NationStates Jolt Archive


The *sigh* Star Trek vs. Star Wars Debate Thread

Navick
20-06-2006, 20:54
Since, assorted others (myself sometimes included) cannot help but go around correcting others in certain threads strewn about the II sphere, I figured that the time has come for a thread dedicated to collecting all the junk in one area so as to keep it from tainting every thread in II dealing with the subject. Now obviously this is a debate that should have probably ended long ago, but it keeps coming up no matter how stupid time has proven it to be. But enough of my bellyaching, let's get on with it.

My two cents:

The Empire is all about strength and fear, they kick alot of ass and scare people at the same time. Their guns are powerful, fleets are vast, and their ships are huge. They're not something to be trifled with and few known canon races could match them strength for strength. You have to use smarts to beat them, you have to exploit the fact that such large empires are generally slow and clumsy, and often times inept. Trying to fight them on a strength vs. strength basis is just damned looney.

Onto the Federation, they're all about smarts if you pay any attention to the shows, atleast they're suppossed to be even if some of the writers (VGR, ENT) can fuck that up. Most of the show is spent with the Captains of the various ships we see on screen in tough situations using their brains to resolve the siutation whereas trying to shoot at the problem would have just made it worse.

So what do we do once we mix these two things together? Well obviously, the Empire will own the Federation in any large scale tactical engagement given their weapon power alone. Any ground battles will go to the Empire due to combined arms support and the fact the Federation just downright sucks at it. However, if the Federation has anymore Picards or Kirks lying around, no doubt they will come up with some sorta plan that plays against the Empire's weaknesses and even the playing field a bit.

Problems? Well if it was just the Federation alone, which I think for the sake of debate it is, they'd be snowed under by Emperical numbers and conquered because well, they're small. But if the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma qudarants united (like that'd happen) I think they'd all have more of a chance.

Well that is my two cents, obviously no flaming being an ass yadda yadda. Point of this thread is similar to Bal's FT arguments thread; any issues relating to SW-vs-ST should be regulated to this thread.
Rodenka
20-06-2006, 21:02
Noes, you fool! You've created the biggest flame bait thread ever! *hands you flameproof suit, then sits back with some popcorn* =P
Nova Boozia
20-06-2006, 21:02
I am split between feelings of relief that this shit has found a home and horror at what a monster this thread may become.
Franberry
20-06-2006, 21:07
We're in for quite a show

this is the biggest bait I have ever seen
Xessmithia
20-06-2006, 21:40
Even if all the ST races (bas deus ex machina's like the Q and Organians) joined together they still couldn't stop the Empire.

The best any ST power could hope for is a guerilla movement. Which would be a minor nuisance at its worst.
Jarvon
20-06-2006, 21:42
Designing a weapon with ergonomics inmind goes totally against weapon effectiveness. The little phaser pistol doohicky doesn't even have sights for aiming, and neither did most phaser rifles till First Contact, but even then the range was horribly low and accuracy was always a problem.

Wrong. Take a look at the TNG Type II hand phaser. You see that channel between the two raised sections just in front of the buttons and right behind the emitter? That's the sight.

Regardless of what *type* of phasers they are, anyone watching the shows notices that A) they do take some time to charge, hence why they do not fire constantly on screen (if I am not mistaken Phasers use capactiors, which means that la, they need time to build up energy before they can fire again) B) They are not that accurate. They miss even at point blank range at times, how is that in any way accurate?

A.) You would be mistaken. There is no on-screen canon evidence that has ever suggested they use capacitors. Phaser arrays are made up of force-coupled phaser emitters that add their energy to the next in the line until they reach the part of the arc that the energy needs to be fired from to hit the target.

Some info on Phasers:

"Phasers" are the term used for standard beam artillery weapons originally utilized by the United Federation of Planets since the mid 2200's. Since then the technology has been independently developed, copied, stolen, and imitated by several less-powerful interstellar groups in favor of disruptors, which are most often used by other large non-Federation governments. The name of the weapon is actually an acronym for PHASed Energy Rectification, a holdover from previous technologies that converted energy from one form to another without need for an intermediate energy transformation; a process analogous to turning solid water (ice) into gaseous form (steam) without ever becoming a liquid. Today, phasers are used in wide application, from the cannons, banks, and arrays found onboard various starships and facilities down to handheld weaponry employed by StarFleet away teams.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/phaser_array.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/hand_phaser.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/oldenter.jpg

Phaser operation is dependent on a short-lived subatomic particle called a rapid nadion, which is a nuclear disruptor. When found in high enough concentrations and energy states, this special type of nadion negates the Strong Nuclear Force that binds the protons and neutrons of atomic matter together. This process results in the spontaneous destruction of the nucleus in what is known as "explosive decoupling."

This reaction alone liberates a great amount of thermal energy, as the natural repulsion between subatomic particles within the nucleus causes the matter to instantaneously disassociate into free-floating protons, neutrons, and electrons. Essentially, the rapid nadion effect causes matter to spontaneously undergo nuclear fission. Because of this exothermic nuclear effect, phaser weapons are capable of causing much more damage than would be possible with a comparatively powered direct energy-transfer weapon, such as traditional lasers.

Nadions themselves are a class of near-zero rest mass particles produced when an exotic crystal called fushigi-no-umi (or boronite) becomes energized. They are electrically neutral and composed of two positively charged and two negatively charged elemental Geheiminis particles, which have found extended application within the Federation. Most nadions are harmless non-interactive particles produced as a side effect of various technologies or natural processes, and fall in to three basic categories: slow, regular, and rapid.
Slow nadions have a phase variance of less than .00001 when compared with normal matter, and are often found as side effects of transporters and other matter-energy transfer devices. They do not interact with any kind of periodic matter, and are usually not detected unless specifically scanned for. Regular nadions, also called natural nadions can have phase variances anywhere as high as .0001, and are usually found in nature as a side effect of subspace anomalies. Sometimes these nadions will interact with matter, exciting atoms to higher energy states for short periods of time.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/transporter.jpg

Rapid nadions, however, are only produced by the artificial excitation of fushigi-no-umi by plasma or other forms of energy transfer. Their phase variances can range as high as .001 and have the exotic effect of negating the Strong Nuclear Force within atomic nuclei. At such extreme variances, these particles begin to alter the phasic state of the matter they interact with, "dragging" it out of sync with the rest of the universe, in an event commonly called "vaporization." This effect applies to both the matter and energy released in the explosive decoupling effect, conveniently shunting dangerous radiation out of the surrounding environment.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/vaporization.jpg

At regulated energy levels, the destructiveness of the rapid nadion can be controlled to a high degree, balancing its thermal impact with its nuclear disruptive effect, creating a wide range of desired results in a target; from mild stunning of an organism to rapid vaporization and transfer out of the normal space-time continuum. Similar results can be achieved by rapid nadions simply shunted through a focusing artifice, as is the case with disruptor weapons. However, usually these results are less predictable and potentially dangerous. Uneven vaporizations often occur with the use of disruptors, causing excruciating pain upon blast impact, where as phaser-controlled nadions quickly and uniformly vaporize matter, with less much risk to the user. This disparity partially has to do in which way the disruptor crystals are forced pulse charged and with how the resulting beam is handled.
Phasers are commonly deployed in one of three basic configurations aboard starships and starbases: cannons, banks, and arrays, but other groups are known to have applied phaser technology to different application. Phaser cannons were the first widely used emplacements aboard federation starships during the 2240's. Consisting of a computer controlled power flow regulator, they were capable of both intermediate pulse fire or continuous phaser bursts. Phaser cannons are often still found on Federation space stations and other facilities, although their design commonly differs from those used back in the early 23rd century.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/quantum_phaser.jpg

Phaser banks are a more contemporary design, reinforcing and complicating the original cannon setup into a more compact and powerful device. The term "bank" comes from the fact that these emitters, unlike their cannon predecessors, were controlled by an EPS submaster, a central device that directed energy flow to each phaser emplacement. Since early Federation starships could not provide enough energy flow for the EPS submaster to simultaneously distribute to each emitter, the banks had to "charge" before they could fire.
Phaser arrays expand and enhance the phaser bank design by actually placing emitters side-by-side in long stretching bands of up to two hundred individual emplacements. The emplacements are interdependent, however; rapid nadion charges from each of the individual emitters compounds into the final discharge beam; the visual effect of this in one or two orange spots advancing along the length of a phaser array before discharging toward a target. The main advantage of phaser arrays is that they increase the firing arc of a starbase or starship considerably, while also allowing for more powerful and longer lasting bursts of rapid nadions.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/phaserbolt.jpg

Phaser operation generally proceeds in the following manner: The EPS submaster controls energy supply to a group of sub-routers called flow regulators. Flow regulators act as a backup system to the EPS submaster, ensuring that the proper amounts of energy are sent to the emitters. Once energy passes through the flow regulators, a system called the plasma distribution manifold takes over.

The plasma distribution manifold uses a system of lasers to energize compact pockets of helium gas into plasma. From there, a series of magnetic tubes and valves guides the plasma to an emplacement's pre-fire chamber, where a crystal of fushigi-no-umi is waiting. The plasma energizes the crystal, and it emits rapid nadions, which are focused and directed out of the emitter chamber in the form of a phaser beam.

The particle beam travels at nearly and speed of light, decelerating from its point of origin, and for this reason for a long time phasers could not be used while at warp unless the two ships were at or very near the same warp velocity. This problem was solved recently, however, by jacketing the phaser beam in a subspace annular confinement beam (ACB), allowing these weapons to be utilized while at hyperlight velocities.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/fushiginoumi.jpg

Here's a little info on why SW ray shields don't work against ST weapons:

Because of the phased nature of nadion particles, Imperial ray shielding proved ineffective in repelling phaser weapons during the skirmish at Imatia. This problem, however, was quickly rectified by Imperial engineers as such a shortcoming was categorically unacceptable to the patrons of the Galactic Empire.

Here's info on disrupters:

Disruptors rely heavily on technology similar to phasers, and are utilized by many different governments and groups throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Disruptors find their name from the effect that they have on matter.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/klingon_disruptor.jpg

Like phasers, they rely on rapid nadions, which disrupt the Strong Nuclear Force that binds the protons and neutrons of atomic matter together. And like phasers, they cause matter to decouple in an explosive manner.

But disruptors rely much more on brute force to get the job done than phasers do; where phasers take extra care to evenly energize their boronite crystals, disruptors simply shunt a predetermined amount of energy into the crystal chamber, and force the ensuing beam through a focusing artifice. The individual energy states of each nadion expelled from the focusing artifice can vary by a wide degree, causing haphazard distribution of energy among an impacted target.

The advantage this provides over phasers is that complicated systems are not needed to ensure the regulated ejection of nadions, and more room remains for additional power systems, boosting the overall destructive force of the weapon.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/disruptor.gif

However, the use of disruptors is by no means an exact practice. Stun settings, when available, can sometimes be quite deadly, and the weapon itself falls far short of a phaser in terms of practical usages outside of pure weaponry. There is, also, a much greater risk of "chamber fire," a misfire of the nadion pulse, resulting in an explosive vaporization of the weapon's chassis, power cell, and the user.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/rom_warbird1.jpg

Most disruptors come in a pulse design, where the boronite chamber actually seals for short intervals, building up nadion energy before releasing it. This is common aboard starships which mount disruptor cannons, but sustained-fire disruptors are also used, producing beams of a similar appearance to phaser banks.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b91/SeaQuest_Sim/Weapons/rom_warbird2.jpg

Now for some info on the SW disrupter varients:

Disruptors find limited use within the fringes of the Galactic Empire, as such weapons are a favorite among bounty hunters and assassins; the Tenloss model disruptor was one of Boba Fett's weapons of choice. Outlawed by the Old Republic, such weapons have been largely forgotten by mainstream weapons developers, as they are considered unstable and dangerous to operate.

