NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread will be for out of character discussions of the OOC mechanics, IC factors and any additional miscellanea relating to the future Torontian national and state, Parliamentary and Presidential elections.

At present, the major political parties which will be involved are:

SDLT, Social Democratic League of Torontia (OOC controlled by Xirnium)
TLP, Torontian Liberal Party (OOC controlled by McKagan)
TNCP, Torontian National Congress Party (OOC controlled by Amestria)
TSU, Torontian Socialist Union (OOC controlled by The Lone Alliance/The Black Hand of Nod)

Population of Torontia: 500 million people of voting age

Regions: North BC, South BC, the Olympic Peninsula, Olympia, Seattle, Central-Western Torontia, Vancouver, Southwestern Torontia, Northeastern Torontia, East-Central Torontia, and Southeastern Torontia.

Population per Region:

North BC: 8 million

South BC: 13 million

The Olympic Peninsula: 78 million

Olympia: 48 million

Seattle: 58 million

Central-Western Torontia: 62 million

Vancouver: 54 million

Southwestern Torontia: 51 million

Northeastern Torontia: 49 million

East-Central Torontia: 55 million

Southeastern Torontia: 30 million


Power Centers (where each Party dominates):

SDLT, Social Democratic League of Torontia: Northeastern Torontia

TLP, Torontian Liberal Party: Southwestern Torontia

TNCP, Torontian National Congress Party: the Olympic Peninsula

TSU, Torontian Socialist Union: North/South BC

ADVANTAGES PER PARTY

SDLT, Social Democratic League of Torontia: To be added

TLP, Torontian Liberal Party: To be added

TNCP, Torontian National Congress Party: To be added

TSU, Torontian Socialist Union: To be added

Advantages are points added to the total vote recieved by each party, for example if the TSU had advantages that are plus three, it adds three to its total votes.

Vote modifiers should be based on percentage and not discrete values, in my opinion.

A political map would be nice, too.

You sure we need another one of these? I think the other OOC thread still has enough space.

Vote modifiers should be based on percentage and not discrete values, in my opinion.

It is better to stick to points, easier to keep track of and modify.

Torontian National Congress Party Advantages

Incumbents (of a sort) in Western Torontia

Political Machine/Patronage network

Control of much of West Torontia's Media

Proven Record of State Building (say what you all will they did a lot of things right)

Defeated the TPLA and contained the bio weapon the insurgents released (a military success even if the negative is emphasized)

Ended the TSU insurrection by issuing amnesty (the Party as a peacemaker, a success)

Support of Feminist Groups (its leader, Mitsune Konno, is the only female Party Leader in Torontia and a fervent supporter of womens rights)

Well known leader (Mitsune Konno)

Disadvantages

Secretive

Viewed as dishonest/corrupt by non-supporters

Involved in secret (technically not illegal) killings in BC

Leader of the Torontian National Congress Party Bio

Name: Mitsune Konno
Sex: Female
Age: 38
Hair: Brown
Height: 5.6
Position (besides leader of the TNCP): Vice President of the Provisional Government
Ethnic Group: Torontian of Japanese descent
Region: The Olympic Peninsula
Religion: Shinto
Defining physical feature: A fox like expression

a military success even if the negative is emphasized
How something is emphasised is the entire point of a political campaign. You can’t claim something as an advantage if it is perceived as a negative.

How something is emphasised is the entire point of a political campaign. You can’t claim something as an advantage if it is perceived as a negative.

And you can't claim the TPLA was not totally defeated. That is an advantage.

And only 307 bodies were found, and it cannot be conclusively proven the TPG ordered them killed. As over 40,000 people died from the TPLA's bioweapon attack and millions could have died had it spread outside of BC, I do not think anyone in Torontia would care what happened to those 307 people. You have to be realistic, 307 corpses in a war zone were over 55,000 died would not be damning to most people.

In the meantime there is the clear and undisputed fact that the TPG/Amestria defeated the TPLA and contained the plague.

’And you can't claim the TPLA was not totally defeated. That is an advantage.’
Not inherently, it all depends on how it is portrayed and how it is perceived.

Both in Torontia (especially East Torontia) and, more visibly, throughout the world, the destruction of the TPLA is widely overshadowed by the fact that Amestria and its puppet government murdered individuals summarily and without trial on suspicion of being TPLA members or opponents of the TPG.

That this did actually happen is not disputed by the medias of most foreign nations, indeed the Kahanistanian government itself explicitly admitted to being involved in the extra-judicial killings. This fact received a lot of attention at the time. There was also a wealth of other information made public which supported the claims, from whistleblower testimony to documents.

The total death toll is widely reported to be between five to ten thousand. I think this will matter a great deal in the election.

I'll be raising a new political party (which i'll slowly bring into the RP's over the next few days/weeks) - more info will follow when i create it. It will based around Seattle.

The total death toll is widely reported to be between five to ten thousand. I think this will matter a great deal in the election.

I call godmod on that, no one has any idea how many were killed as there were no records and only 307 bodies were found (the only people the Kahanistanians knew about). Estimates are one thing, however no one knows the full spectrum of the death toll because:

1. It was a war zone.
2. Only 307 of the bodies were found, and those people could have been killed by anyone.
3. The Kahanistanian government COULD have killed them itself or failed to police its military and thus blamed Amestria/TPG to protect itself ("they told us to do it"). Remember Amestria and the TPG deny secret extrojudical killings occured. Also, the Kahanistanian defector killed his fellow soldiers.

What happened remains spectulation.

Also, the number of secretly killed was 5,000 (just stating that for the record) and it should be remembered that they were insurgents. Their fate would have been the same had they been captured alive and given a military trial or killed in battle. 10,000 TPLA insurgents were officially killed in battle or openly executed after a military trial btw (and everyone is glad they are dead).

As the death toll in BC is officially 55,000 and the TPLA waged a genocidal campaign of conquest in an attempt to restore President for Life/Prophet/Colonel Vader Tanakis to power (targeting civilians with a bio-weapon is genocide no matter how you spin it) I FAIL to see how the spector of 307 secret killings will overshadow the fact the TNCP defeated a terrorist group that murdered over 45,000 civilians in a bio-attack and fought to restore a regime 80% to 90% of Torontians utterly despise.

Torontia is not a Liberal society nor is it a society with a recent liberal democratic history, they have endured two Fascist/Theocratic dictatorships, one civil war (where hundreds of thousands died and Kaufman and those opposed to Kaufman used terrorism on a regular basis), one communist regime (which won the elections by fraud and intimidation), and one military coup in addition to the events of last year...(which saw Tanakis fall from power and everything that came after).

I would estimate that perhaps a half million to a million Torontians have died in the last 22 years directly because of the New Order...(at least).

Both in Torontia (especially East Torontia) and, more visibly, throughout the world, the destruction of the TPLA is widely overshadowed by the fact that Amestria and its puppet government murdered individuals summarily and without trial on suspicion of being TPLA members or opponents of the TPG.

I think I have given more then enough evidence to prove that, while the secret killings would not be advantagous/look good for the TNCP, the average Torontian voter would not really care, about a few hundred alleged secret killings, and thus it would not be politically crippling, damning, or erase the advantage the TNCP would get from defeating the Torontian Peoples Liberation Army, a hated terrorist group which killed over 45,000 civilians.

In Torontia (especially West Torontia) the alleged killings would have been overshadowed by the TPLA's complete and total defeat (and with its defeat the symbolic final defeat of the New Order).

And will you stop refering the TPG OOC as a puppet government, that is getting under my skin.

I'll be raising a new political party (which i'll slowly bring into the RP's over the next few days/weeks) - more info will follow when i create it. It will based around Seattle.

Yallak, the Empire has shown no interest in Torontia's internal politics before now...and there has been no meantion of this party until now. (if you create it will be a new party)... TG

And Seattle is an open area...(that needs to be discussed). BTW: Did not Yallak bomb Seattle during the conflict with SF (makes no difference if the party is not connected to Yallak and you are RPing it independent of RPing Yallak, but if Yallak is a sponsor, official or otherwise, Seattle might not be the best place).

Also Yallak, as you are absent from the RP for long stretchs of time and RPing the party will require a daily pressence do you think that is wise? Do you have someone lined up who can RP this party in the event you have to take a leave of absence in a critical period (just thinking ahead).

Just to point out, it's not an out and out FACT that the TPLA used the bio weapon. If you remember, Lou Bryant was opposted to blaming it on the TPLA so quickly. Someone could very easily say that the Amestrians did it to thin out the population so they wouldn't have to support more people. Lou Bryant could make a compelling case out of it.

That's all trivial and doesn't matter, though.

Just to point out, it's not an out and out FACT that the TPLA used the bio weapon. If you remember, Lou Bryant was opposted to blaming it on the TPLA so quickly. Lou Bryant could make a compelling case out of it.

That's all trivial and doesn't matter, though.

The Amestrian/TPG Militaries found plenty of evidence that the TPLA used the bio weapon (traces of the virus in TPLA hideouts, traces of the virus in killed TPLA members, the buses used to disseminate the virus in South BC, the testamony of insurgents captured after the lifting of the lethal quarantines).

As I recall Lou Bryant blamed the deaths on the flu...even though the flu does not make peoples heads explode because of fluid pressure. I am confident that Lou is hated by many in Torontia for his white washing of the TPLA (and I think Amestria bans his show as propoganda).

It is a widely accepted fact among the nations of the world and Torontia that the TPLA released the virus (conspiracy therories I am sure would be very popular with New Order supporters aside).

Someone could very easily say that the Amestrians did it to thin out the population so they wouldn't have to support more people.

There are a few flaws in that little "possibility", BC only has only about 20 million people, BC is the lowest populated area in Torontia. The virus however only appeared in BC. If Amestria had released it to thin out the population why would it not have released it everywhere?

Second, Amestria has signed the UN treaty banning Chemical/biological weapons and submits itself to regular UN inspections.

Amestria does not have a biological weapons program and the UN will verify this (UN membership actually come in handy).

Being part of the U.N. has NO meaning in any RP. NEVER.

That said, I agree with you on the holes and that it doesn't really hold water. I'm just saying - it CAN be argued so you shouldn't base everything off of it.

Being part of the U.N. has NO meaning in any RP. NEVER.

Why?

Well anyway, Amestria does not have a bio-weapons program nor does it have the facilities for the manufactor of bio-weapons, and impartial international inspections would show that (whatever organization conducts them).

B it CAN be argued so you shouldn't base everything off of it.

Anything can be argued or rationalized, if Mckagan’s media or the TLP want to become known for whitewashing terrorist groups and pandering to conspiracy theorists go ahead…

I call godmod on that, no one has any idea how many were killed
The true extent will never be known, but 5,000-10,000 is the most widely reported number by the media and human rights groups.

Also, the Kahanistanian defector killed his fellow soldiers.
Dozens of defectors have reported to the Supreme Soviet about the Amestrian atrocities and these are now a matter of public record.

Also, there is no evidence that the defector illegally killed anyone (the Kahanistanian government has not sought to try him, but instead has promoted him).

it should be remembered that they were insurgents.
It is contended that they were insurgents, not an established fact. With the “Commissar Order” given by the Amestrian authorities, anyone could have been killed, innocent or otherwise.

I FAIL to see how the spectre of 307 secret killings will overshadow the fact the TNCP defeated a terrorist group that murdered over 45,000 civilians in a bio-attack and fought to restore a regime 80% to 90% of Torontians utterly despise.
I seriously dislike the fact that you are seeking to RP the opinions of the Torontian people. I call godmod on that.

And will you stop refering the TPG OOC as a puppet government, that is getting under my skin.
It is my objective opinion that they were a puppet government. We can agree to disagree.

The true extent will never be known, but 5,000-10,000 is the most widely reported number by the media and human rights groups.

How would they know when they were never let into BC in the first place.

Also, there is no evidence that the defector illegally killed anyone (the Kahanistanian government has not sought to try him, but instead has promoted him).

Read the thread, Amestrian soldiers arrived on the scene and found:

1. The shot soldiers
2. The burning Kahanistanian tank

It is contended that they were insurgents, not an established fact. With the “Commissar Order” given by the Amestrian authorities, anyone could have been killed, innocent or otherwise.

Secret killings are officially denied and there is no hard evidence except for the 307 bodies, which could have gotten there anyway.

I seriously dislike the fact that you are seeking to RP the opinions of the Torontian people. I call godmod on that.

So you disagree that the Torontian people despise the former Tanakis regime?

It is my objective opinion that they were a puppet government. We can agree to disagree.

Just stop saying it, it is getting on my nerves.

Well anyway, Amestria does not have a bio-weapons program nor does it have the facilities for the manufactor of bio-weapons, and impartial international inspections would show that (whatever organization conducts them).


An easy media trick would be to just say that they were hidden... As a side note, McKagan doesn't have bioweapon production facilities for a major attack. There's a plant on the outskirts of Triesa that's working on a zombie virus, but everything else is special forces oriented. IE, infecting a national leader and making it look like he died of natural causes. Chemical weapons are another story... but I have only a few frontline forces equipped with Chemical weapons. I have a MASSIVE armory of tactical nuclear weapons though.

Anything can be argued or rationalized, if Mckagan’s media or the TLP want to become known for whitewashing terrorist groups and pandering to conspiracy theorists go ahead…

If Amestria and the TNCP want to become known for declaring everyone they don't like a 'terrorist group' then go ahead.

