NationStates Jolt Archive

Earlier today, the Veragonian army announced that it would transfer approximately four hundred main battle tanks to export and an additional 150 to reserve regiments and training facilities as two of Veragon's premier armoured divisions, 2 and 3 Armoured Divisions would be disbanded and their personnel reorganized into eight new rapid-deployment, medium-weight mechanized infantry brigades built around the army's LAV-III.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/lav1-8.jpg

This decision is expected to be the first in a long line of military reforms, as the Veragonian army strives to turn itself into mobile and lethal force with the latest in electronics and digital warfare systems. New strategic and tactical airlifters have also been ordered to carry the new brigades into combat and provide the army with expanded power projection capabilities.

The LAV-III, which has been in service for years, is slated to become the mainstay fighting vehicle of the armed forces with a wide array of variants including mortar carriers, self propelled howitzers, engineering, medical support, command post, mobile guns, ATGMs, air defence, and the standard Infantry Section Carrier. To help cover the expense of this reorganization, four hundred of the tanks being phased out of service will be made available for sale at $2.5 million a piece.

While two armoured divisions are being replaced, and plans are in the works to further convert others, military commanders have stated that they are not fully replacing the main battle tank from service, and there are many roles in which the main battle tank is useful. They have stated however, that possibly even 60% of the army's main battle tanks could be replaced by more mobile and advanced LAVs and infantry forces.

The standard set up for each brigade will be the following:

144x LAV-3 Infantry Section Carriers
36x LAV-3 Mobile Guns
36x LAV-3 Tow Under Armour Systems
8x LAV-3 Command Posts
18x LAV-3 Engineers
24x LAV-3 Multi-Mission Effects Vehicles
30x HLVW (Heavy Logisitics Vehicle Wheeled)
60x MLVW (Medium Logistics Vehicle Wheeled)
60x LSVW (Light Support Vehicle Wheeled)
24x Griffon Utility Helicopters
12x Cobra Attack Helicopters
240x G-Wagons (Mixed Types)
20x Nyala/Mamba Mine Clearance Vehicles
12x Seer Recce UAVs
72x 105mm guns
36x 155 M777 guns
108x 81mm mortars
5364x V7A2 Rifles (plus bayonets, butt mag pouch, cleaning kit, and spare parts kit)
936x A9A2 LMGs
936x M203 40mm Grenade Launcher
624x A6 GPGMs
3000x LAWs
312x 84mm Recoilless Rifles
64x Javelin Missile Systems
312x 60mm mortars
600x MP-7 Personal Defence Weapons
6014x 10mm Glocks

For stats on the LAV-III, or if anyone wishes to purchase it, they can contact the foreign sales division at: store (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10778615&posted=1)

The four hundred main battle tanks available for sale are a Veragonian derivative of the Canadian Forces C2 Leapord Main Battle Tank with only one major change, the replacement of the 105mm gun with a 120mm.

Hmmm, I seem to remember that the israeli operation rainbow showed just why you don't want to over-rely on LAVS and HMMWVs (i.e. not enough armor).

I admittedly don't know much about Operation Rainbow (searching google right now) but so far the LAV, the primary combatant of the new brigade, has proven itself in Iraq and Afghanistan, though I'll reconsider it in light of comments by others.

OOC:
The LAV works well in that enviroment because of the enemy it is fighting, lighter infantry with RPGs and man portable weapons, while on NS we are still in the grip of cold war era tank-on-tank warfare, and im afraid against a normal NS armoured formation, you would simply be ripped to shreds.

Ah, operation rainbow was an israeli operation against the palestenians. Basically it showed that LAVs in general don't deal well with IEDs, landmines, etc. Maybe you should consider a more armored IFV as your tank of choice (i.e. bradley, warrior, etc.)?

OOC: Good point. However, we are still retaining a fair number of tanks, and a tank gun can take out another tank, so mounting a tank gun on a LAV (Mobile Gun System) will allow a more mobile platform to put the same kind of round into an enemy tank at lower cost and with greater mobility. Combined with that are artillery and guided missiles, infantry and LAVs armed with weapons like the javelin and other larger vehicle based missiles can take out tanks outside of their effective engagement range. In more open field engagements, UAVs and other recce forces can simply locate enemy tank formations, feed the information to artillery batteries and 105 and 155 guns can open up with specialized munitions to wipe them out from far outside their gun ranges. Urban warfare will still be difficult, but the army possesses specialized urban warfare tanks for such situations. Of course, once I start RPing with these formations, if the enemy does good and tears them apart, it'll make things more interesting then simply a massive tank force that can annihalate everything.