B.) There is plenty of on-screen canon evidence to disprove your statement. I cite the TNG episode where pin-point accuracy was needed to drill through a planet's crusts in exactly the right spot to release green house gasses to prevent an ice age that would devestate the population. I cite the TOS episode where the original Enterprise was able to fire a stun beam at the exact spot ordered.

Need I go on?

And I will point you to the TNG episode where some low powered 40mW lasers shook the enterprise as bad (though no shield or hull damage) as if it had been from a klingon antimatter torpedo. Also I don't know the precise power outputs of any weapon ina ny universe, mainly because it isn't important and I am not some rabid fanboy who will dedicate that amount of time to prove how big an asshole I am. I do know though, that the Federation couldn't destroy ONE mountain sized asteroid whereas SW style turbolasers can. Though again power levels are best left to people like Wong and Saxton.

The ship was shaken because:

A.) It was to show interally that the ship had been hit when external shots and viewscreen images weren't being shown;

B.) The KE imparted to the shields from the impact was negated back through the emitters and imparted into the hull.

Oh, and ST weapons can destroy asteroids. Ever hear of a little thing called a Photon Torpedo? Seriously, if ST ships can blow up a Borg Cube thats 4 kilometers per side, a simple asteroid, which would technically be melted due to thermal energy imparted from the phaser or disrupter beam, is nothing.

I cite the TNG episode where the Enterprise-D was caught in the booby trap in an asteroid field and had to destroy, with pin-point accuracy, specific (larger than mountain-sized) asteroids to escape.

Please. I grew up with Trek and happen to enjoy it more than Star Wars. However, I am more than willing to admit that against other canon races it has its short comings and in this situation would loose if it tried to play on a strength v. strength basis. Which is why I suggested any trek players do like the captains of TOS et al did, used their smarts to resolve less than ideal situations.

Yes, ST tech does has its shortcomings, but you haven't touched any of them.

Also making a claim such as THAT knowing full well the extent some people (Wong, Saxton) have gone to totally prove otherwise is, not good on your part.

I don't know who those guys are, but I know what I know.

For example, the biased crap on SD.net is worthless. Canon on-screen evidence, like I use, is not.

EDIT: Yes, this is Ex.

And that matters not to me.

well, seeing as we do not know the Borg use other ships rather then Cubes, Spheres, Probes, and "the Queen's Yacht" i do not know how you would know if an assimilated ship would repair this fast? i do ot remember them doing such things on other ships

Actually, canon on-screen evidence does exist. There's the Raven from Voyager. Supposedly the Borg had her for at least a decade and didn't make her into a Sphere, Cube, Probe, or something else.

really? i thought it was 3km

Yes, a standard Borg Cube (like the Wolf 359 one) is 4 clicks per side.

wait, wrong Yoda duel...anyway

Force Deflection was a Force power used by Jedi and Sith who were without a lightsaber, or chose not to carry one. It is unknown exactly if the Jedi and Sith merely created a wall using the Force to deflect blaster bolts and Force Powers, or if he actually deflected them back with his hand. It took much skill in the Force to use this, however, and most Jedi and Sith used their lightsabers instead to deflect blaster bolts. Jedi Master Yoda used it to block Force Lightning when duelling Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious and Darth Vader used it to deflect Han Solo's blaster in Cloud City It is possible that Yoda combined Force Deflection with Force Absorb when protecting himself against Force Lightning. He was unsuccessful because he wanted to gather the lightning into an orb to fire back at Sidious, but it overloaded and exploded in their faces, throwing the combatants apart

I say ask Huntaer about it.


@ALL: Oh, as I've got to leave for class in a few minutes, I've just copied and pasted my last post on this from the other thread. I'll make a response to the other posts before mine in this thread when I get back around 10pm.
Navick
20-06-2006, 21:59
Wrong. Take a look at the TNG Type II hand phaser. You see that channel between the two raised sections just in front of the buttons and right behind the emitter? That's the sight.

Oh please. Those two raised sections couldn't be the sights if only because they have to be the most piss poorly designed weapons sights I HAVE EVER SEEN. Regardless the angle at which you'd have to hold the phaser to aim and shoot at something with sights like that just makes it less accurate.


A.) You would be mistaken. There is no on-screen canon evidence that has ever suggested they use capacitors. Phaser arrays are made up of force-coupled phaser emitters that add their energy to the next in the line until they reach the part of the arc that the energy needs to be fired from to hit the target.

Well I can't dig through every episode in the universe to find where a tactical officer says the word 'capacitor' though I am pretty sure Tuvok did at one point, I will concede your point that they do not run on primarily on capacitors, however, as lasers are apparently involved, and lasers use capacitors, it makes sense that ST phasers cannot fire continuous beams; the lasers that contribute to the process need time to build up energy to work, and then they have to cool down or explode.

Here's a little info on why SW ray shields don't work against ST weapons:

The ONLY thing I could find on the 'skirmish at Imatia' was a mention of it from the furry conflict, which is a parody of the entire debate, not something you would want to use as evidence here. Also ST style phasers are weaker against dense armors, like the very dense and very strong armor Emperical ships use. Even if SW style shields wouldn't work (they would by all rights) they STILL have to bunch through armor.

Here's info on disrupters:

Now for some info on the SW disrupter varients:

How is ANY of these even related in the slightest?

B.) There is plenty of on-screen canon evidence to disprove your statement. I cite the TNG episode where pin-point accuracy was needed to drill through a planet's crusts in exactly the right spot to release green house gasses to prevent an ice age that would devestate the population. I cite the TOS episode where the original Enterprise was able to fire a stun beam at the exact spot ordered.

Oh, my, they can fire and hit still targets from time to time but at other time miss an enemy ship completely that is much closer to them.

Need I go on?

The ship was shaken because:

A.) It was to show interally that the ship had been hit when external shots and viewscreen images weren't being shown;

And?

B.) The KE imparted to the shields from the impact was negated back through the emitters and imparted into the hull.

... Yes because lasers have kinetic force (almost 99% sure he said lasers, dear).

Oh, and ST weapons can destroy asteroids. Ever hear of a little thing called a Photon Torpedo? Seriously, if ST ships can blow up a Borg Cube thats 4 kilometers per side, a simple asteroid, which would technically be melted due to thermal energy imparted from the phaser or disrupter beam, is nothing.

Neither the Photon torpedo or Phasers worked when Picard had to figure out a way to stop a large mountain sized roid from depopulating a planet.

Also a borg cube is not as dense as an asteroid, in fact they are surprisingly hollow and not as easy to destroy as you seem to believe (how many times did that borg cube get hit with photon torpedos in First Contact?).



Yes, ST tech does has its shortcomings, but you haven't touched any of them.
Shitty ground troops, less than stellar weapon power and accuarcy, and general over reliance on technology.


I don't know who those guys are, but I know what I know.

For example, the biased crap on SD.net is worthless. Canon on-screen evidence, like I use, is not.

Those guys are scientists with actual degrees in science that have determined the lower limits of SW weapon power and compared it to ST weapon power, and they found the Federation is lacking. Wong also runs SD.net, who of course might be a wanker but is a scientist and uses on screen evidence as canon in almost every situation.
Xessmithia
20-06-2006, 22:02
Wrong. Take a look at the TNG Type II hand phaser. You see that channel between the two raised sections just in front of the buttons and right behind the emitter? That's the sight.

You call that a sight? That wouldn't be worth a damn as a sight. And the shape itself of the dustbuster is horrible, there's a reason why the phaser starts looking more and more like a pistol from TNG onward. Because the actors couldn't aim the props worth a damn.



Here's a little info on why SW ray shields don't work against ST weapons:

"Because of the phased nature of nadion particles, Imperial ray shielding proved ineffective in repelling phaser weapons during the skirmish at Imatia. This problem, however, was quickly rectified by Imperial engineers as such a shortcoming was categorically unacceptable to the patrons of the Galactic Empire."

That's from Grahm Kennedy's Portal fanfic isn't it. I hate to tell you but fanfics don't have any say at all on canon.

Now prove that phasers won't be stopped by SW shields.



B.) There is plenty of on-screen canon evidence to disprove your statement. I cite the TNG episode where pin-point accuracy was needed to drill through a planet's crusts in exactly the right spot to release green house gasses to prevent an ice age that would devestate the population. I cite the TOS episode where the original Enterprise was able to fire a stun beam at the exact spot ordered.

Need I go on?

Indeed you do, you still need to deal with all of the shots in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4&search=Trek%20Miss).




Oh, and ST weapons can destroy asteroids. Ever hear of a little thing called a Photon Torpedo?

Like in the episode "Pegasus" where Riker states that it would take all of the Enterprise's torpedoes to destroy the asteroid?

Seriously, if ST ships can blow up a Borg Cube thats 4 kilometers per side, a simple asteroid, which would technically be melted due to thermal energy imparted from the phaser or disrupter beam, is nothing.

Asteroids don't have power cores that go boom when shot at like Borg Cubes.
The Phoenix Milita
20-06-2006, 22:14
Initially the vessel fired jacketed streams of positrons and antiprotons, an equivalent firepower of forty megawatts, which caused no damage to the Enterprise. The Enterprise fired a warning shot at the ship, causing the ship to retreat from the system. The Enterprise attempted to pursue but was unable to close the gap between the two vessels, even after increasing velocity to Warp 9.37.

The ship later reappeared, some time after the Enterprise returned to Rana IV. During its second appearance, the warship looked to the crew of the Enterprise to be much larger and much "meaner."

The Enterprise attempted to hail the ship to warn it to stay away from the planet. In response, the ship fired four hundred gigawatts of particle energy at the Enterprise, causing superficial damage to the ship, but effectively taking down its shields. A second shot took out the rest of the Enterprises shields and caused thermal damage to the hull. Ship sensors, however, were able to determine that the warship was in possession of enormous energy reserves, capable of striking with far more powerful bursts.
there

btw memory alpha only uses Canon evidence refernced to actual episodes.

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Husnock_warship
The Phoenix Milita
20-06-2006, 22:21
My final word before i get embroiled in yet another ST-vs SW thread(you really shcould search before making an identical thread):

The Empire has been defeated while the Federation has survived the Borg, the Dominon and the Romulan rebellion and is still going strong :)
1010102
20-06-2006, 22:24
My final word before i get embroiled in yet another ST-vs SW thread(you really shcould search before making an identical thread):

The Empire has been defeated while the Federation has survived the Borg, the Dominon and the Romulan rebellion and is still going strong :)

I did a search and i found no Star Trek vs. Star Wars threads other than these 2.
The Phoenix Milita
20-06-2006, 22:25
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484985
Navick
20-06-2006, 22:27
That thread is for one old and not as specific as this one.
Franberry
20-06-2006, 22:30
Why can't people accept that they are not compatible?

They use widly different technology types, its like making a Lord of the Rings vs. Pokemon tech. I mean, LOTR has magic and stuff, and Pokemon is a big mess, and thats jsut the same for these two
The Aeson
20-06-2006, 22:39
Well, I'd like to point out, first of all, that the really interesting fight would be the Borg versus the Empire.

Anyways, to keep with the Federation vs Empire , there are a couple of points I'd have to make here.

First, The Empire can destroy planets, yes. (Although both of the Death Stars had fatal flaws, the first being a failure to defend adequately against small single person fighters, and the second being a reliance on a shield generator outside of the Death Star itself, but let's not get into that just at the moment)

Ever hear of the Genesis Torpedo? It overides any genetic material in favor of the material it's programmed to create. So, if they felt like it, they could commit genocide on an equal scale to the destruction of Alderran, without wasting a perfectly good planet.

