NationStates Jolt Archive

The Argentine 1st Strike fleet had left Gallegos three weeks prior.

Steaming directly west, the fleet had slowly curled and weaved through the New Guinea territories, sweeping south-west.

Now, they sat around 500km off the coast of Australia, approximately 12 miles north of the east-west line of Perth.

Using GPS targeting, they selected their targets. The naval base of Perth, and the auxillary ships docked there.

On command, the Russian ships, types 1166 and 1144 ripple-launched their SS-N-12 Sandbox cruise missiles, as did the Korean designed KDX-II destroyers, but in their case it was Tomahawk cruise missiles.

Already moving north, the Argentine fleet continued to fire their naval cruise missiles.

All in all, 134 cruise missiles would streak towards the coast at a height of around 300 feet in a bee-line. It took only a couple of minutes to pass that distance, before they would begin to land at GPS-designated targets.

Targeting:

Auxillary ships (Such as Australia's few, precious resupply ships) are targeted by 34 missiles while they sit at their docks.
Port facilities are targeted by 40 missiles.
Drydocks are targeted by 20 missiles.
The naval airfield at Perth is targeted by 25 missiles.
A nearby "TDP" facility (Complete or under construction?) is targeted by 15 missiles.


After the strike is complete, the Argentine fleet will steam north towards the Indonesian islands, the LaFayette class frigates openly scanning the sky for unfriendly targets. All ASW helicopters are deployed, but since Australia's submarines are based out of Darwin, there's no chance for an encounter with them.

OOC: I'd like to take this moment to point out some things. Australia's only missiles capable of intercepting cruise missiles are up by Darwin, and consist of some Patriot PACII batteries. Australia doesn't really have much in the way of ship=detecting radars, and since the LaFayette class frigates are the only ones that got within 300km of the coast, it's highly unlikely they could possibly be detected. (The LaFayette is one of the first 'stealth' ships)

OOC: I'd like to take this moment to point out some things. Australia's only missiles capable of intercepting cruise missiles are up by Darwin, and consist of some Patriot PACII batteries. Australia doesn't really have much in the way of ship=detecting radars, and since the LaFayette class frigates are the only ones that got within 300km of the coast, it's highly unlikely they could possibly be detected. (The LaFayette is one of the first 'stealth' ships)

OOC: Now who is godmodding?

Listen, you have no idea what he has as far as military capability. The year is 2008(9)... that's 2-3 years down the road. The chances are good that if Australia was making an attack on Somalia, they would prepare to defend their frigates from missiles. Especially in the world we live in that is quite tipsy and dangerous.

Australia has whatever Asbena wants them to have (within reason), because he's had a lot of time to prepare for this attack.

OOC: Now who is godmodding?

Listen, you have no idea what he has as far as military capability. The year is 2008(9)... that's 2-3 years down the road. The chances are good that if Australia was making an attack on Somalia, they would prepare to defend their frigates from missiles. Especially in the world we live in that is quite tipsy and dangerous.

Australia has whatever Asbena wants them to have (within reason), because he's had a lot of time to prepare for this attack.

OOC: He hasn't roleplayed the aqusition of anything. At all. Standard rules of roleplaying dictate that you roleplay the aqusition of gear/equipment. Otherwise, we're going to have people magically conjuring up planes, soldiers and ships.

OOC: He hasn't roleplayed the aqusition of anything. At all. Standard rules of roleplaying dictate that you roleplay the aqusition of gear/equipment. Otherwise, we're going to have people magically conjuring up planes, soldiers and ships.

yeah... but you can't just say because he hasn't role played he has nothing... that violates the rules even further, because it's godmodding to say what another person (country) has.

yeah... but you can't just say because he hasn't role played he has nothing... that violates the rules even further, because it's godmodding to say what another person (country) has.

OOC: That might be true if we were using NS nations. We're using REAL 21st century nations though. Like, Nigeria couldn't just say.. "I have nuclear aircraft carriers!" in this setting. Until you ROLEPLAY aquiring new stuff, you use what the real-world country has.

