NationStates Jolt Archive

Bam, discuss tech here!

haha nice. but just to say. ITs not a god mod. Governments charge scientists with finding ways to make their troops safer. Thats what i did. Thats like saying Body armor is a god mode. My shield isnt a god mode cause it doesnt protect against everything. Its got an energy weapon thing. Projectiles still work like normal.

thats not really their problem, their problem is i came up with extremely useful technology. theyve probably never lost. Sometimes attacks down cause damage because of Technology the opponent has. LIke say a missle barrage. Well opponent has missle intercepting system that is very effective and destroys the whole barrage. "NO THATS GOD MOD! YOU HAVE TO ATLEAST BE HIT BY ONE!!" I wonder if any of them has ever lost.

NO DEFENSE SYSTEM IS 100% EFFECTIVE. PERIOD. END OF STORY. YOU ARE GODMODDING.

Yes, moron, I've lost before. Look for 'The Battle of the Tarantagio Sea' if you're curious. I took a massive defeat there in a planned naval battle, so don't give me any crap about losing.

It is immune to a certain type of weapon. there are people with sheilds that are immune to some types of energy weapons.this one is immune to all types of energy weapons. not all weapons. if you used rail guns then you wouild not have a problem with this.

well then is MM godmodding when he has tech that is immune to ion cannons?

There is NO defense system which is 100% effective. Having one is godmoding. Read the stickies next time; Having a shield that allows him to ignore my attacks and not take damage is godmoding, plain and simple. For whatever technobabble reason, it's still godmoding.

chech your statistic there jack. No defense system is 100% effective 100% of the time. And no my defense system is 100% effective. Projectiles tear it up. My missle intecept can only handle so much, and railgun shots well cant really intercept them you can only dodge them. some one has stronger tech than you. Find a way around it, like everyone else does.

I know I am not involved in this but I just had to point out some inconsistencies in the description of the way you described the shield operates with some things you added later. For this reason I will quote the entire post unaltered.

you know i get into the same argument all the time. Here let me say how my shield system works. (oh and btw the tech is for sale). I use particle shields, like in startrek. But ive added this cool knew nifty feature. The way a particle shield works is it surrounds the ship with a bunch of particles, when attacked the particles swarm to that spot, to absorb the blast. The generator of this type of shield, gets drained by the movement of the particles and then cant hold the particles together, thus weakening the shield and ultimatly leading to the death of the ship. However the particles i use are engineered. They convert energy weapons, beam cannons, neutron cannons, etc, into the energy that powers the shield generator. The energy is then absorbed and recharges the shield generator keeping up an infinate cycle. But thats only with energy weapons. Projectiles such as rail guns, and missles. that impact and dont explode, weaken the shields with out a regeneration. which is why i also carry 2 back up generators, so a ship can essentially hold out on its own until back up arrives.

NOte: this shielding is only on starships. Fighters dont have shields.

so you see, its not godmodding, its ingenius technology, and i know why u said its godmodding cause i didnt follow ure post. I could tell by the way you worded it you wanted me to say teh ship was destroyed. The whole speil on how it destroys stardestroyers in single hits. but imperial stardestroyers are outdated technology really. To survive in FT u really kinda gotta have imagination to come up with these cool things.

this is why im the most powerful FT nation in my Region. cause i dont just take, star wars tech, or gundam tech or whatever. While i borrow some tech i find ways to improve on it. these shields took forever to produce fricken 25 NS years to create. and trillions of Taxpayers dollers.


Here is your wording:

The way a particle shield works is it surrounds the ship with a bunch of particles, when attacked the particles swarm to that spot, to absorb the blast.

How is an invisible cloud of particles supposed to travel around and still be able to stop the weapons of a capital ship? The power levels needed to stave off the full brunt of an attack like that is incredible. When I noticed the flaw and mentioned it to Whyatica, you responded with this message:

you hit with mutible strikes yes, but all on one side. and not ALL the particles rush into the spot, just particles close to the blast. the rest stay where they are to protect from other sides. Have you ever seen a huge battle on Star Trek where the Enterprise is against like 3 ships, and taking hits from all sides.

That means your particle concentration is even less that before. So your initial statement says the particles rush to the attack point to stop the energy weapons. Then you say not all of them do. It honestly sounds like you are attempting to backpedal there to do some C.Y.A.

When confronted by Aralonia you responded:

very true, but i explained how it works, if i just said, well my shields nvr die they have this cool recharge thing yeah, that would be god modding and retarded. But i told you every detail of how my shields work.

The thing you never explained was how you could engineer a particle that converts Petajoules of offensive energy 100% into your shield generators. You said it completely stopped the attack so it would be a 100% conversion rate. A PetaJoule is roughly equivalent to one Megaton explosion. His weapons are considerably more powerful than that. Probably near the 500 mark per second. The man-made section of the periodic table has elements that only exist in colliders for a very, very short time, rated with lifetimes considerably less than a second. How can you engineer a particle that does that energy conversion in the vast quantity needed for the described operation of your shield.

The energy is then absorbed and recharges the shield generator keeping up an infinate cycle.

Anything that powers infinitely is considered a godmod by the NS Community. I don't need to elaborate.

Oh, one more thing to consider…

you know i get into the same argument all the time

Shouldn’t that tell you something is wrong?

maybe you should read teh stickies mate. and maybe read my post, i didnt ignore your attack at all. I acknowlaged you attaked me, and i even acknowlaged the force of the colision. But because i found away to protect myself from Energy weapons, im godmodding, "cough noob cough"

IGNORED.

Consider yourself ignored, buddy. I don't acknowledge you exist anymore, and my ships no longer see you there. You never existed. You don't exist now. You never shot at me. Congratulations.

How is an invisible cloud of particles supposed to travel around and still be able to stop the weapons of a capital ship? The power levels needed to stave off the full brunt of an attack like that is incredible. 1 while attack from a capital ship yes, this ship isnt just some frigate its a huge Carrior ship. Not much smaller than a Capital ship and just as powerful.
2. heres how the partical part of the shields work. The particals surround the ship in a dense cloud. WHen attacked, the particles nearest the attack are attracted to the Energy. They energy is absorbed by distributing it among the particles.



The thing you never explained was how you could engineer a particle that converts Petajoules of offensive energy 100% into your shield generators. You said it completely stopped the attack so it would be a 100% conversion rate. A PetaJoule is roughly equivalent to one Megaton explosion. His weapons are considerably more powerful than that. Probably near the 500 mark per second. The man-made section of the periodic table has elements that only exist in colliders for a very, very short time, rated with lifetimes considerably less than a second. How can you engineer a particle that does that energy conversion in the vast quantity needed for the described operation of your shield.

The partical i use i really dont plan on telling you the name, cause its my tech im not gonna share that intimate stuff with you. but the compound i used i created in my own imagination. The element converts energy into another form. The form that it converts it too, is what powers my shield generator. As the beam spreads between the particals, it converts it to energy, thats how even a Capital ship wont wipe out my shields, because it spreads it evenly through out the particles of the shield.



Anything that powers infinitely is considered a godmod by the NS Community. I don't need to elaborate.

Its only an infinate cycle, if you use energy weapons. Use projectiles, and it has no power to absorbe and then will weacon as normal.

IGNORED.

Consider yourself ignored, buddy. I don't acknowledge you exist anymore, and my ships no longer see you there. You never existed. You don't exist now. You never shot at me. Congratulations.


awwwwww because i didnt do what you want. You need to learn to RP mate. Because someones technology can thwart yours, you instintaly call god mod, Cause no. Theres no WAY someone can thwart me. Im fucking Whyatica. There are people more powerful and creative than you, if you cant accept that your gonna be ignoring alot of people. personally Lyon should just like, fucking quit this RP. Hes under no oblication to Rp withyou, and since youve already in your mind how this is gonna come out. ANything that threatens that outcome your gonna bitch until you win just so people will get you to shut up. But dont worry. Your not the only one like that. Theres plenty others out there who have the same Tendencys

awwwwww because i didnt do what you want. You need to learn to RP mate. Because someones technology can thwart yours, you instintaly call god mod, Cause no. Theres no WAY someone can thwart me. Im fucking . There are people more powerful and creative than you, if you cant accept that your gonna be ignoring alot of people. personally Lyon should just like, fucking quit this RP. Hes under no oblication to Rp withyou, and since youve already in your mind how this is gonna come out. ANything that threatens that outcome your gonna bitch until you win just so people will get you to shut up. But dont worry. Your not the only one like that. Theres plenty others out there who have the same Tendencys

I will i refuse to RP with until he agknowlages that TOS has shields immune to energy weapons.

Well, as a neutral bystander, I side with Whyatica. Having anything that's completely invulnerable to anything is just plain stupid. Resistant, sure, but completely unstoppable, especially by the most common form of weapons on Nationstates? Godmoding.

well then is MM godmodding when he has tech that is immune to ion cannons?
This actually isn't really very hard. Without any electronics, ion cannons do squat...

Tarsonis stop flaming it's immature, and can you at least take some damage? Like a tiny bit? Plz?

@The sons of tarsonis: An easy way to solve this would be for you to provide documented R. & D. for such a shield. Of course, you could have probably avoided this mess by not using words that are absolutes.

@Otagia: If the ship has no electronics, then its just a lump of metal that does nothing and can't be controlled. I mean, how else how you supposed to do it, fly-by-wire?