Second, let's review the standard soldier. Well, since we only really saw soldiers in a couple of episodes, for Star Trek, we'll stick with crew members.

The Stormtroopers may have superior weaponry (I won't get into that now, I'm not qualified.) However, Federation Crewmembers have been seen, on more than one occasion, to go hand-to-hand with aliens of superior strength, usually none to shabby themselves in combat skills (Klingons, Jem-Hadar) and come out on top. So we have to assume that they have top of the line combat training.

Third, transporters. One region where I'm sure no one can debate the supremacy of the Federation. Even assuming that Imperial Shields are somehow configured to deflect transporters, though they've never come into contact with them as far as we've seen, we've seen several teleporters that have been specifically configured to beam through shields. Nasty surprise to suddenly find a bomb in the middle of your bridge, no?

Fourth, cloaking devices. Granted, there is some hints that they exist in the Star Wars universe, but those hints indicate that they are either very large or require tremendous amounts of power. Even if we assume that the Federation is limited to using one ship with a cloaking device (Defiant), that's still a tactical advantage.

Fifth, Tribbles, especially in conjunction with transporters. Nasty little weapon.
Nebarri_Prime
20-06-2006, 22:54
Neither the Photon torpedo or Phasers worked when Picard had to figure out a way to stop a large mountain sized roid from depopulating a planet.

Also a borg cube is not as dense as an asteroid, in fact they are surprisingly hollow and not as easy to destroy as you seem to believe (how many times did that borg cube get hit with photon torpedos in First Contact?).
I cite the TNG episode where the Enterprise-D was caught in the booby trap in an asteroid field and had to destroy, with pin-point accuracy, specific (larger than mountain-sized) asteroids to escape.

i would like to add to this(it may even be the same ep, i do not remember as i have not seen it for a long time) but i do remember Riker stateing that the full Torpedo complement of the Enterprise-D(200+) could not destroy an asteroid. as i said i have not seen it in a long time. thus i do not remember much more then they needed to do something like destroying/geting past and asteroid
Nebarri_Prime
20-06-2006, 22:59
Fourth, cloaking devices. Granted, there is some hints that they exist in the Star Wars universe, but those hints indicate that they are either very large or require tremendous amounts of power. Even if we assume that the Federation is limited to using one ship with a cloaking device (Defiant), that's still a tactical advantage.

SW has them, but the Romulan's and Klingon's kick there ass in this reguard(think of SW cloack as something like Romulan Bird of Pray level tech)
Otagia
20-06-2006, 23:03
Third, transporters. One region where I'm sure no one can debate the supremacy of the Federation. Even assuming that Imperial Shields are somehow configured to deflect transporters, though they've never come into contact with them as far as we've seen, we've seen several teleporters that have been specifically configured to beam through shields. Nasty surprise to suddenly find a bomb in the middle of your bridge, no?
Question: How do the Feds know where to teleport their bomb? As they have no idea of the layout of an ISD, most of what they'd teleport would wind up stuck harmlessly in inanimate matter (read: bulkheads and armor plating).
Franberry
20-06-2006, 23:05
I know barely anything about these two subjects, but...

what about the Force?

Im sure Jedi could own w/e the Trekkies throw at them, cuz they got mind powers
Nebarri_Prime
20-06-2006, 23:07
I know barely anything about these two subjects, but...

what about the Force?

Im sure Jedi could own w/e the Trekkies throw at them, cuz they got mind powers

on the ground, the only thing a Jedi needs to fear 1v1 is a wide spread Phaser blast. in large groups it would probably end up like Geonosis, or if its like the Klingons useing Bat'leths(sp?) like Anakin and Tuskins
Checklandia
20-06-2006, 23:11
star wars rules
thats my piece;)
Bolgaronopoto
20-06-2006, 23:17
The Borg.


The Empire would be completely screwed.

But Picard kicked their butts.

Although I would love to see Spock try to use the Vulcan neck thingy on the Rancor monster, lol...

The initial argument was that the Empire would beat the Federation hands down when it comes to raw firepower.
Does the Empire use any other tactic to beat the snot out of people?
Not really.
So basically the Federation would be trying to figure out their next move, while the Empire is knocking down their door as a distraction, while the freaking Death Star comes around the back and blows up Earth.

Federation: 0
Empire: 6,500,000,000

Plus, the Borg would probably think Vader is a god or something and join forces with them, so the Federation can go back to their silly chess club and sulk.
The Aeson
21-06-2006, 00:16
Question: How do the Feds know where to teleport their bomb? As they have no idea of the layout of an ISD, most of what they'd teleport would wind up stuck harmlessly in inanimate matter (read: bulkheads and armor plating).

Scanners, of course. Granted, the bomb might not get sent to the bridge, but I'm sure they could use their scanners to find somewhere with a large concentration of people to beam the bomb to. Since the only places you would really find a large concentration of people (unless I'm missing something) are the bridge, the mess hall, and vital systems such as whatever the SW equivilant to the engine room is, they've got a pretty good chance of hitting something important.
The Aeson
21-06-2006, 00:18
The Borg.


The Empire would be completely screwed.

But Picard kicked their butts.

Although I would love to see Spock try to use the Vulcan neck thingy on the Rancor monster, lol...

The initial argument was that the Empire would beat the Federation hands down when it comes to raw firepower.
Does the Empire use any other tactic to beat the snot out of people?
Not really.
So basically the Federation would be trying to figure out their next move, while the Empire is knocking down their door as a distraction, while the freaking Death Star comes around the back and blows up Earth.

Federation: 0
Empire: 6,500,000,000

Plus, the Borg would probably think Vader is a god or something and join forces with them, so the Federation can go back to their silly chess club and sulk.

Nah. The Borg would try and assimilate Vader. He'd hold them off for quite a while using his lightsaber and the force, but eventually they would adapt to the energy frequency of his lightsaber and, and while he was force choking one of them and frying a couple others someone would sneak up behind him and inject him with nanoprobes.

Then the Borg would tap into the Force and we'd all be screwed.
Rodenka
21-06-2006, 00:22
All Vader has to do is choke the Borg Queen to death ;)
Jarvon
21-06-2006, 00:28
I'm not even going to waste my time with this BS.

I know what I need to know in regards to my tech. I don't give a rat's ass what the rest of you know (which is obviously little more than what every SW fanboy/fangirl comes up with to make SW seem superior).
Navick
21-06-2006, 00:30
So basically, you're running away after you got your ass handed to you. You clamor about the boards screaming about ST superiority, then we make a debate thread about it and trash that idea in probably five posts total and all you can do is call bs and run away?

Sorry, but calling me a fanboy for Lucas' trash franchise wont win you ANY points in this debate, ever.
The Aeson
21-06-2006, 00:31
All Vader has to do is choke the Borg Queen to death ;)

Yeah. Like the Borg Queen is going to come within range of Vader. And like she doesn't have fifty-nine thousand, seven hundred twenty-three and four thousand millionths clones to whom she can transfer her conciousness.
Nebarri_Prime
21-06-2006, 00:34
I'm not even going to waste my time with this BS.

I know what I need to know in regards to my tech. I don't give a rat's ass what the rest of you know (which is obviously little more than what every SW fanboy/fangirl comes up with to make SW seem superior).

i happen to like both very much, and i state both techs how i view them and from what i know. one thing i know is that ST tech is hard to figure out. because they change the power of there ships depending on what the story requires
Otagia
21-06-2006, 00:40
Yeah. Like the Borg Queen is going to come within range of Vader. And like she doesn't have fifty-nine thousand, seven hundred twenty-three and four thousand millionths clones to whom she can transfer her conciousness.
Of course, so does Palpy, so we have an even match there...
Hannorah
21-06-2006, 00:41
Star Trek v Star Wars debates all seem to slide down into:

Which site do you trust?

A.) http://www.st-v-sw.net/

or

B.) http://www.stardestroyer.net

Both have "rebutals" for each other. At least, the last time I checked about 6 months ago they did.
The Aeson
21-06-2006, 00:44
Of course, so does Palpy, so we have an even match there...

Well, that all boils down whether you consider the books canon.
Nebarri_Prime
21-06-2006, 00:49
Well, that all boils down whether you consider the books canon.

just because....

Holocron canon priority
As of 2000, Lucas Licensing has appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the Holocron continuity database. As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years, but the capabilities of database software allowed for each element of a story, rather than the stories themselves, to be classified on their own merits

The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.

G-canon is "George"-absolute canon; the six Episodes and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources (it's possible that movie novelizations contradict the movies or other EU sources) is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and 'improve' consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' "original" intention (although not plausible at the time of their filming) and also final word.
C-canon is "common" or pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be (they also offer non-canonical options to the player, like choosing female gender to a canonically male character). C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories. Many of the materials labelled as S-canon are older sources which may or may not fit within the continuity, but which have not been fully evaluated prior to inclusion in the Holocron database.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), most game stats, fanon, fanfiction (eg. custom made movies like Revelations and Pink Five), and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Rodenka
21-06-2006, 01:07
Yeah. Like the Borg Queen is going to come within range of Vader. And like she doesn't have fifty-nine thousand, seven hundred twenty-three and four thousand millionths clones to whom she can transfer her conciousness.

I know, I dun really care who wins. xP I just like pissing off fanpeoples.
Hydac
21-06-2006, 01:15
Scanners, of course. Granted, the bomb might not get sent to the bridge, but I'm sure they could use their scanners to find somewhere with a large concentration of people to beam the bomb to. Since the only places you would really find a large concentration of people (unless I'm missing something) are the bridge, the mess hall, and vital systems such as whatever the SW equivilant to the engine room is, they've got a pretty good chance of hitting something important.

Excepy transporters are retardedly easy to disrupt, hell some kinds of ore render them useless.
The Aeson
21-06-2006, 01:18
Excepy transporters are retardedly easy to disrupt, hell some kinds of ore render them useless.

Its a very special ore. Which reminds me of the true Treck advantage. Technobabble! No one can defeat Technobabble! Planet destroying Death Star shooting main weapon directly at your ship? Reverse the polarity of the megatron sequence in the shield matrix and you can not only survive, but overload the circuits of the entire enemy fleet, resurrect Obi-Wan-Kenobi to kick Vader's resperiated *** and save an entire universe.
Nebarri_Prime
21-06-2006, 01:20
Its a very special ore. Which reminds me of the true Treck advantage. Technobabble! No one can defeat Technobabble! Planet destroying Death Star shooting main weapon directly at your ship? Reverse the polarity of the megatron sequence in the shield matrix and you can not only survive, but overload the circuits of the entire enemy fleet, resurrect Obi-Wan-Kenobi to kick Vader's resperiated *** and save an entire universe.

now, seeing that pulled off would be one show to watch...
Jarvon
21-06-2006, 01:47
So basically, you're running away after you got your ass handed to you. You clamor about the boards screaming about ST superiority, then we make a debate thread about it and trash that idea in probably five posts total and all you can do is call bs and run away?

Sorry, but calling me a fanboy for Lucas' trash franchise wont win you ANY points in this debate, ever.

Incorrect.

Actually, I'm just tired of this BS debate and just want to get back to RPing.

Like I said, I know my tech and its strengths and weakness. I couldn't f*ing care less about what the rest of you think about it.
Navick
21-06-2006, 01:59
Incorrect.

Actually, I'm just tired of this BS debate and just want to get back to RPing.

No one can manage to RP with you without your rabid attacks on other people's canon and tech base along with your proclamations of ST superiority. You and anyone like you who constantly and incessently flaunts their technology around as the greatest thing since God said "Let There Be LIGHT!" create the need for these threads so the arguments will cease. Do you honestly think any serious RPers here like these kind of threads outsight the few moments of amusement they get watching people like me waste their time and people like you bitch and moan like children?

