NationStates Jolt Archive

The Global Strategic Missile Defence Project (GSMDP)

The Democratic Republic of Hamilay has been looking at the construction of an orbital missile defence system for some time now. It was decided that, to procure the most effective and cutting-edge system, foreign investments needed to be accepted. However, the project will act in the form of a treaty. All nations committing themselves to this project will fund an equal stake in the construction and maintanence of the project, and they will receive usage of the system when themselves or their allies are under strategic nuclear threat. The Project also aims to provide a means for smaller or more peaceful nations to receive the use of an ABM system, all the more necessary in the growing nuclear environment.

Hamilay's current design for the project is a network of space-based lasers, which includes:
- 2048 nuclear-powered solid state orbital lasers (Neodymium glass), including anti-missile countermeasures.
- 1 minor control centre in each of the signatory countries
- 1 Central Command centre, based in Hamilay
- 1 secondary control centre, based in Barbarosea. This complex is to become the primary control centre if the Hamilay complex is disabled.
- A secondary system of 3200 'Brilliant Pebbles' kinetic warhead satellites
- 5 space stations as permanent orbital control stations for the project (jointly owned and staffed)
- 1 space station for construction of the satellite network. After the project's completion, this will be converted into a peaceful scientific research station, jointly owned by the signatories.

The total cost of this project is estimated to be approximately 11 trillion Universal Standard Dollars (including funding for the enhancement of the Hamilayan space program, and other nations' space programs if they so desire), with a maintanence cost of 200 billion dollars per year not counting replacements for satellites damaged or worn out. The design is of course completely open to enhancement, suggestions and change by the other nations.

Provisions of the Project

The project is closed to governments deemed to be oppressive or dictatorial.
The system will not be used in defence of oppressive and dictatorial governments allied to signatories.
The Dem. Rep. of Hamilay receives overall control of the system. For this privilege we will contribute 150% more funds.
The system will not be used in situations when the nation launching ICBMs is deemed to have sufficient provocation. If the nation launching ICBMs at a project signatory was previously attacked with any form of weapons of mass destruction by the aforementioned signatory, this is deemed to be sufficient provocation. Under no other circumstances is provocation deemed to be sufficient.
All governments contribute equally to the funding and maintenance of the system (with the exception of the above point).
If the system is damaged when attacked by a nation hostile to one of the signatories, the nation(s) at war with the attacker must pay the full costs of repair.
Signatories are permitted and encouraged to send personnel to the Central Command facility to act as their nation's representatives.
In the event of an unprovoked nuclear attack by a signatory on another nation, they will be ejected from participation in the project.
This is not intended to be a defensive pact or alliance. Besides giving them the use of the system, signatories are not obligated to assist other signatories when under threat.
Signatories do agree to refrain from attacking each other with nuclear weapons. All attacks on signatories will be neutralised, regardless of who is attacking. (exception of clause 1)
Signatories agree to maintain peaceful relations with the Democratic Republic. Failure to do so will result in the overriding of their rights to the system.
Signatories are not prohibited from declaring war on one another, with the exception of the above point.
To ensure the responsible use of the powers afforded to the Democratic Republic, the coordination of 50% of the secondary control centre complexes will be able to override the Central Command complex in Hamilay. In terms of the veto of rights to the system, denial of the system to a particular nation will be jointly determined by all signatories.
The Space Program: The project will be constructed by the Hamilayan Department of Aerospace, a subdivision of the Ministry of Defence, and a proportion of funding has been allocated to enhance the HDA's capabilities for this project. However, we will be glad to fund any nations who wish to develop a space program or enhance an existing one (provided it is used for the benefit of the GSMDP)

The Democratic Republic of Hamilay
Ministry of Defence

SIGNATORIES
Blackhelm Confederacy
Gente Del Agua
Maraque
Pheanix
Those weird people
Vault 10
Barbarosea

If nations wish to receive funding for an existing space program or to create a basic new one, by all means mention so in your application.

bump

[OOC: May I perhaps suggest try sorting out a deal with the OMASC/NDI (Omzian Military Aerospace Corporation/National Defense Industries) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=278248)? The player behind the Omzian Democratic Republic knows a lot about all things related to aviation (i.e. missiles, rockets, airplanes, parts, etc), so you may want to ask for assistance. And as for this, I may have some *possible IC interest....tag for now.]

OOC: Okay, thanks for the tip SEA. I don't know if it will tie in with space-based stuff, but it'll help.
And teh bump.

[OOC: Hamilay, well, in case the space-based lasers fail (which I personally feel that the financial and practicality is to be questioned, but meh), you could always get Omz222's knowledge in missiles to help construct a formidable 'second-barrier' and a last-ditch barrier. And of course, you would want to contact him IC because of his aviation company's knowledge and also for other reasons like trade, to name a few. After all, people don't tend to sit down and wait for an oppurtunity to come to their benefit. They usually take action to try and achieve their goals, and gain help from others in the process.]

Teh bump in light of both the gigantic nuclear wars and all the newbies getting nukes for some reason.

bump

[Ooc: I've got a nifty little PDF on DEW's for missile defence hosted on my google webspace. Here. (http://orbital.weapon.system.googlepages.com/CopyofDEW.PDF) Hope it helps. :) ]

The Blackhelm Confederacy is willing to participate in this operation. Seeing all of the nuclear weapons that have been getting lobbed around, particularly in the Ackistan/Blainesville/Clandonia area, it has been decided that a powerful system be put in place, should an attack be made upon our nation. Although we managed to already stop a previous attack, we are unsure of our ability to stop another, and we feel that our scientists would be of good use to this project. If you should choose to accept us onto your project, please get back soon.

Sincerely,
Lucius Blackhelm

OOC: Remember, Griffincrest is not the Blackhelm Confederacy

[Ooc: I've got a nifty little PDF on DEW's for missile defence hosted on my google webspace. Here. (http://orbital.weapon.system.googlepages.com/CopyofDEW.PDF) Hope it helps. :) ]
OOC: No Brilliant Pebbles? :( But thanks, that looks like it's going to be really useful. Interesting read.
IC:
Hamilay views the Blackhelm Confederacy with some apprehension, due to the disagreeable activites of Griffincrest. However, we will accept that the Griffincrest Corporation is a separate entity to the Confederacy government, and Blackhelm will be accepted into the project.

Axis Nova advises you expand your planned system by a factor of at least ten, if funding can be aquired.

The Latican Empire is willing to contribuite to this new programme.

Axis Nova advises you expand your planned system by a factor of at least ten, if funding can be aquired.
OOC: Why? I don't know enough about Pebbles, except that you need a lot of them, so yeah, probably for that. I was under the impression though that about 12 chemical lasers would be a sufficient ABM system for a country like the USA.
IC:
The Latican Empire (?) is accepted to this project. Details of payment will be finalised once construction commences.

OOC: Why? I don't know enough about Pebbles, except that you need a lot of them, so yeah, probably for that. I was under the impression though that about 12 chemical lasers would be a sufficient ABM system for a country like the USA.
IC:
The Latican Empire (?) is accepted to this project. Details of payment will be finalised once construction commences.


OOC: Because NS nations tend to go waaaaay overboard with the nukes and will also do things like take potshots at your satellites. You want waaaay more than you ever expect to actually need.

OOC: Because NS nations tend to go waaaaay overboard with the nukes and will also do things like take potshots at your satellites. You want waaaay more than you ever expect to actually need.
Yeah, I thought of that, but that's why I already had ten times the number of satellites before, lol. I really need that many? Mmmkay. I still need prices for this stuff: how much will a satellite cost?

British Londinium would like to participate in this programme.

OOC: A further note: I would suggest using free-electron or solid-state lasers rather than chemical lasers, as replacing the voatiles used in a chemical laser on a satellite is likely to be a huge pain. This will somewhat increase expense since the sats will need to be nuclear powered, but in return you get more powerful lasers.

OOC: Okay, fair enough. I chose chemical lasers because aren't they the laser type which is mostly being looked into in terms of military applications? I'll probably go for solid-state.

IC:
British Londinium is determined at this point as being a nation on unfriendly terms with the Republic, due to their use of weapons of mass destruction on Demaray. They are denied from participation.

OOC: Hmm, interesting. I would be willing to help fund this program, but it is obvious that the "contract" needs reworking. Considering what I would need to get out of the program in order to make it worth while, I would have to talk to you privatly, Hamilay. Please respond if you believe you would be interested in my aid.

The Democratic Constitutional Monarchy of the Secular Empire of Maraque would like to join this program, after seeing many potential nuclear threats put forth upon us we feel this would be of great benefit.

Maraque is accepted to the project.

Aerospace Logistics, Symmetriad and Vault-Tec companies from Vault 10 have expressed interest in joining the project. I, as the Coordinator of Vault 10, will represent them in this deal.

Aerospace Logistics has an offer to handle a large part of the project. Twenty V-9P space rockets will be transferred as our participation, and 50 full-scale V-9 when they are built. These rockets have payload of 800 tonnes each for V-9P and 1000 tonnes is expected for V-9. Most importantly, they are reusable, supporting up to 50 launches each, all equipment for which will be provided by our company. Totally this will allow launch of over 2,000,000 tonnes to the orbit, which should cover all launch requirements.
Since estimated market price for these rockets plus replacement parts for 50 launches exceeds 50 billions each, this should equate over 3.5 trillions of N$ dollars. Moreover, we can offer a large supply of older rockets to conduct launches, bringing the total value up to 4 trillions. Further help in space launches and space vehicles construction will be provided, as long as Aerospace Logistics and Symmetriad retain priority contractors status. In total, we can provide equipment which will cut up to 50% of the total cost, using market prices, effectively funding most of the project. However, we will provide such assistance if, and only if all of our conditions are met. We will only consider minimum necessary assistance otherwise.

However, our companies have expressed extremely serious dissatisfaction with the following requirements:

1. * The system will not be used in situations when the nation launching ICBMs is deemed to have sufficient provocation.
All of the representatives found this to be extremely subjective and therefore inacceptable. We only agree to join if the system will be used always, regardless of subjective positions, provided that the nation in question has fulfilled their financial obligations.
This is the most important and non-negotiable requirement under which we may consider joining.

The only alternative we suggest is that Vault 10 would have veto right on excluding any nation in question from protection, and default condition will be assumed as veto, unless we explicitly state otherwise. However, we expect other nations to support the first solution, under which no exclusion from protection is possible at all.

2. * The Dem. Rep. of Hamilay receives overall control of the system. For this privilege we will contribute 150% more funds.
Clarification is needed for the term of overall control. If that means that the system can not be used without Hamilay, we find it inacceptable, since nations will effectively rely on your good will for their protection. We only agree to join if either we or all nations receive rights to unilaterally use the system, and complete consensus of each side is necessary for deactivating or dismounting the system.