It works both ways.

I seriously dislike the fact that you are seeking to RP the opinions of the Torontian people. I call godmod on that.

Well I dislike the fact you keep talking about the killings in BC like such things never happened before, will be widely believed, will be damning, are foreign to Torontia, and will overshadow the fact that Amestria/TPG defeated a genocidal terrorist group bent on restoring Tanakis to power and which in its quest used biological weapons to kill over 45,000 civilians?!

You all keep ignoring the death toll caused by the TPLA and the public relations effect that would have (especially after months of non-stop demonization of the TPLA by the West Torontian TNCP controled media).

Throughout history it is very common for insurgencies to be crushed using less then legal tatics and for significant sections of a population to turn a blind eye.

Take Peru and the Shineing Path or Colombia and the FARC.

An easy media trick would be to just say that they were hidden...

And an independent group would say "we were given full access and they have nothing".

Then Amestria would request Hal. and Mckagan be searched for bio weapons/facilities/production centers...

Anyway, I already have admitted that the BC killings would be a disadvantage, but no, you all want to blow it into this unprecedented scandal that would bury the TNCP in the elections.

Well no, that is not realistic.

How do you know that alot of the population in BC wouldn't have supported the TPLA because they see them as fighting the imperialist foreigners?

You're also RP'ing the Torontian people as being gullible enough to accept everything the TPG hears as ultimate truth. That's not fair OR right.

Also, the TSU was involved in what happened in BC, although they were not directly involved in the killings they knew about the policy and supported it. Factor that in as well.

Well I dislike the fact you keep talking about the killings in BC like such things never happened before, will be widely believed, will be damning, are foreign to Torontia, and will overshadow the fact that Amestria/TPG defeated a genocidal terrorist group bent on restoring Tanakis to power and which in its quest used biological weapons to kill over 45,000 civilians?!

Bullshit.

Are you saying that if it turned up in the news tommorow that the U.S. Army killed 10,000 insurgents in Iraq on sight that no one would care?

Again, bullshit.

There's nothing that can be proved NOW or in the immediate future, but once the RP goes back to normal time and the McKagan fact finding team starts looking around it's ONLY a matter of time.

Also, the TSU was involved in what happened in BC, although they were not directly involved in the killings they knew about the policy and supported it. Factor that in as well.

It would be pretty hard to link them to it. Again, it's possible, but would take a long IC time and be hard to do.

How do you know that alot of the population in BC wouldn't have supported the TPLA because they see them as fighting the imperialist foreigners?

They might have had support after the bio attack but afterwards they would have lost ALL popular support (targeting the people you are supposed to be liberating with bio weapons is not a good PR move). Also, you said in the origional thread they were pro New Order (another damning feature).

You're also RP'ing the Torontian people as being gullible enough to accept everything the TPG hears as ultimate truth. That's not fair OR right.

No I am not, you are RPing them as willing to damn the TNCP because of a few alleged killings.

Bullshit.

Are you saying that if it turned up in the news tommorow that the U.S. Army killed 10,000 insurgents in Iraq on sight that no one would care?

Again, bullshit.

What do you mean? They have killed people on sight, in Iraq, in Vietnam... The CIA has secret prisons in Eastern Europe were they engage in torture.

The Iraq Ministry of the Interior opperates death squads that target people along sectarian lines...

Kurds in the North are practicing genocide against the Sunnis by forcing them out of their homes or targeting them with violance...est.

There's nothing that can be proved NOW or in the immediate future, but once the RP goes back to normal time and the McKagan fact finding team starts looking around it's ONLY a matter of time.

I said it would take at least two years to find the bodies.

Torontia is not a democratic country, it is a post Totalitarian Country that has had a very violent history. After Tanakis fall there were many deaths from revenge killings, looting, and the typical things that happens when a dictatorship falls without warning.

5,000 alleged secret killings in a war zone during an insurgency in an isolated part of a country of 500 million is not that big a deal.

5000 people out of 500 million... That is an enourmously small number! Preportion should be taken into account.

They might have had support after the bio attack but afterwards they would have lost ALL popular support (targeting the people you are supposed to be liberating with bio weapons is not a good PR move). Also, you said in the origional thread they were pro New Order (another damning feature).

And who is telling the civilians that it was the TPLA? The TPG? The TPG hasn't allowed a SINGLE outside view into Western Torontia. This would start to work AGAINST them as people start to not trust them anymore. They'd be very, very suspicous at anything the TPG says.

What do you mean? They have killed people on sight, in Iraq, in Vietnam... The CIA has secret prisons in Eastern Europe were they engage in torture.

The Iraq Ministry of the Interior opperates death squads that target people along sectarian lines...

Kurds in the North are practicing genocide against the Sunnis by forcing them out of their homes or targeting them with violance...est.

That's different than if it turned out that American troops simply lined them up and shot them.

Torontia is not a democratic country, it is a post Totalitarian Country that has had a very violent history. After Tanakis fall there were many deaths from revenge killings, looting, and the typical things that happens when a dictatorship falls without warning.

Is it typical for revenge killings, looting, and other random things that go on without order to end up putting bodies in massive concrete incasements and drop them into the deep ocean? Gee, I didn't know Jimbob the Angry Salesman had the ability to do that... There's some things only a government can do.

5,000 alleged secret killings in a war zone during an insurgency in an isolated part of a country of 500 million is not that big a deal.

5000 people out of 500 million... That is an enourmously small number! Preportion should be taken into account.

It's not the fact that they were killed. It's the fact that they were COVERED UP. It would cause even MORE uncertainty within the Torontian people who should at this point be questioning just about everything. How could they be assured that even MORE people aren't being picked up and killed that way?

I'm not saying this is something that should suddenly kill the TNCP overnight. It's not. But as you protect the civilians more and more the unrest is going to become greater and greater.

Look at RL North Korea, and Iran.

And who is telling the civilians that it was the TPLA?

Xirnium, Yallak, Kahanistan, Amestria, all are on the record in agreeing that it was the TPLA that unleashed the bioweapon.

The TPG? The TPG hasn't allowed a SINGLE outside view into Western Torontia. This would start to work AGAINST them as people start to not trust them anymore. They'd be very, very suspicous at anything the TPG says.

You think the TPG is that blatant when it comes to censoring bad news/criticism?

That said, that would promote cynicism I will admit, although many of the people in Torontia, after three dictatorships, most likely already engage in constant cynicism (which does not help any political party).

Is it typical for revenge killings, looting, and other random things that go on without order to end up putting bodies in massive concrete incasements and drop them into the deep ocean? Gee, I didn't know Jimbob the Angry Salesman had the ability to do that... There's some things only a government can do.

Those will not be found for two years at least.

It's not the fact that they were killed. It's the fact that they were COVERED UP. It would cause even MORE uncertainty within the Torontian people who should at this point be questioning just about everything. How could they be assured that even MORE people aren't being picked up and killed that way?

[QUOTE=McKagan]I'm not saying this is something that should suddenly kill the TNCP overnight.

You talk about it as if it will.

It's not. But as you protect the civilians more and more the unrest is going to become greater and greater.

The problem with that line of arguement is that Martial Law throughout most of Western Torontia has been lifted for months and a civil court system is up and publically running (military tribunals no longer employed in most areas). I am not saying there have not been arrests, there have been arrests (criminal or suspected New Order), but the government no longer disapears anyone.

Also, the extrajudicial execution/disappear them policy only was undertaken in BC after the bioweapon attack, it was never practicised outside of BC, that should also be taken into account. For most people the controversy will be very far away/very distant... And it helps that travel to BC was restricted the moment the insurgency began.

BTW: Travel restrictions are nothing new in Torontias history, check some of Torontia's old posts, during the kaufman regime premission was needed to travel between districts in Seattle.

Look at RL North Korea, and Iran.

Which TNCP controlled West Torontia was nothing like.

Also, the TSU was involved in what happened in BC, although they were not directly involved in the killings they knew about the policy and supported it. Factor that in as well.
And if the TSU knew, BH knew, so TLA knew also. In fact when the whole 'confession' of the deaths came out, TLA spun it off as:
Infected Insurgants Killed to Prevent Spread of Killer Virus.

_________
Now for the TSU

Torontian Socialist Union Advantages

Won Near Majority seats in the previous West Torontia Elections

Strong Grass Roots Campagian in the rural areas of Torontia.

Fought for their Independence.
(Lost, but still you have to respect their courage)

Helped to defeat the TPLA.

Strongly codemination against New Order Criminals, large appeal to the ones who want revenge against The New Order.

Strongly Believes in keeping Civil Rights.

Torontian Socialist Union Advantages

Won Near Majority seats in the previous West Torontia Elections

Strong Grass Roots Campagian in the rural areas of Torontia.

Fought for their Independence.
(Lost, but still you have to respect their courage)

Helped to defeat the TPLA.

Strongly codemination against New Order Criminals, large appeal to the ones who want revenge against The New Order.

Strongly Believes in keeping Civil Rights.

Note: Those West Torontian Elections were local, and the number of seats won outside of the O.P. was around 45% (out of eight party's).

Further advantages for the TSU would be:

Possesses legitamacy as a long running resistence organization opposed to the New Order.

A well known leader (Bovern).

How would they know when they were never let into BC in the first place.
It is an estimate made due to various factors including witness testimony, the scale of the operation, the amount of time that the policy was in place for, the number of missing persons unnacounted for, etc.

Amestrian soldiers arrived on the scene and found
None of which proves illegal killing. If there was an allegation of illegal homicide, it would have been brought before a Court.

Secret killings are officially denied and there is no hard evidence except for the 307 bodies, which could have gotten there anyway.
And absolutely no foreign nation believes the denials. Just some of the nations whose governments or medias have represented Amestrian atrocities as a known fact:

Halberdgardia
Xirnium
McKagan
Yallak
Kahanistan
Velkya
The Lone Alliance
Red Tide
Leafanistan
Azimeth

All those "just" 307 bodies found were from mass grave locations given by the whistleblower who exposed the Amestrian warcrimes. They are evidence supporting his assertion (unless you think he put them there on his own).

More evidence will surface in the next few weeks which further conclusively proves Amestrian warcrimes violations. It will also bring the issue back to prominence.

So you disagree that the Torontian people despise the former Tanakis regime?
I disagree that the fact that the Torontians despise the Tanakis will give the TNCP a licence to commit murder in the eyes of Torontian people. The issue will matter, especially outside West Torontia where it has been widely reported since it came to light.

...will be widely believed, will be damning
They happened. Only Amestria and its puppet government deny this fact. That the TNCP has lied to its people will be a major defining element of the election campaign (especially when the issue becomes topical again with the emergence of yet more damning evidence that the TNCP has lied about committing atrocities).

You think the TPG is that blatant when it comes to censoring bad news/criticism?
It is blatant. You cannot have complete blanket ban on all foreign media for an entire year without censorship being as blatant as possible.

Even broadcasts from East Torontia are censored by the overly sensitive TPG. The TPG is not capable of dealing with criticism to its regime.

The popular perception will be that the TNCP both lies and silences criticism.

You talk about it as if it will.
How disingenuous. It is you who is asserting it as an “advantage”.

It is an estimate made due to various factors including witness testimony, the scale of the operation, the amount of time that the policy was in place for, the number of missing persons unnacounted for, etc.

No witness testimony would have been allowed as no one has been let into BC (no one saw the executions anyway who was not working for the government) and the missing persons have been erased...so you would not get anything from those two.

None of which proves illegal killing. If there was an allegation of illegal homicide, it would have been brought before a Court.

The Kahanistanian government refused to prosocute because of political pressure. They then PARDONED HIM (which makes it very clear a crime occured, thank you very much).

More evidence will surface in the next few weeks which further conclusively proves Amestrian warcrimes violations. It will also bring the issue back to prominence.

No it won't, all the bodies are on the bottem of the ocean in little concrete blocks and as I have said it will take at least two years of constant searching to find them.


I disagree that the fact that the Torontians despise the Tanakis will give the TNCP a licence to commit murder in the eyes of Torontian people. The issue will matter, especially outside West Torontia where it has been widely reported since it came to light.

Only 5000 people were killed, out of a population of 500 million and in a war zone were 45,000 people died in a terrorist-bio weapon attack.

Get some proportionality into your head, 5000 people a year is half the number killed by fire arms in RL America each year and Torontia is a very violent place.

How disingenuous. It is you who is asserting it as an “advantage”.

I am asserting the defeat of the TPLA was an avantage. The defeat of a genocidal terrorist group that killed over 45,000 people and attempted to kill millions.

Halberdgardia/McKagan: Have/Had imperial ambitions in Torontia and an interest is discrediting the government. Also they are very biased, the Mckaganese media at one point even denied a bio-attack had taken place, claiming it was the flu (you can imagene that TPG progogandists made good use of this, playing Lou's broadcasts alongside pictures of peoples heads exploding from fluid buildup).

Yallak: Took part in the BC anti-inserection campaign.

The Lone Alliance: Has spun it as positive.

Red Tide: Genocide at Spokane and bombing of Vancouver with WMD in an attempt to carve Torontia into their own little play ground, I think it is fair to point out they are hated by a fair number in East and West Torontia (particularly those they maimed or who lost family) and by all Torontian nationalists.

Leafanistan: Broadcast a video of Amestrian soldiers executing prisioners and conducting massicures in East Torontia... Were no Amestrian soldiers were. The video was an obvious forgery/fake and Amestria/TPG have made good use of that to destroy Leaf's credability on this issue.

