NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread is for discussions between China and Australia in the E20 RP in response to an increase in the Chinese Airforce scheduled for 1956. The location is Darwin, Australia.

January 20th, 1956:

Andrew Parsons, the Prime Minister of Australia entered the conference room at the Legislative Assembly for Northern Australia and looked around. He had seen more impressive rooms in his two years as PM, but this was no place to be ashamed of. He hoped the Chinese delegate, Song Jiaoren approved--Darwin was rapidly developing as the center of Australia's multi-cultural connection with Asia, and if nothing else, the city was nearly closer to Singapore than Sydney.

But there would be more time to worry about that later. For now he needed to commit to aleviating his citizen's fears about the buildup of the Chinese Airforce. It would not be an easy task--Australia had a history of waryness toward its Asian neighbors. Hell, Parsons' own father had been a brief member of the equally brief ASP movement that developed after the 2nd World War.

But now was the time for civilized discussion. Parsons turned to welcome the Chinese delegation to the room...

ooc: note though that I will be quite busy until a little before 1 CDT today

The Chinese diplomat, the former Prime Minister, Song Jiaoren, arrived in the conference room and greeted the Australian Prime Minister, Andrew Parsons.

"I am honored that we are able to hold dialogue here today, and I thank you for your welcome. I look forward to this meeting with you and hopefully resolve any issues between our two nations. After all, fear and misunderstandings can only lead to ruin and terrible mistakes."

After exchanging pleasant greetings with his counterpart and refreshments were served, Parsons turned quickly to business. The PM had a history of abruptness from his years in Parliament, and it began to show now. He was not angry, and few received that impression from dealing with him. He was only direct.

Our nations have a mixed history together sir. There were none happier than I when Australia and China found themselves on the same side in the Third Great War after exchanging such terrible blows in the previous one. It would of course be in the best interests of all our peoples for our friendship to remain strong.

So I find myself asking you sir, on behalf of my citizens. China has scheduled the construction of over 1000 heavy bombers in the coming year, a strange action for a nation with no apparent enemies, no?

Parsons paused to drink from his glass of water.

What need does China have for so many weapons of war? Is there not the danger of setting off a destabilizing arms race on the Pacific rim?

Song Jiaoren nodded at his counterpart.

"A prudent and informed question.

There are several reasons why China is seeking such an expansion of its air force.

First, we need to build a deterrance force. If you may recall, between the 1920's to 1940's, China was extremely weak militarily, and got destroyed first by Japan, then the former USSR. With the growing Chinese military, we will be able to defend ourselves very well aganist any future enemies.

Second, we are aware that China has no real enemies. However, I must point out that the United Kingdom and the United States has an enormous air force and navy. Why do they have all these weapons if they have no real enemies either, considering that the real enemy, the USSR, was defeated and shattered at end of the Third World War. Germany is supposedly a friend of Britain, and doesn't appear to hate or saber-rattle aganist the United States. The only possible enemy I can envision of USA and Britain would be Pakistan with its Anti-Western stances.

China has a far greater industrial, economic, and population potential than the United States and Britain. China supposedly has quadruple the potential of the United States, and nearly ten times as much as Britain. Surely with all that potential, there would be those in the future who may seek to exploit or destroy that if left unprotected.

Basically, China is merely building a defensive-minded military. We are only interested in defense, as we are not in the habit of saber-rattling or warmongering like Germany, Scandic Union, Arabia, or Pakistan. We are adopting a simple philosophy.

'Peace through Strength'.

I hope you'll be able to understand China's position on this. We cannot let ourselves be weak and easily conquered ever again, a lesson painfully learned."

Parsons offered a wry smile.

Of course every nation has the right to defend itself. I would not dare go on the record as a hypocrite, although I promise you, there are those in my constituencies who would have me do so eagerly.

The Prime Minister laughed.

I am a sensible man sir, but I must remind you of the position you put me into. At times it seems to many that Australia is a western outpost in a rising Asian sea. Call it geography, or the will of God, but it is the hand we are dealt. A military build up with the range to punish our cities will need to be answered, regardless of whatever good intentions are behind it. That is the nature of politics.

An arms race will be expensive for all, and surely not in anyone's interest. Is there no defensive alternative to building so many bombers? Flak cannons, fighters wings?

Song Jiaoren chuckled.

"Politics. Wonderful and despicable at the same time."

He shook his head slightly before continuing.

"We do have over two thousand jet fighters, so air coverage is not an issue. The major issue is that flak units and fighter planes cannot do much aganist any enemy navy or masses of ground units that may attempt to attack the Chinese coastline. That is where the bombers come in hand. They can carpet bomb any amphibious landing or destroy high priority naval vessels like carriers and battleships. You may recall that China does not have a Navy as it was all destroyed by the USSR and Japan during the Third World War.

