NationStates Jolt Archive

[OOC: True enough, it's hard for me to distinguish, since I'm so used to my tech level which is ~2030-2040.]

Fleet Admiral Nazmareh looked up from her notepad, finishing the notes on the ETC vs. railgun debate. "What about coilguns? Are they easier to work with as naval armaments?" She had heard of the various armaments, but she was no engineer, simply the officer who commanded the fleet after the engineers had decided what to arm it with.

Terry Lierman thought quietly. He had little to say; what he had said was said. On reflection, he realized that he was a poor representative for The Beltway; it was obvious why they had chosen him. This way, he couldn't interfere in the election. This way, he couldn't make his voice be heard in The Beltway.

Well, why should he stay? Why not just go home? After all, The Beltway had little to offer Kahanistan, and what little it had would only benefit plutocrats like Cochrane. He quietly sent an e-mail by cell phone.

To: Mark_Warner@state_private_affairs.gov
From: Terry_Lierman@beltway_dnc.org
Subject: Kahanistan conference

It's pointless for me to stay. I'm not the corporate shill of Baltimore Shipyards or any other company, and I don't know about the military technology the others are rattling on about. Perhaps you can arrange to send someone else, but I need to head home.

To: Terry_Lierman@beltway_dnc.org
CC: Mark_Warner@state_private_affairs.gov
From: Ben_Cardin@bsf.mil
Subject: Re: Kahanistan Conference

Mr. Lierman, the Foreign Minister and I have discussed this, and due to the...situation, we cannot at this time authorize your departure. However, we will take measures to ensure that you make it out of Kahanistan alive...
Noon, May 5, 2016
North of Hagerstown, Maryland
"Everyone present? Good. I have been authorized to give you a limited briefing on Operation Silent Eagle. To make things quick, Silent Eagle involves our deployment to Kahanistan to protect our delegation at the conference there. We may be tasked with rescuing the people at the conference. We leave tonight; you'll get a fuller briefing on the planes," Captain Alan Benton, commander of the First Beltway Special Forces Unit, announced to the 200 commandos under his command.

They were a mixed bunch; some were ex-SWAT team members, others ex-USMC. Still, they had come together, and had learned from experts in special operations - ex-Rangers, ex-SEALs, ex-Delta Force operatives. They were well-armed, equipped with Javelin and Predator ATGMs, M-17 assault rifles, Remington shotguns, and Baretta .50" sniper rifles, M249 LMGs and M240G machine guns. Explosives experts, trained in the effective use of C4, were also part of the unit. They were pretty good.

And now, they might be going up against Kraven...

Nettleton politely responded to the representative of the Golden Throne's best known firm. "I thank you for correcting me on how the Electro-Thermal-Chemical weapon works, as I tend to forget on how exactly it works and explaining it correctly. As for the ARSB - I will agree with you that the Mekhev, along with the other products created by Dat' Pizdy, is filled with superfluous systems that instead of helping the tank, hinder its performance. But to say the ARSB is inflexible is in the face of critique is simply untrue."

The man of Eurasian ethnicity concluded the sentence with a tone that showed that he was slightly offended. Then he continued speaking in his polite manner.

"The Dynamic Gas Assist on the Mekhev is useless, I shall agree with you on that - that's why on our own domestic refit of the Bonham, we got rid of it. In fact, they are flexible in the sense that they respect other national armed forces' doctrines and are willing to modify their own products in order to fit the other national doctrines. Besides, you have to remember that the Dat' Pizdy Corporation, is a business like the firm you work for - that's why they chunk all the other objects onto it and remain adamant about it - marketing purposes. And unfortunately these days, there are so many gullible people that believe everything they say and it can work flawlessly, and as a result, the Dat' Pizdy Corporation gets these kind of criticisms."

"But as this meeting is not about the Dat' Pizdy Corporation, and rather about the state of the Kahanistanian armed forces and giving advice on how they should improve for future combats, let's get back to that and leave the Dat' Pizdy discussion behind, shall we?"

Then the Eurasian turned to the Admiral of the Republic Navy. "While my knowledge of coil-guns are limited, what I can tell you an advantage about the coil-gun is that it has no moving parts other than the projectile, and it is silent - only the noise of the moving projectile can be heard as it hits high speeds. Like rail-guns, coil-guns are capable of sending projectiles onto targets at supersonic speed; they are less capable than rail-guns. And as the Southeast Asian ability to handle the rail-gun isn't exactly what one will call masterful, we still have some issues to do with the rail-gun before we can utilize them in our own armed forces. So I stand by the Isselmerian-Nielander's position on rail-guns - while the ETC weapon is not as potent in terms of destruction on electromagnetic weaponry, and is more expensive than the conventional gun, it is more cost-efficient to utilize and should be more appropriate for the Kahanistanian armed forces."

2:00 PM, May 4, 2016
The Foreign Ministry, Georgetown
"You really think this will work?" Prime Minister Timothy Kaine asked, seated behind his Oval Office desk.

"Certainly. There will be no means of identifying our equipment as from The Beltway; we don't have the kind of exposure in terms of designs, apart from our ships, for them to be recognizable. Further, the commandos we're sending are well-trained; they know how to stay hidden. Finally, the benefits from a successful mission will be exceptional. In the event of success, the nations that sent delegates to Kahanistan will be greatful for our help, even if they can't publicly express their gratitude. Further, we will have demonstrated that we can successfully outfight the Kraven military," Defence Minister Benjamin Cardin replied. He was a bit nervous, though he didn't show it.

Silent Eagle had come from a RAND Corporation feasibility study conducted just two weeks ago; it had been heavily altered from a concept to prevent attacks on American embassies in war-torn states by secretly deploying reinforcements to the guard details. Nonetheless, it was a workable plan - or so the RAND Corporation people had said...

"Well, as long as you're confident of success and secrecy, I think this could work. Now get to work on it," Kaine said in response.