There will be far larger issues then BC btw, such as ensuring security (more people died in the post-collapse chaos then were killed secretly by the TPG), hunting down the remaining New Order (Tanakis still at large), reviving the Economy, redestributing wealth (the New Order stole a great deal of property, which needs to be redistributed in a fair pragmatic manner), writing Regional Constitutions, est.

Then there is the issue of Foreign Military bases...

BTW: You keep claiming that the people of East Torontia will trust Xirnium for bringing them the greatness of its common law... What I have put for so far has been far more reasonable then that. I have given plenty of concrete reasons and backed them up with historical facts.

In speaking of political cynicism, has anyone heard of Riverbend (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/)? I'm considering of do something like she did, an anonymous Torontian teenager and the collapse of the New Order, all the way to present day.

No witness testimony would have been allowed as no one has been let into BC (no one saw the executions anyway who was not working for the government) and the missing persons have been erased...so you would not get anything from those two.
Witness testimony has been gathered from Kahanistanians involved in the atrocities and if the TNCP has deleted missing persons records it only further highlights the fact that Amestria’s puppet government lies (because these people most certainly have family, friends and acquaintances who want to know where they are or suspect the people to have been murdered by the TPG).

They then PARDONED HIM (which makes it very clear a crime occurred, thank you very much).
Please... you and I both know you can’t be pardoned for a crime which you haven’t been convicted of.

No it won't, all the bodies are on the bottem of the ocean in little concrete blocks and as I have said it will take at least two years of constant searching to find them.

I call bullshit on this.

Torontia is perhaps the most spied on place on Earth. Surveillance satellites would note the position and path taken by any vessel in Torontian waters (especially those taken at the time when mass grave sites were being dug up). The bottom of these areas could be searched with sophisticated SONAR equipment to determine the location of the concrete blocks. They could then be retrieved.

Get some proportionality into your head, 5000 people a year is half the number killed by fire arms in RL America each year and Torontia is a very violent place.
I doubt that will be relevant. All that will matter is that the Amestrian puppet government blatantly lies to its own people about its crimes.

Witness testimony has been gathered from Kahanistanians involved in the atrocities and if the TNCP has deleted missing persons records it only further highlights the fact that Amestria’s puppet government lies (because these people most certainly have family, friends and acquaintances who want to know where they are or suspect the people to have been murdered by the TPG).

Lots of files went missing during the collapse, chaos, and Red Tides shelling of the government center in Seattle. I would not be surprised if millions of pre-collapse records were lost, and by deletion, that did not mean the TPG denied they existed, just that they had no records concerning them (other then those that would prove New Order connections).

Please... you and I both know you can’t be pardoned for a crime which you haven’t been convicted of.

Not to be offensive but you are dead wrong, take Nixon.

Torontia is perhaps the most spied on place on Earth. Surveillance satellites would note the position and path taken by any vessel in Torontian waters (especially those taken at the time when mass grave sites were being dug up). The bottom of these areas could be searched with sophisticated SONAR equipment to determine the location of the concrete blocks. They could then be retrieved.

They were dropped in the deep ocean and no one knows were to look. No one even suspects they were dropped as BC has yet to be searched. Two years at the least.

As for survialance data, no one posted on any of it at the time and you cannot retroactively RP it into existence, therefore it does not exist.

I doubt that will be relevant. All that will matter is that the Amestrian puppet government blatantly lies to its own people about its crimes.

It is very relevant. And stop calling it a puppet government!

BTW: You keep claiming that the people of East Torontia will trust Xirnium for bringing them the greatness of its common law...

Xirnium removed the incompetent Saint Fedski occupation and its puppet State, but rather then forming its own imperial regime it has worked tirelessly since that day to help the people form a national Torontian government.

Xirnium also removed the draconian Saint Fedskian laws on the very day it occupied Torontia and replaced it with the full protections available under the liberal Xirniumite Common Law (ie, not military rule like in Amestrian Torontia, but the same laws that its own people are protected by).

Xirnium's political efforts put an abrupt end to the Torontian Civil War and prevented a second civil war breaking out.

Xirnium has shown it actually cares about the atrocities commited by the occupational governments which have been present in Torontia.

Xirnium, has shown only compassion to Torontians, spending millions on improving infrastructure in East Torontia.

I contend that Xirnium will be looked at very positively by most Torontians, and that it will also generally be trusted.

Xirnium, has shown only compassion to Torontians, spending millions on improving infrastructure in East Torontia.

Amestria spent hundreds of billions.

Xirnium has shown it actually cares about the atrocities commited by the occupational governments which have been present in Torontia.

I have pointed out a number of reasons why that would not be a major issue (preportionality being one of them).

BTW: You will notice I have added a list of disadvantages to the TNCP...

BTW2: Where is your list, or are you just going to keep tearing into mine with arguements I have successfully rebuked.

that did not mean the TPG denied they existed, just that they had no records concerning them
The TPG’s word isn’t worth anything

Not to be offensive but you are dead wrong, take Nixon.
You said, however, that a pardon imputes guilt. The pardon that Nixon was given did not, it merely immunised him from prosecution.

Was the Kahanistanian soldier given the same pardon? We don’t know what he was pardoned for, and therefore can impute no guilt from it.

They were dropped in the deep ocean and no one knows were to look.
The ships that went into the deep ocean would be the most suspicious of all, what were they doing there?

And stop calling it a puppet government!
It is, in my opinion, though.

Amestria spent hundreds of billions.
Amestria was not invaded by Torontia in a past war of aggression, though.

The TPG’s word isn’t worth anything

That is a matter of opinon, the TSU members the TPG pardoned have a far different opinon.

You said, however, that a pardon imputes guilt. The pardon that Nixon was given did not, it merely immunised him from prosecution.

Was the Kahanistanian soldier given the same pardon? We don’t know what he was pardoned for, and therefore can impute no guilt from it.

He was pardoned for everything, and everyone knows you are only pardoned if you did something that someone can go after you for.

That on top of the evidence collected makes it quite clear he commited terrorism.

The ships that went into the deep ocean would be the most suspicious of all, what were they doing there?

Carrying Amestrian troops, planes, equipment, and personnel back home. It was a massive undertaking.

It is in my opinion, though.

I am not asking for it in this case, just say TPG, (which also saves time).

Amestria was not invaded by Torontia in a past war of aggression, though.

Just pointing out Amestria spent far more in Torontia then Xirnium ever will and that should also be taken into account.

That is a matter of opinion, the TSU members the TPG pardoned have a far different opinon.
Their opinion is irrelevant. The TPG has been exposed as blatantly and shamelessly continuing to lie about the atrocities it committed. Nothing it says can ever be trusted.

In speaking of political cynicism, has anyone heard of Riverbend (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10355675&postcount=80)? I'm considering of do something like she did, an anonymous Torontian teenager and the collapse of the New Order, all the way to present day.
Well....

Well....

I think that would be too contentious until we have everything worked out...also there are the CURRENT threads that need responses to...

Nothing it says can ever be trusted.

The TPG's kept its word in regards to the TSU pardon, everyone who was pardoned (unless they commited some civil crime) is free, unmolested, and politically active. The TSU, although concetrated in BC, has a pressence throughout Western Torontia.

That is a very public example of the TPG telling the truth and keeping its word.

That is a very public example of the TPG telling the truth and keeping its word.
One can't lie about everything. The TPG lies where it is politically expedient and keeps its word when it isn't.

Well....
I must confess I could not understand anything said in that link of yours, much less fathom what it might have to do with Riverbend.

As I recall, you mentioned this proposal a long time ago, and nothing came of it...

One can't lie about everything. The TPG keeps its word where it is politically expedient and lies when it isn't.

Yes, and as the TPG is the only organization to do this in the history of Torontia, nay the world, that is indeed damning [sarcasm].

I must confess I could not understand anything said in that link of yours, much less fathom what it might have to do with Riverbend.

That link is rather inane.

I only suggested this recently. Riverbend is the online alias of an anonymous Iraqi writing about the conditions going on there, I was wondering whether I could do the same. EDIT - I changed the link, wrong one I put in...stupid me. :headbang: Here is it (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/).

I only suggested this recently. Riverbend is the online alias of an anonymous Iraqi writing about the conditions going on there, I was wondering whether I could do the same...

I suggest you have Mr. Ho reply to Heather on the convention thread.

I'm going to Singapore and later on the Maldives, tommorow, how can I finish it in time?

Easy - you write it and be done. No one else takes days to write out a novel for each reply. It's as simple as posting what needs to be done.

On the note of finding the bodies - I have some issues with both sides of it. They WERE dumped when Amestria was pulling out of the nation. Thus, the vessels that did it wouldn't have stood out very much.

However, I don't agree in it taking 2 years to find them. Just because Amestria says it will doesn't mean we have to wait that long. You're just throwing out a number and declaring it fact. There's alot of factors. Right now McKagan isn't fighting a single war. We could pull a few HUNDRED vessels off their patrols or out of the Kravanian theatre and speed things up to 6 months/year - which is probably what i'm going to do.

We could pull a few HUNDRED vessels off their patrols or out of the Kravanian theatre and speed things up to 6 months/year - which is probably what i'm going to do.

That is using OOC information IC as you have no idea were to the bodies are (Mckagan has not even searched BC yet).

Also, such a massive opperation would leave Mckagan extremely vulnrable or embarking on such a massive opperation is not realistic.

Plus you would be searching most/if not all of the Deep North Eastern Pacific.

That is using OOC information IC as you have no idea were to the bodies are (Mckagan has not even searched BC yet).

Also, such a massive opperation would leave Mckagan extremely vulnrable or embarking on such a massive opperation is not realistic.

Plus you would be searching most/if not all of the Deep North Eastern Pacific.

Sounds like a waste of both time and money in my opinion. Who would send a whole Navy out to find something that they don't even know what or where whatever the thing is is located?

Calm down. I didn't say I was going to do it. You're acting as if searching is an impossibility.

How do you know that McKagan would search one at a time? What makes you think they wouldn't search both places at once?

Yes, and as the TPG is the only organization to do this in the history of Torontia, nay the world, that is indeed damning [sarcasm].
Am I the only one who thinks that a bold-faced lie by a government to its own people about atrocities it was engaged in (drawing condemnation from a significiant segment of the international community and resulting in political isolation), if properly exploited during an election campaign, could indeed be damning?

Am I the only one who thinks that a bold-faced lie by a government to its own people about atrocities it was engaged in (drawing condemnation from a significiant segment of the international community and resulting in political isolation), if properly exploited during an election campaign, could indeed be damning?
Besides you and maybe McKagan... Yes.


Firstly
Atrocities? It was 300 bodies! It's not like they found a concentration camp or something. This wasn't a Genocide you know. More people died in the Vancouver Battles alone. You still have no proof that there were Amestiran or TPG soldiers on the scene and were the ones that did it. They also (Big argument that the TPG can make if they were exposed) have no clue on if they were prisoners or hostiles killed in battle and burned to prevent the infection.

Secondly the only publicly announced 'proof' was that the Lone Alliance had an article on the reasons for the deaths. (Remember)

Thirdly, would a nation go through all this trouble to try and 'fix' an election for a nation that they stood away from when all this happened? *Sniff* Smells like Imperialism to me. And you can bet the opponets to your parties will be screaming it the whole time.

Am I the only one who thinks that a bold-faced lie by a government to its own people about atrocities it was engaged in (drawing condemnation from a significiant segment of the international community and resulting in political isolation), if properly exploited during an election campaign, could indeed be damning?

You fail to realize that the Torontian people would have far greater concerns then a few alleged killings that occured in the midst of a diseased war zone...

LIKE ECONOMIC RESTRUCTURING

And Torontia for the past 20 years has been very isolated (with the exception of the three year Norton regime), so being isolated is nothing new (and the fact is that the TPG is far from isolated, as its pressence at the convention proves, it is just disliked by certain nations whose interests it opposes).

Please... you and I both know you can’t be pardoned for a crime which you haven’t been convicted of.

Actually, that's not entirely correct, at least in all legal systems (an RL example is when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for any crimes he may have committed in office, though he had not even been formally charged, IIRC.)

Atrocities? It was 300 bodies!
Few seriously believe it was only 300. It was in the thousands at least, possibly as high as ten thousand.

It's not like they found a concentration camp or something. This wasn't a Genocide you know
You’re right, it wasn’t. But it was systematic. These weren’t “heat of the moment” atrocities, they were state policy.

You still have no proof that there were Amestiran or TPG soldiers on the scene and were the ones that did it. They also (Big argument that the TPG can make if they were exposed) have no clue on if they were prisoners or hostiles killed in battle and burned to prevent the infection.
Except for the representations of many dozens of Kahanistanian military and government officials and except for the official position of the Kahanistanian government.

Thirdly, would a nation go through all this trouble to try and 'fix' an election for a nation that they stood away from when all this happened? *Sniff* Smells like Imperialism to me.
If anything, an example of imperialism is the party of a puppet government that collaborated with a foreign occupational military in Torontia for over a year (whose leadership consists largely of individuals who have lived in exile in Amestria for many years) attempting to win government.

Actually, that's not entirely correct, at least in all legal systems (an RL example is when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for any crimes he may have committed in office, though he had not even been formally charged, IIRC.)
The US Presidential pardon is curious in that it can be used at any time after commission of the alleged offence and the pardoned person need not have been convicted or even formally charged with a crime. In the UK and Commonwealth legal systems, I'm fairly certain that pardon, which is called the Royal prerogative of mercy, is only applied after criminal conviction. The same is the case with Presidential pardon in France.

