NationStates Jolt Archive

So I have pretty much no experiance with making weapons in NS, but I decided to start on the most basic level, my foot sloggers. I wanted a powerful and versatile rifle, and knew it would cost me. However, I am not sure on the materials used and not sure of the price. Beyond that if anyone else has any suggestions, please tell me. I am pretty sure this is not the best item to grace NS, but its a start. I also plan to post other designs in this thread should it pick up.


TAR - 23X

Background:
The 23X was designed to be the first generation of truly modern assault rifles within The Infinite Crucible. Drawing heavily from the OICW the 23X only improves upon its predecessors with further customization options and truly frightening firepower. While the rifle itself has yet to be proved in any major conflict, it has already begun to prove itself a powerful armament in use by the elite crime units of The Infinite Crucible.

The 23X was designed to be the best, no matter the cost. With this in mind the rifle is an amalgamation of titanium and composite carbon. This serves to lower the weight of the rifle while promoting strength and durability. However, this drastically increases the cost of the rifle and makes it a pretty penny to maintain as well.

In terms of the armament that 23X offers unprecedented diversity. Like the OICW it features a design that use both standard and bullpup design, the smaller caliber ammunition in front of the trigger and larger caliber behind. Where is diverges from the OICW is that the 23X use caseless ammunition to lower internal exposure to the harsh desert of The Infinite Crucible and increase ammo capacity. The 23X also diverges from the typical 5.56 NATO in favor of the smaller .221 caliber. This lowers the recoil of the gun in addition to once again increases the ammo capacity. While the stopping power is decreased the majority of the loss is made up for with a much improved muzzle velocity. Should stopping power truly be needed, however, a .223 caliber round can be used.

Like of OICW the rear section is capable of firing 25mm grenades up to a distance of 1000 meters with good accuracy. However, beyond that, the rear section can be switched out, although not in the field, in favor of yet another kinetic rifle. The two major downfalls of .221 ammunition is its shorter range and lack of stopping power, the second kinetic rifle is designed to compensate for this by firing a massive 8.87 x 64 mm round. This enables unprecedented stopping power, an almost necessity in a world filled with incredible armor. This rear kinetic rifle, however, is only capable of a single fire for the purpose of safety.

Finally the target acquisition system, the scope, can be changed to meet a variety of needs. Beyond this a number of extras can be added to enable more specific roles. Detailed information devices can be mounted in the rear section for recon and intel gathering. The fore .221 rifle can be replaced with a grenade launcher. Other enhancements are forthcoming.

Stats:

Caliber: .221 Fireball, 25mm Grenade, 8.87 x 64 mm Obliteration Round
Overall Length: 900mm
Weight Empty: 4.3 kg’s
Weight Loaded: 5.6 kg’s (25mm grenade), 5.8kg’s (8.87 x 64 mm)
Magazine Capacity: 50 (.221), 5 (25mm), 20 (8.87 x 64 mm)
Fire Rate: 800 rounds per minute (.221)
Muzzle Velocity: 1650 mps (.221), 700 mps (25mm), 760 mps (8.87 x 64 mm)
Effective Range: 800 meters
Price: 4500 USD

bump

If you are looking for help designing stuff, you should go to The NS Draftroom (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?act=idx) and post your ideas there. There are tons of people willing to help and offer criticism.

I really wouldn't suggest using three different rounds, as that would make the weapon absolutely MASSIVE, and very difficult to carry.

I also wouldn't suggest using .22 ammo, as it's rather infamous for lack of killing power. Hell, people have been hit by the things and not known they were shot until up to hours later. That and ye olde flak vest (NOT NS grade armor) can stop the stuff. I'd suggest the 6.5mm Grendel round personally, or make your own.

If you want more feedback, I'd personally recommend registering on the NS Draftroom. (http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?act=idx) Plenty o' knowledgable peeps there who're more than willing to help you out.

EDIT: Blast. DMG beat me to it.

Alright, cool I will bring it over there.

Also, thanks for the advice Otagia!

A 8,87mm round? Mate the kick of that is going to be impressive, to say the least..Not to mention controllability problems on full auto..

Your MV for your 25mm grenade section is way way off, almost twice that of the 25x59mmmm OSW/OCSW, a round that has already proven problematical in terms of recoil when fired from a fully supported sniper rifle. for 1000m range you would get away with a much smaller propellant charge and possibly a sub sonic muzzle velocity (ie less than 350m/s).

An average soldier has no need to ever engage anything beyond 600m, at which range most intermediate rounds (ie 6-7mm calibre rounds) are still more than effective so a single rifle for an intermediate round would be much more useful that what is effectively a PDW with the option of strapping on a over complited grenade launcher or an long range sniping system.

25x59mmmm OSW/OCSW
millimillimillimeter?

Alright, here let me see if I can adress some of the issues.

So as far as three different types of rounds goes, that is definetly a lot, however, only the components for two are used in the gun at any given moment, so I think it would remain comparable in size to the OICW.

