NationStates Jolt Archive

World War 2

The game starts in 1939, as Germany invades Poland. France and Britain naturally invade Germany to help their allies, and the Seocnd World War Starts.

Rules

1. No Godmodding. That goes withut saying, but it should be reminded
2. Seperate OOC and IC, otherwise it may lead to confusion and frustration
3. Have a knowledge of your country and especially its military power (I can provide naval power to anyone who wants it)
4. I am Chief Mod, and I will delegate two people to be secondy mods. If I am
away, they will watch over the game for me
5. Time Frame: 1RL day= 1 in game week. Time may change based on players opinions
6. Technology- do not go beyond what your nation has at the time (no ME-262's in 1941)
7. Post regularly. Absent for more than a few days without an excuse may mean your country is played by someone else

Players:

USSR: Me
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11065541#post11065541

Britain: Titicus
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11066211&posted=1#post11066211

Italy: Voxio

Germany: Kroando

France: Scarlet States
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485496

Japan: Warta Endor

China: The Appalacians
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread....1#post11066911

United States: Sharina

Sweden: Koryan
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485710


Turkey: Elite Battle Hordes
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11072442#post11072442

Romania: Hyst
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread....4#post11076104

Spain: Nebarri Prime
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread....8#post11068708

Argentina: Franberry
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485644

Australia: Arcelea

Norway: Lamante

Yuogslavia: Wanderjar

Netherlands: Lachenburg

IC thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11066462#post11066462

come on people join!

I might be interested in playing the United States (a radical departaure from me being the Chinese player in most RP's).

excellent, you're approved. Will you be doing the combat stuff again?

Sign me up for Sweden. With the Soviets attacking Finland to the east, Germany attacking Norway to the west and Denmark to the south, this will be fun.

ok you're in

excellent, you're approved. Will you be doing the combat stuff again?

I honestly don't know. I have my hands full with gaming out stuff in Age of Imperialism, in addition to my participation in E20. So I dunno if I'll be able to war game for this WW-2 RP (but I can RP though).

This ought to be fun, I finally get to be in an RP where I am my favorite Dictator...and my long time goal of suceeding at absorbing Abyssinia has been achieved for me ^^.

Gonna be wierd now that most of my enemies were my allies in NAoI.

I honestly don't know. I have my hands full with gaming out stuff in Age of Imperialism, in addition to my participation in E20. So I dunno if I'll be able to war game for this WW-2 RP (but I can RP though).

ok that's fine anyway

Can I be Turkey?

sure

I changed my mind, I'd rather take a try at Turkey.

ok. You might want to post a reply at AoI, something big happened to you

yahooo, dananananaa

Just reaffirming that I am indeed planning to play as Germany... gotta start researching military stats... any info would be helpful.

EDIT: Also, exactly when does the RP start? 1939 was a very hectic year, with treaties and attacks all over the place... the month, even the day really changes things.

I'll give you some naval stuff soon, and anyone else who wants it

I could be the French. When will this start?

you're in. We'll start as soon as everyone can get factbook up, and I'll start an IC thread for this

Kroando as of 1939 you have:

Battleships: 3 (with Deutschland, and Bismarck building coming out in late 1939/early 1940)
Heavy Cruisers: 9
Pocket Battleships: 2
Aircraft Carrier: 1 (1 building)
Light Cruisers: 3
Torpedo Boats: 15
Submarines: 25

Seems Interesting...you still need a Japan I see... *grins*

Hell, why not. I'm quite busy with school though, but I'll manage to post every day.

ok you're in.
There may be a crisis of sorts because I will be leaving for 4 weeks in 2 weeks or so, so during that time I won't be here. I'd like for Sharina or someone else perhaps to watch over my country for me until I get back, or if necessary find someone else

I'd like to join as Romainia.

With a little player intervention, like I managed last time I did one of these things, Romania was able to become one of the dominant powers. They fielded a large an army as Germany, but al they lacked was the infrastructure and the equipement.

I'd like to join as Romainia.

With a little player intervention, like I managed last time I did one of these things, Romania was able to become one of the dominant powers. They fielded a large an army as Germany, but al they lacked was the infrastructure and the equipement.

cool, the last one I did Turkey (me) controlled Greece, Bulgaria, and iraq, but then it died.