Long story short, I withdraw my original position. I was speaking from my own legal system (which I sometimes do by mistake). Kahanistan's is obviously different, but I still question whether Foster is legally guilty of anything, since he hasn't been convicted by a Court (perhaps you can clarify?)

No, Foster's legally innocent as far as the Kahanistanian government is concerned. A warrant was put out on him, but that was dissolved when he was pardoned. He had charges filed against him in absentia, which were dropped and he was ruled to have been justified in his actions.

UPDATED
Torontian Socialist Union Advantages

Won many seats in past local Elections.

Strong Grass Roots Campagian in the rural areas of Torontia.

Fought for their Independence.
(Lost, but still you have to respect their courage)

Helped to defeat the TPLA.

Strongly codemination against New Order Criminals, large appeal to the ones who want revenge against The New Order.

Strongly Believes in keeping Civil Rights.

Possesses legitamacy as a long running resistence organization opposed to the New Order.

A well known leader (Brovan).

Disadvantages

Supported secret (technically not illegal) killings in BC

Destroyed TPG and Torontia Civilian assets.

Followers tend to be in remote locations

Accused of being a Nortan type government by the TLP.

------

Leader of the Torontian Socialist Union Bio
Name: Mark Nise Brovan
Sex:Male
Age: 44
Hair: Brown (Greying)
Height: 6.0
Former Postion: College Professor of History, Capilano College, Vancouver (BC)
Current Position: President\Leader of the Torontian Socialist Union
Ethnic Group: Cacusian, some Inuit.
Region: Former British Columbia
Religion: Unitarian
Defining physical feature: A fatherly appearence

Torontian Liberal Party

Advantages


Strong grassroots campaign in Southwestern Torontia.

Spreading Slowly Northward with pockets in other areas.

Clean hands - not involved in any of Torontia's bloody past.

Massive McKagan Corporate Funding.

Backed by McKagan Military Presense.

Promoted as one of the only parties with 'new ideas' that haven't already been tried in Torontia and failed miserably.

Being allied with McKagan opens it up diplomatically with the parties that are funded and promoted by McKagan allies. In a Non-Winner-Take-All system political alliances are critical.

Generally accepted in Eastern Torontia by both civilians and SDLT. Strong chance of program there once travel restrictions become easier to deal with.

Strong Party Identity

Links to McKagan corporate community attract wide scale foreign investment that is heavily overwatched by the McKagan government. Investors are generally looking for a place to form a new economy that relies on their business. In some circles where corporation and government are closely related this can even create foreign alliances.

Secular. Strong anti-religious statements ensure those who believe in chuch and state that those who want to create another religious state will never be on friendly terms with TLP.


Disadvantages


Lacks ability to financially support its own level of yearly growth.

Lacks Urban Communication Ability.

Tied to decisions of McKagan military commanders who may or may not think politically at times.

Supporters are generally poor due to beliefs which were illegal in the old government. This goes back to the parties inability to financially support itself.

May offend religious community when Josh Ward speaks on religion.

Current Activities


Adding funding for grassroots campaigning in urban areas.

Creating "Power Members" for future campaigns using McKagan funds to create the illusion of wealth.

Attempting to research the "underfinger" history of Torontia - allbeit slow.

Supporting small businesses in South Western Torontia (SWT) to gain economic backbone.


Alliances

LIKE ECONOMIC RESTRUCTURING

I've got some issues with how you've promoted the Western Torontian economy so far.

Haven't you made posts about it gaining ground? If you have, that really blows the issue of Western Torontians worrying about it away. They would probably UNDERSTAND that the economy is going to take time to come back.

The point is that you can't promote it both ways.

If the TPG ICly says that it's been doing a great job because the economy is coming back you cannoy OOCly say that the Torontians would still have a majority of their attention focused on it.

I've got some issues with how you've promoted the Western Torontian economy so far.

Haven't you made posts about it gaining ground? If you have, that really blows the issue of Western Torontians worrying about it away. They would probably UNDERSTAND that the economy is going to take time to come back.

The point is that you can't promote it both ways.

If the TPG ICly says that it's been doing a great job because the economy is coming back you cannoy OOCly say that the Torontians would still have a majority of their attention focused on it.

When the TPG says the economy is coming back and bring up how they have reduced unemployment on the O.P. that should not be taken as a sign of a healthy economy...

The economies of both West and East Torontia are still based on the old New Order Industrial model and have been kept alive only by life support (i.e. government subsidy and foreign aid). The O.P.'s unemployment has mainly been fought by throwing huge amounts of money around and expanding the public sector (Mitsune comments that it is pork barrel spending at its worst). This economy is unsustainable (Mitsune remarks how Torontia's factories, East or West, produce either war materials or value subtracted products, products that are less valuable then the origional raw materials) and the economic picture is thus somewhat grim unless there is wide spread structural reform.

When you throw into the picture that the average Torontian is undereducated thanks to the events of the last 20 years and the legal ownership of vast amounts of property is up in the air, the overall picture becomes even more complicated.

Question:

Would it lead to better relations between the TNCP/TPG and McKagan if McKagan started a massive funding program to help rebuild the Torontian economy? If the TNCP put enough trust behind McKagan companies and massive corporate investments there's a good chance that the economy could come back strong in a few years.

Not only would it boost McKagan's image in the theatre - but make the TPG look less like a paranoid group of isolationists.

Question:

Would it lead to better relations between the TNCP/TPG and McKagan if McKagan started a massive funding program to help rebuild the Torontian economy? If the TNCP put enough trust behind McKagan companies and massive corporate investments there's a good chance that the economy could come back strong in a few years.

Not only would it boost McKagan's image in the theatre - but make the TPG look less like a paranoid group of isolationists.

The TPG will stop any and all Mckagan investment in the West Torontian economy...those planes and helocopters skirting along the edge of Raymond have not put them in a good mood. Plus it threatens in the TNCP's position as the bread and butter distribriture (the TNCP could easily defend their actions by pointing out that Mckagan is conducting illegal military opperations and has a long record of imperialism).

Also, there would not be enough time for the investment to have the desired effect before the elections, so it is a moot point anyway. (I also assume many Mckagan companies will want to wait until Torontia is reunited and secure before risking their money in it).

The TPG will stop any and all Mckagan investment in the West Torontian economy...those planes and helocopters skirting along the edge of Raymond have not put them in a good mood. Plus it threatens in the TNCP's position as the bread and butter distribriture (the TNCP could easily defend their actions by pointing out that Mckagan is conducting illegal military opperations and has a long record of imperialism).

And McKagan will laugh at the term "illegal" military operation. The TPG hasn't exactly made it easy to operate in Torontia. McKagan is in a bad mood because of that. This is just their way of showing it.

Also, there would not be enough time for the investment to have the desired effect before the elections, so it is a moot point anyway. (I also assume many Mckagan companies will want to wait until Torontia is reunited as secure before risking their money in it).

True.

The Economy of Western Torontia


Central (Amestria's capital) sends the TPG Billions of USD

The TNCP controled TPG then spends those Billions of Dollars

The Billions of Dollars spent by the TPG then disapear forever down Torontia's black hole.

Central sends them more money...and the circle continues


A similar system exists in the East, although S.F. has been replaced by Xirnium and Xirnium is only spending millions in direct aid (although Xirnium is not funding an entire government).

Social Democratic League of Torontia (SDLT)

Current Economic Situation in East Torontia

The East Torontian economy which was inherited by the Nidor Government suffered from severe deficiencies in several important areas, in part because of the decades of mismanagement, disastrous fiscal policies, and bizarre economic ideologies of the various Torontian autocracies, and in part because of the substandard and incompetent Saint Fedskian administration of the occupied territories.

Xirniumite administration of East Torontia has proven to be a desperately needed breath of fresh air for the troubled Torontian economy. The High Ecclesiarchy has spent hundreds of millions financing public works designed not only to repair damaged infrastructure but also to place a dent in the previously rampant structural unemployment rate. This has had a cumulative effect, and the increase in disposable income (a result also of the transfer payments which are a feature of Xirniumite countercyclical fiscal policy) has raised consumption and stimulated the East Torontian economy, especially when combined with special tax incentives for local business and the supply-side economic policies and tax reforms initiated by the High Ecclesiarchy.

Xirniumite companies have begun investing in East Torontia. This has allowed the economy to exploit its comparative advantage of cheap labour. East Torontia also makes gains from international trade by producing and exporting labour-intensive products. These gains from exports provide an important source of income which can be invested in East Torontia in order to increase both the amount of capital available per worker and the level of technology (promoting growth). In addition to the Keynesian policies described in the previous paragraph, this investment also results in decreased unemployment, higher consumption, and therefore increased production by local companies.

East Torontia has benefited also from the sound monetary policy of the Nidor Government. Monetarist policies have been implemented in order to prevent erratic shifts in monetary policy, preventing boom-bust cycles which might harm the economy and ensuring stability and long-term low inflation.

Finally, the lowering of restrictions on private enterprise has also strongly benefited the East Torontian economy. East Torontia certainly has a long way to come, but thanks to serious reform by the Xirniumite government a faint glimmer of hope has finally appeared.

[Extract: Xirniumite Financial Express]


Advantages of the SDLT

Has long maintained a strong following in Northeast Torontia, stretching back to its period of revolutionary activity against the New Order regimes. Is a well established labour party, formed in 1911.

Strong grass roots campaign amongst working class Torontians. Maintains ties with workers’ unions which gives it credibility.

Long history of political activism and dissidence in defence of ordinary Torontians, even during the darkness of the New Order periods.

Is not tainted by the claims of corruption, civil and political rights abuses, or collaboration that affect some of the other parties.

Sound economic policies which can appeal to both the working classes and big business alike.

Unrivalled and uncompromising support of liberal civil and political rights. Progressive social policies.

Benefits by association with the Eternal Republic of Xirnium, which has been largely responsible for ensuring that Torontia asserts its self-determination, remains unified and independent, and forms its own national government. [Click here for a list of reasons for Xirnium’s good renown in East Torontia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10707897#post10707897)].

The only major Torontian party to have described accountability and transparency in government as a primary political policy.

Is one of only two major parties to have come to prominence in East Torontia following Saint Fedski’s departure, and is currently the only political party engaged in grassroots campaigning throughout the Xirniumite occupied territories.


Disadvantages of the SDLT

Lacks the financial backing of some of the other political parties, which limit its capabilities. The High Ecclesiarchy is officially strictly non-partisan in regards to Torontia’s internal affairs.

Is less well known outside of East Torontia (where TPG censorship prohibits parties from campaigning).

Is untried in Government. The SDLT has never held power.


Biography of the Party Leader of the SDLT

Name: Magnus Erthwig
Sex: Male
Age: 49
Hair: Black (with streaks of grey)
Height: 5 foot, 10 inches
Party Positions:

Member, SDLT National Executive 1979-84

Vice President, SDLT 1984-86

Treasurer, SDLT 1986-89

Qualifications: MA, LLB (Hons), Rhodes Scholar
Ethnicity: Torontian
Region: Northeast Torontia
Religion: Refused to specify response
Defining physical feature: A slightly gaunt appearance

A similar system exists in the East, although S.F. has been replaced by Xirnium and Xirnium is only spending millions in direct aid (although Xirnium is not funding an entire government).
A similar system existed in the East before the Xirnium occupation, but not anymore (I certainly wouldn’t describe what Xirnium is doing as throwing money down a black hole, it is carefully targeted and having very real effects in stimulating the economy).

Another important difference is in the area of exports. The TPG is politically and economically isolated from much of the world, recognised by virtually no nation as a legitimate government (except for Amestria) and thus has not had a great opportunity to benefit from the gains from trade.

East Torontia is different. It has been able to begin selling its labour-intensive products abroad, exploiting its comparative advantage in this area in order to invest in improving the productivity of labour and capital (which increases potential GDP and living standards).

The same holds true for investment. West Torontia is diplomatically and economically isolated, East Torontia is open thanks to Xirnium.

Plus it threatens in the TNCP's position as the bread and butter distribriture
In my opinion, this strong central control over the West Torontian market would have significant detrimental effects over the ability of the economy to recover from its decades of mismanagement.

Mitsune remarks how Torontia's factories, East or West, produce either war materials or value subtracted products, products that are less valuable then the origional raw materials
Would this not be a serious example of complete market failure? The market is clearly not allocating resources efficiently if they are being wasted making a product less valuable then it already was.

This definitely is not occurring in East Torontia. The law of supply and demand would dictate that such firms will shut down in the short term and leave those industries. Incentives have been provided to factories in East Torontia to enter more profitable industries.

This hasn’t all happened yet, but it soon will

The National Paleolibertarianist Party of Torontia (NPPT)

The NPPT was once a prominent political entity in the early period of the rise of the New Order, that went by the name of the Torontian Nationalist Party (TNP). The party was a splinter group of Tanakis’ Torontian Fascist Party (TFP). The group became well known and gained much experience as they followed Tanakis along his path to power in Torontia.

