NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC ramblings connected to mighty and noble Yugoslavia's grudging invasion (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485171) of the evil and scheming Austria ;)

Switched from the IC thread:

I'm a little nervous about the level of Austria's military capability. Reverse engineering Eurofighters, and putting them into Austrian service? Wouldn't that be a lossmaker in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars? There seems to be about 3% of the Austrian population already committed as mobile ground forces, too. Obviously that many, or maybe even more, could be conscripted in such a dire national emergency (such as this may be regarded), but armed and mechanised during the time that the nation's actually being attacked? I don't know, I might just be using too little myself, I suppose. That they have hundreds of cutting-edge AVs does make me think that something's up with one of us, next to my four-times-larger nation's hundreds of not-so cutting edge machines, when we've actually been preparing for war by mechanising a force that contains less than one percent of our populace.

Am I worrying too much? It's just that a surprised nation of 8.1ish million people, without standing foreign support, having hundreds of Leopard 2, PzH 2000, domestic GPS-guided munitions, and reverse-engineered Eurofighters, and the ability to mechanise hundreds of thousands of troops makes me wonder about Yugoslavia's few hundred T-72 derivatives and few tens of thousands of mobile infantry!

Austria should have 114 Leopard 2A4s from the 'real world', so that might be ok - I don't know how many he claims he has currently. And the ASCOD IFV is a joint Spanish-Austrian project, which is more or less cutting edge for an IFV, which is designed to replace the Saurer SPZ A1 in Austria and the M113 in Spain. I don't know too much about the roleplay to really offer suggestions, but I would understand if Austria had a small mechanised force to slow down the 'Yugoslavian hordes', which I would venture to guess would follow Soviet doctrine - which might give it enough time for the Holy League to respond in numbers.

And, is Russia going to remain neutral with this Yugoslavia thing?

See other post- I'll keep the OOC over here from now on.

Yeah, quite all right, I only just made this OOC thread.


Anyway, yeah, I certainly don't deny that Austria can have cutting-edge equipment, but I think that I count 750 Leopard II deployed already, plus hundreds of other tanks? Then hundreds of possibly the world's best self-propelled gun.

If it is possible for Austria to support this sort of force, and the mechanisation of hundreds of thousands, it seems that they weren't in the mindset to be making such epic investments: "Austria was in no means on a war footing, war was the least forthcoming thought in anyone’s heads right up till the invasion was made known. Austrian factories still produced their luxury and sport models, electronic firms were still making little gadgets to be sold over the summer heat when everybody was glad to go inside, even the government was slightly laid back as now most of the work over the new Austrian colonies was done as well as the Holy League"

I suppose that if it is possible to support all that, and it was done so casually, at least I must boost what Yugoslavia has, since we'd not have sat around while our neighbour built forces more in line with eighty million Germans than eight million Austrians. Not being hostile, just need to see which way we're going to play it.

Not even Spain yas 750 Leopard 2s... yet. :P

Really? Well I would presume it would be easy for you to have them because The Dutch and Turks have them, buy a couple and then rebuild them faster and better.

Would it be better to have around 10% of my POP in the military but only 5% mechanized and the rest reservists, I still think I put way to many men in the airforce so I can just lay off some of those guys.

Spain produces its own Leopard 2Es, which are at this point, some of the most armoured tanks in the world - even more so than the M1A2 Abrams and the Challenger II - at least in the front. I only have around 319 right now [100 more than they do in real life], and Spain has around 108 Leopard 2A4s, as well.

Yes, but Turkey (in reality, not in AMW) has a civil war, a major war on its border, and so on, and bought about three hundred used Leopard 2s, and has seventy million people. Austria has eight million people, and was reputedly not thinking about war.

