NationStates Jolt Archive

Admiral Carl Jenkins, a veteran of the Kraven and Freekish wars, addressed a crowd of Kahanistanian soldiers preparing for wargaming with their ally in Xirnium. This was in preparation for a possible war with AMF, and a chance at developing allied naval strategy.

The admiral did not desire war with the EAEA, but the possibility was very good if Freekish troops fired on their relief convoys aiding civilians.

"We are going to engage Xirnium in war games," said the admiral. "I strongly urge that you take them seriously." He glared at an Imperial Marine officer who was smoking a blunt. "That means not being stoned off your ass when we engage them. This is to develop the skills of the Kahanistanian and Xirniumite navies, and I've always hated the term 'war game' to describe such a vital part of our training. When we get there, I'll discuss the proposed scenarios for an engagement with the Xirniumite commander, and we can decide exactly what the simulation will entail. The fleet is mobilizing as we speak."

The Kahanistanian fleet was in fact heading for Xirnium within the hour. It consisted of the first Kahanistanian deployment to utilize an arsenal ship, although like all ships, it was loaded with dummies so as not to damage allied vessels or civilian infrastructure.

Zumwalt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_class_destroyer)-class destroyer x 40
Ticonderoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga_class_cruiser)-class cruiser x 30
Dolphin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_class_submarine)-class attack submarine x 80
Seawolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawolf_class_submarine)-class attack submarine x 25
Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_class_submarine)-class ballistic missile submarine x 5
Wasp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_class_amphibious_assault_ship)-class amphibious assault ship x 100
Mercy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_class_hospital_ship)-class hospital ship x 5
Firestorm III (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9719161&postcount=434)-class arsenal ship x 1
Union (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7151337&postcount=3)-class trimaran carrier x 1

Carrier layout:
MiG-39 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG-39) x 40,
F-35 JSF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_JSF) x 50,
E-3 Sentry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_Sentry) x 10,
C-130 Hercules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130_Hercules) x 50
Su-47 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47) x 30
F-22 Raptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22) x 40

Total strength: 50,000 Marines, roughly 100,000 troops coming ashore, total of 450,000 personnel, 72 warships, 110 submarines, 105 transports, total 287 vessels.

(OOC: If you feel it needs scaling down, give me an idea of the strength you would find more acceptable. The last thing I want is to scale down my fleet and be told to scale it down again two or three times.)

Order of Battle - Xirniumite Naval Military Units for Xirmium-Kahanistan April Arctic Wargame

Taskforce “Blue”

Commander: Admiral Alexander Thranduil

Battle Squadron “Red”

HMW Kraken (flagship)
HD-45 class Heavy Battleship

HMW Charybdis, HMW Scylla
CVF-82 class Supercarriers

HMW Admete, HMW Clymene, HMW Dione, HMW Eidiya, HMW Eurynome, HMW Merope, HMW Philyra, HMW Tyche
Amphitrite-class Battlecruisers

1-3 Destroyer Flotillas (16 warships each – 48 total)
Type 48(X) Destroyers

6-9 Submarine Flotillas (16 warships each – 64 total)
Type CCXLVIII “Nereid” nuclear-powered attack submarines


Wolfpack Squadron “Grey”

1-5 Submarine Flotillas (16 warships each - 80 total)
Type CCXLVIII “Nereid” nuclear-powered attack submarines


Carrier Group “Black”

1-6 Naval Fighter Squadrons (16 aircraft each - 96 total)
Mikoyan MiG Project 172/X-S2(N) “Valkyrie” air superiority fighter aircraft

1-4 Naval Strike Squadrons (16 aircraft each - 64 total)
Yakolev Yak Project 143/X-S3(N) “Harpy” S/VTOL fighter-bomber aircraft

Assorted AWACS aircraft and anti-submarine helicopters


Total: 59 surface warships, 144 submarines, 160 fighter aircraft

(Do you have stats or at least descriptions of your equipment? I'd like to know what I'm up against.)

Kahanistanian Objective: Neutralize opposing fleet. Land a force of Imperial Marines on the beach and set up a foothold. Hold the beach position for 14 days.