@Whyatica: Dude, T.S.O.T. isn't the only one out there with shields that work great against energy weapons but are worthless against projectiles (SW ray shields are a primitive example (which is why SW tech has particle shields for non-energy weapons (non-plasma weapons technically, but meh))).

Look ive said it a dozen times, My shields arent INpervious to everything. They have an awsome defense against Energyweapons. Projectiles rip my shields. See other people i RP with, while yeah they challenged it once i explained they didnt keep ranting and then ignore me. They created weapons to defeat me. My Friend Zaft. Though hes an ally he can potenially rape me. He developed the ultimate projectile ship. With like 300 Missle silos. 400 rail guns. IM just like....well shit there goes my fleet.

and Otagia, because its the most common form of weapon on NS is precisely why i developed it that way. So id have an advantage over most nations. IM supposed to make myself weaker just because people use the weapon that i protected myself against. Fat chance dude.

@The sons of tarsonis: An easy way to solve this would be for you to provide documented R. & D. for such a shield. Of course, you could have probably avoided this mess by not using words that are absolutes.

@Otagia: If the ship has no electronics, then its just a lump of metal that does nothing and can't be controlled. I mean, how else how you supposed to do it, fly-by-wire?

@Whyatica: Dude, T.S.O.T. isn't the only one out there with shields that work great against energy weapons but are worthless against projectiles (SW ray shields are a primitive example (which is why SW tech has particle shields for non-energy weapons (non-plasma weapons technically, but meh))).

Shields built specifically against energy weapons still aren't impervious to energy weapons. I have no problems with people building shields that are strengthened against energy weapons, but not taking damage at all is godmoding. Look at Balrogga. His shields were pretty much impervious to my gravitic weaponry, but it made his ship blind, deaf, and unable to fire. I'd say that was a freaking downside. His ship was immune to fire, certainly, but I'll take that over doing no physical damage any day.

@Otagia: If the ship has no electronics, then its just a lump of metal that does nothing and can't be controlled. I mean, how else how you supposed to do it, fly-by-wire?
Fly-by-light/optronics, actually. Fly-by-wire uses electrical impulses, optronics replace the electricity with light. Already in use in some RL designs, and completely EMP proof. Fun stuff, that.


and Otagia, because its the most common form of weapon on NS is precisely why i developed it that way. So id have an advantage over most nations. IM supposed to make myself weaker just because people use the weapon that i protected myself against. Fat chance dude.
So you make yourself purposefully invulnerable to the larger portion of the NationStates community? How droll. You MUST explain how this isn't godmoding some time.

Shields built specifically against energy weapons still aren't impervious to energy weapons. I have no problems with people building shields that are strengthened against energy weapons, but not taking damage at all is godmoding. Look at Balrogga. His shields were pretty much impervious to my gravitic weaponry, but it made his ship blind, deaf, and unable to fire. I'd say that was a freaking downside. His ship was immune to fire, certainly, but I'll take that over doing no physical damage any day.

T.S.O.T. did go into wank (not GM) territory due to his use of absolute discriptors.

Now, I'm sure we can work out a compromise here that suits all parties so everyone can stop this dick waving contest and get back to RPing.

@T.S.O.T.: Would you be willing to edit your post to remove the absolute terms? Would you also be willing to have the weapons damage the shields?

Fly-by-light/optronics, actually. Fly-by-wire uses electrical impulses, optronics replace the electricity with light. Already in use in some RL designs, and completely EMP proof. Fun stuff, that.
*Snip*

Not only is that incorrect, but its just plain wrong.

A fly-by-wire system in a modern aircraft, for example, means that when the wheel is turned, gears, wires, pulleys, and other mechanical equipment move the rudder and other flight control surfaces.

Now, unless a spaceship was in atmo, that just wouldn't work.

And you also forgot that optical systems use lasers. Thus, an electrical system is needed to operate it still.

And until you can make a ship out of a non-conductive material (biologics and metal are very conductive to the travel of electricity), then SW style Ion weapons would still cause some effect. It may be a limited disabling of a section of the ship or just causing damage (like every other real ion based weapon from every other universe).

Shields built specifically against energy weapons still aren't impervious to energy weapons. I have no problems with people building shields that are strengthened against energy weapons, but not taking damage at all is godmoding. Look at Balrogga. His shields were pretty much impervious to my gravitic weaponry, but it made his ship blind, deaf, and unable to fire. I'd say that was a freaking downside. His ship was immune to fire, certainly, but I'll take that over doing no physical damage any day.

look man the schematics are there. How hard is it to switch to Projectile weapons. Blast the crap out my shields with projectiles, and then once my shields are down, theres no shield to absorb anything, so my ship is fair game to energy weapons. The only flaw in my shield is that if the shield is already down it can't be recharged. If its les than 15% the shield starts lleaking. The particles are in so much dissaray fire starts leaking through. once shields down to below 5% recharge is no longer an option.

T.S.O.T. did go into wank (not GM) territory due to his use of absolute discriptors.

Now, I'm sure we can work out a compromise here that suits all parties so everyone can stop this dick waving contest and get back to RPing.

@T.S.O.T.: Would you be willing to edit your post to remove the absolute terms? Would you also be willing to have the weapons damage the shields?

question is what do you mean by absolute terms?

oh and um dude not to be a prick. but i go by Uii rules. Theres no such thing is tech wanking. If you can prove it you can have it. I proved it by describing how the shield works. Whats his face put me off and i had to go back and get my head strait and restate with ALL the details of how the shield works. Its just like in real life. America is a hell of alot better equiped than the taliban. They just have like rocks and crap and we got stealth bombers and stuff galore. But wait were supposed to tone down our tech to give them a chance? Sorry but know, were gonna beath the crap out those son of a guns. IM not obligated to tone down my tech just to give you a chance. A good RPer and fighter, recognizes adversity and finds ways to over come. not just get a comittee together to talk about how thats unfair. I mean jeez it reminds me of the French government.

Fly-by-wire

Mechanical and hydraulic flight control systems are heavy and require careful routing of flight control cables through the airplane using systems of pulley and cranks. Both systems often require redundant backup, which further increases weight. Furthermore, both have limited ability to compensate for changing aerodynamic conditions.

By using computers and electrical linkages, designers can save weight and improve reliability. Electronic fly-by-wire systems can respond more flexibly to changing aerodynamic conditions, by tailoring flight control surface movements so that airplane response to control inputs is consistent for all flight conditions. Electronic systems require less maintenance, whereas mechanical and hydraulic system require lubrication, tension adjustments, leak checks, fluid changes, etc. Furthermore putting circuitry between pilot and aircraft can enhance safety; for example the control system can prevent a stall, or can stop the pilot from overstressing the airframe.

A fly-by-wire system literally replaces physical control of the aircraft with an electrical interface. The pilot's commands are converted to electronic signals, and flight control computers determine how best to move the actuators at each control surface to provide the desired response. Those actuators initially are usually hydraulic, but electric actuators have been investigated.

The main concern with fly-by-wire systems is reliability. While traditional mechanical or hydraulic control systems usually fail gradually, the loss of all flight control computers will immediately render the airplane uncontrollable. For this reason, most fly-by-wire systems incorporated redundant computers and some kind of mechanical or hydraulic backup. This may seem to negate some advantages of fly-by-wire, but the redundant systems can be simpler, lighter, and offer only limited capability since they are for emergency use only.

And you also forgot that optical systems use lasers. Thus, an electrical system is needed to operate it still.Or you could get raw light from power generation, which is quite possible, especially with antimatter reactions, or even harvesting it from solar sources.

Another option would be to go the 40K method and have everything done by hand, with speaker tubes running throughout the vessel. Crude, but it can be effective.

And until you can make a ship out of a non-conductive material (biologics and metal are very conductive to the travel of electricity), then SW style Ion weapons would still cause some effect. It may be a limited disabling of a section of the ship or just causing damage (like every other real ion based weapon from every other universe).True. Perhaps I should have phrased that differently. Largely ineffective would have been more appropriate, especially given canon SW ion cannons' complete lack of effect on hulls.

question is what do you mean by absolute terms?
Absolute means no room for error.

Examples are absolute, invincible, immune (applies sometimes however), untouchable (though that applies in some cases), undefeatable, unstoppable (also applies in a few select situations), et cetera.

Need I go on?

Its all a matter of wording. Though, do note, IC use of the words as IC boasting is allowed. IC'ly, we are all allowed to embelish.

oh and um dude not to be a prick. but i go by Uii rules. Theres no such thing is tech wanking. If you can prove it you can have it. I proved it by describing how the shield works. Whats his face put me off and i had to go back and get my head strait and restate with ALL the details of how the shield works. Its just like in real life. America is a hell of alot better equiped than the taliban. They just have like rocks and crap and we got stealth bombers and stuff galore. But wait were supposed to tone down our tech to give them a chance? Sorry but know, were gonna beath the crap out those son of a guns. IM not obligated to tone down my tech just to give you a chance. A good RPer and fighter, recognizes adversity and finds ways to over come. not just get a comittee together to talk about how thats unfair. I mean jeez it reminds me of the French government.
Let's play spot the American...

Anyway, let's get down to business.

#1: NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is absolutely 100% effective. Shoot at an Abrahms with an AK for long enough and it'll be wrecked. Might take a while, but it WILL work.

#2: There is no free lunch. Physics dictates that you cannot have a perpetual motion machine, which is what your shields are described as. This especially applies to the fact that your "particles" move around, which takes yet more energy, in addition to that required to stop the blast in the first place, which should just smash the things against your hull and deal damage that way.

