NationStates Jolt Archive

As the last thread really got off on the wrong foot and is pretty much dead in the water here is a thread to discuss were things stand, what should be undone, and what should be taken where.

Here's what I plan to say, do, and so forth:

1. There will be no war. There has not been intended to be a war RP in the conventional sense, and there will not be.

2. It's false to say that CBBC is not making any money off the branches in McKagan, it's just not making it in McKagan. Seeing the company pour money into 100 branches that don't make any money and probably have no visitors at all generates huge amounts of customer goodwill in Allanea itself.

3. I plan to attempt and exact vengeance on the grungers once/if the CBBC is all pushed out. The exact details of the vengeance will be agreed upon in this thread.

2. It's false to say that CBBC is not making any money off the branches in McKagan, it's just not making it in McKagan. Seeing the company pour money into 100 branches that don't make any money and probably have no visitors at all generates huge amounts of customer goodwill in Allanea itself.

Probably less then 100 stores now, seeing as how the grungers are going after them with twice the fire power and C4...

The grunge movement held an unprecedented advantage. With the same amount of attackers and a smaller number of targets - it could only get worse. In the days after the Tratain address the random gunfire got stronger and more constant at the beseiged service industry workers.

Then it happened. In the early hours of the morning several Triesa franchises were attacked with black market-aquired C12 plastic explosive. Looking to outright destroy the remaining buildings - it was only a matter of time until the CBBC would be wiped out.

I would say "customer goodwill" is the wrong terms to use, more pride and identification (the corporation struggling against anti-capitalist forces, such a thing Allaneans are romantics about). There is also the factor of the CBBC being forced out of Mckagan being a humiliation (the sun actually setting on the Golden Bunny in one country), something they would want to avoid and avenge.

3. I plan to attempt and exact vengeance on the grungers once/if the CBBC is all pushed out. The exact details of the vengeance will be agreed upon in this thread.

Good... I think everyone was expecting vengeance to be attempted/exacted (in some form). The CBBC did after all purchase huge amounts of weapons and Allanea has all those independent mercenaries/militias with top line military training (it was only logical IC and OOC to expect it)... Its just the transformation of the low level conflict between an element of Mckagan subculture and an Allanean multinational into a major potential world war (with countries such as Parthia, with no interests, jumping in) was too big of a stretch/over the top (fast food francises are often attacked in domestic cultural conflicts in RL, so one can assume such things are common in the NS world as well).

OOC: The Parthian king is a CBBC shareholder.

OOC: The Parthian king is a CBBC shareholder.

Oh right, he is...although going to war would not earn him any additional money what-so-ever, still he is the Shah, he can do what he wants and damn the consquences...but that this whole line of discussion is irrelevent given 1).

BTW: Thats another reason to keep CBBC banned in Amestria, as Amestria does not allow access by corporations owned by the Shah...his various slaughters Amestria's government has found quite displeasing. :)

Anyway, as Mckagan is not here and you two have different hours you might as well comment on what your ideas for vengence are...

ith top line military training

Well it's NOT all that top of the line. Quiet a few CBSF personnel are 16-year-olds needing a summer job, especially with not-very-dangerous duties like stadium security.

Well it's NOT all that top of the line. Quiet a few CBSF personnel are 16-year-olds needing a summer job, especially with not-very-dangerous duties like stadium security.

I was talking about the people who own their own camps and soldier for a living (or extensive hobby) rather then the average CBSF personnel (who would simply be trained to deal with Allanean security...although that in itself requires a bit more then the average RL US security job, as in Allanea guns are fashion).

Well, think of the US militia movement. Most of those people don't HAVE really extensive training, though I am sure they're better then the ordinary guy.

On the other hand, a variety of shooting, combat, etc. skills are imparted in the schools in Allanea, and everybody is expected to be able to defend himself on some level. :)

Being in a militia group, and training in your spare time for fun (which is what I suspect is the real reason most of the RL militia members are doing this for, and the ideology is just an excuse) or for ideology is very much a mainstream activity in Allanea, and in some areas there's actual cooperation between law enforcement and the militias.

But to say everybody in my nation is a wanky ultrasoldier is just... errm.

Most of those people don't HAVE really extensive training, though I am sure they're better then the ordinary guy.

Those people don't have access to unregulated helocopters and cutting edge military grade hardware.

But to say everybody in my nation is a wanky ultrasoldier is just... errm.

And I did not say that either, I said those who soldier, as in those who actually go off to foreign countries and fight in wars, insurgencies, or whatever, for the Allanean government, for Allanean corporations, for their own idelogy, or simply out of boredom... I was not talking about the average militia man (who even with the best ametur training could not equal that of a proffessional soldier).

