NationStates Jolt Archive

I've had these for a while, but just have been too lazy to write the stats for them until recently. That's why the topic says "Warbook Entry".

Sand Devil Class

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c140/berrik/Lesseps_class_land_battleship_Gunda.jpg

Unit type: land battleship
Length: 250 meters
Height: 59 meters
Weight: 93,427 tons

Powerplant: 3 sonofusion reactors, power output 120 MW
Propulsion: scale system powered by sonofusion system; max speed 40 km/h (sand or soft ground only)

Sensors:

HSCDEADGR with crystal encoding
Close-in weapons driven by active radar with holographic imaging and crystal
encoding
LIDAR
Infrared

Armament: 458mm dual linear cannon turret x 3, 32-tube VLS array x 1 (long-range ATGMs, cruise missiles, tactical ballistic missiles, SAMs), 120mm linear cannon x 8, 20mm linear gatling cannon x 16, Agni FEL x 3, Raptor maser array x 1, 220mm mortar x 4

Armor: Armor composed of depleted uranium reinforcement mesh, titanium, chobham, and ceramics with high-density deflective beads. Layer of aerogel with cold plasma suspended inside provides energy weapon dissipation and anti-spalling capabilities. Thin layers of carbon-nanochainmail prevent spalling. "Electric armor" capacitor system vaporizes armor-piercing metal jets used in RPGs. Next generation reactive armor panels fitted above this disrupt energy weapons as well as kinetic kill devices. Spacing fence detonates RPGs and grenades prematurely and harmlessly. Internal compartments seperated by full scale armor. Lack of an exhaust system gives low IR signature.

Countermeasures:

Chaff
Flares
Smokescreens
IR torches
Laser blinders/laserguided missile redirect system
Anti-laser/maser aerosol system



Onboard complement: 18 x Minuteman, 18 x Hound FMB, 6 x jeep, 12 x CMGV (assorted types), 4 x unmanned scout UAV

The Sand Devil class serves a unique position in the Axis Nova military: it is a large vessel that cruises the endless sands of the Imperial Graveyard outside Axis Nova proper, exploring and cataloging the ruins and suppressing groups of marauders and bandits. It moves via the scale system, which makes use of the vibrations of thousands of tiny scales to move it through the sand.

While the Sand Devil's speed is relatively slow, it has extremely heavy firepower and carries numerous Hound FMBs, Minuteman units, CMGVs, and jeeps inside it's belly.

One curious feature of the Sand Devil is that it is amphibious-- the scale system can also propel it in water, and it is buoyant. This on occasion has come in handy, though Axis Nova has not deployed any on the open sea as such. There is a civilian variant in the works that removes the weapons in favor of expanded cargo space, as a merchant vessel.

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What possible use does thing have that couldn't be fulfilled by more abundant, faster, cheaper, smaller and more concealable vehicles?

The thing is a moving skyscraper, it has a giant bullseye plastered on it.

I will say this though, at least it's not a mech.:p

What possible use does thing have that couldn't be fulfilled by more abundant, faster, cheaper, smaller and more concealable vehicles?

The thing is a moving skyscraper, it has a giant bullseye plastered on it.

I will say this though, at least it's not a mech.:p

Not needing to use fuel and deploying other things that do.

Also, it IS camoflauged. It's not like it'll be easy to see when it's not moving.

Plus, having 18 inch guns you can haul around on land AND water is useful.

Not needing to use fuel and deploying other things that do.

Also, it IS camoflauged. It's not like it'll be easy to see when it's not moving.


I see, though it still makes no sense to me.

I see, though it still makes no sense to me.

Well, what would you do if you had to deal with one of these? The armor's too tough for ordinary MBTs to pierce and it has a lot of firepower, some of which can reach a couple hundred of miles in every direction. You can't exactly ignore it, or hope it runs out of gas. Plus, due to it's own SAMs, the FELs, and the maser, attacking it by air is also a dicey proposition ;p

Imagine one of these raiding behind your lines.

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Well, what would you do if you had to deal with one of these? The armor's too tough for ordinary MBTs to pierce and it has a lot of firepower, some of which can reach a couple hundred of miles in every direction. You can't exactly ignore it, or hope it runs out of gas. Plus, due to it's own SAMs, the FELs, and the maser, attacking it by air is also a dicey proposition ;p

Imagine one of these raiding behind your lines.

I'd nuke it.

