NationStates Jolt Archive

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/FoxWally/johas-2.jpg

The construction of this complex took just over three years and some 3 billion dollars. It was built with the intent to be a symbol of peace and prosperity. Its beautiful scenery only gives way to a modern beautiful complex within its glass walls.

The intention of this court is to create “rules for war”, settle land disputes peacefully, and prosecute crimes against humanity. It is my full hope that every nation abides by the guidelines that will be created within this complex. If so we can rid the world biological weapons and halt genocide in its tracks as well as thwart an unnecessary war over a minor land dispute. Cooperation, however, is the only way this can succeed.

All cases will be presented by the defendant first to be met with a rebuttal by the prosecutor. Once this is done the floor is open to any nation who wishes to add their opinion. Once the argument is completed, this goes for land disputes, war crimes, etc, I will telegram two nations, not involved but keeping tabs on the situation, and together we will vote to see who is “right” in the case. In accordance with the “ROW” I believe every nation can add to the list, revise it, and finalize it until it is agreeable with the majority.

All nations wishing to participate please reply to this thread. Thank you and it is my hope that this leads to a safer, more peaceful world.


-------------------------------------------------
Issues resolved: 0
Issues debated: 3 = Nuclear Weapons | Biological Weapons | POW
Treaty’s Signed: 0
War Criminals Tried: 0
Land Disputed Ended: 0

Panthean Department of Justice
Panthean Department of Foreign Affairs

To- USB


After witnessing mass genocide and mayhem within are own nation, we feel that by creating a rules to war and halting genocide is a gigantic step forward in the right direction. Unfortunately biological weapons are the greatest benefit to the Panthean Military as of now and a lot easier and cheaper then nuclear weapons. And they provide an easy defense against sudden invasion. So we will not be very please in such a ban. Also we will never partake in an international ban on landmines as those are beneficial to our military as well

All in all, war crimes against humanity and genocide are world concerns. We are interesting in working for this court, as the confederation is a completely neutral player in world affairs with no political agendas and sworn loyalties


President
Vladimir Davion
Panthean Confederation

------------------------------------------------

To- USB
From- World Cultural Institute.


The Johannesburg Court as been reviewed by cultural experts at our institute. Labeling the Johannesburg Court a world wonder is currently pending. Though we have high hopes, as this structure is truly unique and has great potential.(occ- listed under future wonders)

Official Communique

"The Realm takes notice of the newly established court, but will refrain from committing itself to anything at the present time. Perhaps when time proves that this is an endeavour worth while, we shall committ ourselves. For now, we will take up an observation role."

[signed]
The Realm of Cotland

[OOC: AKA TAG!]

To all interested this isnt a commitment. Join in the talks and see how it goes.

Bahrayni Justice Department Public Release (co-released by Defense and Foreign Affairs Departments)

We see much value in having a multinational group to solve debates and work on the many issues facing nations today. Along with disarmament and solving territorial problems, there are issues of extradition, smuggling, and countless other issues to debate. Bahrayn will gladly join, and ask its friends and allies to follow suit.

The Federation will gladly send delegates to assist in this worthwhile endeavor.

-Patriarch Sedaht Rand

COMMONWEALTH OF HIRGIZSTAN

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

MESSAGE

TO: USB


The COH would be most pleased to send several delegates from the Department of Foreign Affairs, the State Department and some other low level officials from other Departments.

COH

[ooc]: Ill start this thread on tuesday. Hopefully we pick up some more people. Tuesday ill be able to put up a good sized post with the details of the project and begin with some baselines to start off from. Remeber this isnt a commiment, although we wish it was. OOCly I hope this will be able to smooth up EII Rp's by eliminating things that are commonly argued over.

The Empire of Layarteb shall continue to remain out of international affairs by means of international law including but not limited to: world courts, "rules of warfare," boundary agreements, and worldwide trade negotiations. The Empire will continue its individual relationships with the various countries of TATO and will not go against the establishment of said court but we shall not recognize its legality over our dominion including people and territory.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs

OOC: I should probably mention that I take the same stance as Lay, but I'm sending some delegates out of interest, but I won't be recognising any International Laws etc.

This thread will be joint OOC and IC. Most of these topics right off the get go are simply to improve the quality of RPing within EII. As must of you know the recent RP’s have had a lot of problems which have compromised the integrity of what would have been a very fun RP. So when reading the below statements keep in mind that this is for the sake of all future RP’s.

With that being said I’ll go balls-to-the-wall so to speak and it the major topics first.

Nuclear and Biological Weapons:
In my viewpoint not only are they horrific weapons but ruin Rp’s for a number of reasons. First off launching a nuke into space would be a feet within itself. The number of countries claiming to have SDI defenses practically makes the world immune but not entirely. EII claims to be realistic yet I don’t think people realize the amount of damage a nuke can do, to the human population that is. It is a weapon of fear and hatred causing deaths long after its use. I believe people are all to willing to use such a devastating force against, for the most part, seemingly innocent civilians.

As for Biological weapons they serve no purpose but fear and hatred. This weapon is simply horrific in its nature.

This is a court system and knowing that most everyone will be totally unwilling to give up their nuclear capabilities I ask you what you think should be done if anything. Perhaps and committee to regulate their use or creation or sanction countries who use them without reason?

Another topic to ponder for today would be the humane or inhumane treatment of civilians during war-time. This was seen most predominantly in Operation: Dammerung where countless civilians lost their lives. I understand there comes a point and time where total war most be implemented (See WWII Germany/ Japan) but the rapid escalation of mass murder was uncalled for and unjust. There needs to be limits to protect the populace to a certain degree. Again I await your thoughts.