Though they were opposed to the move by the TFP when it took complete control and self-proclaimed Tanakis as ruler of Torontia, the party remained (apparently) loyal to avoid reprisals and although they kept faithfully to their work they refrained from joining others in their attempts to gain Tanakis’ favour and positions of power. This had two affects: It unfortunately lost them much of the distinction they had gained, reducing the TNP members to minor governmental roles, but it also allowed them to isolate much of their activities from the crimes of the New Order regime.
At the downfall of the New Order, and the following period of occupations by foreign nations, the TNP all but vanished from existence, escaping the blame and arrest warrants placed on most of the people involved with Tanakis and the New Order.

Recently however, the TNP members have reemerged under the same leadership as the NPPT and now seem to have access to a vast fortune and an extensive network of contacts.

Principle Policies/Goals

- Strengthening national unity
- Rejecting (or at least limiting) foreign influences
- Limiting immigration
- Promoting the economy and economic policies
- National inclusion and equal rights: eg. The same social and political rights for the whole populace (not just elites)
- Maintaining proper legal and political institutions
- Opposing interventionist policy
- Stamp out corruption

Advantages

- Very Well Known / Previous Experience: In period before the New Order was formed the TNP was a sub group in the Torontian Fascist Party, the leading political party, and it's members held many positions of office. The NPPT now benefits from their previous popularity and confirmed supporters.

- Proven Talent: The members of the NPPT were forced to work for Tanakis when he formed the New Orders regime. Unlike many others however, they survived the repercussions and witch hunts that followed Tanakis’ downfall through a series of delicate political maneuvers.

- Ties to the General Public: As an avowed promoter of Torontian culture and equal rights, the NPPT have captured the loyalty and support of many citizens, especially those who suffered under Tanakis or during the following foreign occupations.

- Capital Influence: The NPPT is based in and around the city of Seattle, the capital of Torontia. They are at the center of all the action that is taking place in Torontia and the extra attention cannot be a bad thing.

- Strong Backing: This party now works side by side with the Empire of Yallak and has near limitless resources and financial backing. Not to mention that Yallak was responsible for liberating Torontia from the New Order and has been the only nation who has maintain a constant and unwavering rebuilding effort in Torontia.

- Free Media: The party has complete media access across all of Eastern Torontia and also into the BC area.

- The Importance of Infrastructure: In line with in people first policies, the NPPT has initiated a large scale public works project – ranging from the rebuilding of damages (like Seattle Airport) to improving essentials (like roads, housing and shopping centers) to erecting completely new entertainment complex’s or public areas (like parks).

Disadvantages

- Against High Society: By opposing the previously installed Aristocratic method of governance, the NPPT has distanced itself from the support of the rich minority.

- Restricted Media: The NPPT will likely get little media coverage into Western Torontia thanks to the censorship of the TPG; though that can also provide good propaganda.

- A Flaky Record: The gap in the parties activities has caused many to wonder whether or not there are ulterior motives to this sudden appearance. Some others also remember that they were once a pawn under Tanakis.

Would this not be a serious example of complete market failure? The market is clearly not allocating resources efficiently if they are being wasted making a product less valuable then it already was.

This definitely is not occurring in East Torontia. The law of supply and demand would dictate that such firms will shut down in the short term and leave those industries. Incentives have been provided to factories in East Torontia to enter more profitable industries.

Remember that Xirnium has only been in charge of East Torontia for little over a month... Although there wouldl be improvements (a breath of fresh air), the fact remains that the New Order system and the layers S.F. added to it could not be dismantled so quickly without major pain/shock. SF you should remember nationalized all heavy industry and had the TIG run it directly. SF also had its trade partners buy everything produced regardless of quality (giving the illusion of economic growth). One month is not enough to correct that perverson, if Xirnium really shut down those factories there would be wide spread labor unrest and massive pain...which would significantly decrease its popularity (economic reforms tend to be unpopular until the benefits kick in, which in Torontias case would not be for several years). Trying to shock the East into a vibrant economy would produce a Russian situation...

Also, the factories cannot be so quickly turned from war production to peace time production and the quality falls far behind that of other nations.

In addition, Southeast Torontia has the problem of illegal substances, controband, and crime syndicates crossing into it from Idaho, which would have a measured negative effect on economic growth.

This hasn’t all happened yet, but it soon will

The National Paleolibertarianist Party of Torontia (NPPT)

The NPPT was once a prominent political entity, before the rise of the New Order, that went by the name of the Torontian Nationalist Party (TNP).

- Very Well Known / Previous Experience: Before the rise of the New Order, the TNP was a leading political party and held officer on several occasions. The NPPT now benefits from their previous popularity and confirmed supporters.

I am afraid that goes against the history of Torontia as written by the origional Torontian player. Pre-Kaufman Torontia had three party's, the Republican Party, the Democratic Party (the two main party's), and the Green Party (and insurgent third party that never managed to gain dominance). Only those parties ever held power. During the Norton Era the Communist Party was in charge. The NPPT thus has never held power. This part needs to be corrected.

- Proven Talent: The members of the NPPT were forced to work for Tanakis during the New Orders reign. Unlike many others however, they survived the repercussions and witch hunts that followed Tanakis’ downfall through a series of delicate political maneuvers.

Should also (at least) be a disadvantage for obvious reasons.

- Strong Backing: This party now works side by side with the Empire of Yallak and has near limitless resources and financial backing. Not to mention that Yallak was responsible for liberating Torontia from the New Order and has been the only nation who has maintain a constant and unwavering rebuilding effort in Torontia.

Please provide a link to some of your posts on rebuilding (I do not remember you posting on 'a constant and unwavering rebuilding effort). Also, Yallak bombed Seattle...destroying the very airport that has been rebuilt (and I though Xirnium rebuilt that airport, which is just one landing strip and a control tower).

- Capital Influence: The NPPT is based in and around the city of Seattle, the capital of Torontia. They are at the center of all the action that is taking place in Torontia and the extra attention cannot be a bad thing.

Former Capital (Seattle is no longer the Capital and will be replaced by a Federal city), so they are no longer at the center of the action (although Eastern Torontia is still managed from Seattle, Western Torontia is now managed from Port Angeles and Raymond... while BC is managed by the Governor General who has relocated to the very center of the region(s) and a combination of TSU controled local governments/TPG military authorities).

Seattle also should be a disadvantage because of the deep resentment many have for it and the "Seattle Elites" (much of the negativety held towards past failed governments has found itself transfered to Seattle itself with the disappearance of those governments).

Disadvantages

- Against High Society: By opposing the previously installed Aristocratic method of governance, the NPPT has distance itself from the support of the rich minority.

The New Order was never High Society, they were populists, ideological thugs, and crooks (the New Order could never be discribed as Aristocratic, thugish is how they would be described). Also, the rich minority of the Tanakis era are gone, they have pretty much been replaced by a new rich minority in both East and West.


- A Flaky Record: The gap in the parties activities has caused many to wonder whether or not there are ulterior motives to this sudden appearance.

You forgot that it is the only party so far to have once collaperated with the New Order...

SF also had its trade partners buy everything produced regardless of quality (giving the illusion of economic growth). One month is not enough to correct that perverson, if Xirnium really shut down those factories there would be wide spread labour unrest and massive pain...which would significantly decrease its popularity
Xirnium has not shut down factories (East Torontia’s economy is now free market) but it certainly is not buying products worth less then the base materials used to make them. That would be madness.

Labour unrest is drastically mitigated by the public works projects currently underway in East Torontia. Any workers now unemployed from a factory that was previously making useless products will be able to find a job building infrastructure (for example, Seattle International Airport, though repaired and functional, is being improved and modernised).

The firms themselves, as I previously explained, have been given incentives to enter more profitable industries.

The High Ecclesiarchy has gone to great efforts to make this win/win for everyone.

economic reforms tend to be unpopular until the benefits kick in, which in Torontias case would not be for several years
It depends, so long as people have jobs economic reforms are not so traumatic (and everyone now has jobs). Also, the Xirniumite industrial relations laws which have been imported to East Torontia would have dramatically ameliorated workers conditions and pay compared to the situation under the New Order and Saint Fedskian occupation, which would also be regarded favourably.

Trying to shock the East into a vibrant economy would produce a Russian situation...
Shock is not how I would regard it, Xirnium is gently nudging the East Torontian economy towards strength. A Russian situation is unlikely because the government in Xirnium is keeping a close eye on developments and carefully initiating changes (there was nothing careful nor was there even really any control over the changes which happened in the former Soviet Union).

Also, the factories cannot be so quickly turned from war production to peace time production and the quality falls far behind that of other nations.
The quality issue is not so great a problem so long as the economy mainly produces labour-intensive rather then capital-intensive products. In other words, its less of a problem if the factory chooses to produce ball bearings rather than computer chips. Changing production, of course, takes time, but it can be done.

In addition, Southeast Torontia has the problem of illegal substances, controband, and crime syndicates crossing into it from Idaho, which would have a measured negative effect on economic growth.
Organised crime and lawlessness will be dealt with mercilessly by the Xirniumite and Yallakian authorities. They are Rule of Law violations, after all.

I am afraid that goes against the history of Torontia as written by the origional Torontian player. Pre-Kaufman Torontia had three party's, the Republican Party, the Democratic Party (the two main party's), and the Green Party (and insurgent third party that never managed to gain dominance). Only those parties ever held power. During the Norton Era the Communist Party was in charge. The NPPT thus has never held power.
The NPPT might have held power in the period preceding the Republican/Democrat era (say intermittently from 1900 to 1940s). Alternative, it might have held power locally.

Former Capital (Seattle is no longer the Capital and will be replaced by a Federal city), so they are no longer at the center of the action (although Eastern Torontia is still managed from Seattle, Western Torontia is now managed from Port Angeles and Raymond... while BC is managed by the Governor General who has relocated to the very center of the region(s) and a combination of TSU controled local governments/TPG military authorities).
That said, it stands to reason that Seattle will be the economic and commercial centre of Torontia for some time to come following reunification, since that is what it was prior to the fall of the New Order.

Hmm...
Xirniumite companies have begun investing in East Torontia. This has allowed the economy to exploit its comparative advantage of cheap labour. There isn't even a government yet and already they are putting companies from other nations in Charge. That's jumping the gun a little isn't it? How do they know that some Isolationist party wouldn't be elected? Or an Anti Xirnium. The other groups can use this as a claim that Xirnium intends to rig the election.
Also this can be seen as selling the Torontian People out to Xirium Companies... Or at least that belief can be used as great Fodder for the TSU.

East Torontia has benefited also from the sound monetary policy of the Nidor Government. Monetarist policies have been implemented in order to prevent erratic shifts in monetary policy, preventing boom-bust cycles which might harm the economy and ensuring stability and long-term low inflation. They replaced the Torontian Money system with their own? Is that what it means?

Has long maintained a strong following in Northeast Torontia, stretching back to its period of revolutionary activity against the New Order regimes. Is a well established labour party, formed in 1911.
Was Torontia around back in 1911? I was thinking that Torontia was located in a Post-Collapsed North America? With the mention of Anarchist Idaho and Independent Montana being in on this RP. I thought Torontia was the result of the collapse of Canada and the US for some reasons.


Strong grass roots campaign amongst working class Torontians. Maintains ties with workers’ unions which gives it credibility.
The TSU has been doing this since before Kaufman.


Is not tainted by the claims of corruption, civil and political rights abuses, or collaboration that affect some of the other parties.
Then why are they allying themselves with Xirnium Corporations?

Sound economic policies which can appeal to both the working classes and big business alike.
Still too early to know that for certain.

There isn't even a government yet and already they are putting companies from other nations in Charge. That's jumping the gun a little isn't it? How do they know that some Isolationist party wouldn't be elected? Or an Anti Xirnium.
At present Torontia is not unified and has no government. Xirnium, as the occupying power, has a responsibility for East Torontia, and therefore has a duty to act in the present, not with regards to some hypothetical future. Investment will stimulate the economy, and reduce unemployment, and therefore the Xirniumite government is encouraging it.

If an isolationist party is elected it will harm Torontia’s economy, but so be it.

The other groups can use this as a claim that Xirnium intends to rig the election.
How? If an anti-foreign investment government gets into power the Xirniumite companies will simply shift elsewhere.

Also this can be seen as selling the Torontian People out to Xirium Companies...
"Selling out" is so unfair. These companies are giving Torontians jobs, increasing their disposable income and raising their standards of living, which has profound follow-on effects for stimulating consumption and production by local companies.

They are helping to build the East Torontian economy.

Also, let me make clear that this isn't exploitation of workers. East Torontians are now protected by progressive Xirniumite industrial relations laws and workers' rights.

They replaced the Torontian Money system with their own? Is that what it means?
“Replace” seems like a pejorative term. Xirnium has, however, taken control of the East Torontian money system, and is running it using some of the Nidor Goverrment's macroeconomic policies. It really has no choice, someone has to control East Torontia’s money system, and since Xirnium is the nation occupying it, it has that responsibility.

It hasn’t installed the Xirniumite money system in East Torontia, however.

Was Torontia around back in 1911?
I’m not sure if it was, but the SDLT was (though, of course, it wouldn’t have been called that back then.

Then why are they allying themselves with Xirnium Corporations?
The actions of the SDLT and the Xirniumite government are wholly different. The High Ecclesiarchy is non-partisan with regards to Torontian and maintains an official disintrest in domestic Torontian politics.

X - Tg

At present Torontia is not unified and has no government. Xirnium, as the occupying power, has a responsibility for East Torontia, and therefore has a duty to act in the present, not with regards to some hypothetical future. Investment will stimulate the economy, and reduce unemployment, and therefore the Xirniumite government is encouraging it. Desprate times, Desprate measures?