Let's play spot the American...

Anyway, let's get down to business.

#1: NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is absolutely 100% effective. Shoot at an Abrahms with an AK for long enough and it'll be wrecked. Might take a while, but it WILL work.

#2: There is no free lunch. Physics dictates that you cannot have a perpetual motion machine, which is what your shields are described as. This especially applies to the fact that your "particles" move around, which takes yet more energy, in addition to that required to stop the blast in the first place, which should just smash the things against your hull and deal damage that way.


Playing the physics card huh.
Okay ill play this one. THis is FT Future Tech. In other words. We have no idea what technology the future holds. And technically by The Laws of Quantum Phyics, hyperspace travel is Impossible. So is FTL, boy doesnt that blow a hole in everyones technology. See physics are wonderful laws. But in a the FT world, where ships go faster than light, and we have hyperdrives, and lasers, and beam swords. They get disprovin. This is how Uii rpers work. If you can come up with a Feasable way of making something work. Where u read what they say, and go well yeah that could work... Granted there are going to be problems. But ive explained a pheasable way of how this works. And yeah shoot at something long enough itll blow up. However the tank will kill the riflemen, long before the riflemen kills the tank.

Let's play spot the American...

Anyway, let's get down to business.

#1: NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is absolutely 100% effective. Shoot at an Abrahms with an AK for long enough and it'll be wrecked. Might take a while, but it WILL work.

All I've got to say is this: Have you ever seen an AK that could carry enough ammo, let enough have a high enough calibur(sp?), to damage a modern day tank's armor?

#2: There is no free lunch. Physics dictates that you cannot have a perpetual motion machine, which is what your shields are described as. This especially applies to the fact that your "particles" move around, which takes yet more energy, in addition to that required to stop the blast in the first place, which should just smash the things against your hull and deal damage that way.

Welcome to FT. RL physics, excluding the true basics, are pretty much generally thrown out the window.

Otherwise, things like artificial gravity, singularity power cores, M/AM technology, FTL, and every other item FTers take for granted wouldn't exist.

Playing the physics card huh.
Okay ill play this one. THis is FT Future Tech. In other words. We have no idea what technology the future holds. And technically by The Laws of Quantum Phyics, hyperspace travel is Impossible. So is FTL, boy doesnt that blow a hole in everyones technology. See physics are wonderful laws. But in a the FT world, where ships go faster than light, and we have hyperdrives, and lasers, and beam swords. They get disprovin. This is how Uii rpers work. If you can come up with a Feasable way of making something work. Where u read what they say, and go well yeah that could work... Granted there are going to be problems. But ive explained a pheasable way of how this works. And yeah shoot at something long enough itll blow up. However the tank will kill the riflemen, long before the riflemen kills the tank.

Please, T.S.O.S., let me make this one request. Don't react to them like that. You are only giving them what they want. Just ignore them for now and get back to RPing. A'right?

and another flaw in my shields which i put into the IC thread. My shields protect against the energy of the attack. But not the force of the impact. My ships gett rattled.

Playing the physics card huh.
Okay ill play this one. THis is FT Future Tech. In other words. We have no idea what technology the future holds. And technically by The Laws of Quantum Phyics, hyperspace travel is Impossible. So is FTL, boy doesnt that blow a hole in everyones technology. See physics are wonderful laws. But in a the FT world, where ships go faster than light, and we have hyperdrives, and lasers, and beam swords. They get disprovin. This is how Uii rpers work. If you can come up with a Feasable way of making something work. Where u read what they say, and go well yeah that could work... Granted there are going to be problems. But ive explained a pheasable way of how this works. And yeah shoot at something long enough itll blow up. However the tank will kill the riflemen, long before the riflemen kills the tank.

This isn't a UII rp, buddy, and techwanking does exist. And there are still some fundamental laws of physics that aren't broken - Conservation of energy, for one. Saying 'ITS FT LOLZ' doesn't cut it in the case of breaking things like that. Even me. My ships abide by Conservation of Energy, at the very least.

Please, T.S.O.S., let me make this one request. Don't react to them like that. You are only giving them what they want. Just ignore them for now and get back to RPing. A'right?


yeah ure right. Just when people dont like something. So they try so hard to find one small problem with it, man that ticks me off. I mean this dude im rping with now. HIs engines cause everything around them To vibrate on like INTENSE levels. And unless you have gravity technology, your gonna get ripped to shreads. He ripped apart one of my fighter forces with that thing, it was like......DAMN. but did i complain, well a little, but i learned,....just stay a good distance, and the things dont affect you. i saw adversity and i overcame. This is the same case. Find away to overcome. Energy weapons get converted to fuel for my shields, so in a sense my shields are immune to energy weapons. But load up a crapload of railguns, and missle batteries....and my shields will get ripped to pieces like anyone elses shields.

This isn't a UII rp, buddy, and techwanking does exist. And there are still some fundamental laws of physics that aren't broken - Conservation of energy, for one. Saying 'ITS FT LOLZ' doesn't cut it in the case of breaking things like that. Even me. My ships abide by Conservation of Energy, at the very least.


Im using the Law of Conservation of energy. Its actually the fundemental system to my Shields. Energy cant be created or destroyed its simply converted to a diferent form. Thats whats happening here. Energy is being converted to a form that actually fuels my shield creating an infinate cycle.

It's a perpetual motion machine, which also violates the laws of physics. Your shields are refueled infinitely. Big physics no-no.

see this is the problem with alot of Rpers i find. Because we come up with technology so good that it puts you at a severe disadvantage, you just get to call Tech Wanking and boom were screwed. Let me put it to you in a different light.

a PMT thread with muskets and slow repeating rifles, so civil war era. well one guy develops the gatling gun. fires huge amount of rounds, fast firing time, can mow people down. only problem is that its not very mobile. but oo since they all march in strait lines, theyre getting mowed down, and we cant get close enough to defeat it. TECH WANKING.

Now i admit you cant just jump through technology. (unless of course someone gives it to you) but developing technology you cant go from bows and arrows to say...a minigun.....that just doesnt work. cant go from a trireme, to.....a nuclear powered aircraft carriar. just doesnt work.

all my tech took along time to develop. im just further along then u in the tech stage.

It's a perpetual motion machine, which also violates the laws of physics. Your shields are refueled infinitely. Big physics no-no.

Uh, you have a big black hole powering your ships. According to physics you should be sucked up into the singularity. Just cut the guy some slack. He is, like you, bending RL physics to get a good story. And a good story is what really matters here, not if you have some uber ignores all shields weapon or not.

It's a perpetual motion machine, which also violates the laws of physics. Your shields are refueled infinitely. Big physics no-no.

WRong reason why perpetual motion doesnt work is cause without a fresh source of energy, it will eventually disipate its momentum and stop.

Every laser blast is a fresh source of energy to my cycle. So its like ure kicking the motion machine every time it starts to slow.

purpetual motion is one object sustaining its movement, so like a ball being able to roll forever on its own. It cant, it needs something to throw it. My shields cant run forever, but by hiting it with an energy weapon your giving it more power.

WRong reason why perpetual motion doesnt work is cause without a fresh source of energy, it will eventually disipate its momentum and stop.

... Can I get a buzzer sound in here? Actually the reason perpetual motion doesn't work is because outside forces work against it. An object in motion will stay in motion until an outside force works against it. You start a ball rolling, technically it could roll forever. No more energy needed. However, we live in a world with Friction, the outside force that stops the ball from rolling. Sorry to mess up your "rules of physics"-- (and I mean all your rules, not justs SOT's).

Since this is a world of future technology etc, etc... the rules of physics can't be applied all the time. Otherwise whatshisname would've been sucked into his blackhole powered ship (very creative BTW, steal that from the ZPMs of stargate?), none of you would be able to get out of the galaxy (thank you star trek/star wars) etc etc.

New technology is "created" all the time. Stephen King wrote a book where people traveled through anti-dimensions as a teleportation device. You really think a shield can't be created, that has a stronger potential energy than the kinetic energy of a beam? Tell me, if you throw a ball at a wall, doesn't it bounce? The same principle can be applied to energy waves. Be glad he doesn't bounce your energy back at you. Star Trek shields work the same way his does... absorbing energy through the particles that surround the ship. The fact that he expanded on the technology to repower itself just makes me think of a solar paneled car... or the car battery of a car, that Recharges as the car runs.

@The Brood of Darkness: Actually, as Whyatica is a Minbari nation, its a canon Babylon 5 tech known as the Quantum/Gravitic Reactor. I could go into some technobabble about it, but its just another quantum singularity core.

Though, point-of-fact, ST shields don't work like that. If need be, I can pull out the technobabble that says how ST shields work.

Hope nobody minds if I throw in my 0.02 credits worth.

First, immune=bad. Highly resistant is fine, but complete immunity is a concept you have to be very careful with. Of course there's no need to lower your technology to match your enemies, but simply declaring an entire very basic form of technology useless against you, no matter how powerful, advanced, or numerous it may be, isn't reasonable.

From your description of your shielding, I see a few possible weaknesses. First, you say the particles gather to meet and absorb incoming fire. This should leave thin spots, or even holes, where they came from. Second, the rate of conversion is clearly not infinite, or they would not need to gather. Enough sheer power should overwhelm the shield's capacity to deal with the energy.

You need to take both of these factors into account. Also, how would it handle a matter annihilation weapon? You never did explain how these particles function.