Well, what would you do if you had to deal with one of these? The armor's too tough for ordinary MBTs to pierce and it has a lot of firepower, some of which can reach a couple hundred of miles in every direction. You can't exactly ignore it, or hope it runs out of gas. Plus, due to it's own SAMs, the FELs, and the maser, attacking it by air is also a dicey proposition ;p

Imagine one of these raiding behind your lines.

High altitude bombing?

Missile attack?

High altitude bombing?

Missile attack?

Long range artillery. Get about 20 155mm artillery and fire off two nuclear shells with the rest.

I'd nuke it.

That would be foolish, as it would mean my forces would be justified in using their own tactical nuclear weapons back.

Also, DMG, naturally I utilize combined arms ;p I do have SAMs on these things, and Agni FELs have a range of around 20 km; the maser array has a range of line of sight and moreover, can hit things in an area.

That would be foolish, as it would mean my forces would be justified in using their own tactical nuclear weapons back.

Meh, I'm FT my tanks have shields.

Anyway, for PMT if I had to use convensional arms I'd just missile spam it with anti-ship missiles, start lobbing hundreds of high caliber AP artillery shells at it and bomb the hell out of it with high-altitude supersonic planes. Maybe throw in a few a de-orbited KE impactors for good measure.

I'd take losses but they'd be minimal compared to the cost of your giant tank.

Also I did some figuring and each track pod as a surface area of about 1898.34 m^2, for a total supported surface area of 7593.36 m^2. With a weight of 916,518,870 Newtons you get a ground pressure of 120.7 kilo-Pascals, compared to an M1A2 Abrams 69.4 kilo-Pascal ground pressure. Which limits this thing to hard ground like salt flats, no sandy desserts for it unless you want it to sink into the ground.

Meh, I'm FT my tanks have shields.

Anyway, for PMT if I had to use convensional arms I'd just missile spam it with anti-ship missiles, start lobbing hundreds of high caliber AP artillery shells at it and bomb the hell out of it with high-altitude supersonic planes. Maybe throw in a few a de-orbited KE impactors for good measure.

I'd take losses but they'd be minimal compared to the cost of your giant tank.

Also I did some figuring and each track pod as a surface area of about 1898.34 m^2, for a total supported surface area of 7593.36 m^2. With a weight of 916,518,870 Newtons you get a ground pressure of 120.7 kilo-Pascals, compared to an M1A2 Abrams 69.4 kilo-Pascal ground pressure. Which limits this thing to hard ground like salt flats, no sandy desserts for it unless you want it to sink into the ground.

...this thing doesn't use tracks. Read again. The entire bottom rests on the ground, which spreads out the weight quite nicely. Also, I consider your math rather flawed when things like this regularly work in soft ground: http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7385/excavatorowned8su.jpg

Also, I don't use this in FT. If I did, I would just make it fly and save myself a lot of trouble.

Finally, in reference to your countermeasures, like I said, I utilize combined arms.

Antiship missiles would only be a factor if it was at sea (which it wouldn't be most of the time, it's a land battleship, after all-- the sea capability is for the moment just a gimmick and a way to move it to places other than it's construction facility), and even then, between the CIWS guns, the FELs, and the maser, it has excellent point defenses.

Artillery would suffer from the same problems; the shells can be engaged by both the FELs and the masers, and in any case, it's main guns would outrange your artillery rather handily. 18 inch cannons tend to do that rather well.

Not to mention that in a major battle, it would have air support in any case, and again, as stated, it's air defenses are also quite nice. Supersonic planes can't outrun a laser beam.

The KE sats I suppose would be a problem, if I didn't tend to pop the things on sight if any go anywhere near my territory, where Sand Devils are most likely to be encountered anyways.

I suggest you talk to GMC and Zepplin Manufacturers; I consulted them whilst making this thing.

edit: speaking of ZMI, he has something even bigger and heavier than this that spreads it's weight out not nearly as well... so, :p

edit again: Finally, re the cost issue, I'm big, rich, and powerful. I can use whatever I bloody well please and to hell with the cost :cool:

compared to an M1A2 Abrams 69.4 kilo-Pascal ground pressure.

Except an M1A2's ground pressure of 15.4 PSI is 106.179 kilopascals, not 69.4. Oops.

If the entire bottom surface is supporting the weight, then the ground pressure problem is indeed allevieated. However that piece of mining machinery you posted masses quite a bit less than your giant tank.

Anti-ship missiles because they have larger warheads and are designed to attack ship sized targets. And I'd use hundreds of them, can't catch them all.