We need weapons that can reach out and sink enemy naval assets before they do damage to China and her coastal cities and assets. Our bombers do not have the range to reach Australia, America, Africa, or Europe so you have nothing to worry about.

Besides, according to Chinese intelligence, America has roughly 800 to 1000 bombers of its own, in addition to a Navy, something which China does not have. Britain has missile silos and a Navy, again two things that China does not have.

China is only attempting to reach an equal military standing with the Americans and the British. If anything, even if China has the exact same amounts of military weapons and personnel as the Americans and British, China will still have a weaker military in proportion to its economy and populace than the Americans and British."

Song Jiaoren took a sip of his tea, awaiting the Australian's response.

Parsons raised an eyebrow wryly.

I remember well the months in the 1920s when Australia was without a navy. It is not a pleasant feeling, especially when ones nation is surrounded by water.

At this, he leaned forward, not quite uncomfortably close, but enough to talk in a lower voice and still be well heard.

China has the right to defend itself as it reaches its full potential and assumes its position in the world. It is Australia's right to do the same. Our job here is to find the happy balance.

Parsons sat back again.

A few days ago, as I am sure it is public knowledge, the United States has signed a treaty with this nation, securing it basing rights for a large number of military forces, including the 5th Fleet. Already the point and counter-point has begun.

Yet mutual security is our aim. I ask the following informally, but would China be interested in some sort of military exercises with Australian forces? We are after all allies, and presenting a unified front to the world would likely alieviate some fears of these weapons being used against us.

Song Jiaoren listened carefully to the Australian and then made his reply once he digested the information.

"China would be more than happy to undertake joint military excerises with Australia. We have no intention of doing anyone harm whatsoever unless we get invaded or attacked, and at that the harm will only come to the invader / attacker.

In addition, China does not plan on expanding its air force any further with the exception of heliocopters and support aircraft at a future date. We have plenty of fighters and bombers to protect ourselves with, so there will be no more need for any more construction of additional combat aircraft.

Again, we would be more than happy to participate in joint military excerises. China cherishes its friendship with Australia, and we hope that we will be able to preserve our friendship. China has learned that friendship is a priceless commodity, worth far more than any material wealth."

ooc: sorry about the delay. I was just raked over the coals by three separate math assignments in quick succession. Anywho...

IC: The Prime Minister offered a smile. He pulled out a small notepad and pen and began to jot notes to himself.

I hope you dont mind he grinned, referring to the notes. The pressures of leadership have wreaked havoc on my already weak memory.

I am happy to hear your response sir. Such exercises will certainly prove most useful for both our nations, and I know they will put the Australian people at ease. It is not often in this day and age that one has the opportunity to compete in such useful scrimages. Does China have any particulars in mind, or may I offer some suggestions?

Song Jiaoren rubbed his chin thoughtfully for several moments before speaking.

"I don't mind you taking notes at all. I've been known to do that on occassion.

As for excerises and scrimmage, I was thinking of two possible ideas. First, we could attempt to hold air excerises between our two airforces. Second, I was thinking of some infantry action between your famed marines that invaded Japan during World War 3 and several Chinese infantry corps. Artillery and armored warfare would be good as well.

Please do share your ideas and suggestions. Maybe you have some ideas that I have not thought of.

Perhaps there's plenty to be learned by our two people. After all, China values her Australian friends and is more than happy to even further solidify our relationship and cooperation.

Why limit ourselves to military? Why not further develop our economic and civilian ties as well?"

Parsons wrote frantically for a few seconds before he spoke again.

Most excellent. Perhaps some games centered around Formosa? For the moment Australia possesses the more mobile military. Our marines and navy could "assault" the island, with air duels to complement the action. In return, Australia would be happy to support urban scirmishes in our territory--perhaps near Darwin where we sit.

Here the Prime Minister slowed, choosing his words carefully.

As you have said before sir, China has one of the greatest economic potentials on the planet, and I might add in confidence that your only serious rival is considerably less stable than you. Australia would do well to maintain close ties with you. There are many miscelaneous restrictions that could be eased between us, perhaps taking in the SCT as a whole. I will leave the specifics to the economists, but before any action is taken I would have to consult with my allies.

Which brings us to civilian ties. Many years ago China proved willing to support immigration to this nation, though that plan was effectively scuttled by the death of the Prime Minister supporting it and a shake up in Parliament. It seems likely that resistance would still be offered by many Australians to such a plan, though your people would be more well received in our northern states like New Guinea and Mollucas. I offer my apologies for the backward looking tendencies of some of us.

Here Parsons snapped his fingers.

