NationStates Jolt Archive

I hear a lot about NationStates changing. No positive changes, new players taking over old players and veterans disappearing. It's important to analyse several things before I can continue to my conclusion. Perhaps its a bit opinionated, but I think people will forgive me.

Before answering this burning question, it's important to ask ourselves what the changes are and what our/your position is in it. You can view this from an IC viewpoint (ie; the world) or OOCly where you look at individual players, groups or alliances or RP regions. Or even bigger, regional alliances. From this we can draw the following conclusion:
The individual > A roleplay group > A (possible) alliance > The regions (Imperial Armies, Atlantian Oceania, Haven, etc.) > A regional alliance (The Reich and Arda being METUS)
So far regional alliances have not yet banded together, maybe this happens in the invader game. If so, I'm not aware of it. What has this to do with II at present? Not much you say, but as I wandered through NS for a good while this part hasn't changed at all. This is all common sense: people make alliances to feel secure, to feel happy.

But is there such thing as a collective sense of security in NationStates, II to be exact?

No there isn't. A collective sense of security is a farce or a fairy tale in NationStates. And now I hear you saying: "Hold it right there mister, I'm in alliance ABC and XYZ. Those are pretty powerful as you might know." While I'm sure your alliances hold some degree of influence or even some power - note that power and influence in II are not the same - there are always more influential nations out there. Given that Knoot's power-wank theory is correct there can never be a super alliance. Having this in the back of one's head, you can only conclude there cannot be something such as a collective sense of security.

Every nation, when properly motivated and provided they are a roleplaying entity can perform an attack on a nation of their choice. Stripping away the possibility of godmod or bad RP, every attack has a chance to succeed. Saying you cannot be defeated in battle is pretentious. We can conclude the following from this:

A (2 billion) attacks B (2.5 billion). Using Knoot's theory there's little to no difference between the two nations. Both have a roughly equal chance to succeed in their mission. A wants B dead, and B wants to defeat A at his hometurf. A's campaign is working out very well, at the expense of B. B in the meantime has called for his allies. C, D and E (respectively 300 million; 1 billion and 700 million) add 50% chance of B's survival, so in the war the chances of A diminish with 25%. A (now he has to face B's allies) only has a 25% chance to succeed. B has gained significantly from this aid and has a 75% chance to defeat A. If A brings in allies, the balance shifts again. In theory, this can drag on and on forever.
Alliances are a balancing tool. Alliances stabalize, they are not a tool to win wars. Alliances are used as tools to exact pressure on nations. Alliances prevent nations from falling into a power vacuum. Alliances are a binding factor people sought and continue to seek.
But now I hear you saying "Well hold it again mister but I had a war some time ago where my alliance KO kicked H's ass so bad and blah blah blah." While I certainly believe H's ass got kicked to bits, may I remind you of several other more interesting facts that could have happened? H may have lacked allies. Was he on his own? Did his allies abandon him?
Internal disintegration? Maybe his nation was socially a total mess, hence why he lost. (àla Austria-Hungary in 1918)
Maybe he was planning to lose to add more flavor to the RP.
Maybe he willingly surrendered to save the lives of his citizens.There are legion reasons why nations lose wars. Perhaps he could've lasted ages fighting a guerrilla conflict, but H chose not to. With H defeated, the alliance KO is growing in influence. People join, other alliances (and therefore other nations as well) watch with growing alarm how KO grows.

At one point it gets too much. Tensions break out between the alliance HAH and KO. HAH is an established power with both new and old nations alike. KO is new and still gains their prestige from the recent (yet petty) victory against H. KO somehow reckons they can make a bold move towards HAH. Since KO attracted the attention of several older anti-HAH nations, those move to KO, adding to KO's prestige.