The Tico's held back slightly, allowing the Kahanistanian destroyers to move in, preparing to engage the Xirniumite destroyers and submarines. The Kahanistanian submarines moved forward slowly, so as to minimize their appearance on sonar. Around the carrier and rear lines of the fleet, CAP flights of Sukhoi Su-47's patrolled the fleet, ready to counter any air attack on the carrier, the vulnerable arsenal ship, or the transports which were holding the Marines who were to be unloaded.

Somewhere in the Arctic Circle

S-1211, Xirniumite “Nereid” Type CCXLVIII nuclear-powered attack submarine
Wolfpack Squadron “Grey”

Commodore Jean-Marie Boulanger carefully pondered his next move. The Xirniumite commander's enemy was formidable indeed, an aggressive opponent who had taken the initiative and boldly proceeded to execute his cunning plan. Fortunately, this old sea dog had several more tricks up his sleeve yet…

‘Well, sir? Are you read to move?’ asked a mildly irritated Edwin Fabbri, the Executive Officer of S-1211. Bent over the elaborately crafted and expensive, wooden antique chess set, the XO was studying the layout of the board intently, having barely touched his steaming cup of earl grey tea.

‘It’s certainly a most difficult position, Mr Fabrri. Both my queen and bishop pieces are at risk of being forked by that infernal knight of yours,’ explained the old naval commander. As always, Jean-Marie liked to analyse the tactical situation with his trusted first officer - even at times where the two were supposed to be adversaries.

Before Commodore Boulanger could decide on an appropriate move, however, the naval officers were interrupted by the sudden entry of a young Lieutenant.

‘Sir, we have arrived at XN-grid KL73,’ announced the officer, handing Jean-Marie a sheet of paper indicating the submarine’s current position and depth.

‘Unfortunately, it looks like we’ll have to continue this at a latter day,’ apologised the Commodore, standing to his feet as he donned his officers’ cap. ‘Mr Fabbri? Please accompany me to the control room.’

The submarines control room, as always, bustled with feverish activity. Removing several nautical charts, the boat’s officers studied the situation, talking animatedly about what next to do.

‘At this time of the year, and at our position, the ice is not that much thicker than one metre,’ explained the navigator, pointing to their current location on the map. ‘It should be fine for us.’

‘Excellent. Mr Murdock, surface the boat, if you please,’ commanded the Commodore to his helmsman.

‘Aye sir, surfacing boat,’ he replied.

‘Surface the boat!’

With a lurch and a tremendous release of the boat's compressed air, the submarine’s onboard ballast was blown into the sea and its depth quickly rose from where it had previously been at 330 metres. Its diving planes rotated completely vertical to prevent any damage, the reinforced conning tower effortlessly broke through the surface with the incredible sound of tearing ice.

‘Boat surfaced, sir,’ explained a Lieutenant.

‘Sir, we have received a message from the Xirniumite General Staff!’ announced another officer.

‘Let me see it,’ ordered Commodore Boulanger tersely. Taking the print-out into his hands, the naval commander quickly scanned the message.

___________________________________________________________

Xirniumite General Staff – Encrypted April Arctic Wargames Memorandum

Directed to: Taskforce “Blue”

Objective: Neutralise Kahanistanian invasion fleet.

Intelligence:

Enemy fleet sighted at XN-grid GH23, heading towards northernmost tip of northeast Xirnium at moderate to slow speed. Enemy fleet composition includes one heavy battlecruiser, one supercarrier, sixty plus destroyers, and an unknown number of submarines.

Orders:

Wolfpack Squadron “Grey”, located under Arctic ice, to proceed to XN-grid FE12 undetected, where it will be positioned to simulate attack on main Kahanistanian fleet from starboard, abeam and behind.

Battle Squadron “Red”, currently located off the coast of wargame amphibious landing target location, proceed with all haste to XN-gird FG56. This will place the Battle Squadron at a position ahead and abeam, to port, of Kahanistanian fleet. Assume columnar formation. Change course roughly ninety degrees to port, cross the “T” of the invasion fleet and simulate attack.