To Allanea -
We are planning a secret deployment to Kahanistan's capital, in order to quietly prepare to rescue the delegates at a conference being held there from Kraven attack. We desire to secretly use your airbases to stage our commandos into Kahanistan; a total of four C-5s, twelve F-22s, and three KC-10s will be deployed to Allanea, and all but the tankers will eventually be landing in Kahanistan.
Please keep this deployment as secret as possible; we do not want this to leak.
Sincerely,
PM Timothy Kaine
To Kahanistan MoD -
We intend to secretly deploy a force of 200 commandos, twenty-four helicopters, four heavy battle tanks, twelve fighters, and four large transport planes to your capital and its environs for a possible rescue operation involving the delegates at the Kahanistan Conference. We hope that said operation will be unnecessary, but wish to prepare for the worst. We would like to secure your assistance - and engineers - in building a temporary airfield near Najaster for our helicopters to be secretly based from, and will secretly pay you back for the costs of constructing the airfield. We also wish to secure permission to deploy our forces to Kahanistan.
Please keep this deployment as secret as possible; we do not want this to leak.
Sincerely,
PM Timothy Kaine

General Kasagawa opened her inbox at her laptop, reading the Beltway message. While the Kahanistanian Admiral was talking to the delegates about the feasibility of using coilguns as naval guns, the Defense Minister was responding to the Beltway Prime Minister.

DEMOCRATIC SOVIET REPUBLIC OF KAHANISTAN
Ministry of Defense

The Government of Kahanistan is willing in principle to accept this offer, but we don't know how you will keep an airfield hidden with helicopters taking off and landing. Our Presidential Guard is capable of evacuating the delegates, should that prove necessary, and they have the best equipment in Kahanistan before it ever gets to other units. They number only 1,500, but are among the best soldiers in the Republic Guard.

However, you may use the Presidential Guard's helicopter airfields for any evacuation missions.

Signed,
General Nora Kasagawa,
Minister of Defense

The Admiral was continuing her armament discussion. "I understand that coilguns are less effective in battle, but would they not be superior to what we have, if we do not have the technology to construct a reliable railgun? Also, the lack of moving parts seems an advantage, fewer parts to be damaged in day-to-day use."

To Gen. Kasagawa -
We do not intend to use the airfield more than once, so the issue of hiding the helicopters should be less difficult. Consider our commandos a supplement to your Presidential Guard.
Sincerely,
PM Kaine of The Beltway


4:15 PM, May 5, 2016
Falls Church, Virginia, The Beltway
Four M2 Andrew Lim Heavy Battle Tanks had been delivered to the tiny General Dynamics plant in the small Virginia suburb of Falls Church an hour ago. There, mechanics were hard at work separating the turret from the chassis on each of the tanks, so as to drop the weight enough to carry the tanks. The turrets themselves were to be shipped aboard one C-5, along with the ammunition and supplies...

"Well, as I stated earlier myself, my knowledge of rail-gun and coil-gun weaponry is limited, so I even could have gotten the details of the coil-gun myself wrong." Nettleton responded calmly, knowing there was something bad in the air since the President of Kahanistan left, but he couldn't quite place his finger on it. Nevertheless, he kept his polite and amicable outlook, and kept on doing his job.

"Perhaps you should ask Mr. Devlán and let him explain," he turned, gesturing to the representative of Kriegzimmer, "as the Macabee Imperium and the Conglomerate have devoted a lot more research into electromagnetic acceleration than either my nation has or myself."

Devlán nodded and silently thanked the Southeast Asian representative, and then he turned his head towards the Kahanastanian board, "The coilgun works on the same basic principle as the railgun - electromagnetic acceleration. The idea behind the coilgun is a solenoid, or a spiralling conductive/ferromagnetic material coiling around the barrel. By sending an electrical current down the coil you are creating an electrical force in that direction. This doesn't make the round spin since the force would theoritically be straight. The railgun is just two parallel ferromagnetic rails that have a positive charge up one rail and a negative down the other... using Lorentz' Force. If tests prove correct, the coilgun is slower. The coilgun, however, should prove to be less difficult on your logistics as you don't have to replace as often, but honestly, I would rather go with the simpler railgun."

He then turned back to the Southeast Asian and said, "Although I respect your position, the Kahanistanian Navy has specifically asked for the ability to fight their foes on equal terms. In my opinion, an electrothermal-chemical gun will not give them what they asked for. However, you have one other choice which won't give you the range of a railgun, but in accuracy range is irrelevent... you'd need to fire close anyways. This option is liquid propellants. Liquid propellants have already seen use in the Hali-42 assault rifle, Nakíl 1A and YU.13."

He waited for the others to express their interest if they were indeed interested.

[OOC: The more accurate opinion is that I think they beat you out of technology, and sorta like a game of cards. You didn't understand too much about it, so you didn't question, and they bullshitted you. That might not be the same for all opponents...but some certainly did.]
OOC: Which opponents tech-wanked and beat Kahanistan out of technology like a game of cards, from what you've read? Definitely not AMF IMO....

OOC: Which opponents tech-wanked and beat Kahanistan out of technology like a game of cards, from what you've read? Definitely not AMF IMO....


[OOC: I don't want to point fingers in public.]

"Can you tell us about these liquid propellants?" asked the Defense Minister. "About the advantages and disadvantages vis-a-vis the coilgun design?" The Navy was already leaning toward the coilgun design, and they would need a strong reason for burdening their logistics with propellants.

"Ah yes, liquid propellents. A good choice. However, Admiral, given the expenses of electromagnetic acceleration and the fact that the President is betting on a smaller budget to defeat foreign threats, I disagree with adopting the coil-gun as an offensive weapon. It's much too big a step and I suggest that, until the Kahanistani economy and spending priority has returned back to Defense, you stay with the electrothermal-chemical weapon. It's more cost-efficient and more potent than a conventional gun, and if I recall correctly, are somewhat compatable with one another."

The Admiral nodded impatiently. "I'll remember that. Now, can we focus on our tactics? The Ministry of Defense will decide which technology to use later. In the end, technology won't matter if many of our commanders barely know what they're doing."

The Isselmere-Nielander representative decided to speak up.

"Ordinarily, I would advise against the use of liquid propellants owing to the problems with storage similar to those with liquid rocket propellants. New advances have made significant reduction in such concerns, but still one needs to provide volume for the propellant tanks as well as the problems that might arise should the pipes become blocked or otherwise malfunction.

"Coil guns and rail guns require a great deal of energy to operate, and for larger calibres it might be more efficient to use comparatively conservative electro-thermal chemical guns with solid propellants. Then again, it's primarily a compatibility issue, with what your nation needs or presently has."