Now we have a similar situation. Two alliances with roughly the same properties, nations and ideals. Both claim to fight for freedom (cliched I admit) and both are willing to sacrifice lives for the cause. HAH and KO go to war. And what nobody expected has happened: KO wins. What on earth is happening? A new alliance defeated an old established power! Can be the possible reasons: KO knew HAHs weaknesses. They exploited them to the full.
HAH thought it'd be an easy laid-back conflict with trophies of honor and glory awaiting at the end. In their world, they were thé power.
Strategic thinking. Perhaps KO knew where to strike hardest and what troops to use, in what formation or what-have-you.
Since this is a much bigger war, it is highly unlikely people will give up to add flavor to RPs.
Given the magnitude and size of this conflict, all matters about conscripts are irrelevant.
See point 2 of the first list.With KO being the single "power" in II, things change. The confused and weakened ex-HAH nations cannot band together since the basis of their former might - HAH - is gone. What can they do? Either listening to KO (their new taskmasters), who are also still busy licking their serious wounds. KO is also severely damaged, but is the victor. This leads us to the following conclusion we can draw.
Not a single nation after a war gets homefree without a scratch. Look at Italy after WW1. The bigger the war, the bigger the wounds. You cannot asume everything will be normal the days after the war. Soldiers have to be demobilized, the shift from a war economy to a peace economy. This takes time, money and effort.Now II is in a power vacuum after our supposed conflict. Nations do things randomly and aimless. There's a void which cannot be filled. I took war as an example, but it can also happen because of a dozen other reasons. People who remember the RWC NATO rivalry, know that at one point the seemingly solid NATO structure began to crumble under its own weight, while both alliances kept upping the pressure. Both wanted war, but it didn't happen. It was a powerkeg and both sides were throwing fuses at it. All of them missed, but with NATO gone, NWO fallen apart and the RWC has fallen into nothingness (while still existing) smaller alliances have formed. Some already existed, new ones formed.

The alliances of that time may no longer be around, but the two camps still exist. Many outsiders float around it like moths around a candle, and will tie to one another if the goings get tough or if all hell breaks loose. And now on to the million dollar question? What is the current state of II, if you take everything I presented to you? First we need to eliminate. All earths. Earths do not count as NS roleplaying. I don't care if Russia on E2 declares war on Panama. It adds nothing to NS roleplaying. Also includes AMW, W@W, off-site things et al.
Alternate history roleplays. The Punic Wars are indeed a very dramatic happening but what does it do to you and me? Not a damn thing.
Past tech and Future tech. Although the theories and conclusions I presented also apply on FT nations, the majority of II is (P)MT. This has always been the same.
Special themes such as computer games, industrial age or Mario Bros.
OOC threads. This one's obvious.
n00b stuff. Again, obvious.Good, when we look at II now we see a limited array of roleplays or roleplay related subjects passing the revue. But what do we see mostly? Technology threads, storefronts and announcements of alliances. Diplomatic talks to enforce existing alliances or to create new ones. What can we conclude from this?That there no such thing as a collective sense of security. If nations felt secure, they'd stop purchasing all sorts of high-tech goods. Many nations do not trust each other, dislike and even hatred reign supreme. The diplomatic talks are a pretense of security. Many young nations (below 1 billion) feel a serious lack of strength compared to the 4 and 5 billion titans. While big nations feel smug with their old establishments, those nations tend to lose track of their own identity - and weaknesses.The ultimate conclusion is - and brace yourself - NS hasn't changed at all. While there are many newer nations, it is important to note that the majority of NationStates doesn't roleplay. Of all the forum users, many are either in general or only post in the tech forums. Then there are nations who frequent NS and II (I'm one of them), or NS or II only players. The amount of players has remained pretty much the same. Players make II - II doesn't make players. The overall quality of roleplays has moved up. About II: this forum seems to be in a permanent state of Cold War. Not a single nation really trusts each other, there's always someone who might pull a trick on somebody else. And this has also remained pretty much the same since 2003. II is in a power vacuum: there is nobody to envy or to hate collectively. Ever since the days of the big alliances were numbered, nobody managed to unite their favourite camp again.

I expect to see the same thing for 2006.

Very nice. I think everyone should give this a read, although most won't follow it unfortunately.

Pretty nice. However, on the Earths I slightly disagree - Earths are a good way to introduce amateur RPers to roleplaying for one, and are enjoyed by a great deal of players

And here you already proved me right: they are good to introduce new players to earth roleplays in NS, not the world of NS itself. Outsiders cannot join an earth if their friend is in serious trouble on E3 or E4. And vice versa of course.