Now, it would be theoretically possible to get 10% of your population into the military if we consider that nations did it in WWI. However, a lot of them did it by bringing women into the workplace, where they had not previously been: today, women are already there, so taking men out means replacing them with nobody, and dealing a proportionally more serious blow, unless I'm much mistaken? Of course, health may be better today, enabling more men to be accepted for service, though that ignores issues such as obesity, which I'm sure must -in a capitalist society like Austria's- render a notable percentage unfit for physical duties (in fact I believe that nearly ten percent of the population is morbidly obese, in reality, and I can't help suspecting that it may be worse, here).

Anyway, that may sound like nitpicking, so I'll move on to say that if nothing else it certainly will take time.

If you're a small country not expecting war and you have your army of thousands or tens of thousands, and then war beaks out and is fought in your home territory, you'll presumably get a lot of volunteers right away. But you don't necessarily have anything to arm hundreds of thousands of people, do you? Granted, Yugoslavia has AK or SKS clones to arm its massive uniformed reserves, which most nations don't, but even we don't have modern armour and artillery enough to match the scale of a reserve mobilisation.

More importantly, even if it takes days to raise the men and however much time to equip them, they still need at least some training. I don't know if Austria can really do much more than put a few tens of thousands of pre-war soldiers against the YPA in an effort to delay us as Mac suggests. Even if you sign a guy up, tell him he's in the Xth Y Division, and make a uniform, gun and some ammo for him, and stick him on a bus painted green, he's still going to wet himself and end up killed/captured/AWOL when he and his workmates are stuck in a tank or shot at by one, isn't he?

Ah, I don't know how long it'd take to mobilise 10% of Austria's population, particularly how long it'd take to equip them, and train them, so maybe I should just stop before I say something really stupid, and hope for some input from other players!

It seems that Austria is very militarised, and has a lot of weaponry

and they only have 8 million

Just my opinion, I realize it may not count as much cuz I just joined, but I thought I might as well post 'em

Indeed, Moorington's level of militarization does seem rather considerably on the excessive side. Seven hundred Leopard 2s, plus two thousand ASCODs...

It is, to me, highly doubtful that Austria has the industrial capacity to handle the construction of hundreds of first-rate MBTs and thousands of first-rate APCs, especially when military equipment wasn't a priority until perhaps a week ago.

And having a tenth of the population employed as soldiers at this stage...wouldn't that send industry into shock, more or less, if its being done all at once like that, and prevent the volume of materiel Austria is claiming to have even been built?

Either Yugoslavia should boost his numbers or Austria's should be reduced.

Doesn't Germany build Austria's Leopard 2A4s?

And having a tenth of the population employed as soldiers at this stage...wouldn't that send industry into shock, more or less, if its being done all at once like that, and prevent the volume of materiel Austria is claiming to have even been built?


His economy would prbly lose at lot (if everyone was called up immediately) and if not, the military would start to run out of equipment, as such a sock to the economy would slow it down, reducing the number of armaments available for replentishment

OOC: What country is Retarded Robots?

The Indian Union. Yep, Yugo Slavia and Mac' are right about Turkey. Just a word though...this is in RL. In AMW, the Ottomans couldn't afford one Leopard 2. ;)

The Indian Union. Yep, Yugo Slavia and Mac' are right about Turkey. Just a word though...this is in RL. In AMW, the Ottomans couldn't afford one Leopard 2. ;)
OOC: and you are?

The Ottoman Empire.

Mmmhhhm...honestly, with China attacking me through Depkazia I can ill afford it, but I owe it to the Austrians for dragging them into the League. Russian forces are...in a tight spot, eh?

To the very least maybe Russia can clarify its position to Spain, which is looking for news from Russia to decide whether or not to deploy personnel to Switzerland and Italy, in case a new defense line has to be built in western Austria.

Well that settles it, I guess then I am reducing my numbers to more affordable levels. Cut the airforce by about 2/3rds, ersae a lot fo that armor, and much more of the mechanized outfits, anything else? I would guess that cuts it down to about 6% and then 2% already in the field with 2% in reserve and the other 1% airforce.

now that Austria is in the HL, this war gonna get nasty

Well cut down the Leopards to 150 (+35, and changing it from making to buying them from Germany), the Dpkz I's are pretty much light tanks that have a 80 milimeter gun and light armor. Enough to take on infantry and lighter vehicles but usually not enough to take on other tanks.