I can get big artillery of my own, and send hundreds of shells along with the hundreds of missiles. Can't catch them all.

I'd use hundreds of bombers dropping thousands of bombs. Can't catch them all.

The KE impactors aren't really that much of a factor.

But really, I'd just nuke it and get it over with. Sure you nuke back, but my dispersed tanks won't be destroyed in enough numbers to offset the massive damage done to your mega-tank.

Except an M1A2's ground pressure of 15.4 PSI is 106.179 kilopascals, not 69.4. Oops.


Meh, doesn't really matter now since I conceded the point.

Edit: As in yes I made a mistake and concede the ground pressure point.

I'd still nuke it.

Yes, given enough firepower and planes and what not you could take one out. How is this different from anything? :rolleyes:

Also, what if I send ten instead of one? Then you're boned :p

But really, I'd just nuke it and get it over with. Sure you nuke back, but my dispersed tanks won't be destroyed in enough numbers to offset the massive damage done to your mega-tank.

By this logic we should also replace the Abrams with technicals, you realise?

Yes, given enough firepower and planes and what not you could take one out. How is this different from anything? :rolleyes:

For less cost than the giant tank. Which is the point.

Also, what if I send ten instead of one? Then you're boned :p

I use ten nukes.:p

By this logic we should also replace the Abrams with technicals, you realise?

I don't know what a technical is, but if they could fill the role of an Abrams just as well for less cost then yeah, replace the tanks.

I don't see how a giant tank would fill any role more numerous cheaper vehicles could fill just as well.

I don't know what a technical is, but if they could fill the role of an Abrams just as well for less cost then yeah, replace the tanks.

I don't see how a giant tank would fill any role more numerous cheaper vehicles could fill just as well.

So does your FT navy consist entirely of fighters?

I don't know what a technical is, but if they could fill the role of an Abrams just as well for less cost then yeah, replace the tanks.

A technical is a pick-up truck with a recoiless rifle, heavy machine gun or missile launcher bolted to it. They are fast and more agile than tanks, and if they use cover effectively and have up-to-date missiles, they can strike at the sides or rear of a tank and damage it successfully for a fraction of the cost. By your thinking, rather than effectively coordinating other units to protect that tank from this threat, you should just build technicals yourself and scrap the tanks.

The fact that something is not invincible is not the same as being useless; you can concoct hundreds of scenarios where, say, a squadron of hydrofoil missile boats could defeat a cruiser, a squardon of cruisers defeat a battleship, a squadron of tiny X-Wings destroy the Death Star...Never mind that in each case the larger vehicle has masively increased capabilities, it was defeated by a small thing and being defeated by a smaller thing makes it useless.

So yes, by your logic a modern army should constist of infantry and technicals, a navy of torpedo boats and nothing else, and the airforce of MiG 15s.

So does your FT navy consist entirely of fighters?

It would if they could do the job as well as massive ships. But they can't so I have massive ships.

I get it's supposed to be a battleship on land thing. However all it's roles could be filled with a convoy of tanker trucks, self-propelled artillery, MBTs, IFVs, mobile SAM batteries. You know a fairly basic armoured regiment with logistics support that you could achieve with PMT.

Why put all that into one giant tank, which costs more, and greatly increases the risk of it being blown to hell with one swift stroke?

It would if they could do the job as well as massive ships. But they can't so I have massive ships.

I get it's supposed to be a battleship on land thing. However all it's roles could be filled with a convoy of tanker trucks, self-propelled artillery, MBTs, IFVs, mobile SAM batteries. You know a fairly basic armoured regiment with logistics support that you could achieve with PMT.

Why put all that into one giant tank, which costs more, and greatly increases the risk of it being blown to hell with one swift stroke?

For the same sorts of reasons people in II use SDs.

A technical is a pick-up truck with a recoiless rifle, heavy machine gun or missile launcher bolted to it. They are fast and more agile than tanks, and if they use cover effectively and have up-to-date missiles, they can strike at the sides or rear of a tank and damage it successfully for a fraction of the cost. By your thinking, rather than effectively coordinating other units to protect that tank from this threat, you should just build technicals yourself and scrap the tanks.

They can't do the job of a tank as well as a tank can from your description. So I would keep the tanks with infantry support.

The modern militaty works good. So no I wouldn't change it.

The fact that something is not invincible is not the same as being useless

Indeed. But I don't see any use at all for a giant tank.

So yes, by your logic a modern army should constist of infantry and technicals, a navy of torpedo boats and nothing else, and the airforce of MiG 15s.