I wish for this not to become a bash fest or anything of that nature. Please only leave your comments to the stated questions above. Also more topics will come as this progresses. You too are allowed to post topics you wished to be discussed.

Also note that once this section of the thread is finished I will move into war trials, land settlements in detail.

As for sanctioning nations who use nuclear weapons without justification, there is but one method which has been proven to work: the assurance that if Nation A fires a barrage of nuclear weapons against me, he will get retaliated upon with the same kind of weapons, hence the term "Mutually Assured Destruction". It worked during the Cold War and it works here. The assurance that his nation will be FUBARed if he fires a nuke against me will in nine hundred and ninety-nine out of a thousand cases be sufficient for him to refrain from using nukes in the first place. I maintain a policy of full nuclear retaliation against all strategic as well as tactical targets if I am attacked with nuclear weapons (or any kind of WMDs), whether they be strategic, tactical or suitcase bombs. That in itself is a pretty strong deterrent, and several nations use a similar policy. MAD is alive and kicking.

NBC Weaapons:

I agree that these weapons are something we need to be serious about. They have been threatened on nations far too many times for reasons that are farcical at best. This I hate.
With the biggest nuclear arsenal in E2 I think its my place to say that even threatening to use nukes need some damm serious consideration. I don't think I've ever threatened to use nukes in E2, but I have threatened to shoot down nukes fired from other countries and I stand by this. Nukes pose an awful threat in a world that isn't all that big. Consider things like Chernobyl, that affected people and animals as far away as Wales and it wasn't even a true nuclear explosion.

Consider the use of Enhanced Radiation, which I prefer, if I can say such a thing. The fallout effects are less and the radiation fallout passes much quicker and they cause no structural damage, it spreads much like an invisible gas. But the human, animal and environmental consequences are still serious.

As for biological and chemical weapons, they aren't really used that much on E2 but they have less serious and more controllable consequences than Nuclear weapons.

Having said all this I still would not be willing to give up my NBC weapons as I believe they are an excellent deterrant. I will say though, that a certain amount of responsibility is needed when talking about using about or actually using NBC weapons.

Treatment of Civilians During War:

This, it would appear, has been brought to the fore fairly recently, in both Operation Dammerung and the War on Carthage.
I will not, at all, condemn the conduct of NG's troops in Pantheaa. The civilians were openly hostile and such a reaction could be expected. I just didn't RP the mis-treatment of civilians, I RP'd a different approach, but sometimes attacking civilians that are hostile, is, in my eyes, perfectly justifiable, especially if it helps to cow them or make them fear the troops attacking them.
I did, however, condemn TLS' attacks via non-nuclear ICBM's on the civilian populace in a number of places. This sort of mass attack on a civilian populace not directly involved in the fighting, is in most cases, unacceptable, at least with ICBM's which present a danger of provoking MAD all on their own. The loss of life from this kind of attack is simply incomparable to a soldier shooting a single civilian.

Hirgizstan are you saying that NG's killing of woman and children was justified because of what a handful of insurgents were doing? I don't mind what your answer is, im just wondering

That is a thread for the offsite forums. I will hope that Hirg will not respond to that in order to prevent anything further.

All quite valid response suggesting what I already knew the outcome would be, although I wished for maybe a few more response. Never mind that though. Although MAD works, unfortunately well, it is a rather uncomfortable approach to the situation

Two ideas come to mind each of which I assume will fall on deaf ears. First a collection of countries which are in possession of nuclear weapons regulate their usage. By that I mean list all the countries (or force) to provide any and all information regarding the nuclear capabilities. Also this group would voice heavily their opposition to the usage of nuclear weapons during any said conflict. Hopefully such a strong variety of nations voicing their disdain would be a wise deterrent as well. Herein lies yet another smaller argument. Who would those countries be? The other would be a slight, i repeat slight, isarmament of your nuclear arsenal. If a commission is created they could oversee the disarmament of the rest of the world as well. Less nukes equals less chance of its usage or misusage. I also understand that having no nuclear weapons myself I hold little leverage here, which is why I am asking the world community.

Although no real suggestion was made about bio weapons I once again voice my opinion that banning is a most reasonable response. If your going to kill someone use conventional methods, and yes I know that sounds morbid but so long as there are people there will be bloodshed. Hopefully we can minimize it as much as possible.

Another topic to add to the mix is the treatment of POW. Most of you have conscription as a normal part of life. I’m not here to argue that but rather to bring this point to the table: Is it fair to “force” people into the military and than have some country kill them for being captured. Or better yet I should ask in this form: Is it fair to kill a man who was forced into the uniform he now wears?

A POW is a POW. If he wears a military uniform and is captured then he is a Prisoner of War and will be subject to whatever treatment the nation who has captured him deems necessary. This is regardless of whether he was forced to wear a uniform or not.
Conscription is not forcing someone into the military, only able bodied and generally healthy people are accepted into a conscript Army. In the COH the National Army (A completely separate body from my listed 100% professional military) is conscipt but unless a National Emergency is called they will not be put anywhere near the frontlines. The National Army's role is "to make citizens of the Commonwealth and to provide a healthy attitude to life in general."

In any case a POW is a POW, it really doesn't matter how he came to wear a uniform and bear arms.

Huahin has a number of issues to bring up. Firstly, Huahin has declared the sea between its Artic islands to be internal waters, rather than international waters. Any objections?

Secondly, the what is the Empire of Layateb doing to crack down on the narcotics trade in the Carribean?

Thirdly, what are peoples views on Antartica, and the stationing of military units there?

And lastly, weapons in space, are they to be tolerated?