OOC: Bump. Even though it's being ignored anyway.

OOC:
I never do anything without having the hard stats for stuff. In the case of Australia I use the government budget and the military percentage of that (although I have increased it to 15% because of the upcoming war), but I don't have things 'out-of-proportion' or anything. 350 ships (INCLUDING LOGISTICS) is barely a threat for a nation of the west, and also don't forget about 80 of them are CARGO SHIPS. Ships that will unload food, water and other things such as building materials into Somalia to rebuild and reconstruct the area under a unified government and eliminate all the health problems that plague it!

You are acting STUPIDLY for Argentina. The REAL Argentina doesn't give a damn about Somalia and would probably be behind Australia in an attempt to fix and correct it so that it doesn't remain a third-world nation that is a 'failed-state'. Not even the Somalian people would really fight about this, if someone offered you a better life, better food, longer health span and SAFETY all for the simple cost of working for it under an Australian controlled government that meets the needs of all people, who would be against it.

Now Xeno, you didn't even declare war and your nation isn't exactly high-tech either, but considering you think I have the stupid Australian military of a pre-planned attack, you wouldn't actually check up on my nation would you? Would you like some hard numbers to make you sit down, shut up, and see that we're doing a good thing, that the USA didn't want to back when things got hard and pulled out?

I never do anything without having the hard stats for stuff. In the case of Australia I use the government budget and the military percentage of that (although I have increased it to 15% because of the upcoming war), but I don't have things 'out-of-proportion' or anything. 350 ships (INCLUDING LOGISTICS) is barely a threat for a nation of the west, and also don't forget about 80 of them are CARGO SHIPS. Ships that will unload food, water and other things such as building materials into Somalia to rebuild and reconstruct the area under a unified government and eliminate all the health problems that plague it!

You are acting STUPIDLY for Argentina. The REAL Argentina doesn't give a damn about Somalia and would probably be behind Australia in an attempt to fix and correct it so that it doesn't remain a third-world nation that is a 'failed-state'. Not even the Somalian people would really fight about this, if someone offered you a better life, better food, longer health span and SAFETY all for the simple cost of working for it under an Australian controlled government that meets the needs of all people, who would be against it.

Now Xeno, you didn't even declare war and your nation isn't exactly high-tech either, but considering you think I have the stupid Australian military of a pre-planned attack, you wouldn't actually check up on my nation would you? Would you like some hard numbers to make you sit down, shut up, and see that we're doing a good thing, that the USA didn't want to back when things got hard and pulled out?

OOC: Don't have to declare war. Nor am I exactly using "high-tech" equipment. Most of it is Russian and French equipment from the 90s. The KDX are Korean, 2nd generation guided missile destroyers.

Sure...whatever, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and since you seem content...let's keep it that way.

OOC: Just waiting for an IC response of some sort.

OOC: Are you really that hell-pressed on starting WWIII? I think OOC reasons are the reason of this conflict and I have every right to ignore you unless you can prove ICly that my nation has done something worthy of starting an undeclared war on me with no motive or anything to back such things, while OOC anger is clearly overwhelming.

OOC: Are you really that hell-pressed on starting WWIII? I think OOC reasons are the reason of this conflict and I have every right to ignore you unless you can prove ICly that my nation has done something worthy of starting an undeclared war on me with no motive or anything to back such things, while OOC anger is clearly overwhelming.

OOC: Your country is -invading- another country in Africa. Technically, the UN needed to shut that down the second it happened. But I think we can all agree, the UN isn't being played realisticly right now. UN won't act. USA won't act. Other major nations won't act. So, someone else has to.

So you're going to go right to the heart of Australia's military center and shut it down? Conviently when I was building the entire heart of my military center and modernizing with a massive budget that dwarfs your own considerably. In fact by 21.5 times that of your own?