Pretty nice. However, on the Earths I slightly disagree - Earths are a good way to introduce amateur RPers to roleplaying for one, and are enjoyed by a great deal of players

Earths are Cloed and cliqueish. Not the best way to promote interaction between nations.

Viva le cold war!

What is wrong with the Non-Aligned super alliance of all nations that don’t get too involved in big wars (or with each other)? The third (Non-Aligned) world rules the world in NS, would you rather a large powerful groups tried to dominate all other nations?

On a more serious note the Earths closed nature makes them rather non ideal for introduction of new players.
Mini Miehm is right is saying that they don’t open up international lines.

Are you suggesting that this OOC thread be deleted?

Much the same thing has been occuring to me over the past year or so, and Guffingford has stated it very accurately.

I've been involved with NS for two years, and the differences between then and now are markedly noticable. Back in the day, there seemed to have been a lot more excitement and sense of accompishment with whatever type of thread was created, whether it be alliances, war, diplomacy, or social events. However, it seems now that a lot of (especially) the older nations are more interested in honing their writing skills in whatever genre presents itself.

It is a given that in any given war situation that the aims of the warring parties are not to defeat each other in the RL sense, because that would deprive NS of some very good writers who constantly contribute quality scripts. So in effect, when we go to war with another nation, it is without a clear understanding of how the war will end. And, as Guffingford points out, it is an escalating situation of ally-wanking, which if done in RL would result in a MAD situation, which is the antithesis of what, in my opinion, was the reason NS was created in the first place. Mr. Barry created this 'game' ostensibley to make people aware of his books and therefore to buy them. However, I can't help but wonder if he either consciously or otherwise created NS to see where the state of the amateur writer was today.

It is interesting to me to note the almost cyclical progress of NS. It seems a cycle starts out with a bunch of new nations all enthused about 'playing guns' as they did when they were little boys (Ladies, I'll get to you later). It then progresses to the point where they realize that there is more to the game than soldiers, tanks, etc. It's here that they start to try to watch their grammar and spelling, which, by and large, has minimally improved.

Then comes the actual constructing of the story, which can go in so many different directions that the story has the effect of a 'to be continued' tale.

Perhaps I'm rambling here, but I think the time has come for 'serious' (remember, it IS a game) NS'ers to concentrate on the form of the story rather than the content. The trick is to make the mundane interesting. Anybody can hurl megajillions of military units into a fight, and the techies can micro-describe the advanced attributes of FT hyperdrives and the like. But to capture a person's attention so that the reader is IN the story...that takes talent and ability.

Yes, let's keep on having diplomatic balls with scintillating conversation, and let's keep the Evil Dictator's thread going (highly amusing), and let's keep warring against each other.

But let's do it with an ever increasing awareness of good quality writing. Writing with passion, accuracy, and for heaven's sake, good grammar and spelling.

This is very interesting and well written, but I do not agree entirely with it. I personally would agree with Knootoss's Power-Wank theory but I would disagree that it is the primary mechanism by which a nation gains power. The power-wank ratio determines what kind of technology that a player can use, and I have seen that on II as one person uses something that hasnt been used before it will, over the course of one-two months (sometimes less, sometimes more), be copied by pretty much everyone. No one will ignore anyone else for it - why should they? Player A made it and he's very respected and made a brilliant write-up, and besides, everyone else uses it and so I would be putting myself at a disadvantage. Equally, some technologies fall out of fashion, also as respected players stop using it and public condemn it.

What does this mean? Well, it means that the power-wank ratio is in a constant state of flux, but it is not a national thing (it may be on NS, but Im talking about II), it is a forum-wide thing. Just like improvements in technology in RL, the initial nation(s) that use it gain a fleeting advantage but it quickly fades as first their rivals adopt it out of necessity and second everyone else adopts it just because everyone else is doing it and they can get away with it to gain a fleeting advantage over their rivals. So, technology is pretty much constant. So with all of the 'stats' being pretty much constant, what determines power?

As you said in your post, influence and power are two seperate things. Your influence is determined by how much effort you put into your posts, how often you post and how much you blow your own trumpet. Power is determined largely by strategic savvy. For all people accuse II of being devoid of tactics, numerous wars conducted involving Doomingsland, AMF and others that I have read (ie. the best wars that II has done in recent times, and the only good ones) show that the application of technology and troops are the real determining factors - not the numbers or the technology. This does not, however, necessarily have anything to do with "RPing ability".