The Defense Minister nodded. "Certainly, the Defense Ministry will want to look into all available technologies, but like the Admiral said, we should start talking about naval tactics, then possibly air and land, though we are far better on land than in the air or sea."

"We will make a decision on which technology is best for which role sometime after this meeting," the Minister reiterated.

"Before I go on to naval tactics I would like to answer your question and defend solid propellants", said Devlán, "I think that is fair." He then shuffled some papers on the desk and turned to one, "There are several advantages to liquid propellants, and all of these were explored and take advantage on for the Nakíl Main Battle Tank, our future main battle tank [OOC: As it still has not been released, and technically still in design stages]. This liquid propellant is the one that we used and expanded upon - the hydroxylammonium nitrate [OOC: Used both on the MBT and SPH designs, now] liquid propellant, which has been proven to have volume advantages to solid propellants - a bit over 25% saved. Furthermore, because it takes less volume there is less chance that an incoming round will set off the propellant. Furthermore, HAN-based monopropellants have been found to be less vulnerable than solid propellants if they are contained in cells designed to reduce the possibility of pressure build-up when hit. The only problem is that barrel wear is further exploited, although this is something that you will suffer with any change."

[OOC: For sources check the Nakíl thread on NS.]

He then shifted topics, "What do you think needs to most expansion in matter of training, the ability to react and tactics?"

The Admiral nodded, hoping she understood the Kriegzimmer delegate's question correctly.

"The individual soldier is well trained and armed, the problem is that we have little experience waging war on the sea. We want to know how to react to a large, technologically superior fleet on the sea, in battle with our forces."

(OOC: In other words, what to do against those of my opponents who are NOT tech-wankers or g*****ers?)

9:45 PM (local time), May 5, 2016
Dulles AFB
Four C-5s, twelve F-22s, and two KC-10s prepared for liftoff. Turboprops began turning and turbojets began squealing. The commandos had filed into one C-5 (which also had all small arms and ammunition, along with the four turrets), the tanks had been loaded into a pair of C-5s, with two tanks per plane, and the twelve MH-75 helicopters had been placed into the final C-5. The MH-61s would be taking off from another airfield in Allanea, where they were being flown in by C-17s from Andrews AFB.

Private Gregory Wills, an ex-SWAT officer who continued to use his old sniper rifle, sat in the C-5 next to his spotter, Private Henry Stiltz, an ex-Marine who was busy inspecting his new rifle. Stiltz had gotten the rifle only yesterday, and was still a bit unsure about it. It looked nice, but it had to have a catastrophic flaw somewhere. After all, every new rifle had one...

The planes slowly lifted into the night sky, leaving the clean, pristine runway of Dulles behind. Had Wills or Stiltz been able to see the outside of the plane, they might have noticed the slowly-disappearing countryside - mostly open land and small towns, although occasionally set off by roads and highways - below them. Still, they got the effect; as they took off, the sense of peace and calm was slowly dissapitating.

3:20 AM (local time), May 6, 2016
Allanea
Twelve F-22s, four C-5s, a KC-10, and twelve MH-61s started their engines and prepared for takeoff. The turboprops kicked up a very thin layer of dust - almost too thin to see. The turbojets' squeals echoed off into the night as the pilots ran through their checklists and awaited permission for takeoff.

"Hey, Greg, you nervous?" Stiltz asked. He hadn't found anything so far, but since he hadn't been able to fire more than sixty-four rounds - and all of those on the shooting range - he knew that there could still be flaws. It was, nevertheless, good to know that the sights and the magazine release worked...

"A bit. Still, at least we'll be finally able to fight someone," Wills replied. He knew instinctively that his rifle was fine; still, on impulse, he disassembled and reassembled it. The planes and helicopters then received permission for takeoff, and the nearly-deserted airfield disappeared beneath the ascending squadrons.

6:45 AM (local time), May 6, 2016
Outside of Najaster, Kahanistan
The landing had a bit tense; after all, the Kraven air force could have found them. The F-22s had come in armed; fortunately, the fighters, transports, and helicopters had all slipped in at low altitude without a hitch. The tankers had flown back earlier, above international waters.

Sand and dust flew everywhere on the airfield as the planes and helicopters landed. The C-5s all slowly made their way to nearby hangers, where mechanics would re-attach the tank turrets and add on appliqué armor and ERA, and where the helicopters would be hidden.

OOC: Kahanistan, any thing above the 2006 tech level does NOT equate PMT tech-wank, how many times do I have to tell you this? Tech-wanking IS NOT about how advanced your technology is, it's about HOW YOU USE IT.

Seeing that the question of liquid versus solid propellants had been decided against him, the Isselmere-Nielander representative followed the new line of discussion.

"Well, Admiral, as in land war so one must do at sea. One must first attack where the enemy is weakest rather than where the enemy possesses the greatest strength. One can lure the enemy into ambushes of awaiting submarines or other missile ships, to constantly eat away at the enemy's ability to defend its capital ships, then to strike at those vessels in a similar manner. In other words, hit the escorts, then the enemy's air cover (the carriers), then finally the battleships.

"The key to this strategy is constant surveillance, which would be possible with uncrewed and crewed AWACS aircraft. Modern active phased array radars (APARs) are sufficiently light to be used on high endurance uncrewed airships, fixed to the sides of the [for the lack of a better word at the moment] gasbag. Large high endurance fixed-wing UAVs can be as well, with multifunction electronically scanned arrays. Remember that a naval force can only be equipped with AWACS aircraft with limitations determined by carrier operations; your AWACS aircraft may be larger and consequently equipped with more powerful, or more receptive, radars. AWACS can maintain good air and surface surveillance to detect any such invasion.

"The same rules apply to sub-surface incursions. First, one conducts long range maritime patrols into international waters with long range maritime patrol aircraft (LRMA), which have the added benefit of being able to detect either surface or air attack. Secondly, one should establish passive sonar detection arrays, such as SOSUS, off one's coastlines to monitor and identify sub-surface incursions by enemy submarines. Thirdly, continual submarine patrols. Once an enemy sub has been detected, a marker buoy can be released from your submarine giving the enemy submarine's location for your LRMA, whilst your boat silently follows that of your intruder."