If you go through with this, Australia will be invading YOU for this and you'll be crushed and destroyed, and oh ya...I'll pull my weight around to make sure that your nation is reduced to being a protectorate at the least for such a fool-hardy attack on my bases. Also a TDP plant will be gone in just ONE direct hit, and by doing so, you'll awake the 'sleeping' UN for environmental attacks. Its akin to blowing up a nuclear power plant to 'shut down the enemies power supply' when it causes a global threat. It is not a target to consider hitting with cruise missiles anyways!

So you're going to go right to the heart of Australia's military center and shut it down? Conviently when I was building the entire heart of my military center and modernizing with a massive budget that dwarfs your own considerably. In fact by 21.5 times that of your own?

If you go through with this, Australia will be invading YOU for this and you'll be crushed and destroyed, and oh ya...I'll pull my weight around to make sure that your nation is reduced to being a protectorate at the least for such a fool-hardy attack on my bases. Also a TDP plant will be gone in just ONE direct hit, and by doing so, you'll awake the 'sleeping' UN for environmental attacks. Its akin to blowing up a nuclear power plant to 'shut down the enemies power supply' when it causes a global threat. It is not a target to consider hitting with cruise missiles anyways!

OOC: My list of target stands. So does the mission. I'm not going to get into an argument in this thread, but as it is now, all Australia would know is that they just got their major military naval bases (And a TDP plant) bombarded with 130-odd cruise missiles.

Just for the sake of correcting you with facts, as to the budget thing..

SOURCE: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/

Australia, GDP (purchasing power parity):
$642.7 billion (2005 est.)

Argentina, GDP (purchasing power parity):
$537.2 billion (2005 est.)

(Not really 21.5x times that of Argentina, now is it? ^.^)

OOC:
Fine. Though your military budget prohibits your 'reloading' of missile if it stands constant. Which is the whole point of my arguement. Not GDP, but BUDGET. If you haven't understood, then fine...I'll have to teach you the hard way to respect someone who PLANS ahead!

IC:
From the Newspaper:

"The state capital, Perth was suddenly attacked by Argentina's Cruise missile strike, without warning and without a reason. Such action and overkill of the naval base in its ENTIRETY. The famous naval base ceases to exist under the power of the cruise missile strikes and 6 ships are sunk in the process.

Among the losses:

Fleet Oiler (1)
Dual Stores Replenishment Vessel (1)
Armidale class patrol boat (3)
ANZAC class Frigate (1)

With the docks completely destroyed and the ships sinking, total losses of life to the naval base were estimated at around 1500. Though the number is expected to rise."

-------------------------------

The military of Australia had planned for such measures and during the inital build up phase had constructed other ports for use. The airbases at Moss, Venta and Colass have sent their FULL squadrons for an attack on the ships with their primary fighters (the F/A-18s). 600 planes from Melville Island will attempt to knock out and destroy the ships that launched a surprise attack on Perth from the north as the ships retreat northwards.

However it seems as if Argentina's planning would be their demise as the ships unknowingly raced towards Australia's military HEART. Five Collins class submarines rush forward, the enemy's ships having long since been detected by the naval forces of Melville Island. All now was to spring the trap and destroy the force as quickly as possible.

OOC: Take that.

OOC: Indonesia is .. Australia's "heart" of power? .. lol. Australia doesn't own a single port in Indonesia.

IC:

The Strike Fleet of course, steamed its way through the clustered islands of Indonesia. As noted, they have ASW helocopters deployed in full, and sensitive sonars and radars on the KDX and Orlan class ships were pounding the surrounding ocean with detection waves.

With all of the surface traffic (Tons.. and TONS of shipping goes through the Indonesian islands) a fleet so small would be pretty hard to pinpoint.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469932

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a128/Tanthan/Top5.jpg

You SURE about that?

Stop godmodding and take your destruction like a good little boy and pray I decide to spare your stupid military a slow and crushing defeat, because you just came right into Death's Grip!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469932

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a128/Tanthan/Top5.jpg

You SURE about that?