Aside from this, the only real pattern I have seen in II is that RP quality has improved, posts have become longer and more detailed and actual events have become less frequent and less interesting as everyone is so scared to lose their image as a "responsible nation" or whathaveyou and the players cant be bothered to write the massive posts necessary to conduct RPs. Is this a good thing? Who knows.

Technology used to gain more "power" can be done, but not necessarily. Like technology, the balance between nations constantly shifts from one side to the other. When the first of those dreaded dreadnaughts appeared, people began screaming godmod, there's no 'anti-dreadnaught' weapon available. You know what happened.

Now there are plenty of methods and weapons to get rid of them. Influence is determined by your play style, IC attitude and the kind of people you RP with. I'd say power is determined by the imaginary height your nation or alliance attains. Status and respect are the same in II, and one can say respect thusly equals power. Which is logical since the most potent/powerful nations are usually the most technologically advanced/fearsome. Note that tech doesn't mean warmachines only. Technology can be used as economy, diplomacy. A universal term to indicate on what ground you are powerful.

Im sure this thread would be terribley intresting BUT I just can't be bothered reading it. Can anyone maybe shorten it up into a small paragraph? :p

Im sure this thread would be terribley intresting BUT I just can't be bothered reading it. Can anyone maybe shorten it up into a small paragraph? :pAmazing post, really worth adding. Seriously. If you can't read posts of this length then God forbid you ever start a real roleplay. Begone or add something worthwhile.

Amazing post, really worth adding. Seriously. If you can't read posts of this length then God forbid you ever start a real roleplay. Begone or add something worthwhile.

Frightening thing is Guff, he already did...

Amazing post, really worth adding. Seriously. If you can't read posts of this length then God forbid you ever start a real roleplay. Begone or add something worthwhile.

Turns out it wasn't as dull as I thought it was. After I checked where I got to and where the end is I found I read over half of it :p Seems good and I agree about many things. (The Roleplay Groups and such.)

Frightening thing is Guff, he already did...

And whats so frightening about that? Your in the RP.

And whats so frightening about that? Your in the RP.

If you can't read this, it makes me wonder if you even read my posts in their entirety.

Hey its not my fault you can't keep my attention span. You just have an incredibly dull writing style.Does an analysis needs to be exciting and full of sudden plot twists? When the central bank of China releases economic figures do you think people read it like a Steven King novel? Get real and get out.

Mmmk then. I will 'get out'. Just point to me where I am and Ill leave. And as for your comment about China's economic figures my answer to you is: No I don't think people read it like a Stephen King novel. Its China's Economic Report.

A lot of excellent points made by Guffingford. Now I'm going to use myself as an example. A bit of NS history, if you will.

I joined NS a long time ago. Only five months after it started, I joined. April 15, 2003. I remember the exact date. Then, I think sometime around April 2004, I let my nation die. NS had been consuming mylife, blah blah blah. Much ado about something.

Recently, a couple of weeks ago, I decided to come back and try it again. So I load it up. Most of my old allies are gone. Many of them are dead, others betrayed each other. I discover the alliance I worked so hard to set up (NATO) has disintegrated in my absence, and that there was even a failed attempt to restart it in my absence with, I believ, only one of the original four member nations as part of the new one. This also failed.

However, I remember what it was like back when NATO was young. We had a lot of fun. We schemed. We planned stuff. We were powerful. Yes, we were powerful. I recall our only rivals were the *Blankety Blank heretofore referred to as Bob's Alliance and Bob*, and we worked out that we could beat them in a war, and even planned how it would go. We were about to start it when I left. My point about that is that even big alliances with many people, with no apparent rivals, are nothing unless people know about them. So we planned a war to let people know about us. Back in the day, everybody walked on eggshells for for Bob's Alliance. They were huge, because Bob had joined the same time as me, and as he got bigger, he absorbed a lot of smaller nations under his wing, promising them a spot in his alliance in exchange for his protection. Of course, he ended up with a lot of smaller nations.