The 2000's are down also, as I am changing ot having them bought instead of made in Austria.

Well cut down the Leopards to 150 (+35, and changing it from making to buying them from Germany), the Dpkz I's are pretty much light tanks that have a 80 milimeter gun and light armor. Enough to take on infantry and lighter vehicles but usually not enough to take on other tanks.

The 2000's are down also, as I am changing ot having them bought instead of made in Austria.


Spain will also begin exportation of some of their Leopard 2Es to Austria - we can expect around 500 per month; some for replacement, others for new armoured divisions, and the rest for export to our allied nations. The Leopard 2E is superior to the Leopard 2A6, fortunately.

Spain will also begin exportation of some of their Leopard 2Es to Austria - we can expect around 500 per month; some for replacement, others for new armoured divisions, and the rest for export to our allied nations. The Leopard 2E is superior to the Leopard 2A6, fortunately.

Austria would happily accept that, is not the 2E version more protected than the A6 model? That I am sure of but is there any other small modifications that you have made to improve the overall quality.

Austria would happily accept that, is not the 2E version more protected than the A6 model? That I am sure of but is there any other small modifications that you have made to improve the overall quality.

It includes an appliqué armour on the front turret that increases the protection of that area - the electronics are also Spanish, most likely do the fact that it would have cost a lot more money to go to each specific subcontractor in Germany to purchase original electronics.

All right then, I'll continue as planned instead of upgrading everything on the spot.

However, there's still some question about army size vs. time elapsed, I think.

Yugoslavia, being based in no small part on the real thing and having been formed in a climate of very real fear over France and Russia, is -as it was in reality- one of the most militarised nations going. Specifically in respect of its total national defence policy. Defence in depth involves massive reserve, territorial, and militia forces that most nations simply don't bother with.

With just shy of 31 million people, Yugoslavia's military is as such:

182,000 YPA regulars including 70,000 volunteers and 112,000 conscripts.
This has a large mechanised element, but is not entirely mechanised. It is organised into relatively modern and flexible brigades, and the volunteer brigades are mobile and well supported, trained, and motivated by socialism and a new drive to Slavic unity and national glory. The conscript brigades are not to be sneezed at, but could reasonably said to be a bit stuck in the cold war, technologically speaking.

Now that's already a big army. If Austria, not expecting war, being uber-capitalist, unafraid of the Holy League, can be expected to have had a modern volunteer army, I would be surprised if it were even as large as the volunteer element in our army. Would it not be likely to have less than fifty thousand personnel? In reality, during the Cold War, neutral-ish Austria had only 15,000 ready forces backed by short-term conscripts and reserves for 200,000 total personnel, I think in all branches. In reality, after the Cold War, they cut that to 10,000 ready and 120,000 including inactive resrves and what not, I gather.

Sorry, it's not for me to tell others how to run their countries, I'm just trying to provide context.

Yugoslavia then has 575,000 Army Trained Reserve Forces.
These activated only after we launched the assault on Austria, and elements started moving up through Slovenia and arriving on the front after our advances stalled outside Klagenfurt and Graz. The ATR tends to have 1980s equipment supported by stuff from as far back as the '60s and some as recent as the '90s. It is partially mechanised, but armoured vehicles are less significant than soft-skin trucks at this level, and much of the ATR is unfortunately straight-leg. Still, it's a large pool that ups the YPA to three quarters of a million in relatively quick time.

That's the equivalent to whatever reserve forces Austria has, which I would be surprised to see more than one or possibly two hundred thousand strong.