Fuck no. People just want to RP without having to get into arugments about ship sizes and canon bullshit. They want to write, no win some imaginary battle on the internet everyone will forget about in a month. Geeze, grow up and RP instead of wasting my time with your peurile antics.

Like I said, I know my tech and its strengths and weakness. I couldn't f*ing care less about what the rest of you think about it.
Show us a weakness you haven't made negligable with modifications and bastardizations.
Jenrak
21-06-2006, 02:13
Star Wars:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Forge
Xessmithia
21-06-2006, 15:00
Well, I'd like to point out, first of all, that the really interesting fight would be the Borg versus the Empire.

Not really.

Borg cube drops out of warp, "We are the Borg, your technological and biological distinvtiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is..." Transmission cuts short as the cube is vapourized by an ISD. The captain continues his afternoon tea. Repeat ad nauseum until the Borg are completely destroyed.

Ever hear of the Genesis Torpedo? It overides any genetic material in favor of the material it's programmed to create. So, if they felt like it, they could commit genocide on an equal scale to the destruction of Alderran, without wasting a perfectly good planet.

The Genesis planet was unstabble and collapsed remember? Also that was a one shot piece of tech that was lost with the people who created it, we can't assume the Federation can build more.

The Stormtroopers may have superior weaponry (I won't get into that now, I'm not qualified.) However, Federation Crewmembers have been seen, on more than one occasion, to go hand-to-hand with aliens of superior strength, usually none to shabby themselves in combat skills (Klingons, Jem-Hadar) and come out on top. So we have to assume that they have top of the line combat training.

Which is why they miss enemies ten feet away and drop their weapons to engage in melee combat when approached by people with melee weapons. That's some real good training there.:rolleyes:

[qupte]Third, transporters. One region where I'm sure no one can debate the supremacy of the Federation. Even assuming that Imperial Shields are somehow configured to deflect transporters, though they've never come into contact with them as far as we've seen, we've seen several teleporters that have been specifically configured to beam through shields. Nasty surprise to suddenly find a bomb in the middle of your bridge, no?[/quote]

Transporters beam through shields that work on a frequency basis, SW shields don't work on a frequency basis so said modifications would not work. And there is no reason to assume that transporters would not be blocked by SW shields. It's also unlikely that transporters will be able to go through SW ship's dense hull armor since they have trouble with too much rock being in the way.

Fourth, cloaking devices. Granted, there is some hints that they exist in the Star Wars universe, but those hints indicate that they are either very large or require tremendous amounts of power. Even if we assume that the Federation is limited to using one ship with a cloaking device (Defiant), that's still a tactical advantage.

One ship with a cloak that doesn't have the firepower to scratch the paint of an Imperial ship. And SW has Crystal Grav Trap sensors to detect cloaked ships. They're rare but that doesn't mean the Empire couldn't build more to face a threat.

Fifth, Tribbles, especially in conjunction with transporters. Nasty little weapon.

Nerve gas > Tribbles.
Rodenka
21-06-2006, 15:56
Nerve gas > Tribbles.

I'm going to put that in my sig if you don't mind...
Amazonian Beasts
21-06-2006, 16:11
For all of you who think the Borg could assimilate any Imperial weaponry, please look deeper. The Empire didn't stick entirely to energy weapons. They had plenty of missile and projectile weaponry as well, and you can't assimilate a concussion missile.
About cloaking fields, there is a Star Wars cloak as well, though it isn't widly used. However, the SW Crystal Gravfield Trap can detect even ST cloak-it uses a gravitational detection ability. So as long as the ship is physically present in the galaxy and dimension, it can be picked up. No hiding.
What ST does have going for it is speed. ST vessels, while lacking SW firepower and numerical advantage, have much greater speeds than SW capital ships.
Xessmithia
21-06-2006, 16:36
I'm going to put that in my sig if you don't mind...

I don't mind at all.

What ST does have going for it is speed. ST vessels, while lacking SW firepower and numerical advantage, have much greater speeds than SW capital ships.

False in both sublight and FTL. ST ships accelerate at around 1000 Gravities, the average SW ship like an ISD accelerates at around 3000 Gravities.

In FTL Warp drive is limited to around 9000c sustained, while SW hyperdrive can sustain speeds of up to 100,000,000c.
Yukatania
21-06-2006, 17:27
Neither.

I have my reasons, I stand by them.
Barkozy
21-06-2006, 17:44
Ah, the old 'which of my fictional series says it does more' debate.

I don't really like most fictional technology levels because they're more used to make a point or advance the plot than to really make sense. The Empire was meant to be the 500-pound gorilla in a war so that the heroes would save the universe, so they said everywhere that the empire was teh rawk.

The Federation is mostly referred to as a peaceful organization and thus it is never described as teh rawk in terms of military force.
The Alien Covenant
21-06-2006, 18:45
The correct answer is, of course, neither. It would be nearly impossible for ont to defeat the other. Trekkies are more agile, even if Xess is right about their accel numbers, which I doubt. Warsies are heavier, and harder to kill. An ISD against say, a squadron of Defiant style ships would turn into a massive dogfight, the Defiants unable to do effective damage to the ISD, and the ISD unable to effectively tag the Defiants, since turbolasers do not propogate at c, and Trektech is more maneuverable. The ISD would not hit. The Trekkies would be hitting often, but doing nearly nothing. I guess eventually the ISD would have to win, since you can only dodge effectively for so long before you get hit hard once and are put out of the fight.

Against VONG, my money is actually on the Trekkiews, due to the nature of Vong defenses. The beam weapons of a Trek ship(still using the Defiant because it's the only real "warship" I can think of) should be able to defeat a Basal in momemnts, allowing them to begin doing damage to the ships much more swiftly than any Imp design.

On that note, throw a third tech into the mix, What about the UNSC or Covies? How would they compare to the bread and butter of FT?
Nebarri_Prime
21-06-2006, 18:49
What ST does have going for it is speed. ST vessels, while lacking SW firepower and numerical advantage, have much greater speeds than SW capital ships.

cross in a day? or in 70 years? SW wins...


The Alien Covenant: the USS Promeithious(sp?) is possibly the strongest warship around(save maybe a Sov, though they are not full warships)
Liberated Vortigaunts
21-06-2006, 18:56
The basic science in both franchises is such utter, utter nonsense that I'm amazed that anybody even considers having this argument in the first place.
Nebarri_Prime
21-06-2006, 18:57
Not really.

Borg cube drops out of warp, "We are the Borg, your technological and biological distinvtiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is..." Transmission cuts short as the cube is vapourized by an ISD. The captain continues his afternoon tea. Repeat ad nauseum until the Borg are completely destroyed.

even if a Borg Cuba cant adapt(it would be able to adapt, if only slightly better then before it adapted) it would still be able to take an extream amount of damage and dish out a large sum before(if) the ISD could destroy it
The Alien Covenant
21-06-2006, 18:59
cross in a day? or in 70 years? SW wins...


The Alien Covenant: the USS Promeithious(sp?) is possibly the strongest warship around(save maybe a Sov, though they are not full warships)

Still. It'd be like an ISD trying to dogfight with a dozen starship sized fighters. It would likely end badly for the Trekkies, but only by luck.

I personally think the two Halo races would beat either side, unless you accept the wanktastic numbers from SD.net. Note to Xess: We don't accept the wanktastic numbers from SD.net.

Trekkies snapped in half by a 600 ton Frigate MAC shell, ISDs melted and dripping from Covenant plasma strikes. Heck, one sliced open by the Sniper Weapon oughta be funny.

I think the Telkjon Vagabond used beam(as opposed to bolt) weapons. It owned all over anything it encountered. Sure it got kinda trashed eventually, but it still was able to beat on anything it met. That means that beam type weapons are demonstrably more effective against ISDs than are bolt style attacks from TLs.
The Alien Covenant
22-06-2006, 03:52
Can no one answer my challenge? Is it that both Warsies and Trekkies are in fact inferior to the rest of us? It seems so, since no one has argued the point. Can anyone make an effective argument against me? Or do I win by default?
Hydac
22-06-2006, 04:02
Since we have no credible analysis of the Covenant plasma weapons we can't really debate their effectiveness vs. other sci-fi universes.

Also, MAC rounds pack a punch, but because they're limited to a set course and sublight speeds, at anything other than close range they're quite easy to avoid, especially for the fairlt fast SW ships and the very agile ST ships.
Arrlia
22-06-2006, 04:30
As a fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars, this question has come up in my mind before. Just recently, though, I had a thought that changed my perspective on the whole thing.

Given their current states, Star Wars would win. Why? The civilization has reached such a high level of technology that it doesn't change barely at all, even over 4,000 years (KOTOR to Battle of Yavin) other than cosmetics and the occasional superweapon that someone churns out. They've plateaued in growth because they're so far along. Star Trek tech is still millenia behind theirs.

NOW, pull Star Wars tech back in time to when it was at the equivalent stage of development, and we might have a whole new story, because the two appear to have taken different paths up the technology tree. The Star Trek vessels have the edge in maneuverability and speed at impulse (see Star Trek VI and the Enterprise approach-at impulse-to Khitomer... it is a similar speed to the deceleration from hyperspace and assault on the Second Death Star in ROTJ, which is at the peak of SW tech), and so it would be much more evenly matched, with the Federation emerging victorious.

And if we're bringing other games and TV shows in, Babylon 5 would get pwned by either one.
The Alien Covenant
22-06-2006, 04:46
As a fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars, this question has come up in my mind before. Just recently, though, I had a thought that changed my perspective on the whole thing.

Given their current states, Star Wars would win. Why? The civilization has reached such a high level of technology that it doesn't change barely at all, even over 4,000 years (KOTOR to Battle of Yavin) other than cosmetics and the occasional superweapon that someone churns out. They've plateaued in growth because they're so far along. Star Trek tech is still millenia behind theirs.

NOW, pull Star Wars tech back in time to when it was at the equivalent stage of development, and we might have a whole new story, because the two appear to have taken different paths up the technology tree. The Star Trek vessels have the edge in maneuverability and speed at impulse (see Star Trek VI and the Enterprise approach-at impulse-to Khitomer... it is a similar speed to the deceleration from hyperspace and assault on the Second Death Star in ROTJ, which is at the peak of SW tech), and so it would be much more evenly matched, with the Federation emerging victorious.

And if we're bringing other games and TV shows in, Babylon 5 would get pwned by either one.


Sharlin vs ISD. ISD gets oneshotted. B5 for teh win.
Whyatica
22-06-2006, 04:50
You MUST be joking about the B5 thing. The Minbari, for example (who I rp as), could oneshot any of the younger races and keep going. The only losses Minbar ever took to a younger race were when the humans destroyed TWO Sharlins in the first contact and the Battle of the Line. The Vorlons and Shadows both had planet killers that, in the Vorlon's case at least, was on the same scale as the DEATH STAR in a much smaller package.
Arrlia
22-06-2006, 05:14
You MUST be joking about the B5 thing. The Minbari, for example (who I rp as), could oneshot any of the younger races and keep going. The only losses Minbar ever took to a younger race were when the humans destroyed TWO Sharlins in the first contact and the Battle of the Line. The Vorlons and Shadows both had planet killers that, in the Vorlon's case at least, was on the same scale as the DEATH STAR in a much smaller package.

Yes, but the Vorlon and Shadow weapons didn't destroy the planets, they just obliterated the surface. Don't bring up that screenshot of the Vorlon ship near some asteroids... they can't be remnants of the planet, because Ivanova is talking about sending ships to pick up survivors in like the next few scenes. Sure, they're powerful and have organic tech, like Species 8427 or whatever it was, but a Shadow vessel versus, say, a Defiant- or Sovereign-class starship would be hard pressed to survive, let alone win. Same thing goes for if they go up against SW tech.