You're in

Thanks Han! I can control the USSR for you, unless when its unfair (like during a USSR-Japan War or something).

cool, the last one I did Turkey (me) controlled Greece, Bulgaria, and iraq, but then it died.

You're in

In mine turkey went neutral and built ships. They allowed me to have the movement of "strategic impliments" allong the Bosferous, allowing me to field carrrier fleets as a springboard to the taking the territory around the black and red sea.

Thanks Han! I can control the USSR for you, unless when its unfair (like during a USSR-Japan War or something).

ok, that seems fair, because I know Sharina's doing a lot now

This is alternate history right? If it is I'll take China.

how would Romania have an army as large as Germany? Even if it obsorbed Hungary and Bulgaria it would still have a population far smaller than Germany.

This is alternate history right? If it is I'll take China.

you're in

And Scarlet States, you should probably make a D/N thread for that

you're in

And Scarlet States, you should probably make a D/N thread for that

Sorry. I'm a competent RPer and writer, but I haven't RPed very much on NationStates. What's a D/N thread?

news and diplomacy. It's were you post troop strength, land, alliances, and anything else that might come in handy. I'll post mine soon for reference

i would like to join as Spain, but i don't know much about Spain's military power at this time

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11065541#post11065541

my D/N for reference.

and Nebarri, you're in, I have some naval stuff for you, i think your army was 250,000-300,000 soldiers, many veterans, and Flangist special units

how would Romania have an army as large as Germany? Even if it obsorbed Hungary and Bulgaria it would still have a population far smaller than Germany.

Not sure... in RL, many Romanians just joined the German Army. Though Romania did fight against the Soviets in the War, they most definitly never fielded anywhere near 100 divisions.

EDIT: As of 1939 I have found this so far... though many of those numbers are just from the attack on France, and I am sure they left some sort of force in Norway, Denmark, Poland and the South.

Inf. div. 119
Tanks 3200
Bombers 1553
Fighters 1090
Aircraft carriers -
Carriers -
Battle-ships 2
Armoured ships 3
Coasters -
Heavy cruisers 2
Light cruisers 6
Torpedo-boats/destroyers 38
Minelayers/cruisers -
Mine sweepers 72
Escort vessels 10
Torpedo motor-boats 25
Submarine/U-boats 57

http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/ww2.htm

Germany had more than 300, but many of them were reservists

France:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485496

Great Britain

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11066211&posted=1#post11066211

I guess I could do Argentina, really far from all the fighting

(But never worry I shall find a way to get involved!)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11066462#post11066462

IC thread. Game has officially begun

I guess I could do Argentina, really far from all the fighting

(But never worry I shall find a way to get involved!)

okay, you're in

argh. I will put up a China ND thread soon but I am having trouble finding statistics. Help would be appreciated, naval or otherwise...

Give me a few days to get the information on the US in 1939, and to get together a factbook for it as I have quite a few things on my plate RP-wise.

Give me a few days to get the information on the US in 1939, and to get together a factbook for it as I have quite a few things on my plate RP-wise.

that's fine

Here's China's DN thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11066911#post11066911

Spanish D/N for now

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11068708#post11068708

Well, I'd like to try my hand at directing Australia, if that's all right. Be warned though; I have never RP'd before this, although I intend to gauge the first bit of the situation to grasp what it's all about. Also, I'll be leaving my current abode in about a month for Basic Training, where everything is currently unknown to me. There is an internet connection, but I have no clue how often I'll be able to get online. If you're still willing to let me partake in the fun, cool. If not, no hard feelings; I wouldn't let me either. :p

(I'll be researching and re-learning Australia's economic, political, and miltaristic situations at this time, but any additional info would be appreciated.)

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485523

Still Under Construction

Well, I'd like to try my hand at directing Australia, if that's all right. Be warned though; I have never RP'd before this, although I intend to gauge the first bit of the situation to grasp what it's all about. Also, I'll be leaving my current abode in about a month for Basic Training, where everything is currently unknown to me. There is an internet connection, but I have no clue how often I'll be able to get online. If you're still willing to let me partake in the fun, cool. If not, no hard feelings; I wouldn't let me either. :p

(I'll be researching and re-learning Australia's economic, political, and miltaristic situations at this time, but any additional info would be appreciated.)

ok you're in

Turkish Factbook (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11072442#post11072442)

yea. I still need naval and I can't seem to find anything on Chinese Armored units. Di they exist? Help me please.