Stop godmodding and take your destruction like a good little boy and pray I decide to spare your stupid military a slow and crushing defeat, because you just came right into Death's Grip!

OOC: Melville is an island on the northern coast of Australia. It's not within 500 miles of central Indonesia. Forgive me by "godmodding" with my.. knowledge of geography.

OOC: ok... you two... calm down and play nice. This is a game. For fun. And you can't win an RP anyway. Just play and have fun... and co-operate with one another instead of making it tough on one another.

I'm not blaming either of all, all I'm saying is just have fun instead of making it personal... because if you don't then it won't be fun for anyone playing the 21c RP.

IC:

Israel condemns the attack by Argentina on Australia.

This unwarranted attack on one of our closest allies will not be tolerated. Israel will lobby the UN immediately to take diplomatic action against Argentina.

Two words: BLANTENT GODMODDING.

Geneticon thank you for being nice about this. Though I just launched a massive airstrike on him by my naval craft after he launched cruise missiles and is being a total godmodder, when his ships cross right infront of my range on everything.

Two words: BLANTENT GODMODDING.

Geneticon thank you for being nice about this. Though I just launched a massive airstrike on him by my naval craft after he launched cruise missiles and is being a total godmodder, when his ships cross right infront of my range on everything.

OOC: Name one of your weapons that can reach 500 miles out, and hit 1 target surrounded by hundreds of other targets. >_>

F/A-18 Hornet.

Pursued by submarines for chase and destroy as a secondary attack.

Edit: Oh ya.. hundreds of other targets? Explain.

F/A-18 Hornet.

Pursued by submarines for chase and destroy as a secondary attack.

Edit: Oh ya.. hundreds of other targets? Explain.

OOC: Hornets are fine. You didn't RP them searching for my fleet or anything though. You just said.. "They're sent out." how do I reply to that?

As to submarines.. well dude, subs are way slower than surface ships. With a good headstart, there's just no way subs are gonna catch up.

As to other targets.. Indonesian islands have several major shipping routes between Australia and Asia, and South America and Asia. North American shipping goes straight across the ocean to Asia. - By other targets.. I mean you're going to have to figure out a way to tell the difference between my ships and the merchant ships out there. The best way might be to use your Hornets to search visually.. but that is hugely risky because Argentina is going to be blowing the crap out of any military craft that get within 40 miles.

Read my post again. You are choosing to ignore my posts, continue this and I am speaking to a mod about this.

/ooc Here are some area maps for you guys to use. 2 sets. one is what it seems like has happened here to an outsider. the other is a blank set if i got it wrong.

Google Earth FTW

My Guesses:
From Argentina
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth1Guess.gif
Crossing the pacific
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth2Guess.gif
Austrilia
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth3Guess.gif
Indonesia
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth4Guess.gif
This is just the oil trade through the area. its the only picture i could find. there are alot more going through the area tho.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/SUPER.jpg
Blanks
Same order

took the imagage links off of these.. for some reason it was showing the whole picture instead of the link.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth1.gif
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth2.gif
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth3.gif
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/dvader12/earth4.gif

Read my post again. You are choosing to ignore my posts, continue this and I am speaking to a mod about this.

OOC: All it says is, 600 F-18s are attacking. How are they attacking? with what strategy? With what weapons? (PS: I don't think even the US Navy has 600 F/A Hornets dude.. that's a LOT)

Same here. Large pictures, nice. Though size distorts screen for me. :o

So there is no way he can attack from the other side of Australia without running into my forces nor can he escape.

Same here. Large pictures, nice. Though size distorts screen for me. :o

So there is no way he can attack from the other side of Australia without running into my forces nor can he escape.

OOC: ... That is, if you ignore any common sense. >_>

OOC: Forgive me for intruding, but sometimes a completely unaffiliated party is best in these situations.