EDIT: "Nuke-Em" Sheridan was the only one to destroy Sharlins, and they were the Black Star and a couple smaller ones. None were lost at the Line. And none were destroyed in the initial engagement; they were damaged by a surprise attack that knocked out their sensors, re-enabling the Earthforce jump engines and letting them escape.

No comment on the main body of the post? I just threw that part in at the end... I love B5, too.
Otagia
22-06-2006, 05:33
ISDs can pull the same level of destruction as a Vorlon or Shadow PK in about an hour (well, more thorough). See Base Delta Zero.
Neo Zeta
22-06-2006, 06:36
SW and ST tech is not the end all be all of scifi tech i mean Stargate has more powerful races such as the Ori and Ancients even the Wraith might be able to do some major damage.

But as far as SW vs ST meh i say SW wins via is vast ability to outproduce their ships alone. The Empire rules a Galaxy and thus must have a crap load of ships while as i read somewhere the Federation only had 3 to 4k ships during the Dominion War and alot of them were ships brought back into service that were 30 years older or more.
Nebarri_Prime
22-06-2006, 06:42
Stargate suffers from lack of fleet power, more then anyone(earth with 2-4 ships) Goa'uld/Jaffa with there Ha'Tak fleet numbering only in the 100s. Asgard are always weak due to the Replicator wars. Ori are currently not to big with the fleet Ancients possibly, if not ascended(due to ascention rules rather then there power in that state) the Wraith as i know it have no shields on there ships and as such would get chewed apart(they also do not have exactly a large fleet)
Allied Providences
22-06-2006, 06:47
Ok I will end this debate.

THis is what would happen if the 2 universes somehow merged.'

Captain Pecard, a unknown ship is coming into sensor range.

Captain pecard Hail them.

On Screen comes a dark helmeted character; hello I am CAptain pecard of the USS Enterrrrr..... (Pecard chokes)

WHen the ship comes towards Earth tit opens fire and one of the main Planets (Earth) of the Federation is destroyed in one hit. Sorry but your Star Trek Technology is insiginifigant in comparision to the force and the death star.
Nova Boozia
22-06-2006, 07:13
I really wish people would stop assuming that every Starwars fleet has an attendant prophecised-with-unimaginable-power Jedi/Sith and a mk-2 Deathstar. I know we're talking about the universes merging and deploying all available resources here, but this is a general comment.
Allied Providences
22-06-2006, 07:22
I really wish people would stop assuming that every Starwars fleet has an attendant prophecised-with-unimaginable-power Jedi/Sith and a mk-2 Deathstar. I know we're talking about the universes merging and deploying all available resources here, but this is a general comment.

Well in the SW movies espeically in the republic times there were around 10,000 Jedi Knights and 2 sith Lords. Also in the time of the empire there were 2 death stars. SOrry to break it to you but you have to factor these in for the SW vs ST. If you wanna compare weapons you need to compare everything. ALso the federation soliders are not as experienced in warfare as a galaxy of troops that is constantly in a state of war since the fall of the old republic. I am sorry if you do not like these "fantasy facts" being added to the usual my turbo laser has (insert technobable) over your phaser with (insert technobable).
Nebarri_Prime
22-06-2006, 07:22
I really wish people would stop assuming that every Starwars fleet has an attendant prophecised-with-unimaginable-power Jedi/Sith and a mk-2 Deathstar. I know we're talking about the universes merging and deploying all available resources here, but this is a general comment.

doesn't matter if they have some super Jedi or a DS, SW still out classes ST
Allied Providences
22-06-2006, 07:33
doesn't matter if they have some super Jedi or a DS, SW still out classes ST

Very true... but to be fair the ST's universe has a lot more free thinkers that on a small scale conflict would be quite an advantage.
The bow man
22-06-2006, 07:37
i am going to throw my 2 cence in on this
if the federation could get an alliance with the borg and species 8472
there would be no chance of survival of any starwars person
cause the borg would assimlate most of there asses
and that special specie would just blow up all of there plannets like they were doing to the borg
so there
but we all know that would not happen with out the federation getting extermanted in the process
The bow man
22-06-2006, 07:40
Ok I will end this debate.

THis is what would happen if the 2 universes somehow merged.'

Captain Pecard, a unknown ship is coming into sensor range.

Captain pecard Hail them.

On Screen comes a dark helmeted character; hello I am CAptain pecard of the USS Enterrrrr..... (Pecard chokes)

WHen the ship comes towards Earth tit opens fire and one of the main Planets (Earth) of the Federation is destroyed in one hit. Sorry but your Star Trek Technology is insiginifigant in comparision to the force and the death star.

random box floting in space hails this unidentified ship
"you will be assimlated
your technological and biological distincitve ness (srry for spelling errors)
will be added to our own"
tractor beam is actavated
borg are sent over to ship
ship is assimlated
end of fucking story
Armedes
22-06-2006, 08:04
In the expanded Star Wars universe, cloaking devices are quite prevalent, if only one-shot deals.

On Star Wars' side, if you bring in the Borg and species 8472 (If they do unite) then you must bring in the Yuuzhan Vong.

On Star Trek's side, if you include the Jedi, you must also include the Betazoids, Organians, Trelane, and other extremely powerful telepathic-telekinetic beings. You must also include anaphasic beings, those nebula creatures that almost destroyed the Enterprise-D and other strange creatures with such powers.

Phasers have no capacitors, as on TV and the novels you very often see them use continuous beams to take down barricades and such. Blasters and other such nonsense from Star Wars DO have capacitors. Even the Death Star needs a long recharge time to fire again.

Again, on Star Trek's side, if you include the Death Star, Sun Crusher, (Planet Eater or something?), Darksaber and Eye of Palpatine and other such devices, you must also include the Argus Array, wormhole manipulation, V'Ger, the Genesis device, Thalaron radiation, Progenitor devices and other such exotic systems (I'm including Transwarp, the parralel universes and their technologies, so on and so forth).

There are so many unique points in both of these that if I could and/or would list every one, it would bore every single one here off the site. However, if we do use every single advantage each side has (and including ALL the Parallel universes' devices, ships and personnel too) the conclusion that Star Trek will win is inevitable. Please note that the Star Wars universe has nothing like it, the Yuuzhan Vong coming the closest (them being from a different galaxy).

Also, the Eye of Palpatine, Darksaber and the two Death Stars are too unweildy, slow and vulnerable to be truly effective. Sure, they could take out a few planets and a couple flagships, but one Thalaron radiation attack or one Romulan ship that self-destructs while in high warp with it's power souce still operating full blast would take them out easy. Sun Crusher would have a much better success rate, but can easily be destroyed by some ship transporting it's hull material away or transporting antimatter right onto the surface of the ship.

Of course, this is assuming that both sides have completely united all their respective factions and only use their own technologies.

If the two universes had their real systems of alliances and such, then yeah, the majority of the SW kingdoms would win the major conflict. The guerrilla movements put up by those in the conquered worlds would overthrow the government, in a long time though. Until, of course, the Borg come in.


However, this is silly. If you want a really interesting match, try having the DUNE universe go up against the Homeworld (game) one.
Nova Boozia
22-06-2006, 16:14
In reply to all comments about my last post, this is a general use thread for all spedific arguements to be deported to and for gripes like my own to be made. I wasn't commenting abouting the Feds or Imps, I was commenting on a pair of NS players pretending to be them, or at least using their tech.
New Dellia
22-06-2006, 17:36
Well in the SW movies espeically in the republic times there were around 10,000 Jedi Knights and 2 sith Lords. Also in the time of the empire there were 2 death stars. SOrry to break it to you but you have to factor these in for the SW vs ST. If you wanna compare weapons you need to compare everything. ALso the federation soliders are not as experienced in warfare as a galaxy of troops that is constantly in a state of war since the fall of the old republic. I am sorry if you do not like these "fantasy facts" being added to the usual my turbo laser has (insert technobable) over your phaser with (insert technobable).

Using Empire in specific:
1) No Jedi
2) No Death Stars (blew up in a couple years)
3) Star Trek still sucks at ground combat.
4) Both have too many wanks in their cannon to suit anybody.
5) Lensmen come in, eliminate the Sith after exposing them as puppet of Eddore, kick both the restored Republic and the Federation in the butts to get them to THINK properly and then go off to continue the war elsewhere.
Allied Providences
22-06-2006, 17:41
random box floting in space hails this unidentified ship
"you will be assimlated
your technological and biological distincitve ness (srry for spelling errors)
will be added to our own"
tractor beam is actavated
borg are sent over to ship
ship is assimlated
end of fucking story

Lol Wow again such faith in the Borg. Do you have any idea how long it would take the borg to assimlate a star destroyer which is bigger than the cube. Not too mention again, the jedi/sith. In the short series the clone wars Yoda was able to push 2 starships together and destroy them. In the Ying Su Vong invasion the gravity wells were turned on a moon to make an entire fleet crash into a planet. THe only real advantage Star Trek has over star wars is the Teleporter. Being able to move massive ammount of personal instantly is a huge advantage. Besides THe jedi would just force push an enitre army of borg off a cliff. Assimilate gravity...

Also assuming that the borg could get close to someone say Vader and assimlate him... oh no they are going to make him half man half machine... oh wait nevermind...
Allied Providences
22-06-2006, 17:42
Using Empire in specific:
1) No Jedi
2) No Death Stars (blew up in a couple years)
3) Star Trek still sucks at ground combat.
4) Both have too many wanks in their cannon to suit anybody.
5) Lensmen come in, eliminate the Sith after exposing them as puppet of Eddore, kick both the restored Republic and the Federation in the butts to get them to THINK properly and then go off to continue the war elsewhere.


1) No jedi I will agree but they did have 2 sith lords.

I was using the story as a whole, not speciific points inthe timeline. THe only way to be fair is to go after episode 6 which there is only one jedi left, before the jedi academy. Also though the EMpire in one of the novels divolped the Star Chaser a small ship capable of making a sun supernova. Wow this thread is proving my geekness
Nebarri_Prime
22-06-2006, 18:35
Lol Wow again such faith in the Borg. Do you have any idea how long it would take the borg to assimlate a star destroyer which is bigger than the cube

may i note that a Borg Cube is 3-4 Kilometers on each side, an ISD is only 1.6 Kilometers long, so unless this is an SSD of some type. i am sorry to say that this point you make is false data

gravity wells were turned on a moon to make an entire fleet crash into a planet.

GWs do not effect ST ships, this is a ST advantage over SW ships. depending on the situashon

Besides THe jedi would just force push an enitre army of borg off a cliff.

most Jedi do not have that kind of power....if they did then Sidious's plan would have cost many more clones to kill so many Jedi
Nebarri_Prime
22-06-2006, 18:36
1) No jedi I will agree but they did have 2 sith lords.

I was using the story as a whole, not speciific points inthe timeline. THe only way to be fair is to go after episode 6 which there is only one jedi left, before the jedi academy. Also though the EMpire in one of the novels divolped the Star Chaser a small ship capable of making a sun supernova. Wow this thread is proving my geekness

Star Chaser? you mean Sun Crusher don't you?
Eriburn
22-06-2006, 21:07
Okay, you've all overlooked one thing. It wouldn't be GE vs Federation. It would be GE vs RA vs Vong vs Black Sun vs Federation vs Borg vs Species 8472 vs Klingon Empire vs Romulans vs Cardassians vs Everyone else in the Universes/Existences.