Carrier Group “Black”, simulate attack on Kahanistanian fleet as soon as it enters range. Naval Strike Squadrons 1-2 to attack enemy surface assets, Naval Fighter Squadrons 1-4 to escort. Attack flights to travel at minimum possible altitude and deploy torpedo ordnance.

___________________________________________________________

OOC:

I hope those descriptions I sent via TG will prove adequate for now, I’ll post others as they’re needed or as you ask for them.

Since these units will likely be engaged in battle first, here are brief descriptions of the submarines and air-supremacy fighters being used.

Mikoyan Project 172/X-S2 Air Superiority Fighter Aircraft

Specifications (Project 172/X-S2)

General characteristics

Type: Air Superiority Fighter
Crew: 1
Length: 19m
Wingspan: 15m
Height: 4.50m
Powerplant: Two afterburning, thrust vectored, Lorica SgT108-F Turbofans
Thrust: 185kN each
Empty Weight: 14,500kg

Performance

Supercruising speed: Mach 2.9
Maximum speed: Mach 3.7+
Range: 4000km
Maximum Altitude: 20,000m

Armament

Guns: 1× 30 mm ArNT-827 cannon
Missiles/Bombs: Classified

[Image (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/Xirnium/StealthFighter1.jpg)]

Type CCXLVIII “Nereid” nuclear-powered attack submarine

Classification: Nuclear Powered Attack submarine
Displacement: 8,000-9,000 tons submerged
Speed: 68 km/h submerged
Operating Depth: 720 metre test depth
Propulsion: 1 Segmentata "Generation IV" MSR-Nuclear Reactors (thermally insulated to reduce noise and heat signature)
Length: 120 metre
Beam: 15 metre
Armament: Ten 660 millimetre torpedo tubes

[Image (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/Xirnium/Stealthsub.jpg)]

The following is a simple diagram (not drawn to scale) of the Xirniumite General Staff’s plan.

[Image (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/Xirnium/navalplan.gif)]

Admiral Jenkins did not expect the Xirniumites to simply allow his fleet to sail unopposed into Xirniumite waters. He ordered the destroyers leading the fleet to keep their sonars on, watch for submarines, and maintain speed at 23 km/h. The Kahanistanian Navy could convert from knots to kilometers per hour, [1.852 x knots = km/h, km/h x 0.54 = knots] but generally stuck with metric throughout for their own fleets. He also radioed the commander of the sub fleet to move in faster, but stay away from full speed at all costs, they did not want to make their presence known until they had fired upon the defending ships and any submarines they had. The submarines advanced at 27 km/h, knots, 3/4ths of maximum speed.

The arsenal ship and transports remained far to the back, where the arsenal ship would fire off at least one volley of missiles before it was destroyed, as soon as the first shot was fired. The cruisers, between the transports and the destroyers, moved closer to the destroyers at 40 km/h.

The battle was about to begin...

Part 1 – Pre-emptive Aerial Assault

With a scream of protest from their powerful lift engines, the Xirniumite “Harpy” stealth VTOL aircraft of the first and second Naval Strike Squadrons took off and proceeded at maximum speed towards the Kahanistanian invasion fleet. The strike fighter craft flew at almost wave height and carried two mock “Enigma XI” high-speed, solid rocket-propelled torpedoes.

With a much greater speed than any conventional torpedoes in existence, the “Enigma IX” was a supercavitating weapon. As the torpedo travelled, the water around it would vaporise and form many small bubbles of gas around the body of the projectile, vastly reducing drag and allowing for extremely high speeds - the torpedo was designed to actually glide under the surface of the water through a thin envelope of air. The “Enigma XI” was therefore an underwater rocket.

The Xirniumite Naval Strike Squadrons had orders to simulate a torpedo assault on the Kahanistanian fleet at a distance of approximately 35 kilometres, from where “Enigma XI” torpedoes would normally snake forth (to avoid any defences) at well over 480 km/h, locking on to the screw sounds of their primary targets and diving slightly to explode under the keels of their prey, breaking the ship's backs with the tremendous explosive force contained in their 660mm warheads. Primary targets were designated as Kahanistanian capital ships (the supercarrier and arsenal ship) and troop transports – both easily distinguishable due to distinctive screw sounds. Secondary targets were any submarines in the area (also distinguishable by distinctive screw sounds) and anti-submarine escorts.

