NationStates Jolt Archive

Felsenburg, Wolfensland (Wings Magazine) --- Today Dr. Heinrich von Braun, the head of the Technologic Division of Wolfensland's biggest aircraft manufacturer, Focke-Wulf Flugzeugwerke AG, announced that the world's first hydrogen-powered aircraft is almost ready to fly. According to Dr. von Braun, the company, together with the Luftwaffe's Spezieller Projekt-Abschnitt (Special Projects Section), has been working on this project for about 7 years, and now the aircraft is almost ready to fly. "We have the production model ready. The test flights should start next week. We expect to obtain the Luftwaffe certification by the end of this year", said a Focke-Wulf inside source. No specs have been released yet, but it seems that the aircraft will replace the fleet of F-16CJs flying with the Luftwaffe. According to inside sources, Focke-Wulf is also working on a short-to-medium range civilian transport aircraft, to be annnounced on the next quarter.

The aircraft critics are probably gonna take you apart, but it's a novel idea.
I'm certainly looking forward to the details.

Official Statement: Czardaian Ministry of Sarcasm and Other Higher Forms of Wit

Good luck.

~ Random Underling

OOC: You do realise this is not much of a technological achievement considering the shuttle engines do the same thing? The reason why there are not any hydrogen-powered aircrafts is because 1) Hydrogen is more expensive than oil, 2) hydrogen requires a lot of volume and space to hold because of its low density. Its not practical for an aircraft unless you don't want any range and you don't mind having room for weapons or advanced avionics.

OOC: You do realise this is not much of a technological achievement considering the shuttle engines do the same thing? The reason why there are not any hydrogen-powered aircrafts is because 1) Hydrogen is more expensive than oil, 2) hydrogen requires a lot of volume and space to hold because of its low density. Its not practical for an aircraft unless you don't want any range and you don't mind having room for weapons or advanced avionics. OOC: Hydrogen is a fluid, so it can be compressed. so, why not compress it for more space?

Felsenburg, Wolfensland (Wings Magazine) --- Today Dr. Heinrich von Braun, the head of the Technologic Division of Wolfensland's biggest aircraft manufacturer, Focke-Wulf Flugzeugwerke AG, announced that the world's first hydrogen-powered aircraft is almost ready to fly.

And here we were thinking our spaceplanes and the American space shuttle were powered by hydrogen. Silly us. I guess these guys must have mastered time travel too.

Berliston Aerospace, Space Division

And here we were thinking our spaceplanes and the American space shuttle were powered by hydrogen. Silly us. I guess these guys must have mastered time travel too.

Berliston Aerospace, Space Division Well that's because you're in FT.

Well that's because you're in FT.

Yes... The magical year of 2010... Using hydrogen-powered engines that have been availible since the 80s... Definetly future tech.

Yes... The magical year of 2010... Using hydrogen-powered engines that have been availible since the 80s... Definetly future tech. OOC: Ok then, well he's probably in a different year than you. You know, like 2006. Oh, and 2010 IS the future. Not far in the future, but it's still future! Yea, like PMT.

OOC: Ok then, well he's probably in a different year than you. You know, like 2006. Oh, and 2010 IS the future. Not far in the future, but it's still future! Yea, like PMT.

The fact that my spaceplanes are based on technology that exists now makes that somewhat irrelevant...

The fact that my spaceplanes are based on technology that exists now makes that somewhat irrelevant... OOC: Aaaand this technology would be?

OOC: Hydrogen is a fluid, so it can be compressed. so, why not compress it for more space?

Because compressing requires equipment which adds more bulk. A waste of space and weight that could be just used for more regular gasoline. Why else has hydrogen aircrafts not been implented in aircrafts?

Because compressing requires equipment which adds more bulk. A waste of space and weight that could be just used for more regular gasoline. Why else has hydrogen aircrafts not been implented in aircrafts? OOC: Good point.

OOC: Aaaand this technology would be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_shuttle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet_Programs

OOC: Yeah, but the shuttle don't use turbofans, you know...And i actually MIGHT have found a way to work the storage issues out. Check this link: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
My aircraft is built using the same basic principles.

EADS plans on building a hydrogen powered aircraft soon. One of the advantages of hydrogen over regular gasoline is the weight. At least that's the way i think. It's like 4 times lighter than oil-based fuels.

Now, about hydrogen prices. Wolfensland is a relatively small country with little to no oil reserves. It's natural that sooner or later, my government would start searching for alternative forms of fuel, and hydrogen is one of the best alternatives. We, unlike many RL countries do not want to be dependant of such high oil prices, that go up and down every day. My scientists have been working around Hydrogen propulsion for a while with lots of government funding. All Wolfenslandic cars are Hydrogen powered, as oil based fuels are banned for automobile use.

Hydrogen can be generated in specialized plants, unlike oil that must be extracted using some rather expensive equipment. Don't misunderstand me I'm not saying that hydrogen is super-cheap. I'm just saying that Hydrogen generation is a reality.