3. * The Space Program: The project will be constructed by the Hamilayan Department of Aerospace, a subdivision of the Ministry of Defence,
While we do not have anything against this, we must say that our assistance would unfortunately become useless in this case, since what we offer is space launch capabilities. System should be constructed jointly.


I'm expecting for your answer.

We have plans for our own AMB defense program, and will devote the funding to organization of an alternate joint event where funding nations will be given inalienable rights of system use without depending on any other.

With best regards,
C.P.,
The Vault 10 Coordinator.

Vault 10's concerns are valid and understandable. To provide clarification:
1. If the nation launching ICBMs at a project signatory was previously attacked with any form of weapons of mass destruction by the aforementioned signatory, this is deemed to be sufficient provocation. Under no other circumstances is provocation deemed to be sufficient. The Republic, and we suspect the other signatories to the project, have no wish to be the target of international anger due to the defence of an aggressive nuclear power. If a signatory is allowed to launch nuclear weapons without a threat of retaliation due to the missile shield, this is encouraging the aggressive use of weapons of mass destruction, which will not be tolerated. This definition is more objective and we hope it is satisfactory, however on this point we also feel that our stance is non-negotiable.

2. Signatory nations are only entitled to operate the system for self-defence or defence of nations with whom they have signed a binding mutual defence pact, rather than simply friendly relations. However, Hamilay reserves the right to operate the system at any time for any purpose. If the terms of the pact are violated, the system will be denied use, and it was intended Hamilay would carry out this task. However, we agree that this may be unsatisfactory and will allow that it be determined by the signatory group as a whole. This will also apply to the above clause.

3. The Hamilayan Dept. of Aerospace is only to carry out construction of the project if no outside help is offered, rather than seeking a foreign contractor; we will welcome both foreign aid and joint construction efforts from the signatories.

We apologise if Vault 10 finds these factors unacceptable, but we hope your concerns are addressed and await your reply.

Regards
The Democratic Republic of Hamilay
Ministry of Defence

teh bump

[insert bump here]

Vault 10's concerns are valid and understandable. To provide clarification:
1. If the nation launching ICBMs at a project signatory was previously attacked with any form of weapons of mass destruction by the aforementioned signatory, this is deemed to be sufficient provocation.
We still, however, don't find this acceptable. While we agree that a joint project should not be used as a shield for offense, the definition of "any form of weapons of mass destruction" is excessively broad. It includes tactical use, includes accidents, and, most importantly, includes diversions that the opponent may intentionally create to make the nation unshielded to his attack.
For instance, the opponent can launch detonate a nuclear warhead on his own territory, or even launch a missile from his own border, and put the blame on one of the nations in the project. Furthermore, biological and chemical attacks are even cheaper to fabricate.

So we would suggest to make conditions very strict to include only fully confirmed deliberate strategic mass destruction attacks. The necessary criteria should confirm, that Weapons of Mass Destruction have been unfairly used by the signatory, and used in their role of Mass Destruction.
Therefore, the proposed criteria will include the following terms:


Defender is the signatory, which territory or significant assets are a target of attack, preventable by the GSMDP.
Attacker is the entity using said weapons against the Defender.

The Defender is entitled to protection against attacks to the extent provided by GSMDP systems, unless he is deemed to deliberately provoke the attack.
Complete or partial denial of protection to the Defender is possible is all of the below criteria are met:

1. Confirmed use of Weapons of Mass Destruction, further WMD, which are:
1.1. Nuclear,
1.2. Radiological,
1.3. Counter-Human Chemical, being Highly Poisonous and permanently causing high or deadly damage.
1.4. Counter-Human Biological.
- 1.3 and 1.4 limitations preventing classing of temporarily incapacitating gases, agricultural or medical chemicals and agents, and similar substances as WMD.

2. Considerable scale of attack, which would be beyond practical for fabrication by the Attacker, but not worth risking the retaliation for the Defender. The threshold is 10% economic and 1% population loss, excluding military assets and personnel, but cumulative in case of successive action.

3. Attack being carried against significant civilian targets, which are defined as all targets with population over ten thousands, except ones belonging to the military or having percentage of military personnel above either 5 times average for given country or 40%, whichever is lower.

4. Confirmation that weapons of mass destruction were used by the Defender, with deliberate intent by the Legal Government, which is the signatory of the document. This addresses the possibilities of:
4.1. The Attacker adding own NBC arsenals to portray conventional attack as nuclear;
4.2. Some of the Defender's WMD assets being captured by the Attacker;
- In which cases the Attacker is not entitled to right of uncountered attack, and remains a legal target for retaliation;
4.3. Control over the Defender's WMD assets fallen in hands of any other group not in control of the Legal Government;
- In which cases the Attacker is entitled to the right of preemptive counter-WMD strike, per exception A, but not to strike against any non-WMD assets or civilian targets of the Defender. Accident Prevention option will be enforced.
4.4. Accidental launches, due to machine or human error
- In which case no other exceptions apply, and the Defender has choice to either immediately agree to Accident Prevention option, or have all his WMD assets a legal target.

5. Attack by the Defender being carried against the Attacker's people and property, located in the Attacker's homeland.

6. Use of the WMD by the Defender being offensive, and not in response to previous actions by the Attacker against the Defender or his ally eligible for protection, involving use of WMD, other large-scale attacks agaist civilian targets, or other large-scale war crimes.

The Defender has presumption of innocence in all cases, and burden of proof lies on the Attacker. In case there is proof or strong suspicion that the Attacker has fabricated any attacks against himself in the past or in the current event, these criteria do not apply, and all his weapons are to be intercepted.

Since the price of mistake, destruction of an entire country, is extreme, no chances for a mistake should be tolerated. However, recognizing the possible necessity of preemptive strikes before these conditions are met, there are exceptions:

Exception A. If the target of ICBM can be determined, and it is a WMD-equipped missile launch site of the Defender, one of the criteria 2, 3 or 4 may be omitted.
Exception B. By consent of 75% of the Signatories, one of the criteria 2,3 or 4 may be omitted for all military targets.

Recognizing that attacks against civilians require extreme justification, that even deliberate actions of the government may not be a basis for mass killing, and that not using the power to stop this would be indirect killing, a counter-balancing exception is applied:
Exception C. All missiles launched against significant civilian targets of any Signatory will be intercepted, unless both all criteria are met and all signatories form full consensus. However, if all criteria are met, all military targets and the government of the signatory are legal targets.


The Signatory might also agree to the Accident Prevention option, under which he will be exempt from any charges of violating the Terms, if they are not proven by his orders. The option may be:
Accident Prevention option: All missiles launched by the Signatory without his prior confirmation will be intercepted.
Limited Accident Prevention option: All missiles launched by the Signatory against civilian targets without his prior confirmation will be intercepted.



2. Signatory nations are only entitled to operate the system for self-defence or defence of nations with whom they have signed a binding mutual defence pact, rather than simply friendly relations. However, Hamilay reserves the right to operate the system at any time for any purpose.
We find that this may include unfair use of the joint system, such as attacks against signatories or destruction of the system. However, if it is restricted to any defensive purposes which do not compromise the integrity of the system, this would not restrict the intended operation, and give you benefit of using it for defense of any nations and extended conditions for own defense, but prevent unfair use.

To further recognize higher investments, we offer the priority system, under which, in case of simultaneous attack against signatories, the priority protection is separated in accordance to their investments ratio, which means that a nation with 50% higher investment will be set as priority for 50% more charges.


3. The Hamilayan Dept. of Aerospace is only to carry out construction of the project if no outside help is offered, rather than seeking a foreign contractor; we will welcome both foreign aid and joint construction efforts from the signatories.
We apologise if Vault 10 finds these factors unacceptable, but we hope your concerns are addressed and await your reply.
Thanks. The concerns have actually been approached. We just find that this pact needs more precise clarification and conditions, which we propose above.

We hope to form a fully valid document providing coverage of all key factors and providing the optimum protection, by joint effort of the parties to the treaty.

OOC: Such complex requirements and laws are excessively restrictive and will only slow things down in an emergency. The time to use such a system is as soon as ICBMs are launched at you-- not after a big conference call to decide whether you need to.

IC: Axis Nova strongly recommends the rejection of Vault 10 from inclusion in the project due to their unrealistic demands and constraints on the use of the system that will render it useless. We will make up all the space launch capabilities they wish to supply for 80% of the cost.

OOC: Real-life treaties tend to be way longer; such a complex treaty would be not good if made with just a few words. Is there anything wrong in having the document written just a bit like a real treaty?

BTW, the constraints are not on use, but on deactivation.
I'm actually not extremely concerned about that, but want to give a better look to the document.


IC: The decision in question is about whether to void a signatory's right to use this system. This is a serious decision and requires compelling reasons. Unless it is done, signatories are protected by the system.

The actual use of the system requires no confirmation at all. Unless the country's right has been voided beforehand, the system is to be used automatically and instantly. The proposal only restricts condition under which signatory may be ejected.

Furthermore, it is only a proposal. All parties are welcome to suggest changes. We do not propose these changes just for ourselves, but rather to ensure that all countries retain their right of protection unless their guilt in deliberately causing the nuclear exchange with intent to cover with the shield is proven.

About the cost, we are offering to provide the launches as an extended participation payment, so most will not cost at all; the market prices are only for evaluation.


[OOC: While IC it would mean a lot, OOC it just means one of the parties writes "I launch nukes at you", we have the confirmation and won't protect them, but at the same time it would be hard for the enemy to make up something to void a party's protection.
I've suggested this because, if I would have to attack a signatory of such treaty, I would make a covert op to launch a nuke from his territory at me (my landfill), to portray him as an aggressor and so void his right for defense.
As I'm going to be on the defending side, I don't want someone else to do this to me. And I guess other people too.
Well, besides just adding more legal look.]

Base Undercrewed - More Parties!

The proposal is open for discussion, and would only serve to ensure the rights to protection.

Our military officials have revised your plans thoroughly and suggested that we partake in this venture as it helps ensure our security, adding another layer of protection to our country. Although not experienced with spaced based projects as large as this we are willing to provide personnel and large amounts of cash to finance this undertaking. The Commonwealth of Pheanix will provide 1.5 Trillion USD upfront to jump start the program, and our two launch pads free of charge to help transport the materials to space.

Pheanix is accepted, and we thank them for their generous contribution. The proposed text of the agreement we find acceptable, and shall include it shortly.

OOC: What you wrote looks great, thanks for that. I'm around this morning a bit more, but I won't be back for a few days. Just in case anyone cared. :)

OOC: Check your TG's ;)

Those weird people are interested in joining your nation in its venture to create this Orbital ABM System. Our orbital construction facilities have been rather unused as of late, and have far more construction capability than is currently being used. Therefore, we would like to offer our extensive facilities in construction of the system. We also would like to offer our expertise in the construction of the cold fusion reactor system to power your satellites, since it's much smaller and more efficient than the fission system. If you would like an inventory for assessment purposes, we'd be more than happy to provide.