At far greater altitude, the “Valkyrie” stealth fighters of Naval Fighter Squadrons one to four patrolled warily in flights of four, using the famed “finger four” formation. Their primary mission was to escort the VTOLs, and ensure they achieved their objective. From their lofty vantage point, the “Valkyries” could easily dive on any enemy Kahanistanian warplanes that happened to appear like falcons, locking-on to their quarry to achieve a simulated kill - or, at least, causing the Kahanistanian fleet defence aircraft to abandon their targets in an effort to break lock.

Total torpedoes: 64 (ten for each capital ship)

__________________________________________________________

Yakolev Yak Project 143/X-S3 “Harpy” S/VTOL Stealth Multi-role Strike Fighter Aircraft

Specifications (Project 143/X-S3)

General characteristics

Type: Multi-role Strike Fighter
Crew: 1
Length: 18 metres
Wingspan: 14 metres
Height: 5 metres
Powerplant: Two afterburning, thrust vectored, Lorica VxY7901-H Turbofans
Empty Weight: 11,500kg

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.5
Range: 2000km


Armament

Guns: 1× 30 mm ArNT-827 cannon
Missiles/Bombs: Classified



Enigma XI High-Speed Solid-Rocket Propelled Heavy Torpedo

General Specifications

Length: 8.8 metres
Diameter: 660 millimetres
Weight: Classified
Warhead: 12.5-KT AG-77 Nuclear Device or conventional high explosive

Maximum Speed: Over 480 km/h
Speed when it exits from the tube: 200 km/h
Range: Maximum range of 95,000 m (around 38,000m at maximum speed)
Guidance: Classified homing system; Vectored Thrust

Part 2 - Diversionary Submarine Assualt

Cruising lazily at a depth of approximately 250 metres, submarine flotillas six through eight turn and advance steadily on the Kahanistanian fleet at ahead flank. As they move away from Battle Squadron “Red”, the high-pitch whine of their screws will be distinctively familiar to Kahanistanian SONAR operators as a sound belonging to nuclear attack submarines - and indicate to them that a very large “Nereid” underwater attack is underway.

The aim of this tactic is to draw the Kahanistanian submarines and anti-submarine escorts out from the main fleet, allowing Wolfpack Squadron “Grey” (approaching silently but rapidly from the Arctic) to reek havoc from the armada’s starboard stern flank. After closing to a certain distance where contact with the Kahanistanian submarines becomes increasingly likely (approximately one third of the way to the fleet), the submarines of Submarine Flotilla 6-8 are ordered to reduce speed to 25 km/h, well within the “silent” range, and prepare for simulated combat.

The two most critical warships in the fleet spotted the incoming aircraft. The captain of the arsenal ship knew that he had to use or lose the missile loadout before the aircraft hit. They did not detect the incoming stealth aircraft until they were within ten kilometers of the capital ships, but as soon as the VTOL's were spotted, aircraft began taking off from the carrier to be safe when it was attacked.

While sinking the trimaran carrier would be next to impossible, the Xirniumites only needed to strike the aircraft on the ship, or damage the surface to prevent aircraft from landing on it and refueling. The arsenal ship was not nearly so unsinkable, and it fired off a volley of 512 Tomahawk cruise missiles at the Xirniumite destroyers when its captain saw it was likely the target of the incoming warplanes.

The Su-47's were already in the air, serving as CAP. They were the first aircraft to respond to the approaching aircraft, though they would not learn of the stealth fighter escorts until they were fired upon. The wing commanders knew that the VTOL's were probably not unescorted, but could do nothing until the fighters were close enough to dogfight with the Su-47's.

The stealthy Dolphin-class submarines used quiet diesel-electric engines, so they would be harder to detect than the huge warships on the surface. They were ordered to hunt down hostile submarines, moving ahead of the advancing Kahanistanian destroyers to engage the submarines. This and the destroyer lines would hopefuly clear the way for landing craft to land on the shores.