By the way, i'm no chemistry PhD, so if i'm wrong feel free to correct me. =]

OOC: Problem is, while hydrogen does indeed have higher energy density gravimetricly than gasoline, volumetricly, liquid hydrogen has about a quarter of the energy of gas, and must be stored at extremely low temperatures at high pressures (13 atmospheres, -400 degrees farenheit). This means that storage of the stuff actually takes energy, must use heavy (and expensive) containers, and is extremely dangerous, as it tends to explode.

Not only that, harvesting hydrogen is extremely inefficient (assuming you're using electrolysis), meaning you'll be spending far more energy to get the stuff than you put into it.

Wolf, what most of us are getting at is that at this point, you spend more energy making hydrogen then you get out of it. Compare that to Gasoline that has a ratio of 1:15-30, which means that one packet of energy used to create it in-turn receives 15-30 times more energy out of it.

I have been thinking about using Gasification of Biomass, or Reforming of Renewable Liquid Fuels, and in the longer-term, High-Temperature Water Splitting (Details here (http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/production/current_technology.html)) for producing Hydrogen, i believe it would be more efficient than using Electrolysis.

About the hydrogen storage, Khurgan, the tanks do not store pure hydrogen. I intend to use a fuel system much like United Nuclear's system, that store the hydrogen bonded to another chemical.

Oh, and BTW, i've released the stats on the NS Draftroom, Here's the link. (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=1730)

OOC: Well, i've designed a new system to use the hydrogen on my aircraft. If it works it will resolve most of the issues we have been discussing here, since i wouldn't need to store hydrogen itself. I might make a thread describing the first flight and all that, because i believe it will work this time. Will keep you informed.

OOC:

I have one for my Nation, but I onluy use it for FT or PMT. So..you know.

Still same problem. Your going to use more energy extracting it and unbonding it then you will get from using it. It is what you call a negative net energy (loss). You could use it, but don't expect performance or range close to regular jet fueled aircraft.

Still same problem. Your going to use more energy extracting it and unbonding it then you will get from using it. It is what you call a negative net energy (loss). You could use it, but don't expect performance or range close to regular jet fueled aircraft.

In FT, its combustable. So, yea...

[OOC: Hydrogen is a better fuel than aviation spirit per unit mass. However, hydrogen is also much less dense. Whilst this doesn't matter so much for a huge, heavy vehicle like the space shuttle which can be pain-stakingly and expensively refueled before each launch, it is not good for a plane, which would have neither the space or weight for a fuel tank capable of compressing the hydrogen to a useful pressure, nor would your nation reasonably be wanting to spend the extra money creating hydrogen (which is harder to obtain and more expensive to obtain than aviation spirit), nor the extra time to refuel your planes. The fuel tank would also form a giant bomb, and the smallest compromise to the tank's integrity would precipitate an explosion, firstly caused by the sudden release of pressure and secondly caused by the newly heated hydrogen combusting violently with the oxygen in the air. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it would be inferior to a normal plane, and I really don't see the advantage.]

OOC: this is an interesting idea, but I'm doubtful, I don't think it will work

OOC: One question. Why would the ferkin Lufwaffe use a damn Hydrogen Powered plane. An elite flying force such as the Luftwaffe would use the most manuverable, powerful, fastest, and technologically advanced fighter with the longest range. Not a plane that flies for five minutes and has to get refuled. Don't get me wrong; it's a novel idea. But for the moment; just use jet fuel... Don't use it until you get positive net energy from Hydrogen, that or use Ethanol. It's environmentally neutral Doesn't cause or reduce pollution even though you only get a ratio in comarison of

Gas 1:15-20
Ethanol 1:13-18

It's totally what your looking for if you want to reduce pollution. Though the figure of power ratios I made above are my rough gesses, not actual fact. I think the energy ratio is a bit less. Though I'm not sure.

OOC: If anything I can sell you the plans and production rights for a Thermal Deploymerization plant that will essetnially make oil out of any material. It'll free up the market so other sources of fuel can be reserved for jet fuel. Or perhaps it is time to 'discover' a massive tar sands field.

OOC: One question. Why would the ferkin Lufwaffe use a damn Hydrogen Powered plane. An elite flying force such as the Luftwaffe would use the most manuverable, powerful, fastest, and technologically advanced fighter with the longest range. Not a plane that flies for five minutes and has to get refuled. Don't get me wrong; it's a novel idea. But for the moment; just use jet fuel... Don't use it until you get positive net energy from Hydrogen, that or use Ethanol. It's environmentally neutral Doesn't cause or reduce pollution even though you only get a ratio in comarison of

Gas 1:15-20
Ethanol 1:13-18

It's totally what your looking for if you want to reduce pollution. Though the figure of power ratios I made above are my rough gesses, not actual fact. I think the energy ratio is a bit less. Though I'm not sure.