OOC: Back. Sorry, exams and then sweet, sweet Medieval TW 2. :p Oh, Vault 10, do you mind if I put your text into the treaty?

IC: Those wierd people are accepted to the project. After greater foreign consultation, we have made some amendments to the project. Anti-missile point defences and countermeasures are now planned to be installed on each satellite.

Excellent. What is it that you'd like us to work on? Or is it still in the general planning stages? Also, we too have signed the treaty.

OOC: Oh, Vault 10, do you mind if I put your text into the treaty?
No problems, it was written exactly for that. Just needs a bit of intro added.

Modify if needed; I've also made a couple minor fixes now.


IC: Vault 10 has officially signed the treaty.

OOC: Waiting a bit for Barbarosea to put an IC post: he offered to fund quite a great deal of money. :p If no one has any objections, I may start another thread for the beginning of construction soon: requesting all nations to send personnel, equipment etc to Hamilay and have representatives overseeing the launch of the first few rockets etc? Is that okay?

First Strike Nuclear Assault of Hamilay

1 minute ago 5 Long range sea-launched ballistic missiles , each with a single 20 megaton warhead were launched along with 15 drone missiles.

21 seconds ago, 120 SLBMs, each tipped with (8) eight 500 kiloton warheads nuclear missiles were launched from somewhere in the middle of the ocean. In addition to the ballistic missiles, 300 supersonic cruise missiles each tipped with a 200 kiloton warhead were launched from somewhere in the ocean from either aircraft, submarines, surface ships or all three.



It is unknown at this time who has launched this attack, one thing is clear, they are ALL heading for The Ministry of Defence within The Democratic Republic of Hamilay...


OOC: obviously Strategic Grace has launched the attack... but can you prove it...

Matthew Kane, strategic defense operator in Vault-Tec, was chatting on a phone, as the bright white lights flashed, siren screamed for a few seconds, and the screens showed realtime satellite video provided by Lightning Communications. Intercontinental missiles were being launched somewhere in the ocean.

He was almost lost for a couple seconds, but immediately switched the line with Kirill Leonov, the Nonconsensual Delivery Coordinator from ALC.

"Orange alert!" - screamed Kane.

The screens in the Coordination Center flashed.
- "On line. Who's attacked?" - Kirill asked quickly, as the screens showed nothing but a photo of the launch and a map of the ocean.
Kane was lost for a second. The alert was supposed to be gray, as the missiles hadn't yet exited atmosphere, and direction couldn't be determined. But it was his first time to spot a real attack, and he was too worried, barely holding himself from screaming "red".
- "Unknown, but...!" - Matthew almost screamed, but seen new data - that was not their land. "Hamilay!"

Hamilay wasn't an official ally, but a treaty partner, with which Vault 10 only yet looked forward to establish closer relations, and the alert was supposed to be yellow.

- "Got it." - Kirill replied quickly and raised his voice - "All units in radius, scramble! Abandon missions, intercept the missiles, point KYN-2895 to Hamilay! Orbital defense on full alert!"
People in the Coordination Center, standing by large displays, covering all the walls, were already calling the units, pointing areas right on the screens.
Kirill switched the phone line.
"Transport Department, recall all flights to Hamilay. Pass the escorts command to us."
He turned to the screen to manage the operation.

Already when screaming "Hamilay", Matthew was searching for their connection key, and a couple seconds later hit it.
- "You're under attack! 120 ballistic, 300 cruise missiles! Scramble all posts, activate the defenses!"
Matthew sighed. He did what he had to, and stayed on line with Hamilay.


A fleet of Aerospace Logistics airlifters was carrying V-9P rockets components to Hamilay for assembly and launch, escorted by a mix of well-proven F-22 and the newest, just finishing the experimental phase Su-47 fighters. As the signal was received, the airlifters were already, to the pilots' surprise, being informed by Esperantania's airbase that they have the permission to land. The fighters turned left, accelerated and followed to the designated points near the cruise missiles trajectories.

Far above, hundreds of satellites in the orbit turned towards the new identified objects entering higher layers of the atmosphere, and the lasers were taking aim.

A nearby carrier received the scramble command. Their planes and helicopters would be too late, but they were taking off to search the launch area.

OOC: Eh... whaaaa?

IC:

Missile Command, 0728 Hrs
Brigadier General Avens was doing his morning rounds through the main control room of Hamilayan Missile Command, coffee cup in hand.
"Morning, John. Any-"
He was interrupted by the sudden blaring of almost every siren in the complex, and the squawking of a communications console.
"You're under attack! 120 ballistic, 300 cruise missiles! Scramble all posts, activate the defenses!" In the confusion, Avens had time to note the transmission was from Vault 10.
"Sir! We have Red Alert, First Class! Enemy missile launch detected, hostiles unknown!"
"WHAT? All right, men, you know the drill! Get those Firestorm batteries online. I want as many planes as possible in the air ASAP. Start the nuclear attack evacuation procedures in all major cities. I want the Presidential Palace and MoD on the horn now. Prep all nuclear silos for a retaliatory strike."

Presidential Palace, Sayenna, 0733 Hrs
"General, what the hell is going on?"
"Mr President, we've detected and been warned of hostile missiles heading towards us. 120 ballistic and around twice that many cruise missiles."
"Christ. All proper procedures have been activated, I presume?"
"Affirmative, fighters are scrambled and our own nukes are ready to launch. Our Firestorms should be able to get most of them, but these things are never guaranteed. Evacuation procedures are commencing, and I'd advise you to follow suit, sir."
"Way ahead of you," remarked the President dryly as a pair of guards ran with him to the bunker in the Palace gardens.

All over the country, Firestorm missile launchers loaded with anti-ballistic missile ordnance powered up to track the offending warheads, nuclear silo doors opened, fighters were launched and speaker towers, televisions and radio stations abruptly blared out warnings.
"Attention citizens of the Democratic Republic! A hostile ballistic missile attack has been detected upon Hamilay. All civilians are ordered to follow standard evacuation procedures to your nearest designated bomb shelter. Remain calm and listen to the directions of law enforcement personnel."
Statement of the Democratic Republic of Hamilay

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e267/Flaw3dLegacy/hamilay2mottogo7_small.jpg

It has come to the attention of the Republic that a nuclear attack is being carried out against us. We advise the aggressor in question to call off their attack immediately. You will be unable to get away with this brazen crime undiscovered, and due to the relatively low number of weapons launched we estimate your nuclear arsenal is woefully inferior to our own. We repeat, call off this attack or we will have no choice but to retaliate in full.

Two squadrons of fighters, ADF-1840 and X-16, dispersed a few miles from each other, were flying on supercruise high in the sky, approaching trajectories of the missiles.

- "Targets in range, all missiles locked. Sixty miles to formation. Should we engage, sir?" - asked Andrew, F-22 pilot on the ADF-1840 closed broadcast channel.
- "All fighters, prepare to engage!" - commanded Richard - "Activate am-ram! Commencing target assignment..."
He was suddenly interrupted by a high-pitched voice.
- "Hold fire. There are three hundreds of them. Leave the missiles for ones escaping and close to cannon range."

- "You are here?..." - Richard was surprised, if not to say shocked. He wasn't supposed to be informed about other squads, of course, not excluding X-6, but this was a routine escort mission - he always felt pilots like that were somewhere... well, there was no war now, but anyway not here.

- "Turn right, follow the targets from behind at 28 meters above, four kilometers back. Then switch the autopilots to target follow mode, closing at 80 mps. Place a single shot at 1700 meters and proceed to the next line in two seconds. "

Formally, no one from X-16 could tell them what to do. Richard had all the responsibility for his squad. He was required to repeat the order himself, and at least converting all that to feet and knots, as their planes had standart Lockheed Martin avionics. But everybody heard that voice on a few tapes in the Academy, and Richard felt it would be rude to intervene.

The Raptors took their places behind the cruise missiles, slowly closing, and, followind irregular shots or bursts, the missiles fell down into the ocean one by one. X-16 squad continued to cross towards the next missile group, shooting them right on the way, as if they weren't aiming at all.
ADF-1840 was moving to the next group of targets, and Andrew pushed the afterburner for half a minute - he wanted to be ahead. He felt like he got it, and fired a short burst from two miles.



The missile was falling, but, all of sudden, a bright flash blinded him, and a powerful blast threw his plane upwards. The chameleon glass on the helmet saved his eyes, and he tried to righten the plane up. Useless. Andrew pulled the controls one by one. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing!!
The engines were still workingburning, but the fighter was all shaking and turning downwards; it was not long before it would fall into the sea. Eject. Now eject. It was the time.


He pulled the handle. Nothing happened. There was nothing to do. He had two minutes, maybe three. He had no right to waste the seconds.
His parents... Andrew didn't remember his parents. He was born inside the Vault, just eight years before The Signal. His parents left the Vault, one of the first explorers of the new world above, and Paul was left below, to grow up in the comfortable oversized coffin which saved his parents when the nuclear fires rained upon his country.

The gray walls of the underground city, the white medical center, the virtual reality room which educated them. His, no, their common dream, the beautiful, peaceful world for which he loved the VR room, despite the weird delays at times, despite tears flowing from the eyes from the contrast other boys liked to turn up. He spend more time there than anyone else. One time, he was so immersed in the beautiful cottage village with the green, bright green trees and grass around, that he forgot about the controls in his hands and just ran, ran towards a tree to climb it - and only hit the softened wall of the VR room.
He liked to talk to the people shown by the machine - their answers were at times repetitive, but the things they told him captivated him. He didn't know what to believe - the people born outside, the books from the library, the video tapes at the Vault's computer center, or tales from the VR room.

For one month, after The Signal, when they were using the room for training for the First Expedition, the supercomputer of the Vault was working for the VR, to simulate the possible dangers above. Every night, Andrew sneaked into the VR room, and played with the computer. It was very different. That month, it seemed sentient. Every time, he faced a different world, a world full of dangers, which he learned to avoid, only to face new ones, always different. The supercomputer remembered Andrew and always greeted him.
Some times, they just talked - about the Vault, about the life, about anything, usually after Andrew's character died, each time in a different way. The AI knew nothing about the surface, but they discussed the questions that seemed the most important to Andrew that days - the philosophical questions they never faced at their dull lessons, where even the teachers felt like all they taught would be useless forever, buried under half a mile of rock.

When his parents left, Andrew didn't pay any attention. He knew they were leaving, but all he knew about the world above was the cottage village on a river from the VR room, the beautiful photo albums from the library, the movies from the computer center, the songs he took there. The First Expedition was all shining, both with their happy faces and their silvered suits, they were armed to the teeth. Of course, they promised to take everyone with them as soon as the city would be founded.
The First Expedition never returned. The remains of their suits were found many years later, all torn apart by explosions, remains of an unknown helicopter scattered around them.


