NationStates Jolt Archive

It has come to my attention in recent months certain negative trends in many posts contained within the NS forum. Trends which, if left unchecked, will totally cripple NS in the future. First, there are the good posters who never post anymore due to perfectionism syndrome, this leads to the other all degradation of quality upon these boards. Second, the bad posters are not punished, they are left to their own devices and appear universally accepted for no reason whatsoever, which means they are then allowed to influence the behavior of others. Third, the tendency to explain away techwank as a mere plot device, when in all actuality, it is just tech wank that ruins the story, and inspires others to wank ad infinitum. And point number four, the rampant spread of technology over characters and the repetitiveness of most threads is leaving NS a dull hole of literary trash. However, there is a way to salvage NS and save it's soul.

First, we have to eliminate the fear inherent in those we call good posters, the new and the old. Generally, it takes a good poster much longer to make a post than does a poster of average or poor quality. Some will contend this is acceptable behavior, and nothing which needs work. However this is patently false; good posters make good posts no matter if they spent an entire day working on one, or if they built one up in an hour. Time spent will not significantly improve the overall quality of a post, only when the author is careless will they need to spend time on a post for revisions.

It is also due to the mistaken assumption that descriptive detail is always important; it's not. The only details important to a story are those that are pertinent to the advancement of the story. Example: You do not need to describe the interior of every room on every ship and you also do not need to go into great detail about small talk between characters. It's boring, serves no purpose, makes writing more of a chore than a joy, and holds other people who are also participating up for longer than they should be. This means that you only describe things that mean something to the story, things that people must know in order for the story to make sense.

Also, worrying about what others will think of your posting just causes anxiety. This is something that is inherent to teenagers such as in high school: too embarrassed to move, talk, laugh, or do anything because they think everyone is watching them, and judging them. Few people in life judge your every action, this is proven when you ask yourself this question: "Do I judge everyone all the time based on their every single action?" The answer, is of course an emphatic no. No because the time required to judge constantly does not exist in our lives. So it makes no sense to worry about being judged on your post quality. If it's good people will tell you, if it's bad, well that brings me to my second point.

It is a sad day in the world when the bad go unpunished. That is something we can all agree on. So why then do we let the bad posters continue to do as they do lately? It is due to laziness: people would rather just grudgingly tolerate the bad posters than go through the effort of making them better. However, this does more harm than good. Imagine Hitler: did appeasement make him go away? Did tolerating him make the world a better place? Certainly not. Appeasement only allows others to run roughshod over you, and makes bad situations progressively worse. So we can conclude that allowing the bad posters to continue to be bad, makes our world a progressively worse place to live.

Why? Because the people being tolerated never improve but regress, and this in turn puts those who do the tolerating under more stress. Stress is bad for writing after a point, and when it reaches this point then the overall writing quality goes down for both parties involved. Plus, is it not wrong to torture those whom we deem to be bad posters by allowing them to remain in their current state, and then bitching at them instead of trying to teach them to be better? It's just abuse. Plain and simple abuse. And unless abusing other people is now permissible, then that is just another reason to help the bad posters improve as much as we are able. This will require a concentrated effort by all the parties involved, and a degree of leading by example, that is to say, we encourage the bad posters to improve their writing ability, and to avoid technology over character development.

So now I am brought to my third point, plot devices and their relevance. A plot device is something that facilitates the advancement of a story. It is totally relevant to the plot. A plot device is the death star: it was nothing more than a device that further told the story, of the struggle between the Rebellion and the Empire. Another example would be the hyperspace wormhole technology from the glorious Commonwealth Sage by Peter F. Hamilton: it was fast, could NOT be interdicted unless by another generator of wormholes, and could even be used on the offense. This would be wank in NationStates due to the typical way in which technology is used, however, when used in a way that advances and complements the story, it is then a plot device. An explanation as to how wormhole technology works was never given in Hamilton's books, but that didn't make it wank, only wank ever needs an explanation.