As for sanctioning nations who use nuclear weapons without justification, there is but one method which has been proven to work: the assurance that if Nation A fires a barrage of nuclear weapons against me, he will get retaliated upon with the same kind of weapons, hence the term "Mutually Assured Destruction". It worked during the Cold War and it works here. The assurance that his nation will be FUBARed if he fires a nuke against me will in nine hundred and ninety-nine out of a thousand cases be sufficient for him to refrain from using nukes in the first place. I maintain a policy of full nuclear retaliation against all strategic as well as tactical targets if I am attacked with nuclear weapons (or any kind of WMDs), whether they be strategic, tactical or suitcase bombs. That in itself is a pretty strong deterrent, and several nations use a similar policy. MAD is alive and kicking.
Yes but MAD was/is a bilateral thing. If a Warsaw Pact country nuked a NATO country, it could expect to get nuked by only another NATO country. Are you saying, that if, say, I used nukes against Dweldelfia Prime, it would be justified for you to fire a nuke at me, even if DP is not your ally? Sorry if I've got the wrong idea.

[OOC: I would only launch nukes against you if you started by attacking me or my allies (TOA).]

Firstly, Huahin has declared the sea between its Artic islands to be internal waters, rather than international waters. Any objections?
The Realm will continue to view the seas between those artic islands as international water and treat it as such. We refer to §§ 14 - 16 in the Protection of the Realm Act for further information as to the Realms policy.
Secondly, the what is the Empire of Layateb doing to crack down on the narcotics trade in the Carribean?
That is a question Huahin would have to discuss with the Empire of Layarteb. As for the Cottish isles in the Caribbean: the Realm maintains the death penalty for drug smugglers and drug dealers. While we had an exceptionally large amount of hangings in the first few years of our rule, the drug smugglers pretty much refrain from entering Cottish territorial waters. Should they do so, the Royal Cottish Navy, Royal Cottish Air Force and Royal Cottish Coast Guard as well as various civilian agencies will hunt them down and eliminate the threat they pose to the civil health and order of the Realm.
Thirdly, what are peoples views on Antartica, and the stationing of military units there?
The Realm have no qualms about placing military forces in Antartica, as long as their presence will have no effect on the icecaps covering the continent and subsequently the sea temperatures and world climate in general.
And lastly, weapons in space, are they to be tolerated?
The Realm currently maintains no weapons or orbit of the planet Earth, but we do have plans to place orbital weapons platforms into orbit on the drawing board. If the plans become a reality, however, is a completely different story.

[signed]
The Realm of Cotland

[OOC: I would only launch nukes against you if you started by attacking me or my allies (TOA).]
OOC - Ahh I see. *Points nukes away from Layarteb* :p

The Realm will continue to view the seas between those artic islands as international water and treat it as such. We refer to §§ 14 - 16 in the Protection of the Realm Act for further information as to the Realms policy.

The islands in question are extremely close together, and are to be treated as internal waters. However, there is a route which may be taken by certain nations. Current nations allowed include all members of Pacifinesia, RC and TOA. Other nations must apply to have their vessels on the allowed list. The route is shown here (http://www.bouletfermat.com/backgrounds/canada_circa_1900/canadian_arctic_map_c1900_1600x1200.jpg). Ships may pass through Banks Strait, through the northern part of Melville Sound, then through Barrow Straight and Lancaster Sound.


That is a question Huahin would have to discuss with the Empire of Layarteb. As for the Cottish isles in the Caribbean: the Realm maintains the death penalty for drug smugglers and drug dealers. While we had an exceptionally large amount of hangings in the first few years of our rule, the drug smugglers pretty much refrain from entering Cottish territorial waters. Should they do so, the Royal Cottish Navy, Royal Cottish Air Force and Royal Cottish Coast Guard as well as various civilian agencies will hunt them down and eliminate the threat they pose to the civil health and order of the Realm.

We commend Cotland's actions.


The Realm have no qualms about placing military forces in Antartica, as long as their presence will have no effect on the icecaps covering the continent and subsequently the sea temperatures and world climate in general.

Huahin wishes to demilitarise its secion of Antartica, but nothing can be achieved without the agreement of DP.

The Realm currently maintains no weapons or orbit of the planet Earth, but we do have plans to place orbital weapons platforms into orbit on the drawing board. If the plans become a reality, however, is a completely different story.

The majority of Huahin's space assets were recently destroyed by Doomingsland, however, a new Fractional Orbital Bombardment System is ready to be launched.

What is Huahin's maritime territorial claim? We shall respect that claim, provided that it isn't excessive. Any waters outside of the territorial water claim shall be considered international waters by the Realm and traversed at will.

[signed]
The Realm of Cotland

All waters between the islands is considered territorial waters, but the usual maritime territorial claim is 12 nautical miles.

I generally think Space/Orbital Weapons systems are a shady area. I have EMP satellites but thats about it. My SAAMDS satellites and Modules ustilise lasers to shoot down ICBM's across the globe, but they can also protect themselves from anti-satellite missiles. I personally don't see this as an offensive weapon, but others might, and this is where things always get shady when talking about orbital weapons, whether they are offensive/defensive or just plain nuts.

I must agree that orbital weapons are quite shady and touch on FT. SDI defenses are quite understandable in my opinion. I would personally call God Mod on certain aspects of that but that is a topic for later in this thread. Don’t worry ill keep a list as to come back to it.

As for POW’s I have to disagree with Hirg that is if he means it is ok to treat them unfairly. Rule should be set in place to protect those captured by the opposing side even if they are the minimum. Shelter, food, and medical supplies should be a commonplace seeing as how every country here can afford those things. A foundation much like the RL Red Cross should be created in order to make sure they meet the standards set during this discussion. They are human beings and should be treated with respect.