The Result....Everyone dead.
Arrlia
22-06-2006, 21:15
Don't forget Q in all these equations!
The Ctan
22-06-2006, 21:25
Why are you cluttering up NS with this stuff? Or in any case, II. Doesn't this nonsense belong on SD.net or at the very least in General?
The Alien Covenant
23-06-2006, 00:51
Why are you cluttering up NS with this stuff? Or in any case, II. Doesn't this nonsense belong on SD.net or at the very least in General?

I think it should be a comparison for II. On the other hand, they didn't make it NSverse, they made it too general. And I still think other tech bases should be taken into consideration. For one thing ST is almost totally unused in mainstream RPs. For another, you can't simply compare 2 techbases without having everyone and his uncle toss in their two cents.

For example, I saw a fight with the two mechanical monstrosities of two universes in a thread recently. Who wins? Necrons or Borg? There's no doubt Borg are tough, but assimilating Necrodermis? Or even managing to kill something that stands up to the brute firepower of Adeptus Asartes oin a regular basis? How does one stop a Cairn from simply ramming into your cube? It's BIGGER than any cube, infinitely faster, and more heavily armed than any Trek design. EVER.

Compare Imp Guard to Stormtroopers. Both similarly armed, both cannon fodder. How does one compare the loyalty and fanatacism of the indoctrinated guard to the methods of the Stormtroopers? Which is more accurate? Who is the stronger and more determined? Can stormtrooper armor stop a lasgun, or bolter, or any of the other myriad weapons employed by the Guard?

I think alot of these things need to be worked out before an RP starts(this thread seems good for that), to prevent the arguments that are becoming more and more common among the FT RPing community in general.
Xessmithia
23-06-2006, 01:16
The correct answer is, of course, neither. It would be nearly impossible for ont to
defeat the other.

Incorrect. All non-Deus Ex ST races would fall to the Empire.

Trekkies are more agile,

Wide sweeping turns aren't what I call agile. Especially when ISDs and Mon Cal cruisers have been seen to have rapid angular acceleration in ESB when the ISD is struck by the Ion cannon blast and in ROTJ when the Rebel fleet turns to avoid the DS2's shield.

And no ST craft has demonstrated the agility of a TIE fighter.

even if Xess is right about their accel numbers, which I doubt.

Then I'll prove it.

In ROTJ we see the Imperial fleet approaching the Death Star deccelerate to a stop from a velocity of at least 60,000 m/s in 2 seconds of time.

a = v/t
a= 60,000/2
a= 30,000 m/s^2 or ~3000 Gs

Their forward linear acceleration should be the same if not greater than their deceletative ability. This is for ISDs, fighters are much faster.

Warsies are heavier, and harder to kill. An ISD against say, a squadron of Defiant style ships would turn into a massive dogfight, the Defiants unable to do effective damage to the ISD, and the ISD unable to effectively tag the Defiants, since turbolasers do not propogate at c,

The visible portion does not travel at c. The invisible damaging portion does according to the AOTC:ICS.

and Trektech is more maneuverable.

This is false.

The ISD would not hit.

Also false. You forget that the Defiant is still ~150 meters long and slower than TIE fighters. An ISDs light guns could easily score hits, and that's enough to destroy it with repeated hits.

The Trekkies would be hitting often, but doing nearly nothing.

Replace "nearly" with "absolutely" and that statement is correct.


On that note, throw a third tech into the mix, What about the UNSC or Covies? How would they compare to the bread and butter of FT?

UNSC lacks shields so would go down hard against SW but would own ST due to firepower.

Covenenant plasma torpedoes are gigaton range, ISD heavy turbolaser's are ~190 teratons. Covenant die.

Then come the Xelee and anal rape everyone present with their pistols that can blow up stars and Nightfighters that can take a Death Star blast.
Xessmithia
23-06-2006, 01:25
Phasers have no capacitors, as on TV and the novels you very often see them use continuous beams to take down barricades and such. Blasters and other such nonsense from Star Wars DO have capacitors. Even the Death Star needs a long recharge time to fire again.

The Death Star only requires a day to charge up a full power 1e38 Joule blast. It can charge up smaller blasts much faster.

Again, on Star Trek's side, if you include the Death Star, Sun Crusher, (Planet Eater or something?), Darksaber and Eye of Palpatine and other such devices, you must also include the Argus Array, wormhole manipulation, V'Ger, the Genesis device, Thalaron radiation, Progenitor devices and other such exotic systems (I'm including Transwarp, the parralel universes and their technologies, so on and so forth).

There's a difference between the Death Star and all other things mentioned. The Death Star is just common SW technology on a grand scale, everything else is a one off non-reproducable item.

Superlaser's have existed for a long time in SW, the ANH novelization has General Dodonna desribing the Death Star's as "The largest superlaser ever built", so it is not a unigue piece of tech so should be included.

There are so many unique points in both of these that if I could and/or would list every one, it would bore every single one here off the site. However, if we do use every single advantage each side has (and including ALL the Parallel universes' devices, ships and personnel too) the conclusion that Star Trek will win is inevitable.

And Star Wars also has the Hyperspace Aliens and other ancient powerfull races. We don't include every little thing because it becomes pointless.

Also, the Eye of Palpatine, Darksaber and the two Death Stars are too unweildy, slow and vulnerable to be truly effective. Sure, they could take out a few planets and a couple flagships, but one Thalaron radiation attack or one Romulan ship that self-destructs while in high warp with it's power souce still operating full blast would take them out easy.

Prove it.


Of course, this is assuming that both sides have completely united all their respective factions and only use their own technologies.

Which would never happen.

Until, of course, the Borg come in.

The Borg lose just as good as the Federation.
Central Facehuggeria
23-06-2006, 01:33
I personally think the two Halo races would beat either side, unless you accept the wanktastic numbers from SD.net.

There's two ways this can go: One way, you use the teraton-level SMAC calcs, which are utter bullshit since said SMACs don't consume many thousands of tons of fuel per shot (The equivelent of ~50 SMAC shells, by my calcs on SB.com, assuming D-T fusion like every other Halo reactor seems to use.) Unfortunately, this high end number is still significantly lower then SW's high end, and slightly lower then SW's canon figures for most ships.

The other way is you take the far more reasonable, low end Halo numbers, with a few gigatons for the SMAC platforms and around forty five kilotons for frigate and destroyer-size MACs. Needless to say that due to the SW movies as well as supporting material in SW's EU (specifically a quote from 'slave ship' that says gigatons of 'recoil' force, amongst other things), low gigatons are *low end* for turbolasers, which still handily puts them well above Halo's effective ship-ship yields in terms of firepower. (The Covenant have gigaton range torpedoes which they use for bombardment, however we don't know just how long it takes to charge them, and they don't seem to use these torpedoes in combat at all, seeing as how UNSC ships, which are implied to be highly vulnerable to kiloton level MACs, survive said plasma torpedoes.)

Either way, in terms of firepower, Halo is outclassed. In terms of FTL speed, Halo may or may not be outclassed. In terms of industry... Halo is *probably* outclassed, though not necessarily. However, on the ground is where it gets interesting. UNSC assault rifles may not be sufficient to penetrate stormie armor. However, they'll likely do damage through raw energy transfer, hurting the gun underneath the armor. Now, battlerifles are somewhat different. They, IIRC, fire a stupidly large 9.2x~54mm round, which will if nothing else, cause major bruises on a Stormie. Moving on, the Covenant's brute strength may be sufficient to carry the day against SW gunships and heavy armor, but I wouldn't bet on it. The Covenant tactics never really struck me as tactically sound. They were an equal match on the ground for the UNSC, despite the vast technological disparity between them. Obviously, the Covenant is doing something wrong during ground combat.

Note to Xess: We don't accept the wanktastic numbers from SD.net.

See, the funny thing is that the high numbers don't come from SDN. They come from Lucasarts' mouth, the veritable gospel truth for that franchise. Two hundred gigatons is the maximum yield for a medium turbolaser turret on an Acclamator troop transport. This is canon fact and cannot be disputed. Now, if you wish to throw that away for roleplay, that's fine. I've never met a person who stuck to canon SW in its entirety. However, claiming that, in general, 'Wankish numbers from SD.net' are not accepted, and then simply claiming victory is... incredibly fallacious, given that they come direct from canon sources. If you'd like, I can get out my AOTC:ICS and provide you with direct quotes on the matter of SW firepower, should you not believe me.

Trekkies snapped in half by a 600 ton Frigate MAC shell, ISDs melted and dripping from Covenant plasma strikes. Heck, one sliced open by the Sniper Weapon oughta be funny.

...Well, Trekkies being snapped in half by a MAC shell would be very amusing. And, depending on where you hit, accurate in the description. Unfortunately, ISDs will certainly not be melted by Covenant plasma strikes as easily as you seem to imply, unless taking the stupidly high end Halo calcs and also taking the absolute low end SW calcs, something that strikes me as rather dishonest.

I think the Telkjon Vagabond used beam(as opposed to bolt) weapons. It owned all over anything it encountered. Sure it got kinda trashed eventually, but it still was able to beat on anything it met. That means that beam type weapons are demonstrably more effective against ISDs than are bolt style attacks from TLs.

This fails to take into account the damage of said weapons. In fact, I've never heard of this "Telkjon Vagabond" ship before. What is it?

Oh, and to the guy quoting Portal: Fanfiction is not canon in any way, shape, or form, save for the Total Annihilation universe. If it was canon for SW versus ST, I could simply bring in Stardestroyers Rampant for a flawless victory. :P

...The sad part is that said story is probably what would happen if the GE and Federation ever got into a fight. :P

As for my opinion on techbase matters: I think it's better to make up your own stuff. This naturally takes effort, but the payoff is well worth it.
Smyles
23-06-2006, 01:40
Star Wars technology IS superior to Star Trek technology, but only because the franchises were created for different purposes. Star Trek was based on thought and realism, to solve problems intelligently and figure things out. Star Wars was made simply for eye candy and big battles, and though the Force is a load of crap, we'll pretend that's feasible and fits in with other physical laws, to keep all the fanboys happy. While Star Wars ships are definately, no doubt more powerful than anything in Star Trek, all the brilliant captains (Picard being my personal favorite) would definately outsmart the empire somehow. Defy that, and we might as well argue about the Force and wether it should be allowed in thie debate, and then we'll all argue about wether any of it is possible at all. Screw that.
Xessmithia
23-06-2006, 01:41
As for my opinion on techbase matters: I think it's better to make up your own stuff. This naturally takes effort, but the payoff is well worth it.

And how! I loves my tech.:D
Central Facehuggeria
23-06-2006, 01:52
Star Trek was based on thought and realism, to solve problems intelligently and figure things out.

"Captain! We've found a crack in the event horizon of this black hole!"

"Captain, now that you've gone to warp ten, you've turned into a salamander!" Both of those are from ST Voyager, and both of them are... let's just say... slightly unrealistic. Note that I am not even touching the notion of a 'temporal cold war' along with its alien space Nazis.

As for intelligent decisions, here's a rather paraphrased situation from the very debut of Voyager:
<Voyager has just been taken to the delta quadrant by the Caretaker array.>

Random sensor-operating ensign: "Captain, these Kazon raiders are coming, and they're going to use the Caretaker's array to enslave the poor hamster people!"

Janeway: "What? We must destroy the array, sacrificing our only way home!"

Ensign: "But Captain, we can use the array to get home!"

Janeway: "No, we must help those poor hamster people!"

And now, we must digress into speculation of what she should have done:

Ensign Facehugger: "Dumb bitch! Why don't you simply use the array to get home and leave a bloody timed bomb to blow up a few seconds after we go through? Or hell, if you're worried about the Kazon diffusing that bomb before it blows, leave someone there to set it off by hand! Their sacrifice will be remembered, along with Redshirt number 84721, who died to poisonus tribble bites on Tribble Four!"