But Andrew had never really missed his parents. Somehow, already in the Vault, he felt like they were entirely different beings, and neither their leave nor failure to return touched him. Whom did he have to remember in his last moments? The computer and the virtual village, nothing like the town of low concrete bunkers where he actually moved after leaving the Vault, were everything he remembered from his childhood. He even returned to the Vault afterwards, to visit his old room, to copy the records from the computer center. The pre-war world was what his parents never told him about. Neither did the computer, and even their movie collection was filtered, only books and music left in their shadow of life to remind of what once cast it.


After the surface was retaken by the Vaults, and Andrew moved outside, he spend a lot of time, exploring the records he obtained from the Vault. He tried to restore the vision of the past, the pre-war world. Andrew even obtained a set of Barco CRT projectors and a real Monitor Audio system, for a stunning cost, just like the one they had in the VR room. He viewed the few retained movies and listened to hundreds of discs from long ago, feeling like he could returned to the pre-war golden age for a while. He tried to remember his friends. A portrait. Another one. He felt nothing about them. Besides the past he has never seen, he left nothing behind.

Andrew took a deep breath. He had already said farewell to the past long ago. He just stopped thinking and let the emptiness consume him.
Something softly hit his fighter from below. Well, so this was how the end looked like...

[OOC: Don't worry, we'll shoot all of the cruise missiles, just in the following post. In the meantime, feel free to deal with other issues.


P.S. 5% discount for Su-47 and derived fighters will be offered to the first one to mention the X-16 commander's name, and 10% if that's both the first and the last name (if the last is not true, 5% remain, but it's too rare to just guess without clues).
IC it is possible because you would be supposed to know enough something about them to get rid of tech transfer fee, and in the second case to influence the deal through persons].

OOC: to: Vault 10
When did you position your F-22's, and how do you expect them to "close to cannon range" with missiles that are traveling faster than the maximum speed of the F-22, unless your F-22's have engines rated over mach 5+ I don't see how that's possible or why you have all these random forces in the area all of the sudden :gundge:

OOC: I feel so late... I hate my school schedule.

A monitoring station near the center of country's giant desert picked up the television and radio broadcasts along with the rest of Hamilay when the signal went out. Immediately, the Corporal at the station had a message sent out to Space Command on Unity-1. From there, monitoring satellites over the launch paths were immediately tapped for the generals at Unity-1 watch and see if there was anything that could be done to halt them. They noticed that a number of the missiles would pass underneath the station in its orbit, and they checked with the commander of the experimental strike craft squadron (The Flaming Angels) to see if they would be able to intercept any of the ballistic missiles before they come down from orbit onto their targets. They were informed that none of the fighters were equipped with ABM missiles or tracking systems, and that it would take hours to reconfigure for that purpose. But just for the sake of trying, the squadron was ordered to launch. Their plasma torch engines lighting, the 18 X-1 Fighters lifted out of their bays in Unity-1 on an intercept course with the ballistic missiles. The craft would be limited solely to their rotary cannons, since the only missiles available were made to track slow moving and very repetitive orbiting satellites, not high speed ballistic missiles that only make a single go before impacting. As the squadron split into 4 flights and a cover pair, 3 of the X-1's had a malfunction and had to return to base to prevent a catastrophic explosion. They squadron reorganized, and within minutes hundreds of contacts were found on the sensors. As the fighters closed to maximum gun range, they began to squirt bursts of cannon fire into the mass. The majority of the slugs missed by quite a distance, but a few managed to hit their targets, destroying 4 of the smaller warheads. As they closed, they continued firing into the mass. However, the warheads were beginning their final descents, and the X-1's had no atmospheric capability to speak of, other than being a suicidal hulk of metal. Over 150 warheads were confirmed destroyed, although over 800 warheads remained and began their path into Hamilay. One of the flights disregarded the RTB order and followed the warheads into the atmosphere, managing to destroy another dozen before burning up in the atmosphere, with the golf ball sized remains scattering across the ocean and creating an interesting meteor shower to those on the ground.

OOC: I know the warheads are traveling at insane speeds, but I would think that a space strike craft would be able to close range with a ballistic warhead in space and be able to shoot out a number of them. And I did that math on the warheads... there were 965 of them total. A pretty large number, especially since each is half a megaton a piece...

[OOC:
OOC: to: Vault 10
When did you position your F-22's, and how do you expect them to "close to cannon range" with missiles that are traveling faster than the maximum speed of the F-22, unless your F-22's have engines rated over mach 5+ I don't see how that's possible or why you have all these random forces in the area all of the sudden
A few things, Strategic Grace:
Zeroth, it is a good tone to judge others by standarts you apply to yourself. Complaints about insufficient verbosity look simply funny from someone launching an unprovoked nuclear attack with one post and a couple phrases. If it was not the GSMDP thread, I think most players would ignore it. But leaving that alone - well, we're playing.

First, I was intercepting your cruise missiles, not ballistic ones.
There are no cruise land attack missiles traveling at Mach 5. All are subsonic. And will not reach Mach 5 as long as 1 bar equals 14.5 psi. There are a few AShM - I can name them - which reach Mach 2 to Mach 2.8, but only at the final stage, and their cruise speed is subsonic.
Second, again about RP - even if such missile existed, since you didn't specify which you used, I can assume the standart one - BGM-109 Tomahawk. Well, it doesn't matter, the missiles you want don't exist, but just for the future. Also, I even played for you - normally missiles just fall and sink after being shot, and not detonate the warhead; I added that for extra challenge and interest.
Third, we were transferring parts of V-9P rockets for the GSMDP, as was mentioned in some of the first posts. A daily routine, regular, as they are heavy. What would you expect a company named Aerospace Logistics to transport them by - guar carts? ]

[OOC:

A few things, Strategic Grace:
Zeroth, it is a good tone to judge others by standarts you apply to yourself. Complaints about insufficient verbosity look simply funny from someone launching an unprovoked nuclear attack with one post and a couple phrases. If it was not the GSMDP thread, I think most players would ignore it. But leaving that alone - well, we're playing.

First, I was intercepting your cruise missiles, not ballistic ones.
There are no cruise land attack missiles traveling at Mach 5. All are subsonic. And will not reach Mach 5 as long as 1 bar equals 14.5 psi. There are a few AShM - I can name them - which reach Mach 2 to Mach 2.8, but only at the final stage, and their cruise speed is subsonic.
Second, again about RP - even if such missile existed, since you didn't specify which you used, I can assume the standart one - BGM-109 Tomahawk. Well, it doesn't matter, the missiles you want don't exist, but just for the future.


This is NS there are dozens that are capable of mach 5+ flight, I specified supersonic, obviously not Tomahawk.

This is NS there are dozens that are capable of mach 5+ flight, I specified supersonic, obviously not Tomahawk.

OOC: Just to his credit, Phoenix Dynamix sells 2 cruise missile models that each fly well over mach 5... link here (http://phoenixdynamix.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&thread=1099927691) I don't know how real or possible they are, but there they are.

[OOC:
This is NS there are dozens that are capable of mach 5+ flight, I specified supersonic, obviously not Tomahawk.
SG, I'm not sure if you are new to roleplaying, in which case I ask you to please heed to few basic advices, or a "puppet nation" of someone else, in which case you know what you are doing is not allowed at all. In spirit of assuming good faith, I'll presume the former and address the issues this way. Do you realize you've just almost doomed your nation, and it would take a great diplomatic effort to avoid the response?
Sorry for not noticing "supersonic" - but "supersonic" doesn't equal "Mach 5".

First of all, I've studied fluid dynamics for a few years, supersonic included, so I would very much like to hear an explanation of how a cruise missile with considerable range (otherwise you would be detected) goes Mach 5 all the way, and the one I could retell at my workplace without hearing a laughter. There are missiles which go over Mach 5, but for a short range and with small payload. Until I have such an explanation, and don't hear laughter or disproval after showing it, I assume all such missiles to be FT - Fantasy Tech or Future Tech, which are two styles of the same.
This thread is MT+1 tech (sometimes called just MT) with PMT nations possible. This means FT weapons don't work here. All we use has been studied and confirmed to be feasible in the reality; well, not all were tested, but we're fixing that just now.

Second, even if such missiles were possible, you couldn't just say - "Oh, they were this missiles". To have a non-RL weapon, you need: 1) Either design or buy it; 2) Preferably get it to the theater (if it's secret, in OOC); 3) Specify which exact weapon you use. I can't tell for sure if you did (1), but you surely skipped (2), and, most importantly, ignored (3). If (3) is ignored, the responding player may choose any he wants which fits the description. So even existence of such missiles wouldn't give you them automatically. Especially backwards.

Third, thanks for testing our system. Believe me, with a complex intercepting even ICBMs we could deal with all this, even hypersonic missiles, way faster; I'm roleplaying close range interception just because it gives a better story. We're already playing along, just for interest. ]

Well, OK, let's proceed to the real part.

[ P.S. The discount offer is still active. Even if you don't need it - mention, I just want to know how many people read that thread (respecting animal rights), and how much inter-referencing is appropriate. BTW, there are two correct answers for the last name, one character was real, another fictional; little in common besides profession and name, though, so I don't think the latter is based on the former; but there are only so many notable pilots with that name. ]

[ P.P.S. Sorry if this post turns out crappy, which is likely. I really ought finish it that day, without the detraction of OOC tech and RP discussions.
BTW, there recently was an actual case with F-22 canopy stuck, just if you're interested. ]





...The Sun was bright this morning, its reflections on the water almost blinding, but it disappeared beyond the flash. A F-22 too close to the explosion was seemingly thrown back, losing control.

One of the Su-47 rushed right into the steam mushroom, made a barrel turn and approached the falling fighter. Making a barrel turnover, it released the landing gear and went below the Raptor, in half a minute equalizing the speed, and hit it with the gear, leaving dents in the skin.

Andrew was waiting, but nothing happened. Didn't the plane crash upon hitting the water? He opened his eyes and was sitting shocked as his fighter was, with less shaking, climbing again, at the same time turning around. Andrew reached to the controls, but they were still useless. The turning stopped, and the plane was flying more or less straight course, as he could see his own group flying by in the opposite direction. Quietly, a shadow covered the cockpit.
He looked up. Right above him, inside the fighter, the commander of X-16 was showing him to open the panel left of his seat. Andrew tried to do it, but it didn't budge. He gave it a kick, and thin aluminium cover flew aside. Behind it, there were tens of electric cables, carefully laid out.
Following the instructions, the pilot cleared some of the cables of isolation with his parachute knife. Now what... She was showing him to cut two thicker cables... five, apostrophe - five minutes? Connect there and there - canopy... he nodded, all was clear to him.

Heck, they ought teach all that in school. At least in the academy. OK, cutting this - he was high and far enough from the missiles. Doesn't work. Andrew kicked a panel on his right and cut all thick cables there. The vibration ceased as the engines stopped. "Fly by wire", his arse!! Double, triple, quadruple redundancy - all that crap was worth nothing. If not for their best ace, he would be dead already.