Chinese armored is probably older Light tanks, I don't believe they had many during the war.

As for navy, you have 2 destroyers, 1 sloop (actually as well armed as the destroyers), 7 gunboats, and 9 river gunboats.
Some of them may have been sunk by the Japanese

Hey can I possibly have Poland? If not then Finland?

Romanian D/N

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11072619#post11072619

Hey can I possibly have Poland? If not then Finland?

yea we need a Poland, so I suggest you start RP'ing immediately. Just go to wikipedia and search September Campaign and you should find the Polish Order of battle, and their positions at the start of the war

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485644


There it is, I will be getting all the other stuff soon

whoever said that they knew naval strengh, help would be apreciated

for Argentina I only have the classes, not when they came out of how many were built, sorry

for Argentina I only have the classes, not when they came out of how many were built, sorry
ah, thats ok, I shall look around

Might I ask as to your source?

Any chance any of you know what kind of light tanks I have? Or vessel classes?

Any chance any of you know what kind of light tanks I have? Or vessel classes?
did the chinise even have tanks?

or enough to be put into units?

China had a few Renault FTs and carden Loyds as far as I know. (If even, this is perhaps why Japan managed to do so much with such light flimsy tanks)

You can get a few armored cars I guess, most likely improvised or surplus WWI quality.

China also had a "small" revolution going on. The National Party was friendly with America, the Communists I have no idea, but they sure didn't like the Japanese.

Try and get some supplies from lend lease, such as .50 cal M2 MG, which could riddle a light japanese tank, and shoot up planes. Armored vehicles will be too heavy to fly over the Burma "hump".

You also might get some British/American tanks once the Burma road is finished. (provided India is still has an open port)

The link for the british Factbook and D/N thread does not work (in the first page)

I don't know why, I tried to re-paste it, but it won't work for some reason.


Britain's Factbook is on Page 3 for future reference


until I can fix this

thank you!

Go here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11066211&posted=1#post11066211)

Copy URL from address bar

Insert on page 1 under "Great Britian"

Click "save"

I know that, but before It wasn't showing up for some reason, now it's working

Could I join as Norway? PM me if so.

you're in

A heads up- I'll probably be able to get my US stuff up and running this weekend as I'll have plenty of time to collect all 1939 info on the US and what forces it had and everything.

A heads up- I'll probably be able to get my US stuff up and running this weekend as I'll have plenty of time to collect all 1939 info on the US and what forces it had and everything.

take your time, nothing involved the US has happened yet

I wont be able to get my factbook up until next week, what with graduation and the related parties.

Could I join in as Yugoslavia?

yep

Can we make our own designs?

based on technology available at the time? (1939 as of now)

like, no turboprop strategic bombers

but light armoured cars? or soemthing like that?

show me something reasnable and perhaps

Do we have a Poland or should I post their RL Historical Actions and continue the war? Another thing... France and Britain completely mobilized in eight days... in RL, it took nearly 5 months for them to be fully prepared for a war, and it isnt like they purposely did it slowly. Seeing as it is the same France as before, how are they managing to do what took 5 months, in eight days? Thats the problem, we're RPing with the knoledge of what will happen... not as if we were in the moment. Realistically, France and Britain were still trying to negotiate with Germany, they did not want another World War... they were'nt trying to rush into another one.

I think something like 2 or 3 months may be accurate, Poland didn't even get half its draftees until much later on, and many were killed becasue German planes strafed.

As for Poland, we have a player, but if he doesn't post within a day or so we'll do it historically

for some reason I am finding that my link is inopperable

below is another

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485641

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11075154#post11075154

Here's my Factbook on Yugoslavia. I'm still working on it, but its a start at least. Trust me, it isn't easy to find info on this country!

for some reason I am finding that my link is inopperable

below is another

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485641

seems i have the same problem with mine...