Next is the Territorial Defence Forces, which have elements in each Socialist Republic within the Federation. This is said to be 1,200,000 strong, but that figure actually only represents people in reasonably regular training. Possibly three or even four million people are on the books and armaments exist for them, but most don't have any particular obligations to train or mobilise unless we're actually invaded. The TDFs have manouverable battalion-size elements tasked with partisan action and spatial elements of company size tasked with defence of key locations and protection of civilians. The TDF is not an offensive force and won't be seen in Austria, but it will meet the Spanish or other HL forces if they launch an assault on the SFRY, and it frees up most of the YPA and reserves to be deployed to Austria. The TDF's trained element of course provides some pool from which to draw conscripts in time of war.

Most nations, of course, have no equivalent to the TDF, and normally only Dra-pol and arguably the Soviets have more men under arms.

The thing is, our army is large, the reserves are large, and we have the trained element of the TDF from which to raise more recruits.

Austria, if it's anything like I'd have imagined, lacks the pool of trained men. It surely should have met us with its small ready forces, slowing us down at the two fronts mentioned, then sent in its reserves to bring its numbers up close to those of the YPA regulars, and then, as we send in the ATR, Austria is pouring volunteers/conscripts into basic training, and trying desperately to produce guns and equipment for them, from scratch.

Is this not a fair assessment? I know it seems to give Austria precious little chance, but is that wrong, given the situation?

Yugoslavia's air force has 42,000 personnel (5,000 conscript), the Naval Forces 13,000 (5,000 conscripts), and the Militia Troops (internal heavy security police) 18,000 personnel.

(Now I feel bad and have to add that even if Yugoslavia wins totally before the HL can get involved, I'm not planning to annex Austria to the SFRY and tell Moorington to hop it and get a new nation. Our aim actually is to get rid of the current government, draw up a new constitution to make sure that the League can't get a foothold, limit militarisation, and maybe introduce a couple of token new labour laws and such, and perhaps over-see the election or imposition of a government that's prepared to work with Yugoslavia on good terms. I'm certainly not trying to take the running of Moorington's nation away from him.)

(OOC: Well, you neglect two factors: One, Russia has a massive cruise missile and air strike capacity that it can unleash to delay you, and secondly, Austria could potentially have a larger volunteer base than in RL due to the fact that it had already had tensions with you over its aborted Czech annexation attempt and the worsening situation in Europe. Macabees, Russia will definitely intervene---on Friday, I promise.)

This is an ooc thread, no need to indicate it in an individual post ;)


Yes, Russia could launch attacks on Yugoslavia, but that doesn't change Austria's capacities one hundred trillionth of a percent, so, eh, yeah.

And all reference to low-levels of Austrian militarisation are based on things that Austria has said.

I don't really care about how many volunteers are available, since that doesn't change anything. Large numbers of willing volunteers are expected whatever the prior conditions, but, again, that doesn't change anything I've put forward.

Did we even have a Cold War -as in AMW-?

Anyhow, that is beside the point. I think Armadian Cheese put it quite nicely -if short-. Austria is not the Austria which we know today, today's Austria is still afraid to say booh to a couple of drug dealers from Africa much less any real country -okay, maybe not that bad but not to far either-.

Austria as you know it -AMW style- is a industrial nation and a devote capitalist -it has a third more GDP than RL Austria- with a fiearce nationlist government in charge of the parliament and the chancellory who has just recently risen to Monarch with the firm approval of the populance. The military as AMW knows it would happily walk over RL Austria because of recent militerizing for the now defunct Sudentland project/idea/invasion and the idea for an Austrian polynesia in Africa.

Now there is some gray areas most especially called Germany, if the few sentences I got from the latest German player we're anything to go by Germany was not planning to totally cut off diplomatic and economic ties; which of course means the ability to buy the heavy artillery and tanks from Germany. Yet at the same time it is hard to discuss buying and selling tanks with yourself and it could be said that buying vehicles -especially good ones- in large quantities from NPC nations is abusing them. For no one is going to let the NPC nation get the better deal.

Regardless I only bought a pitiance of Leopard 2's from Germany not specified in RL and quite a few but not in-humanly so of Pwk 2000's. Now I am not going to need to buy Leopard 2's anyhow and the Pwk's are never going to be bought in such a large quantity again. While spare parts I would presume could be made locally -in Austria-.