On the other hand...
"My shields protect against the energy of the attack. But not the force of the impact. My ships gett rattled."
That's better, especially if it has the potential to damage them. That makes it a strong defense against energy weapons, but not a perfect one.

Whyatica, it isn't a perpetual motion machine. It takes in energy every time it's used.

"Tell me, if you throw a ball at a wall, doesn't it bounce?"
Depends on how hard you throw it, what it's made out of, and the strength of the wall.

Hope nobody minds if I throw in my 0.02 credits worth.

First, immune=bad. Highly resistant is fine, but complete immunity is a concept you have to be very careful with. Of course there's no need to lower your technology to match your enemies, but simply declaring an entire very basic form of technology useless against you, no matter how powerful, advanced, or numerous it may be, isn't reasonable.

From your description of your shielding, I see a few possible weaknesses. First, you say the particles gather to meet and absorb incoming fire. This should leave thin spots, or even holes, where they came from. Second, the rate of conversion is clearly not infinite, or they would not need to gather. Enough sheer power should overwhelm the shield's capacity to deal with the energy.

You need to take both of these factors into account. Also, how would it handle a matter annihilation weapon? You never did explain how these particles function.

On the other hand...
"My shields protect against the energy of the attack. But not the force of the impact. My ships gett rattled."
That's better, especially if it has the potential to damage them. That makes it a strong defense against energy weapons, but not a perfect one.

Whyatica, it isn't a perpetual motion machine. It takes in energy every time it's used.

"Tell me, if you throw a ball at a wall, doesn't it bounce?"
Depends on how hard you throw it, what it's made out of, and the strength of the wall.

Man i forgot my modulator, (ive posted it in another thread so im not just making it up.) it moniters the intake of energy. If the energy is going to overload the reactor, it changes the flow of energy instead of to the shield generator, it goes into space. The same tech was used in Stargate SG1 Naquedah Generator, if the reactor was gonna overload it would launch the excess into the Atmosphere, same concept here. However my modulator only reduces the likelyness of the overload. Even it has limits.

Hope nobody minds if I throw in my 0.02 credits worth.

First, immune=bad. Highly resistant is fine, but complete immunity is a concept you have to be very careful with. Of course there's no need to lower your technology to match your enemies, but simply declaring an entire very basic form of technology useless against you, no matter how powerful, advanced, or numerous it may be, isn't reasonable.

Good. Two people saying the same thing means twice the power.

From your description of your shielding, I see a few possible weaknesses. First, you say the particles gather to meet and absorb incoming fire. This should leave thin spots, or even holes, where they came from. Second, the rate of conversion is clearly not infinite, or they would not need to gather. Enough sheer power should overwhelm the shield's capacity to deal with the energy.

Very good points.

You need to take both of these factors into account. Also, how would it handle a matter annihilation weapon? You never did explain how these particles function.

First off, aren't 99% of M/AM weapons projectile in nature?

Secondly, why should we care how they function? Its not part of the RP in question that we need to know.

On the other hand...
"My shields protect against the energy of the attack. But not the force of the impact. My ships gett rattled."
That's better, especially if it has the potential to damage them. That makes it a strong defense against energy weapons, but not a perfect one.

Agreed.

Whyatica, it isn't a perpetual motion machine. It takes in energy every time it's used.

Can't argue with that.

"Tell me, if you throw a ball at a wall, doesn't it bounce?"
Depends on how hard you throw it, what it's made out of, and the strength of the wall.

IMHO, TBH, that sounds like a metaphoric reference to Newton's Third Law: "Every action requires and equal but opposite reaction."

So, thus, it will bounce.

Bah an entire RP down the drain because you refuse to get a tinge of damage.

(snorts)

By your description of your shield, I can literally tear you apart. Gauss weapons(40k) work by literally disassociating your atoms. Since the particles would be reduced to a more simple, subatomic, form, they would no longer be an effective defense. Meaning the rest of my weapons would simply waltz through your shields. And then there are the wonderful 40k weapons that alternatively ignore Shields or ignore Armor. You REALLY don't want that, do you?

Now, I believe I've made my point. Your wanking is more excessive than that of any other single nation. NO ONE claims invulnerablw defenses, even the much maligned MM has several very critical weaknesses, which are obvious toi
anyone with an IQ. Those weaknesses are not glossed over, nor are they ignored when used. When someone gets behind him, or in front of him, he takes losses. When they get into range of his sidewalls, he takes damage. YOU, on the other hand, claim that your shields cannot be defeated because they are uber shields that cannot take damage from any energy weapon. Here's a hypothetical situation to test that.

Youi are surrounded by ships, all firing energy weapons that would give the wankiest warsie wanker nightmares(for example, a Minbari Sharlin). Any ship from any other nation would simply be destroyed. YOU however have decided that he cannot touch you because you are IMMUNE to energy weapons. Not just highly resistant like MM, but IMMUNE.

Bah an entire RP down the drain because you refuse to get a tinge of damage.

(snorts)

T.S.O.T. may have the tech wrong, but an ST style shield does have to be taken out before damage to the ship can begin.

T.S.O.T. may have the tech wrong, but an ST style shield does have to be taken out before damage to the ship can begin.

Except he's wanked his shields into invulnerability. I can't believe you're defending this guy at all. I thought you had SOME class.

By your description of your shield, I can literally tear you apart. Gauss weapons(40k) work by literally disassociating your atoms. Since the particles would be reduced to a more simple, subatomic, form, they would no longer be an effective defense. Meaning the rest of my weapons would simply waltz through your shields. And then there are the wonderful 40k weapons that alternatively ignore Shields or ignore Armor. You REALLY don't want that, do you?

Now, I believe I've made my point. Your wanking is more excessive than that of any other single nation. NO ONE claims invulnerablw defenses, even the much maligned MM has several very critical weaknesses, which are obvious toi
anyone with an IQ. Those weaknesses are not glossed over, nor are they ignored when used. When someone gets behind him, or in front of him, he takes losses. When they get into range of his sidewalls, he takes damage. YOU, on the other hand, claim that your shields cannot be defeated because they are uber shields that cannot take damage from any energy weapon. Here's a hypothetical situation to test that.

Youi are surrounded by ships, all firing energy weapons that would give the wankiest warsie wanker nightmares(for example, a Minbari Sharlin). Any ship from any other nation would simply be destroyed. YOU however have decided that he cannot touch you because you are IMMUNE to energy weapons. Not just highly resistant like MM, but IMMUNE.

Uh, some right and some wrong.

I point you to the little fight between three pirate Sharlin's and some ST MU based ships in Jarvon's intro thread.

While it's true many ships did get sliced (as the nickname for the main guns of a Sharlin is 'slicer') into bits, the Gecko (ie, command ship for the system at the time) took heavy damage, but wasn't sliced apart or destroyed.

As Jarvon uses ST tech, that means he uses ST sheilds, which adapted to Whyatica's shots over time. Still, the first few bolts broke through and hit armor causing some major damage to the armor and some to the underlying hull, but not enough that it couldn't be repaired given enough time.

As for MM, I point you to the bit between MM and SQ in Huntaer's last IC incarnation of his Civil War. SQ jumped some ships from in front of to behind MM's forces, yet MM claimed that no damage was being dealt to his ships. Some crap about suddenly having them staggared and traveling foward while the ship's axis was rotated diagonally.

Except he's wanked his shields into invulnerability. I can't believe you're defending this guy at all. I thought you had SOME class.

No, I'm trying to help him.

What I'm trying to defend him from is people OOC dogpiling him. He's admitted his shields have weakness. And I agree he shouldn't have used absolute descriptors, but that doesn't give everyone the right to jump on him and call him a GMer. What should have happened is everyone remaining calm and actually work through things with him so he learns how to RP better.

Uh, some right and some wrong.

I point you to the little fight between three pirate Sharlin's and some ST MU based ships in Jarvon's intro thread.

While it's true many ships did get sliced (as the nickname for the main guns of a Sharlin is 'slicer') into bits, the Gecko (ie, command ship for the system at the time) took heavy damage, but wasn't sliced apart or destroyed.

As Jarvon uses ST tech, that means he uses ST sheilds, which adapted to Whyatica's shots over time. Still, the first few bolts broke through and hit armor causing some major damage to the armor and some to the underlying hull, but not enough that it couldn't be repaired given enough time.

As for MM, I point you to the bit between MM and SQ in Huntaer's last IC incarnation of his Civil War. SQ jumped some ships from in front of to behind MM's forces, yet MM claimed that no damage was being dealt to his ships. Some crap about suddenly having them staggared and traveling foward while the ship's axis was rotated diagonally.

Ah yes, Jarvons OMGBORGENHANCEDSHIELDS!!! That is certainly not standard ST fare, nor should it be considered as the basis for anything. It is simply a case of mixing and matching technology.

Why do you speak of yourself in the third person?

You disagree only on my statements concerning the Sharlins, that is wise. There is no arguing the facts of Necron weaponry, as laid out by games workshop, nor the resilience of their vessels. No Trekkie would be reasonably expected to stand up to weaponry that makes much larger and more powerful ships die in just a few hits(strike from a Scythe noted as destroying an IoM Destroyer in one hit, during the Gothic War, incident with squadron Farsight, reference: BFG rules for Necrons). Whether he truly uses Trek, or something similar, or even a bastardized version of SC, he hasn't got much to stand on when there are facts trhat can be unquestionably stated from source material published by the creator of the vessels in question.

Ah yes, Jarvons OMGBORGENHANCEDSHIELDS!!! That is certainly not standard ST fare, nor should it be considered as the basis for anything. It is simply a case of mixing and matching technology.