For starters. The Xeno, you underestimate the ability of your ships to be detected. You're Lafeyettes are "openly scanning the skies for unfriendly targets." Stealth or no stealth, ACTIVE EMISSIONS GIVE AWAY YOUR POSITION. So, the Australians know where those ships are, and which ones are combat vessels. They can also figure out the range that the main fleet was at based on the missile types. You dramatically overestimate your cover there.
A fleet that large is also not going to be able to approach an important naval base so closely without being detected, particularly if it belongs to someone with a potentially antagonistic relationship. The Australians still have several means of noticing your ships, including HUMINT and SATINT. And don't think there wouldn't be radio traffic from civilian vessels regarding your ships' position and launches. If not announced before then, their skippers will be rightly cautious and fearful, especially if they're, well, Australian.

And now for the real killer: Australia happens to now have not one, but two types of OTH-B radar arrays (SECAR (http://www.abc.net.au/ra/innovations/stories/s1089011.htm) and JORN (http://defence-data.com/features/fpage37.htm)). SECAR is a coastal unit good to about 370 km, and JORN goes out to 3000, including multiple sites and tasked with, among other things, catching smugglers. Guess what they cover? That's right, the entire route you weaved around New Guinea, the shipping lanes through Indonesia (in fact, all the way out to the western tip of Java). You'd have been noticed bub, and LONG before you launched. The claim of using a shipping route as cover is invalidated by the fact that all such ships would have their routes registered. Unregistered contacts would have been investigated, and this would have happened long before you got close enough to launch. Even if you were ignorant of this, you godmodded in a big way. Even if you got off a shot, he knows exactly where all your ships are, and will for at least a full day. Lafayettes also won't escape detection from OTH-B.

The current Australian air force has three combat-capable aircraft types: The F/A-18, the F-111G, and the P-3C. All of these can easily strike your ships when equipped with Harpoon missiles (which they all can be). The P-3, and to a lesser extent, the F-111G, are actually both capable of coming back and doing it again many times before your fleet gets out of their range.

On another note, while I won't pretend to know everything about this since I'm not a participant, I don't see how the Argentine Navy could have possibly been expanded that much in that short a time. Argentina would need a huge spending increase and over half a decade to get a navy that size with that kind of global deployment capability (even if bought from Russia), and frankly, the nation can't really afford it. In fact, Argentina is not in a position, either financially or politically, to be seriously involved in events beyond its region.

In budget, Australia is better off because of a proportionally small military and high GDP. Argentina is weak (consider it has over 20 times the population yet still not much higher of a GDP), and can't afford to spend as much of its budget on military, especially for foreign operations. It's needed at home more.

And finally, Patriot batteries are quite mobile. If he wants one or two to have been moved there, that's not much of a stretch.

On the Other hand, you are correct. The US Navy only has about 480 F/A-18s (including E/F model). However, the Marine Corps does have another 265 of them . . .
Either way, 600 is a lot and I don't really agree with that part.



Now, on the other hand:
Asbena, you did skimp on your posts. I would have made at least some allusion to locating the ships using one means or another, and your budget can't be 21 times his. Argentina has actually planned for a military budget of up to $9.8 billion, which is actually higher than Australia's.
You were also a bit wrong in saying he was acting stupidly. Maybe he was, but don't throw out insults like that. Leave it to the other guy. The threats could have been avoided too. You may have been the victim of inappropriate actions, but don't fall into the trap and sink to the same level. But yes, you could have easily ignored this.

Also, he is correct in that unless your subs are already in a position to intercept his fleet, they won't succeed. Though he's wrong on the speed issue (subs are quite capable of matching surface ships in that area), the Collins, being a AIP/diesel-electric boat, is lacking in endurance, and you simply won't be able to get far enough fast enough because of that.