Now you got me rambling again, oh well. Regardless the military of Austria is under 10% -I need to do some more calculating to get it all right again- of the populance which compared to more nationlist countries is quite low. For me to say for the last month the capitalist and industrial powerhouse of Austria guided by nationlists who has been throwing her weight around -Sao Tome and Principe, Sudentland, Mauritas- to suddenly have force of just 10,000 to 20,000 avaliable could almost make me a god modder.

Yes, we had a cold war, though along with the US, Roycelandia was a key opponent to the USSR.

Oh, I don't dispute your revised numbers of bought equipment, I accept that Austria is wealthy and has buying power (more than we do), it's just the ready manpower over which I have some reservations.

10% is not low by anyone's standards, it's more than twice the level of the most militarised nation in the world.

We could do with establishing numbers/percentages for Austria's pre-war standing army and its reserves.

Most nations akin to AMW's Austria would have substantially less than one percent of their population in the entire military, and quite likely less than half a percent. They may typically have reserves from virtually nothing up to maybe two or something percent.*

The thing is that after that, lots of time is needed to raise men, put them through training, build weapons and equipment for them, organise them, and deploy them. I'm sure you're looking at weeks, months, in some cases years (possibly the latter's more the case in larger or desperately poor nations).

*Anyway, all I'm saying is that this is why I've been a little surprised. That doesn't have to be how AMW Austria is set up, but that's what I'd have realistically expected from a nation of the sort.

Austria, he's right. 10% is an obscenely large amount of militarization; you'd have to ruin your nation's economy to make it work, and starve your people. Dra-Pol is a hell hole and it still has less than 10%. A realistic pre-war number would be at 1% volunteers (still a bit extreme---Russia only has 0.5%), and in terms of time you could perhaps mobilize another 1-2% in short term, although, again, that's pushing it.

Additionally, any arms the Austrians may desire may be purchased at low prices from Russia.

I have an issue with the size of the territorial defense force. How large is it, exactly, and how much of a percentage of the population does it consume? Four million seems extremely high...

Finally, I have the issue of Romania. To launch air strikes against Austria, I would need to go over Romanian air space---would the Romanians allow it? On one hand they're not likely to be friendly with Russia due to the fact that we annexed Moldova, on the other hand, it's not likely that they want to get thrown into this gigantic conflagration we call "World War III".

Even 1% is high, especially if it were a volunteer force. Cold war powers, generally, I think, didn't quite go to 1% even when they had conscription.

The TDF is based on the real one, and with the incorporation of Bulgaria is slightly smaller than it would have been in reality if the SFRY's population had been that much higher. It is, somewhat ironically, the entity that enabled the dismantling of the SFRY, as Slovenian TDF units started shooting at the YPA and downed one of their helicopters.

Romania, I don't know. I have wanted to represent Yugoslavia as friendly to Romania, and a friend against the possibility of Russian invasion- I think that Bucharest is less than happy about what happened in Moldova, and between them Yugoslavia and Romania could do enough to make Russian invasion of Romania a disaster. But Romania is done with Ceauşescu and our socialist enthusiasm isn't likely to be inducing the same level of economic and military co-operation as it had between pre-Yugoslav states and Romania.

Anyway, it's Slovakia and/or Hungary that gets between Ukraine and Austria. Romania gets between you and Yugoslavia.

Austria, he's right. 10% is pushing it.

Don't worry, I revised the disposition of my forces -especially the air arm- and the army number from my first post has yet to be revised to reflect the actual forces which were tuned down also. (Example: third force was 100,000 no its 47,000)


Additionally, any arms the Austrians may desire may be purchased at low prices from Russia.

Actually oil is the number one resource which is needed in any high regard, rationing has taken place throughout Austria and the latest offensive may yet not accomplish anything if fuel supplies finally run dry.


I have an issue with the size of the territorial defense force. How large is it, exactly, and how much of a percentage of the population does it consume? Four million seems extremely high...