Why do you speak of yourself in the third person?

You disagree only on my statements concerning the Sharlins, that is wise. There is no arguing the facts of Necron weaponry, as laid out by games workshop, nor the resilience of their vessels. No Trekkie would be reasonably expected to stand up to weaponry that makes much larger and more powerful ships die in just a few hits(strike from a Scythe noted as destroying an IoM Destroyer in one hit, during the Gothic War, incident with squadron Farsight, reference: BFG rules for Necrons). Whether he truly uses Trek, or something similar, or even a bastardized version of SC, he hasn't got much to stand on when there are facts trhat can be unquestionably stated from source material published by the creator of the vessels in question.

Technically, Jarvon's shields are fully in the realm of plausable ST tech. 27th century extrapolations of regenerative and adaptable Borg shields combined with all the other canon shields (remodulating, metaphasic, et cetera).

As for why I refer to one of my other nations by its names when I'm not logged in as that nation should be obvious. Its not the logged in nation I'm refering to, but another.

And I'm not debating the Necron's firepower. Its not my area of expertise. The ST universe is. So I'll leave you to your stuff about the Necrons if you leave me to mine. A'right?

Now, as T.S.O.T. claims to use ST type shields, I'm willing to give him the tech info on how the canon ones work.

As for the rest of you shooting at him, remember that energy weapons take longer than normal (due to having to take out the shields before being able to damage the hull (though technically that's done by 'damaging' the shield grid)).

Wow, what are all these people doing ruining the RP in petty argument? MAny of whom don't have anything to do with the RP? Plot thickens...

Wow, what are all these people doing ruining the RP in petty argument? MAny of whom don't have anything to do with the RP? Plot thickens...

Welcome to NationStates ;)

Yup welcome to a future of insecurity, enormous egos, fanboys galore and the intruding eyes of the uninvited :D

(clears throat)

ALL OF YOU KILLED A GREAT POTENTIAL RP AGGGH! I HATE ALL OF YOU! TARSONIS ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS TAKE A LITTLE DAMAGE, WHYATICA I KNOW YOU HAD MISSILES. LYON.... I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH YOU. I'M JUST PISSED IS ALL!

Now the Cuotl has a bad impression of us and might never RP again, I hope you're all f***ing happy.

I HATE YOU! (sobs)

Such is my trauma that I will NEVER RP AGAIN! WITH ANYONE! ESPECIALLY NOT TCG! OR SEAQUEST! YOU HAVE RUINED MY FIRST MARVELLOUS FORAY INTO RP AND I....*SOBS INSANELY*

Apologies, Cuotl.

Its ok, I'll get over it

Yup welcome to a future of insecurity, enormous egos, fanboys galore and the intruding eyes of the uninvited :D

They say opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. While that holds true in reality, on NS it is a bit different. On NS, opinions are like orifices. Every single person has more of them than a bad anime.

Such is my trauma that I will NEVER RP AGAIN! WITH ANYONE! ESPECIALLY NOT TCG! OR SEAQUEST! YOU HAVE RUINED MY FIRST MARVELLOUS FORAY INTO RP AND I....*SOBS INSANELY*

Wheh!? I was on your side, dude. Unlike the others going "this way or the high-way", however, I was working with T.S.O.T. to accomplish a compromise where his shields would absorb the damage instead of his hull.

IIRC, I do believe he mentioned damage to his shields in a subsequient(sp?) post.

Opinions are like pores!

And sorry, but hating you was just where it seemed to be going, maybe its because your so outspoken...Anywhoos, I'm sure it'll all work itself out somehow, whats important is.....

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

Much better.

Opinions are like pores!

And sorry, but hating you was just where it seemed to be going, maybe its because your so outspoken...Anywhoos, I'm sure it'll all work itself out somehow, whats important is.....

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

Much better.


Roffle-sauce.

You seem to be a Star Trek fan. Am I right in assuming that?

If you think it would be interesting, I could use my Jarvon account to have Kahn/Khan (I'm too busy right now to look up which is the correct spelling) show up in his I.S.S. Reliant in your IC thread. A'right?

TSOS: My shields absorb damage, but they just recharge the damage. THe shields can potentually overload, but i have an influx moderator, that moniters levels best it can. But even it has limits.

Nah, not in the least. I just do that for stress relief.

Nah, not in the least. I just do that for stress relief.
So, the whole Kirk quote from ST II was the stress release. Ahh.

Or was it a no to having Kahn/Khan showing up in the I.S.S. Reliant?

Definite No-no. Honestly, have you no respect for canon?

Definite No-no. Honestly, have you no respect for canon?

Jarvon is MU based, so canon does not truely apply in this case.

I already had him and the ship sitting in Limbo, so I thought it would be fun, or interesting at the very least, to finally get around to RPing with him.

Pfft; JArvon is MU so you can make up whateva the hell you want, in other words?

Pardons, Cuotl, but if I might intrude...

SQ; when are you going to post where you're needed? :P

@The Cuotl: I stick to the stuff defined in canon. So nothing is way out there and its all ST tech. Of course, Jarvon's set in the MU in the 27th century, so the canon 24th century Alliance controlled MU is a thing of the past.
@Chronosia: In the Jarvon thread? A'right, I'll be there as soon as I can, but I'll use this account as I don't want to log-in just for a couple posts when I'm using this one for most things right now.

Not involved, totally neutral, yeah so whatever.

Can't have totally invincible shields, to anything unless it comes at an extreme cost. Someone can have shields more adept to stopping an energy attack, but total immunity is bad. Doesn't matter if it is based on some obscure canon or not; invincibility is and has always been wanking when it is not used as a plot device as agreed to by all RPers.

Shields that absorb energy to power shields are ... just as dubious; you have to realize that most hits from NS FT beam weapons are strong enough to vaporize the buckaverage NS FT destroyer in one hit. Granted we all RP different; my ships are of obscene quality and durability so it takes a weebit more than that, but still you must realize that these are NS FT beam weapons, you're ability to absorb energy and power your shields is limited once the shield overloads and takes half the ship with it. Otherwise you're pretty much godmodding.

These are facts you really can't get around whether you understand physics or not; only other time it's different is when the plot calls for such devices to be utilizied for the sake of the story.

For anyone defending this stuff based on canon (SQ), being canon does not excuse the twinkiness of invincible shields. You can hide behind the dirivative works of Rodenberry if you wish, but that gains you no ground. The shields as they stand now are twinky, and an ignore on it is justifiable.

I've always been of the opinion that everything should be scaled down for NS. You can't rely on a TV show that dragged out more Deus Ex Machinas than the history of Greek theatre to keep you respected and solidly based in technology :P

@ElectronX: Once again, you didn't read my posts. I never said T.S.O.T.'s shields were backed by anything in canon. I said that the idea and principle behind them is sound and that he just has to stop using absolute descripters out of dialouge.

@ElectronX: Once again, you didn't read my posts. I never said T.S.O.T.'s shields were backed by anything in canon. I said that the idea and principle behind them is sound and that he just has to stop using absolute descripters out of dialouge.

By endorsing the idea and princible you end up implying that what TSOT is doing is permissible. Something most wouldn't notice if you didn't so feverishly defend star trek 'canon' at every opportunity.

By endorsing the idea and princible you end up implying that what TSOT is doing is permissible. Something most wouldn't notice if you didn't so feverishly defend star trek 'canon' at every opportunity.
Just because we don't all RP at hard sci-fi levels like you doesn't mean the canons we use to base our stuff on is free for you to mock and insult.

Just because we don't all RP at hard sci-fi levels like you doesn't mean the canons we use to base our stuff on is free for you to mock and insult.


Oh please, to even refer to me as hard sci-fi is probably an insult in of itself. Probably nothing about my nation and what I make it do are realistic in anyway, and why it even matters I don't know.

As I've repeated before I do not dislike treknology: I do not mock it (what the writters occasionally do I sometime mock), or belittle it needlessly; but I do recognize that in meshing it with other technologies from other canon sources, that it is not the strongest, generally far from it.

Why you've taken it so personally that I am telling someone not to wank like some lonely college kid with a trunk full of porno is beyond me, really.

Meh, care to translate that into English?

Bah! Do we need to get into this arguement again? You know I, a full-blooded Trekker, support Star Trek and have started RPing a nation using it. Lets just leave it at that. As frankly, I could care less about your opinions right now.

The point right now is to help T.S.O.T. become a better RP'er. The first step is to see if he stops using absolute descriptors outside of dialouge.

Meh, care to translate that into English?

I'm not a hard sci-fi nation, an assertion you made which is proven false by pretty much everything I have ever done?

Bah! Do we need to get into this arguement again? You know I, a full-blooded Trekker, support Star Trek and have started RPing a nation using it. Lets just leave it at that. As frankly, I could care less about your opinions right now.

The argument you never manage to win but continue to fight because of blind ignorance?

The point right now is to help T.S.O.T. become a better RP'er. The first step is to see if he stops using absolute descriptors outside of dialouge.


The first step is to not use wanky technology not needed by the plot.

*Claps, slowly*

Bravo dears, you have, in one thread, destroyed the chance for a good Role Play, good on you, Good on you! Now lets look at this shall we?

For Starters, the culprit of this, you realise of corse...this is not a UII RP, therefore, its rules do not apply. Why you think they would is beyond me...truely confusing.