NATO, in stark contrast, was about nine larger nations. Ruhr, Celack, me, Sigma Octavius ... We planned we could beat them, but never carried it out. All to gain reputation and influence, because if somebody starts threatening you and you mention you're in an alliance, and they say "What the hell is that?" then you're in trouble. Sure, you can call in your allies, but it means you have absolutely no clout. You have no reputation, no influence, no notoriety. We planned this war to gain those things, so that we would say "Careful, I'm part of NATO," and they woudl say "Shit, I'm not messing with him."

That was then. This is now. When I got resurrected, I discovered very few of my old allies were still around, and those who are still are a whopping 6 billion people. My old enemies are three times my size. I'm terrified of getting into wars because I'd be a tiny power and I'm used to being a big one. My old friends are gone. I'm resorting to making new friends now, and trying to keep in touch with the only four friends I can recall right now off the top of my head.



But to use your example of everyone being scared of KO after their war with HAH. I can't remember a single time when a war affected everyone. Not a single one, in all my accumulated hours in NS. The closest I would say I ever saw it come was the Melkor Wars, way back in the day, when everybody wanted Melkor dead and huge alliances sprang up to fight each other, numberwanking on both sides to ensure victory. Nobody wanted to say they were on the losing side in the Melkor Wars.

Everybody called the World Wars, well ... World Wars, but really they weren't. There are far too many nations in NS for one person, or one alliance, to ever achieve supremacy. World Wars can't be what they claim to be because the world is so god damn big. With over 100,000 nations, although most don't RP, there's no way you can be a big enough power to influence the course of NS.

Nowadays everybody talks about Automagfreek fighting Kraven. It's today's equivalent of the Melkor Wars, and it's probably actually fairly similar in size, but NS itself has grown so much that it no longer means anything. Sure, there are a lot of threads about it, but there's a wole lot more threads about other stuff. Just random stuff. In the world of NationStates, even people like Automagfreek can never be more than a Regional Power. Sure, people will be scared of him and his allies, or Kraven and his allies, if they win, but it won't last. It can't last, unless the winner just keeps on crushing the people that aren't scared. Forceful elmination of those that aren't scared is the only way I can imagine to establish yourself as a major power in the world of NS.

But the truth is, eventually even the bullies, that win a war and then brag about it, making everyone scared, will meet their match, and their match will be better. Sure, we may win a war overwhelmingly, and then everyone will be scared for a while, but eventually it's going to be "I was in NATO," and everyone goes "Who's NATO?"

It also has to do with new nations coming in. I've discovered recently that, just from my join date, I get treated differently than I expect to be. I expect to just be treated the same way I was back in the day, but it doesn't work like that. I no longer have 10,000 posts. I have a little over 100, and people look at my join date and think N00b. It's unfair, but I realize I used to do it too. And the influx of new nations, who never knew a NATO, and never saw you in your wars, will defeat your purpose in scaring everyone. Nowadays I mention NATO and nobody knows what I'm talking about. I mention a war in Korea and they think I'm insane, even though a long time ago NATO fought a war in Korea, and I sent a lot of troops.

There's always somebody bigger and better. NATO could have won that war and gone around having some people be scared of you, but for all we knew, there could have been another alliance that just didn't read our threads, and then we could have gotten in a war with them and they would win, thanks to superior numbers.



If there's one thing I've learned in NS, it's that there's always somebody bigger. There's always a bigger nation, a bigger alliance. If not, then they will create a bigger alliance for one war, just to fight you, to stop being afraid of you anymore. Nobody wants to live their life in fear, and nobody wants to live their pretend life in fear either, so there will always be wars, and there will always be fear, because that's how power seems to be attained here.

And, as Guffingford points out, it is an escalating situation of ally-wanking, which if done in RL would result in a MAD situation, which is the antithesis of what, in my opinion, was the reason NS was created in the first place.

Not all of us choose to fall victim to ally wanking. I will use myself as an example, since it fits the topic and is easy for me to do (seeing as it's myself).

Over the past six months I've made a conscious effort to rely on allies in battle less and less. Operation: Hellfire was the pinnacle of this idea. If I wanted to I could have let the two dozen nations that wanted to side with me join the RP and make victory ever so easy to achieve. But instead I pushed my allies aside, stating that 'I will handle this myself' every time another nation decided to declare war on AMF.