That is to say: having a perfectly scientific explanation as to why something works, valid it does not make. I have a ship that can destroy the universe due to a property of the string theory I can abuse. Is that any less wanky with reasons for why it can do what I claim it can do than if I just said it can destroy the universe so hah? There is no difference. It is wank regardless of development, of explanation, or technical description. It does not add to the story, it does nothing but gratify myself if I truly had one. So there needs to be an understanding by all that technology can be wanky no matter if you have a degree in science, or if you're a total fucking idiot. Somehow this is acceptable now, somehow the idea gained support and people are willing to follow along with it now. It's one of the most dangerous trends, especially as it concerns technology in an RP.

However, this brings me to my fourth and final point, that technology is the bane of Nationstates. You must ask yourselves as to whether or not a good book is good because of the technological explanations, or if it's good because of the complex characters, the development of them as people, and their impact on what happened in that story? Look at Romeo and Juliet: the description of battles, or the swords, or the wagons did not make the story one of the best in human literary history: it was the interactions between two realistic characters and the impact those interactions had on other people during a conflict. This is still true today. Look at the Dune series: was it good because of technobabble descriptions, or the impact one man had on an entire planet, and the actual telling of how he had accomplished his goals? If we are to improve the current state of NationStates then it has to be known that technology does not make a good story. I've seen it attempted in the ESUS/GFFA war thread, and it bores me too tears, I've seen it in many other threads as well, and the same thing happened.

Those threads also act as good examples of the lack of creativity as of late: how many of the threads posted for NSFT have the exact same themes as other threads? Scene + Warfleet + Cries of wank and godmoddery + no resolution = the typical FT RP. Does this serve any purpose? Does this simple and boring formula do any of us any good? No. Because that means nothing done has any meaning. Does a great battle in space have any significance if it happens about ten times a day everyday? Answer is again no. Things around the NS FT world need to have relevance, they need to have meaning, they need to have an affect on the world at large or it's all just a bunch boring garbage.

In summation the poor state of nationstate can be blamed on the quality posters not posting, either due to worry about being judged or the belief in uberlong descriptions, and also on those same quality posters not educating and correcting the poor posters, allowing them to continue with their bad habits. As well as the belief in technology: that if it can be explained it is not wank, and that it acts as a good substitute for realistic characters for the story. The only way to correct any of this is a massive attitude shift: quality posters fucking post, and correct the shitty posters both young and old; forget about technology unless it facilities the telling of a good story, and remember that the characters and a sense of meaning and relevance are the ones that make that good story a good story. That's the only way we can save nationstates.

Some good points in there. I particularly enjoyed the piece about the typical FT RP. But if you're accusing us of being too scared to post, why aren't you posting on your main account? Shouldn't you know that we won't judge you for this post? I'm 95% certain that you're someone's puppet: an Aug 2006 nation with 54 posts wouldn't be able to go into so much depth, nor would they be able to describe trends such as good players leaving as you did in your opening paragraph. Show yourself!

I commend you for saying something and writing it out in a well organized and detailed manner. I too believe that there is something going wrong with NS in general. However, I disagree with you on most points.

(Unfortunately I have to go out soon, so I will make this brief.)

...Time spent will not significantly improve the overall quality of a post, only when the author is careless will they need to spend time on a post for revisions.

I disagree with this. A good poster may make a good post whether he spends an hour or a day, but that does not hold true if he spends a minute or an hour on the post. Of course at some point the time spent will not equate to a better post. I could spent a week or a year on a post and it would be the same, but when you get to smaller increments it matters.

This means that you only describe things that mean something to the story, things that people must know in order for the story to make sense.

I disagree on this as well. Description and detail makes for a much more interesting story. You could just stick to the details, but that would be boring. We all know that my military can travel across the world, deploy, create a base on the edge of your border and prepare for war... I could either describe each step or simply say, "My military traveled to your country, set up camp, and are ready for war."

Now I know that you also mean description about every room a person steps into, what the curtains look life, and how the couch feels when they sit down, but that is all for a reason. It creates an image in our heads that we can share with the other RPer. I've always believed that a good fiction book reads such that I sometimes forget I am reading and just remember it like a movie in my mind... images and people talking rather than just words on a page.