After the blast, Richard's radar went blind for a while. "Andrew!" - he screamed. "ADF-1840-3, can you hear me?!"... It was bad, and even worse because they had about 250 targets left, even without these caught in the detonation, and only 48... no, now only 40 missiles in his unit. But people first. "Mayday!! Mayday!! Mayday!" - he shouted into the microphone - "Pilot rescue operation needed, KXP-27-11".
- "CVN-426, Captain Dietermann here. Redirecting two helicopters to KXP-2711. We are searching for the enemy boats now. How bad is the situation?"
- "One pilot" - Richard was calming down. - "Just pick him up, that's all. One pilot for now. If I don't respond, probably sixteen, if we manage to eject. These missiles detonate, and we..."
A cold, high voice interrupted him. "Eight." That was all.
- "Copy that. Preparing to pick eight pilots."

Richard felt a bit enraged, not used to be ignored like that. Looked like the captain also knew that voice.... His plane was nearing the ground, and the siren screamed. Richard hit his head over the canopy, and put the plane back upwards. What was he thinking of himself? The "X-16" designation meant nothing to him, but there hardly was anyone not to know the legendary ace who had never lost, at least after becoming known as such. She certainly knew what to do. And, despite having eight years more, all he had was the experience of one fight where he wasn't even detected. The newbie squad he led got F-22 just because the production was outsourced to Arroyo-Klamath conglomerate.
The underestimated former tribals riveted together thousands monthly, instead of expected hundreds. Why did they think so low of them? The neonazism had probably gone too far. They thought they would get rid of all the nazi forever, when the tapes with genealogic records were pompously demagnetized, broken apart and driven upon by citizens (cars weren't yet banned these days), and sent in thrash trucks for recycling. It helped for a while, but the people started to divide other by their birthplace. Pre-war Vault Dwellers, Vault-born, their descendants, tribals, immigrants, foreigners. New Californian Republic managed to keep that aside, but not others. They were different countries, an entire continent, and the nuclear war united them - only to have them split over total nonsense. They were the same, ones lucky enough to reach the underground Vaults, the people who found shelter on the surface, the people outside the lands claimed by corporations... It was just luck, and mostly luck of their parents, all citizens of the same countries, but they split over such a petty matter. The less sense it makes, the more the people are eager to fight over it. It was even more pointless since the genetic modification became popular, and the tribals with their supposed genetic anomalities probably were way cleaner than many of the Vault-born.
Still, as everyone realized that, the disrespect was growing, mostly among the youngsters. He probably subconsciously accepted the beliefs of the twenties around him, despite being nearly ten years older...


- "Twenty-two, get to the flanks and attack on my order. Keep five to six kilometers to the targets. We are short of time. Engage all targets that get twenty kilos to the shore."
Richard followed the orders like an ordinary pilot, taking Andrew's place in the formation. The Su-47 rushed ahead. Actually, there was barely anything from the Sukhoi design there, but some people in the ALC high command believed they had to first acknowledge everyone who had contributed to aviation before naming anything after their own engineers.

They split to the flanks, as the X-16, except for their leader, was shooting down the missiles, flying almost through the explosions, their fiber optics and fully shield-enclosed avionics as vulnerable to EMP as bricks.


...Now the canopy - Andrew connected the cables. In the silence of the almost stopped fighter, he heard the motor, but the canopy didn't open. He tried to hit it - the glass was strong. Not far behind him, Su-47 was already slowly turning away. Andrew tried to stand up and hit the canopy with his fists as hard as he could. X-16 commander turned back, and Andrew bent to the floor right in time, when an anti-missile round broke his canopy into shards, thrown backwards by the wind. Strong force hit him, the cockpit not saving from the 200-knot wind.
Andrew finally found the catapult wire. If the Vaults were built like his fighter, they all would be long, long dead. Get out of this crap if he survives...
His catapult stopped the train of thought. Descending on the parachute, Andrew watched as his fighter hit the waves, breaking into small pieces which quickly disappeared in the ocean.

[OOC:

Third, thanks for testing our system. Believe me, with a complex intercepting even ICBMs we could deal with all this, even hypersonic missiles, way faster; I'm roleplaying close range interception just because it gives a better story. We're already playing along, just for interest.
OOC:
Intercepting a low flying cruise missile with an orbital laser system is "FT" by your defininton as are those space fighters your ally used, and the project is not even complete anyway.

Been RPing here longer than your join date on many nations including this particular nation which lost a few posts, join date and population to the forum move and death/resurrections.

It could have been a Fikish SS-N-33 Sunburn, Yakhont-3, 4 or 5, a Vengeance HyStrike Missile, a BGM-5 Hatchet or BGM-6 Battle Axe missile, a GWS.58 Hurricane or GWS.57 Erne. (some of which have been in wide use since mid 2003 on NS in MT+1 situations) The point is you don't know, you are just observing missiles coming out of nowhere, travelling faster than the speed of sound and heading to the ministry of defense...
better start sub hunting before you get anything outta me
And Hamilay is due for the next post.

OOC:
Intercepting a low flying cruise missile with an orbital laser system is "FT" by your defininton as are those space fighters your ally used, and the project is not even complete anyway.

Been RPing here longer than your join date on many nations including this particular nation which lost a few posts, join date and population to the forum move and death/resurrections.

It could have been a Fikish SS-N-33 Sunburn, Yakhont-3, 4 or 5, a Vengeance HyStrike Missile, a BGM-5 Hatchet or BGM-6 Battle Axe missile, a GWS.58 Hurricane or GWS.57 Erne. (some of which have been in wide use since mid 2003 on NS in MT+1 situations) The point is you don't know, you are just observing missiles coming out of nowhere, travelling faster than the speed of sound and heading to the ministry of defense...
better start sub hunting before you get anything outta me
And Hamilay is due for the next post.

Erm... Not trying to start a major argument here, but this is MT+1. And they were experimental fighters. That's why there was only a single squadron in which 3 had difficulties and they didn't do too well in attacking the warheads. And for a nation like mine which put funding specifically into orbital stations and space tech, I find it perfectly reasonable that there would be experimental fighters. That, and the lasers aren't too FT... the USA currently has some very much basic lasers that actually work. They're just too big and expensive to be practical, so I could imagine that MT+1 would be able to get away with space based lasers. Although I don't think that they are for low flying cruise missiles, so much as ballistic missile warheads.

OOC: Sorry, been away for the weekend. Post later tonight, probably.

[OOC:
It could have been a Fikish SS-N-33 Sunburn, Yakhont-3, 4 or 5, a Vengeance HyStrike Missile, a BGM-5 Hatchet or BGM-6 Battle Axe missile, a GWS.58 Hurricane or GWS.57 Erne.
They are fictional. I can't say about each, but half of them are internet-found photos with bunches of random numbers taken out of nowhere, showcase examples of unresearched design.
The problem is that drag, and consequently energy losses grow extremely fast with speed. The energy required to travel Mach 5 for a long distance at low altitude simply exceeds the maximum of what can be stored in the chemical propellant.
There are three ways to make a cruise missile which will go Mach 5 all the way:
1) Give it a range of 20-30 miles.
2) Make a multi-stage missile, which will resemble Saturn V in size, but not in payload.
3) Reduce air density (which will also lower sound speed), say, use it on another planet.

Writing nonsense on a webpage doesn't make it true. Weapon design isn't about "I'm times cooler, so I'll increase all numbers ten times". There are actual numbers and formulas, and pretty simple "rules of thumb" which can be used. I can explain some of them on the draftroom forum or even here, but in another topic, if anyone is interested - how to make a realistic design with desired ability. For missiles, the rule of thumb is specific impulse and specific thrust, and the general drag formula is v^3, although very rough at high speeds. To produce a missile with Mach 5 cruise speed instead of Mach 0.8 which existing missiles have (supersonic speeds are reached only on the terminal stage), you have to provide power for 6 times higher speed. Can you estimate the required power and energy increase yourself? Yes, such power can be provided, but only by rocket motors, and for a very short time. Basically such missile burns all its fuel in ten to thirty seconds.


Been RPing here longer than your join date on many nations including this particular nation which lost a few posts, join date and population to the forum move and death/resurrections.
Then you know the drill. Purchase or produce the weapon, in a way that everyone can see it; get to the theater; specify you use exactly that weapon. All that should be done before the launch.
Why have you skipped everything is unknown to me (probably you just weren't interested enough), but, since you are not a newbie, I don't see why you should be exempt from both unwritten rules and common sense. And it is common sense that you specify weapon before the attack, not after it was intercepted.


[/QUOTE]The point is you don't know, you are just observing missiles coming out of nowhere, travelling faster than the speed of sound and heading to the ministry of defense... [/QUOTE]
Again - assuming you have considerable RP experience, you should know that in such case the specific weapon is announced OOC, remaining secret IC.
]

I already did purchase the weapons.

In case you haven't noticed this isn't a realistic game. there are over 900 billion people in this world, for one.



If you are gonna continue to make long pointless posts, both in your RPs and your OOC arguments, I am just going to have to ignore you, maybe you can let Hamilay or Those weird people Rp your forces if you still want your nation to be involved since they seem to know what they are doing.

I already did purchase the weapons.

In case you haven't noticed this isn't a realistic game. there are over 900 billion people in this world, for one.



If you are gonna continue to make long pointless posts, both in your RPs and your OOC arguments, I am just going to have to ignore you, maybe you can let Hamilay or Those weird people Rp your forces if you still want your nation to be involved since they seem to know what they are doing.

OOC: Believe it or not, V10 knows what he is talking about. You're right about NS not being realistic, but my personal reaction to a Mach 5 low-altitude cruise missile would be either the short end of an IGNORE stick or calling in my space fleet, because we would be in FT. Even MT+1 has to have some base in reality, and Mach 5 simply isn't. Not only is fuel a concern, but building something that can withstand the pressure from a speed of over 3800mph isn't a MT+1 (An aside, back in the day we called it PMT, bah I miss 2003).

Now, tech squabbling aside, long posts are generally the mark of a good writer, and therefore a good Rp'er. People who dislike long posts generally are impatient and not great role-players. Just an observation.

Also, the international community doesn't look favorably at random unprovoked launchings of WMD's at peaceful nations. My gut tells me that they are going to be 'duds' IC, but nonetheless, we'll take them as real for now.

IC:
Official Statement ~ T.Hane, Acting King of Barbarosea

To the unknown nation of which the nuclear attack upon Hamilay originated:

The Neverending Dictatorial Land of Barbarosea does not look favorably upon unprovoked nuclear attacks. While I have not had a full briefing yet, it seems that you have committed an act of cowardice. We will not be searching for your attacking subs, but be forewarned that if we were tipped off as to who launched this sheer idiotic attack, we will retaliate with full force, be it conventional or otherwise. We would advise you to detonate your missiles before they reach their intended targets and make yourself known to the international community in a statement of regret. I do not have time to deal with such insolence now, so this will be kept brief. I warn you once again to call off your missiles, for the better of both yourself and the nation of Hamilay.

