NationStates Jolt Archive

Democratic Colonies Navy
Surface Vessel Engineering Bureau

Feasibility Study: Tempora Heroica Class Armoured Aircraft Carrier with Internalized Flight Deck
Distributed for Purposes of International Input
Edited for Removal of Sensitive Information


Reason for Feasibility Study
While the aircraft carrier has long functioned as the backbone of DC Naval force projection, it has always been abundantly clear that traditional carrier designs are more easily damaged to the point of combat ineffectiveness then other types of surface vessels.

The exposed flight deck of most modern carriers presents a large target, with a number of vulnerable components relatively unarmoured and easily disabled or destroyed by hostile munitions. Even without the aid of precision munitions, the exposed flight deck of the modern carrier can easily be rendered unusable by the formation of breaches and craters caused by hostile munitions.


Proposed Design for Feasibility Study
Conceptual Basics
The DC Navy Surface Vessel Engineering Bureau developed over the course of the last three years the preliminary design of the Tempora Heroica Class Armoured Aircraft Carrier.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NS%20Colonial%20Products/4c8555d0.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NS%20Colonial%20Products/afd9dfd7.jpg)

Based on the Pax Magellanic Class Aircraft Carrier (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8853333&postcount=1) that is currently in service, the Tempora Heroica Class features many imporved features, including more developed, international class diplomatic facilities. As on the Pax Magellanic Class, these diplomatic facilities may be used for negotiations, conferences, and other diplomatic affairs.

The flight deck of the Tempora Heroica has been placed well within the superstructure of the vessel, and thus is well protected from aerial or guided bombardment.

Aircraft Launching and Landing from Internalized flight Deck
Aircraft launch and landing ports have been installed fore and aft, respectively, with each port streching the entire width of the vessel. The ports have a height of eight metres, which is sufficent for most medium/heavy fighters under shipboard landing control, but is insufficent for most cargo aircraft and airbourne RADAR platforms.

Due to small port opening of eight metres for launch and landing ports, control of both aircraft takeoff and landing has been removed from aircraft pilots, and reassigned to an advanced Nexus III Computer Core, which is superior to the Orion Six Point-Defense Mainframe (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8853364&postcount=2) offered on the Pax Magellanic Export Model. The Nexus II Computer Core, running the latest in autonomic software, is capable of safely piloting an aircraft of six metres or less in height through the landing port with precision that cannot be matched by a human pilot.

Nexus III Computer Core with
APRiL IACC (Autonomic Point-Defense Reaction, Linguistic Interface, Aircraft Coordination and Control) Software
The Nexus III Computer Core controlling aircraft takeoff and landing also has been tasked with the control of the vessel's point-defense network of CIWS and SAM assets. The Nexus III with APRiL IACC software has also largely replaced the traditional Combat Information Centre (CIC), since its advanced linguistic interpretation and generation capabilities, in combination with its battle area management abilities, allow it to coordinate and direct over a thousand aircraft as directed by its shipboard human operators.

Potential Concerns
While the Surface Vessel Engineering Bureau believes that the Nexus III computer Core with APRiL IACC software is capable of sustaining high performance operations in deployed conditions, concern remains over the potential vulnerability presented by the allocation of so many responsibilities onto a single, relatively sensitive piece of equipment. The Nexus III remains paticularly vulnerable to [DELETED], due to its [DELETED[. As well, the software engineers report that in [DELETED] - this is most troubling. Should the Nexus III Computer Core be somehow disabled, then the vessel would be rendered without effective point defense coordination, the ability to land or launch aircraft safely, and the ability to effectively control and direct airbourne aircraft. Even more troubling, if control of the Nexus III was to be subverted [DELETED].

OOC: I was hoping to get some help with this from the shipbuilders in II. I don't have much experience with ship designing, and so I had a few questions that I hope someone can help with:

- Will this crazy thing work?
- Is the big Achille's Heel on the design too obvious, or just enough to be interesting?
- How thick should the armour be? I'm thinking of a length of 635 metres, a flightdeck width of 150 metres, and Super-Dreadnaught class armour. Would that work?
- What should I call this type of vessel? "Armoured Aircraft Carrier with Internalized Flight Deck" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue

- How much should these vessels be sold for?

Thank you in advance for any help. You know, assuming I get any. :)

(OOC: im nto that good at naval design, but im willing to help, and I guess help form a noob is better than no help at all)

To:Democratic Colonies
From: Franberry

- Will this crazy thing work?
I think so, the idea you have does seem really interesting.


- Is the big Achille's Heel on the design too obvious, or just enough to be interesting?
I think that teh Nexus III should take care of the landing, but there should be human intervention in there too. Also, try making the landing area just a bit larger.


- How thick should the armour be? I'm thinking of a length of 635 metres, a flightdeck width of 150 metres, and Super-Dreadnaught class armour. Would that work?
The size of the ship would prevent it from being used in almost all drydocks (in RL anayways). As for the armor, im not quite sure.


- What should I call this type of vessel? "Armoured Aircraft Carrier with Internalized Flight Deck" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue
"Super Aircraft Carrier"
"Armored Aircraft Carrier"
"Armored Deck Aircraft Carrrier"
"Covered Deck Aircraft Carrier"

Will these carriers be produced for export? Franberry would be very interesting in purchasing anythign from one unit, to building rights.

It will work and has been done before on NS but with smaller ships and VTOL a/c.