Swedish Factbook (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485710)

Not even close to being done. Sweden didn't release too much info on their military during the war. Oh well, Swedish Neutrality will buy me time to build my war machine. :D

When did I ever say that Britain was mobilizing in 8 days. France said that.

And IRL the Allies set an ultimatum, withdraw from Poland or war will begin. That is what we are doing

for no apparent reasion my D/N was closed on me, I have restarted one here

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11076104#post11076104

Okay, sorry about the 8 days thing. I wasn't even thinking when I posted that. I'll change it. Sorry guys.

OOC: If you do not mind, I would like to claim the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

yep, and give me a few minutes to get all the factbooks updated

show me something reasnable and perhaps
Spanish: Carro de Combate Ligero (the accents are missing)
English: Light Armoured Car

Crew: 4
Main gun: 25mm cannon
Secondary armament: 7.5mm coaxial MG, another hull 7.5mm MG
Weight: 8 tons
Armour: 22mm front, side: 15mm, rear: 10mm
Speed: 70 k/h

Other: 4 wheel drive

something liek that seems feasible for pre-early WWII

yea that's fine

I made a thread but it's under construction

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11082004#post11082004

Sorry, but due to recent developments I won't have enough time on my hands to take part in this RP. I'm going to have to relinquish France to another player. Sorry.

sorry i was gone for the past three days...anyway i am back now. i'll get some stuff up soon possibly

and i want to fix my D/N due to the fact that it doesn't seem to work, so use this

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11068708#post11068708

we need a new france

what we need is a freakin Japan

He said: at least one german plane per polish plane.

The polish had some very excelent Anti tank rifles, so good that the germans copied them, (although the german design was crappier). I hope I don't have to define an Anti-Tank Rifle to you.

The JU-87 was accurate, mostly because of an automated pull out device that kept pilots alive after a particularily steep dive. The pilot would then black out for a time afterwards. This was much better than to watch a well trained pilot crash with his bomb into the ground. Also, this permited a steeper dive and since you now have almost zero forward velocity, aiming is so simple almost anybody with good nerves could do it. The 500 tank kill claim was not made with bombs, but strafing with a modified JU-87 with a pair of 20 mm cannons. And even he missed from time to time. Also note the words one german pilot, in other words, that was much above average. The Fuhrer was extatic if any of his pilots lived past their 200th mission, Hans-Ulrich Rudel made over 2,000 sorties to make those 500 tank kills.

The accuracy of the Stuka had nothing to due with the automatic pull up device. Though useful in saving the pilots life after he began his dissent on the enemy, the targeting was done by the pilot. The Stuka was an effective weapon against enemy fortifications, artillery pieces and tanks throughout the war. This is a historical fact... so unless youve got some more bullshit ya'd like to make up, there is no way you are going to convince me the amazing Polish Airforce is going to overcome the Luftwaffe.

Who has more toime to set up a gun (artillery)? Someone 100 miles behind friendly lines and merely waits for the enemy, or someone who has to advance under enemy fire to get within range. Also, Polish artillery 'zeroed' select choke points. Zeroing is another method of using artillery. You lock in preset co-ordnates and save them, give them a short code and when the enemy is around you give orders reletive to a zeroed location. Very accurate, very fast. Ever see an unassisted 105 mm shoot a moving truck from 2 miles away with one shot?

Apperantly you're not grasping the idea of a withdraw... when you are withdrawing or retreating, your position changes. Ergo, your precious hours of 'zeroing in' are worthless, you now need to reset your firing settings and redeploy. He was withdrawing, then stopped, and turned around. Haste ruins whatever plans you had... I wont even point out the uselessness of setting up an artillery gun 100 miles behind friendly lines... there is this thing called range... ya, no gun has 100 mile range. Stop trying to make the Polish Retreat look like some kind of amazing impenatrable defense. So far he is retreating... exactly how is that supposed to inflict more casualties than what the Polish did IRL in fighting back?

Wiki source you most likely overlooked and/or distorted for your own needs.

-
Wiki source you most likely overlooked and/or distorted for your own needs.