And I'm not even getting into the stupidity of the TNG era with their no-military rhetoric and dustbuster phasers. Shitty design decisions still count as shitty decisions. :p

Intelligent decison making is not the purview of startrek.

all the brilliant captains (Picard being my personal favorite) would definately outsmart the empire somehow.

See, even if Picard outsmarted the Empire to a remarkable extent, it still wouldn't be enough to negate the fact that the Empire can wipe out the entire Federation with a single ISD and fuel ship.

Defy that, and we might as well argue about the Force and wether it should be allowed in thie debate, and then we'll all argue about wether any of it is possible at all. Screw that.

Who cares? The Force isn't the reason that SW will crush ST.
The Alien Covenant
23-06-2006, 01:55
Incorrect. All non-Deus Ex ST races would fall to the Empire.



Wide sweeping turns aren't what I call agile. Especially when ISDs and Mon Cal cruisers have been seen to have rapid angular acceleration in ESB when the ISD is struck by the Ion cannon blast and in ROTJ when the Rebel fleet turns to avoid the DS2's shield.

And no ST craft has demonstrated the agility of a TIE fighter.



Then I'll prove it.

In ROTJ we see the Imperial fleet approaching the Death Star deccelerate to a stop from a velocity of at least 60,000 m/s in 2 seconds of time.

a = v/t
a= 60,000/2
a= 30,000 m/s^2 or ~3000 Gs

Their forward linear acceleration should be the same if not greater than their deceletative ability. This is for ISDs, fighters are much faster.



The visible portion does not travel at c. The invisible damaging portion does according to the AOTC:ICS.



This is false.



Also false. You forget that the Defiant is still ~150 meters long and slower than TIE fighters. An ISDs light guns could easily score hits, and that's enough to destroy it with repeated hits.



Replace "nearly" with "absolutely" and that statement is correct.




UNSC lacks shields so would go down hard against SW but would own ST due to firepower.

Covenenant plasma torpedoes are gigaton range, ISD heavy turbolaser's are ~190 teratons. Covenant die.

Then come the Xelee and anal rape everyone present with their pistols that can blow up stars and Nightfighters that can take a Death Star blast.

Tell me, where exactly is it stated how fast the fleet is moving? What their EXACT speed is, or even a ballpark estimate? Show me a book statement or a movie quote that says how fast they were moving. Show me visual evidence from the ISDs speedometer. Prove to me you are right.

The invisible damaging portion. Do you even know how STUPID that sounds? May we look at all the screenshots where the bolt strikes and THEN the opponent is destroyed? The MUCH MORE NUMEROUS screen shots of the bolt hitting before destruction? Explain how that is reconciled by anything in a book, when there is NOTHING more impossible to argue away than movie images.

Can we examine your assesment of plasma torpedoes? Or even plasma turrets. It has been demonstrated that these ships can destroy a planet in minutes using only their primary batteries. Are you saying that an ISD is harder to kill than most planets? QUITE the wank there. Especially since it is directly controverted by evidence available in the movies.

What is the POINT of even arguing with you when you accept only those demonstrable facts that support your argument? Bah. You waste your time and the time of everyone here, wanking Star Wars into invulnerability. Have you no other recourse to win your battles? Can you not RP? Must you resort to "1 r \/\/4r513! 1 R 13373r 7|-|4/\/ j00!!!"? That is ALL you are doing, and it makes you look quite the fool.
Central Facehuggeria
23-06-2006, 02:05
Show me a book statement or a movie quote that says how fast they were moving.

The AOTC: ICS pegs Acclamator's maximum acceleration at 3500G. Which is a damn lot for anything like a large capital ship, but is understandable given the general power level of the rest of the SW universe.

The invisible damaging portion. Do you even know how STUPID that sounds? May we look at all the screenshots where the bolt strikes and THEN the opponent is destroyed? The MUCH MORE NUMEROUS screen shots of the bolt hitting before destruction? Explain how that is reconciled by anything in a book, when there is NOTHING more impossible to argue away than movie images.

The AOTC:ICS, page 1 has this to say on the matter: Energy Weapons
Energy weapons fire invisible beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less then lightspeed. Therefore, targets can explode instants before the "Bolt" actually arrives.

Also, I must point out that, given a choice between an explanation that tosses out evidence, and one that does not, the latter is always more preferable in terms of debate.

Can we examine your assesment of plasma torpedoes? Or even plasma turrets. It has been demonstrated that these ships can destroy a planet in minutes using only their primary batteries.

What? I've read all three Halo books. There is no implication that the Covenant can destroy a planet. They can 'glass' planets, but that puts them roughly equivelent to single ISDs, which can glass a planet within an hour.

Have you no other recourse to win your battles? Can you not RP? Must you resort to "1 r \/\/4r513! 1 R 13373r 7|-|4/\/ j00!!!"? That is ALL you are doing, and it makes you look quite the fool.

You do realize that Xessithima does not use SW tech in roleplay, right?
The Alien Covenant
23-06-2006, 02:18
There's two ways this can go: One way, you use the teraton-level SMAC calcs, which are utter bullshit since said SMACs don't consume many thousands of tons of fuel per shot (The equivelent of ~50 SMAC shells, by my calcs on SB.com, assuming D-T fusion like every other Halo reactor seems to use.) Unfortunately, this high end number is still significantly lower then SW's high end, and slightly lower then SW's canon figures for most ships.

The other way is you take the far more reasonable, low end Halo numbers, with a few gigatons for the SMAC platforms and around forty five kilotons for frigate and destroyer-size MACs. Needless to say that due to the SW movies as well as supporting material in SW's EU (specifically a quote from 'slave ship' that says gigatons of 'recoil' force, amongst other things), low gigatons are *low end* for turbolasers, which still handily puts them well above Halo's effective ship-ship yields in terms of firepower. (The Covenant have gigaton range torpedoes which they use for bombardment, however we don't know just how long it takes to charge them, and they don't seem to use these torpedoes in combat at all, seeing as how UNSC ships, which are implied to be highly vulnerable to kiloton level MACs, survive said plasma torpedoes.)

Either way, in terms of firepower, Halo is outclassed. In terms of FTL speed, Halo may or may not be outclassed. In terms of industry... Halo is *probably* outclassed, though not necessarily. However, on the ground is where it gets interesting. UNSC assault rifles may not be sufficient to penetrate stormie armor. However, they'll likely do damage through raw energy transfer, hurting the gun underneath the armor. Now, battlerifles are somewhat different. They, IIRC, fire a stupidly large 9.2x~54mm round, which will if nothing else, cause major bruises on a Stormie. Moving on, the Covenant's brute strength may be sufficient to carry the day against SW gunships and heavy armor, but I wouldn't bet on it. The Covenant tactics never really struck me as tactically sound. They were an equal match on the ground for the UNSC, despite the vast technological disparity between them. Obviously, the Covenant is doing something wrong during ground combat.



See, the funny thing is that the high numbers don't come from SDN. They come from Lucasarts' mouth, the veritable gospel truth for that franchise. Two hundred gigatons is the maximum yield for a medium turbolaser turret on an Acclamator troop transport. This is canon fact and cannot be disputed. Now, if you wish to throw that away for roleplay, that's fine. I've never met a person who stuck to canon SW in its entirety. However, claiming that, in general, 'Wankish numbers from SD.net' are not accepted, and then simply claiming victory is... incredibly fallacious, given that they come direct from canon sources. If you'd like, I can get out my AOTC:ICS and provide you with direct quotes on the matter of SW firepower, should you not believe me.



...Well, Trekkies being snapped in half by a MAC shell would be very amusing. And, depending on where you hit, accurate in the description. Unfortunately, ISDs will certainly not be melted by Covenant plasma strikes as easily as you seem to imply, unless taking the stupidly high end Halo calcs and also taking the absolute low end SW calcs, something that strikes me as rather dishonest.



This fails to take into account the damage of said weapons. In fact, I've never heard of this "Telkjon Vagabond" ship before. What is it?

Oh, and to the guy quoting Portal: Fanfiction is not canon in any way, shape, or form, save for the Total Annihilation universe. If it was canon for SW versus ST, I could simply bring in Stardestroyers Rampant for a flawless victory. :P

...The sad part is that said story is probably what would happen if the GE and Federation ever got into a fight. :P

As for my opinion on techbase matters: I think it's better to make up your own stuff. This naturally takes effort, but the payoff is well worth it.


Plasma torps are used in combat. It is stated that they can one shot UNSC ships(Fall of Reach and The Flood).

The numbers from the Acclamator Proto-ISD are founded in the same circular self abuse as the numbers on SDN. The numbers on SDN are derived from the Acclamartor which is derived from the same way that SDN claims to generate their wanktastic numbers, IIRC.

The Telkjon Vagabond(spelling may be off) is a ship found in one of the EU novels. Explored by Lando Calrissian, R2, and C3P0. It was more fowerful than an imperial warlords fleet, when the warlord attempted to intercept it, it destroyed several Interdictors, and an ISD(I think) before fleeing into Hyper once again. It was the genetic repository for an entire race, and was known to possess weapons powerful enough to utterly decimate anything that screwed with it. That is ABOUT all I remember. Not sure which EU series, or anything else for that matter.
Central Facehuggeria
23-06-2006, 02:28
Plasma torps are used in combat. It is stated that they can one shot UNSC ships(Fall of Reach and The Flood).

Of course plasma torpedoes are used in combat. However, when they're used in combat, they certainly are not gigaton level. The Pillar of Autumn at the end of TFoR takes one and keeps on going. The UNSC frigate which dropped the Spartans off to get their armor in the same book survived one, IIRC too. Or perhaps that was the Iroquois. I'm not quite sure. It's been awhile. :)

The numbers from the Acclamator Proto-ISD are founded in the same circular self abuse as the numbers on SDN.

Yeah? And? They come from Lucasarts' mouth. Canon. 100% true for their universe. Again, there's no problem not using them for roleplay, but if trying to compare both franchises, you can't really not use them if you want a remotely accurate result.

The numbers on SDN are derived from the Acclamartor which is derived from the same way that SDN claims to generate their wanktastic numbers, IIRC.

Nope. I've seen the lengths that Doctor Saxton went to in order to derive his calcs. They are not pulled from thin air in an attempt to uppower and 'wank' SW. You can check out the SWTC on TFN, and those will show you the methodology he used to get the calcs he did, though it won't show you the derivation IIRC. (It's been awhile since I've visited the Technical Commentaries.)

The Telkjon Vagabond(spelling may be off) is a ship found in one of the EU novels. Explored by Lando Calrissian, R2, and C3P0. It was more fowerful than an imperial warlords fleet, when the warlord attempted to intercept it, it destroyed several Interdictors, and an ISD(I think) before fleeing into Hyper once again. It was the genetic repository for an entire race, and was known to possess weapons powerful enough to utterly decimate anything that screwed with it. That is ABOUT all I remember. Not sure which EU series, or anything else for that matter.

I see. Interesting. So, how does a completely alien ship with totally unknown weapons yields have any relevance to Covenant weapons?
Xessmithia
23-06-2006, 02:30
Tell me, where exactly is it stated how fast the fleet is moving? What their EXACT speed is, or even a ballpark estimate? Show me a book statement or a movie quote that says how fast they were moving. Show me visual evidence from the ISDs speedometer. Prove to me you are right.

In the Endor shield bunker there is a data readout showing the Death Star and the Imperial Fleet. The ships are to scale with the Death Star so we can determine how far away they are and how fast they are travelling.

There are other incidences of high accelerations as well such as the rebel fighters flight around Yavin to the Death Star, Luke and companies escape before the Death Star explodes, the many times a ship goes from the ground to high orbit in seconds.