As far as .221 ammo goes I was actually under the impression that its stopping power was decent, given a fast MV. I am not a gun expert, but a few sources seemed to back that up.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6mm_military_cartridge.htm
(just the one I could find off hand at the moment)

Perhaps I should try to find a way to get good three round burst capability, like the G11, but I think that would drastically change the design.

As far as the kick on the 8.87mm round goes, I know it would be massive, but as long as the soldier stuck to single fire I think it would be manageable.

Alright, I really had no clue what the 25mm MV should have been so I will halve it. As far as 1000m range, that is really just what I read its effective range was on an OICW.

As far as engagement goes, I think Strath has a very valid point about simplicity. The only real reasons I chose this route was the pressence of super armor in NS and style. However, I am still open to change.

Caliber: .221 Fireball, 25mm Grenade, 8.87 x 64 mm Obliteration Round
Overall Length: 900mm
Weight Empty: 4.3 kg’s
Weight Loaded: 5.6 kg’s (25mm grenade), 5.8kg’s (8.87 x 64 mm)
Magazine Capacity: 50 (.221), 5 (25mm), 20 (8.87 x 64 mm)
Fire Rate: 800 rounds per minute (.221)
Muzzle Velocity: 1650 mps (.221), 350 mps (25mm), 760 mps (8.87 x 64 mm)
Effective Range: 800 meters
Price: 4500 USD

So those are the updated stats with the halved MV on the 25mm. I am still considering upping the caliber like Otagia said, but I am not 100% sure yet as the heavier round could take over if kills were not being achieved.

I also wouldn't suggest using .22 ammo, as it's rather infamous for lack of killing power.

True, but it is also famous for wounding and ease of hasndleing on full automatic, making training and logistics that much simpler.

Currently the NATO 5.56 X 45 mm round can penetrate 6 mm of RHA.
That isn't too bad considering that a WW1 .30 caliber AP bullet gave the same penetration.

Hell, people have been hit by the things and not known they were shot until up to hours later.

And that is a bad thing, why? They'll bleed to death, or worse.

The body takes a reletively long time to "feel" anything, such as amputation (w/o anesthesia of course... ever loose a chunk of your middle finger in a car accident and not notice? Or is that just me?).

One also may only feel pain in certain areas, mostly on the skin, that is why papercuts hurt more than being stabbed in the back.

When you do realize it, that effect is called shock, this alone can kill a person if it is powerful enough and not recognized and treated properly. And then there is the fact that you may have a hole in you that may go septic.

The US army did a neat little study on bullets and combat effectiveness back in 1901 while designing the M-1911 (Thompson-LaGarde Tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson-LaGarde_Tests)), their conclusion was thus:
[Soldiers] should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire due to there being no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results.

While another study using medical data from WW2 suggested that the number of hits would be random at best since aiming had become almost pointless (spray and pray), therefore ability of carrying lots of ammo and firing it in a hurry was the goal of the M-16.

Another study showed that a maimed/wounded soldier would cost the enemy much more dearly than if you simply killed him outright.

(Apparently caskets are cheeper than medical supplies, also, someone will have to stop fighting in order to tend to the wounded, most likey exposing themselves to enemy fire while diong so.)

Thats very interesting Hurtful Thoughts, I actually remember reading something about it being a good thing the M16 wounded more than the AK-47 a while ago. The only thing I am worried about is that most people on NS wont really RP the difference logistically between a kill and a wound. Thats why I tried to up the MV, just to give it a bit more stopping power. For the moment I am still going to stick with .221 caliber.

Edit: But as always I am open to suggestion.

bump

The only thing I am worried about is that most people on NS wont really RP the difference logistically between a kill and a wound.

Edit: But as always I am open to suggestion.

Oh, they'll RP their wounded, provided you keep the engagements at squad level, once you start getting up to Platoons they start forgetting that wounded guys make lots of noise.

(In order to avoid having to RP wounded they simply label them 'dead' and keep going [that or they start thinking they have skin of steel, which you may promptly remind them they don't have when you start hitting them in places they aren't armored <and if their armor is all round, then they most likely will be slower than you and you can just shoot an AT shell at them 12" beehive rounds excell at that>])

Anyways, when they start using .50 cal rifle bullets, just point them in the direction of the Thompson-LeGarde tests

Just a bump for the night
Thanks again Hurtful

HT:
the Thompson-LaGarde tests are of debatable relevance as they deal solely with pistol ammunition, which functions in a some what different way to rifle ammunition.

The whole wounding business of the various RCAR rounds is a bit of myth, any fire arm round can kill its just that military rounds are required to put the target down quickly (it doesn't matter if he is dead or not, just as long as he isn't shooting or charging at you anymore), something that small rounds like 5.56x45mm have anecdotally failed to do on a regular basis, particularly from a short barreled weapon.

A .221 round likely has superior penetration capabilities over 5.56x45mm but when rounds get that small you face the choice of either obtaining good penetration or high impact effectiveness, this would still remain a trade off with intermediate rounds but wouldn't be quite so polarised.

As to armour, you would be suprised about what you can armour yourself against and still be fairly nimble these days.

Hmm, I think I have the solution.