As I mentioned before my “standards” would be quality shelter, food, and medical supplies. Mail should be able to flow, although censorship is allowed (because who can stop you). Death should be a last resort in light of punishments. Failure to meet those would result in crimes against humanity trials here at the courts. Remember, that is what I think. I need your views.

If you think about it this would help more than it would hurt you. Thinking that if the enemy surrendered to you they would be treated fairly would make them more like to go through with it. However if they no death and torture await them, than the normal thing to do is fight to the death.

POW are a part of war you cannot avoid. Simply killing and torturing them is low, cowardly and a crime against humanity.

I am still looking on solutions to the nuclear problem. I have mentioned some in my earlier post and would like more feedback on that. That goes for Chemical and Biological Weapons as well.

Please Note: I will keep three topics out at once. When one is finished I will add another one. If you wish to add a topic please TG me about it and I will add in when I can.

I would personally be in favour of establishing some international laws, so long as they pertain to rules of international conduct and don't infringe on any nation's sovereignty.

Breaking these laws would constitute an international offence and fall under the jurisdiction of the court.

I think, too, that any international court should be on international soil, as it were. Establish a territory somewhat analogous to the American D.C. or Australian A.C.T. Any offences committed there could fall under the jurisdiction of the nation whose citizen was offended against, but no one should hold sovereign control of the court itself.

Treatment of POWS-

I would concur with USB that you should not kill someone merely cause he was fighting for his or her homeland. Or in some nations a person has the choice of fight for our nation or face death. Genocide in POW camps would lead to anger among the population and help surge uprisings. POW's are also needed to help gather information, if they know that you are going to kill them, they aren’t going to talk. However, we have no problem with executing certain officers or officers who used their rank to harm civilians.

Weapons in Space-

We would be against any kind of weapon that would do harm. Space is something that can not be claimed, in a sense it belongs to every nation. Therefore their shouldn't be any weapon that would be used to invade or destroy. It is a public domain. However, defensive weapons such as lasers that can shoot down ICBM's, spy satellites, tracking satellites, and other shields are acceptable as they can't harm anybody.

If you'll look closely I said nothing about torturing POW's or denying them certain things, I said if they are POW's then they are subject to the conditions that the nation who has taken them prisoner deems necessary.
Policies in the COH differ according to the situation, mass killing of POW's is counter-productive in most cases, but I would not even think about providing them such things as mail or visitation rights, such things are luxuries. Basic rations and basic medical supplies are all they need.
However, if a nation were to deny people even these and would kill their POW's, I would not say anything unless it was my POW's, in which case I would say something but I would understand the reasoning.

I think, too, that any international court should be on international soil, as it were. Establish a territory somewhat analogous to the American D.C. or Australian A.C.T. Any offences committed there could fall under the jurisdiction of the nation whose citizen was offended against, but no one should hold sovereign control of the court itself.
I volunteer Huahin's Monaco for this purpose.

The Court has already been constructed in Johannesburg, in the heart of the city at that. However, it was agreed by before hand by President Baruti that the complex and its surroundings are to be considered international territory much like the same way embassies are considered.

In response to Hirgizstan’s comments I agree that mail was a stretch and I didn’t even mention visitation because like Hirg I agree that that is too far. My main goal here is to guarantee the protection of POWs by giving them adequate shelter, food, and medical supplies. Enough so that they are not in a desperate struggle to survive. I believe that is the main issue. As I said before it isn’t like a nation can’t afford it as seen with some countries vast trade surpluses, defense budgets, and just the amount of money in trillions that they have. So I again re-suggest my Committee. Groups much like the Red Cross that will inspect POW camps and make sure they are up to standards and provide those previous three things.

If your mentality is that if I were to mass kill my POW than it was because they did the same or have killed civilians, etc. If that be the case than this court (as previously designated) will, in all hopes, be able to put those men responsible on trial and that is where you will get your revenge.

Please post your solutions to the above argument.

I again ask for your thoughts on a solution for the overuse of nuclear weapons in EII as well. I have in earlier post made suggestions on that topic and would like feedback.

Finally I hold fast on my stance that Bio/Chem weapons should be banished or at least from the battlefield (which would make having them pointless)

I wouldn't allow an organisation like the Red Cross into my POW camps, it would violate my sovereignty as a nation.
As for nuclear weapons, the only solution is to rely on the fact that radiation spreads vast distances without regard for national borders. For example, if a nuclear weapon was fired at a nation near mine, the radiation would affect my nation, thus I could not allow the nuclear weapon to reach its destination. Thats the only guarantee.
As for Chem and Bio weapons, I wouldn't give mine up.

I am, not however, being stubborn for the hell of it, I follow realist-isolationist ideology and policies- international courts etc conflict with this ideology.

The Federation will not be in favor of liquidating biological and chemical weapons.

In the past the Federation’s use of chemical agents, specifically the anesthetic Hallonacht has saved countless lives, both innocent and combatant.

Other biological agents, specifically prion related have to potential to save lives as well. A prion that would be capable of infecting and destroying heavy foliage, for instance could be a healthy alternative to carpet bombing or massive fires; means which also destroy human life unlike the previous biological alternative.

ooc: I do believe we should place limits on how much damage biological or chemical agents could cause however. Some of these substances, especially the ones used against TLS had ridiculous effects. Maybe this could also serve as a court to determine if certain weapons are even possible, or maybe one should be created.

As for the rights of POW: The Federation believes certain rights are not inalienable but instead must be earned.