Almost all drydocks in NS are humongus beyond reason.

Armored Aircraft Carrier sounds good to me

Yes, this should work. The only possible problem I can think of is if the conditions are horrible enough or the aircraft is damaged the Nexus system very well may not function properly, causing the aircraft to crash.

OOC: Register up at the NS Draftroom (http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom), Democratic Colonies. You'll find many technicians there that are willing to help.

Well, if memory seves me, the Japanese, british, and at some point the Americans experimented with a 'through deck' carrier. Having an auxillary take off deck under the primary deck.

This had 3 dissadvantages:
1> you could not safely land on the lower deck, due to turbulence (no wind advantage on landing, since wind is restricted by the superstructure)
2> You could not take off from both decks at the same time.
3> The wind would actually push the planes down instead of up during takeoff. (it makes no sense but that is how it was)

Most of the problems that countries attempted to solve with auxillary decks where solved with angled flight decks with deck armour plating.
(ability to take off and land at same time, and survivability).

8 meters seems a bit of a tight fit, but then again, navy planes don't flare out on landing (I hope you have some safegaurd in case they miss the arrester wires), but you are now risking your planes chopping their landing gear off.

Or else your planes will start doing this :fluffle:

Thanks for everyone for thier input. I appriciate it. :)


- Will this crazy thing work?
I think so, the idea you have does seem really interesting.


Thank you. Not an original idea, as The Phoenix Milita and Hurtful Thoughts mentioned, but I've never personally seen this type of thing on NS, and was wondering if there was a big reason behind that.


- Is the big Achille's Heel on the design too obvious, or just enough to be interesting?
I think that teh Nexus III should take care of the landing, but there should be human intervention in there too. Also, try making the landing area just a bit larger.


I want to keep humans essentially out of the loop on landings. This way, the Tempora Heroicas have a big, serious weakness to them in the form of the giant computer core.

For the same reason, I'd like to keep the landing port kind of cramped. Having eight metres of clearence for a six metre tall fighter makes it insanely unsafe for a human to try to land, I think.

Thing is, in NS II, even though DC is pretty big population wise, it's a second rate power at best. Most role players don't even know me, and I'm not a paticularly skilled writer. Chances are, if I have to RP a naval battle with someone with near equal forces, I'm going to lose because I'm not very good with tactics. Having my new carrier come out with some pretty big design flaws seems to fit my nation's image as a backbencher better, gives me the opportunity to write about things going wrong, and gives a good IC reason for why I lost.

I'm not saying that the Tempora Heroica was designed to be a loser, but I just want to make it clear that it is a flawed design, and that things will not go perfectly with it.

Most of the design flaws should be fixable by your nation after you purchase the carriers, if you want them improved, so there's no need to worry about any of this if you decide to purchase any. The design flaws are for DC's RPing flavour. You don't have to deal with them if you don't want to.


- What should I call this type of vessel? "Armoured Aircraft Carrier with Internalized Flight Deck" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue
"Super Aircraft Carrier"
"Armored Aircraft Carrier"
"Armored Deck Aircraft Carrrier"
"Covered Deck Aircraft Carrier"


Thank you for the suggestions.


Will these carriers be produced for export? Franberry would be very interesting in purchasing anythign from one unit, to building rights.

They'll be for sale. Right now, I'm thinking that the sticker price will be about 30 billion for one with a APRiL IACC equipeed Nexus III, 28 billion for one without Nexus III, with negotiable discounts on larger purchases. I'll sell building rights as well, although I'm not sure for how much. I'll add that to the questions in post #2. Thank you you asking.


It will work and has been done before on NS but with smaller ships and VTOL a/c.

I didn't know that. Would you happen to know how those designs turned out?


Armored Aircraft Carrier sounds good to me


Yes, I'm leaning towards that at the moment. Not as precise as I'd like, but nothing else comes to mind.


The only possible problem I can think of is if the conditions are horrible enough or the aircraft is damaged the Nexus system very well may not function properly, causing the aircraft to crash.


I'm hoping that the Nexus III will be able to compensate for bad weather, atleast most of the time. As with real life carrier operations, however, one would have to expect a crash every once in a while when the weather gets to be extremely bad.

The fact that landings will be extremely unsafe without the Nexus III was deliberately incorporated into the design to give it a weakness.


OOC: Register up at the NS Draftroom, Democratic Colonies. You'll find many technicians there that are willing to help.


Thank you, Southeastasia. It looks like all of the major NS weapons exporters are there. Hopefully, they'll help me out.


1> you could not safely land on the lower deck, due to turbulence (no wind advantage on landing, since wind is restricted by the superstructure)


Do you think this will be an issue on the Tempora Heroica? I'm hoping that the Nexus III will be able to fly through most close in turbulence.


3> The wind would actually push the planes down instead of up during takeoff. (it makes no sense but that is how it was)


That's alright. I have an overhang over the top of the takeoff port anyways, so if a fighter was to pull up upon launch, it'd hit that and explode.

That was supposed to be a deliberate design flaw that would cause some casualties when/if pilots are forced to make manual takeoffs after the Nexus III is knocked out, but if the planes are pushed down, then I guess it doesn't matter.


Most of the problems that countries attempted to solve with auxillary decks where solved with angled flight decks with deck armour plating.
(ability to take off and land at same time, and survivability).


