so I wont flame you.

With all due respect, your saying (with the exemption of education) you have no:

-Social Welfare (what happens too the homless and inable too work...*flashes back too 1940 Germany* YKES!)

-Rehabilitation Programs (for drug addicts, criminals, teenagers, etc)

-Public transportation (college commuters? community busses? nunna that?)

-Museums, Libraries, national archives, are all private?

-No goverment healthcare aid whatsoever? Or social security? (technically social welfare, but meh)

-All roadways are maintained by private industry?

-No student loan, for college kids?

There are alot more, but those are the bigees. ^_^

I admire and respect you, so I wont flame you.

With all due respect, your saying (with the exemption of education) you have no:

-Social Welfare (what happens too the homless and inable too work...*flashes back too 1940 Germany* YKES!)

-Rehabilitation Programs (for drug addicts, criminals, teenagers, etc)

-Public transportation (college commuters? community busses? nunna that?)

-Museums, Libraries, national archives, are all private?

-No goverment healthcare aid whatsoever? Or social security? (technically social welfare, but meh)

-All roadways are maintained by private industry?

-No student loan, for college kids?

There are alot more, but those are the bigees. ^_^

Thank you for not flaming, as that truely limits the depth of the conversation.

The government does build and maintain roadways and canals, though I see that as infastructure.

Other than that, everything else is private. For the government to have any sort of social welfare (including the rehabilitation programs and such) would be, all arguments of effectiveness aside, immoral. To forcibly take money (or equivalent) from one person and to give it to another for no services rendered is theft, even if it is to keep them from starving or help them get off drugs. Such things should be handled by the private sector, where people willingly give their money to good causes or to that which benefits them.
As for the rest (transportation, museums, libraries, loans, etc.) they too are private.

Thank you for not flaming, as that truely limits the depth of the conversation.

The government does build and maintain roadways and canals, though I see that as infastructure.

Other than that, everything else is private. For the government to have any sort of social welfare (including the rehabilitation programs and such) would be, all arguments of effectiveness aside, immoral. To forcibly take money (or equivalent) from one person and to give it to another for no services rendered is theft, even if it is to keep them from starving or help them get off drugs. Such things should be handled by the private sector, where people willingly give their money to good causes or to that which benefits them.
As for the rest (transportation, museums, libraries, loans, etc.) they too are private.


Thank you for clariying. I like dropping useless socila programs too lower taxes as much as any guy.

You can have a larger poor population just as easily with helping as with not helping: to pay for these social welfare programs you have to tax people, and more oft than not higher taxes puts more people below the poverty, or limits their financial options to an extent to where they might as well be considered 'poor.' Though in regards to not aiding them with programs: I don't see how this makes a poorer population; everyone else still has a lot of money due to low taxes all across the board. I mean, you can argue that the trends in society to have more kids if you have less money would increase the population of poor people in that society, but even then I'm not sure social welfare programs would help in curbing the growth of the poorer classes.

You wouldn't neccessarily have to use traditional welfare programs. Other things I'm including here are minimum wages that are slightly above livable, subsidised training for positions needed by your corp, etc. Merely handing out money obviously isn't a solution, but neither is ignoring the problem, which merely makes things worse.

Psh, just give workers food and shelter, the rest can work for you or starve in the street.

I don't see the conflict, as PRA is quite arguably not a corporation in many aspects (for one, instead of paying taxes, it collects them).

Sorry. You said it was a corporation, so I assumed it was.

As for not helping the poor, then you get into the nation having an overly large percentage of its population living in poverty, and thus unable to buy your products....

There is no reason to point out the breathtakingly obvious.

Just because there is no safety net doesn't mean everyone is poor, you understand. There are always winners and losers, and capitalism tends to create a great many winners. Losers exist, and CI doesn't take care of them, but they're hardly the majority. I daresay a successful corporation is unlikely to be entirely composed of the desperate poor.

Anyway.

Errikland: "Zealous nationalism?" Sounds like you could be quite the business partner. Let's exchange a few TGs and see where it goes.

[OOC: Well said Tocrowkia and fellow agreeing parties. After all, most people rarely bother with logistical issues and role-playing logistics in war, never mind politics in war and politics within a nation (good notable exceptions of the latter part would be Hamptonshire, Azazia, Pacitalia and The Macabees).

Hell, many also don't even bother role-playing to a limited degree at least, foreign trade and aspects of their economy, as well as taking into account economics and government forms (i.e. super Orwellian state on crack but frightening economy).

Those things not taken into account, are just as bad in role-playing as role-playing a supposedly invincible mega-corporation that doesn't supposedly need to deal with such issues.]

I agree with the OP. As Saturn Corp, I have vast resources and could certainly conquer nations, but so could any nation of similar size and economic strength. And the Board of Directors wouldn't be happy if the CEO started an unprofitable war. Saturn Corp would much rather be the arms suppiler than the fighter.