Perhaps we could start with the encouragement of tourism. There is much that Australia and China have to offer. He smiled wryly. It is a lot to take in. My apologies. What does China think of all this?

Song Jiaoren nodded.

"The military excerises plan should work pretty well.

China will be willing to help out Australia with immigration, tourism, and other civilian and economic based issues. We can hammer out the specifics as we go along.

Essentially, China is more than happy to help Australia in any way it can."

Andrew Parsons leaned back in his chair, fingers steepled in front of his face.

I am happy to hear it. It is good that these talks have gone so well, and I look forward to many years of friendship with China.

There are one or two more items of foriegn policy I wish to discuss with you sir, if you have the time. Our nations are neighbors in this area of the world and as such, we are often faced with the same dangers. A common front toward our common issues would do much to bring us together.

First, what is the Chinese stance toward Pakistan? A flash of concealed humor crossed the Prime Minister's expression as he continued. I wonder if it is as complicated as Australia's?

Song Jiaoren chuckled softly.

"I am willing to stay for as long as it takes in this meeting to ensure we have a solid framework to build upon between China and Australia.

As for Pakistan, that is probably the most informal question of this meeting so far.

To answer your question, China is on the fence. On one hand, Pakistan has contributed some economic and resource aid towards the Asian Space Program. On the other hand, it is unstable and China is quite apprehensive about Pakistan.

To elaborate, Pakistan has shown a willingness to use weapons of mass destruction aganist its own people. Doing it to one's enemies is one thing, but aganist its own people is a completely different story altogether. Not only that, but it has been figuratively screaming in diplomatic circles and adopting an Anti-Western stance. This troubles China, as we desire to maintain good relations with the West, and we do not want to end up being drawn into whatever conflict Pakistan may find itself in on the path Pakistan is currently taking.

To put it in Western slang, Pakistan could be seen as the 'Bad Boy' or 'Sour Apple' of the SCT, as the other SCT members seem not to mind Pakistan but China certainly does mind Pakistan. It [Pakistan] may draw the SCT into a war that China does not want to be involved in. Even though we've been building our military, it's mainly to act as a deterrant and so that should Pakistan head to war, China will be able to have a strong enough military so to stay independent and 'out' of a Pakistani war that may induce the rest of the SCT to come running to Pakistan's aid.

Thus, the SCT cannot invade or blackmail China into supporting a Pakistani war- you may remember China was blackmailed into invading Burma by the USSR during World War 2, and we had to oblige as we did not have a strong enough military to stand up to the USSR, hence our current military deterrance policy. Be strong enough so your neighbors cannot intimidate or blackmail you into entering their wars or doing what they want when you actually do not want to be involved whatsoever, as China has had its fill of war for perhaps a hundred years, a thousand years, or ever... after the horrors if World War 3."

Parsons nodded.

One would think that this whole world would have seen enough of conflict after the horrors of the Third World War. It seems there are always those who never tire of such evils though.

Pakistan's anti-Western tirades have worried this government for sometime now, even before the recent, disasterous Commonwealth intervention there. In truth, it is that nation that is the root of a great deal of Australia's distrust toward its Asian neighbors. Our status as a Commonwealth Member with Pakistan only complicates matters, but it is good to hear the China does not blindly follow down the easy path of foriegn policy. A report to my people that this is the reason for a military buildup will also be well received. As I recall, the last time our great nations found themselves in opposition was in the jungles of Burma--one more reason to hope these talks succeed.

The Prime Minister put down his notepad and reached for his water again.

Then I think we have only one more important note to discuss. The status of Indonesia and Malyasia in the west Pacific. It would be worthy of note that Australia hopes to maintain its influence over these areas. Not quite the old imperialist "spheres of influence," but that may be the easiest way to describe it.

Song Jiaoren gave his counterpart a geniune smile.

"I would like to let you know that should any kind of issue or hostilities ever break out between Pakistan and your people, or such, you can count on Chinese support.

We can understand the sphere of influence, given that Australia has helped the Indonesian people a great deal while it was under UN Mandate. The only issue I can see is Malaysia and the northern islands of Indonesia.

You see, that may interfere with the USEA's sphere of influence, given that a part of Malaysia is situated on mainland Asia and right next to Thailand which is a part of the USEA. There are several islands in the South China Sea that the USEA apparently seems to claim influence over. One other issue that the USEA might have is the straits between mainland Asia [Thailand] and the island of Sumatra.

What I propose is that Sumatara and Malaysia are decreed Neutral Zones, so that shipping and commerce can travel through the Sumatara straits and the space of sea between the two Malaysias. China does not have a problem with the lands south of that being within Australian sphere of influence- namely the island of Java and everything south and east of it.