I realize that there are probably more efficent solutions then the creation of an internalized flight deck, but I just have a thing for inefficent, but still basically workable designs. Gives things a nice flavour, I think.


8 meters seems a bit of a tight fit, but then again, navy planes don't flare out on landing (I hope you have some safegaurd in case they miss the arrester wires), but you are now risking your planes chopping their landing gear off.

Or else your planes will start doing this


Ah, yes. I hadn't really thought about that. I want to keep the small landing port as a rather obvious design flaw because it fits my nation's second-rate-at-best character better though. It makes losing the computer core alot less punishing if it's reasonablely possible to land without it, so I'd like to keep it small and unsafe if the pilot is coming in manually.

I'm not really sure what could be installed as a safety measure if a plane misses the wires though. I guess a lane could be kept clear for touch-and-goes, like they are on real life Nimitizes. A plane should be able to make it all the way through at high speeds if nothing is in the way.

You know, with a big flat armoured superstructure, and the realitive armor of a dreadnaught, you could try making use of that deck space with rockets. (since it would lack the depth necessary for large guns or fancy launchers)

2ndly, if you're going to put one deck under a cover, why not turn all the hangar levels into flight decks (would save space from aircraft elevators, this would be offset by the complexity of the takeoff and landing hardware needed [steam turbines would need alot of power to pump 12 catapults near simultaniously, but think of the tactical advantage of being able to get a whole fighter wing airborne in seconds])

Although I would recomend an angled internal deck (this would mean another hole) and some space on the above deck for a few helicopters, if you seriously are going to develop this.

I would lean towards classifying it a "Through Deck" Aircraft Carrier, especially if you start putting things above the flight deck. 'Covered deck' if you leave the superstucture baren.

"Super Aircraft Carrier"
"Armored Aircraft Carrier"
"Armored Deck Aircraft Carrrier"

are already taken, and mean something entirely different than what you would be trying to convey to the reader.

LCV (Large/super Aircraft Carrier)
Armored carrier, (a phrase used by the british for their enclosed and armored hangars for their carriers
Armored deck, refers to almost all modern CVs.

(wouldn't want someone to try strafing your protected planes thinking they weren't; I once mistook a coast guard cutter for a PT boat, then I almost tried boarding it with a group of 30 waterlogged marines thinking it only had 10 militiamen on board, turned out there where 20 combat ready marines, and 40 plus sailors instead; needless to say, all my men failed in their attempt)

If it works I'll buy some.

You might have problems with armouring such a large void space in terms of structural strength, you might find that even realatively light damage to the upper structure will cause serious problems to the udnerlying support structures, an issue that was a major problem for the ww2 british armoured deck designs.

You are going to get all sorts of really really horrible airflow problems through the deck but i suppose a series of adjustable baffles and vanes could be used to control such issues. You are still likely going to need somn sort of open deck on the top of the structure to allow the operation of helos which would allow these vessels to deploy thier own AEW&C platforms (think some sort of big VTOL like a quad tilt rotor or similar).

OOC: I was hoping to get some help with this from the shipbuilders in II. I don't have much experience with ship designing, and so I had a few questions that I hope someone can help with:

- Will this crazy thing work?
- Is the big Achille's Heel on the design too obvious, or just enough to be interesting?
- How thick should the armour be? I'm thinking of a length of 635 metres, a flightdeck width of 150 metres, and Super-Dreadnaught class armour. Would that work?
- What should I call this type of vessel? "Armoured Aircraft Carrier with Internalized Flight Deck" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue

- How much should these vessels be sold for?

Thank you in advance for any help. You know, assuming I get any. :)


By the way, nice picture, but you should have saved it in .png. It's not much bigger than jpg and it rolls out like BMP.

ARMOUR:
I'd say 450mm-700mm belt armour, maybe you could fit a small layer of titanium in there. Materialwise, steel with aluminum oxide alloy backup and maybe some ceramics is probably your best bet - the thing is big and people really underestimate just how expensive it is to buy depleted uranium/titanium/tungsten and other strong materials in large enough numbers to cover a big warship. You want the main armour box to be about 700-850mm strong. That can be pure steel with layered in aluminium, titanium and ceramics. Then for your internal aircraft bays, another box about 400mm thick, probably just steel with a really small (10-20mm) titanium layer. If there is nothing between the boxes already, you may want to pad them out with foam and non-flammable materials.

I know this doesn't look like your ship, but its a useful illustration I did in paint in about 3 minutes.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6479/cvp9ga.png

For the deck armour a continous layer of steel 425~mm thick should do it. A smaller (30mm) layer of steel behind that should stop the deck from splintering or breaking. You should probably use a honeycomb network of metal rods to support that armour backed up again by foam or non flammable material. This will stop any heavy plunging shells (and believe me, you want to stop them) or large missiles from heavily damaging internal systems.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1295/deckarmour6vm.png

Also, my designation is CVP - Carrier, HeaVier than Air, Protected.

*SNIP* Tempora Heroica class *SNIP*

((Hmm...Earthen Ring mean anything to you?))

so any progress being made on the modifications?
And as for building rights, have you decided on the price? an aproximation will be ok.

I'd definately buy it if you can get it to work.

I would first like to point out I am not overly good with designing anything technical apart from with images.