You also shouldn't be launching 600 Hornets (and where do they come from? Australia currently only has 71). I'm doubtful you could get that large a strike out that quickly anyway. Besides, a fraction of that would probably suffice if you're equipping Harpoons. And as mentioned, you should make some note of the weapons they're using and tactics (if you know of any). For a Harpoon, you just need some high-altitude spotters to find and track the ships while staying outside air defense range, and just get those harpoons in within 150-200 km (the closer the better), and send them on their way. Also strike from multiple directions if possible.

Yes, CSJ, you're right. I just accepted his stupid attack out of fairness, even though I would have destroyed them if I was at IC war with him. Why I let it slide, I don't know.

For the stats I was refering to the CIA World Factbook military budget of Argentina which was listed at a mere 4 bil. With my modified budget plan for a military attack on Somalia I took back the tax cuts and rebates for Australia to fund this little operation as so:


Australian Budget: 249.8 billion
Australian Military Budget: 16.65 Bil in 04
Percent of Budget: 2.7%

Australian Budget: 300 Billion
Australian Military Budget: 92.5 Bil in 07+
Percent of Budget: 15%

Total 3 year expendures on military budget for Operation Humanity: 277.5 Billion.
This is 5.5 times MORE then the previous budget for the military in previous years. Totaling a 16.6 total increase in budget over the three year period when compared to a regular three year period.

Also I have eluded to the construction of the three air-fields which would in three years support the full aircraft needed for this strike. Although at a high 38 mil a piece it was worth the budget to defend the key point to an enemy attack and the range was more then worth it for if I ever desired a push into Indonesia. Though its safe to say that my rapid military building (although less then perfectly posted is possible, just to shut him up, I'll also post the 360 ships being used in Operation Humanity, since its convient now.)

Tobruk Class Ships: 15
Kanimbla class Landing Platform Amphibious: 100
Balikpapan class Landing Craft Heavy: 45
Guided Missile Frigates: 5
Submarines: 5

Submarine Tenders: 3
Nimitz-class Aircraft Carrier: 1
Naval Command Ship: 1
Battleships: 10
AEGIS Radar ships: 5
Patrol boats: 60

Cargo Ships: 70
Fleet Suppliers/Oil Tankers: 20
Troop Logistics Supplies: 20

*Sigh* I wish this STAYED a RP between me and the NPC nation, but since Argentina wants to start something I have to reveal my otherwise perfectly structured fast-build and slowly changing style of Australian forces.

Excellent post by a respected member who knows his stuff.... thank you for helping Clan Smoke.

I agree totally.

You know what Argentina....I'll do that before your stupid godmodding surprise attack if you try it. Do it right or they are gone already. If you want to play it...you'll be destroyed, if you don't then I conquer Somalia on my own and proceed into Africa on my mission.

Your choice, do or die.

OOC: There is no way Argentina would be able to pull this off, without getting blasted by Australian forces. Australian planes, though probably not submarines, would be able to catch the Argentinian force and most likely hurt it severly.

Though also, there is no way Australia could put 600 FA/18's in the air since even the US would not be able to get 600 planes in the air this fast and concentrated, even though Australia's military budget has increased by a factor of 5.5 to 15% of the total budget. Also, I find the military budget of 15% a little hard to believe since this is way higher than any other country with an anywhere close to decent economy(the military of the US takes up 3.3% of the total budget and China's military takes up about 4% of their total budget), and since the military budget increased by 75.85 billion dollars it would take up all of the new money going into the Australian budget since 2004 to fund it, and would still need to take some 25 billion dollars from other sources(basically I don't see how this increase could be possible for Australia). One more thing is that Australia would not be able to support a cost of 277.5 billion for Operation Humanity(which is at least what it would take, if not more, since Iraq cost the US some 200 billion dollars and that was one country). The annual cost of this would be the same as Australia's current military budget, so I don't see where the funding from this is coming from. Iraq totally cost the US about 200 billion dollars which is almost half of the annual budget of the US military, and the US was struggling for money to pay for the expenses of the war. The cost of this war, which if it still will include all of the African countries previously mentioned by Asbena, is underestimated and even the current cost would bankrupt the Australian government.