In Disgust,
Trivium Hane
Acting King
The Neverending Dictatorial Land of Barbarosea
Gholgoth

Believe it or not, V10 knows what he is talking about.

Actually, V10 thinks he knows what he's talking about, but in reality he's been placing himself above the most experienced terran, aerial, and naval designers (many of whom possess or are in the process of entering the armed forces or gaining engineering degrees) on the NS Draftroom while incorrectly convinced of his own superiority.

...but building something that can withstand the pressure from a speed of over 3800mph isn't a MT+1.

Say hello to virtually every rocket launched into space since Sputnik.

Say hello to virtually every rocket launched into space since Sputnik.
OOC:They aren't made to stay in orbit or explode however. Forces in outer space are much different then the atmosphere. Either way, it still isn't feasible for a Mach 5 cruise missile in PMT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Aster

OOC: Very nice find. I can't seem to get the external reference to work, but take into account that these are made to fly at roughly 60,000ft. altitude, and the "top speed", aka I'm assuming final stage is Mach 4.5, and have a range of around 66 mi. I know this is PMT, but that is still a strech. You post leaves something to be desired of, but if you can say that your missiles are travelling at 50-60k ft. and not going farther then say 90mi. I might believe you.

[OOC:
but in reality he's been placing himself above the most experienced terran, aerial, and naval designers (many of whom possess or are in the process of entering the armed forces or gaining engineering degrees) on the NS Draftroom while incorrectly convinced of his own superiority.

I'm not trying to place myself above anyone. I simply note the physics. The energy required for low-altitude flight over a long distance exceeds the energy that can be offered by any chemical propellant engine which could fit in the corresponding missile.
While I'm not in the forces and don't plan to enter, I've got a degree, and have used it since graduating. Sorry if that sounded wrong, but if one claims something far beyond the capabilities of real systems, I expect at least some explanation. Just taking a real missile and multiplying the speed a few times is not an explanation and not a serious design.
I don't mean the people who made these know nothing. Actually, I can name three people on the draftroom which seem to have good knowledge of how armor and firearms function. But the designs where someone takes numbers out of nowhere is unresearched; usually due to just laziness or lack of attention. Sorry, but having no time to check the design for feasibility doesn't make it exempt from the laws of physics.


SG, there are fast missiles. But the speed mentioned is always the maximum speed, not the cruise speed. It is the top of what the missile can get, and it gets that speed by the moment of impact. For instance, AShM P-700 Granit/SS-19 Shipwreck has the top speed of Mach 2.5, but cruise speed only of Mach 0.8, accelerating closely before the target. Land attack missiles are generally even slower.

There are max speed and max range, but they are never reached simultaneously. Max range is measured with the best economic speed; max speed is measured with no regard to range at all. In case of Aster it means that the missile is just pointed near-horizontally and launched straight to reach the top speed before burning out. Well, it could also be noted that SAM missiles usually carry warheads weighing at best a few tens of pounds; SAM have very low payload/launch mass ratio compared to actual land attack missiles. You can't load a 500-kt warhead on one, even scaling it up. Finally, that Mach 4.5 is the terminal velocity at high altitude, not the cruise speed.

]

OOC: I happily admit I know as much about this subject as I do about the behavioural habits of squirrels, so I'll stay out of this. Just about the Phoenix Militia designs... uh, doesn't he have a reputation for designing products full of techwankery?
Those wierd people, why are you posting about a thousand missiles launched or something? Where'd you get that from?

IC:
"Sir, we've determined the trajectory of the missiles. Apparently, they all seem to be heading towards the capital..."
"The nukes are heading towards the capital? Colonel... what are our chances of intercepting them all?"
"To be honest, Mr President, it's not particularly high. Due to the rather small number of missiles, our ABM systems had a reasonable chance. With them all targeting the same position, though, we can expect a... few to get through," Colonel Maybourne finished lamely. He looked at the President, who looked back at him in silence for several moments.
"Very well, Colonel. Go back to your duty." The President stared down at the table.
"Understood, sir. There's nothing more that you or perhaps any of us can do."
"I know, Maybourne... I know."

The ballistic missiles were in range now. Across the coast of Hamilay, hundreds of missile batteries as well as a handful of THELs opened fire on the incoming threats. In the bunker below the Palace, the President of Hamilay and his staff watched with not a little apprehension on the monitor screens as Firestorm rockets headed towards their targets.

A dozen frigates, destroyers and cruisers were also at this point heading at top speed towards the missile launch site. The vice-admiral's orders were clear: find out who fired the missiles. He had received no orders to engage the enemy forces, which confused him somewhat, but shrugged it off. It was probably better this way. Hamilay was about to be hit by several nuclear missiles; she could not afford any more losses today.

OOC: I happily admit I know as much about this subject as I do about the behavioural habits of squirrels, so I'll stay out of this. Just about the Phoenix Militia designs... uh, doesn't he have a reputation for designing products full of techwankery?
Those wierd people, why are you posting about a thousand missiles launched or something? Where'd you get that from?

IC:
"Sir, we've determined the trajectory of the missiles. Apparently, they all seem to be heading towards the capital..."
"The nukes are heading towards the capital? Colonel... what are our chances of intercepting them all?"
"To be honest, Mr President, it's not particularly high. Due to the rather small number of missiles, our ABM systems had a reasonable chance. With them all targeting the same position, though, we can expect a... few to get through," Colonel Maybourne finished lamely. He looked at the President, who looked back at him in silence for several moments.
"Very well, Colonel. Go back to your duty." The President stared down at the table.
"Understood, sir. There's nothing more that you or perhaps any of us can do."
"I know, Maybourne... I know."

The ballistic missiles were in range now. Across the coast of Hamilay, hundreds of missile batteries as well as a handful of THELs opened fire on the incoming threats. In the bunker below the Palace, the President of Hamilay and his staff watched with not a little apprehension on the monitor screens as Firestorm rockets headed towards their targets.

A dozen frigates, destroyers and cruisers were also at this point heading at top speed towards the missile launch site. The vice-admiral's orders were clear: find out who fired the missiles. He had received no orders to engage the enemy forces, which confused him somewhat, but shrugged it off. It was probably better this way. Hamilay was about to be hit by several nuclear missiles; she could not afford any more losses today.

OOC: I meant warheads. With the warheads/missile numbers SG gave, I just did the math and put it together. 120 SLBM's with 8 500kt warheads each+5 20mt warheads equals out to about 1000 warheads. The warheads seperate from the missiles near the descent stage of launch, which is when the X-1 Strike Craft attempted interception. And I don't know much of anything about any of that stuff either. Plus the phoenix arms thing was just to show that there were mach5+ cruise missiles on NS, but whether or not they're possible I don't know. I don't tend to buy from storefronts, so I'm clueless as to sellers reputations. And right now I don't really have anything to add to the RP, so I'm going to watch for now...

Admiral Bigatov was pacing back and forth on the command deck of his Flagship submarine when he heard a series of beeps on one of the consoles to the left of him. He looked inquisitively at the sub's commander and waited to be clued in.

"It looks like they weren't able to stop them all, our analysts are predicting several megaton hits..." the Captain said.
"Very well, Do it!" The Admiral said nodding at the weapons technician to his right.

The technician flipped up a large plexiglas cover and mashed a large red button with the palm of his hand and spoke a single word: "Aye"
And with that, all of remaining missiles disintegrated in controlled implosions, as planned, still 12 miles out to sea. The microscopic bits of vaporized missiles would never be identified, and Strategic Grace would have many years to carefully study the telemetry from its sensors and probes to judge the responses and effectiveness of their nuclear arsenal, and plan for a better delivery system one day...




(OOC: I don't wanna play with you guys anymore, bye.)

[OOC:
Well, my pre-written post arrived a bit late...
Still - SG, you really ought say what you used when you described the attack, but I'll finish it as if these are really Mach 5 missiles, but, as for all cruise missiles, Mach 5 being top speed, not cruise.
And, BTW, what were we fighting over, if you didn't intend them to pass anyway? [insert preferred smiley]
]


...Groups of cruise missiles were flying towards the coast, gradually reduced by fighters. A few more nuclear explosions lit up the sea, but there were dozens still flying.

There were only tens of miles to the coast. Richard went back to their channel. "Should we fire now?" - there was really no need to ask, but this clearly wasn't the time to decide on the authority. After hearing quick "Yes", he started to commence the usual procedure.
"ADF-1840! All, receive target data! Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot! Clean the flank at two o'clock! Bravo, Gamma,..." - he stopped, as there was only two planes with him left - "..Follow me, engage at ten o'clock!"
- "Copy that!" - pilots responded in unison.
- "Ready am-ram! Confirm targets!"

There was actually no need to do all this - while Arroyo avionics weren't as advanced as the new toys that rolled out from Gecko, such a simple task didn't require pilot intervention since their aging Eagles were donated to schools. And even on Eagles, every teenager from their land knew how to choose targets in a group combat and launch missiles while keeping silence. Ones who followed textbook were quickly beaten at school games by their worse schoolmates who didn't read it, as finding the frequency was a matter of little time. Later, when he decided to become a professional pilot, he learned in the Academy that the textbook was filled with bureaucratic nonsense intentionally, to test and develop children's independent thinking. Half of their squad were from the same school, and it was Andrew who first scrapped the procedures and made wing codes for his class. Probably he ought be in the Richard's place now...
Again. Whatever he thought, it led to this loss. Following outdated, pointless procedures was just the best way to forget about losing their wingman for a while.
- "Open bays! Fire!"

AMRAAMs fell out of the fighters and went after the cruise missiles. Nearly simultaneously a number of explosions lit the sky even brighter.
Suddenly, the missiles closest to the coast split apart, their rear halves falling down and the rest boosting, leaving wide trails of smoke.
- "It's too late!" - shouted Richard into the radio - "Do something!!"

Su-47 left the missiles in the middle of the formation and rushed ahead with full afterburners. They managed to shoot down a dozen more, but soon even their engines couldn't match the rocket motors reaching Mach 5. Launching the missiles, they finally downed the first wave fell down, but a few dozens behind were still left, and taking them out would be unmanageable now.
There was little choice after the X-16 left ahead, and Richard was already screaming. "To hell with EMP, shoot all you can!"



Andrew was floating in the ocean, his suit keeping him dry and warm - at least this worked as intended. He shot a signaling rocket upwards and conunued waiting, beaten by the waves, but afloat. He went ahead of the orders and lost his plane, one of the sixty million caps birds their squad didn't normally deserve. If there was a customer, the company wouldn't lose the billion dollars they were worth on the market. Will he be fired?...
But they were intercepting nuclear missiles, and that meant an award. Missiles aimed at a potentiall ally - a serious award. He was saving lives, and, maybe, sacrificing a fighter could only play well for the company. That had political value, and Richard will surely cover him up, telling it was his order - two awards. They were under command of a different department, and that meant another one from NDD.