Secondly, its Wank, pure and simple. Lets look at what you have said shall we? In real terms, it is:

"I have made up a piece of Technobabble which makes no real sense in physics. I have in my mind come up with a engineered partical that transferes obscene amounts of Energy, its in my head, but you can't have it, you just need to accept it."

By what I have read, it would seem, since the Deathstar is an energy weapon, you would be able to use it to power your shields, surely not though? Of corse its not wanking to force people to change their weapons. Tell me, does it block partical beams? What about Plasma? Kenetics it doesn't, what about lasers? Better yet, HOW does it transfere intense energies to states that can be reused before the guns punch through it.

Physics isn't important in face of plot, but come on! Least make SOME sense instead of "Its energy weapon so my shields are immune!"

SQDSV: Quite, now. You have NO reason to be chiding someone on tech wanking mister "He uses Plasma, Plasma is WEAKY!" despite it had, in Canon, been proven to burn planets apart.

In other news, the system you claimed you had legel claim to in the same thread, you don't, as The Alien Covenant has claims in that space. It was stated in his post, you might not let him RP, but its still HIS SPACE.

I am adivsing everyone in the thread to use that...and call you on that claim.

Love the Singing Lady

Nagg, Nagg, Nagg. Bringing up retconned events I see.

Now, I certainly do not talk like that.

Also, before we scare the new guy away, lets try to get along. A'right?

Nagg, Nagg, Nagg. Bringing up retconned events I see.

Now, I certainly do not talk like that.

Also, before we scare the new guy away, lets try to get along. A'right?


Do you ever like, answer the points brought up in a discussion or do you just duck-and-roll like this all the time? (I probably know the answer to this already)

You know...if you had actually responded to my argument, like was stated by EX, then I might have actually had a point to the post.

As it is, I am simply going to point out YOUR post was pointless, and yes, you do talk like that, chucking a tantrum cause he used plasma, AND cause he uses different FTL, everyone said you where wrong but you.

Everyone

Face it, you where wrong. You stuffed up, and you now have no intention of even aruging, cause if you argue, the chances of being publicly humiliated (Again) are raised are they not?

I thought so.

Love the Singing Lady

Yeah, lets have less of the technobabble, and less of the "dragging canon into things". How do you people ever expect to find people to RP with, if you base all of your ideas on canon or shamelessly steal scenarios?

I'm not talking about a simple basis, I'm talkign about embracing canon so much that nothing else can be right and bludgeoning people with it if they wrong you. I was to understand that NS was meant to be all.....fluid and accepty....

I have a proposal.

There are pages of arguments here that are in danger of hijacking the OOC Thread. Most of them barely fit into the theme of the RP so are questionable if they belong here. The rest are not even related and are just about other RPs.

Take the argument to the Argument Thread I created for this very purpose and leave this Thread for the RP it is designated for.

The link is in my Thread.

Yeah, lets have less of the technobabble, and less of the "dragging canon into things". How do you people ever expect to find people to RP with, if you base all of your ideas on canon or shamelessly steal scenarios?

I'm not talking about a simple basis, I'm talkign about embracing canon so much that nothing else can be right and bludgeoning people with it if they wrong you. I was to understand that NS was meant to be all.....fluid and accepty....

It is, except for SQ and his ilk. And me when I feel like an asshole enough to enforce near invulnerability of Necron vessels, and their ability to rip ships the size of small cities apart. Who wants that though? Would it please many nations if a fleet of 34 ships could simply waltz through most navies?

Okay heres what im gonna do, Everyone who wasnt in the orginal post, and either A has fewwer than 600 posts, and is being a douche bag. or B. just being a douche bag thinking they are all cool and stuff. Im just gonna ignore.

so people on the list of ignoring right now..

electronX
naggeroth.

i don care if you joined last year 2005 or 1989.

you have barely any experiance at RPing as seen by your lack of posts.
therefore excuse me when i dont accept your rudely placed criticism.

Everything i explain. 1. Does work in physics. my shields are not a godmod, ive already said theres a potential of them overloading. Im not gonna tell you the truel intimate dynamics, because i dont want people stealing my technology. Ive already said its for sale. Spend the 25 billion NS dollars, and ill tell you all about it and how it works. the shields repowerthem selves but can possibly overload, so the deathstar, could cause my shields to overload, my modulator probably cant handle that much excess and will let too much energy through. This is why i dont usually Rp outside UII cause they realize that, really anything is possible, and i dont have to restrict myself cause some brats who think theyre cool and know stuff, dont like it. My technology is sound and applicable.

and Seaquest. i use absolutes in this case, because it is an Absolute case.

The shields work against all type of energy weapons. Charge particals, Neutrons, laser, etc... etc... Projectiles, such as rail guns, that actually lob missles at me, and normal torpedos, and missles and such, can ultimatly rip appart my shields. im not gonna inhibit my tech skills just cause u dont like how powerful it is and think its tech wanking. Im tired of dealing with the Liberal people (not to offend anyone) in the sense that, you must not be too powerful to make it fair to all people, and all people have to agree on it. FUCK THAT. I actually put alot of time and research, and NS money into creating these things. You dont like it, oh well. I dont really give a shit. The only reason i bothered to defend my tech was to keep RPing, but the thread is over, im moving my fleets to a diff thread, and i dont feel like dealing with this anymore. Good day gentlemen.

In the future instead of trying to make other peoples tech more beatable, instead make your own tech stronger. I like the earlier analogy.

Cave man Vs Robat walker. Cave man causes rockslide that burries and destroys Walker. see finding ways to over come extreme adversity. Not hey, im not gonna play until you turn off your shields. so you see the gayness of this whole thing.

and just a little side note
So tell me, do you concider something that recharges itself as its being used as long as you keep using it and keep it in good conidition a god mod?
if so, better get rid of your Cars, thats what it does.

It is, except for SQ and his ilk. And me when I feel like an asshole enough to enforce near invulnerability of Necron vessels, and their ability to rip ships the size of small cities apart. Who wants that though? Would it please many nations if a fleet of 34 ships could simply waltz through most navies?

no but if they have the tech and can back their claims.....tough cookies man... i mean, no ones happy with a nuke, i mean it can destroy an entire city, yet the actual warhead part is about half the size that i am. my point is, people have cool tech that they design. you may not like the power of it, but tough shit man, ive givven you all the facts you need. Your inability to see anything past your own ass (and this isnt like you this is the people who keep being a prick like electron or Naggorath) is not my problem.

Okay heres what im gonna do, Everyone who wasnt in the orginal post, and either A has fewwer than 600 posts, and is being a douche bag. or B. just being a douche bag thinking they are all cool and stuff. Im just gonna ignore.

RIIIGHT! Because telling you not to splooge all over the RP with twinky shields makes US douchebags.

so people on the list of ignoring right now..

electronX
naggeroth.

i don care if you joined last year 2005 or 1989.

you have barely any experiance at RPing as seen by your lack of posts.
therefore excuse me when i dont accept your rudely placed criticism.

Oh yesss, yesss, we don't have an obscenely high number of posts so we're wrong! SQ has about 3700 or so posts, Sephrioth and Hataria have high numbers too. So by you're logic they're the greatest RPers of all time! After all, me and Naggeroth haven't been here forever reading, watching, and learning. WE MUST HAVE NO EXPIERENCE.

Everything i explain. 1. Does work in physics. my shields are not a godmod, ive already said theres a potential of them overloading. Im not gonna tell you the truel intimate dynamics, because i dont want people stealing my technology. Ive already said its for sale. Spend the 25 billion NS dollars, and ill tell you all about it and how it works. the shields repowerthem selves but can possibly overload, so the deathstar, could cause my shields to overload, my modulator probably cant handle that much excess and will let too much energy through. This is why i dont usually Rp outside UII cause they realize that, really anything is possible, and i dont have to restrict myself cause some brats who think theyre cool and know stuff, dont like it. My technology is sound and applicable.

So it takes a death star super beam to MAYBE get your shields down? Again wanking, your still total disregard for science aside.

and Seaquest. i use absolutes in this case, because it is an Absolute case.

The shields work against all type of energy weapons. Charge particals, Neutrons, laser, etc... etc... Projectiles, such as rail guns, that actually lob missles at me, and normal torpedos, and missles and such, can ultimatly rip appart my shields. im not gonna inhibit my tech skills just cause u dont like how powerful it is and think its tech wanking. Im tired of dealing with the Liberal people (not to offend anyone) in the sense that, you must not be too powerful to make it fair to all people, and all people have to agree on it. FUCK THAT. I actually put alot of time and research, and NS money into creating these things. You dont like it, oh well. I dont really give a shit. The only reason i bothered to defend my tech was to keep RPing, but the thread is over, im moving my fleets to a diff thread, and i dont feel like dealing with this anymore. Good day gentlemen.

In the future instead of trying to make other peoples tech more beatable, instead make your own tech stronger. I like the earlier analogy.

Cave man Vs Robat walker. Cave man causes rockslide that burries and destroys Walker. see finding ways to over come extreme adversity. Not hey, im not gonna play until you turn off your shields. so you see the gayness of this whole thing.

and just a little side note
So tell me, do you concider something that recharges itself as its being used as long as you keep using it and keep it in good conidition a god mod?
if so, better get rid of your Cars, thats what it does.

You've been ignored by Whyatica already, so in the end it doesn't matter. You should atleast take notice that trying to FORCE people to accept your hideious wank leads to these kind of situations, and ruins RPs. But since I obviously don't have $_arbitrary_number_of_posts, I must be wrong :rolleyes:

RIIIGHT! Because telling you not to splooge all over the RP with twinky shields makes US douchebags.