Eventually it got to the point where AMF was fighting 7 nations, though 1 dropped out after a week or so because he felt it wasn't working out for him. So then it became 6. All the meanwhile, my 2 allies that I allowed to fight directly with me for the sake of story weren't directly fighting alongside me either. Pantera was fighting Sarzonia on some distant battlefield, and Aequatio was MIA from the RP.

Though the RP ended hastily I am surprised people aren't still talking about it. It was one of the best RPs to take place in some time, and everyone who was involved all got a nice push in 'publicity' as a result.

In more recent memory as Haraki points out, Automagfreek has been fighting The Kraven Corporation. While Kraven is a mere speck in size compared to AMF, the tech gap is quite great, which in my mind somewhat levels the playing field. In this war I have once more sworn off allied assistance (though a few still ended up participating despite my wishes), as well as in the fight against Kahanistan, which ended in a decisive victory for AMF. But why is that? Automagfreek is certainly known the world over for its vast network of allies, why would it want to stand alone?

The answer is simple: to prove that Automagfreek can stand on its own, and still be just as brutally effective as an entity.

Seeing as I can probably be held responsible for many of the trends in II (General purpose OOC threads, genocidal 'evil' dictators, etc.) I'm hoping that ideal in turn takes to the masses. Guff is right, the golden age of big alliances (or alliances in general) are over. What we're starting to see here in II is a major shift towards the individual, be it on a character level or a national level. II now sees more character based RP than ever (perhaps my 2 1/2 years of my exclusive work and contributions to II have paid off? ;) ), and fewer alliances than ever.

This is the natural cycle of II, and NationStates RP as a whole: the old die off and make room for the young, alliances and trends fall and wither, while new ideas blossom.

NS would be dull if things never changed, and you can see the change if you look at the recent trends. First it was terrorism, then being 'evil', then committing genocide and atrocities, and so on. This is perhaps the most obvious change on the forums...the way people choose to play and enjoy themselves.

So in closing my final point is this, yes, NS does change. But it is never an earth shaking change, it is always the natural cycle that I stated above. Having been here for almost 3 years, I really haven't seen that many repeats in trends, which is comforting....because that's a sign that NS still has plenty of life left in it.

Personally I feel that while II has improved in quality, I can't help but feel like it's lost some of it's charm... maybe I've just grown used to it and it no longer feels as fresh as it used to be.

There are times when I get annoyed with the more recent attitudes that seem to require players to design their own militaries in order to get fair recognition these days... perhaps I'm looking too deeply into it, but I've always been of the opinion that most nations of the same technology bracket will have comparable militaries (technology wise) with differences reflecting the nations speciality, for example, nations like Praetonia who seem to specialise on their naval power would likely have better ships overall and more experience in their chosen field compared to Iuthia, which has a fairly limited navy of it's size due to it's mostly defencive military doctrine. Thats generally how I compare technology, by looking at what the nation tends to focus on and/or have experience in. I wouldn't submit that just because someone spent several hours designing their standard tank that it's automatically better then my standard tank... afterall, my nations military design isn't sitting around with their thumbs up their ass, so I would expect there to be some reasonable excuse for why those tanks are technologically superiour, perhaps they are specialised for specific roles, maybe your nation focuses on tank combat... you know, something physical. The fact it's designed doesn't mean it's automatically better, it's just a detail you wanted to add because you wanted to show your expertise, otherwise I have to assume people are designing just to 'own' the other player which isn't really in the spirit of freeform RP.

Getting back to the subject at hand though, I have to admit that the quality of II has improved, people are spending more time on their threads and their stories... we still have alot of OOC bickering, but often it's moved out of the IC threads. There are a few people getting stuck on minutae of their statistics, something which has caught on and there are newbies who are now trying to get around the head fuck that is working out their nations military... but at least some of them recognise the logistical limitations. I don't really care too much about numbers so long as people recognise that some things have very limiting problems, such as invasions which should damn hard unless you've got a huge superiority over the defender. By enlarge most people accept this now.