If an isolationist party is elected it will harm Torontia’s economy, but so be it.
Doubt that any Isolationist party would appear but it needed noting.


How? If an anti-foreign investment government gets into power the Xirniumite companies will simply shift elsewhere.
But one would assume that the Companies would try and make sure that an Anti-Foreign government would fail.


They are helping to build the East Torontian economy.
Which since the East Torontia Economy was complete garbage, took allot of work.


Also, let me make clear that this isn't exploitation of workers. East Torontians are now protected by progressive Xirniumite industrial relations laws and workers' rights.
Good, but people will need to be assured that they stay that way.


“Replace” seems like a pejorative term. Xirnium has, however, taken control of the East Torontian money system, and is running it using some of the Nidor Goverrment's Monetarist policies (a varient constant money growth rule). It really has no choice, someone has to control East Torontia’s money system, and since Xirnium is the nation occupying it, it has that responsibility.

It hasn’t installed the Xirniumite money system in East Torontia, however.

Good then no problem there.


I’m not sure if it was, but the SDLT was (though, of course, it wouldn’t have been called that back then.
True, even in RL there is some sort of party in the same location I bet.


The actions of the SDLT and the Xirniumite government are wholly different. The High Ecclesiarchy is non-partisan with regards to Torontian and maintains an official disintrest in domestic Torontian politics. People would find that hard to believe.

Desperate times, Desperate measures?
Not so much desperate times, but it would be irresponsible for the Xirniumite government to refrain from doing anything while it waits for a new national government to be formed, especially when serious action is needed in East Torontia now.

Oh, who am I kidding. Times are desperate in East Torontia, or at least they were before the High Ecclesiarchy arrived.

But one would assume that the Companies would try and make sure that an Anti-Foreign government would fail.
It is in their interests to do so, of course (so it's a valid concern), but Xirniumite commerce and corporations laws imported to East Torontia prevent companies exerting undue influence.

Which since the East Torontia Economy was complete garbage, took allot of work.
"Garbage" is an understatement, the economy was beyond basket-case. Absolutely nothing was done to encourage the economy to grow (it was barely kept from contracting), the employment rate was at an all-time low, and overbearing central control over the market stifled the economy. Consider, also, that confidence was extremely low (civil war was always on the horizon, and the economy was ready to implode the moment the Saint Fedski government stopped pouring money into the inefficient factories - which would also have resulted in uncontrolled inflation and crippling taxes) so consumption was at shockingly low levels, which meant that local business died (and, consequently, more people lost jobs, disposable income decreases further - the cycle of economic death continues). But at least now change is being made.

Compare with West Torontia. The government is buying products that are worth less then the base materials that made them, let alone worth less then the total cost to produce them (which includes the materials, labour, overheads, opportunity cost, etc). This extra arbitrary cost that the government needs to pay for an essentially useless product (in order to keep these wasteful factories alive) all needs to be paid for from somewhere. The deadweight loss to society from such a policy is horrendous (fortunately the Amestrian taxpayer foots part of the bill, not only the Torontian, otherwise the situation would be vastly worse).

A more clearer example of market failure I have hardly ever seen. Deadweight loss is acceptable when it goes towards some societal goal (like transfer payments to address income inequality), but when it is used to finance turning a valuable product into a less valuable product you have some serious, systemic problems in the economy.

On an entirely different note, we've not talked about current consumer and producer confidence in Torontia. In the East, the presence of stable Xirniumite economic administration coupled by the presense of strong Xirniumite and Yallakian peacekeeping troops (who are long-term allies and therefore work harmoniously and cooperatively together) ensures confidence is high, which encourages both consumption and investment - and therefore growth.

In West Torontia, we have an unrecognised and isolated government and the presence of an occupying force that frequently does not see eye-to-eye with it and has a tense relationship with its administration. The situation is less stable and confidence in the future is not so great - discouraging consumption and investment, generally slowing the recovery of the economy.

Good, but people will need to be assured that they stay that way.
Whether they stay that way will depend on which party wins the elections. “Vote SDLT for workers’ rights and a fairer Torontia!”

I am afraid that goes against the history of Torontia as written by the origional Torontian player. Pre-Kaufman Torontia had three party's, the Republican Party, the Democratic Party (the two main party's), and the Green Party (and insurgent third party that never managed to gain dominance). Only those parties ever held power. During the Norton Era the Communist Party was in charge. The NPPT thus has never held power. This part needs to be corrected.

And where does this information come from: my research indicates yours doesn’t make sence. Pre-Kaufman also had the National Fascist Party (NFP), the Gay and Lesbian Rights Party (GLRP) and the Conservative Christian Party (CCP).

Regardless I’ll make a modification to that part anyway – something I just though would be even better.

Should also (at least) be a disadvantage for obvious reasons.

No. They escaped being blamed for anything that Tanakis did – therefore no one can blame them – but it also proves how good they are at what they do.

Please provide a link to some of your posts on rebuilding (I do not remember you posting on 'a constant and unwavering rebuilding effort). Also, Yallak bombed Seattle...destroying the very airport that has been rebuilt (and I though Xirnium rebuilt that airport, which is just one landing strip and a control tower).

Amestria – why don’t you ever read all of something. The very first words on my post said: This hasn’t all happened yet but it soon will.
I don’t remember Xirnium posting about rebuilding the airport – I could be wrong – if he has then they’ll make upgrades to it.

Former Capital (Seattle is no longer the Capital and will be replaced by a Federal city), so they are no longer at the center of the action (although Eastern Torontia is still managed from Seattle)

Exactly, Eastern Torontia is still managed from Seattle. And until a fedral city is made Seattle is still torontia’s capital.

The New Order was never High Society, they were populists, ideological thugs, and crooks (the New Order could never be discribed as Aristocratic, thugish is how they would be described). Also, the rich minority of the Tanakis era are gone, they have pretty much been replaced by a new rich minority in both East and West.

They were close enough to it. And its stupid to believe that all the rich minority from Tanakis’ regime are gone. And your point is even more void when you admit there is a new rich minority.

And where does this information come from: my research indicates yours doesn’t make sence. Pre-Kaufman also had the National Fascist Party (NFP), the Gay and Lesbian Rights Party (GLRP) and the Conservative Christian Party (CCP).

That was Torontia when Tanakis agreed to hold elections after the coup in order to stave off foreign invasion (he then one those elections by fraud). The NFP and the CCP were both puppet party's of Tanakis, who later merged them both to reform the New Order. The Gay and Lesbian Rights Party was Norton's old Communist Party reformed and renamed (led by Norton's heterosexual brother, as Tanakis had mandated that homosexuals could not hold office).

Kaufman (the first New Order Leader, Tanakis being the second), took power as an independent and then used violence as an excuse to suspend the Constitution. He then formed the New Order Party to create his own private dictatorship (during which the New Order Party was the only legal party in Torontia).

Kaufman came first, lost power, the Communist Norton replaced him, Tanakis overthrew Norton in a coup and then took power in fraudlent elections.

No. They escaped being blamed for anything that Tanakis did – therefore no one can blame them – but it also proves how good they are at what they do.

Actually, they could not have existed as a seperate party as the New Order Party was the state and all other parties in Tanakis era Torontia were illegal... So if they collaberated with the New Order then they were members of the New Order Party.

And if the leaders of the party collaberated they have not been blamed yet because they have kept out of the lime-light, not because they are that good (and the TPG was recruiting the New Order civil service/military and did not want to alienate anyone unneccessarly who could be of use). The moment the TNCP becomes aware of them they will be demonized for their past activities.

Exactly, Eastern Torontia is still managed from Seattle. And until a fedral city is made Seattle is still torontia’s capital.

Raymond is West Torontia's capital (although the civil service remains centered in Port Angeles).

They were close enough to it. And its stupid to believe that all the rich minority from Tanakis’ regime are gone.

They are all gone, arrested, dead, or fled (the rich minority was the leadership of the New Order Party, when the New Order fled they either lost their lives or lost control of their wealth, much of which was controled through the state).

Was Torontia around back in 1911?

To settle this question I have looked it up. Torontia, in its current form, is 23 years old (counting the year that just passed) and for the first few years had a two party system (Democrat, Republican) with an insurgent third party (the Greens) before Kaufman and the subsequent desent into madness.

Torontia has always been goverened under some form of Washington system (although one could more accurately call the Torontian verson the Monrovian System).

so consumption was at shockingly low levels, which meant that local business died (and, consequently, more people lost jobs, disposable income decreases further - the cycle of economic death continues). But at least now change is being made.

Actually those conditions existed before the fall of the New Order, Torontia had no minimum wage and strict laws against unions/collective bargening... The New Order also viewed the middle class as a threat and implemented policies openly hostle to it. Torontia had few local businesses, in fact the net number has probably increased in Torontia outside of BC and Southeast as the New Order is no longer carrying out its destructive policies.

Compare with West Torontia. The government is buying products that are worth less then the base materials that made them, let alone worth less then the total cost to produce them (which includes the materials, labour, overheads, opportunity cost, etc). This extra arbitrary cost that the government needs to pay for an essentially useless product (in order to keep these wasteful factories alive) all needs to be paid for from somewhere. The deadweight loss to society from such a policy is horrendous

Actually the TPG is mainly ordering military supplies for itself... Lets just say they have a quite a few extra machine guns and other military goods (which could later be sold on the arms market, so they should not be viewed as a loss, just a delayed return).

(fortunately the Amestrian taxpayer foots part of the bill, not only the Torontian, otherwise the situation would be vastly worse).

The Amestrian taxpayer is footing the entire bill...later (the magic of deficit spending, a few hundred billion for two years is nothing in a multi-trillion budget).

A more clearer example of market failure I have hardly ever seen. Deadweight loss is acceptable when it goes towards some societal goal (like transfer payments to address income inequality), but when it is used to finance turning a valuable product into a less valuable product you have some serious, systemic problems in the economy.

The problems were created by the New Order, the TPG had to work with what was there.

On an entirely different note, we've not talked about current consumer and producer confidence in Torontia. In the East, the presence of stable Xirniumite economic administration coupled by the presense of strong Xirniumite and Yallakian peacekeeping troops (who are long-term allies and therefore work harmoniously and cooperatively together) ensures confidence is high, which encourages both consumption and investment - and therefore growth.

You have only been there for a month, Yallak less then a month, and SF just up and left... Your nations pressence would only have had a limited long term effect (mainly by replacing SF's incompetent rule with a more effective goverence) and there might not be confidence that you intend to stay...

Also, I pointed out that the Southeast will remain constantly on edge as just accross the border lies a untamed wilderness of lawless drug lords, war lords, and foreign armies barely in control of the center...

In West Torontia, we have an unrecognised and isolated government and the presence of an occupying force that frequently does not see eye-to-eye with it and has a tense relationship with its administration. The situation is less stable and confidence in the future is not so great - discouraging consumption and investment, generally slowing the recovery of the economy.

The TPG has been around longer so things stabalized a bit sooner then in the East. Also the TNCP has implemented policies to expand the local economy and decentralize things (they are throwing around a lot of patronage, payed for by Amestria), but results are limited by uncertanty.

Lets just agree that East and West are pretty much at equal economic strength (or weakness).

Actually, they could not have existed as a seperate party as the New Order Party was the state and all other parties in Tanakis era Torontia were illegal... So if they collaberated with the New Order then they were members of the New Order Party.

I've changed that - they were a sub group of Tanakis' party - and although they disagreed wth his becoming dictator they stayed quite for their own benefit.

And if the leaders of the party collaberated they have not been blamed yet because they have kept out of the lime-light, not because they are that good (and the TPG was recruiting the New Order civil service/military and did not want to alienate anyone unneccessarly who could be of use). The moment the TNCP becomes aware of them they will be demonized for their past activities.

This isn't a negotiation - im telling you that they were blamed but escaped all charges through skills, deals and fame (the parties leader was well known and loved by the people while tanakis was 'playing as the good politician'). After that fiasco they went low to avoid the foreign elements taking power.

This isn't a negotiation - im telling you that they were blamed but escaped all charges through skills, deals and fame (the parties leader was well known and loved by the people while tanakis was 'playing as the good politician'). After that fiasco they went low to avoid the foreign elements taking power.

And I am telling you that they WILL be blamed, and this leader CANNOT be well known and loved as this is the first we are all hearing of him! Tanakis allowed no persons who could compete in popularity.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if your party was once a part of the New Order (which was what the NFP became) then it has to take the consequences of collaberation (all the other party's are resistence, exiles, or led by former resistence members). Also, if your party stayed out of the spot light it cannot have a well known LEADER, one: Tanakis would have got rid of him, two: one of his enemies would have knocked him off for collaberating, three: Amestria/SF/Xirnium would have arrested him...

And I am telling you that they WILL be blamed, and this leader CANNOT be well known and loved as this is the first we are all hearing of him! Tanakis allowed no persons who could compete in popularity.

I didn't say you couldn't try and blame them again, i just said they'd already been blamed initially and escaped.

if your party stayed out of the spot light it cannot have a well known LEADER

They stayed out of the spot light only during the foreign occupations, not during the new order.

Tanakis would have got rid of him, two: one of his enemies would have knocked him off for collaberating, three: Amestria/SF/Xirnium would have arrested him...