No, by rufisng point blank to accept stuff that is possible, just because it gives the person using them a severe advantage, and calling it tech wanking. See heres what tech wanking is. Theres a difference between god modding. God modding is refusing to take any losses, role playing others people losses, etc etc. tech wanking, is the term people use to describe, people taking extremely powerful and advanced technology, that gives them a severe upperhand, sometimes an unbeatable upper hand. Regardless of whether or not the tech is possible or not. people hate how powerful they are. So they invented techwanking. of Purposely making your stuff extremely powerful and nigh unbeatable. Well DUH DUMSHIT. Thats the whole purpose of Military Engineering. To make your stuff better and more powerful than your enemies. im under no obligation to make my tech suitable for you, nor am i under any obligation to submit to anything the other Rpers say. Ive made a powerful and Enourmously effective shield system. Ive explained how it works, and my explenations are pheasable.


Oh yesss, yesss, we don't have an obscenely high number of posts so we're wrong! SQ has about 3700 or so posts, Sephrioth and Hataria have high numbers too. So by you're logic they're the greatest RPers of all time! After all, me and Naggeroth haven't been here forever reading, watching, and learning. WE MUST HAVE NO EXPIERENCE.

no the purpose is your still nubiles, ive been rping much more than you have, and for you to come in here when you werent even apart of it, and start criticing people who are much more experianced is extremely rude and nubish so im choosing to ignore it. i listen to people who are more experianced, ive played against people whove been playing NS since it started and RPing since it started, and those people, had an initial protest against my shields, but once i explained it, they didnt have a problem with it infact they help me make the shields more pheasable.

So it takes a death star super beam to MAYBE get your shields down? Again wanking, your still total disregard for science aside.

see above for my spiel on what wanking actually is. and Dont give the make it fair and fun for all players. News flash, War isnt Fair. The Taliban vs America, isnt fair. Taliban, is at SEVERE disadvantage.



You've been ignored by Whyatica already, so in the end it doesn't matter. You should atleast take notice that trying to FORCE people to accept your hideious wank leads to these kind of situations, and ruins RPs. But since I obviously don't have $_arbitrary_number_of_posts, I must be wrong :rolleyes:

No not Forcing people to accept my more powerful crap, its people like u trying to FORCE me to make myself weaker. ive never had people like Kraven and Whyatica ignored me, and yet repeatedly answered me

No, by rufisng point blank to accept stuff that is possible, just because it gives the person using them a severe advantage, and calling it tech wanking. See heres what tech wanking is. Theres a difference between god modding. God modding is refusing to take any losses, role playing others people losses, etc etc. tech wanking, is the term people use to describe, people taking extremely powerful and advanced technology, that gives them a severe upperhand, sometimes an unbeatable upper hand. Regardless of whether or not the tech is possible or not. people hate how powerful they are. So they invented techwanking. of Purposely making your stuff extremely powerful and nigh unbeatable. Well DUH DUMSHIT. Thats the whole purpose of Military Engineering. To make your stuff better and more powerful than your enemies. im under no obligation to make my tech suitable for you, nor am i under any obligation to submit to anything the other Rpers say. Ive made a powerful and Enourmously effective shield system. Ive explained how it works, and my explenations are pheasable.

Tech wanking is a term used to describe people with obscenely powerful and wanky tech that does godmoddish things (not taking any damage for instance). And yes, since cooperative RP was not created for oyu to senselessly gratify yourself you do have to make your technology acceptable to us, or leave the RP, because the other participants do not agree to the technology as it works.


no the purpose is your still nubiles, ive been rping much more than you have, and for you to come in here when you werent even apart of it, and start criticing people who are much more experianced is extremely rude and nubish so im choosing to ignore it. i listen to people who are more experianced, ive played against people whove been playing NS since it started and RPing since it started, and those people, had an initial protest against my shields, but once i explained it, they didnt have a problem with it infact they help me make the shields more pheasable. '

No, what is 'nubish' is telling people who have more writing ability in the lint coalescing in their bellybuttons, than you do in your whole body, to fuck off because they don't have an arbitrary number of posts. What is 'nubish(this is not a word I am sure)' is your insistence that people who have a POINT and are trying to save a threatd from your senseless WANKING are wrong/douchebags because they don't have as many posts as you do, since well, we all know short posts with barely any substance in them = good posts :rolleyes:



see above for my spiel on what wanking actually is. and Dont give the make it fair and fun for all players. News flash, War isnt Fair. The Taliban vs America, isnt fair. Taliban, is at SEVERE disadvantage.

No one else in NationStates is the Taliban unless they agree to that. You don't make the rules and set what advantages people do or do not have because you want to kick their asses in an RP you shouldn't logically be involved in. You're not the God of Roleplay, so stop acting like it.



No not Forcing people to accept my more powerful crap, its people like u trying to FORCE me to make myself weaker. ive never had people like Kraven and Whyatica ignored me, and yet repeatedly answered me
I'm not trying to force you to do anything other than to stop masturbating all over the RP with tech you know is wanky and godmoddish. Of course, you want the RP to revolve around you and not let anyon else have their say in how things should go down, so I guess I must be off base trying to help you.

no the purpose is your still nubiles, ive been rping much more than you have, and for you to come in here when you werent even apart of it, and start criticing people who are much more experianced is extremely rude and nubish so im choosing to ignore it. i listen to people who are more experianced, ive played against people whove been playing NS since it started and RPing since it started, and those people, had an initial protest against my shields, but once i explained it, they didnt have a problem with it infact they help me make the shields more pheasable.


just because they have low post counts doesn't mean they are a noob. they are people that are low post count but have massive Experince. Maybe they had other nations and started new ones. like if they got deleted. they are plenty of nations that have low post counts but high experince. Or maybe they have a large post cont but most of them were in general and have only 100 of them in the IC forums.

Tech wanking is a term used to describe people with obscenely powerful and wanky tech that does godmoddish things (not taking any damage for instance). And yes, since cooperative RP was not created for oyu to senselessly gratify yourself you do have to make your technology acceptable to us, or leave the RP, because the other participants do not agree to the technology as it works.

Right lets break this down, Obscenely powerful tech..... Um...how do you criticize powerful tech. Your tech is too powerful and we dont like it....weaken it..... thats basically what your saying.

I will again go over the basics of my shield.

Converts weapon energy into power energy, thus returning the shields to 100 percent. It doenst just absorbe your crap like before it hits me, i still have the impact on my shield, it still hits my shield and weakens it, but it takes the energy that hit my shield and converts it into more power for my shield, thus keeping the shield operating.


No, what is 'nubish' is telling people who have more writing ability in the lint coalescing in their bellybuttons, than you do in your whole body, to fuck off because they don't have an arbitrary number of posts. What is 'nubish(this is not a word I am sure)' is your insistence that people who have a POINT and are trying to save a threatd from your senseless WANKING are wrong/douchebags because they don't have as many posts as you do, since well, we all know short posts with barely any substance in them = good posts :rolleyes:

um..just no. i never talked about anyones writing ability cause frankly i dont care, if you can get the point across, cool. if you cant, well then somethings wrong with you.

1. you were not part of this thread nor the IC thread, nor the thread that spawned the thread.

2. you had no point coming in here and trying to "save the thread" cause the thread doesnt concern you.

3. your point, i have thought over and concidered it to be wrong. Cause you point is always, im not allowed to have very powerful technology, cause it makes other people at a disadvantage.

I agree that this is to tell a story and know that it has no effect on the game. But i actually find role playing fun, and take it seriously, such as analyzing your nations economy to inorder to find out how large your military can be, how much money you have for military, all that stuff. i factor all taht in to making my posts, and yes....i like to win. who doesnt. So i take the steps to make sure i win. I actually fucking told people how to beat my shields, if he had found away to overcome my shielding, i wouldnt have said anything, i would have been .pretty surprised and impressed. But instead, he proceeded to bitch that my stuffs to powerful. WHich is what calling Tech wank on some one is.

This is an example of techwanking, provied by urese truelly miney meihm
"Your weapons do...let me check...zero damage to my ships. i blast you, you die instantly"

That is tech wanking. No explanation of why my weapons do zero damage, it just how it is.

Heres my thing

"my scientist have engineered a compound that in partical form converts energy from evergy weapons, into a different form of energy. That energy also happens to be the energy that powers my shields. So taking what they learned from this they proceeded to adapt it into my partical shields. So now when ever my shields get hit. The energy from the weapon is converted into the energy that powers my shield. The energy is then absorbed and used to recharge the generator for my shield. So basically im using your own weapons against you."






No one else in NationStates is the Taliban unless they agree to that. You don't make the rules and set what advantages people do or do not have because you want to kick their asses in an RP you shouldn't logically be involved in. You're not the God of Roleplay, so stop acting like it.

it was an analogy dude. No i dont set the advantages either. I make my technology, and RP it. ITs up to you to find ways to over come, or if you cant....surrender. And yes i like to win as i said before, so does everyone, but when i lose i admit it. I lost in the Plants Revolution, which was before i had my tech.

i never said i was the god of roll play, stop resulting to insults cause ure arguments are run dry.