With the real life flaws of such a design that have already been pointed out, I was thinking maybe having a seperate landing and take-off deck. It would be considerably hard to manually land an aircraft within a small area like that (bit like barnstorming no?). By having a landing deck (with aircraft transfer through lifts like in a standard one) on top and a take-off below you could avoid this problem, until perhaps the take-off one is destroyed? Didnt think about that too much. This would leave the dodgy landing without this computer alone until such an event occured that the deck was damaged.

This would of course wreck the nice visual design (which I would like to say is a nice job), and the armour might have to be adapted. It could be placed under whatever material the deck is made from though.

Just a thought, like I said, not too good with stuff like this.

On a further note, can I pre-order when/if its produced?

EDIT: Also you could have the take-off and landing at the same time, or if needed two landing and two taking off (even if two landing is dodgy).

Again, thank you to everyone for thier input.

I very sorry that I haven't mentioned this explicitly, but since it's been mentioned, I have to mention that I cannot take full credit for the picture of the Tempora Heroica. Some time ago, a user named Greenmanbry was taking on commisions to draw ships. He was kind enough to draw a picture for my Pax Magellanic Class Carrier (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8853333&postcount=1), which was mentioned as the basis for the Tempora Heroica in the first post. Greenmanbry drew this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NS%20Colonial%20Products/Pax_Magellanic_Small.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NS%20Colonial%20Products/Pax_Magellanic_Large.png)

Incharacter, the Tempora Heroica was based on the already serving Pax Magellanic design. OOCly, the Pax Magellanic was modified into the Tempora Heroica. It is Greenmanbry, who unfortunately appears to no longer be on NS II, that is the real artist. I should have mentioned him in this thread earlier, and I apologize for not doing so.

I'm going to be sure to mention him, as well as all of you, in the sales thread once that happens.



Since my last post, I've resized how the launch/landing ports look on the picture, although no actual change is being made to thier 8 metre height. This was done to better fit the scale. On the picture, I think the ports looked taller then they really are. There are still some issues with the scaling of the drawing, mainly with the size of the CIWS compared to the size of everything else, but don't think it's reasonably accurate scale wise.

Questers' (Hogsweatia's) and Hurtful Thoughts' input has been extremely helpful, and I'd just like to extend my appriciation. I'm not very good at this type of thing, but for some damned reason, I occasionally get the urge to try something out. Thank you for helping make it work out.

Taking Questers' (Hogsweatia's) and Hurtful Thoughts' suggestions, I have added VLS Launch Tubes onto the top of the vessel, added another set of launch/landing ports, and labelled all of the features that weren't so obvious to the eye.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NationStates/06d963ca.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/JC_Denton/NationStates/659bb30c.jpg)



You know, with a big flat armoured superstructure, and the realitive armor of a dreadnaught, you could try making use of that deck space with rockets. (since it would lack the depth necessary for large guns or fancy launchers)

That is a damned good idea, and I've incorporated that into the revised version of the ship above. Thank you for suggesting that.


2ndly, if you're going to put one deck under a cover, why not turn all the hangar levels into flight decks (would save space from aircraft elevators, this would be offset by the complexity of the takeoff and landing hardware needed [steam turbines would need alot of power to pump 12 catapults near simultaniously, but think of the tactical advantage of being able to get a whole fighter wing airborne in seconds])


Again, damned good idea. Thank you.


Although I would recomend an angled internal deck (this would mean another hole) and some space on the above deck for a few helicopters, if you seriously are going to develop this.


I labelled the helipads, since they were hard to see in the original picture.

I'd rather not open up too many more ports though. I think two decks open is enough.


I would lean towards classifying it a "Through Deck" Aircraft Carrier, especially if you start putting things above the flight deck. 'Covered deck' if you leave the superstucture baren.


I've seen pictures of Through Deck Crusiers though, and they just look like small aircraft carriers. I know this is a stupid question, but exactly what does "Through Deck" mean? A deck that is clearly traversable from one end to another? Because that doesn't seem to get across that the flight deck has been internalized.


(wouldn't want someone to try strafing your protected planes thinking they weren't; I once mistook a coast guard cutter for a PT boat, then I almost tried boarding it with a group of 30 waterlogged marines thinking it only had 10 militiamen on board, turned out there where 20 combat ready marines, and 40 plus sailors instead; needless to say, all my men failed in their attempt)

The unexpected always leads to fun. :)

I wonder if these ships will be mistaken for something else by satellites? With just sensors, communication masts and weapons on top, it doesn't look like most carriers. RP potential? I think so.

Also, would you like IC recognition in the sales thread when that comes around? Like, "Passchendale Colonial Fleetyards, with assistance from ?

If it works I'll buy some.

Apparently, the basic concept works. It'll have a few design flaws left in for a richer RPing flavour, but since you're ordering ships to be built for you though, you don't have to deal with that.

When you're purchasing the ships, you can ask that the flightdecks be built taller and the ports bigger. You don't have to use my Nexus III computer core either, if you don't want to. If you want, you can replace it with one of your own, and/or give it less responsiblities, so it only lands planes instead of also controlling CIWS and giving directions to pilots.If your pilots can handle it, you can even have them land through the new, bigger ports manually.

These changes, should you choose to make them yourself or tell me to make them as you order, should clear up the problems that the domestic version of the ship will have.

You might have problems with armouring such a large void space in terms of structural strength, you might find that even realatively light damage to the upper structure will cause serious problems to the udnerlying support structures, an issue that was a major problem for the ww2 british armoured deck designs.