Unless they have inadequate training and only light arms, and probably a couple are a little to young or to old to be really effective in combat. I have never been a fan to send my people to the butcher but that seems the best -and only task- which that force seems suited to do.

Unless I'm totally wrong and their a step below regulars and are equiped with the best arms in Yugoslavia with excellent training, but I highly doubt the former.


Finally, I have the issue of Romania. To launch air strikes against Austria, I would need to go over Romanian air space---would the Romanians allow it? On one hand they're not likely to be friendly with Russia due to the fact that we annexed Moldova, on the other hand, it's not likely that they want to get thrown into this gigantic conflagration we call "World War III".

I don't recall what the boundries of Tsarsist Russia is, does it include Poland and/or Ukraine? Anyhow, you could probably get some kind of arrangement the Czech Republic of Slovakia, Austrian air bases would happily assist in refueling planes if needed.

Well, given the situation what is Romania really going to say? You have a huge Russian behemoth crawling towards their border, and they're going to say no? Images of Romania during the Second World War come to mind, where they first allowed the Germans to base operations from Romania, and even lent their own divisions, and when the Red Army began to seep in for the second time [their May 1944 offensive in Romania was a fiasco] the Romanians quickly signed a peace, told the Germans to get out, and lent men for the final invasion of Germany. Romania, throughout history, has not been on the strongest, and has not lent itself towards establishing an image of unity, a big backbone, and resistance. In other words, I really think Romania would just let you through.

I'm rather inclined to say that Romania wouldn't want bombers from mass-murdering loons flying over its cities, and would say no until there's actually moves to indicate that Romania herself will be attacked for defiance. And, frankly, Russia is in no position to be starting extra wars on its borders while Depkazia turns to civil war and China, Japan, and Lyong peer across eastern borders. But I'm no expert on modern Romania.

Of course there is. Whether it has to go through Romania or not, it will at some point have to land large amounts of ground personnel to push Yugoslavia back across the border, and possibly crush it. Whether Romania is part of the crushing or not, it will still have those personnel deployed, meaning Romania, in or out of the picture, is irrelevent to the amount of personnel he will have deployed in the European theater, making the Chinese and Japanese threat no larger or no smaller. And to be frank, I don't think Romania is inclined to putting up resistance because I would venture to guess that they feel it's pretty obvious that opposing Russia at this point is opposing the Holy League - putting it, in other words, into the hands of everyone else. Not to be frank, but 'everyone else' does not really have a strong position right now, especially in Europe, where they have faced two defeats already. Romania has showed itself prone throughout modern history to simply buckle under the pressure of the biggest dog on the continent - first Germany, then the Soviet Union. I really am not under the impression that Romania would risk loosing its armed forces .

Additionally, I really don't think governments, at this point, really care if the bombers are 'mass-mudering loons', for the mere fact that governments have really [i]never cared. I don't think the world is so inclined towards the humanitarian perspective of the war, given that even the great humanitarian nations, such as the United Kingdom and the United States [at least in the real world] ignored mass slaughter on the African continent, and France even armed it! So, in other words, I really don't see that as a potential or accurate argument for the idea that Romania will say 'no' to the Russians - if anybody is in a bad position, it's the Balkans, and I'm sure that Romania, Bulgaria and Greece are very wary of Yugoslavian expansion into Austria, fearing subsequent operations throughout the entirety of the Balkans, and would open their arms to the Holy League for protection.

Bulgaria is part of the Socialist Federal Republic, so I think they're kinda okay with it.

It seems that if the Russians want to bomb Yugoslavia, not Yugoslav forces in Austria, they'd bomb Bulgaria, but if that's not what they want to do, because they're just trying to stop the invasion and not ruin themselves in a Balkan war, then I still don't know why Romania would feel compelled to co-operate.

Bulgaria is part of the Socialist Federal Republic, so I think they're kinda okay with it.