Therefore that should eliminate any potential hot-spots between Australia and the USEA when it comes to Malaysia and Sumatara in hopes of reducing any potential tension in the area. I am willing to discuss this issue further."

The Australian nodded in return.

Ah yes, there are a number of islands in the South China Sea that are disputed, as I understand it, even between members of the SCT.

Recall that what now comprises Malyasia includes the islands of Celebes and Borneo, which were part of the Australian mandate over Indonesia. Our interests in the area are of a similar paternal nature.

I would not presume to speak for these nations, who are as independent as China or Australia. Any treaties on waterways they control would have to be taken up with them. I will point out that the Strait of Malacca would be, under the UN precedent toward the Scandic Skagerrak, a waterway nationalized as one nation controls both sides.

I brought this issue up at the bequest of an advisor who showed some paranoia toward the SCT membership invitation to these two nations. There are always situations one does not plan for and Australia would be most unhappy were it put in a future situation where its friends were forced to choose other allies over it. If at all possible we would like to avoid such a situation.

Song Jiaoren blinked in confusion upon one point that the Australian made.

"I'm a little confused regarding the Straits of Malacca. Indonesia controls it on the Sumatara side and Malaysia controls the other side along the mainland of Asia. They are two seperate nations unless I'm mistaken somewhere?

China did not advocate or propose the SCT membership offers to Indonesia and Malaysia. In fact, China abstained in the vote. China is not in the habit of supporting SCT membership proposals left and right. It took several years for China to accept Japan into the SCT, given Japan's actions aganist China.

The SCT can overrule China on this matter of membership, similiar to the US Senate overruling the President. Despite this, China will still recongize Australian interests in the area, regardless of the outcome of the SCT. We, the Chinese, are only interested in peaceful and economic co-existence with Malaysia and Indonesia. We cannot speak for the USEA or other constituent SCT nations, like your nation cannot speak for Indonesia or Malaysia.

The best China can do is guanatree that it will not attempt any kind of enroachment on these nations, or attempt to subvert any Australian influence there. I am willing to hear your ideas on how to resolve this potentially sensitive issue. After all, we are here for open discussion and ensure Sino-Aussie solidarity.

I do have one important question to ask, though."

Parsons flushed briefly before continuing.

You are of course correct sir. My apologies at misspeaking. I am not sure what caused my confusion in the matter.

However, your guarantees warm my heart, for as you said, they are all you are able to offer. The rapid expansion of the SCT is one factor in our unease and Australia appreciates the promise of non-encroachment on China's part. We will perhaps hold talks with other members of the SCT on this matter in the future.

You said though that you had a question?

Song Jiaoren took a long sip of his tea as his mind weighed heavily on the question he was about to ask.

"I was wondering what extent Australia is willing to go with economic, trade, and commerce agreements? China would very much like to try to help open up potential markets for Australian goods, and in exchange, we would be more than happy to supply machinery, automobiles, and other things Australia needs.

Not only that, but I was also wondering if we could enter a similiar pact as we currently have with Colombia. As you may or may not know, China has pledged to support Colombia in her time of need, let it be economic or war. How would you feel about taking our alliance a step further and look at the possibility of a mutual defense pact? We have one with Colombia and it has worked out pretty nicely for both Colombia and China.

Or is this step too drastic for the time being? With our improving relations, as well as possible increased trade, cultural exchanges, immigration, and joint military excerises, it seems like the next logical step in ensuring solidarity and relieving any worried minds within both nations. This could cement Sino-Aussie cooperation and solidarity in times of crisis, and grow to become great friends. Chinese and Australians working together to guanatree peace, stability, and prosperity.

What say you?"

There was a long pause before Parsons cautiously continued, waving a hand.

Any economic and commerce agreements are mutually beneficial. Australia has no issues with any of these measures. My delay comes from your second point.

It would be difficult for me to move a full mutual defense pact through Parliament, though it would be possible to rally support for a more limited measure. Economic aid to each other in times of need, military assistance should we find ourselves under attack. There is one exception that comes to mind. Under NO circumstances will Australia place itself in opposition to the United States. It would of course be reasonable in our eyes should China pick a nation as well that they will not oppose...

The Australian trailed off before continuing.

This would be an impressive commitment on both our parts. I might quote Bogart in Casablanca when I say "I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."

Chinese and Australians working together to achieve peace, stability, and prosperity. I like the sound of it.

Song Jiaoren nodded slowly.

"China has no intention of going to war with the United States. As I've said, China has had its fill of war for multiple lifetimes after the horrors of the last forty years.

Therefore I don't see any major issues in such a step with Australia and China."

It was Parsons' turn to offer a genuine smile now.