Not only were the German Bf 109 and Bf 110 faster and better armed, but also most German bombers were faster than P.11c as well. Since the planes were intensively used, their maximum speed was still lower than the theoretical 375 km/h. P.11a were in an even worse situation. Another serious defficiency was their small number which meant that missions involving groups larger than about 20 planes were rarely accomplished and reserve machines were practically unavailable

So far, he is withdrawing. That means he is turning around and running to the Vistula... exactly how is that going to stop me? This is the same Polish Army that crumbled in a month RL, tell me, what exactly has he done so spectacularly that would change any of what really happened.

The accuracy of the Stuka had nothing to due with the automatic pull up device. Though useful in saving the pilots life after he began his dissent on the enemy, the targeting was done by the pilot. The Stuka was an effective weapon against enemy fortifications, artillery pieces and tanks throughout the war. This is a historical fact... so unless youve got some more bullshit ya'd like to make up, there is no way you are going to convince me the amazing Polish Airforce is going to overcome the Luftwaffe.

Apperantly you're not grasping the idea of a withdraw... when you are withdrawing or retreating, your position changes. Ergo, your precious hours of 'zeroing in' are worthless, you now need to reset your firing settings and redeploy. He was withdrawing, then stopped, and turned around. Haste ruins whatever plans you had... I wont even point out the uselessness of setting up an artillery gun 100 miles behind friendly lines... there is this thing called range... ya, no gun has 100 mile range. Stop trying to make the Polish Retreat look like some kind of amazing impenatrable defense. So far he is retreating... exactly how is that supposed to inflict more casualties than what the Polish did IRL in fighting back?

So far, he is withdrawing. That means he is turning around and running to the Vistula... exactly how is that going to stop me? This is the same Polish Army that crumbled in a month RL, tell me, what exactly has he done so spectacularly that would change any of what really happened.

You are advancing, right? He doesn't have to, you'll eventually walk into an artillery ambush set up some distance behind enemy lines, even the americans grasped this concept during the revolution at the battle of Cowpens. Not being able to understand this makes you look less intelligent than Tarlton, Clinton and Howe.

It is called defense in depth. Learn it, please, Hitler succumbed t it in Russia and if you don't learn you will too.
-----------
The Vistula is a river which can only be crossed by a few bridges or airborne assault. And the German army isn't made of Paratroops, those guys are rare and the planes are even more scarce. Perfect place for an above mentioned ambush.
------------
And back on the Stuka, the auto pull out allowed the pilots to make steeper and faster dives, leaving less time for them to be shot at, and a more accurate throw to the bomb since it is now moving near parrellel to the force of gravity at all times. The British did a massive study of glide bombing and dive bombing, and found a direct corralation between dive angle and accuracy.

The Auto pull up also saved mediocre pilots when they make a minor mistake of perhaps forgeting dive brakes and pass out, they then live to tell about it and don't make the mistake again. It lets you do things in the Stuka that would have killed the pilot in any older german plane.
---------
Please read Karl Von Clauswitz "Vom Kriege" in whatever language it is that you speak.

Karl was a Prussain Artillery officer (like Napoleon) and wrote a rather insightful book about war, polotics, the advantages of retreat, the dissadvantages of advance, and the concepts of troop moral and logistical 'friction'.

He also defined war, pointed out the dissadvantages and advantages of defending from a river, and the advantage of advancing (only way to win a war, can choose where to attack and with what) and retreat (supirior kill/death ratio, prior knowledge of land, intirior supply lines and depots [A disney movie on Air warfare should explain this bit if you don't understand]).

This book was, and still is the military stratician's bible. Read it before you make a fool of yourself in Russia. In russia you'll be dealing with ambushes planned thousands of miles in advance of your army, the most noteable ones being Moscow, Lenningrad, Stalingrad, and Kursk.

With this book one can accurately predict what is going to generally happen in a campaign, provided you know what each side has, and what they plan on doing, this works even with Korea, Vietnam and Iraq; and even nukes.
-----
What you describe as a Retreat is refferred to in more correct terms as a 'rout', there are 3 ways to back away from the enemy, rout, retreat, and withdrawl.

Retreat involves a cover action by a reargaurd, these people would have to be worked around or destroyed before you can advance. Everything is orderly, another line of defense can be set up in a more advantageous location, such as a large river.

A rout is when the reargaurd has broken down, generally this is where people start dropping their guns and losing their shoes. If you keep enough pressure on these you can drive them to the sea and watch them drown.