We do not believe it is an inalienable right for healthy, able-bodied POWs to obtain sustenance freely. It makes little sense that our beloved citizens work to earn not merely their food but the countless luxuries available within Bjornoya, but a foreign POW gets their daily nutrients without earning it.

We do recognize the predicament foreign POW are in, and known we must supply them with the appropriate conditions to work if our system is to be practical and humane.

The Federation agrees with the spirit of the court when it wishes to place some order into how we punish the most monstrous of humanity. However, the Federation also looks at the practicality of implementing any restrictions to how a nation should go about first defining criminality in regards to combat situations, and second how a nation should punish criminals.

To wrap up a few things so that we can move on because little progress is being made much to my chagrin.

@ Bjorn, I would think with a nation that controls their media so well that the point you made would not be of much a concern. (Hope that didn’t sound mean, it was not indented to)

@ Hirg, name one use for chemical or biological weapons that is humane (not including those used to Bjornoya. Now I shouldn’t say humane because when is war humane, I should say when is it necessary to use that instead of conventional warfare?

When I made the banning of Chemical/Biological weapons I did not mean those that do not cause death. I remember reading their use in Dammerung and was quite impressed. I would even go as far as to say that those sorts of tactics should be implored whenever possible to minimize casualties and later indifferences so long as the nation using uses them responsible and makes certain nobody is harmed (rape) afterwards.

I urge all nations reading to understand this isn’t to intrude upon your nation’s sovereignty but rather protect human rights and ease the hostile tensions around the globe.

OOC: It was my intentions to make this a Hague / Geneva Convention sort of thing if that makes it any clearer.

As I thought before the Nuclear Weapons is a very touchy subject. However I do believe a committee of countries can regulate their creation and distribution. It is up to those who posses the power to not abuse it but rather control it. I again urge your thoughts on this.

To define a war criminal would in most cases be up to the victors of a conflict as it always has. However I do believe if the general masses agree on a candidate then it is up to the rest of the world to bring him into these courts.

I finally urge any nations reading to encourage others to join. The more the merrier.

OOC: If you guys want, when you get everything written up I can convert it to a PDF and you guys can save it somwhere or something (if you want).

Yeah, that sounds good. So is this going to turn into some kind of UN?

Chemical Weapons can be used for a number of things, to knock out civilians/soldiers (not kill them), or to actually kill them. These weapons are useful in sieges and hostage situations. Chemical an Biological weapons are also useful defoliants, and chemical/bio weapons in general are much more of a potent deterrant than nuclear weapons, in my belief, as chem/bio weapons could be used more readily without the after-effects of a nuclear bomb.

Right off the get go I would like to answer the UN question with a subtle response: Hell No.

As said before weapons (bio) that do not kill or harm anyone are fine it is those that cause a horrific death. Your answer begs the question why do civilians need to be killed. I understanding targeting places where civilians work such as factories but the usage to just eliminate them and nothing else is quite barbaric and would, in my mind, fall under war crimes. With that being said I find it that conventional missiles would do the same job with less collateral damage in a far more control manner.

Again I ask for opinions on the Nuclear Committee and POW’s.

I ask all nations to not be as stubborn as this is meant OOCly to smooth rp’s as seen these are common OOC problems. I feel as though some sacrifices have to be made in order to stop OOC bitching.

I don't think giving up chemical weapons wouldd make RP's go smoother. Everyone I've come across uses, for their chem/bio weapons, well documented types- VX, Ebola Zaire, Small Pox, Agent Orange, Agent Green, Sarin Gas etc etc. The effects cannot really be BS'd all that much or else it would be noticable.
There is also no such thing as War Crimes in E2 because War Crimes are an RL thing, put about by such organizations as the UN and the Hague, and even if their was one in E2 I would not adhere to them, realism does no permit it.

As I thought before the Nuclear Weapons is a very touchy subject. However I do believe a committee of countries can regulate their creation and distribution.


But who would be in this committee?

Much to my Chagrin we are getting everywhere but somewhere. With this in mind I have decided to take a break from our current topics and move onto something else for the time being.

To answer the question above: It depends. I would like to have a member of each alliance be a part of this or better yet 4 nations of dominating stature that are not closely related. Although I’m not quite sure how it would play out so that remains in the air.

My next movement is this, which as been brought up in Sparta’s recent doings: Slavery. I think we can all agree that in modern times this practice is extremely inhumane. Seeing as how this isn’t the UN with a peace keeping force our hands are somewhat tied. I would like to hear your opinions on the matter or your views on slavery. It is my hope that after this war has concluded itself that we can end slavery on EII for good so at least we can have that much going for us.

I will, for the time being, send a telegram to Doomingsland asking for his cooperation in this matter.

Next on my mind is the recent and upcoming FIFA World Cup. A wonderful endeavor as it is, it could be a prime location for a security breach putting millions in jeopardy. I would like to seek out what I call “FIFA Security Consul” which would be, much a like a nuclear regulatory committee, be a group of participating countries that would act as a deterrent to any nation or persons wishing to threaten the games. One must realize that this group would, if the cause of an attack was revealed and confirmed, go to war or wage missions against the perpetrator. As said before the origin of this attack would have to be confirmed however as not to foolishly get these nations tangled into something.

Going back to the Nuclear thing I again ask for your opinions about a “Nuclear Regulatory Agency” Add your opinions, what you think should or shouldn’t be done, etc.

Finally for this update I would like to put forth an idea I had. I was thinking what if for war we created a point system. It would have to be very detailed but it would incorporate things such as terrain, weather, troop strength, etc. This would allow for a smoother RP in that people would start thinking strategically and not first person as well as let people know who is winning and loosing. Of course rules would be needed to make sure the larger countries didn’t simply dominate smaller ones with numbers. Just an idea.