Then I do believe we have agreement. I'll get the proper papers together, but China and Australia will sign a mutual defense pact and offer aid to each other in times of crisis.

There will be joint military exercises, immigration encouragement, trade incentives and more markets for us both. And I can of course report back to my people about the kindness and generousity of the Chinese people.

Not bad for a few hours work, no?

Song Jiaoren smiled once again.

"Yes, indeed.

Several hours can make an entire universe of difference. If not for these talks, mistrust might have remained between our peoples, leading to major issues in the future. However, we engaged in this conference, and a potentially messy future has been averted.

If you have time, I was wondering about one more thing, and I would like your opinion on it."

But of course. I have all the time in the world today, offered the Prime Minister, sipping from his water glass.

Song Jiaoren took a sip from his third cup of tea before answering the Australian.

"I wonder if we could also implement cultural exchanges? I recall that several nations have what is called 'Foreign Exchange Programs' in which students from one nation reside and attend school in another nation.

Perhaps this could also help dispel any misconceptions and 'myths'. I believe that this will improve understanding between our two people, while lessening the likelihood of accidents or miscommunication."

Song Jiaoren took a sip from his third cup of tea before answering the Australian.

ooc: nice touch! i dont know why that struck me as so funny...

IC: Andrew Parsons nodded fervently

But of course! Such a program can only bring good will. Might I suggest this very city as a potential location? Darwin is the fastest growing on the continent with Australians, Polynesians, Dutch, Lithuanians, and Portuguese among its many inhabitants. Such multiculturalism would only improve the opportunities of students in this program.

As we move toward the end of our discussions here sir, I cant begin to describe how pleased I am at the progress we have made. Australia will be sure to try these communications with other neighbors in the hope to maintain peace and prosperity for this whole region.

ooc: talking with Ato-Sara. There will likely be a second round of Darwin talks with USEA after these are done, with a possible third for the SCT, Australia, US, and Britain.

OOC:

So these talks should conclude, yes?

ooc: I do believe we have finished here. Thanks a lot both IC and OOC, I enjoyed it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have...

Results of 1st Darwin Talks:
--Mutual Defense Pact between China and Australia
--Chinese Recogniction of Australian "sphere of influence" in most of Indonesia
--Student Foreign Exchange Program btwn China and Australia
--More open markets for each other's goods
--War game exercises at Formosa (we could get a moderator to tell us how we do, as happened between the old FNS and Gran Colombia if you like)
--General happiness all around.

OOC:

A minor correction.

War games at both Formosa and Darwin or somewhere in Australia (so that both Chinese and Australians can observe the war games).

of course. Careless on my part--sorry about that.

Do you want the games RPed out? I think it might be interesting if somebody rolled for them, but not a problem if you would rather just say they happened.

of course. Careless on my part--sorry about that.

Do you want the games RPed out? I think it might be interesting if somebody rolled for them, but not a problem if you would rather just say they happened.

send list of forces to me by TG and I will resolve it if desired

which generates the issue of what kind of war games we are actually doing. To have a decently sized force represented means about a third of the Australian armed forces being present, while China wouldnt even notice the one or two garrisons it would take to outnumber me by 2:1

Australia suggests the following for June of 1957:

Australian Forces in Tainan
1x Mech Infantry Division (average training)
1x Infantry Division (average training)
2x Light Marine Brigades (elite training)
2x F4 Phantom Wing (elite pilots)
Chinese Forces in Taihoku
(similar distribution?)

November 1957--Darwin:
Again something similar, though perhaps doubled in size as more Australians can participate. We could practice amphibioius raids or just open battles on the plains nearby.

which generates the issue of what kind of war games we are actually doing. To have a decently sized force represented means about a third of the Australian armed forces being present, while China wouldnt even notice the one or two garrisons it would take to outnumber me by 2:1

Australia suggests the following for June of 1957:

Australian Forces in Tainan
1x Mech Infantry Division (average training)
1x Infantry Division (average training)
2x Light Marine Brigades (elite training)
2x F4 Phantom Wing (elite pilots)
Chinese Forces in Taihoku
(similar distribution?)

November 1957--Darwin:
Again something similar, though perhaps doubled in size as more Australians can participate. We could practice amphibioius raids or just open battles on the plains nearby.

Hmm...

Here's what I was thinking.

Chinese Formosa Forces:

1 Infantry Corp (should be enough to cover everything "infantry")
1 HQ unit to help coordinate the war games
1 Armored division (as I don't have any Mechanized Infantry)
2 units of Dassault Mirage III's
1 Kirin Strategic bomber (lemme know if you want to include this or not)

Then for the Darwin War Games, probably same amounts of units- but add in one mechanized artillery and one mechanized flak division (in exchange for a few extra Australian divisions or brigades present).