"And repelling naval invasions?" After battles with the Freekish, CAD, and Whyatican forces, morale in the Republic Navy was at an all-time low, especially with the loss of the RKS Chuck Norris.

The Kahanistanian Admiral took notes on what the Isselmere-Nielander delegate was saying about tactics.

(SEA: Try reading what I'm saying instead of jumping to conclusions. I explicitly referred to those who have higher tech and are NOT wankers.)

"Excuse me sir," politely interjected Nettleton, "do you refer to the ones that are commonly found through out the planet like the Iowa-class and Yamato-class, or those of similar weight and the same purpose as the aforementioned American and Japanese designs, or do you refer to what many others would dub as 'Super-Dreadnaughts'? Some navies prefer to designate those most cost-inefficient garguantuans as BBCNs - nuclear-powered command battleships."

"Now, allow me to go in-depth about my personal views: as I have hinted a few times earlier on in this conference, I believe that Super-Dreadnaughts are feasible, but often too cost-inefficient and excessive in their role. The only reason I have to cave in is because of politics - the military commanders of my nation and my people want to see their maritime pillars of power." Often pointless and excessive demonstrations of power, the financially conservative politician thought to himself upsetly.

"Had I got my way, the Southeast Asian Navy would be in complete agreement with a highly particular part of Smoke Jaguar doctrine I adore - no Super-Dreadnaughts at all. They're big magnets for a tactical nuclear weapon strike, which would result in a great loss of life - now, I know that given the immense size of a Super Dreadnaught, it has to be constructed and armored with highly durable materials such as titanium and amorphous steel, so it wouldn't neccessarily capsize - but the surrounding ships that are within the blast radius would be sent on a one-way-ticket to the seabed or be reduced to smoldering, charred and irradiated floating hulls damaged beyond repair. Now, our armed forces won't return the favor with a nuclear-tipped ICBM, as it would result in M.A.D - we don't even have nuclear weapons due to politics, and I agree that nuclear weapons deserve no place for usage in our military or ever for that matter."

"The way we'd take out a Super-Dreadnaught, would through old-fashioned but good teamwork - in other words, combined arms. We would take out all it's friendlies backing it, as you (OOC: was it your defense minister Isselmere-Nieland or the Procurement Agency Director that came along?) have suggested, eliminate the escort vessels, then hit the ship's deck hard with sensor-damaging weaponry to blind it - without any form of sight, regardless of size, a ship is useless. This time, we slowly but surely hammer away at it's tough hull with heavy torpedoes and heavy anti-ship ballista, aiming at creating several gaping holes. Why? Because as most Super Dreadnaughts are designed to be highly survivable as well as being good dishers of punishment, most Super-Dreadnaughts are reduced to burning, drifting skeletons rather than sinking because many armed forces tend to believe that sheer concentration of firepower on the said warship will overwhelm it - true if there are no escort ships backing it....must've been a certain War-Chief's scheme." he concluded his statement with a highlight reference toward the Automagfreek invasion of Kahanistan when the Republic Navy had it's very first encounter with Super Dreadnaughts.

Devlán nodded, "Even in the Kriermada there is already talk of decomissioning most of our super dreadnoughts, except three Feathermores and some of the Aristaqis class that we keep for national pride mostly. However, the War of Golden Succession and the various naval battles fought thus far continues to teach us important lessons and one of them was that the same firepower of a super dreadnought can be achieved by what we would term of a dreadnought, or something of around four hundred thousand tonnes, while it would be cheaper [relative to the super dreadnought, mind you]. On something of this size you'd be able to mount similar numbers of smaller guns, such as 20", but given that due to the fact that most people still use solid propellants the effeciency of larger guns begins to droop, if only for the fact that the barrel needs to be longer to achieve the full burn of the propellant. Even on something like the Feathermore or the Aristaqis, which use railguns, the power requirements are stupifying, and that's why the former has double the horsepower than ships of similar size [the Hood]. Twenty inchers using similar technology and rocket assisted rounds would garner similar ranges. Again, at a lower class. Indeed, our projected replacement for the Zealous, the Restíant will be armed with a dual-stage liquid propellant - perhaps not as fast as a railgun could be, but faster than a solid propellant and much less dangerous at that."

He paused to recollect what he was thinking. He had gone on quite a tangent in his rant, "In any case, as I was saying. The ship has equal firepower to something four to ten times as large, is cheaper, faster and doesn't require so many provisions at port. It's a battleline's dream, and that is exactly the reasoning the Kriermada is taking for an excuse to get rid of most of its super dreadnoughts."

"The Kahanistanian Navy is used to enemies such as AMF and MassPwnage possessing superdreadnaughts. If we lack similar targets of our own, and have equally powerful warships that also lack the logistical requirements of a superdreadnaught..."

Admiral Nazmareh collected her thoughts. "Then we have a tactical and logistical advantage, especially when we're on the defensive. That's what we're looking for, a navy that is very strong on defense, with offensive capability a secondary concern."

"Excellent to know you have a change in opinion," smiled Nettleton, "now you have to deal with the nationalistic Kahanistanis that be adamant in making a smaller vessel than the Chuck Norris, which dwarfs a Doujin or a Sentinel. As for tonnage displacement, in our fleet, a Dreadnaught - which I also find useless, is any ship of the line in the 500,000 to 1,500,000 short ton range."

"It's actually much more cost-efficient, to use what I said earlier - combined arms, no DNs or SDNs at all. Need I repeat what I said again about how my country would neutralize a foe SDN?"

*bump*

"Yes, but when you are faced with fighting super dreadnoughts you need someway to get around that, and we feel that the dreadnought is a much cheaper solution. Given somewhat extensive trials at sea this Empire has had thus far, including our victory over Kraven, and the various sea battles that still rage in our current war of succession, we've found tha this always morphing doctrine fits us rather well," Devlán added.

"We can incorporate dreadnaughts into a combined-arms force," said Nazmareh slowly. "The dreadnaughts would be effective against most escorts..."

"But how would you defend against a massive naval attack on your shores, as AMF and MassPwnage made against our homeland, and Whyatica did against our defending troops in Jagada? A situation where your forces are outnumbered, outgunned, and on the defensive..."