I support the slavery thing. And the world cup idea.

Sorry if I'm interupting, but Helots aren't slaves. Now, their more like 3rd class citizens. They can vote, though not be voted for, they still like to live in smaller towns on the outskirts of large cities(farther from Perioikoi and Spartiate/Equals), and once a month can be pulled from their jobs for other work.

So Helots are like the Lower Castes in India? Only in SD they don't have the same benefits? (Maybe they do, I am only guessing.)

The Divine Empire of Kreynoria will maintain its arsenal of biological weapons regardless of the court's decision. We maintain the right as a sovereign nation to govern ourselves without interference from outside nations or bodies. These weapons are a necessary deterrant to the Empire as we have rejected nuclear weaponry.

We wish to know of the Court's position on Doomingsland's mass murder of Helots in Sparta using Chemical Weapons.

That is a two way street. Yes, obviously we condemn the usage of Chemical Weapons and yes if the man responsible was brought here for trial chances are he would soon meet his creator. However, the Helots are no better off than slaves and slavery is also condemnable in this court’s eyes.

Still nobody here agrees with anything the court wishes to change and therefore we have no authority or leverage what so ever. Powerless is a good word to describe this.

Everyone enjoys killing, not saving.

The organisers of the Helot Massacre will be brought to justice in these courts.

I don't think any civilians were harmed in Doomanum's bombing, just military personal. And military personal are suppose to be protected and trained for such incidents. Although the use of NBC was wrong of Doomingsland, it should also be said that he avoided hurting civilians and instead targeted those who invaded his country

Second off all I don’t think the agreement of bio/chem weapons has been writing in stone. Isn’t still being debated? So how can you charge Doomingsland with a crime when one hasn’t been written yet?

The biggest concern of the court should be safe grounding civilians…not telling nations how to fight their wars, that’s just world wide communism!

Indeed, I 100% support Doomingsland's actions against enemy troops. Those actions were justified and I applaud their effectiveness.
Huahin, you are being mercenary with your thoughts here. If Doom had done the same thing to one of your enemies you would be applauding him, but he is your enemy so you condemn him- perfectly natural for a realist state, but you can't hope to gain support in a court such as this, as those mercenary ideals are too easily exposed.

Pantheaa is also correct in his statements.

I'm just acting IC.

The has come to the decision where the Johannesburg Court will, for the time being, halt the development of rules for warfare. With every country claming not to fall under a “spell” there is little we can do. However the Court remains open to prosecute War Criminals, peace talks, and land disputes.

Furthermore, the court does denounce Doomingsland’s actions of using lethal gas regardless that it was on troops not civilians. However denouncing is about the only thing we can do at this point. It was hoped that countries would be more into human rights but apparently we were dead wrong, no pun intended.
To answer Panth’s question he would be brought and tried therefore it would be up to the rest of the world community to decide.

However I would like to nominate the following countries for the FIFA Security Consul:Layarteb, Kreynoria, and Bjornoya. Not included would be the host country. These three countries would work together by using their influence to deter any outside force that would wish to disrupt the games.

Next I would like to nominate the following countries for the Nuclear Regulatory Agency: Hirgizstan, Rome, Marimia, Layarteb. In order for this to work I would be known that Nuclear Missiles can be kept under the condition to be used only as a defense measure against a similar threat. These countries would not allow a Nuclear Missile to be fired into the atmosphere as well as keep a detailed record of who has such capabilities or better yet who should have them.

Also, if anyone from the Pacific War is reading, this would be a prime location to begin peace talks as it is a neutral country and this is what this court was primarily built for.

OOC: Why the change of heart Panth?

To the Johannesburg Courts:

For whatever our word may be valued, the Grand Duchy of Saint Lazare is a strong supporter of international diplomacy and justice. We are extremely delighted to see other nations and organizations interested in this most daring venture to promote and insure justice. We are dismayed to see the opinions of your court being trounced by nations with no regard to the order of international law and honorable treaties and agreements with other nations. For this reason, we fear the world and the ultimate possibility that clamitous ends may yet erupt from ignoring these vital standards of international conduct. Nonetheless, the Duchy would like to submit its signature to the proceedings of the Court in Johannesburg, as the ultimate authority of justice in the world. We pray that the proceedings will just and unbiased in future dealings.

Hereby, from this moment forward to posterity,I, Grand Duke Albert Roumillet of Saint Lazare -formerly Monaco - concede to the rulings and the decisions of this international body of justice.

Most Respectfully,

Grand Duke Albert Roumillet

Official Imperial Statement

We find this court to be, with the exception of a few (you know who you are), totally incompetant and unworthy of defining anything remotely similar to the concept of 'international law'. Its threats against our glorious Imperator's well-being can be interpereted as an open threat against the Imperium as a whole.

Thus being said, the government of the Imperium Doomanum hereby denounces and condemns the Johannesburg kangaroo Courts as an affront to God and mankind as a whole. Any attempt by the Johanessburg Courts to harm any Imperial citizens shall be treated as an Act of War by said courts.

The Imperium Doomanum does not recognize any authority supposedly held by this Court and shall refuse to recognize any of its pathetic "laws" that it may pass.

As much as I deplore the actions of Doomingsland not so much on a humanitarian level but on an economic level (waste of semi-valuable human resources, and ooc simple bad RP move to use chemical warfare against an active player who oocly does not have the brains to defend himself, overkill is simply bad taste, no suspense to the story) the court should be concentrating instead on the conditions which allowed for this destruction in the first place, namely Sparta Dominions use of slavery or near slave conditions.