Sound good?

Hmm...

Here's what I was thinking.

Chinese Formosa Forces:

1 Infantry Corp (should be enough to cover everything "infantry")
1 HQ unit to help coordinate the war games
1 Armored division (as I don't have any Mechanized Infantry)
2 units of Dassault Mirage III's
1 Kirin Strategic bomber (lemme know if you want to include this or not)

Then for the Darwin War Games, probably same amounts of units- but add in one mechanized artillery and one mechanized flak division (in exchange for a few extra Australian divisions or brigades present).

Sound good?

ok--i'll tack on my HQ also i suppose. I forgot about observers and coordination.

your total points on the ground are 5+6=11 and mine are 2+5+1+1=9. I'd like to add another infantry division to bring myself to 11 if thats ok.

I have no problem with the Kirin, (since that was the reason for these talks in the first place), but I would like to add another fighter wing (F105) for some parity.

I'll tg Galveston Bay if this is agreeable so we can have some results before the second round at Darwin.

EDIT: Ignore my extra infantry division please. I forgot my marines were more well trained than that.

Sounds good by me. As Captain Picard of Star Trek would say...

"Make it so!"

OOC: is this a secret talk?
IC:
Japan offers military observers to serve as judges for these war games

The Reichswehr petitions the Chinese and Australian governments for them to allow observers to see how modern warfare is conducted.

Sounds good by me. As Captain Picard of Star Trek would say...

"Make it so!"

when are these wargames scheduled?

Far from being private, it is a matter of general knowledge that these talks were happening, as the point of them was to put the public (in Australia at least) at ease. Australia has no issue with foriegn observers as long as China does not protest. The Japanese are thanked for their offer, and the US in particular is invited to send officials if other nations are.

Formosa games should occur in June 1957, with Darwin games in November of the same year.

GB, do we need to send you any sort of tactics or is this on too small a scale to bother?

Japan would be interested in knowing if it could participate when War Games are held again. Observers are being sent to watch the games

Far from being private, it is a matter of general knowledge that these talks were happening, as the point of them was to put the public (in Australia at least) at ease. Australia has no issue with foriegn observers as long as China does not protest. The Japanese are thanked for their offer, and the US in particular is invited to send officials if other nations are.

Formosa games should occur in June 1957, with Darwin games in November of the same year.

GB, do we need to send you any sort of tactics or is this on too small a scale to bother?

general plan of action would be good

Far from being private, it is a matter of general knowledge that these talks were happening, as the point of them was to put the public (in Australia at least) at ease. Australia has no issue with foriegn observers as long as China does not protest. The Japanese are thanked for their offer, and the US in particular is invited to send officials if other nations are.

Formosa games should occur in June 1957, with Darwin games in November of the same year.

GB, do we need to send you any sort of tactics or is this on too small a scale to bother?

China has no objections, as it believes that if foreign observers are present then they will be able to observe peaceful cooperation between China and Australia, and that China has no malicious intent with its bombers as some nations have expressed their fears or suspicions of.

ooc: GB, Australian orders for Formosa have been TGed. It's my first time to actually issue any in E20, so feel free to ignore them if they dont make any sense under the rules--they are just what I thought I learned from listening.

IC: Australian officials tentatively bring up the option in Washington, London, and capitals of SCT members who touch the Pacific Ocean of a second round of Darwin Talks to be held in December of 1957 featuring all major Pacific powers. Goals would be a basic reassurance of stability in the region, organization of multifaceted war games, and perhaps further cooperation in matters of space exploration or commerce.

I'll crosspost on the main thread, but reply here please if anybody is interested so I can set up a new thread for it.

OOC:

I'm not quite sure what to do for the war games- like "Capture the Flag" or "King of the Hill" or mock an attack aganist a fort or what?

I mean, I'd like to "map out" possible scenarios for the Chinese and Aussies to undertake. I can't really issue orders or anything as I don't know what scenarios we're playing out.

Or should we just call it "general stuff" or something?

ooc: i was assuming for the formosa games it was just try to capture the enemy city at the other end of the island. There isnt much room there for anything else, though there could be air duels to compare our aircraft. The commands I issued were designed to capture the northern city (Taihoku) and you should probably design something to capture Tainan. Nothing fancy, as there is little room to manuver, and I dont think either of us really understand combat rules completely.

For the Darwin games we will have more freedom. In general there could be different scenarios; defend the beach against an amphibious assault, urban warfare, or tank duels on open plains. Just see how our weapons do against each other and match tactics.

For example, at Darwin for an open battle, you could out-flank me with an armor movement, so you would learn that sort of thing is effective and I would learn that I need to guard against it.