- Tanakis wouldn't knock off one of his (appearantly loyal) party members, who carried out his orders successfully.
- His enemies may have tried, who knows, but he's still alive.
- As i said, he used lots of tricks to escape blame: and the Empire would have been shielding him for their own puposes.

I didn't say you couldn't try and blame them again, i just said they'd already been blamed initially and escaped.

No, they just have not been blamed due to their disaparance from the spot light (you are aware after the New Orders collapse there really was no "debate", it was not like you could go on a talk so and deflect blame).

They stayed out of the spot light only during the foreign occupations, not during the new order.

Then he would have been one of the people hunted down by the ocupations had he been a top New Order leader...

- Tanakis wouldn't knock off one of his (appearantly loyal) party members, who carried out his orders successfully.

If he was popular and well known he would have, Tanakis liked uncharismatic functionaries, not possible competitors.

- As i said, he used lots of tricks to escape blame: and the Empire would have been shielding him for their own puposes.

The Empire did not have a pressence in Seattle until recently.

Raymond is West Torontia's capital (although the civil service remains centered in Port Angeles).

And Vanderhoof is the BC Torontia Capital.


They were close enough to it. And its stupid to believe that all the rich minority from Tanakis’ regime are gone. And your point is even more void when you admit there is a new rich minority.
Well if they were in Seattle... Then they were driven insane by my Chaos Drones, then blown to bits by the Red Tide Artillery Barrage, then Buried in the Rubble of their Palaces by Saint Fedski C4 Charges.

Actually those conditions existed before the fall of the New Order, Torontia had no minimum wage and strict laws against unions/collective bargening... The New Order also viewed the middle class as a threat and implemented policies openly hostile to it. Torontia had few local businesses, in fact the net number has probably increased in Torontia outside of BC and Southeast as the New Order is no longer carrying out its destructive policies.
Certainly those conditions did exist before the Saint Fedski occupation, and have had a long term detrimental effect on the economy.

Actually the TPG is mainly ordering military supplies for itself... Lets just say they have a quite a few extra machine guns and other military goods (which could later be sold on the arms market, so they should not be viewed as a loss, just a delayed return).
When the marginal benefit of acquiring a new machine-gun exceeds the marginal cost of buying it, just to keep the arms factories afloat, deadweight loss occurs (such a thing would never happen in a free market, since it is completely inefficient). And what about those “value subtracted” industries, how are they being kept alive?

The Amestrian taxpayer is footing the entire bill...later (the magic of deficit spending, a few hundred billion for two years is nothing in a multi-trillion budget).
Unless taxes are zero in West Torontia, Torontians are also footing at least part of the bill. This is because Amestrian aid could be used for far more useful endeavours then perpetuating dead industries.

The problems were created by the New Order, the TPG had to work with what was there.
Of course, but the TPG has not done much to correct its systemic problems (unlike what Xirnium has already begun doing in the East).

Lets just agree that East and West are pretty much at equal economic strength (or weakness).
Actually, due to the sheer incompetence of Saint Fedski administration I would venture that the West Torontian economy is probably, at least at present, in a better shape then the East Torontian economy. Even for the High Ecclesiarchy there is only so much that can be done in one month.

That said, in my opinion the Xirniumite reforms are vastly more beneficial and far-reaching then what has happened in the West (where failed industries are being perpetuated) and East Torontia's economy will be surging towards strength. To be honest, it really does not seem that the TPG has a plan for reviving the economy that goes beyond superficial treatment of the symptoms of an imploded market.

In my opinion Xirniumite policies will mean that both economic growth and the rate of increase of living standards will be higher in the East. Whereas the systemic problems which are being perpetuated in the West will mean that the economy slips back into recession the moment that Amestrian aid is withdrawn, the visionary policies of the High Ecclesiarchy will ensure that, when its job is complete, the East Torontian economy will be vibrant and working on its own without foriegn help.

This will be my last post of pointless argument. I have uni work to do and will wait and see what the others think.

Use your common sense:

No, they just have not been blamed due to their disaparance from the spot light (you are aware after the New Orders collapse there really was no "debate", it was not like you could go on a talk so and deflect blame).

People get blamed for things all the time and escape unpunished and proven not guilty (even if they had done it).

Then he would have been one of the people hunted down by the ocupations had he been a top New Order leader...

Same as above - eg. Not all of the Nazi involved in killing the jews were executed or jailed. Several were released.

If he was popular and well known he would have, Tanakis liked uncharismatic functionaries, not possible competitors.

Again, common sense. He was a popular member of Tanakis' pre-dictator party. Tanakis declares himself ruler of Torontia so he sits back and shows himself to still be completely loyal and unquestioning. Still in the spot light but not taking or threatening Tanakis' power or fame in any way.

The Empire did not have a pressence in Seattle until recently.

The most simplest of common sense was needed here: Just because they were based in Seattle and come back to begin there again doesn't mean they stayed there while they were in hiding. They could have been in any big city to backwater town.

This isn't a negotiation - im telling you that they were blamed but escaped all charges through skills, deals and fame (the parties leader was well known and loved by the people while tanakis was 'playing as the good politician'). After that fiasco they went low to avoid the foreign elements taking power.
Unless you change it your The NPPT may not live to see the elections. No Native Torontian who's not a Foreign nation's Puppet would want a possible New Order Collaborator in any positions of power.

You've got a TG to Xirnium.

Unless taxes are zero in West Torontia, Torontians are also footing at least part of the bill. This is because Amestrian aid could be used for far more useful endeavours then perpetuating dead industries.

Amestria is paying for Torontia's entire public sector (the government, the military, the police, the new water fountain being put up in one of Port Angeles parks by the TPG). The TPG is not collecting taxes from the Torontian populace (although they are capable of doing so) because that would not have positive effects and would provoke resentment.

To be honest, it really does not seem that the TPG has a plan for reviving the economy that goes beyond superficial treatment of the symptoms of an imploded market.

The TPG had no plan for Torontia's economy byound stablization (it is merely the Provisional Government after all, its main priority has always been stablization). Now the TNCP is focusing on reenforcing its power base.

In my opinion Xirniumite policies will mean that both economic growth and the rate of increase of living standards will be higher in the East. Whereas the systemic problems which are being perpetuated in the West will mean that the economy slips back into recession the moment that Amestrian aid is withdrawn, the visionary policies of the High Ecclesiarchy will ensure that, when its job is complete, the East Torontian economy will be vibrant and working on its own without foriegn help.

A few months will not make that great of a difference.

Unless you change it your The NPPT may not live to see the elections. No Native Torontian who's not a Foreign nation's Puppet would want a possible New Order Collaborator in any positions of power.

Really? Are you sure? Do you hold that argument?

You're really going to eat those words in a few weeks when I pull my trump card.

Really? Are you sure? Do you hold that argument?

You're really going to eat those words in a few weeks when I pull my trump card.
You have a Trump card? Well what do you know.
...
...
...
I have one too.
(This is going to be good)

People would find that hard to believe.
If the High Ecclesiarchy isn’t non-partisan then why is it refraining from financing any political parties?

Amestria - just to clarify something about your argument for myself - are you saying that just about anyone who is blamed with past collaboration with the New Order will be looked down upon by the Torontian citizens?

Amestria - just to clarify something about your argument for myself - are you saying that just about anyone who is blamed with past collaboration with the New Order will be looked down upon by the Torontian citizens?

No, anyone who collaborated with the New Order and is openly seeking political power will be looked down upon and distrusted (seen as lacking legitamacy and symbolizing the terrable events of the past) by the Torontian populace.

****Important OOC****

Ok, I apologize in advance for this but I wasn't able to let you know any sooner. I have been working to finish off all my uni work over the last week – so sorry to McKagan for not getting a reply up.

The other thing - and the reason I can only tell you now is because the plans were only finalized tonight – is that I will be going away tomorrow (Thursday afternoon) on a long and way overdue holiday and won’t be back for 5 days (sometime on Tuesday).

I know this will slow things up so I will be perfectly happy to let Xirnium RP my characters at the convention until I get back (so long as he doesn’t mind doing it that is).

It is possible that I will get online before I go tomorrow but no promises: assume this will be my last contact until Tuesday.

Again sorry for any inconveniences.

****Important OOC****

Hello people. I'm currently typing at a CPU terminal at Male, the capitol of the Maldives. I'm on the way back to finally finish off the letter, hurray Xirnium! :) So, what did I miss?

What other pressure groups are there politically other then the parties?

The Xirniumite and McKagan occupational authorities are obvious political factions that exert influence in Torontia. The New Order loyalists were once significant, but have since been near completely decimated – I think they are a spent force.

Torontia once had a Communist regime, so I suppose their may be several such groups. There might also be anarchists.

Foreign companies in Torontia at the moment are mainly Xirniumite (in the East) and McKagan (in the West).

Torontia once had a Communist regime

Wouldn't most of them want to affiliate themselves with the TSU?

There might also be anarchists.

The TLP would probably try to get that group, if it exists at all outside the ranks of teenagers.

Foreign companies in Torontia at the moment are mainly Xirniumite (in the East) and McKagan (in the West).

Most companies in West Torontia are state funded or state supported, and the Amestrian Government is paying for the entire Torontian Provisional Government (West Torontian Government).

Also, one can't really throw money into West Torontia given that the Torontian Dollar issued by the TPG is the only acceptable public currancy (the Amestrian Gold Hobbes is also used), and all conversions must be approved by the Ministry of Finance (which could lead to some questions). So actually Mckagan companies have very little pressence in West Torontia, dependent upon the TPG's willingness to open doors for them.

Red Tide: Genocide at Spokane and bombing of Vancouver with WMD in an attempt to carve Torontia into their own little play ground, I think it is fair to point out they are hated by a fair number in East and West Torontia (particularly those they maimed or who lost family) and by all Torontian nationalists.

Those were the good old days ^_^. Anyways, I am thinking about getting reinvolved with the RP. Nothing to dramatic... just a new political party secretly backed by the Red Tide Goverment in another attempt to make Torontia a puppet goverment. After that fails, they'll go all rebel like in Eastern Torontia... and fail there too.

Torontian National-Capitilist Party(TNCP)

Advantages:

Strong pro-capitilist and secular stance is a bonus to buisness men and the seperation-of-church-and-state crowd.

Seems to have sufficient finances(although from where is questionable(see disadvantages))

Leader is a Seattle police officer, one who worked in the badparts of town. A bonus for the tough-on-crime crowd.

Disadvantages:

Seems to have appeared out of nowhere.

Where they have gotten their financial support is relatively unknown and leads to rampant speculation and, in turn, bad rumors.

Represents an extremely small minority as of now.

Ideological stance is eerily similar to the Corporate Dictatorship of Red Tide. A minus with virtually all Torontians.

Leaders history in the timeframe inbetween the Red Tidean shelling of Seattle and the leaving of Red Tidean forces is extremely sketchy.

Your logo is exactly the same as the Torontian National Congress Party, and I don't think a Party could just appear out of nowhere, what with all the intelligence agents crawling around (someone would find out where all these funds are coming from). There is also the matter of simple time, as stated before there would really not be enough time for a new party to come out of the blue and compete in elections at this stage (unless you accept they are doomed to get peanuts).

They ARE doomed to get peanuts... thats the whole point!

Also, one can't really throw money into West Torontia given that the Torontian Dollar issued by the TPG is the only acceptable public currancy (the Amestrian Gold Hobbes is also used), and all conversions must be approved by the Ministry of Finance (which could lead to some questions). So actually Mckagan companies have very little pressence in West Torontia, dependent upon the TPG's willingness to open doors for them.

There's another currency. A very raw currency.

Gold.

McKagan can and WILL use it's vast resources to use actual gold ON THE STREETS. Given that the Torontian Dollar is MUCH less powerful than the Makfia, it isn't really an issue.

I do agree that McKagan companies wouldn't be there, for the most part. Maybe small Mom & Pops style outfits here and there, or helping already established places.

I do plan on trying to get Xeccon Industrial Corporation in though.

So you are going to start handing out gold :rolleyes:

Thats not currency btw, thats barter.

Wouldn't most of them want to affiliate themselves with the TSU? What's left of them.

The TSU is made up of basicly what's left of the Socialist\Communist groups in Torontia. Tanakis killed off the majority of both (As well as anyone else who leaned to the left) when he took power. The remaining fled into exile.
The Communists were more noticable since they were supporting the previous Government, therefore more communists died than Socialists. The surviving Communists had no choice but to join the Socialists in order to remain united.

The Communist part of the TSU makes up the more Radical part, the biased Newspaper that Brovan showed at the meeting is published by a group of Communist TSU members in Vancouver.

Gold coinage, of course, will always be an acceptable currency anywhere, as would silver. Actually, McKagan’s is a very clever idea.

Additionally, I’m sure that Torontians would accept other stable world currencies, such as the US Dollar, the Euro, the Xirniumite ąŷthír (currency in official circulation in East Torontia).

In fact, all three of these are probably much more reliable currencies than the West Torontian Dollar.

In fact, all three of these are probably much more reliable currencies than the West Torontian Dollar.

Not allowed though and all conversions must be government approved.

Not allowed though and all conversions must be government approved.
That is an obstacle, of course, but it shouldn't prevent the currency from being used on the blackmarket.

That is an obstacle, of course, but it shouldn't prevent the currency from being used on the blackmarket.

I don't see why a blackmarket would exist when the West Torontian currency is being backed by the Amestrian Government...which means it has quite a deal of capital behind it.