You know what Argentina....I'll do that before your stupid godmodding surprise attack if you try it. Do it right or they are gone already. If you want to play it...you'll be destroyed, if you don't then I conquer Somalia on my own and proceed into Africa on my mission.

Your choice, do or die.

[ooc: that is totally out of character...

honestly, everyone is acting like this is the 17th century... MODERN WARS ARE NOT THAT COMMON...AND THEY COST A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN WHAT YOU GUYS THINK!!!

First off, someone already mentioned this, but you really need a lot, a lot, a lot of public support for a military action of any kind [even the secret ones] or you're going to face a lot of dissent at home. Just look at the USA in its Iraq invasion...moderate public support that suddenly crashed and now the country has a practically immobilized military structure...

Secondly, it takes a lot of time into preparing an invasion...logistics, communication, MOST IMPORTANTLY CASUS BELLUM [i.e. a reason], and a lot of public support. You may send your military out, but they won't do a damned thing if they haven't gotten their supplies in order, their targets, their objectives, and blah [something that I think Xeno has actually done - or at least made an attempt to prove]. You need a really communication with your commanders, your subordinates, your bureaucracy, your people, and most importantly your allies - attacking in the blind gets little done, and you can wonder why Mogadishu didn't turn out worse than it did. And I'll say this again, YOU NEED CASUS BELLUM. Otherwise, you're just invading for the sake of invading, and that's just plain stupid, no matter who you are. Alexander invaded Persia to punish them for their incursions against the Greeks. Caesar invaded Gaul to protect Rome. Napoleon invaded Europe to bring peace to Europe. The USA invaded Mexico [1846] to protect the rights of Americans in the West. The Germans invaded France [1914] to destroy Russia's ally and turn the tide of war against them in support of their allies in Austria. And the list can go on...basically, there was a reason for most military campaigns - otherwise, you get a mess. And I can't emphasize this enough [although it isn't the most important thing] - YOU NEED PUBLIC SUPPORT. You'll be fighting more than one war if you ignore the public will of the people in your country. And I can grant it - you will have opposition in all of your countries [especially Asbena and Xeno], and it would be a serious godmod to say "My people like what I'm doing." You might have a casus bellum, but it'll get little ways if your people don't agree with you.

For that reason, all of the wars that have started in this thread have been practically stupid - especially Australia's invasion of Africa. Brazil at least does the service of creating a real problem that a nation would go to war over [i.e. terrorism] and I can understand why Argentina might attack Australia [although why he's attacking isn't probably for the same reason that I'm thinking]. But in all, war is not a game that you can play. There's so much emphasis on the killing, but reasonably, you can't have a world that totally in it for the war. People don't like war, and you'd be immensely insane if you thought otherwise. War scars people like nothing else - it's probably the only time humans actually get out with the intention to kill another human and to develop technology to help those people kill other people. It's an insanity - a legacy of our insane history of conquest and domination.

People might complain about the feasibilty of certain actions [launching a plane by surprise and attacking a fleet without notice, or suddenyl shifting your GDP into a complete military state], but in the end, it's all just plain stupid. I don't know what the others might say about this, but it's just plain stupid. If I ever saw Australia attacking Africa, I'd probably kill myself, because it's people's insanity that is going to ruin us as a human race. I just thank God that Bush isn't as psychotic as some of the people here [although I think it's more of ignorance than psychosis...]. But seriously, play this thing well, have fun, BUT BE REALISTIC. What's the cause behind all of this war ruckus? I can't see Argentina wanting to conquer Australia - they'd lose it all in a fortnight. Australia has nothing to gain from attacking Africa, especially since they have little means to sustain their logistics at that distance with the whole world in opposition [i.e. willing to quarantine Australia].

I just hope that you guys start maturing into something more reasonable than war-mongering mobs. I came to this thread to avoid war-mongering mobs, and I find myself in the same company. I seriously don't know if it's worth the pain to continue fighting the mob...