Politically II is as fractured as ever and I'm glad that most of them seem to have learned that large alliances don't really work... or at least, they won't work unless everyone respects one another, which is rare when you invite just about anyone. Personally I've been reducing alliances as I've gotten older and I feel Iuthia has reached a good balance, we know enough nations to have some influence (though less now in II as things change) and security. My politics have always been my security really, we don't go to war without a damn good reason because its costly in both resources and lives and frankly much more can be achieved through diplomacy without wasting too much. Our allies are partly chosen because they too don't go to war without a good reason, reducing the change we'll be dragged into a clusterfuck like many of the big alliances have been threatened by. Some would argue it's dull, but I've always prefered political intrigue over war... it's simpler and I enjoy a good arguement.

Still, good analyse, Guffingford. I don't agree with all of it, but for the most part I'd say it's true.

I must say that, along with the points raised by others, this is an excellent analysis of II as a group of political entities. While II politics in itself does change over time, it will always go in the same style with the same pace - in the end, it is every nation for him/herself, and II will still move on in the same great cycle. Perhaps the only thing really changed, indeed, is the depth and variety of RPs and the overall improved quality in terms of how people RP and present their actions.

Fairly decent analysis, Guff. I would add that the main power blocs haven't changed, except for older nations slowly disappearing to apathy and lack of good rps. This is what is happening in both II and in Nationstates. New power blocs arise, and many of these ones cling and grovel to some of the more visible (ones who write a lot) nations in II. NS has lost some of its charm. I don't like the statwank but when I think I can possibly get involved with a younger nation suddenly I see thousands upon thousands of soldiers instantly mobilized and then my interest plummets. Sometimes it's hard to come up with brand new ideas and harder yet is to sustain it. As a personal example, the last major "war" the FKC was involved in was with Neo Tyr and that dragged out for a looong time. Almost as long as the diplomatic talks with the Drakonian Imperium. Thankfully, the former has drawn to a close but to keep interest in the game is sometimes hard. One gets tired of seeing the next storefront, coronation/ballroom dance, or "genocide" thread. I submit that there is a lack of intrigue in II and in Nationstates that keep up the suspense.

No one wants to commit to a major war since, well, it's hard to icly come up with a good reason. The AMF/Kraven war is also far far smaller in scale compared to the Coalition War against Melkor. I think the latter had a lot more interest because a) Melkor plays the villian perfectly and b) it doesn't have a "scripted" feel to it. Wars with no script make it far more interesting because you can never tell what will happen.

At least the more decent rps have seperate OCC and IC threads to sort out differences. That's a good development that came out of the end of 2004 IIRC and has been used a lot this year.

Thanks for the positive comments! It's good to see people not agreeing with me on all subjects, it promotes discussion. Anyways, this isn't a thread to improve II roleplay, since its already improving. If things keep on going like they're going as they are, 2006 will be an even better year quality wise.

Brilliant Guff, just bloody brilliant.

I have noticed a slight upward in quality in II and some originality here and there, which is good. But Hell, I feel old. Everybody knows Sarz, Prae, and AMF. But what about ME? Dang it I was the only one who brought some sense and humour into this game... egotistical? Absolutely, but I don't care.

Bah, but at least II is still evolving. And that is a good thing, I think.

I have to agree with most of your points. Especially the thing about the damn Earths. I have officially stopped making claims on the earths. Everything started going to hell when E2 was started. I RP with everyone regardless of what earth they are on.

I have to admit I've been absent for a while, but I'm back now and am looking to have some good RPs.

I agree with your alliance point. No alliance is 100% safe. Alliances have the best chance of winning when you get tons of nations to pile up on 1 or 2 attacking nations. IN my experience, alliances often will abandon an ally if he is the aggressor so it is dangerous to attack sometimes.

Brilliant Guff, just bloody brilliant.

I have noticed a slight upward in quality in II and some originality here and there, which is good. But Hell, I feel old. Everybody knows Sarz, Prae, and AMF. But what about ME? Dang it I was the only one who brought some sense and humour into this game... egotistical? Absolutely, but I don't care.

Bah, but at least II is still evolving. And that is a good thing, I think.
We all love your humorous contributions. I loved your attempted stickie on amphibious warfare. It was one of the most intelligent, factual, and HUMOROUS threads I've ever read in II.

I have to admit I've been absent for a while, but I'm back now and am looking to have some good RPs.

You have a TG.