The Federation has already stated in the past and will continue to denounce the deplorable conditions within the territory of Sparta Dominion. If the court truly cares about the well being of Sparta's citizens it would take action to make sure after the collapse of Sparta Dominions' government a new and more just leadership is emplaced to avoid these regrettable situations in the first place.

In regards to Peacekeeping at recreational events the Federation trains the best Peacekeepers in the world and would be more than happy to ensure the civility and security of the masses at any sporting events.

Official Imperial Statement

We find this court to be, with the exception of a few (you know who you are), totally incompetant and unworthy of defining anything remotely similar to the concept of 'international law'. Its threats against our glorious Imperator's well-being can be interpereted as an open threat against the Imperium as a whole.

Thus being said, the government of the Imperium Doomanum hereby denounces and condemns the Johannesburg kangaroo Courts as an affront to God and mankind as a whole. Any attempt by the Johanessburg Courts to harm any Imperial citizens shall be treated as an Act of War by said courts.

The Imperium Doomanum does not recognize any authority supposedly held by this Court and shall refuse to recognize any of its pathetic "laws" that it may pass.

OOC: this is precisely what Rome would not say... what the hell is going on anyway? Who's in charge over there?

OOC: this is precisely what Rome would not say... what the hell is going on anyway? Who's in charge over there?
OOC:We've decided to hold off on unification until after the Pacific war.

As much as I deplore the actions of Doomingsland not so much on a humanitarian level but on an economic level (waste of semi-valuable human resources, and ooc simple bad RP move to use chemical warfare against an active player who oocly does not have the brains to defend himself, overkill is simply bad taste, no suspense to the story) the court should be concentrating instead on the conditions which allowed for this destruction in the first place, namely Sparta Dominions use of slavery or near slave conditions.

The Federation has already stated in the past and will continue to denounce the deplorable conditions within the territory of Sparta Dominion. If the court truly cares about the well being of Sparta's citizens it would take action to make sure after the collapse of Sparta Dominions' government a new and more just leadership is emplaced to avoid these regrettable situations in the first place.

The Grand Duke agrees with the latter comments, regarding setting up conditions for a proper and most respectable society. It is without a doubt a human tragedy every time a young man get sent over the wire to perform violence at the bidding of a madman who cares little for the welfare of his people. We would join the Federation in condemning these conditions.

Actually Alif, you seem to believe people are being stubborn here because they despise the courts or something, quite untrue. I, in fact, am Allied with USB, but I also operate a realist-isolationist policy and ideology, as do most other nations that are successful in E2, thus a court such as this serves no purpose but obstruction.

Actually Alif, you seem to believe people are being stubborn here because they despise the courts or something, quite untrue. I, in fact, am Allied with USB, but I also operate a realist-isolationist policy and ideology, as do most other nations that are successful in E2, thus a court such as this serves no purpose but obstruction.

[ooc: hopefully, i dont get mis-interpreted but I don't believe people are stubborn because they despise the courts. I think it's a fabulous idea, and I just want to express my devout faith in the idea. Despite the geographical limitations of my country, I wish to develop into a intensely global diplomatic and commercial center, to spawn a sense of global peace. You say that you're a realist; I'll go to the idealist camp.]

ooc: I as well am allied to USB but also know from experience nothing will be changed unless the courts pull a huge army outta their ass (lost, meandering Pantheaans->uber army of international Justice?) or hire Superman...

I do also take note though that mere opinions are capable of changing others' course of action for better or worse, try for better. The difference between a 'rule' and a 'guideline.'

ooc: I as well am allied to USB but also know from experience nothing will be changed unless the courts pull a huge ass army outta their ass (lost, meandering Pantheaans->uber army of international Justice?) or hire Superman...

I do also take note though that mere opinions are capable of changing others' course of action for better or worse, try for better. The difference between a 'rule' and a 'guideline.'

[ooc: hopefully, someday that will happen :)]

The Court wishes to greatly thank the Grand Duke in his loyalty to the court. It is as welcomed as a breath of fresh air. Hopefully we can work together to eventually achieve the goals set forth in this court.

Unfortunately Superman is booked for Superman 2: The sequel although he did sound interested and creating a peace keeping force would turn this into the union and make it one step closer to what everyone is so afraid of, even me, and international governing body.

We would also like to thank Doomingsland for his mature response and would like to add that the Johannesburg Court is not a single country but rather an international organization. The lands in which the Court is built are considered, like embassies, international territory. I would also like to bring your statement to the attention of your population who would take kindly to the fact that their leaders care little for humanity.

I must also agree with Bjornoya that the slavery implored in Sparta is likewise inhumane and again if brought to court would face the world in its decision. Thus, with that being said, we find ourselves as a peculiar state that being one wrong for another. The only way this court would be able to issue some sort of power in regards to War Crimes or Rules of War would be international cooperation of which we have little.

Finally, thank you Bjornoya for your approval, it was because of your famed Peacekeeping that I nominated you.

OOC: Yes Hirg and Bjorn are both allied to me but a little debate never hurt an alliance. Works as sort of a checks and balances gig.

Official Imperial Response

The Imperial Government is fully aware of the Johannesburg Courts' position as an international organization. However, history has proven time and time again that international organizations are not exempt from the ability to wage war in the form of terrorism.

The Doomani people have also expressed their unwavering support of our glorious Imperator's smiting of the invading barbarians. They understand that such measures are nessessary for the protection of their well-being and of their land. Make no mistake, the people are far more concerned over the protection of their families than the protection of an invading army seeking to do harm to them.

What's wrong with an international governing organization?