A withdrawl is when something stops the fighting, and the enemy extracates themselves unmolested. To make it a retreat you have to be dumb enough to follow.
-----
Also, you might want to start understanding what a tactical resserve force is, and it is not the national gaurd! They are troops not presently fighting and able to be put wherever, even 100 miles to the rear.

Then the main force dissengages, leaving a small reargaurd for you to play with for the night (reargaurd makes itself look big, might even stage a counterattack at dawn or make a small rout to make you think you whipped em good)

The main force then sets up shop at the next line of defense, perhaps 200 miles away (in the case of Russia).

Daylight arrives, you find that the enemy is gone, so you advance.

Poles attack where you least expect it while all your guns are out of the ground and pins the rest of your force (and because you have no resserve, the poles kill your weak spot and then wipe you out piecemeal.)

You are advancing, right? He doesn't have to, you'll eventually walk into an artillery ambush set up some distance behind enemy lines, even the americans grasped this concept during the revolution at the battle of Cowpens. Not being able to understand this makes you look less intelligent than Tarlton, Clinton and Howe.

Seeing as he has yet to RP setting up one ambush in the entire country, I am not going to walk into any suprise attack, as there are none. You not being able to grasp the concept of attacking your enemy while he retreats makes you look less intelligent than Hussein in the Iraq-Iran War, in which a very similar situation arose. The Iraqis launched a suprise attack, the Iranians retreated. The Iraqis moved in, the Iranians had nothing to stop them. Fearing 'ambushes', Hussein halted. This is referred to by many stategists, as one of the greatest blunders in military history. So where as my mistake allows my to roll over Poland in a month, yours puts you into a multi-year war against Iran which could have been won in two weeks. You sound like a complete idiot telling me that what historically was sucessfull is a poor strategy.

It is called defense in depth. Learn it, please, Hitler succumbed t it in Russia and if you don't learn you will too.

How exactly are Poland and Russia the same nation? Hitler was beaten in the harsh winter by a massive Soviet Union. I am fighting a Poland in SEPTEMBER. His armies are no where near comparable to that of Poland. In RL, and this RP, there is no defense in depth regarding Poland. Poland was run over, there was no long, drawn out conflict.

The Vistula is a river which can only be crossed by a few bridges or airborne assault. And the German army isn't made of Paratroops, those guys are rare and the planes are even more scarce. Perfect place for an above mentioned ambush.

Well lets think about this for a minute... Poland just withdrew all of his forces to the East side of the Vistula River. Apperantly you have absolutely no idea what the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is, for if you did, you'd understand that there is absolutely no reason for me even to continue this war. Poland just gave me everything West of the Vistula by evacuating it and withdrawing to the East... well in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Germany and the USSR agreed that everything east of the Vistula was to go to the USSR. Waddaya know, I dont even need to cross the river, I have already recieved everything I was after... ever think for a damned second that mabey I wasnt going to invade the USSR? Cross bridges? No. I will destroy those bridges, pound his forces with my more plentiful, higher calibre artillery pieces and sit on my side of Poland. I have no reason to attack any further, and seeing as he is in full withdraw, I now control all of Western Poland... game over, the rest is the Soviets Game.

Karl was a Prussain Artillery officer (like Napoleon) and wrote a rather insightful book about war, polotics, the advantages of retreat, the dissadvantages of advance, and the concepts of troop moral and logistical 'friction'.

He also defined war, pointed out the dissadvantages and advantages of defending from a river, and the advantage of advancing (only way to win a war, can choose where to attack and with what) and retreat (supirior kill/death ratio, prior knowledge of land, intirior supply lines and depots [A disney movie on Air warfare should explain this bit if you don't understand]).

This book was, and still is the military stratician's bible. Read it before you make a fool of yourself in Russia.

Learn what the word diplomacy means before you make foolish presumptions about my invading Russia. Now if I have awnsered all of your completely assumptive questions, you can go read a few books on the September Campaign and the complete inefficiency and dissorganization of the Polish Military before you make yourself look like an idiot any more than you already have. Do not presume you know exactly what it is I am going to do, for it is painfully obvious you do not have the slightest clue. By calling me an idiot for pursuing Germany's actual attack plan in Poland, you make yourself out to be a complete fool... as Germany's (My) attack plan historically worked. You have called a sucessfull attack plan a poor one, and through your unparalled and undeserved sense of superiority, claimed that you have a better understanding of military strategy than some of the best commanders in the history of military warfare.