Xirnium: TG

I don't see why a blackmarket would exist when the West Torontian currency is being backed by the Amestrian Government...which means it has quite a deal of capital behind it.
That answer seems fairly obvious to me, the TPG government and thus their currency is unrecognised by any nation anywhere in the world - save by Amestria. It is diplomatically isolated, the subject of severe trade sanctions.

US dollars, Euros, Xirniumite ąŷthíri, gold and silver currency... all of these can be exchanged for goods and services anywhere in the world. The West Torontian dollar is worthless outside of the TPG controlled zones (except in Amestria). It can't even buy products in the Eastern half of Torontia.

Also, replied. :)

The Black Hand accepts Silver\Gold Ore from the TSU, (well if I ever get around to explaining how they'll be paying that is, why ore? I don't really know myself)

Aside from Xirnium and McKagan,(Red Tide but they don't count) no one else seems to consider the TPG to be an illegitmate government, (Yallak can't considering they were defending it during the TPLA insurgancy) just an intermn government. So since whatever money that the TPG has will become part of the true Government, their money WOULD be accepted.

TLA accepts the TPG as an intermn government so their money is used but automaticly converted to the worth of the Amestrian currency because it was funded by Amestria.

well if I ever get around to explaining how they'll be paying that is, why ore? I don't really know myself
Unrefined ore seems like a bizarre currency to trade in, you might as well pay them with crude oil. For one thing, gold ore's value would be difficult to determine. For another, it isn't exactly the most liquid of commodities (mainly only people with ore processing facilities would likely accept it).

Yallak can't considering they were defending it during the TPLA insurgency
Regardless, Yallak has never recognised the TPG as a legitimate government, and does not deal with it as a legitimate government. Indeed, I recall a specific point where they pointedly refused to recognise it as legitimate.

And I should point out that Amestria itself, is a fairly isolated nation too – or at least it was until quite recently. For instance, its companies were completely excluded from involvement in the Space Union economic affair. Nations like Southeast Asia and Sarzonia have given it the cold shoulder in the past.

So since whatever money that the TPG has will become part of the true Government, their money WOULD be accepted.
At some point in the future, sure.

It is diplomatically isolated, the subject of severe trade sanctions.

Xirnium does not severe trade sanctions make.

US dollars

Do not exist, no US.

Euros

Also do not exist.

Xirniumite ąŷthíri

Very little trade I assume is done with Xirnium in the West.

all of these can be exchanged for goods and services anywhere in the world. The West Torontian dollar is worthless outside of the TPG controlled zones (except in Amestria). It can't even buy products in the Eastern half of Torontia.

It merely has to be converted, no cause for a loss of confidence, and as TLA pointed out, it would be considered good in other country's that would not care about the conflict and thus trade with them. Meanwhile, it is the only legal currancy in West Torontia, and I would point out that gold would only be valuable if the government were willing to exchange it for something...which would lead to questions ("Where did you get this gold?!"), otherwise people would have to sell the gold for Torontian dollars as it would be illegal to use as an alternative currancy (probably sell them at pawn shops and jewelry stores), which would defeat the purpose of handing out gold in the first place.

Do not exist, no US.
Of course they exist, we just can't interact with them. Everything exists in the NS multiverse.

At some point in the future, sure.

So the money is therefore good, backed by a major power, the only accepted legal tender, and will be accepted by the new National Government once it is established... I therefore fail to see any reason for a black market.

Of course they exist, we just can't interact with them. Everything exists in the NS multiverse.

USD is Universial Standard Dollars... I don't consider the US as existing, or at least the RL US in the NS multiverse.

USD is Universial Standard Dollars... I don't consider the US as existing, or at least the RL US in the NS multiverse.
Did Amestria develop in a world without real life nations? That is, of course, possible (anything is hypothetically possible in the NS multiverse). That doesn't mean that the real life US does not exist for other nations, or in the greater NS multiverse.

I therefore fail to see any reason for a black market.
The reason is a foreign government offering large quantities of gold bullion...

The reason is a foreign government offering large quantities of gold bullion...

Which would be worthless given many factors, such as the TPG just taking it and handing out Torontian dollars instead.

BTW: TG

It merely has to be converted
At the TPG Finance Ministry... where unwelcome questions are asked and the government can refuse to exchange the currency based merely on politically-motivated reasons (just like it censors media for politically-motivated reasons).

such as the TPG just taking it and handing out Torontian dollars instead.
Hence the "black" market. Really, I think we are going around in circles... :)

I don't see why a blackmarket would exist when the West Torontian currency is being backed by the Amestrian Government...which means it has quite a deal of capital behind it.


Never heard of the adventures of the pre-Hussein Iraqi Dinar?

Or of the Kerenki in post-revolution Russia?

Do not exist, no US.

Ahem.



Euros

Also do not exist.

Actually are used by several major nations. Knootoss comes to mind immediately.

What about the ubiquitous Menelmacari Credit?

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Menelmacari_Credit

Allanea of course uses it as a currency for calculation and other such purposes.

So you are going to start handing out gold :rolleyes:

Thats not currency btw, thats barter.

How is gold any more 'barter' then any other 'currency'?

A currency is what is commonly accepted as such.

Gold is used as a currency to this very day, it's not trackable, and it's accepted everywhere in the MT/PMT universe (and some FT places too) in Nationstates.

To quote Wikipedia:

A currency is a unit of exchange, facilitating the transfer of goods and services. It is a form of money, where money is defined as a medium of exchange (rather than e.g. a store of value).

As such, gold, as well as (in certain circumstances) tobacco, coffee, and sheep all qualify.

Gold is used as a currency to this very day, it's not trackable, and it's accepted everywhere in the MT/PMT universe (and some FT places too) in Nationstates.
In addition, it is worth noting that many modern countries also mint gold bullion coins in addition to their regular currency, for use by those who want a hedge against currency inflation. For example the British Britannia, the Chinese Panda, the Canadian Maple Leaf, the Xirniumite Aeon, etc.

I can't imagine that there would be many people anywhere unwilling to accept gold currency.

How is gold any more 'barter' then any other 'currency'?

A currency is what is commonly accepted as such.

Gold is used as a currency to this very day, it's not trackable, and it's accepted everywhere in the MT/PMT universe (and some FT places too) in Nationstates.

The Amestrian Government has a “Marxist” (as your characters once termed it) monopoly on currency, as does the West Torontian Government (although the Amestrian Government policies are far more relaxed).

Your government may maintain a monopoly on currency all it wants - hell, most RL governments at least claim to do so.

But in practice, if common people in the street will in fact accept gold, silver, whatever as currency, then it is a currency. A currency is whatever is accepted as such.

Unrefined ore seems like a bizarre currency to trade in, you might as well pay them with crude oil. For one thing, gold ore's value would be difficult to determine. For another, it isn't exactly the most liquid of commodities (mainly only people with ore processing facilities would likely accept it)

Wait I have the reason for it now, anyone who plays the CNC games knows that the 'money' comes from Tiberium, well the reason why it is worth so much is that metals (Gold Silver, Lead, Zinc,etc.) are absorbed underground and brought up in the Tiberium crystals, problem is... Tiberium is too much of a health risk at where they're hiding. So they're using the Refineries to process regular metalic ore. But they need the ore to do that. Crazy?
It's a militarist cult, logic has no place there.
---

Parts of North Torontia still trade in Fur.

There is no need to barter...sigh.

Anyway, Allanea, you jumped the gun, your entrance has not as yet been formerly approved AND you posted in the wrong thread.

Allanea, why are you posting?

There is no need to barter...sigh.

Anyway, Allanea, you jumped the gun, your entrance has not as yet been formerly approved AND you posted in the wrong thread.

...umm sorry. I was on the impression Xirnium, Kahanistan, you, and McKagan said yes to this kind of limited involvement.

Your Idaho post is fine, nothing wrong with that, but the one on the Battle for Torontian thread is a different matter and needs to go (first of all Idaho and Torontia are somewhat seperate RPs and also you posted on the wrong thread anyway, the election thread has yet to be created).

BTW: In your Idaho post you forgot to meantion Mckagan...I'm surprised given what happened with Cute Bunny Burger your characters choose to fixate only upon Xirnium...

Your Idaho post is fine, nothing wrong with that, but the one on the Battle for Torontian thread is a different matter and needs to go (first of all Idaho and Torontia are somewhat seperate RPs and also you posted on the wrong thread anyway, the election thread has yet to be created).

Doesn't Idaho border Torontia?

also you posted on the wrong thread anyway, the election thread has yet to be created).

Where should/can I repost it?

Doesn't Idaho border Torontia?

Yes, but the two RPs are somewhat seperate, Idaho is a spin off of Torontia (technically the events happening in Idaho happen before the elections take place as they start roughly a few days after the main Convention day).

Where should/can I repost it?

Save the post on the Battle for Torontia thread to Word for the moment.

Saved, removed.

Okay, let's just get a few things straight.

1) All currency is barter. The difference between paper money and actual gold is that gold slabs cut out the middleman. Cash has to have something backing it up - and people on the street have no guarentee what's backing their currency up will be there the next day. With Gold they don't NEED to worry about what their government does.

2) Gold has a longer history than this "Torontian Dollar," along with the Amestrian currency. As long as there has been history - there has been gold.

3 ) The price of gold doesn't change as much as currency. It's ALWAYS valuable. That's why governments in RL back their economies with it. This means that the average Torontian WILL recognize it as a sign of wealth.

4) McKagan won't be trading at a "fair" price - it'll be ripping McKagan off. McKagan has the financial resources to do things like that. McKagan will be trading this stuff at a BARGAIN in a large scale assault to gather as much currency as it needs.

5) Amestria is backing the Torontian Dollar?

I guess the Amestrian currency is far less valuable now than it would be should it be operating independently.

6) The TPG has to approve all conversions? Bullshit. The average person on the street will trade a few Torontian Dollars for a superior currency in a heartbeat. They won't run to the nearest police department to ask if it's okay.

And I should point out that Amestria itself, is a fairly isolated nation too – or at least it was until quite recently. For instance, its companies were completely excluded from involvement in the Space Union economic affair. Nations like Southeast Asia and Sarzonia have given it the cold shoulder in the past.
Except we did it in a more subtle manner and behind the scenes. With nations we have a passive dislike for, we tend not to be frank, we tend to be obtuse with them.

Not like the Sarzo cabinet, which has a hawkish streak in it's left-leaning politics, that tends to be blunt to the point.
Everything exists in the NS multiverse.
In speaking of the NSEarth theory, I role-play from my POV, NSEarth is a combination of both larger than RL Earth and a multi-verse (it leans more to the larger-than-RL Earth theory, however).

Just some information for you all to know.

And Kahanistan, TG response please.

In speaking of the NSEarth theory, I role-play from my POV, NSEarth is a combination of both larger than RL Earth and a multi-verse (it leans more to the larger-than-RL Earth theory, however).
I believe that Jovian-sized Earth theory has been discredited as much geocentrist thought. A larger earth would make all kind of weird changes to life, such as the force of gravity, rotational speed, curvature of the Earth, and so on.

I prefer to think instead of the NS universe as a series of fractured planes of reality, in constant, random motion - in other words, multiverse theory. Countries pop into and out of existence, alternate realities exist (for instant, yours where the Southeast Asian states are unified under one government), and fantastical occurrences are common place.

I believe that Jovian-sized Earth theory has been discredited as much geocentrist thought.
[OOC: In your opinion perhaps, but there are just as many others that disagree with you that agree with your perspective, Xirnium. But what one thing for sure is, there will never, ever be a unified perspective on NSEarth and a full map of NSEarth because of the fact that NationStates is a free-form role-play. Now, let's get back onto topic. Guess which party we'd support ICly, if we had to contribute money?]

Guess which party we'd support ICly, if we had to contribute money?
The People's Socialist Workers' Coalition of Xirnium?

[OOC: I was refering to the Torontian elections. We'd support the Liberal Party of Torontia or the Social Democratic Party of Torontia, not the Torontian Socialist Union (because they're too radical in my IC POV, and are too consumed by ideology and have a lack of pragmatism) nor the Torontian National Congress Party (because it still looks too much like a puppet of Amestria, and financing it would be a bad idea in our IC POV).]

Yeah I made the TSU basicly as radical as I thought considering I believed only radicals would have survived the Tanakis era. Now Joseph Larange
(See the Diplomacy in the North thread) is a moderate who had escaped Torontia therefore he is much more logical than Brovan. But he perfers to be the guy behind the scenes hence why he didn't go to the meeting.

I based Brovan more off of Chavez. (Because he's the only radical Socialist that everyone knows about)

While Larange is a little more towards myself.

As for Johan, he's the jack of all trades in the TSU, and a plot device,
I like to use him.

Speaking of that I'd like to finish that sometime.

Oh and to make it clear how the BH and the Lone Alliance don't agree on things at times.

The Lone Alliance supports the TLP way more than the TSU.

Whoa, someone other than McKagan supports the TLP?

That's a shock.

Whoa, someone other than McKagan supports the TLP?

That's a shock.

They kind of have too... Part of policy, you support your allies, even if you think they're making a mistake.

Oh and can you respond on the Diplomicy thread? Even if it's just a sentence or something, I need to get it out of the way.

Sorry for my delay, everyone. I've been really sort of busy and NationStates was starting to bore me.

TLA, I'll reply to the diplomacy thread as soon as I get time.