OOC: Good point. However, we are still retaining a fair number of tanks, and a tank gun can take out another tank, so mounting a tank gun on a LAV (Mobile Gun System) will allow a more mobile platform to put the same kind of round into an enemy tank at lower cost and with greater mobility. Combined with that are artillery and guided missiles, infantry and LAVs armed with weapons like the javelin and other larger vehicle based missiles can take out tanks outside of their effective engagement range. In more open field engagements, UAVs and other recce forces can simply locate enemy tank formations, feed the information to artillery batteries and 105 and 155 guns can open up with specialized munitions to wipe them out from far outside their gun ranges. Urban warfare will still be difficult, but the army possesses specialized urban warfare tanks for such situations. Of course, once I start RPing with these formations, if the enemy does good and tears them apart, it'll make things more interesting then simply a massive tank force that can annihalate everything.

With the proliferation of anti-artillery measures and heavy tank armour with active/passive countermeasures and powerful new ERA your LAVs will find themselves terribly outgunned. But if you want you can find somebody to do a small scale war with you involving just one division and see what happens.

I don't think there is anything that can activley take down an artillery round once it is in the air, and i also doubt that massive amounts of MLRS and HIMARS fire would be able to be stopped, regardless of countermeasures once coordinates are locked in.

OOC: Problem is the fact that when a gun fires it gives away its location.
Maybe we should have a small scale war using our different doctrines, we could have a certain budget and raise a formation with it and then pit them against each other

I don't think there is anything that can activley take down an artillery round once it is in the air, and i also doubt that massive amounts of MLRS and HIMARS fire would be able to be stopped, regardless of countermeasures once coordinates are locked in.

There are ground based CIWS systems and other anti-missile-missile systems in use with NS armies along with a ground based MTHEL system and various copycats. My army uses a Gatling Gun tank along with a mobile MASER system to destroy saturation missiles and artillery strikes.

Still, with the speed that an artillery round/cluster munitions are dropping, how much time will your CIWS have? 1, 2 seconds? And even then, there is no guarantee that it will even hit 1 of the munitions in the air. And isn't a MASER that can actually destroy a missile a bit close to FT?

Spizania, I would love that. Let's meet on IRC to start planning.

Still, with the speed that an artillery round/cluster munitions are dropping, how much time will your CIWS have? 1, 2 seconds? And even then, there is no guarantee that it will even hit 1 of the munitions in the air. And isn't a MASER that can actually destroy a missile a bit close to FT?

I'm not actually destroying the missile, I'm destroying the electronics. You see microwaves at certain frequencies induce electrical current in metal, the basis behind Tesla's wireless electricity scheme. The MASER focuses this into a powerful beam that can short circuit missiles, rendering them dead in the air or set them off by giving the warhead hte electrical impulse it needs to detonate.

You are right about the CIWS, after detection there is about a 3 second time span to react. Easy to automated systems to handle but overall it isn't very effective. More often these gatling guns and autocannons are used in the ground attack or anti-aircraft role. However, counter-artillery fire is expected and after a few salvos the doctrine is to return this fire rapidly or use a fast moving airstrike to destroy it.

good idea Veragon. You really need to make your army faster and more mobile considering what happened at Lordis. I was able to bomb you with ease because you didn't have a lot of AA set up quickly enough. Good idea but I wouldn't over use the Striker. Also about the reconstruction of Gizmous what happened to the thread? It just kind of died out of nowhere.

OOC: I'm trying to modify based on Lordis...one thing to remember, air power. A handful of F-18s just doesn't cut it nowadays. The Gizmous reconstruction did sorta die, but I suppose it happens. As for my choice of the stryker, I'm not using the Stryker per se, but rather the original Canadian version with the turret and all. It's a fantastic vehicle after all.

OOC: If anyone wants to have a full discussion on this I'll be happy to on MSN or mIRC. As for now, the four legged creature beside me is desperate for her nightly walk, so I'll be off for a short while so you can TG me if you're interested in a discussion or a small skirmish/training exercise to test out these new brigades.

OOC: If anyone wants to have a full discussion on this I'll be happy to on MSN or mIRC. As for now, the four legged creature beside me is desperate for her nightly walk, so I'll be off for a short while so you can TG me if you're interested in a discussion or a small skirmish/training exercise to test out these new brigades.
I want to test out my new Kronos MBT's
so im up for a skirmish/training excercise

What do you do if someone rolls a superheavy tank at you?

What do you do if someone rolls a superheavy tank at you?
he's got good guns on them, just really bad armour

If someone rolls a superheavy tank then I would pepper it with long range missile fire and fire from the 105mm and 155mm batteries until it was scrap metal.

Id be more afraid of a wing of CAS aircraft swooping down on you, or from high-altitude supersonic bombers utilising self guiding ordanance.
Anyway, what mIRC channel and server are you on?