So, Russia hasn't taken over Poland yet, you have your piece, and the majority of the poles are on the Visula. And you have no intention of pressing them any further? From what you wrote above I'll assume you'll keep the poles from getting back into the west then.

I also take it you've never read Clauswitz's book, or otherwise you'd know there's a whole 10 chapters devoted to diplomacy.

If you fail to keep the Visula occupied, there would be nothing to keep the poles from sneaking back across and hitting your forces.

The only foolish things I've done is forgoten the exact border of the Russian/German NAP and that you had no intention of invading Russia.

The Fuhrer has been known to lie so well he even fools himself. (the "Germany never wanted a war" speech, along with the speeches he made of Stalingrad about "taking it over a little at a time with small forces")
But for now I'll assume that you are honest.
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Makes it a little difficult to invade France when nobody is playing it, so I assumed that you'd just keep going east, since without France the rest of Europe would be congradulating you upon sacking Russia, not invading.

France had this long alliance with Poland and Russia that involved defending them if attacked and vice versa. France in turn had alliances with Holland, GB and their empires. Therefore, no France, no real war. The war is over, you won, pat yourself on the back, you now finished WW2 and have gained 1/2 of Poland. Don't you feel grand? (note sarcasm) You honestly used all that preperation just for Poland? I doubt it.

"All bow down to Germany! Sacker of Poland! Conquerer of the haybales! Slayer of the dreaded Polish Sausages! Captor of thousands of cows and sheep!"

But then, what about Denmark, Norway and Finland? Might not want to go up there, and don't support them Finns, otherwise you'll have to fight Russia anyways as part of the Russo-Finnish war. Keep your distance from Japan too, or else get involved in the Manchurian affiar.

Kind of pointless trying to not get to war with Russia, you're going to anger them eventually.
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Why am I going on and on explaining why I thought you were going to be fighting Russia? The point is, if you where in a similar situation as an invasion of Russia/USA/Canada/China you'd fail missrebly because you will. It sounds stupid but with only what you know already, and if you went on a war against any of them from anywhere with anybody as any country, you'd still lose.

Your "historic success in Poland" was against a different defense by the way, and is therefore void. You'll just have to see how it turns out.

Your entire argument is, as I have said before, based off assumptions that I am going to follow the exact course of action the Germans did IRL. You are insulting me and attacking my strategy based on things you think that I am going to do, not things that I am doing, or things that I have done. There is more to Europe than France and Russia... perhapse take a look south at the Balkans... or god forbid we find another player for France. Either way, you are simply ranting on about 'how stupid I would be if I did this or that'... if I charged into Russia like Hitler IRL, it would be stupid. So what? I didnt do it, nor did I say I was going to. Whatever your point was, is finished, and if you would like to stop annoying me with hypothetical situations and baseless assumptions, id like to stop this completely pointless argument.

Actually this argument started over the Stuka (and how helpful the automated pull out device actually was), your tanks (and how they could take heavy losses to Poland's Anti-tank rifles), and your claim that retreating is always a bad idea, when it isn't always a bad idea (another case in point, 1st Battle of the Marne).
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I then decided to use the battle of Cowpens, and later the utter failure of Operation: Barborossa (Hitler's attemt to sack Moscow in 6 months or less [before winter set in], only to be defeated by Russia's famouse defense-in-depth) in Russia.
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The winter of 1941 wasn't super bad (Napoleon's was worse), it was poor logistics (they didn't get winter gear until mid January, and even then only to elite troops), partisans kept shooting Germany's wagon trains up before they could get to the front, they got bogged down traveling vast distances through crappy terrain. Until German troops could capture the oil fields in the south, Germany would have to import most of its oil. This oil would then have to get from the docks in Germany to the front lines of Moscow, Stalingrad and Lenningrad, along with ammunition and food. (note italics, without oil you will soon starve your armored force of their lifeblood).