The Kahanistanian objective was to set up a beach head. When they noticed Xirniumite nuclear submarines approaching on their sonar, the sub commanders sent five of the Dolphins to investigate, but not to stray too far from the fleet. The Nereids were much faster than the Dolphins, in fact, about twice as fast. It would be foolish to pursue them, but some of the Zumwalt-class destroyers fired ASROC's at the Nereids.

[Partial response, submarine movements to come]

Destroyer Flotillas 1-3

The news of the mass missile strike was greeted with typical stoic calmness aboard the HMW Kraken. Alexander Thranduil, who had only recently been promoted to the rank of full Admiral, laboured over the correct course of action. The sheer extent of the attack meant that he risked losing his entire destroyer fleet without ever having fired a shot.

‘Simulate a full scale assault on the Kahanistanian escort warships, and then respond to the battlecruiser guided missile strike with overwhelming force,’ ordered Admiral Thranduil.

Slightly ahead of the main fleet, the Xirniumite destroyers steamed ahead purposefully, prows held high. As soon as they were notified of the missile attack, all escort ships began hard evasive manoeuvres. Each warship had had its VLS tubes armed with 44 anti-shipping cruise missiles, 42 short range anti-air missiles and 42 long range-anti air missiles. A bright flash of light and the eruption of mock missiles from the VLS cells heralded the beginning of the simulated response. Each destroyer of Battlesquadron “Red” fired 27 J288L anti-ship long-range attack cruise missiles at the guided missile cruiser and destroyer warships of the Kahanistanian fleet.

Having released the majority of their cruise missiles, the destroyers now responded to the serious arsenal ship threat. The massive size of the strike meant that each Type 48(X) destroyer would be responsible for destroying up to eleven missiles, though the extreme range of the attack (the fleets were roughly 600 kilometres apart) offered a slight advantage.

Each destroyer devoted two of their advanced Aster 179 long range anti-missile missiles to every cruise missile target given to it. Computers at the Xirniumite General Staff calculated the missile’s effectiveness at seventy percent, and deduced interceptions of 465.

As the surviving Kahanistanian cruise missiles approached the second tier of defence, they were each rapidly met by an additional two advanced and extremely fast Aster 178 short range anti-missile missiles (94 anti-missile missiles in total). Computers at the Xirniumite General Staff calculated the missile’s effectiveness at fifty percent, and deduced interceptions of 34.

The remaining Kahanistanian cruise missile was dealt with by the CIWS of the Xirniumite destroyers, calculated by Xirniumite General Staff computers as being thirty percent effective. Interceptions were deduced at three. The destroyers then began simulating countermeasure techniques. The armour of the “hit” destroyers was assumed ineffective, the accuracy of the Kahanistanian missiles was assume to be perfect, Xirniumite countermeasures were assumed ineffective, and all un-intercepted missiles were declared to have sunk warships.

The Kahanistanians had drawn first blood.

Result:

Total anti-missile missiles expended (for Xirniumite Destroyer Fleet): 1024 Aster 179 long range anti-missile missiles (992 remaining), 94 Atser 178 short range anti-missile missiles (1922 remaining)

Total Kahanistanian missiles intercepted: 465 (at first tier), 34 (at second tier), 3 (at final tier). Countermeasures and evasive manoeuvres assumed ineffective.

Ships sunk: Eight Type 48(X) Destroyers, forty remaining. Each missile assumed to hit a seperate ship, single missile hit assumed to be sufficient to knock out destroyer.

Cruise Missiles Fired: 1296 (18 per each Kahanistanian Ticonderoga or Zumwalt), 816 remaining.


Carrier Group “Black”

Having reached their firing range of 35 kilometres the pilots of the “Harpy” S/VTOL strike fighters were surprised to find no indication that they had been detected. Using their initiative, the Yak Project 143s continued their approach, determined to get as close to their targets as possible. At 25km, they detected warplanes beginning to scramble, and fired their mock torpedo weapons. At this range, the 480 km/h “Enigma XI” rocket torpedoes would have (if this attack had been real) taken exactly three minutes, 8 seconds before exploding under the keels of their prey.

Their mission complete, the VTOLs quickly peeled off, and screamed back towards the safety of the fleet at maximum speed.