In fact, the defending forces at Jagada were not severely outnumbered, but with the exception of the RKS Chuck Norris, Kahanistanian warships could not generally stand up to Whyatican warships, and once "Chucky" was lost, the battle had gone to the Whyaticans.

"What is a Dreadnaught classified as in the Republic Navy?" asked the Defense Minister of Southeast Asia.

"And any way, if you want to take out a Super Dreadnaught using our strategy, especially when we ourselves do not have a Super Dreadnaught in our fleet, would be using our less powerful capital warships - battleships and aircraft carriers in particular, to terminate any hostile escort ships, while our own escort ships support the capital vessels and protect them while they're at it. Then we get equipment damaging weaponry to bombard the Super-Dreadnaught's deck - effectively aiming at blinding it, and any vessel is useless when it can't see regardless of size and power. Then we aim at making several holes in it's tough hull to sink it."

"Now, onto your next question. Before the invasion, it would always be a good idea to lay mines and traps through out the place before they arrive. Given the fact that Al-Bahr is your only coastal city, it should be common sense that for military commander to have that city's harbor blown to smithereens when the enemy gets too close for comfort. Stock up on supplies and get more via secret methods should they blockade instead of invade. Lay tank traps on the beaches, use the shallower waters closer to shore to your advantage to make sure that LHDs, LPDs, LSTs, et cetera, are denied access to your beaches. Get your AA units up and running to take out any carrier-based enemy aircraft before you gain air supremacy. Especially against low altitude, high speed bombers like the American B-1. While out of date, sadly enough, many armed forces in the world today are too focused on getting rid of high altitude, ultra-fast bombers and high altitude stealth bombers that they overlook or forget how much of a nightmare it can be to take out low altitude, high-speed bombers."

(OOC: TG SEA)

"And any way, if you want to take out a Super Dreadnaught using our strategy, especially when we ourselves do not have a Super Dreadnaught in our fleet, would be using our less powerful capital warships - battleships and aircraft carriers in particular, to terminate any hostile escort ships, while our own escort ships support the capital vessels and protect them while they're at it. Then we get equipment damaging weaponry to bombard the Super-Dreadnaught's deck - effectively aiming at blinding it, and any vessel is useless when it can't see regardless of size and power. Then we aim at making several holes in it's tough hull to sink it."

‘Have you ever used this strategy before?’ asked General Caracas, who had been standing and listening quietly since his earlier phone call. ‘The practical applications of that plan sound somewhat flawed. It is based largely on the fact that you can eliminate the enemy escorts with your capital ships while your own escorts provide protection.’

‘What would you do should the enemy super dreadnoughts ignore you escorts and target your capital ships directly?’ he demanded to know from the Southeast Asian Defence Minister. ‘Your forces wouldn’t have the firepower left to tackle the dreadnoughts and its remaining escorts?’

"Pardon what I said earlier on. I hadn't got it said completely right." The Armed Forces of Southeast Asia may not have fought in armed conflicts too often, but it has had observed other armed forces' strategies, including a few of the best, and incorporated them into our own book. thought Nettleton to himself, maintaining his friendly and formal outlook as he turned to face the Yallakian General.

"The trick is to make sure that the sensors have been disabled or keeping your lesser power projecting vessels, the battleships and the carriers, are capable of avoiding the shots or keeping out of the sights or out of weapon range. However, you are correct that once the escorts have been dealt with, the ammunition supplies would probably not be enough to take out an SD, so there is always a nice bunch of submarine wolf-pack flotillas to send them on a one-way trip to the sea-bed."

‘Ah, submarines of course,’ responded the General, ‘I often overlook those, but then again I am not an Admiral and even if I was, the Imperial navy does not employ the use of submarines.’

Caracas paused for a moment, considering the Southeast Asians strategy again. ‘I’m still not sure that such a strategy would serve Kahanistan. It relies heavily on ifs; whether or not the dreadnought is disabled, whether or not the escorts are neutralized, whether or not your own large ships can survive the initial engagement to tackle the dreadnought. From what I see, the Kahanistanian military runs somewhat like my own, to drive an anvil at the enemy until they break under the pressure. They would be better off centering their fleets around their own dreadnoughts.’

Nazmareh decided to field the queries from the other delegates.

"We don't use the dreadnaught classification ourselves, I'm referring to what Kriegzimmer calls a dreadnaught," replied the Admiral. "A super dreadnaught weighs over one megaton, and below that to 50,000 tons is a battleship. The classification is divided into three sub-classifications, a light battleship is 50,000 to 250,000 tons, a battleship is 250,000 to 600,000 tons, and a heavy battleship is 600,000 to 1,000,000 tons. They all have the hull classification BBN, our battleships are all nuclear powered. What you would have us use would rate as a medium battleship in our navy, like the King Henry V-class we import from the UKIN."

"About your suggestion to blow the harbors, when I commanded the fleet facing the Pwnage Navy, I did just that, order the harbors blown at the last minute. As for bombers, back then we only had a few B-52's, but now we have B-1's and B-2's, too."

"The Yallakian Navy does not use submarines...? We are lucky Kraven did not use them either, or the war would probably have taken a different turn."

"The Yallakian Navy does not use submarines...? We are lucky Kraven did not use them either, or the war would probably have taken a different turn."

Even as he thought back to the war with Kraven, the General turned to face Nazmareh. That battle had taken place many months ago and yet it seemed somewhat less than that – but considering he had done nothing interesting since then, only rebuilding and diplomatic meetings, it was understandable. He retraced the events in his mind and as he did he could picture the words of Supreme Commander Dagon’s report as if it were before him now. A small smile crept onto his face.

‘But they did, Admiral,’ he said, clearing his head and making eye contact with Nazmareh, ‘there were no less than a dozen Kraven Corporation submarines in that engagement. Although we don’t use them ourselves, we must still know how to fight them – more so than those who do.’

‘The Imperial Navy has always considered submarine warfare to be, well like guerilla warfare – the way of the weak – a strategy for those who cannot match strengths and prevail when standing face to face against the enemy. That’s what they say and would love us to believe anyway, the real reason could be different.’

Well, that'll have to be my last post for today.