Aerospace Logistics was generally very reluctant to give out medals. They always positioned themselves as a peaceful corporation, and the Nonconsensual Delivery Department as just necessary security. Even NDD had operators and coordinators, not officers and generals. Medals system was demanded by a faction of former generals, the most talented strategists ALC could hire from all over the world, attracted not as much by huge salaries as by the opportunity to command high-tech, excellently trained forces. Despite medals introduced, it was a general practice that if someone refused an award, he could ask his superior for anything sensible, and that would be granted.
It usually was a large salary increase, immediate financial assistance, a good gift like a luxurious house or a personal plane, extra vacation (sometimes yearly), and even three-day weekend or six-hour workday, although most pretended to be workaholics and avoided such requests. Basically anything even remotely sensible could be granted, and, with such choice, very few really fell for the medals, and wearing them was seen as playing a weasel. Both the generals were happy having medals to award and receive, and the company avoided a militaristic image, the awards basically remaining the same monetary bonus system.
Andrew could double his income at least, but he had made a decision already. Well, his immediate superior couldn't do that, of course... moving to another department was not that hard, but he wanted to join the X division of NDD, the ones which were flying with them today. He didn't match the aces there, but their action had to be noted on the international arena, and, if that went high enough, probably a three medal worth request could break through. After all, the commander already saved him, and it took just a word to let him in. Maybe it isn't be too polite to ask your manager to help you move out of his command, but it was the chance.
An Osprey showed on the horizon. Andrew fired another rocket, and the tiltrotor turned towards the downed pilot.


F-22 were turning towards the central group of missiles, ignoring the risk, and sidewinders already pursued the first targets.
Suddenly, massive explosions filled the air above the sea, fighters barely managing to turn away from them. Just about ten miles to the coast, the missiles were gone, only huge steam clouds reminding of the possible outcome. Shocked and relieved, Richard headed towards the city on the coast, not detracting other pilots with voicing his orders. Whether they did it or it was an accident, everything was over.

Hamilayan bases around the country watched with surprise as the blips suddenly disappeared from their tracking screens.
"What happened to the radar?" said the President sharply.
"There's nothing wrong with the radar, sir..." said Colonel Maybourne, his voice rising with some elation.
"Then what-"
"Reported a controlled detonation of all missiles before they hit intercept range. We're still checking, but threat seems to be neutralised."
"All missiles neutralised?"
"Yes, sir."
Wild cheering broke out through the bunker.

"All right, we avoided this incident, but I want forces still in a state of readiness for the next few days. Patrols out at sea and nuclear missiles still on alert. Lower the level to Defcon 2."
"Yes, sir. I'll see to it right away."

The Hamilayan government was now, understandably, very on edge about nuclear attack. The date for the launch of the system was now sped up, and it would be operational as soon as possible.

Official Barbarosean Government Communication to the government of Hamilay
The Neverending Dictatorial Land of Barbarosea wishes to commend the nation of Hamilay on creating such a project for a global interest. Barbarosea would like to contribute to the GSMDP by the means of fiscal aid. We understand that Hamilay has established a policy of barring dictatorships from this project, but we believe that you will forgo your strict policies for a nation of our stature. We have found reserves enough to fund approximately USD$6,200,000,000,000 (6.2T), along with all of the maintaining costs every year (approx. USD$200,000,000,000 (200B)). We wish for the government of Hamilay to consider our offer and respond in a prompt manner.

With Regards,
Trivium Hand
Acting King
The Neverending Dictatorial Land of Barbarosea

The Democratic Republic of Hamilay accepts Barbarosea's participation in the project. After consideration [OOC: i.e. the Treasury said "Z0MG PHR33 MONEYS! :p ], we have agreed to relax the rules towards dictatorships, seeing that The Dictatorial Land affords basic civil rights to its citizens. We warmly thank Barbarosea for their generous contribution.

OOC: I started a launch/conference/construction etc. thread, anyone interested?

You really ought to post the link - I'll have to seek it again.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12054157#post12054157

Actually, I think keeping it all in one thread would be better.

Commincation to the Administrative Faculty of Hamilay, (Wired from the Packden of Byrrylic Territories)

After careful deliberation, we feel that we maybe able to invest some of the money of Byrrlium's people into Your missle defence scheme, after the recent demonstrations of its effectiveness.

We apologise that we were "Straddling the fence" If you will, for a while, but we were unsure of the effectiveness or even the finacial stability of this scheme.

However, we regret to add that we will not be able to add any funds in the near future, however... our funding is all locked up for the next few cycles during some essensial revamping of the Healthcare system, not to mention our attempts to secure (Or at least cordon off) parts of northwest Byrrylic Packlands after the unfortunate "Incident" with the new home defence scheme.

Hoping to keep in touch:
El Presidente
(Signed by Jhona Kal, and representatives from Packlands Arfarfanark through Morpork)

[OOC: Please copy-paste the post here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12054157]

Official Request from Allanea

Can we join?

Since the basic system is complete at the moment, participation in a new capabilities extension program would be required. To get the cover of the Branch I system, the express permission of Hamilay is required. It can also be done via a mutual missile defense pact, under which nation's missile defense resources are bound to assist in the system. As of now, the Branch II is in the planning stage and will be launched soon.

Bump to confirm this arrangement is still active despite the age, still accepting applicants, and so on.

I think I'll take a part of Hamilay's responsibility to maintain this, assuming now we'll extend the system with this:
http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1086

Basically having our own design.

Hamilay, please post here if you see this.

Eep, this is still alive? I mean, I did assume it was ICly operational. Yes, seeing it. No problems - you know far more about how this stuff works than I do. How many Dachnik systems do we plan on producing?

One of the Su-47 rushed right into the steam mushroom, made a barrel turn and approached the falling fighter. Making a barrel turnover, it released the landing gear and went below the Raptor, in half a minute equalizing the speed, and hit it with the gear, leaving dents in the skin.

OOC: I was very interested in joining this initiative until war broke out and people started throwing in impossible events. I like Vault 10's RP, except for this part here which is impossible for so many reasons.

1) If it was a nuclear explosion and (for the sake of argument) the aircraft were shielded from a blast of EMP that close, how did the Su-47 pilot fly into the mushroom cloud right after the explosion and not be affected by the shockwave and pressure ridge traveling at supersonic speeds outward which should have torn the F-22 and the Su-47 to tiny bits of scrap.

2) How did the Su-47 fly into the mushroom cloud and not have the pilot dead from the extremely massive dose of radiation?

3) How did the Su-47 go from supersonic to sub-200knots and extend their landing gear (upside down mind you) in that short period of time? The Su-47 has an 6-8 second cycle time when extending their gear, and it needs to be under 200 knots or it would be sheared off (or at least mangled) by the air pressure against it. The F-22 would have to be going under 200 knots for this to work at all.

4) With air turbulence, especially when introducing landing gear that close to other aircraft, it would be extremely hard if not impossible for the 'savior' to have made solid contact. Especially when she would have had to guess as to when to move her aircraft in the negative g's for she would not have been able to see if her landing gear was properly aligned.

5) There are many areas on the F22 that are very thin and the pressure required to 'bump' the F-22 back to stable flight quite possibly (most likely) would rupture the skin of the aircraft, deflate or destroy the Su-47's landing gear and possibly result in a mid-air collision.


Just a few things I thought were wrong with that post an killed the very good rp you had going.

Eep, this is still alive? I mean, I did assume it was ICly operational.
Well, I wanted to bump this up before/instead of creating another thread, TGing old participants.
Though note the condition for going on with this one will be some significant edits to the charter... Really, I think, I might rather create a new thread for the interest anyway (people tend to jump into fresh threads).

Currently I've got about 100,000 satellites in orbit or ready to launch on demand, plus 125,000 in Wagdog (if he joins), plus potentially some others - I plan on bringing the capacity up to at least 400,000-500,000. Each satellite carrying 20 attack vehicles, the system will have 10 million vehicles, giving 300-1500 times the kill capacity of the current 3,200 BP satellite network.

The rules of project will change though, but I plan to integrate the GSMDP into it. Into GSMDP v.2, or something like that.

The main new rule will be that the nations will be able integrate their current defense systems into the project, out of which 50% will have guaranteed coverage of their territory (i.e. still where they want, but obliged to assist when able) and 50% be relocatable by the Initiative as required for the nation under attack.

Any input or advice?

OOC: No time for an IC as of now, but yeah I'm interested in this. Also, are those the numbers V10?:confused: I thought it was closer to 225,000 satellites or so, counting four Dachnik sats per Jager missile (of 50,000 I recall ordering off the top of my head) and one per Yanodachi missile (of 25,000 I know I ordered for sure); whatever the count yeah we can consider the Jagers at least part of this and I'd gladly launch 'em under this scheme. Might want to retain the Yano's under my national control, but I'm flexible there so it could be discussed.

IC to come some time later tonight most likely. Need to start getting ready for my shift today, so I doubt I'll have any posting time this afternoon. As for input/advice, that balance of responsibility you note for national versus initiative defense sounds good so far.:cool:

2 Karshkovia:
Hey, come on, this was about fun. I deliberately made some "movie tricks" waiving a bit of realism for the story - as it was about the single characters, not the winning. And I barely remember what was going on... it was over a year, damn it! Will need to try reading again.

1) If it was a nuclear explosion and (for the sake of argument) the aircraft were shielded from a blast of EMP that close, how did the Su-47 pilot fly into the mushroom cloud right after the explosion [...]
2) How did the Su-47 fly into the mushroom cloud and not have the pilot dead from the extremely massive dose of radiation?
Not right after. The steam mushroom from a sea explosion stays for a long time - and a fighter makes 15 miles in a minute. One minute is enough to cross from safe zone into the very center.

The pilot was flying into the cloud, not the explosion. The doze of radiation is actually very small then.


3) How did the Su-47 go from supersonic to sub-200knots and extend their landing gear (upside down mind you) in that short period of time? The Su-47 has an 6-8 second cycle time when extending their gear, and it needs to be under 200 knots or it would be sheared off (or at least mangled) by the air pressure against it.
[...] the pressure required to 'bump' the F-22 back to stable flight quite possibly (most likely) would rupture the skin of the aircraft, deflate or destroy the Su-47's landing gear and possibly result in a mid-air collision.

The post had "in half a minute equalizing the speed" - that is quite a bit more than the time required. Also, by that bump I meant prolonged pressure, not just a hit. The fighter wasn't 'bumped', but rather carefully pressed up. Up enough to put it into higher AoA, not transfer airspeed. Heh, weird, come to think of that, but whatever.
BTW, the bottom skin is one of the thickest parts; it's designed to handle the lift and load at high-g maneuvers. And it's reinforced by the dense structure, which the gear is certain to hit. Maybe it even was torn, who cares - the pilot ejected in seconds.