What if I were to make the .221 round focus on armor penetration, but have its outermost layer a sort of hard lye or another base. The bullet does the penetration and the lye, or something else, does the internal damage.

I think it may work, what do you guys think?

OOC: There's many sides to this argument, but it will all come down to what you want the weapon to do. Also, no increase in caliber can substitute for proper marksmanship training. It also depends on how your infantry will fight the good fight, i.e. the AK-47 was designed to give the individual infantryman the firepower of a machinegun, and en masse, to overpower the enemy with sheer firepower in support of heavy armor. It was never designed to be an accurate weapon, and simply to spary lead. The rear sight would look better on a handgun, as small as it is.

You've also got to take into account that it would be a good idea to have the same caliber bullet in your light, squad-level support machinegun, from a logistical point of view.

Your enemy also should make a difference. i.e. a nation with power-armor infantry would probably need a special sabot round that penetrates the armor and bounces around within the suit, possibly using a copper slug behind tungsten or something like that, I don't deal much with miniature tank munitions.

You've got four major calibers nowadays, from a modern-tech standpoint, for a battle rifle, and each is listed with a caliber equivalent for easy reference. In the case of the 7.62x39mm and 6.8x43mm, it's listed with a ballistic equivalent:

5.56x45mm (.223 caliber): Has a tendency to tumble, causing an entry wound in the shin to have an exit wound in the shoulder. It's also fairly cheap and light, so mass amounts can be produced and carried. It also allows a lot of them to be crammed into a reasonably sized magazine. The AR-style magazine is also extremely common, making battlefield resupply against a force outfitted with M16-style weapons a snap.

6.8x43mm (.270 caliber): More lethal than the .223, let lighter than the .308. Lower recoil means it's easier to fire for everyone, while it will still keep magazine capacity realtively high (28 as opposed to 30). Battlefield tests confimed six shots to the torso of individual targets, with six kills in total.

7.62x39mm (30.30 caliber): While shorter than all the others, it's still a big bullet and kills effectively. Being short, you can cram a lot into a magazine, and the AK magazine is common enough to make logistics pretty easy, just like the .223 and the AR-style magazine.

7.62x51mm (.308 caliber): One of the most lethal and accurate battle-rifle rounds fielded today, it's also large and recoil-intense. While not as bad as the 30.06, it still kicks enough to be uncomfortable for some. Further, you can't pack as many into a magazine and still keep its weight and size dimensions reasonable. Because of this, it's a common sniper and medium-machinegun round, where weight and recoil aren't big issues.

There are more exotic rounds out there, like the following:

6.5mm Grendel: Smaller 6.8x43mm, yet supposedly better than the .308, according to the sales pitch.

.50 Beowulf: Between the AE and the BMG .50 types, it's a tweener for the .50 caliber breed. Heavy recoil also comes with the stopping power that this caliber provides, as well as a limited magazine capacity (about 5 in a standard AR mag).

5.8mm: The Chinese HV round, similar to the 5.45 Russian and the American 5.56, and similar in most respects, except that it's a bit bigger.

As for a secondary caliber barrel for the OICW-style system, I'd personally add something a little heavier than the standard caliber, like a shotgun-style upper barrel that overhangs the lower barrel, for increased stopping power at close ranges and to support a wide variety of specialty rounds (slug, 00, less-than-lethal for occupying forces), in addition to the option of the indirect-fire 25mm upper-half for the grenadier infantrymen in your fireteams, assuming you use the standard fireteam arrangement of a pair of riflemen, an automatic rifleman, and a grenadier.

Maybe that might make your decision easier, or most people on NS have their own calibers and weapon designs. This is coming from a strict current-use modern-tech standpoint, as I really have no idea what type of enemy you'll be combating.

Well:

The gun youi make depends on what kind of army you want to sell them to:

For mass conscript Amies:
The "Spray and pray" technique is normally what to expect in total war scenario in inclosed spaces.

Therefore, a long(ish) barrel, high velocity small caliber round, that can easily fire a controled burst or fuly auto with a fair degree of accuracy.

With a heavier base than nose, and a weakened front jacket (impact causes bullet to turn around and go rear first upon exit, at some point it is sideways and still spinning upon the axis of the barrel which shot it).

If one ignores the Hauge convention then one is allowed to use more dangerous ammunition.

For mass profesional armies:
A cheap bullet.

Train them to make up for whatever deficiencies of the existing standard rifle cartridge are.

If it is a small "wounding" bullet, train them stealth, give them long barreled guns to improve velocity and penetration, train them to aim and fire short well aimed bursts.

If it is a large bullet, train for marksmanship, able to hit clay pigeons with a battle rifle on semi auto only in order to conserve ammunition. Train them to handle the recoil as well and to take out the enemy at a distance wherever possable.

Elite Armies:
Large Caliber weapon, fully automatic capable, able to kill at long range.

Trained to take the recoil with ease. Able to hit individual targets on full auto.

Computer aided gunsight a must in order to compute lead angle for multiple running soldiers and to hit every one of them without wasting a bullet.

You may also opt to make the gun capable of handling many calibers with only a chamber/action and barrel change on the factory line.