"We don't use the dreadnaught classification ourselves, I'm referring to what Kriegzimmer calls a dreadnaught," replied the Admiral. "A super dreadnaught weighs over one megaton, and below that to 50,000 tons is a battleship. The classification is divided into three sub-classifications, a light battleship is 50,000 to 250,000 tons, a battleship is 250,000 to 600,000 tons, and a heavy battleship is 600,000 to 1,000,000 tons. They all have the hull classification BBN, our battleships are all nuclear powered. What you would have us use would rate as a medium battleship in our navy, like the King Henry V-class we import from the UKIN."

"About your suggestion to blow the harbors, when I commanded the fleet facing the Pwnage Navy, I did just that, order the harbors blown at the last minute. As for bombers, back then we only had a few B-52's, but now we have B-1's and B-2's, too."
Which was why I said that it would be virtually what any military commander would do, calmly thought the Defense Minister to himself, as always giving nothing but a positive outlook away. "Actually, I take it back. The King Henry V-class nuclear-powered battleship, now that I've taken a little more time to recall things, the aforementioned design would be a medium battleship, but almost bordering into the heavy battleship classification. The Southeast Asian Navy's battleships are within the 100,000 to 500,000 ton range.. A light battleship is 100,000 to 200,000 tons, a medium 200,000 to 400,000, and a heavy battleship 400,000 to 500,000 tons. Thank you for reminding me that again."

"Excuse me, would you like some water?" asked the younger aide as soon as he put down the jug onto the desk just after he poured himself one.

This momentarily made Nettleton forget the discussion. "Thanks for reminding me that I needed a drink." The aide poured him a glass and passed it to the Eurasian. The water refreshed him, waking him slightly up. Then he turned back to the Admiral after putting it back down gently.

"As for the bombers - I was not refering to importing bombers themselves. I was talking about how underestimated low altitude supersonic bombers like the B-1 "Lancer" are, as many armed forces fail to realize how much of a nightmare it can be to down something at low altitudes and high speeds. That, and the fact that most armed forces are often too afraid of orbital bombardment platforms and high altitude stealth bombers or hypersonic bombers to think of the B-1, it's sad to see that they can be brought down by a factor they overlooked and a not-so-up-to-standard device."

The Kahanistanian Admiral nodded her head. "I see what you mean... as I said, we do have that kind of bomber capability. However, we don't have carriers large enough to carry heavy bombers into battle. The UKIN's Union-class carrier might be able to, at a reduced capacity, but we've never tried it. In the meantime, we have some very useful strike fighters for low-altitude attacks on enemy warships."

She nodded to the Kahanistanian Defense Minister, who pulled a folder from her briefcase and handed it to the admiral. "Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11086838&postcount=32) is the file on our own fighter design, though we do not have it in sufficient numbers to replace all our fighters with it. As for bombers, our Tu-160's and B-2's are more than sufficient for our purposes."

"Perhaps we should set up naval wargames with a powerful maritime force, the ISN or UKIN navy would be good choices... maybe several different scenarios, defending a position, attacking a position, engaging numerically superior forces, et cetera, et cetera..." continued Admiral Nazmareh. She looked over at the Sarzonian and Isselmere-Nielander representatives.

I knew that this conference would bear plenty of fruit for both Kahanistan....in fact, pretty much everyone is going to get plenty of fruit, good fruit at that. Time to reveal why I requested the RSIN Corporation's presence and to have them take some lessons in diplomacy. Nettleton contently thought to himself.

"This conference, while it is a short duration in time in the grand scheme of things....shall lead to a better military force and era for the Democratic Soviet Republic. My nation's naval commanders would also be willing to hold war-games with the Republic Navy in order to make it stronger when dealing with foes on the seven seas. The RSIN Corporation's presence in Kahanistan, which will for now remain confidential and remain in this room's walls for now, will definitely have an impact on the Kahanistanian ability to construct vessels and contracts with the said firm will most likely be the seeds of a new friendship - in fact, that's the very reason why I proposed the partnership after discussing it with other members of the cabinet, then to the Director-General of the Royal Shipyards himself. I believe that the formation of bicameral designs like a dedicated air defense vessel based on the Duchy-class heavy cruiser hull is just a small step, but of high significance nevertheless, to a greater era in Kahanistanian military history. Maybe one day, the ties between the United Kingdom of Isselmere-Nieland and the Democratic Soviet Republic of Kahanistan shall become close enough that one can see the prominent figure of a Europa-class nuclear-powered command battleship or a Jimnam-class sitting in the Al-Bahr docks, Admiral Nazmareh."

Then he turned toward to President Valens in his polite manner. "However, and in speaking of friendships and alliances, I can tell you why the United Sovereign Nations has only fought in one war - the Southeast Asia/Joint Conglomerates Conflict, and has thus kept enemies at bay - diplomacy. While I understand you do wish to protect your country from hostile nations like Parthia and Doomingsland, you do have to take care of your internal dilemmas, so I feel that reducing spending on defense wasn't an easy decision, but it would be better in the long run for either way. As your administration is now spending on education as it's primary source of funding, you may wish to start forging better courses in Diplomacy and International Relations so that future Kahanistanian leaders won't have to deal with war as often. Southeast Asia can offer cultural exchange treaties, and my nation can introduce you to other nations which have good diplomats and can prove to be worthy allies."

The President had briefly re-entered the conference. "I am sure that the Admiral would be more than willling to organize war-games with your nation... while I would prefer to go against a nation with more experience in warfare, I will defer to the Admiral's judgment if she cannot find the time to coordinate with other nations."

"As for the diplomacy courses, I fully support improvements to our diplomatic agencies, but that is an issue for another meeting... you may wish to contact our Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dr. Margaret Delray. I am sure she will be glad to hear your diplomats' ideas for other methods of diplomacy."

Nazmareh smiled. "When would be an appropriate time for the wargames? I would be available for this most of the time, we aren't getting the action we used to be getting. It isn't like I'll be going off to war anytime soon..."

"The Southeast Asian Navy could organize a joint military exercise with the Republic Navy in one or two months' time at the maximum, and a few weeks at the minimum, after this conference has been completed and done over with." Nettleton responded, "in roughly the same reasonabletime period as the Republic Navy's exercises with the Incorporated Sarzonian Navy and the Royal Isselmere-Nielander Navy, it could be roughly done around that time, along with those two Woodstock Pact member-nations."