Like that one (in)famous bragade...can't remember its name. Anyway, private/free lance soldiers would probably be the most correct term to use (rather then militia).

On the other hand, a variety of shooting, combat, etc. skills are imparted in the schools in Allanea, and everybody is expected to be able to defend himself on some level. :)

Those same loony schools were both the teachers and students are armed...talk about a low stress working enviornment (less then rational kids with developing brains, weapons, and stressful enviornments probably equal more then a few funnerals once in a while).

Those people don't have access to unregulated helocopters and cutting edge military grade hardware.

Well, how many people can afford a helicopter? But yeah, I see your point.

My main problem is the movement of a FLEET against McKagan and the Allanean government declaring that the McKagan government has to hand him over - or they'll get him.

That simply doesn't work and has to completely be rewritten before we go ahead.

I told you all the PROBLEMS you'd have at assassinating Duff Tratain. Does that mean it's impossible? It would be really difficult - but you'd get a few shots (not guarenteed kills) if you were patient enough and didn't start a firefight with the KSI. If you did then you'd face your Special Forces being trapped in a foreign land and being hunted by the McKagan government, KSI, and god knows who else.

THAT would be the proper start to an international incident.

It doesn't have to be a big ass war, It could be you simply arresting the party in question. If you are afraid to do that because it will create unrest then I think it indicates a problem with your government. If people break the law they need to be arrested, likewise of influence.

I'm still being put in a position where i've either got to turn Tratain over or it leads to war. This whole situation could have never gotten that big in the first place.

That, and you finally understand my government! Everyone on this game doesn't try to create the perfect government. This game isn't about "winning," it's about telling a story. My government DOES have its issues. In the face of popular culture it really has issues coping. It's a liberal institution and gets points by that - but it's also highly corporate.

You receive a videotape threatening you or your employees with violence if things don't go someone's way. You... logically enough, forward this to law enforcement.

THREATENING violence? There's BEEN violence since the start of my involvement in the RP.

Listen you stupid fuck. I know you're a stupid redneck, but do you have no compassion for your countrymen that you're killing for absolutely nothing more than your stupid pride! I'm openly giving you a chance to save those pathetic service industry workers that are still within McKagan. You have 24 hours to make an international address stating that anarchy and hair grunge music have defeated your corporation. When 24 hours are up I will release this time stamped video to CSHR News. It'll play all around the world and prove you to be a fraud who cares about nothing more than self-pride. The pathetic service industry workers who are about to DIE because of your pride - along with their friends and family MAY not like that very much!


Where did that say that Duff was going to do anything different if the CBBC didn't pull out? He was giving the CBBC a CHANCE TO SAVE ITS EMPLOYEES. CBBC employees have been getting attacked since the start of my involvement in the thread. Duff was saying he'd STOP if the CBBC would simply surrender.

That quote has been twisted in some sick way to make Duff into something he's not.

I won't do an RP on those grounds.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11057171&postcount=155

That deals with the fleet and the branches.

So essentially, Duff has sent CBBC a 'surrender or die' message. Nothing in the world pisses off an Allanean more then trying to influence his mind through violence or implying he'd be amenable to it.

Look, semantics aside:

CBBC is angry. And the Allaneans are angry. And I think it's legitimate RP to try and do something about it.

I think it's fine for you to do something about it. As i've stated, though - this site seems to be full of childish and immature people who can't fulfill their ideas for this game without turning everything into some godawful World War RP full of cliche storylines and bad RP concepts. I won't do RP's like that.

(Edit^: Not talking about anyone in specific there.)

If you want to do a Special Forces RP, you can. However, forget the notion of keeping a fleet near McKagan or threatening everyone with large scale military operations. Futhermore, forget about bringing every ally you have in to "help." Small teams of Special Forces are ok. Political warfare? Ok.

Hell, I could even start it. What about the McKagan government gets pissed and finances a terrorist network in secret to attack the CBBC in other nations? Just remember something. If you go after Duff and fail - Duff will use his HUGE finances to wage a WAR against Allanea/CBBC. His goal was to defeat the CBBC in McKagan. He's done waging his war. If you come after him again he WILL take it outside McKagan.

OOC: This was edited. Dammit, I didn't see that.

So, I could see three things happen, simultaneously.

1. THe Allanean Government going after Tratain. They are angry, they are angry, they are angry, and unlike CBSF they don't believe in 'minimal collateral damage'. This means they're going to try some totally overkill, abjectly insane method. Like... well, think sending several hundred assassins to try killing Tratain with RPG launchers to the head.