I thnk what Questers (Hogsweatia) outlines below should help with this. Besides, the decks immedately above the flight decks won't be void, but will have what's usually below the flight deck in them. Crew facilities and quarters, that type of thing.


You are going to get all sorts of really really horrible airflow problems through the deck but i suppose a series of adjustable baffles and vanes could be used to control such issues. You are still likely going to need somn sort of open deck on the top of the structure to allow the operation of helos which would allow these vessels to deploy thier own AEW&C platforms (think some sort of big VTOL like a quad tilt rotor or similar).

I've labelled the three helipads on the diagram, since they were hard to see earlier.

By the way, nice picture, but you should have saved it in .png. It's not much bigger than jpg and it rolls out like BMP.


Thank you, but Greenmanbry deserves the vast majority of your praise.

I would use .png, but for some reason, my MS Paint won't work with it. That's especially strange considering that Greenmanbry told me he made the Pax Magellanic drawings in MS Paint, and he sent them to me in .png.


ARMOUR:
I'd say 450mm-700mm belt armour, maybe you could fit a small layer of titanium in there. Materialwise, steel with aluminum oxide alloy backup and maybe some ceramics is probably your best bet - the thing is big and people really underestimate just how expensive it is to buy depleted uranium/titanium/tungsten and other strong materials in large enough numbers to cover a big warship. You want the main armour box to be about 700-850mm strong. That can be pure steel with layered in aluminium, titanium and ceramics. Then for your internal aircraft bays, another box about 400mm thick, probably just steel with a really small (10-20mm) titanium layer. If there is nothing between the boxes already, you may want to pad them out with foam and non-flammable materials.

I know this doesn't look like your ship, but its a useful illustration I did in paint in about 3 minutes.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6479/cvp9ga.png

For the deck armour a continous layer of steel 425~mm thick should do it. A smaller (30mm) layer of steel behind that should stop the deck from splintering or breaking. You should probably use a honeycomb network of metal rods to support that armour backed up again by foam or non flammable material. This will stop any heavy plunging shells (and believe me, you want to stop them) or large missiles from heavily damaging internal systems.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1295/deckarmour6vm.png


I LOVE YOU. Thank you so much.

Do you want IC recognition for that armour scheme? Like, "Passchendale Colonial Fleetyards, with assistance from [insert Questers company/government here]? I certainly think you deserve it.

Is it okay if I use those pictures, as long as I mention that they're yours whenever I post them? It's okay if you don't want me to use them, but they just look great.


Also, my designation is CVP - Carrier, HeaVier than Air, Protected.

That one's pretty good. I don't think "protected" is taken yet, and it gets across that there's something more "armoured" about it without using that term. Thank you.

((Hmm...Earthen Ring mean anything to you?))

No, I'm sorry. I got the name "Tempora Heroica" from the Wikipedia list of latin phrases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_%28full%29).

so any progress being made on the modifications?
And as for building rights, have you decided on the price? an aproximation will be ok.

Thank you for expressing your interest. Please see "Edit Regarding Sales" at bottom of post

I'd definately buy it if you can get it to work.

Thank you for expressing your interest. Please see "Edit Regarding Sales" at bottom of post

I would first like to point out I am not overly good with designing anything technical apart from with images.

That's okay. I'm not overly good at designing [i]anything, so you're already one step ahead. :)


It would be considerably hard to manually land an aircraft within a small area like that (bit like barnstorming no?).


To be honest, with the unaltered 8 metre ports of the domestic version, if a pilot tries to come in manually, I'm going to have him or her hit something and possibly explode about half the time.

Gives the design a distinctive flavour. On the domestic model, atleast.


By having a landing deck (with aircraft transfer through lifts like in a standard one) on top and a take-off below you could avoid this problem, until perhaps the take-off one is destroyed? Didnt think about that too much. This would leave the dodgy landing without this computer alone until such an event occured that the deck was damaged.

This would of course wreck the nice visual design (which I would like to say is a nice job), and the armour might have to be adapted. It could be placed under whatever material the deck is made from though.


A two flight deck design has been settled on, with launching/landing capability on both.

The computer core on the domestic version of the ship though, will be unreasonably huge. As in, a giant tube that takes up space on five decks huge. It makes it much more vulnerable, and gives the ship an interesting weakness, I think. If you purchase your own Tempora Heroica, ofcourse, you can order it without the Nexus III Computer Core, and use instead a more normally sized computer.


On a further note, can I pre-order when/if its produced?


Thank you for expressing your interest. Please see "Edit Regarding Sales" at bottom of post



EDIT REGARDING SALES

"Will I be able to buy it?"
Sales will be controlled. IC backrounds checks will have to apply to everyone. I'm sorry. Democratic nations will nearly always be cleared. Communist and Capitalizt nations will probably be cleared. Facist nations, dictatorships are unlikely to be, but may still be, cleared.

"How much will it cost?"
Right now, the pricing scheme will probably look like:

(1) Tempora Heroica Domestic Version, no modifications: 30 billion
(2) Tempora Heroica without Nexus III Computer Core: 28 Billion
(3) Tempora Heroica with flightdecks and ports increased in size to 20 metres or less: 31 billion
(4) Tempora Heroica with flightdecks and ports increased in size to 20 metres or less, without Nexus III Computer Core: 29 billion

(P) Production Rights: 800 billion. Military basing rights, or economic contracts, if offered, will lower the price. DC is in need of oil and oil products such as plastics, food, industrial chemicals, and textiles. Some sort of trade, like X number of barrels per oil for X number of months would be acceptable instead of US Dollars if the liquid funds aren't available.