I will give you that people go overboard sometimes, but I don't think we should stick to the must know.

So it makes no sense to worry about being judged on your post quality.

I don't think most people intensely worry about what others think about their posts and quality. Maybe they want people to like it as it means it was pleasing (i.e. good in some sense), but I know I don't worry about such things. I worry what I think about my post, but I still don't wait days to post it because I am worried.

However, I do not know whether this is true or not, so I will not argue it further.

It is a sad day in the world when the bad go unpunished.

I find it funny that you would say bad posters should be punished and then say abuse is wrong.

I agree that bad posters should be helped, but at the same time I simply try to stay out of RP with poor RPers as I know I don't have the time to intensely help them beyond a few comments that they will ignore. For example, one of the simplest things to do in order to make your post more pleasing is to run it through a spell checker. I have told/asked/pleaded many people to do such a simple thing, but they usually just ignore it...

Also, I think bringing Hitler into this is as an argument is a poor and cheap tactic. Hitler is the most extreme of everything and should not be used in argument or discussion unless you are debating Hitler, the Nazis, WWIII or something along those lines. (Godwin)

Having a perfectly scientific explanation as to why something works, valid it does not make.

Umm... proven science doesn't validate something?

There are two reasons that your ship that could destroy the universe would be wanky. The first of which is that it ends all RP and RPing ability. However, the second is that it isn't proven by science and thus not validated. String theory is just that, a theory. But yes, that would still be less wanky than if you just said, "It can destroy the universe so hah?"

The problem is that not everything is supposed to further the story. While it is great if you make an interesting story while RPing, that is not the sole point of writing. People (correctly) also wish to win battles.

Technology is the bane of Nationstates.

I will agree with you to some point, but not for the same reasons. I believe it can be the bane because of all the argument it stirs up, not because people describe it in their posts. Again, I remind you that this is not all about stories... people are attempting to run nations in which they want to win wars and if describing your technology does that, that is fine with me.

Quality posters fucking post, and correct the shitty posters both young and old; forget about technology unless it facilities the telling of a good story, and remember that the characters and a sense of meaning and relevance are the ones that make that good story a good story. That's the only way we can save nationstates

I don't believe quality posters are not posting for reasons that you stated, maybe because they are sick of NS or the way it is going, but not because they are scared, anxious, or worried that they need to spend more time. Correcting shitty posters is about the only thing I believe we need to correct. Technology is useful in battles because that is almost all it is about. Telling a good story is great, but people also want to win wars.

Side Note: It seems you are basing a lot of this on FT.


(Again, sorry I had to cut this short, but I have to go.)

...Time spent will not significantly improve the overall quality of a post, only when the author is careless will they need to spend time on a post for revisions.

I disagree with this. A good poster may make a good post whether he spends an hour or a day, but that does not hold true if he spends a minute or an hour on the post. Of course at some point the time spent will not equate to a better post. I could spent a week or a year on a post and it would be the same, but when you get to smaller increments it matters.

Try it for yourself. Spend fifteen minutes writing a paragraph, doesn't matter the subject. Then delete it, and spend thirty minutes on another paragraph of the exact same subject. You will notice that the quality of the second paragraph is not significantly better than the first.

This means that you only describe things that mean something to the story, things that people must know in order for the story to make sense.

I disagree on this as well. Description and detail makes for a much more interesting story. You could just stick to the details, but that would be boring. We all know that my military can travel across the world, deploy, create a base on the edge of your border and prepare for war... I could either describe each step or simply say, "My military traveled to your country, set up camp, and are ready for war."

No, description makes for a boring story. If you describe in extreme detail what everything looks like, and how everything works in any RP, when very little of it has any actual relevance in the big picture of things, you're just wasting space and tiring out your reader. Yes, a one sentence post is a bad thing, it goes to the other extreme on the bellshaped curve. But if you're just made a twenty MSN word page post full of description and detail, when it all could have been condensed into just two MSN word pages, then you're just wasting everyones time.