Above, the stealth MiGs waited patiently. They would hold off until the Kahanistanian warplanes committed themselves prematurely to the VTOLs before swooping from a high onto their unsuspecting quarry and simulating aerial kills.

Summary:

Total torpedoes fired: 64

Targets: arsenal ship (10 torpedoes), supercarrier (10 torpedoes, at least three for each hull, four for starboard hull), 10 Ticonderoga cruisers (2 torpedoes each – deemed overly conservative given massive yield of torpedoes), 24 troop transports (one torpedo each - deemed entirely suficient)

___________________________________________________

Type 48(X) Guided Missile Destroyer

Displacement: 10,000 metric tons
Length: 174.5 metres

Main Gun Armament: 2 x 279.4 millimetre guns (in forward twin turret)
Light AA Gun Armament: 40 millimetre and 20 millimetre “Angel” CIWS
Missile Armament: 8 x 16 VLS (J288L long range attack cruise missiles, J13 intermediate range fast anti-ship missile, Aster 178 short/medium range surface-air anti-aircraft / anti-missile missile, and Aster 179 long range anti-aircraft / anti-missile missile).
Submerged Torpedo Tubes: 4 x 660mm

Electronics: Classified
Countermeasures: Flares, Chaff, Electronic Jamming Systems and LDS

Drive: Segmentata "Generation IV" MSR-Nuclear Reactors (thermally insulated to reduce noise and heat signature) with 2 screws
Speed: 62.2 km/h

Cost: Classified

Submarine Flotillas 1-9

The excellent hunter-killer submarines of Flotillas 6 though 8 (from Battle Squadron "Red") began to hunt the diesel-electric Kahanistanian Dolphin-class vessels, carefully monitoring their passive sensor arrays as they cruised forward at stealth speed, quiet as a ghost. The attack submarines also began to approach the Kahanistanian destroyer fleet that was creeping forward from the main invasion armada, preparing to launch a full torpedo assault on it as soon as they had closed to within 30 km.

The mock ASROC weapons which were fired towards the Xirniumite submarines while they had been travelling at noisy speed were done so at the very limit of the weapon's effective range, and elicited immediate hard turning and crash diving from the submarines which were targeted. Nonetheless, several “Nereids” were declared sunk, and the "neutralised" vessels surfaced and cut engines.

To the rear starboard flank of the Kahanistanian taskforce, Wolfpack Squadron “Grey” had finally arrived from the Arctic and was within striking distance. The flotillas stalked their prey unseen, unheard and unexpected. For the moment they merely shadowed the fleet from a safe distance, awaiting the order to deliver the crippling blow.

Slowly, yet inevitably, a ring of steel tightened around the Kahanistanian armada.

The Ticos' anti-missile missiles fired as soon as they detected the Xirniumite missile counterattack. Admiral Jenkins wasn't expecting the Xirniumites to use superior military equipment, and after discovering they were, estimated that the first line of defense might have a 30% success rate, and the CIWS about 10%.

The arsenal ship took six hits and cut engines, simulating a mission-kill. The carrier's crew placed orange cones on "damaged" areas of the deck to signal aircraft not to land there. The Admiral himself was aboard the carrier, the largest ship in the fleet. Kahanistanian commanders usually used the largest vessel in a fleet as their command ship. The more maneuverable destroyers and cruisers were capable of more agile evasive maneuvers, but six cruisers and eight destroyers were deemed "mission killed," or combat incapable.

The VTOL's could easily outrun the Kahanistanian warplanes, but it remained to be seen if they could outrun the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESSM) carried by the cruisers and destroyers. A volley of four fired from each cruiser and destroyer.

The hostiles had faster submarines and faster aircraft. Admiral Jenkins decided to only engage those forces which were a direct threat to the fleet. This meant only engaging approaching forces and not those in retreat.

Losses:

Arsenal ship mission killed
Carrier damaged, reduced to 73% aircraft capacity
Six cruisers lost
Eight destroyers lost
9 Su-47's, 17 C-130's, 2 F-22's, 2 JSF's, 3 MiG-39's shot down

(How close would the battle be to the shore? IOW, I'm trying to determine when / if to RP a landing.)