Does it work?
The basic concept works, but the following flaws are being left on purpose for the domestic version:

- 8 metre tall landing/lanuch ports are unsafe/prevent use of AWACS
- big huge central computer

Since you're ordering ships to be built for you though, you don't have to deal with that.

When you're purchasing the ships, you can ask that the flightdecks be built taller and the ports bigger. You don't have to use my Nexus III computer core either, if you don't want to. If you want, you can replace it with one of your own, and/or give it less responsiblities, so it only lands planes instead of also controlling CIWS and giving directions to pilots.If your pilots can handle it, you can even have them land through the new, bigger ports manually.

These changes, should you choose to make them yourself or tell me to make them as you order, should clear up all of the problems that the domestic version of the ship will have.

Nah man, it's cool, you can take it. I'm just happy that I can give someone a hand with my relatively useless knowledge. I'll assume your IC engineers would have figured out my ideas already. Of course if its the next big thing you know where I am :P

Nah man, it's cool, you can take it. I'm just happy that I can give someone a hand with my relatively useless knowledge. I'll assume your IC engineers would have figured out my ideas already. Of course if its the next big thing you know where I am :P

Thank you. Seriously, thank you. :)

I'm not very good at this type of thing, but the ships of NS have always seemed to be such cool vessels. Even though I'd probably be better off just buying something from you or Sarzonia or something, it's just so much more fun to make something up. I would have alot of trouble without help though, so really, I appriciate it.

Any thoughts on this armour scheme?

Main Belt - 700mm Total
300mm Steel
180mm Aluminum Oxide Alloy
120mm Titanium Alloy
100mm Advanced Ceramics

Primary Armour Box - 800mm Total
360mm Steel
140mm Aluminum Oxide Alloy
200mm Titanium Alloy
100mm Advanced Ceramics

Flight Deck Box - 220mm Total
200mm Steel
20mm Titanium Alloy
200mm Steel
Layer of Non-Flammable Foam

Deck Armour
450mm Steel
20mm Steel
Supported by Steel Rods in Honey Comb Support Network


I'm currently running this by the NS Draftroom (http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=1206), and assuming they don't tear it apart, I think the Tempora Heroica should go retail tommorow, or maybe the day after.

Excellent, excellent drawing. I seriously wish you would use PNG or, failing that, GIF. JPEG is just too lossy and it will ruin a richly detailed pic like this.

A bloody excellent thread here, extremely informative!

One issue for me before I would consider something of this nature is the fact that it can't take larger aircraft. This would be especially felt for co-ordination of the aircraft when they were outside of the carriers radar range when normal AWAC's support would be unavailable due to the carrier only carrying fighter aircraft and possibly some light attack options.

Now I know that many fighters can carry ASM and similar weaponary, but would this be penalising your attack possibilities and the usage of the carrier as an offensive weapon? Whilst the RL US Navy uses the F/A-18 which would fit into your landing bays, many NS navies use larger aircraft for this purpose.

Perhaps the carrier would best be accompanied by another of a different class that did not utilise the covered deck design so that it could launch the support aircraft needed by such a large fighter force? I know from past Naval RP's that I would be unwilling to use a carrier by its self if it had no AWAC's aircraft with it as this would handicap the offensive capability as well as meaning that low flying attack aircraft could not be picked up at the longer range that AWAC's radar allows.

However that may be me being pedantic! I will keep an eye on the thread and can't wait to see how it develops!

On a seperate matter do you have any links to threads where you are selling any of the previously mentioned carriers? They also seem to be of most promising design, far better than the two I have attempted to construct!

Your carrier has progressed greatly. I will defenately buy productions rights or something when the whole thing is finished. Or I could trade you production rights for some of my stuff.

The armor scheme looks great, and taking Hitmen's sugestion into consideration. You coudl have the covred flight deck, but the armor itself could be a flight deck, so the carrier could launch an AWACS before the battle, and have it land after, or during some type of lull. This would laso work for helicopters, which cant take of an internalized flight deck.

That is one fine looking Carrier right there. Tho i think that the Duel landing bays one on top of another is a bad thing, i would have 1 large one, you know for safety.

~Pijoon

Any thoughts on this armour scheme?
Main Belt - 700mm Total
300mm Steel
180mm Aluminum Oxide Alloy
120mm Titanium Alloy
100mm Advanced Ceramics


I might be able to pierce that with a 21" rocket torpedo with shaped charge.
(provided I punch through the majority of the ceramics before the charge detonates)

PROHT (my government) is currently working on replacing its old cruisers and sole light aircraft carrier. And has two hulls already laid at New Ronoke Island.

I might be interested in buying/building one myself. May I put another hole in mine though? (angled landing deck), enlarged ports, no CPU, simple frenzel lens landng aid.

BTW: I can't read your detailed captions (server resolution too poor)

I might be able to pierce that with a 21" rocket torpedo with shaped charge.
(provided I punch through the majority of the ceramics before the charge detonates)

Would that go through most ship's armour, or is the armour composition I outlined just not very well planned?