My logic is that the best tools for the job should be used. If those were the best tools for the job I would use them, but they're not. They're cheaper but they can't do the job nearly as well. However if you have two things that do the same job equally as well, and one is smaller and cheaper, use the smaller and cheaper one.

For the same sorts of reasons people in II use SDs.

The "oooh shiny" factor then? That's fine, but it makes no sense to use them from a practicality standpoint.

You may wish to note that almost no one follows a strategy of proportional retaliation like I do.

If, say, AMF, or Praetonia, or Zepplin Manufacturers were to field a similar design, and you nuked it... well now. ;p

You may wish to note that almost no one follows a strategy of proportional retaliation like I do.

If, say, AMF, or Praetonia, or Zepplin Manufacturers were to field a similar design, and you nuked it... well now. ;p

Yeah, Assured Destruction I get it.:p

I get it's supposed to be a battleship on land thing. However all it's roles could be filled with a convoy of tanker trucks, self-propelled artillery, MBTs, IFVs, mobile SAM batteries. You know a fairly basic armoured regiment with logistics support that you could achieve with PMT.

And all an Abrams' weapons could be accounded for with a towed AT gun and 3 machine gun crews. Would they have the same capability just because they have the same guns?

Similarly, does your mixed unit have the ability to fire battleship cannon rounds from anything, and can any unit in it match the armour of a single large unit?

My logic is that the best tools for the job should be used. If those were the best tools for the job I would use them, but they're not. They're cheaper but they can't do the job nearly as well. However if you have two things that do the same job equally as well, and one is smaller and cheaper, use the smaller and cheaper one.

Again, just how fast and accurately can your light platforms fire battleship cannon rounds? Can they fire them? If so, with their inferior recoil absorbing systems and weight, can they fire them as accurately? How can a group of tiny vehicles plausibily match the armour and weaponry of the vastly larger vehicle, its sensor density or its degree of crew protection?

There's more to this than 'I have the same number of guns so I can do the same job equally as well.' You can't do some of the jobs this tank could do at all with your smaller unit.

I will say this, That beast will bring a serous amount of pain to the battlefield.
I think it would have a few problems with rough terrain. The mountains would not be this things friend. By the look of the sand devil it seems limited to flat ground, my question is how can this thing go up hill.
Taking it down would be hard but not as hard as you would think. one method is simple. The Sand Devil due to its size is going to be limited to certain types of terrain. Bury a few tons of high explosives and a pressure trigger and wait for the thing to pass. That will at least slow it down if not disable it.

Again, just how fast and accurately can your light platforms fire battleship cannon rounds? Can they fire them? If so, with their inferior recoil absorbing systems and weight, can they fire them as accurately? How can a group of tiny vehicles plausibily match the armour and weaponry of the vastly larger vehicle, its sensor density or its degree of crew protection?

There's more to this than 'I have the same number of guns so I can do the same job equally as well.' You can't do some of the jobs this tank could do at all with your smaller unit.

Why do you need to be able to launch battleship shells? Why not call in an airstrike?

Yes the crew protection, heavy weaponry and sensor density is all great. But why is any of that actually needed?

EDIT: I know why crew protection is needed. The question is reffering to all the other things.

Why do you need to be able to launch battleship shells? Why not call in an airstrike?

Who says you can get one? If they enemy has a lot of SAMs or aircraft are otherwise unavailable, it's a very useful ability to have. More to the point, you've got it backwards; heavy arty is better if you can get it; the shells don't put pilots at risk, they're cheaper, and the vehicle can lay down a longer and heavier bombardment that airstrikes could ever hope to.

Who says you can get one? If they enemy has a lot of SAMs or aircraft are otherwise unavailable, it's a very useful ability to have. More to the point, you've got it backwards; heavy arty is better if you can get it; the shells don't put pilots at risk, they're cheaper, and the vehicle can lay down a longer and heavier bombardment that airstrikes could ever hope to.

Aye. I concede the point.

I will say this, That beast will bring a serous amount of pain to the battlefield.
I think it would have a few problems with rough terrain. The mountains would not be this things friend. By the look of the sand devil it seems limited to flat ground, my question is how can this thing go up hill.
Taking it down would be hard but not as hard as you would think. one method is simple. The Sand Devil due to its size is going to be limited to certain types of terrain. Bury a few tons of high explosives and a pressure trigger and wait for the thing to pass. That will at least slow it down if not disable it.

Yeah, as stated, the scale system only works in soft ground, sand, and water.