Just incase you haven't noticed, I've pretty much quit the 21c RP. I've roleplayed the aquisition of my fleet from several countries, and done it on about 3 years worth of Argentina's military budget. Still, appearently that wasn't good enough for some people.

(Even though Asbena has roleplayed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than his stupid invasion. Yet somehow he has 600 F-18 Hornets magically appear? I knew he'd do that. Which is why I originally went to great lengths to make notes about where Australia's military stood. Because I knew he'd magically conjur up more forces to defend himself with. He left himself completely open to attack. But since the mods from 21c won't step in and say "Hey dude, stop magically conjuring up forces", well, he can get away with it for just as long as he wants.)

He claims to have an AIRCRAFT CARRIER and AEGIS DESTROYERS .. yet people would rather say.. "Hey, how did Argentina get 15 year old ex-Soviet ships?" when I've clearly roleplayed their aqusition.

People are not playing the UN correctly. They would immedietly condemn an invasion of Africa, or ANY "humanitarian" efforts where tanks and fighting vehicles are taking over an entire country.

And when I ROLEPLAY out my fleet taking 3 weeks to MANUVER to Australia's west coast for the strike, then SPECIFICLY say that they are heading north-west away from the country into Indonesia, his only response is "HAHA YOU'RE MOVING RIGHT INTO MY HEART OF MILITARY POWER!" .. for the love of god dude, do some effing research.

Between his unrealistic play, peoples' refusal to reign him in, and improper RPing all around from half the members of the 21c game.. well, I've been sick of watching it slide further and further downhill each new day.

Like I said, I'm done with it. Have fun with your unrealistic BS, guys. This was supposed to be a real-world game, but as always, the idiots move in and turn it into just another NS earth.

OOC: Personally I think that you are acting like children, and need to mature a little, or quit the game. (no offense... but this is how it is coming off) Naktan is 100% right, I will stand by him and Sel Appa in this matter. 21C is not all about wiping out the world.

OOC - Argentina doesn't have La Fayette class ships, unless you bought them from France.
IC - Satellite images had detected a large Argentinian fleet movement towards Australia, images which shocked the British Gov't. Panavia Tornados F3's from No. 1435 Flight, based at RAF Mt Pleasant on the Falklands were at full alert, and were preparing for immediate action. A fleet containing HMS Illustrious, the RN's flagship which carried Harrier II GR9s, and the Type 45 Destroyers Daring, which is the most advanced and the most powerful air defence warship in the world, its revolutionary radar can track every aircraft for several hundred miles, as well as many other ships, made its way down to the Falklands, as the UK would do anything to defend its "children", just as they had come to the defense of their "mother" during her time of need. HMS Daring had been recently fitted with Storn Shadow cruise missiles which could be fired from Sylver launchers, and this would be the ideal time to test them in combat.

I've posted the changes and modifications to my budget and yes Australia is now in debt to this and I eliminated Australia's tax cuts to pay for this. I've had three years to prepare and listed the building of the bases earlier, and although not all are complete I can definately take out a nation who poses almost no military threat with a mere $19 mil per year on military, has barely any communication possible to counteract it.

I've been asking him before if he wants a list of the stuff and he says no. So now all my stuff is so scattered I can't even find it with the search function for all posts. That's how messed up it is.

Just forget this whole stupid thing. I'll redo the damn figures, but Xeno is being a total jerk and is bashing me ridiculously for a war with an NPC that Sel Appa clearly said needed only a conquest post and reason of it, then the outcome of the attack and what played out.

Edit: Oh ya...the war cost me $400 billion so far and yes it is bankrupting Australia. Just to put it into perspective.

I didn't PLAN for an attack by Xeno. This is really stupid, but ya. When I posted my changes to the budgets and the people, I can't even find the posts I did before with Gene. I know I posted I lost many of my bookmarks, but yes, they did have the hard numbers and I posted some in this thread (the ones I found). Along with the calculations and the link to my construction of the bases on Melville Island.