2. The CBSF also wants to go after Tratain, but they want to have asl ittle people die as possible, so to reduce the effect on their reputation.

3. A variety of Allanean militias and terrorist groups having people travel to McKagan.

OOC: This was edited. Dammit, I didn't see that.

So, I could see three things happen, simultaneously.

1. THe Allanean Government going after Tratain. They are angry, they are angry, they are angry, and unlike CBSF they don't believe in 'minimal collateral damage'. This means they're going to try some totally overkill, abjectly insane method. Like... well, think sending several hundred assassins to try killing Tratain with RPG launchers to the head.

2. The CBSF also wants to go after Tratain, but they want to have asl ittle people die as possible, so to reduce the effect on their reputation.

3. A variety of Allanean militias and terrorist groups having people travel to McKagan.

This overkill method is going to cause more trouble than it helps you with, as I see it. If you send a LOT of people to McKagan then the government could call a state of emergency and move the MILITARY.

I know overkill is just how you WORK - but think about it. I'm not saying you can't do that, but it should be completely thought out first.

I've decided to list a set of problems you'll have if you try a major "insurgency" type operation.


Foreigners can be arrested for even HAVING a weapon.
How do you plan to get weapons into the country? The grungers got weapons because of their alliance with KSI. The McKagan government has a powerful and far-reaching anti-gun unit.
McKagan will automatically be suspicous of Allanea. As a member of the Infinite Empire of Yallak - McKagan could get protection from there.
This WOULD be an escalation of the conflict. McKagan would be perfectly clear to escalate it in turn by seeking out those who financed the strikes.
As soon as you take a shot at Tratain, the McKagan government will evacuate him to a secret holding facility.


I KNOW that brute force is simply how you operate, but can't you see how a massive operation would fail this way? You're going to have a bitch of a time logistically just to arm a FEW people.

Mckagan, this thread is for discussing and planning a future rich and rewarding RP, not argueing.



Foreigners can be arrested for even HAVING a weapon.

(And in Amestria anyone not working for the government and without authorization can and will be arrested for having a weapon). Key word, foreigners... First the assassens would have to be identified as foreigners (though, as I pointed out once, Allaneans tend to stick out like sore thumbs). There is also the fact that Mckaganese people could be recruited by the Allaneans (as Duff is seeking social transformation I doubt he has a sortage of domestic enemies).

How do you plan to get weapons into the country? The grungers got weapons because of their alliance with KSI. The McKagan government has a powerful and far-reaching anti-gun unit.

That is a question best answered by brainstorming IC. Also, I would point out that certain Mckagan cities are havens for gang violence...so the anti-gun unit is not that powerful and far-reaching (descripe it).

McKagan will automatically be suspicous of Allanea. As a member of the Infinite Empire of Yallak - McKagan could get protection from there.

As agreed upon earlier this will not become a war RP so that is rather irrelevent.

As soon as you take a shot at Tratain, the McKagan government will evacuate him to a secret holding facility.


As you pointed out earlier it does not seem in Duffs character to hide.

(And in Amestria anyone not working for the government and without authorization can and will be arrested for having a weapon). Key word, foreigners... First the assassens would have to be identified as foreigners (though, as I pointed out once, Allaneans tend to stick out like sore thumbs). There is also the fact that Mckaganese people could be recruited by the Allaneans (as Duff is seeking social transformation I doubt he has a sortage of domestic enemies).

Think about one thing though: Where Duff is. Duff is in Kurora, an IT based city with a population that isn't interested in "hunting." Most people in Kurora don't have guns. Futhermore - to pass as a McKaganite, they have to have proper identification - which is something else the strike team would have to do without setting off alarms.

And actually, Duff doesn't have many domestic enemies. The only people who didn't like him were conservatives (which is hard enough to find in McKagan.) They're busy trying not to get their churches blown up. Also, the political attacks made against the McKagan government would pretty much turn most of them off.

As you pointed out earlier it does not seem in Duffs character to hide.

Ok - so maybe he wouldn't hide. He'd still get protection from the McKagan government.

-snip-

Mckaganese people willing to kill Duff Tratain.

1. People with conservative views who were NOT alienated by Allanea.

2. Families of those Mckaganites who the grungers killed in the campaign against CBBC (it would be reasonable to theorize a few would want vengence).

3. People who would be willing to kill someone for huge amounts of money (hit men, criminals, mercenaries) and not scared of murdering someone rich, famous, and worshiped.

The only people who didn't like him were conservatives (which is hard enough to find in McKagan.) They're busy trying not to get their churches blown up.