Alif, you think the UN works then?

I don't think it works now, because people ignore their commitments to the principles to which they agreed when they joined/founded the UN. I think it's important to give more authority to the decisions provided by the UN, regardless of who is making the decision and to whom the decision affects.

It might be the vices of human corruption that make it flawed, but I don't think it's any error to try... :)

Indeed it is corruption, but its also a flawed concept. The Leauge of Nations proved that, quite how the UN has survived for so long I don't know, but it will not be around forver, believe that. It is based on idealism, i.e. foundless dreams, while the world operates in a realist tradition, the two ideas can never be reconciled.

Idealism may have its flaws, but realism has its flaws as well, since most of the real today began with just a dream.

The League of Nations failed for the same reason that the UN is failing - no authority behind it to support its decisions. Give the tiger claws and he mauls just like the rest of them.

Even if the UN had claws it wouldn't mall anyone, they couldn't organise a fuck in a brothel for goodness sake, never mind try and decide on major issues, such as who gets what bribe from what UN charity.

Sorry for the lack of response, I lost my computer due to monitor problems of which are being sorted out. I’ll be back to normal posting mode in 3-5 business days. Go Dell. So for now my post will most likely be short and sweet. Or maybe long, typing on a laptop feels and sounds really cool, like I’m in mission impossible or some such but now I am just rambling so…

To settle that not so heated debate over the UN…well it’s pointless this is a shame because in theory it has so much potential. Potential without balls is useless, like democrats. Hiyo!

I was thinking about creating a Red Cross Organization. Now don’t go shooting it down before it leaves the hanger let me explain. They would not waltz into your prison camps or such. Their main objective would be to provide aid to worn torn countries as well as a usage for land take over by means of peace instead of military force. Not all countries fear takeover or such. So instead of wasting military assets and money simply call in the Red Cross and they will provide the relief while your stabilize your government. Also for the war torn deal they would just work behind the front lines to aid civilians if the country called for them.

Hopefully, and Bjorn feel free to correct me, it would help my economy as well. Businesses would provide supplies and donations while providing jobs to create the excess goods. Also jobs would become available for those wishing to join the Red Cross. Hopefully this would also have a positive affect on crime rates. Just an idea, tell me what you think. Oh yes patent pending.

Further more to add to what Bjorn said about Nukes in anarchy we could also add that to the Nuclear Regulatory Committee. They would be in charge of creating a list to know how many nukes there should be as well as to secure them in the event a country can no longer provide the security for them.

Please let other people know this is going on. I’ve dropped the Rules for War but I’d still love feedback from different people.

Bumped

USB, if this turns into a World Court or something, awesome, I fully endorse it. You can have a small forum off-site if you want if it becomes one. I say go gradual with it but you are doing a bang-up job on it.

That is indeed what i had in mind, that is if everyone would care to RP with it. People have a hard time understanding defeat. O'well, an Offsite Forum i dont believe would be needed unless for OOC talk. Thanks for the offer though.

"Bang up job" thats a good thing right? If so thank you very much. I would still love more feedback from people.

That is indeed what i had in mind, that is if everyone would care to RP with it. People have a hard time understanding defeat. O'well, an Offsite Forum i dont believe would be needed unless for OOC talk. Thanks for the offer though.

"Bang up job" thats a good thing right? If so thank you very much. I would still love more feedback from people.

Aye it is a good thing. As far as the forum, I mean for the future, and that's up to you. If you ever change your mind it would not be a problem.

Hopefully, and Bjorn feel free to correct me, it would help my economy as well. Businesses would provide supplies and donations while providing jobs to create the excess goods. Also jobs would become available for those wishing to join the Red Cross. Hopefully this would also have a positive affect on crime rates. Just an idea, tell me what you think. Oh yes patent pending.

Hmm... Visara played this role in a less utilitarian and more capitalist nature to good effect during the Pantheaan shebang. As for crime rate depending on how the organization is structured yes it could drastically reduce crime but there are only so many ways; the Salvation Army (also operating from Bjornoya) was incredibly succesful in not only helping the impoverished get to a point where they could become somewhat productive members of society but also converted thousands of the worst people; criminals, prositutes, and homeless to their cause giving them both purpose and something better to do with their time. In the past and much today religious groups tend to do the best in such endeavors.

As for economy not so sure; as far as the costs vs. revenue you are paying for a lot of people and supplies to go to refugees and the like; the revenue received is a warm fuzzy feeling in your tummy (well, if you do it right you can reduce crime, get better international relations, and perhaps do better business but the correlation is obscure) Most direct way is to do what Visara did and hire the refugees to do work rather cheap (but fairly) until they can return home again. If the organization is run more in the spirit of the Marshall Plan rather than the spirit of the Treaty of Versaille it could be worth it in the long run.

putting aside the idealist attitude for a moment, you'd really need a way to get force behind the proceedings of the Johannesburg courts, or else it's just like the GA or ICJ making demands [sometimes even the SC]. Somehow, by agreeing to the conventions of this court, you'd have to make the parties guarantee to agree by its conventions...

That said [idealist again], I'd be delighted :)

Bumpity

We look at the Johannesburg Courts as not laws, but guidelines. Furthermore The Red Cross, just supporting torn nations ect., we think is a good idea.:)

Also, if someone voluntarily put their armed force in to enforce rules (without quitting at the last minute), that would help a lot.

If what happens is what I envisioned than there shouldn’t be a need for one particular army. What would need to happen is for every nation to, more or less, agree on the layout therefore every nation enforces it themselves, more or less. If one nation seems to get out of line who has agreed to it the other nations should, more or less, get them back in line somehow.