The funny thing about corporate states is that all of the 'citizens' are employees. That means that in the event of a war, the entire national population is a completely legitimate target to the point where even the most genocidal commander would be immune to warcrimes charges.

After all, if the Allies could get away with firebombing Dresden and Tokyo under the pretext that the cities housed major factories for the German and Japanese warmachines, then there is nothing to say that one could not get away with annihilating entire populations, seeing as everyone is an employee of what is almost always an arms manufacturer among other things.

Sorry. You said it was a corporation, so I assumed it was.



There is no reason to point out the breathtakingly obvious.

Just because there is no safety net doesn't mean everyone is poor, you understand. There are always winners and losers, and capitalism tends to create a great many winners. Losers exist, and CI doesn't take care of them, but they're hardly the majority. I daresay a successful corporation is unlikely to be entirely composed of the desperate poor.

Anyway.

Errikland: "Zealous nationalism?" Sounds like you could be quite the business partner. Let's exchange a few TGs and see where it goes.

'k

I admire and respect you, so I wont flame you.

With all due respect, your saying (with the exemption of education) you have no:

-Social Welfare (what happens too the homless and inable too work...*flashes back too 1940 Germany* YKES!)

-Rehabilitation Programs (for drug addicts, criminals, teenagers, etc)

-Public transportation (college commuters? community busses? nunna that?)

-Museums, Libraries, national archives, are all private?

-No goverment healthcare aid whatsoever? Or social security? (technically social welfare, but meh)

-All roadways are maintained by private industry?

-No student loan, for college kids?

There are alot more, but those are the bigees. ^_^

Good God, that's exactly how Neo-Erusea is.

Well. Although those people do tend to go a too far with their budget, even I am richer than my government. Most governments are several billion (if not trillion) dollars in debt. Since many international corporations have a net worth of well over a couple billion, it is a likely assumption that one could, at least for some time, spend its money and go into debt to accure an otherwise unimaginable amount of money. Now, I'm not talking so many zeros they have to invent a new word, but it could, theoretically, be a large sum of money. But that's just my two cents.

You know.

I'm about to file a formal grevence here soon. I'm sick of RFF flaming and baiting people in threads...

I think I'm going to start a corporation within Avisron that will attempt to take advantage of the command and control issues that these country-sized corporations would have.

Just found this thread - well, maybe a bit of gravedigging, but better than make a clone thread.

I actually (start to) roleplay for corporations. In my case, I'm not doing it for some cheat wank, but rather for interest. In Vault 10 the government's power is constitutionally restricted to end ground. ecology resources management. However, it's not a corponation: the largest corporation employs 10% of the population, others considerably less.

But, rather than "discounting" some issues, I actually enjoy the complication of dealing with additional issues specific for corporations. This is not just about myself, but an advice for other corporate roleplayers as well. First of all, the corporations certainly do not share a single goal, and can be considered independent entities. Then, corporations are, of course, not charity funds, so I can't do something that is not going to bring profit.

For instance, when a nation in my region had a disaster, I could not just help them as I wanted. However, the corporations developed a humanistic solution of evacuating people in exchange of doing underpaid jobs in night shifts on their factories for the time of disaster.

When our region formed the Joint Space Exploration Project, Vault 10 could not provide funding as others, but Lightning Communications organized massive coverage using their worldwide satellite network (expanded by extra loads on joint rockets), with advertisement revenues dedicated to the project. And now not only astronauts, but any single technician or doctor can't walk in sight of omnipresent cameras without suit covered in logos from all over the world, and giving out interviews is not optional.

And it is not only lack of freedom to spend money. Corporations often lack the absolute power of the government: when Aerospace Logistics developed a promising (or, in common terms, cost-saving) space rocket applying mostly harmless (TM) nuclear power, in any other country it would be built and tested as a black project. But, as the ground is still in government's jurisdiction, due to radiophobic ecological laws ALC is forced to seek another country to test it, and joined the Joint Space Exploration Project for that very purpose.
Well, you can say that I manage to save a lot of money this way - yes, but others usually don't count them at all.



However, I must say that I couldn't do it all this way in the technical part of the game. If I just zeroed spending on everything except commerce, it would be incorrect - no, Vault 10 has education, it just involves a contract; the nation has strict ecology policies; an international corporation is hired for law enforcement. Well, and I somewhat screwed up in creation and early questions. I made another nation to attempt better management, but I really don't want to abandon Vault 10 and, after all, the system anyway can not represent the non-governmental spending.
Would it be appropriate to roleplay without regard to the official stats, but rather following a self-written description in NSWiki article and realistic corporate behavior?

Governments can afford to be insolvent and can always make money through taxes.

Corporations must make money to survive, and they can't take the easy way out and levy taxes. They have to sell something and/or invest.

The problem with corporation nations in NS is that they just assume they make tons and tons of money and can afford wars with everyone on scales of which nations could not dream.