See, that's an idea.

During the 1960's, the NRA did a lot of work helping African-Americans organise and defend themselves against the KKK and similar organisations. I'm wondering if the Allaneans could perhaps do the same with the few conservatives you have left - that combined with some original guerilla-warfare stunts?

Think of exploding cellphones, grenades rolling under dance-club doors, guns disguised in grandfather clocks, semi-liquid explosives in toilets, poison, long-range sniping with hunting rifles...

Oh the beauty of having a whole bunch of books on modern warfare.

that combined with some original guerilla-warfare stunts?

You gotta use my favourite then - chunks of sodium into a public swimming pool!!!

As agreed upon earlier this will not become a war RP so that is rather irrelevent.

Even if its not a war, if the McKagan government requests help in any affair be it war, internal conflict or something like a covert incursion into their lands then Yallak will provide it.

1. People with conservative views who were NOT alienated by Allanea.

Which are very hard to come by. Just how does Allanea find and contact these people, too? The conservative population of McKagan is poor and dumb - hardly an effective fighting force.

2. Families of those Mckaganites who the grungers killed in the campaign against CBBC (it would be reasonable to theorize a few would want vengence).

There's also a better chance that they'd be mad that the CBBC forced themselves upon McKagan and wouldn't leave despite the fact that McKagan wasn't helping them AT ALL.

3. People who would be willing to kill someone for huge amounts of money (hit men, criminals, mercenaries) and not scared of murdering someone rich, famous, and worshiped.

I mentioned it somewhere a while back, maybe about the time I made CARE.

During the war between liberals and conervatives around the time Robyn Cavalt was elected, the McKagan government (MISA to be exact,) basically rounded up and incorporated alot of the independent mercenaries on the market. The "private security" business in McKagan is HUGE. Hitmen can't survive financially without being part of Krieta Security International.

The rest of those who are agressive enough to do that are part of the grunge movement.

Another big issue is just how Allanea is going to even FORM this organization. It's unrealistic to think that Allanea can talk to alot of people in McKagan and not have a FEW ultra-patriotic conservatives get paranoid and rat them out to the MNPF. That would effectively plant intelligence forces in the heart of the insurgency force. Futhermore, if the MCID thought that it was someone from overseas they would take it as a major security threat and close off ALL domestic travel into McKagan and start investigating all people there legally.

In conclusion - I fail to see how a LARGE insurgency can be formed without tipping of McKagan and getting the country in lockdown before the whole thing starts rolling: which reinforces my idea that a surgical strike team would be more effective.

Is there Internet in McKagan?

Is there Internet in McKagan?

Yes, but it's heavily monitered. That still doesn't stop someone you try to contact from reporting it. Heck, MORE people that don't want to be part of it would run across the information that way.

And? We would just log in from a different IP and account.

And? We would just log in from a different IP and account.

The McKagan Imperial Security Agency registers everything on the McKagan network. This includes IP changes and the like (which are highly uncommon on a static, High Speed network.) People would still be reporting it. McKagan wouldn't be able to discover that it's Allanea or track it there, but they'd still have a good idea that a terrorist attack is about to happen. That's the point where they'd start questioning everyone who viewed that information, keeping an eye on them, and then (probably) close travel to McKagan.

I'm not saying it's impossible: I'm saying it's unrealistic to believe that you can form a large organization in another country without anyone finding out and reporting it. A large organization will be HARD to support and keep from being infiltrated. It will NOT be very effective or efficient. McKagan would have several informants for every 10 people recruited to it. How could you operate like that?

If you send over a dozen Allanean special forces you don't have to worry about any of that.

If you start sending alot of Allanean's to pose as civilians you risk having a LARGE number of people go on trial in McKagan for terrorism. Their trials would be secret - and the only way Allanea could ask for them back would be by coming out about WHY so many people are in McKagan in the first place.

Hell, the way I see it, the plan could even get discovered by sending people to McKagan in the first place. McKagan and Allanea are two different nations with two VERY different societies. Allanea seems to be very conservative. McKagan is very liberal. I don't see tourism being very great - and when you send over more than just a few people to help out, there WILL be questions asked - especially if Allaneans start getting arrested for terrorism.

....what is your definition of conservative?

Because Allanea has legal prostitution, drugs, daytime pr0n on TV, gay marriage...

Ah, maybe not so conservative then. :p

McKaganites just don't have a good view of Allanea right now. The whole CBBC thing really hurt the image. Plus, McKagan doesn't really have a tourism industry anyway. That's been a project for a while, though.