Actually Ethanol has a ratio of 1:2 or somewhere around there at the moment.

Spiritu Sante, the Luftwaffe is not an elite organization, it's just Air Force in German...=]

Praetonia, i wouldn't store pure hydrogen in the aircraft, but actually a hydride. I've been thinking about Hydrazine. Yeah, i know it's volatile and dangerous but hey, this is an experimental fighter anyway...And the Me 163 used it, however it used it directly, as rocket fuel, i want to use it as a mean to transport the hydrogen only. Plus, Hydrazine is cheaper and easier to obtain than "raw" hydrogen, i think.

About the energy thing you guys 'been talkin' about. I don't get it. I remember reading somewhere that the decomposition of hydrazine generates about 1700°F of heat. That's why i would need to cool the reaction chamber. I would be able to use this heat to maintain the reaction. I don't think i made myself clear on this one, but i'll try to explain to you how it would work.
This is basically the start-up sequence.
1.After the tanks have been filled with hydrazine (density is actually bigger than that of JP-7 fuel) the pilot gets on the plane and straps in.
2. After the checklist, the pilot starts the APU (might use hydrazine itself, i believe, let's pretend it does)
3. Using power from the APU, the pilot starts the electric heaters on the chamber, these heaters heat the catalyst to a temperature of aprox. 700K
4. The pilot starts the pumps, pumping hydrazine onto the reaction chamber.
5. The hydrazine decomposes itself into one molecule of nitrogen and two molecules of hydrogen. This decomposition generates heat (1700°F =~ 1199K)
6. The hydrogen is pumped into the engine, which needs only minor modification over the current engines. The nitrogen goes to a "cooler" where its cooled down to 90K, changing into the liquid phase. (not sure about using the nitrogen generated on the reaction here)
7. The pilot waits until there's enough nitrogen on the cooling system so that it can keep the chamber's temperature under control (kinda). Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes.
8. Once the chamber temp is on "safe" levels (still above 673K so that the reaction can occur), the hydrazine will keep flowing into the chamber, generating hydrogen and nitrogen. The reaction will continue spontaneously, since the decomposition (the reaction) does generate a lot of heat.

It seems that hydrogen burns colder than other fuels, which would reduce the fighters signature. As a matter of fact, i've been doing some research and found out that a hydrogen leak is less dangerous than a gasoline one. Oh, and as far as i know, H2 can't blow up on its own. But once again, i have no chemistry PhD so, i might be wrong.

I don't want to be a pain in the @$$, you know. It's just that i truly believe that this thing might actually work. =]

OOC: Yeah, but the shuttle don't use turbofans, you know...And i actually MIGHT have found a way to work the storage issues out. Check this link: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
My aircraft is built using the same basic principles.

EADS plans on building a hydrogen powered aircraft soon. One of the advantages of hydrogen over regular gasoline is the weight. At least that's the way i think. It's like 4 times lighter than oil-based fuels.

Now, about hydrogen prices. Wolfensland is a relatively small country with little to no oil reserves. It's natural that sooner or later, my government would start searching for alternative forms of fuel, and hydrogen is one of the best alternatives. We, unlike many RL countries do not want to be dependant of such high oil prices, that go up and down every day. My scientists have been working around Hydrogen propulsion for a while with lots of government funding. All Wolfenslandic cars are Hydrogen powered, as oil based fuels are banned for automobile use.

Hydrogen can be generated in specialized plants, unlike oil that must be extracted using some rather expensive equipment. Don't misunderstand me I'm not saying that hydrogen is super-cheap. I'm just saying that Hydrogen generation is a reality.

By the way, i'm no chemistry PhD, so if i'm wrong feel free to correct me. =] You know, alcohol can be used as fuel too.

OOC: Jet Fuel > Gas > Ethanol > Alcohol > A box of Matches > Hydrogen

EDIT: I imagine if you kept the image of the Luftwaffe after and during WWII as being an elite flying force as that was what they were portrayed as I don't think you would like to disgrace that. Of course you have the be just a plain-old AF though it lacks luster.

Well, the WWII German military have a fame of being the guys who transformed strange ideas into real projects. Those alleged nazi flying discs are an example of this. Plus, i'm not Germany. Also, hydrogen have a energy density way bigger than that of gas, and bigger than that of JP-7, making it a very good fuel. And also, like i said, it burns colder than hydrocarbons, giving it a lower heat signature and is relatively safer.

OOC: Jet Fuel > Gas > Ethanol > Alcohol > A box of Matches > Hydrogen

EDIT: I imagine if you kept the image of the Luftwaffe after and during WWII as being an elite flying force as that was what they were portrayed as I don't think you would like to disgrace that. Of course you have the be just a plain-old AF though it lacks luster. "Elite flying force"? They didn't seem like much during the battle of Britain. It's just a word, nothing special. Besides, the Luftwaffe made stuff like this too, whether it worked or not. Remember the V-1 flying bomb? It sucked, but they made it.