Also, any source about airspeed limit being 200 knots? That fighter's takeoff speed is not much less than that. Plus take into account the mandatory strength reserve, plus the reserve required for rough landings. If that's not enough, the gear was reinforced, after all, it was a special-built fighter for a pilot with a habit of doing some such things (before in the comedic RP about royal dog seeking marriage).
Note also that the EMP-killed fighter was slowing down already.

Especially when she would have had to guess as to when to move her aircraft in the negative g's for she would not have been able to see if her landing gear was properly aligned. Actually, she's not some random pilot, but our best ace. (Second best, really, but officially first for PR reasons).
And the title of second best ace means a lot in a nation where aircraft are the main mode of transportation.



BTW, really, did these realism stretches kill the entire RP? When far crazier things happen in movies, no one complains. Besides, this *is* somewhat possible, just needs certain assumptions.
Though I'm surprised someone went as far as to check *that* part for realism, and even more that someone actually noticed realism stretch in that... But thanks for pointing that out, anyway.

ooc: NP just an aviation /military aircraft buff (private IFR pilot as well) It didn't kill the RP per say, just made me think "damn, it was great up to that point and I was really into the story then the maneuver just pulled me out of the believability"

Basically all aircraft with retractable landing gear have these V-speeds:

VLE which is the maximum speed at which the aircraft may be flown with the landing gear extended.

VLO which is the maximum speed at which the aircraft may be flying while raising or lowering the gear.Although VLO is designated as one speed, in most cases it will have seperate extension and retraction speed.

Many aircraft can extend the gear at VLE, but (because of possible G-loading in climbout) must retract the gear at a lower speed. For example the Piper Seminole can extend the gear at its VLE of 140 but must be below 109 to retract the gear, thus VLO is read as 109/140 instead of a single airspeed.

Another factor to consider is the direction of drop of the nose-wheel. In aircraft where the nosewheel retracts forward into the fuselage, the Vle can actually be higher than Vlo.

With US airplanes F-16, F-22, F-15, A-10 all have a VLE under 200 knots (normally 150 to 180.)

Russian aircraft like the Su-27, MiG-29, Su-32 and Su-25 use km/h (metric system of units) and are all rated under between 250-290km/h

I have to find my current copy of Jane's to verify exact speeds though. Still good writing. Would love to join the SMDP if you have room (since Karshkovia also just finished rebuilding the old soviet Cosmodrome, we have a brand new facility that has not been used)

OOC:
OOC: No time for an IC as of now, but yeah I'm interested in this. Also, are those the numbers V10? I thought it was closer to 225,000 satellites or so, counting four Dachnik sats per Jager missile (of 50,000 I recall ordering off the top of my head) and one per Yanodachi missile (of 25,000 I know I ordered for sure); whatever the count yeah we can consider the Jagers at least part of this and I'd gladly launch 'em under this scheme. Might want to retain the Yano's under my national control, but I'm flexible there so it could be discussed.
25,000, but we can change this to 50,000 as the project comes.

Actually it will be simpler, you can even count them towards initiative contribution. I recognize exactly that point, that's why one keeps control over up to 50% of his arsenal involved in the program. It means you can leave the 25,000 point systems under your full control, they will only be obliged to help others after they're launched, as long as that doesn't compromise your protection (i.e. you're not in danger), or if there are no "common" systems.

Think of it as shared vs common concept - like in college you're supposed to share your pen with your neighbor if he needs it, but only if you don't need it now, if he won't break it, and if you have that pen. On the other hand, at a friends party the drinks you've brought are put to common use, and it would be rude to drink them alone just because they're yours, or to bring nothing [not always, of course].
That's the idea here. Half your defenses are shared like your pen, you have full priority to them, including the right to keep them non-launched. Half your defenses become common for the project.

Of course, that proportion can be changed, i.e. one may decide to build more common defenses than he must, for extra influence in the initiative; or build extra defenses but only share them. And people will perhaps keep some outside the initiative for exclusive use, though there's not much reason to keep much, considering that shared defenses are pretty much yours - they can be used at will, and are exclusive when you're in danger.


BTW, the initiative won't immediately launch all of rapid-deployment systems, at least these, as they aren't exactly built to last in orbit.* They will be kept to be launched in crisis time and to replace the belt satellites that break down.
Though I might make a special clause specifically for shared Dachnik systems about mandating some minimal average yearly launch rate to count as shared (so one can't stockpile them all in shafts until they rust to dust). Which doesn't mean you don't get to have reliable point defense - you can keep all shafts full, just launch the oldest or least needed ones and replace them routinely.


* That's how they get such low price. Something reliable and lasting would cost over ten times more. This isn't meant to be built and forgotten, it's a dynamic system which you maintain by building, launching, replacing the orbiters. Because even a simple fence needs to be repaired once in a while.
But for simplicity, as most players wouldn't bother to, the Initiative organizers will take the duty of keeping this schedule on themselves; for shared defenses, I'll release a guide which I presume most will "check" to follow.




VLE which is the maximum speed at which the aircraft may be flown with the landing gear extended.
At which the aircraft [B]is allowed to be flown with the gear extended. It's not the speed at which that gear will be torn off, it's where it just shouldn't be used. Many planes have stall speeds of around 140 knots.
But high strength reserve is the key requirement in any combat aircraft design. Of course that trick was not among the permitted maneuvers, it was perhaps at the bounds of the capabilities.

But note that plane was unique, custom-built, with heavily reinforced and streamlined landing gear, and I'm not just retconning. The pilot in question originated in comedic RPs where she was known for not 100% realistic tricks, like flying feet above a road with gear extended, sort-of-"landing" atop a small airliner at low altitude, and other things.
As for the turbulence, first, FSW greatly reduce the effects, second, thrust vectoring helos, third, the "Ace" card to pull out the extreme difficulty.

Though I admit I did put far less regard to realism in favor of doing something unique. Have that habit when we're talking about things which don't affect the war, like just one non-ace pilot. Would be hypocritical in big important things as I'm known in NS as the main realism-creeper (ask on the Draftroom IRC if you doubt). But for such unique events... well, despite the stretch, I think I'd even put this into the script if I was writing one for a movie, because that should look cool.


I was very interested in joining this initiative until war broke out and people started throwing in impossible events. You mean along the reading, or back when it started? BTW, what nation have you been then? TG if you don't want it to be too public, or don't TG if you want to keep it fully private, I'm just wondering..

ooc:I would like to keep my old nation as a memory. I grew tired of having a large 04 nation that no younger nations would rp with for fear of invasion. I decided to let that nation go and just focus on Karshkovia. I never really liked where my old nation was heading, and playing 'the bad guy' just doesn't suit me.

So I picked a new nation and story arc and here I am starting out fresh again. I know I could resurrect the old beast but I don't want to be associated with that nation anymore. I want my RP to stand on it's own with no preconceived notions because of my nation's past was. Hell, I don't even remember the password I used for it. he he he.

But anyway, I would like to join this GSMD project if there are slots left available. Again, Karshkovia has just finished rebuilding the old soviet Cosmodrome on their soil and is willing to throw in a few billion dollars as well as the free use of it's cosmodrome for launching some of the satellites and space station modules.

OOC:
Heh. As a matter of fact, I was around since 2004 as well, but got nuked and decided to leave. Only to return later when it struck me how much fun it can be to RP a post-nuclear nation...

About joining, consider yourself about to be accepted, but it will take some time to set up the new thread. I want to make a new thread, in the end, because it's easier to integrate an older initiative rather than recover an old one.

I'll be leaving soon, though (read http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=1982 for detail), but I'll get net access there; besides, I might finish it before.


P.S. Check TGs.

Well, I wanted to bump this up before/instead of creating another thread, TGing old participants.
Though note the condition for going on with this one will be some significant edits to the charter... Really, I think, I might rather create a new thread for the interest anyway (people tend to jump into fresh threads).

Currently I've got about 100,000 satellites in orbit or ready to launch on demand, plus 125,000 in Wagdog (if he joins), plus potentially some others - I plan on bringing the capacity up to at least 400,000-500,000. Each satellite carrying 20 attack vehicles, the system will have 10 million vehicles, giving 300-1500 times the kill capacity of the current 3,200 BP satellite network.

The rules of project will change though, but I plan to integrate the GSMDP into it. Into GSMDP v.2, or something like that.

The main new rule will be that the nations will be able integrate their current defense systems into the project, out of which 50% will have guaranteed coverage of their territory (i.e. still where they want, but obliged to assist when able) and 50% be relocatable by the Initiative as required for the nation under attack.

Any input or advice?

Well, this is a bit old, and the RP is now irrelevant, so creating a new thread would be best. I don't know what you have in mind for the new rules, so you should probably do the creating.

And you can't leave! Who will make my designs and treaties work now? :(

OOC: My nation already has a missile armed satellite in space, coincidently. However we're very interested in perusing further advances in space weaponry.

Hey, I haven't said I'm leaving for good! It was TPF who overdramatized the situation.
Really it will only be a short while - there's a good chance I'll get the net access aboard. I know the skipper somewhat, I've worked with him on the minor refit of his ship, so I'm getting as good conditions as the rank permits. For sure getting a two-man stateroom, at least, with place for the stuff, own computer is required for the job anyway. Everyone is already entitled to internet access (even enlisted, though only email is guaranteed for them), all that's left is for the comms to unlock enough restrictions for me, which I think they'll do. It's not the Chairforce, but still. Plus I got the time until we ship out.


OOC: My nation already has a missile armed satellite in space, coincidently. However we're very interested in perusing further advances in space weaponry.
I think we'll make some advance membership policy for small nations. So they can join despite small contribution, but with progressing contribution as they grow, until reaching sufficient for full membership. Such nations will receive only limited use of the system, i.e. the Initiative won't send all their assets to defend them (as in case of full members), but will provide protection on second-priority basis, with limited expense, and with a stricter check for the reasons.

Putting it simple, you won't get 100,000 expensive satellites relocated to your orbit as soon as someone threatens you, just those that happen to be around. And objects other than civilian cities will only be protected if you haven't provoked the strike. These limitations will last for a while until your nation grows somewhat and can be viewed as a full partner in such a system.

A similar policy of second-priority protection will be applied to full partners that have quit or are suspended (i.e. on the grounds of a war with another member).

Hey i'm not that small. My nation's pop is over 100 million strong. We have 10x more people than Switzerland.

Point taken. But, you've yet got a small nation by NS standards - you physically wouldn't be able to contribute as much as billion+ nations.
So that's the idea, if you can't afford the program yet, you get limited coverage for a while; that will be enough for a war against another 200-500 million nation, but not against some multi-billion one [which one shouldn't test until large enough]. Once you got more experience and size (just in a couple months), the coverage becomes full.