The invisible damaging portion. Do you even know how STUPID that sounds?

It doesn't sound stupid at all. It's a rational explanation for the observed evidence.

May we look at all the screenshots where the bolt strikes and THEN the opponent is destroyed? The MUCH MORE NUMEROUS screen shots of the bolt hitting before destruction? Explain how that is reconciled by anything in a book, when there is NOTHING more impossible to argue away than movie images.

Can be reconcilled with turbolaser's being a two stage process, first a low power aiming beam then a massive ramp up in energy. Thus we get an invisible c beam hitting the target and doing no damage but producing the bolt effect then the main damaging pulse synched up with the bolt effect. When the synch doesn't work we get the damage before bolt arrives.

Can we examine your assesment of plasma torpedoes? Or even plasma turrets. It has been demonstrated that these ships can destroy a planet in minutes using only their primary batteries.

Uh no. Covie ships can glass a planet using a fleet in a few hours. A single ISD can do the same.

Are you saying that an ISD is harder to kill than most planets?

Not at all, you're just overestimating the Covenant.

What is the POINT of even arguing with you when you accept only those demonstrable facts that support your argument?

I accept all facts. And when analyzed they come to same conclusion I have.

I used to actually be a hardcore "immune to lasers" Trekkie. Then I actually looked at the evidence and realized how stupid my former position was.
The Alien Covenant
23-06-2006, 02:34
The AOTC: ICS pegs Acclamator's maximum acceleration at 3500G. Which is a damn lot for anything like a large capital ship, but is understandable given the general power level of the rest of the SW universe.



The AOTC:ICS, page 1 has this to say on the matter:

Also, I must point out that, given a choice between an explanation that tosses out evidence, and one that does not, the latter is always more preferable in terms of debate.



What? I've read all three Halo books. There is no implication that the Covenant can destroy a planet. They can 'glass' planets, but that puts them roughly equivelent to single ISDs, which can glass a planet within an hour.



You do realize that Xessithima does not use SW tech in roleplay, right?

I was not aware of that. He seems so adamant about wanking SW into utter invulnerability that it was the logical choice.

People descibe the effect different ways. All I care about for "destruction" is if the planet is rendered uninhabitable. Since the Covies glass planets, and do it VERY quickly(less than a few hours), they must be more powerful in groups than any single "canon" ISD.

We're trying to derive realistic results from a fictional universe. Therefore anyuthing that does not fit the standard presented by the universe in question must be considered seperately. Since the standard for the SW uiniverse is DEMONSTRABLY that TLs do not move at c, barring a few mistakes on the part of the FX crew, then TLs must not move at c. There are preferable real world explanations. Would it make more sense for the movie crews to have made a few mistakes(QUITE likely), or for them to have planned for that, knowing questions would be asked, and that they would need answers(less likely)?

That assumes that the power level for the rest of the universe is accurate. Every figure, every number, every quote is based on PROVING the idea that SW is an extremely powerful universe. What if it really IS just as average as everyone says it is? What REASON would there be for weapons that can theoretically cause a nuclear winter in one strike? WHY would these things be this way? Is there any LOGIC to it being the way it is? Is bigger REALLY always better?
Xessmithia
23-06-2006, 02:35
The numbers from the Acclamator Proto-ISD are founded in the same circular self abuse as the numbers on SDN. The numbers on SDN are derived from the Acclamartor which is derived from the same way that SDN claims to generate their wanktastic numbers, IIRC.

Um...no.

The AOTC:ICS was written by Dr. Curtis Saxton referencing all the behind the scenese material and movies. It is canon and not based on SDN numbers no matter how much you wish it were true for your strawman attacks to work.

And in fact there were gigaton range weapons derived from sources before the AOTC:ICS came out. The Accalamator stats are derived from a carefull logical analysis of the Star Wars universe. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not true.
Central Facehuggeria
23-06-2006, 02:42
People descibe the effect different ways. All I care about for "destruction" is if the planet is rendered uninhabitable.

I see. In the future, remember there is a very, very big difference between rendering uninhabitable and outright destroying ala the Death Star. The former can be done with lots of megaton level weapons. The latter requires lots of Yottaton level weapons. :p

Since the Covies glass planets, and do it VERY quickly(less than a few hours), they must be more powerful in groups than any single "canon" ISD.

The Covies can glass a planet within a day for a single fleet. ISDs can do the same within an hour or two.

We're trying to derive realistic results from a fictional universe. Therefore anyuthing that does not fit the standard presented by the universe in question must be considered seperately.

Not the case. Conflicting evidence must be rationalized.

Since the standard for the SW uiniverse is DEMONSTRABLY that TLs do not move at c, barring a few mistakes on the part of the FX crew, then TLs must not move at c.

In universe, you should not use 'FX mistakes' as an excuse to handwave away what we see. It breaks the whole concept of suspension of disbelief, as it relates to versus debates.

That assumes that the power level for the rest of the universe is accurate.

What, you're questioning all of SW canon now? On what basis? Your own opinion?

Every figure, every number, every quote is based on PROVING the idea that SW is an extremely powerful universe.

When every quote and number derived thus far proves that SW is extremely powerful, it is logical to believe that SW is indeed extremely powerful. Unless you think this is all a huge conspiracy by the Warsies? :p

What REASON would there be for weapons that can theoretically cause a nuclear winter in one strike?

The explanation is that SW has very powerful planetary and theater shields, such that a planet can resist bombardment from a whole fleet for weeks. Thus, planets would not be nearly as vulnerable as in another, shieldless universe. This is also one of the reasons for the DS superlaser, by the way. Destroying planets behind planetary shields.

Is bigger REALLY always better?

Naturally. If you can put more hurt upon your opponent then they can to you, isn't this a good thing in a war?
The Alien Covenant
23-06-2006, 03:03
I see. In the future, remember there is a very, very big difference between rendering uninhabitable and outright destroying ala the Death Star. The former can be done with lots of megaton level weapons. The latter requires lots of Yottaton level weapons. :p



The Covies can glass a planet within a day for a single fleet. ISDs can do the same within an hour or two.



Not the case. Conflicting evidence must be rationalized.



In universe, you should not use 'FX mistakes' as an excuse to handwave away what we see. It breaks the whole concept of suspension of disbelief, as it relates to versus debates.



What, you're questioning all of SW canon now? On what basis? Your own opinion?



When every quote and number derived thus far proves that SW is extremely powerful, it is logical to believe that SW is indeed extremely powerful. Unless you think this is all a huge conspiracy by the Warsies? :p



The explanation is that SW has very powerful planetary and theater shields, such that a planet can resist bombardment from a whole fleet for weeks. Thus, planets would not be nearly as vulnerable as in another, shieldless universe. This is also one of the reasons for the DS superlaser, by the way. Destroying planets behind planetary shields.



Naturally. If you can put more hurt upon your opponent then they can to you, isn't this a good thing in a war?

But why do those shields exist? Consider a realistic example: armor. The weapon has always outstripped the defense. That means TLs were that powerful BEFORE the shields existed(assumingh everything progresses in SW as it does here). Meaning that for SOME reason SOMEONE decided to make a gun that can make a planet turn into an iceball with one good hit, and no effective response other than getting a bigger iceball gun. WHERE is the logic in that? I don't see much. SW simply DOES NOT make sense. How can you effectively debate something that has so many gaps in its reasoning? What manner is there for arguing a point that is simply ignored based on the fact that "He said so."? How do you know Saxton isn't talking out his ass? How do you know that Lucasarts didn't simply say "I like the sound of that number. Let's use it." Past evidence supports that theory, specifically the rather infamous Han Solo quote.

I'm tired of arguing the constant SW is 1337 arguments, where no one on either side wants to accept that they might be wrong. Sure, I might be wrong about the Covies, I might be wrong about an ISD, I might be wrong about these things, but so far I have yet to see any evidence that sufficiently and logically explains my issues.

What is the standard engagement range as viewed in the movies? I want to say it's kilometer ranges. Like, in the low to mid hundreds of them. That means that if a TLs damaging portion travels at c, then it would ALWAYS show damage before the bolt itself would register impact. Since it does not, what is the reason? The bolts are visibly slow, and more often than not, that is when damage is showed. That would lead one o believe that the bolt carries the damage, and does not travel at c.
Central Facehuggeria
23-06-2006, 03:46
But why do those shields exist? Consider a realistic example: armor. The weapon has always outstripped the defense. That means TLs were that powerful BEFORE the shields existed(assumingh everything progresses in SW as it does here).

That is a rather faulty assumption. SW does not have to follow the RL weapons outpacing defenses paradigm. Indeed, the presence of planetary shields helps to disprove that assumption.

Here's a counter example: The Boloverse. This is a series of books, originally by Keith Laumer, which feature monstrously large AI controlled supertanks, with the larger marks taking and dishing out megaton level weapons blasts. Now, in the RL development paradigm, a Bolo is a total waste of money. It's nuke fodder, and a big target. However, the Boloverse followed a different paradigm. Its defensive technologies (including point defense and battleshields) vastly outstripped its offenses, such that even grotesquely large strategic weapons can't one shot a Bolo, suddenly making them a lot more viable as opposed to before.

SW simply DOES NOT make sense.

Sure it does. You've just got to think everything through.

How do you know that Lucasarts didn't simply say "I like the sound of that number. Let's use it."

Because, as I've said, Doctor Saxon did research on these numbers, which you can see if you visit the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, hosted on TFN.

Past evidence supports that theory, specifically the rather infamous Han Solo quote.

The Kessel run is absolutely fraught with black holes. Making such a run in twelve parsecs likely means that Han had to get close to more then one black hole, and survive. -Easily something to brag about.

What is the standard engagement range as viewed in the movies?

Hundreds of kilometers in ROTJ. ROTS was an outlier given that they were all stuck under the planetary shield and couldn't get any further away.

That means that if a TLs damaging portion travels at c, then it would ALWAYS show damage before the bolt itself would register impact. Since it does not, what is the reason? The bolts are visibly slow, and more often than not, that is when damage is showed. That would lead one o believe that the bolt carries the damage, and does not travel at c.

Reread the theory. The beam synchs up with the bolt, which functions as a glowing tracer. In essence, the beam won't start firing until the bolt is about to hit the target. Though sometimes mistakes do occur, which results in damage being inflicted before the tracer has hit.
The bow man
23-06-2006, 07:12
Lol Wow again such faith in the Borg. Do you have any idea how long it would take the borg to assimlate a star destroyer which is bigger than the cube. Not too mention again, the jedi/sith. In the short series the clone wars Yoda was able to push 2 starships together and destroy them. In the Ying Su Vong invasion the gravity wells were turned on a moon to make an entire fleet crash into a planet. THe only real advantage Star Trek has over star wars is the Teleporter. Being able to move massive ammount of personal instantly is a huge advantage. Besides THe jedi would just force push an enitre army of borg off a cliff. Assimilate gravity...

Also assuming that the borg could get close to someone say Vader and assimlate him... oh no they are going to make him half man half machine... oh wait nevermind...
in regard to the yoda coment
that is a lode of bull shit and i can smell it from here
wholy shit that stinks
and the stupid cartoon never really counted as far as i am concerned
The bow man
23-06-2006, 07:15
anyways i am in way over my head here
but we should be able to agree
that the show are both cool
and intresting to watch
but you guys have said stuff i have never herd of
so i will leave this lil debate
and go some where else
Hydac
23-06-2006, 07:36
in regard to the yoda coment
that is a lode of bull shit and i can smell it from here
wholy shit that stinks
and the stupid cartoon never really counted as far as i am concerned

Except your opinions of canon are irrelevant, I'm not sure where the Clone Wars cartoons fall, but you can't just discount them because you want to.