USEA expresses intrest in going int to talks with Austrailia.

ooc: i was assuming for the formosa games it was just try to capture the enemy city at the other end of the island. There isnt much room there for anything else, though there could be air duels to compare our aircraft. The commands I issued were designed to capture the northern city (Taihoku) and you should probably design something to capture Tainan. Nothing fancy, as there is little room to manuver, and I dont think either of us really understand combat rules completely.

For the Darwin games we will have more freedom. In general there could be different scenarios; defend the beach against an amphibious assault, urban warfare, or tank duels on open plains. Just see how our weapons do against each other and match tactics.

For example, at Darwin for an open battle, you could out-flank me with an armor movement, so you would learn that sort of thing is effective and I would learn that I need to guard against it.

That works for me.

For the Darwin games, I'd like to try to explore all possible scenarios to maximize the benefits of Sino-Aussie war games.

Give me a bit to think up stuff for the Formosa war games, though (tactics and such).

Japan offers Tokyo as a future meeting site, and proposes expanded war games for the next games, to include more nations

That works for me.

For the Darwin games, I'd like to try to explore all possible scenarios to maximize the benefits of Sino-Aussie war games.

Give me a bit to think up stuff for the Formosa war games, though (tactics and such).

Agreed. I hope to get a great deal out of these games.

dont worry about time to think of tactics--it isnt a problem. Like I said, nothing particularly fancy, though GB would be the one to talk to if you have some ideas. I sent him what forces were involved and what i wanted Australia's to do.

Japan offers Tokyo as a future meeting site, and proposes expanded war games for the next games, to include more nations

There is a general agreement to this in Canberra. Perhaps in Darwin a rotating council of some sort could be developed that would move these talks between great cities like Tokyo, or even Seoul or San Fransisco (assuming these nations are interested).

OOC: Assuming that china will come to these talks again, if the US is interested (or isnt) I can get the new thread up. The talks may happen in December, but to save time we can get started in RL now.

Kennedy Administration is still getting up and running, and has the Portugual situation to worry about first.

There is a general agreement to this in Canberra. Perhaps in Darwin a rotating council of some sort could be developed that would move these talks between great cities like Tokyo, or even Seoul or San Fransisco (assuming these nations are interested).


Kim Gu simply replies, "Sure. I'd be willing to host talks."

Britain is interested in talks with the pacific rim nations, though it's sphere of influence in the region is likely to be reduced next year in light of a modernisation of the Royal Navy and the reduced need to patrol the Empire due to decolonisation (With Ceylon soon to be independent the pacific territories now consist of only the central pacific island groups).

News from the US (that will affect the situation)

Statehood bills for Hawaii, Alaska, Polynesia and Puerto Rico (which would give the Democrats 6 Senators and the Republicans 2)

The Marshal, Caroline, and Marianas Islands each get Territorial status.

Kenney then announces plans to visit several cities in the FNS, Australasia, the Philippines, Japan, and Canada in the next year.

Meanwhile, the new Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, goes to Australasia to continue previously secret discussions. The State Department also announces that the US will participate in the Pacific Rim Talks

Plans to visit cities in Korea, the USAE and Philippines are also announced for next year.

News from the US (that will affect the situation)

Statehood bills for Hawaii, Alaska, Polynesia and Puerto Rico (which would give the Democrats 6 Senators and the Republicans 2)

The Marshal, Caroline, and Marianas Islands each get Territorial status.

Kenney then announces plans to visit several cities in the FNS, Australasia, the Philippines, Japan, and Canada in the next year.

Meanwhile, the new Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, goes to Australasia to continue previously secret discussions. The State Department also announces that the US will participate in the Pacific Rim Talks

Plans to visit cities in Korea, the USAE and Philippines are also announced for next year.

ooc: I'll have the second thread up for the Pacific Rim Talks sometime late this evening central time. I have a massive physics test before that, and as such will be out of touch until then.

OOC: For the Darwin games you could do it in three phaes. First simulate a naval battle and then an amphibious assault by Chinese forces. After that part is done you could reset and pretend the Chinese won whether they did or didn't and do some battles in the open field as if the Chinese had secured a beachhead and were moving inland. Then after that you could do an urban battle if you want, this would be for if the Chinese aren't pushed back.

OOC: For the Darwin games you could do it in three phaes. First simulate a naval battle and then an amphibious assault by Chinese forces. After that part is done you could reset and pretend the Chinese won whether they did or didn't and do some battles in the open field as if the Chinese had secured a beachhead and were moving inland. Then after that you could do an urban battle if you want, this would be for if the Chinese aren't pushed back.