It seems that if the Russians want to bomb Yugoslavia, not Yugoslav forces in Austria, they'd bomb Bulgaria, but if that's not what they want to do, because they're just trying to stop the invasion and not ruin themselves in a Balkan war, then I still don't know why Romania would feel compelled to co-operate.
Is russia trying to attack Austria or Romania???

and Wellington, could you post in my navy thread? I like your subs very much

It seems that if the Russians want to bomb Yugoslavia, not Yugoslav forces in Austria


I think the war effort against Yugoslavian forces will entitle both, given that both do happen in major wars when one tries to stop the offensive. Or should have the allies focused on bombing Germany's wehrmacht, as opposed to their infratructure?


because they're just trying to stop the invasion and not ruin themselves in a Balkan war, then I still don't know why Romania would feel compelled to co-operate.


Because Russia is in a position to flatten them? Just like Germany was in 1939, and the Soviet Union in mid-1944. Romania, throughout modern history, has been inclined to helping and following the orders of the toughtest man on the block, as I said earlier. There would be no reason why they wouldn' want to allow Russia through - not to mention the potential for these huge arms deals for advance armaments and possible economic ventures with Russia and the rest of the Holy League; and like I said before - to avoid being pinned as an ally of the Progressive Bloc in a potentially Holy League only continent.


Is russia trying to attack Austria or Romania???


None; Yugoslavia.

Well, given the information at hand, all we know, regardless of what you think is the best strategy, is that Russian forces want to bomb the YPA in Austria. On that I base what I have previously said.

Yeah, Yugoslavia is the big mean European imperialist in this scenerio ;) .

OOC-People also seem to forget that the Russian bombers, in a round about way, could simply fly into Vienna and be stationed from there.

And Russia would have the capability to do a cruise missile strike as well, without question, and that negates the issue of air sovereignty in the main.

Hey, Im going to make an OOC thread for Iron West, it needs one too methinks.

It strikes me that AC has, it seems, stated that most of his conventional forces are based along the Chinese and Lyongate borders, so I don't think Russia is in exactly the best position to attack Yugoslavia and get away with it.

For clarity's sake, which RL countries are you invading to/from? I'm trying to keep track on an atlas, and it's a pain.

I have to agree that the amount of mobilisation that you are claiming is outrageous. Even 1%, and that is total armed forces, is pushing it, and that would place you at around 80,000 troops total! And that is an extremely militant force with some kind of conscription.

I would say that with your situation, you could probably have a professional force of 100,000-all branches at best on the first day of combat.

After that, you could assume that massive volounteer uprisings were taking place, but they would be extremely irregluar and not very well equipped.

On the other hand, it is kind of amusing to see Lavrageria playing the realism card. LOL!

WWJD
Amen.

Hey Quint, can it, will you? If you've got a chip on your shoulder from Lavrageria, this isn't the time or place for it! Lavrageria was more realistic than most nations in AMW, that much is certain, so don't go harping on this, "oh, Lavrageria's beseiged capital held out months when it had x amount of people and y amount of sewage and z amount of food." You should be thanful that he bothered!

If anybody deserves to be critiqued for realism, it is not Lavrageria. So stop that, you!

It strikes me that AC has, it seems, stated that most of his conventional forces are based along the Chinese and Lyongate borders, so I don't think Russia is in exactly the best position to attack Yugoslavia and get away with it.


You forget that Russia wont be alone in this endeavour.

You forget that Russia wont be alone in this endeavour.

Heh, aw, I'm sure that Bucharest is absolutely petrified of Spain ;)

Heh, aw, I'm sure that Bucharest is absolutely petrified of Spain ;)


:p Well Spain isn't the only thing it should be petrified of. As I've said at least four times now, Europe is close to being fully Holy League. That is something it should be scared of. Not to mention, Spain is yet undefeated, albeit only with two victories. :p

Pff, even the USA beat Portu... g... oh, too much World Cup talk, today. Scratch that :)

Walmington, you still haven't explained adequately why Romania wouldn't simply acquiesce to Russian demands in this endeavor. They've historically done so in the past, and they likely know that if they don't do so they're going to be flattened by the combined military forces of the Russian Empire.