"The Southeast Asian Navy could organize a joint military exercise with the Republic Navy in one or two months' time at the maximum, and a few weeks at the minimum, after this conference has been completed and done over with." Nettleton responded, "in roughly the same reasonabletime period as the Republic Navy's exercises with the Incorporated Sarzonian Navy and the Royal Isselmere-Nielander Navy, it could be roughly done around that time, along with those two Woodstock Pact member-nations."
"We don't even know that the Sarzonians or Isselmere-Nielanders will agree to conduct exercises with us yet. I of course would be available almost any time until another war breaks out, as would much of the Naval Command. We are available for wargaming whenever you are," said Admiral Nazmareh.

"Of course, I would like to hear what the Woodstock Pact member nations would have to say about our navy." She was seemingly resigned to the fact that the Sarzonians and their ilk knew far more about naval warfare than she did.

OOC: Bumping prior to an OOC/IC response later tonight (ca. 5-12 hours from now).

OOC: Proposed Sianach-class destroyer leader (DLGN)

Sianach-class DLGN
Displacement: 15,310 t (std.); 17,671 t (nom.); 19,559 t (full)
Dimensions: Length 216m (wl), 221.09m (oa); beam 22m; draught 6.75m.
Propulsion: 4-propulsor CONOD-IFEP; INNEC RA(PW)-11S supercritical pressurised water fission reactor with 2 auxiliary multi-fuel generators (IMW MMD-31) 175 MW (CAGN) = 35+ kts.
Crew: 340 (peacetime); 550 (wartime) (+ vehicle crew, marines (platoon), staff (40)); can accommodate 700.
Protection: (Main belt) 210 mm; (Main turrets): 210 mm; (Main barbettes): 203 mm; (Main missile magazines): 76 mm; (Hangar): 51 mm; (Deck (key spaces)): 76 mm; (Conning tower, CIC): 51 mm; (Bulkhead): 51 mm.
Compartmentalisation: double-hulled, reinforced keel, with 24 transverse and 2 longitudinal bulkheads.
Weapons:
AAW: 6 × GWLS.66M2, 5 × GWLS.68M2, 2 × MCA.72 35mm autocannon (p/s)
ASuW: 4 × 210mm rail guns (A, B, X, Y; RAIN)
ASW: 2 × 3 324mm TT (p/s)
GP: 2 × 36-cell GWLS.58M2 (f/a) (equivalent of 2 × 144-cell GWLS.35M2 launchers)
MCM: 2 × UCA.45S 30mm RST (500 SCR/RST).
Vehicles:
Capable of deploying and recovering 2 Cormorant HM.1-sized helicopters, 2 Cuttlefish DSR.1, and a Parrot DES.1 or 2 Rook DRA.1 UMAVs (none included in price); equipped with the "beartrap" helicopter recovery system (aircraft hangared in fantail; one elevator, one helicopter landing spot), and two lightweight EM catapults for Rooks (only so equipped if drones are purchased).
Electronics suite:
Computer complex: MEI.5 Muninn (ISOMS)
Threat management systems: MEQ.181 NAIADS (anti-air), MEQ.185 SELKIE (anti-torpedo), MEX.193 MITRE (target recognition), MDQ.261 (signature self-detection)
Radars: MRU.113 Huginn (multifunction search and tracking), MRN.116 Beluga (navigation), MRS.118 Kafka (volume search), MRS.164 Hofvarpnir (surface search), 3 × MRG.182 Balmung (gunnery fire control)
Optronics: MSU.124 Adder (long range multifunction), MSS.127 Owl (surface surveillance)
Combination radar/optronics: MSW.133 Tuesday (helicopter landing system), 4 × MSG.183 Gjallar (close range fire control)
Sonars: MQU.134 Fenris (keel-mounted, LF), MQR.145 Herring (variable depth)
ECM/ESM: MLR.165 (emissions receiver and direction finder), MLQ.177 (jammer), MLR.184 Nott (laser warning receiver and direction finder), MWD.199 (signals direction finder)
Communications: JSC.17(V)2 Godi (Link 17.2; secure datalink), MPC.190 (laser communications system), MRC.178 (secure communications system), MSC.121 Alvis (secure satellite communications system), MSW.123(V)2 Gna (Link 17.2D; secure drone control datalink), 2 × MSW.125(V)2 Ran (Link17.2G; secure missile guidance datalink), 4 × NQC.22(V)2 Dvalin (Link 17.2U; encrypted acoustic modem), NSC.196M (encrypted burst communications transceiver).
Countermeasures: 4 × MLQ.135 Mackerel (anti-torpedo), 6 × MLE.140 MUSE (anti-missile).
Cost: $1920 million
Production time: 5.25 years
Production capacity: 16 ships

An alternative configuration uses 4 × 210mm rail gun vertical gun systems, permitting 1/3 more VLS.

[OOC: Is the proposed design a trimaran or monohull, Isselmere? And do you plan on having your navy help Kahanistan's like my MoD offered?]

[OOC: Single-hulled. In all honesty, I have no time for a massive RP at present, or likely in the near future.]

The Kahanistanian Fleet Admiral looked over the specifications. "Interesting..." The Admiral's facial expression gradually darkened. "Railguns... these weapons are far beyond our technical capacity, we have advanced somewhat in electro-thermal chemical technology, but railguns are still far off for us."

"As for the rest of the ship, this is a quite formidable warship. I would use them if the technology was closer to what our fleet crews are comfortable with, the ETC is, from my understanding, not very complicated and certainly not as high-maintenance as a railgun. Then again, I'm no engineer..."

"The rail gun turrets could be replaced by 203 mm ETC turrets -- 210 mm is a peculiar calibre, whilst the 203 mm gun, being a relatively common calibre, offers a wider range of ammunition choices. A vertical gun ETC version of the 203 mm guns could also be designed, but such systems tend to work better with electromagnetic propulsion; that is, rail guns. Otherwise, the specifications would remain the same."

"This design is acceptable to me," said the Admiral.

The Defense Minister looked over the file. "I agree... the ETC won't force us to make major technological advances and we can refit it later, when our technological level improves."

A destroyer leader eh? thought the Southeast Asian Minister of Defense to himself, revealing nothing to the exterior. Looks like the student became the teacher. The thought was semi-jokingly refering the the Mahan-class xebec of the Portland Iron Works of the Incorporated States of Sarzonia.