I was thinking like something very similar to this with one change. The Chinese have no navy to speak of, while Australia has a marine corps and a heavy carrier group. Basically, I saw the roles reversed, although I suppose it would be possible for China to just borrow some ships to practice with. What do you think Sharina (or anybody else)?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10893069#post10893069

2nd Darwin Talks thread. I'll crosspost on the main and relevant national threads. Invited nations are Britain, Australia, USA, Japan, Korea, China, and USEA. If somebody was forgotten, chime in please. Feel free to get started.

Suggested Deployments for Sino-Australian Wargames in Darwin:

I dont have any real clear idea what i want out of this, though I would hope for a bigger scale battle. If you like, perhaps we could do one round where the Chinese outnumber the Australians to see if numbers will make a difference. That way you can avoid spending money on a detterent that could end up being useless. Quantity isnt everything after all.

In any case, Australia would like to give most of its avaliable military a work out--2 mech infantry divisions, 2 infantry divisions, and perhaps a couple marine and parachute brigades. If you have something else in mind, feel free to let me know.

I was thinking of sending the following for the second round of war games.

4 Infantry Corps (to make up for China not having Mechanized Infantry)
1 Armor Corps (2 armored divisions)
1 Mechanized Flak Corps (2 divisions)
1 Mechanized Artillery Corps (2 divisions)
2 HQ units (one to coordinate war games and one for combat)
4 units of Mirage III's
2 units of Kirin's


Let me know if thats too much (and I'd be more than happy to cut the numbers down).

oh my...

That force is probably bigger in manpower than the Entire Australian Army. However, I actually wouldnt mind going up against it, if only to practice being vastly outnumbered as promised.

Perhaps one round where we are fairly matched in numbers, and then one where you pour in everything to practice swarm tactics? Something like:

Round One:
Australia: 2x Mech Infantry Divisions; 4x Infantry Divisions; 2x Light Marine Brigades; 2x Light Airborne Brigades; 1x HQ Unit; 2x F4 Phantom Wings; 2x F101 Voodoo Wings; 2x F105 Wings (note this is the entire Australian Airforce and Army)
China: 1x Armor Corps; 1x Artillery Corps; 3x Infantry Corps; 1x HQ Unit; 4x Mirage III Wings; 2x Kirin Bomber Wings

Round Two:
Australia: Same Forces
China: Everything you originally listed

Pointswise on the Ground we should be even in the First Round while you have a 33% advantage in the second round. It should be interesting.

Let me know if this is agreeable.

Works for me.

I was thinking of having these numbers myself, as it'll pretty much be this situation in any war that any nation gets into with China (as China can swarm the invaders).

So these two rounds should be interesting- see if artillery and flak units do make a difference or not (I'd like to see if my mechanized Flak does make a difference in both rounds given GB's statement that air superiority and such in the first War Games).

I could give up an infantry division or one fighter wing or something and replace it with the flak stuff for the first round. Is this good?

Works for me.

I was thinking of having these numbers myself, as it'll pretty much be this situation in any war that any nation gets into with China (as China can swarm the invaders).

So these two rounds should be interesting- see if artillery and flak units do make a difference or not (I'd like to see if my mechanized Flak does make a difference in both rounds given GB's statement that air superiority and such in the first War Games).

I could give up an infantry division or one fighter wing or something and replace it with the flak stuff for the first round. Is this good?

So revised Chinese Forces 1st Round are (?):
1x Armor Corps; 1x Artillery Corps; 3x Infantry Corps; 1x HQ Unit; 3x Mirage III Wings; 2x Kirin Bomber Wings; 1x Mech Flak Corps

something like that? This would be agreeable for the 1st round.
Only other question from me then is if we want to re-act an amphibious assault again. I lean toward no, as I think the same thing will happen again and Australia has not had time to build escorts for its carrier. Perhaps a series of land engagements instead.

The military planners on both sides want to wait until next year to do this.. it will take months to plan and months to move all of that from China to Australia and back

The military planners on both sides want to wait until next year to do this.. it will take months to plan and months to move all of that from China to Australia and back

fair enough: Most of the Australian Army units that will be used are reserves anyway, and have already had their time called up for the year to train on Formosa. A delay will not be an issue.

So revised Chinese Forces 1st Round are (?):
1x Armor Corps; 1x Artillery Corps; 3x Infantry Corps; 1x HQ Unit; 3x Mirage III Wings; 2x Kirin Bomber Wings; 1x Mech Flak Corps

something like that? This would be agreeable for the 1st round.
Only other question from me then is if we want to re-act an amphibious assault again. I lean toward no, as I think the same thing will happen again and Australia has not had time to build escorts for its carrier. Perhaps a series of land engagements instead.


Sounds good to me.

GB, a delay isn't a problem for China. It will give Chinese generals time to incorporate what they learned from the 1st War Games.

major development

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10901449#post10901449