In 2007 the THEL-- Tactical High Energy Laser will be deployed by the U.S. army to take out mortars, missiles, and some artillery shells. Look it up.

well if you want to replace a tank's job with a LAV, then you're in trouble. since it doen't have as much firepower and armour. infact the normal M1A2 Abrams has a 120 mm smoothbore gun, and the best of the LAV has a 105mm gun, and the abrams has much more thicker armour (DU).
also the tires are much more of a liability than tracks (since we're speaking of replacing a tank). it's more vulnerable to small arms, it can't just climb over obstacles, when tanks can just crush them (cars), and you can't put skids on them since it'll distrupt the turning capability.
in iraq it's very vulnerable to RPGs since the slat armour only has a 50% chance of protection.

well in my opinion this could fill the role of a light tank, but it can't replace a tank that's much more powerfull, imagine you run accross a modern day tank ;) .

well this is just my opinion, you could take it or not

I would just like to point out that this isn't meant to be the perfect fighting force, it has limitations and I want those to happen in RPing as it'll pave the way for further weapon developments and the like.

As to aircraft swooping down on us, wouldn't matter whether we were in tanks or LAVs, an air strike is an air strike. The vulnerability to RPGs isn't as bad as that report makes it out to be, I've read several articles that actually talk to commanders and soldiers in the field and embeds who all swear by the stryker. Also, in Afghanistan, Canadian LAV-IIIs (which don't even have slat armour) have taken multiple RPGs with minimal to no damage to the vehicle besides some armour and paint being scraped away. Just last week one was hit by two RPGs, the vehicle commander was killed but that was because she was up out of a hatch calling in artillery fire and was hit by shrapnel, the vehicle itself was fine.

In regards to THEL, it's range (according to what I read) is effective at just over 200m, considering the fact that forces are often spread out to reduce the effects of enemy fire a large tank formation would require multiple MTHELs and would not be able to withstand sustained fire from multiple guns though it would significantly reduce damage taken from enemy fire.

And those munitions could of been defective, meaning not explode. There are many different types of ammunition for the RPG-7. Some may have an effect of a small hand grenade, some may destroy the LAV into little pieces. Which is probably why it took mulitple hits, then again you never no. MGS (105 variant) also has some serious problems and I'm told they fixed them, but I'm sure there are still many problems. Like flipping over because the chasis isn't big enough to support a 105mm gun. The Canadian LAV-IIIs also have had a few problems like that too, where they may flip over which has cost the lives of some Canadian soldiers. This also happened down near CFB Valcartier (sp?). I shouldn't downplay the LAV so much, but it's great for 'light-infantry' or 'Rapid Deployment Force' something along those lines.

Now I can see that your replacing all tanks, like the Canadian Army. But the Canadian Army doesn't exactly have the best officers in the best places. Not saying all Canadian Officers are bad, but some are in the wrong places. We also have a history of shitty politicans that downplay the military as well. Many things to take into account here. But it's also good to expierment with this new development in modern combat.

Strategic Mobility= Getting to the Battlefield (Basically ability to be transported by long range transports)

Tactical Mobility= Moving around the Battlefield once you get there.

Heavy Forces have Poor Strategic Mobility and Excellent Tactical Mobility

Medium Forces Have Good Strategic Mobility and Good Tactical Mobility

Light Forces have Excellent Strategic Mobility and Poor Tactical Mobility

While I do not reccomend attacking heavy forces, a medium force can defend against a heavy force if properly equipped.

Things I would reccomend for this formation:

More Infantry AT weapons, a mixture of SRAAW, AT4, and additional Predators, as almost anything armored will have to be engaged by the infantry, and I don't think the Gustav teams will be able to deal with alone.

Beefier AT Company: The LAV-AT is good, and I would definately keep, but I would expand capability with EFOG-M, LOSAT, or ADATS beefing up the company to perhaps Battalion Strength.

Add an Air Defense Battalion: Unless you can guarantee total air supremacy a robust AD Battalion is almost essential. A mixture of CLAWS, LAV-AD, Avenger HUMMVs, and Stinger MANPADS.

Upgrade Arty Units: There are a couple of wheeled SP Arty systems out now that I would consider in order to better keep up with the rest of your formations. Most important though, is equipping with counter-battery radars like Firefinder, so that you can overwatch your forces and blast HIS arty should he employ them.

Just some thoughts,

Rowesuela

Id definately get something along the lines of the Warrior or something similar, i could design you one if you like, just tell me your views on ETC and il get to it

I use upgraded LAV IIIs for my army, if you want to conduct a training exercise as I suggested in the Lordis thread, I can set something up.

On the subject of artillery there are already RL prototypes for a LAV III that mounts a 105mm howitzer. I use them in my NS army already. I also use this instead of the Stryker MGS:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/lav-105-pics.htm

bump

Thank you the suggestions. The present organization will remain as is for the time being until I've RPed with it, and once the stated problems become apparent I'll throw up a military development/procurement thread scrambling for new AD and AT systems and reorganizing the whole brigade to maximize effectiveness.

Upper Weston, I'm pretty loaded up with stuff for the next...week and a half, after that, I would love to.

I'm looking into replacing my LAV IIIs in a couple weeks, I need to make a detailed TO&E for my mech regiments first. Plus I gotta field a couple tank/IFV units eventually.