Now I know that you also mean description about every room a person steps into, what the curtains look life, and how the couch feels when they sit down, but that is all for a reason. It creates an image in our heads that we can share with the other RPer. I've always believed that a good fiction book reads such that I sometimes forget I am reading and just remember it like a movie in my mind... images and people talking rather than just words on a page.

I will give you that people go overboard sometimes, but I don't think we should stick to the must know.


It's for a reason that people think detail + description makes for a good story, it doesn't. Read Niven, or Heinlein, or hell even fucking Ben Bova. Their stories actually contain very little description compared to most authors of both sci-fi and fantasy, but they still manage to tell and extremely interesting story without falling a whole forest in description.

So it makes no sense to worry about being judged on your post quality.

I don't think most people intensely worry about what others think about their posts and quality. Maybe they want people to like it as it means it was pleasing (i.e. good in some sense), but I know I don't worry about such things. I worry what I think about my post, but I still don't wait days to post it because I am worried.

However, I do not know whether this is true or not, so I will not argue it further.

I don't think everyone worries either, something I should have probably said. However, I know that I used to worry over much about my post quality, and I know many people who did and still do the same. In the end, it took days to get a single post up, and all anyone got out of it was stress instead of fun.

It is a sad day in the world when the bad go unpunished.

I find it funny that you would say bad posters should be punished and then say abuse is wrong.

Punishment is not wrong. Abuse is wrong. There is a difference between the two, something I thought most people knew already.

I agree that bad posters should be helped, but at the same time I simply try to stay out of RP with poor RPers as I know I don't have the time to intensely help them beyond a few comments that they will ignore. For example, one of the simplest things to do in order to make your post more pleasing is to run it through a spell checker. I have told/asked/pleaded many people to do such a simple thing, but they usually just ignore it...

Yes, at some point you might have to give up. But that assumes you have put in great effort to make them change into something not horribly shitty for the eyes to behold. My point was that it seems the RPing world at large no longer even tries anymore; they just give up right away. Which is as I said a bad attitude to have if we actually want quality in NS to improve.

Also, I think bringing Hitler into this is as an argument is a poor and cheap tactic. Hitler is the most extreme of everything and should not be used in argument or discussion unless you are debating Hitler, the Nazis, WWIII or something along those lines. (Godwin)

Godwin can go burn in a bit of flaming napalm. While indeed Hitler can be an extreme example, it is a good example of how appeasement never gets anything done. It is perhaps the best example of how just sitting their and taking it actually creates more problems than it solves.

Having a perfectly scientific explanation as to why something works, valid it does not make.

Umm... proven science doesn't validate something?

No it doesn't. As I stated above with my examples.

There are two reasons that your ship that could destroy the universe would be wanky. The first of which is that it ends all RP and RPing ability. However, the second is that it isn't proven by science and thus not validated. String theory is just that, a theory. But yes, that would still be less wanky than if you just said, "It can destroy the universe so hah?"

You seem to miss the point. Which was that lately, people have a tendency to take wank and justify it with science. That in of itself does not make something unwanky or godmodish.

The problem is that not everything is supposed to further the story. While it is great if you make an interesting story while RPing, that is not the sole point of writing. People (correctly) also wish to win battles.

There is nothing to win in nationstates. There is nothing you have gained from any of your wars that has any tangible value whatsoever. Nationstates isn't a wargame, so there is nothing to win and therefore no reason to wank the universe to death with science or no.

Technology is the bane of Nationstates.

I will agree with you to some point, but not for the same reasons. I believe it can be the bane because of all the argument it stirs up, not because people describe it in their posts. Again, I remind you that this is not all about stories... people are attempting to run nations in which they want to win wars and if describing your technology does that, that is fine with me.

As I said above, there is nothing to win in nationstates, and thus no reason to invent the next generation of unstoppable magitech tanks that so oft are the cause of so many arguments in NS. It is the bane of nationstates because of the focus people have put on it for so long, as if it was the most important thing in the NS world and not the RP in which that technology was used. At the end of the day they had (debatably) good technology in a shitty roleplay that only served to ruin their reputation and quality as a whole in this our home, and as I said that needs to change.