LRR, the majority of my military forces are deployed around Lyong and China, but I have begun to shift them as soon as the Gibraltar conflict broke out. However, the war will likely be fought mainly by Ukrainian forces (and Moldovan conscripts), which have (for obvious reasons) not been shifted to the Chinese border.

Surely it's because Russia hasn't demonstrated a serious need to... a sufficiently serious motive to... engage in war with Romania.

You don't actually have to go to war to convince them to co-operate, but you have to convince them that you will go to war if they don't co-operate.

They know that if you get into war with them, they get Yugoslavia's help, and you have most of your forces in the east.

Whether or not they'd actually be able to win is immaterial if they realise that *you* will realise that the war will be great deal more trouble than it's worth for you.

They only have motive to acquiesce if you have them over a barrel, and you don't, so they don't. If you follow.

Moldovan forces wouldn't scare... Transdnistria, and Ukranian forces have Lavrageria to police. That's not to mention the situations in the Baltics, the vastly superior eastern enemies, and the Depkazi problem that distract a down-sized professional Russian army.

Romania may have a recentish history of caving under force of arms, but it does have an army for a reason, and if we're going to be like that we may as well say that Russia's army is going to get drunk and mutiny, France's is going to surrender, and Spain's... I don't know, has run out of money and couldn't hit the side of an oil tanker with a sniper-rifle. Romania has a significant arms industry, a multi-party democracy, and this isn't the 1940s.

*Huggles LRR*

*Huggles LRR*

Huggles? ;) , that's my new word for the day.

Hey, Moorington? Is the company Rheinmetall based in Austria, or is it Germany? And is Germany NPC or someone quiet in the HL? Also, would you be able to get your hands on a Europack tank engine for me, or would that be more Spain/France/other unfortunately HL nations.

In case you didn't guess from the post, I'm working on another tank. A Victoria A1, if you will.

Hey, Moorington? Is the company Rheinmetall based in Austria, or is it Germany? And is Germany NPC or someone quiet in the HL? Also, would you be able to get your hands on a Europack tank engine for me, or would that be more Spain/France/other unfortunately HL nations.

In case you didn't guess from the post, I'm working on another tank. A Victoria A1, if you will.

Just for the record, we should switch all that kind of conversation to my Diplomacy Thread (In sig).

They're located in Germany, but that actually doesn't count as much as you would think. It actually matters is what stock exchange posts them, since Germany is NPC I wouldn't know if they would want to post Rheinmetall in the FIA. So until further notice, I have little if any real control over Rheinmetall and shouldn't be able to be them.

As for the Europack, I would think Austria would have little if any access, since really it gets all of its tanks from Germany - and Spain in this case - so I wouldn't think Austria before my control would have donated any money to recive the Europack during my control. So sorry, another probably no.

To find it elswhere I would bet on Quintonnia - they used it for a test run on their Abrams, so they should have some kind of production facilities set up, but it was a test run and no final conclusions were drawn up so they may not have any - or Walmington, who is using/will use them in their MBTs.

So I guess I could get the designs from Germany to export Europack Engines to you -actually sounds better and better- but other than me via Germany or Walmington -who may button up, not wanting to see another land and sea power- the other main owners are Holy League.

Now supposing Walmington turns up dry one way or the other, I could get them -the designs- from Germany, there is benifits to a NPC Germany, eh? Since for my Dpkz I a better engine is needed regardless, so I will "enact" diplomacy talks and get it by tomorrow. Sound good?

Victoria A1? Sounds good, but I see the need to keep up with a better motor.

I'm not seeing it in your sig, sorry. Anyway, the gun is less important than the engine-- I'm fairly happy with the 105/120 mm that Strath gave me. But we can continue this elsewhere if you'd be so good as to give me the link.

Diplomacy/News/Factbook/Austrian Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=447224)

Here it is, I think I should at least tell the general community about getting the Europack.