Lack of oil and ammunition is what forced Paulus to surrender at Stalingrad (IRL, not in your case), otherwise he would have broken free (except for a few things, such as being ordered to hold [but then again he was ordered not to surrender]).

If you took it upon yourself to have a greater strive for mechanisation, and you aren't going after the oil fields in the middle east, you won't be able to sustain military operations very long (RL german army had over 70% of thier troops mounted on horses or walking next to horse drawn wagons [the appearance of a fully mechanised german army with invunlerable tanks was through a lot of very clever propoganda]).

In the meantime you might want to work out better ways of using horse drawn wagons in battle. It'll do you more good than designing new tanks and planes towards the end of the war (unless you are working on alternitive fuels).

Germany's motto by 1943:
"A better breed of horse and wagon makes a busted Wermacht better."

two of the worst winter years on russian record was 1812 and 1942 they coincindently they fell on the massive invasions (the point: russian winters hates invasions)

hey guys, calm down, this thing is for playing a game and debate, lets not make it personal

Personally, I think those two did a bang-up job arguing their points. Did you see how many huge posts they each had? Like a hundred! :D

On another note, whatsay we get back to waging war instead of fighting amongst ourselves? ;)

A great argument on World War II and I missed it.

I would but there is still a dispute in whether my little Artillery cover for the men still withdrawing was possible. Though I think it was.

Then there's the little Polish airforce dsipute. But other than those thign sI think we're good. The whole Stalin-Hitler Alliance I'm letting go if those two personally thought it up together.

But since my disputes are with Germany I'll jkust respond to the SU until my disputed actions are somwaht resolved.

Oh by the way I do remember Warsaw being part of the area given to Germany, I do believe that is within my area of still held national Polish Areas, unless your giving up Warsaw now.

As of now, I am only taking everything West of the line I drew up IC. I may indeed keep going, launch a new attack, or stop with what I have. But as of now, all I am doing is taking everything West of the Vistula, and skrewing around in the area around Krakow.

Thank you Poland, that was for you.

BTW, I'm nuetral on the entire issue of who wins (3rd party observer) I tgerefore have very little reason to distort any information that I give or recieve.

Note to Poland:

Make like the Swiss and convince them you are better for them intact and nuetral.

You'll then be able to keep Warsaw, and what is left of your military. Then as the war progresses, side with the winner during a critical moment.

This is unlikely but is worth a try.

Note to Germany:

Get oil

Don't get over ambitous

And if they want a full out war then give it to them and hope Russia likes you.
(except that the Soviets and socialists have a massive fued in ideaologies, you could solve this by stating the communist party controls germany, but then your Luftwaffe wouldn't be in Spain)

Learn to manage multiple lines of defense and how to deal with it. (so far you haven't RPed recieving any)

My plan was to let them get tired and convince them it's better to make peace then continue fighting. Then I could work on my interior of Poland and stuff.

Edit: I'm also going to go ahead and say my Poland thread is done.

Once again, my deepest apologies for delayed US thread- I have had my hands full with a potential World War 4 in E20 (Earth 1900-2000). Now that the war seems like it *MIGHT* be averted, at least for my nation in E20 I might have more time to attend to other RP's like this one.

Haneastic and Koryan knows what I'm talking about.

E20, pshah

Lachenburg, Hyst, I responded to your messages

my link has stopped working, here is one that works

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11093890#post11093890

Part of the British Commonwealth, decent national military by the end of the War, Tech is the same as U.K.
Any way, I have a good idea of RCAF stats and numbers and I'm looking up the rest

Oh, for those who never read it:

Karl Von Clausewitz: On War (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/ONWARTOC.html)

And some select readings (although it's all good stuff).


Strategic Resserve (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/BK3ch13.html)
Modes of Resistance to the Offensive (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/BK6ch08.html)
Retreat after losing a battle (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/BK4ch13.html)
Retreating into the intirior of your own country (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/BK6ch25.html)
Defense of Streams and Rivers (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/Bk6ch18.html)


Yes, it does have a large amount on attacking rivers and such, but that wouldn't prove that retreat sometimes is a very good thing to do.

come on guys, dont let this die, this would be the third WWII RP that's died on me.

poke!!!!!

come on guys, dont let this die, this would be the third WWII RP that's died on me.

poke!!!!!

ditto