PROHT (my government) is currently working on replacing its old cruisers and sole light aircraft carrier. And has two hulls already laid at New Ronoke Island.

I might be interested in buying/building one myself. May I put another hole in mine though? (angled landing deck), enlarged ports, no CPU, simple frenzel lens landng aid.


You can put in an angled flight deck after you purchase the aircraft. I'm sure that won't be too difficult for your engineers to do.

You can enlarge the landing/launch ports and the flight deck height after purchase, or pay DC some money to increase them, and the height of the flight decks, before delivery to your nation.

You can order the Tempora Heroica without the computer core, and in doing so, save some money. There will be some kind of price reduction for ordering a carrier without a computer core.

Sale of the Tempora Heroica should probably start tommorow, or the day after. The NS Draftroom isn't pointing out any critical flaws, so once the armour is confirmed, then sales should begin.


BTW: I can't read your detailed captions (server resolution too poor)

The picture is also a link. Clicking it should take you to a 344x548 image.

The armour you have is the best I've ever seen to date.

the rocket torpedo has an impact velocity of over 300 knots, and the shaped charge may penetrate 210 inches/5250 mm RHAe.

Simply put, most boats wouldn't stand a chance if it hit you (unguided for now) and these things tend to tear their way through traditional torpedo nets (which also slow your ship down [supposedly worked like spaced tank armour, except water conducts shock waves really well])

Strap another 0 to the armor figures and you'd most likely be immune to everything, keep in mind that 45 deg deflection gives armor modifier of x2, and this increases exponentially. You have approxomately RHAe of 2500 mm (KE) to 5300 mm (CE).

Keep in mind an 18" torpedo (traveling 30 knots) from a swordfish biplane after narrowly missing the Bismark (and with standard torpex HE) managed to saw off her stern. And repeated this to the Prinze Eugen. And likewise managed to damage the Tirpitz, which was them limpet mined with 200 pund explosives, then finally sunk by a single hit by a 'tallboy'.

The Yammato also was sunk by 21" torpedoes.

a 21" torp tends to weigh 1 to 2 tons.

As you are
A rocket torpedo would be a massive concern, while guided missiles would most likely bounce harmlessly off your belt armour.
(not going to figure out what a projectile with 21" diameter, with a mass of 1,000 Kg and a velocity of 600 Km/h would penetrate in addition to the shaped charge)
Fpressure=M*V*V/Area

The rocket torpedo must penetrate at least 100 mm before exploding, if not more, in order to cause substantail damage, 10 mm to 100mm would produce cracking and/or pinhole leaks in your boat.

And if you do decide to make your boat immune to these, I'll just have to modify my MRBMs into supercav torpedoes.

The armour you have is the best I've ever seen to date.


Thank you, but I should thank Questers (Hogsweatia) for outlining the thicknesses.

I'd like to thank you for your input, Hurtful Thoughts. I'm not very good at this, and your input has helped alot.

Assuming the NS Draftroom dosen't come up with anything groundshattering, then the Tempora Heroica will go on sale tommorow. Would you like some kind of IC recognition in the write-up? For example, "Passchendale Colonial Fleetyards, with technical consultation from [insert Hurtful Thoughts government/company here]"? I think you certainly deserve it, and it gives the class a bit more IC texture to it. How about it?

And if you do decide to make your boat immune to these, I'll just have to modify my MRBMs into supercav torpedoes.

I think the armour is extensive enough.

I always did think supercavs were cool though.

Jokingly: Only if I get a free carrier out of it.

A bit more serious: No thanks. Honoured, but no thanks, The People's Republic doen't seem to have any great knowledge in nuclear boats, or super fancy computers. We specialise in making things like that utterly useless. At least ICly.

Of course, I might take credit for giving you some unguided rocket torpedoes, high yield thermobaric weapons, and Field Compression Generators (E-bombs). Oh and some really small planes, the UL-2000, not of much value though.

Ooh, I would be willing to accept credit for supplying the supercavs for armor testing, would require a dead on square hit (deflection and such) and with the majority of its fuel stil intact to do REAL damage.

Our good bio weapons are currently not being disclosed. For political reasons.

Of course, I might take credit for giving you some unguided rocket torpedoes, high yield thermobaric weapons, and Field Compression Generators (E-bombs). Oh and some really small planes, the UL-2000, not of much value though.

Ooh, I would be willing to accept credit for supplying the supercavs for armor testing, would require a dead on square hit (deflection and such) and with the majority of its fuel stil intact to do REAL damage.


Very good then. I'll mention that the armour was tested by firing munitions provided by Hurtful Thoughts at it, and that it did quite well.

Jokingly: Only if I get a free carrier out of it.

I know you were joking, but if you do want one, then that would work too. Hurtful Thoughts tests the armour, and for compensation, gets to keep the carrier that they were testing on - after repairs, ofcourse.

How does that sound? You could modify the flight decks to suit your needs while you're at it.

Sounds terrrific, now I need an air force to put on the thing.

PROHT's air force mostly consists of propped planes, the FMX-6B being the most modern. Although we do have 21 jet carrier planes (F-4 Phantom IIs). Hope to have this remedied with militarised PDE-1s (suped up Learjets).

Any large carrier could most likely carry most if not all of PROHT's planes. (might take 3 to carry all of them)

I'll dredge the boat up and fix it up when I have a more expansive navy. till then it'll be an artificial reef.

A bloody excellent thread here, extremely informative!