I'm not trying to force you to do anything other than to stop masturbating all over the RP with tech you know is wanky and godmoddish. Of course, you want the RP to revolve around you and not let anyon else have their say in how things should go down, so I guess I must be off base trying to help you.

your trying to get me to weaken my ships by not letting me use technology i invented. i listend to whyaticas arguments, and i understand what hes saying, and i tried to explain to him why he was wrong. and he reverted to. "Any tech that my guns cant damage is a godmod." now whos the one trying to control the thread. HMMM?????? lesson, stay out of shit that dont concern you.

just because they have low post counts doesn't mean they are a noob. they are people that are low post count but have massive Experince. Maybe they had other nations and started new ones. like if they got deleted. they are plenty of nations that have low post counts but high experince. Or maybe they have a large post cont but most of them were in general and have only 100 of them in the IC forums.


eh okay ill agree to that. I stand corrected.

Tarsonis: Stop being an ***hole.

You killed an entire RP, the entire forum finds you annoying, and quite frankly you're getting on my nerves. It's wank, and wank is bad. In fact you never had a reason to be in the thread ICly. I mean it makes no sense, first you steal some stuff from him and THEN you help him? That makes no sense whatsoever. I had a reason to attack Lyon though, because I had a guy down there.

Did Aralonia and Whyatica have a reason? Probably not but at least they did't wank.

In short I hope you're happy.

This was said before but you never answered. would you shields survive a hit from the death star's super laser?

Everyone please calm down. There is no reason to get so excited over this.

I think if this keeps going someone might get carried away and say something that should not be said.

Everyone please calm down.

One think I would like to interject is the postcounts should not be considered because you don't know if they were done in General, or even spam posts. The quality instead of the quanity should count.

Also, the story takes precidence over everything. I have designed my tech to handle the strongest opponants but I always adjust it for the story. (At least I try to...)

Now could the arguments please be moved off this Thread so it can be used for the RP it was created for?

It was designed to move the shield arguments out of the IC thread.

True but the arguments went beyond the shields into other areas a few times.

After seven pages of them this could be considered a lost cause because nobody wants to conciede anything.

Now could the arguments please be moved off this Thread so it can be used for the RP it was created for?

Don't even try Balrogga :P

Seeing as the RP was a) retconned and b) locked, this thread is pointless too.

Right lets break this down, Obscenely powerful tech..... Um...how do you criticize powerful tech. Your tech is too powerful and we dont like it....weaken it..... thats basically what your saying.

Too powerful in that it is nigh-invincible to energy attacks, denying some people the ability to fight you. That's called wanking, pure and simple. I've said it probably a thousand times by now but I guess you don't want to get it.


Converts weapon energy into power energy, thus returning the shields to 100 percent. It doenst just absorbe your crap like before it hits me, i still have the impact on my shield, it still hits my shield and weakens it, but it takes the energy that hit my shield and converts it into more power for my shield, thus keeping the shield operating.

Yes, so people with energy weapons can't hurt you, riight.




um..just no. i never talked about anyones writing ability cause frankly i dont care, if you can get the point across, cool. if you cant, well then somethings wrong with you.

No, you just made it about $_postnumber, as if that matter jack shit in the big scheme of things.

1. you were not part of this thread nor the IC thread, nor the thread that spawned the thread.

OOC discussion thread, one without a notice saying neutral parties can't be involved.

2. you had no point coming in here and trying to "save the thread" cause the thread doesnt concern you.

And... wrong. The thread concerns me because if you tech wank here, you tech wank everywhere, and someone at some point has to say something to get you to stop.

3. your point, i have thought over and concidered it to be wrong. Cause you point is always, im not allowed to have very powerful technology, cause it makes other people at a disadvantage.

An unfair disadvantage because in these spontaneous roleplayers no one OKed you having twinky technology to try and beat them with.

I agree that this is to tell a story and know that it has no effect on the game. But i actually find role playing fun, and take it seriously, such as analyzing your nations economy to inorder to find out how large your military can be, how much money you have for military, all that stuff. i factor all taht in to making my posts, and yes....i like to win. who doesnt. So i take the steps to make sure i win. I actually fucking told people how to beat my shields, if he had found away to overcome my shielding, i wouldnt have said anything, i would have been .pretty surprised and impressed. But instead, he proceeded to bitch that my stuffs to powerful. WHich is what calling Tech wank on some one is.

You don't 'win' in an RP. You can't 'win' in a story. There isn't aything to 'win' when roleplaying. So what the hell are you talking about? You want to win some fictional prize in a fictional environment? So you tech wank all over everyone else and claim invulnerabilities? Riiight.

This is an example of techwanking, provied by urese truelly miney meihm
"Your weapons do...let me check...zero damage to my ships. i blast you, you die instantly"

And there weapons did no damage to your ships, techwank even if you haven't killed them instantly.

That is tech wanking. No explanation of why my weapons do zero damage, it just how it is.

THERE DOESN'T NEED TO BE AN EXPLANATION! An explanation does not keep it from being wank/godmode, it just hurls wads of useless technobabble at people so you can 'win' in an RP.




it was an analogy dude. No i dont set the advantages either. I make my technology, and RP it. ITs up to you to find ways to over come, or if you cant....surrender. And yes i like to win as i said before, so does everyone, but when i lose i admit it. I lost in the Plants Revolution, which was before i had my tech.

The buck doesn't stop at us, it stops with you. When you wank and spluge all over the RP that is on YOU pal, so don't try and tell us that we have to appease you and figure out a way to beat you because you want to 'win' an RP with tech wank.

i never said i was the god of roll play, stop resulting to insults cause ure arguments are run dry.

You've yet to respond to any of my points with anything resembling logic. It's all "I WANNA I WANNA!" for your own selfish purposes, flying in the face of what cooperative roleplay is about, acting as a perfect example of what is wrong with writing in NationStates. My 'arguments' have so far, been perfectly valid and I maintain still standing up against you assault of peurile behavior. There is no reason to claim my arguments are on a dry run unless you want to divert attention away from the fact that YOUR ARGUMENTS SUCK given the context of the discussion.




your trying to get me to weaken my ships by not letting me use technology i invented. i listend to whyaticas arguments, and i understand what hes saying, and i tried to explain to him why he was wrong. and he reverted to. "Any tech that my guns cant damage is a godmod." now whos the one trying to control the thread. HMMM?????? lesson, stay out of shit that dont concern you.


He isn't wrong, no one here is wrong but you, you for trying to get your selfish way because (as I have stated before) you want to 'win' in writing. Something which is just freaking pathetic. I duno why people like you are tolerated, because honestly I don't see anyone being able ot have fun with people who are so insistant on dominating the story with their technology instead of interesting characters people can relate within the context of the future tech universe. Writing is not some new Star Wars film; it is the culmanation of creativity written down or typed out by one willing to tell a story with characters set in $universe. Cheesy effects and the technology of that universe is just meant to further along the plot for the sake of the story, not to dominate it, something you should know by now mister more posts = right.

you know what screw this. i Cant drill through the wood... on any of you. Im entitled to use my technology, and your entitled to use ures. If you can prove that it pheasably works. Ive done so, therefor its valid. Im going back to UII because everything was fine until neutral parties got involved. You create the characters and you create story. But a winner is not preditermined. A winner results of the action of the storries and of how the people in them RP. See your just in this to tell a story. People I RP with, actually treat its like a video game, and actually try to win, as everyone whos a good rper does. Cause then you take what happens here and use it in other threads. Story may occur but doesnt die when the thread is over. Threads can even lead to the birth of new nations, if the people are creative. But people like you restrict the imagination. No you cant have that, cause thats not fair for everyone. Thats utter bullshit, i have nothing more to say to you good day sir.

all i did was stick up for myself when people told me what i could and cant do. UII is much better than this crappy place.

you know what screw this. i Cant drill through the wood... on any of you. Im entitled to use my technology, and your entitled to use ures. If you can prove that it pheasably works. Ive done so, therefor its valid.

Er, no. I can prove through magic that my universe crusher that I just made up works, but that does not make it valid. It is only valid if the story calls for it to be as agreed by the other players in the COOPERATIVE ROLEPLAY ENVIRONMENT.

Im going back to UII because everything was fine until neutral parties got involved. You create the characters and you create story. But a winner is not preditermined. A winner results of the action of the storries and of how the people in them RP. See your just in this to tell a story. People I RP with, actually treat its like a video game, and actually try to win, as everyone whos a good rper does.

Anyone who tries to win all the time is not a good RPer. I don't care if that offends anyone, if it pisses anyone off, because that's just the truth. The honest, cold, hard and dirty truth. Writing is an art, not a video game. People who treat writing as the latter generally ruin the entire experience for everyone and cause nothing but anger and dispair.

Cause then you take what happens here and use it in other threads. Story may occur but doesnt die when the thread is over. Threads can even lead to the birth of new nations, if the people are creative. But people like you restrict the imagination. No you cant have that, cause thats not fair for everyone. Thats utter bullshit, i have nothing more to say to you good day sir.


Oh, blah blah more bullshit. I don't limit anyone, I don't demand anything of anyone short of recognition when I do something in the RP. You, on the other hand, limit everyone else by tech wanking and demand they fall before you and kiss your ass. There is nothing imaginative about belittling and demeaning other people because you want to 'win' something already proven to be pathetic. As I have said and others, plot devices are one thing of needlessly wanking all over other people is another. Invincible shields are not plot devices here, just wank you invented and shattered science with so you could beat everyone else.

Yup; writing is an art, and I for one embrace it to the full. I don't care if I win or lose, only that what I write is enjoyable, for myself and the audience. NS is like a giant gestalt writing environment, where ideas and concepts can be bounced around and traded.

Things like what you propose are plot devices, not for every day use.