Then Nettleton noticed something about the specifications and the general trend of the RSIN designs: they were mostly monohulled (save a few like the Kingdom-class heavy battleship and the Jimnam-class 'pocket superdreadnaught' and the Europa-class heavy command battleship, to use Isselmere-Nielander nomenclature). So he decided to ask the Kahanistanis what were their stances on monohulls and trimarans.

"I note that the general trend of the Royal Shipyards is often that of using primarily monohulls, while on the other hand, their Sarzonian friends in the Portland Iron Works, tend to use trimaran-hulls." spoke Nettleton to the Kahanistanis, and in particular the Minister of Defense and Republic Admiral. "What does the KRN think of monohulled ships and trimaran-hulled ships?"

"Historically, the Republic Navy has largely used monohulls, simply because we lack expertise at designing our own warships, and the ones we had access to were mainly monohulls. However, I personally prefer the more durable trimarans, and I'm sure most of Naval Command agrees with me," said Admiral Nazmareh. "I find that the Union-class carriers are hard to sink, but the trimaran design is most useful on such vessels as heavy battleships, super dreadnaughts, and arsenal ships."

The Admiral's cell phone rang. "Excuse me." She pulled it out and answered. "Nazmareh. Yes... I'm aware of the deployments to Jagada. Yes, I know there's a chance I may have to command a fleet. Thank you... thank you."

The Kahanistanian fleet commander closed her cell. "There is a chance that I may have to leave soon. If that happens, I hope that the Defense Minister can field your questions, although she isn't much of a naval commander."

"Southeast Asian doctrine regarding trimarans is that we tend to favor them for speed issues and also for the use of greater amounts of space." responded Nettleton, briefly nodding before he spoke to acknowledge the Admiral's (possible) departure. "The history of the trimaran hull, especially with regards to naval warfare, was explored by the British Royal Navy with the RV Triton (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/trimaran/) as the 'guinea-pig' for Great Britain's Future Surface Combatant (http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Today/fsc.htm) project. It was discovered that while effective, there were also drawbacks with trimaran-hulls - such as manueverability and docking, as they tend to be wider than a monohull."

Beyond that, there are also drawbacks to trimaran-hulls." Nettleton raised up his dominant (right) hand, and started counting.

They tend to be more expensive to construct.
Larger surface area for the warship, equates bigger target.
They tend to have problems entering narrow passes.
They are more difficult to armor than monohulled warships.
And finally, they are more expensive to maintain as they are to construct.

"And yes, I agree with you, Madam, that it is indeed better to reserve a trimaran hull for the more heavier of your power-tossers like heavy battleships and heavy fleet carriers. After all, there is only so much a monohull can do with regards to being in such a role as a heavy battleship or an amphibious assault flagship like the Marquess-class of the Royal Shipyards."

Artur Devlán, who had been silent for quite a while, decided to speak up again, "The Empire has had several experiments with the trimaran hull, but almost all of our newer ships are monohull. Stability issues in the high seas, for example, force us to lean towards the monohull, as well as the fact that you can mount thicker armour onto the monohull, given the reduced surface area of the ship. We were planning to conduct an experiment on a ship named the Vic de Chassenay, but due to the lack of time we weren't able to. Hopefully, after the battle of Pir-Sar we can conduct the experiment anyways. The idea was to see the space between the outer riggers as a spacing in the armour of the monohull, armouring the outer rigger enough to break the ballistic cap of incoming rounds. Technically, the explosive should also go off, failing to harm the inner hull, however, in the high seas we questioned the ability of a trimaran being able to make it home lacking an entire rigger! If we do mount it on the Vic de Chassenay then we'll see how such a design works on a littoral ship."

He paused for a second, took a sip of water from the glass in front of him and then continued, "That said, the Empire is surely going back to monohulls, and in fact, all of our super dreadnaught replacements are monohulled heavy dreadnaughts in between 300,000mtn and 600,000mtn. But this is for the future. As of now it seems the Empire is focusing on the army, as opposed to the navy."

General Kasagawa nodded. "It seems we've finished discussion of how to prepare the navy... now let us shift our attention back to the land and air forces... many of our enemies have heavy UCAV's capable of inflicting devastating damage to military and civilian centers... while we are in the process of developing an air-defense system resistant to standard SEAD, many of our leaders are reluctant to place air defenses over civilian populations... on the one hand, we want to protect our people, but on the other hand, we make them legitimate targets for attack if we try to protect them. I don't know what to do, I was appointed as a commander, not as a diplomat. My loyalty is to the people, then to international law..."

"Current policy is to move in mobile AA only after an attack on a civilian population, but that leads to political recriminations later..."

"Finally, in the event that the enemy gains air and / or naval supremacy," said the Defense Minister, "we need to totally revise our doctrine in that area, historically Kahanistanian military thinkers did not consider such a possibility, even after the Freekish invasion."

"Be pragmatic." responded Nettleton politely. "While the enemy may not neccessarily be the warmongering absolutist society that the Democratic Soviet Republic seems to have frequent clashes with, it is never wrong to take precautions. However, I believe that the Kahanistani Armed Forces are capable of constructing bunker facilities for their civilian populace and issuing warnings and notices for air-raids, is it not?"

"Now, as for enemy naval dominance or air supremacy, or both, against the DSRK....we in Southeast Asia would do whatever possible to regain one of those factors, but if we cannot win conventionally, we would go to alternate battle plans and ways of winning, especially when against an occupying enemy faction." Nettleton paused to take a sip of his water, then put the glass down. "We have had a history of doing so, Admiral."

The Admiral nodded her head. "I see. I also see that further discussion of naval tactics is fruitless until we have trained for these contingencies in a series of wargames."

The Defense Minister nodded in agreement. "We should try to schedule them for sometime in the next two weeks. Now, back to defenses..."

"We already have bunkers for our civilian population, heavy defenses around our water supplies, and decentralized water purification units to prevent the enemy from poisoning the water. The trouble is that enemy forces have no limit of bunker busters to use against them, some with incendiary ordnance to consume the oxygen. This is what led to the failure of our defenses in the last invasion."

"Most of those bunkers were about 50 meters below ground, we have since expanded to 400 as a minimum."