One issue for me before I would consider something of this nature is the fact that it can't take larger aircraft. This would be especially felt for co-ordination of the aircraft when they were outside of the carriers radar range when normal AWAC's support would be unavailable due to the carrier only carrying fighter aircraft and possibly some light attack options.

Now I know that many fighters can carry ASM and similar weaponary, but would this be penalising your attack possibilities and the usage of the carrier as an offensive weapon? Whilst the RL US Navy uses the F/A-18 which would fit into your landing bays, many NS navies use larger aircraft for this purpose.

Perhaps the carrier would best be accompanied by another of a different class that did not utilise the covered deck design so that it could launch the support aircraft needed by such a large fighter force? I know from past Naval RP's that I would be unwilling to use a carrier by its self if it had no AWAC's aircraft with it as this would handicap the offensive capability as well as meaning that low flying attack aircraft could not be picked up at the longer range that AWAC's radar allows.

However that may be me being pedantic! I will keep an eye on the thread and can't wait to see how it develops!

On a seperate matter do you have any links to threads where you are selling any of the previously mentioned carriers? They also seem to be of most promising design, far better than the two I have attempted to construct!

I'm so sorry, Independent Hitmen, for not answering your questions earlier. I must have somehow overlooked your post. I apologize.

Your concerns are very valid, and it's true that optimally, the Tempora Heroica should be used in conjunction with another, more conventional carrier.

Most fighters, however, should be able to fit through the landing ports and into the flight decks, even at the unmodified 8 metre height. For comparison's sake, the F-14 Tomcat is only 4.8 metres tall, while the F-111 Aardvark is only 5.13 metres tall. The Tomcat and the Aardvark are the some of the largest real life fighter/bombers, so most NS fighters should be able to manage. Even if one's nation uses a fighter that is too tall for the flight decks however, then upon ordering, one could always order taller flight decks. The IC builder, Passchendale Colonial Fleetyards, will offer resizing of both flightdecks up to a maximum of 20 metres each for a minor price increase.

You are correct in that the Tempora Heroica won't be able to safely field AWACS aircraft, not without resized flight decks anyways. A possible solution that I've been thinking of though, is the remounting of an AWACS system onto some kind of blimp that could land on the upper deck helipads when not in use. As you said though, the optimal choice would be to use it with another, more conventional carrier.

There is no sales thread right now, but there will be one shortly. I will link to it once it is complete.

There is no sales thread right now, but there will be one shortly. I will link to it once it is complete.


Looking foward to that.

Ill buy production rights or at least 4 or 5 units.

Gonna expand my navy enven further.

I already got 14 Columbo-Carriers (pimped out Nimitz Class) and 16 Falkisky-Carriers (upgraded Kiev-Class). What I do need is a destroyer and small craft (patrol, tropedo) models (well, modern ones).

Ill buy production rights or at least 4 or 5 units.

Thank you. The sales thread should be posted very shortly.

What I do need is a destroyer and small craft (patrol, tropedo) models (well, modern ones).

I'd love to sell you some, but unfortunately, this is only my second ship design and the first was an aircraft carrier as well.

For destroyers and such though, I think Questers (Hogsweatia) runs quite a nice store. He should be able to set you up with something to meet your needs.

A possible solution that I've been thinking of though, is the remounting of an AWACS system onto some kind of blimp that could land on the upper deck helipads when not in use. As you said though, the optimal choice would be to use it with another, more conventional carrier.

Actually, a blimp wouldn't really need to land, all it takes is a mooring mast that doesn't have excessive heat
(heat will expand gas in cells, causing leaks and reduced lift/endurance)

Once fixed onto this mast it could even be towed upwind, or lowered coser to the deck and lashed down and deflated for storage.

PROHT has been working on an airship for martime patrol, and can lift up to 30 tons of supplie/ordnance, its flaw is that it was designed to use hydrogen as a lifting gas.
(but the again the skin coating and fuel are also flammable, and a cell that has burst/melted holds gas just as poorly as if the gas itself where on fire)

The advantage of this however is that it can use electrolosis to get hydrogen from the seawater, and thus remain airborne indefinately.
(only coming down for overhauls/storage and stopping only to take on supplies)

The Graf Zeplin circumnavigated the globe in 12 days in 4 hops, and carried 40 crew, 11 passengers.
(had to start in america take off and land in America, but the clocks started and stopped in Germany)
America to Germany; Germany to Japan; Japan to San Francisco; San Francisco to Germany.

PROHT would be happy to supply the airships and or advisors in the construction of airships.

PROHT would be happy to supply the airships and or advisors in the construction of airships.

That'd be great.

We seem to have such synergy together, it's funny. :)

Is it okay if I mention IC in the sales thread that development of an AWACS blimp is being undertaken by DC and Hurtful Thoughts? I don't imagine it'd be too complicated, just the mounting of an AWACS package onto your 30 ton airships would work, wouldn't it?

If that works, I'd love to buy production rights to that system from you, since you already have a good airship design.

Sure, you may make them, in fact we'll send you advisors via the test blimp for electronics package fitting.

Yes, I could accept credit for that too, now divy it out some credit to other people.

Sales thread posted here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10582822#post10582822).

On the advice of the NS Draftroom, sales price was increased to 35 billion, but production rights have remained at 800 billion.

Thank you to everyone who offered input or commentary on the development of the Tempora Heroica.