I'm probably the youngest nation yet to provide input here (not counting Haraki, since he's not really a Dec '05), but I must say this was an excellent analysis, Guff. I saw a bit of myself in your hypothetical alliance KO; I'm the de facto founder of the Saharistan War Coalition, formed during my very first war of the same name. The only reason my opponent lost was due to his rather idiotic use of ICBM-spam against his enemies, whereupon all his former allies deserted him in the face of overwhelming international condemnation. And the only reason my nation came out of the war stronger than before was due to the fact that we somehow miraculously escaped being nuked. Had we been, we would have been set back decades in terms of development and growth. But we survived, we won prestige due to our victory, and we gained a host of allies out of it.

Today, while there is a certain element of collective defense present in the nature of the SWC, I now see that I regarded it more, in its early days, as a tool to gain individual allies. I agree with your analysis about large alliances; all attempts I have seen at such ventures have failed miserably, which is why I've locked the SWC at its current five members.

Personally, I'm anticipating my one-year "anniversary" of sorts in May of next year, but I'm also anxious to see what the entire year as a whole brings to NS. Here's to 2006!

I believe nationstates II has changed. It has declined.

I think i am one of the last surviving members of The First International - i was there from schism to end - at the time i had taken the side of the reformist communists.
If i am not then please notify.

Back then alliances ruled the forums. GDODAD, The International, the ACL. Nowadays there is nothing. There is a power vacuum that the Knootoos had predicted.


No one nation is THE enemy. Back when i joined the forums i was a XXL-newb. But i one nation sticks out during the time i scoured II.

CM DA VE what ever you call him. We hated him, his writing skills and personality ooc, ic but it was a nation that on all counts would be attacked by everyone and he united the world against a common enemy. Someone everyone found an interest in.


One of the defining factors of the near-past year was the deletion of Hogsweat. The epitaph signatures have gone, the moaning and appeals forgotten. But we remember Hogs fantastic navy - as many believe it was one of the, if not the greatest.
Over time the place was taken by Sarzonia and Praetonia -when i think of one i can't help myself think of the other - who are recognised for planes, and ships.


The Earths have killed war RPs. all i see is.

[EARTHX : CLOSED]

The earths have no meaning, i do not follow earths. i am not an earth country. So when France 7 EARTHX ONLY is selling some booster rockets. I will buy them.


The large scale roleplays have gone, only the off-site or subject RPs are big.
The RP level has improved, longer posts, more detail, higher quality. But many dont lead onto anything else. Random posts here and there. I admit i am guilty of this but its because i dont feel confident enough to enter a full scale RP.
The closest i came was with my International space station rp, which fell apart quickly on the third page - the designers hadn't even got a chance to sit at the table.

I think that in time wounds may heal.
And i hope that Kroblexskij rises to infamy. Until then i'm continuing building concept planes and keeping a nostalgic technology level. Try and join some big RPs in the new year.

I agree with your main point. International Incidents has evolved and will continue to evolve as old players leave or stop RPing and younger players start taking over. It's cyclical and it will always be cyclical.

One thing that's different now is that there is no longer one country that is so dominant that no other countries would dare stand up against it. When I started, Automagfreek was that country and while he hasn't gotten any weaker, there've been several countries that have gotten a lot stronger, to the point where it's more like pre-World War I with about 10 significant powers that have more influence than other nations.

I agree with your main point. International Incidents has evolved and will continue to evolve as old players leave or stop RPing and younger players start taking over. It's cyclical and it will always be cyclical.

One thing that's different now is that there is no longer one country that is so dominant that no other countries would dare stand up against it. When I started, Automagfreek was that country and while he hasn't gotten any weaker, there've been several countries that have gotten a lot stronger, to the point where it's more like pre-World War I with about 10 significant powers that have more influence than other nations.

Yarr, and that be a good thing.

TIOR its you not in puppet form.

Yes i was going to put in a part about the forum oligarch. I wouldnt put it at ten or so, but yes. different nations fill different parts.

What will happen at the fall of these nations then.
I predict that the nations will fall slowly, trying to be the last and claiming to never give up. But some day they wll have to and when it comes.

There will be a slow rush of power to fill the gaps, during this history may repeat itself and Alliances may rise to combat these new effectively ruling nations.
Take this nation-e-quation

Nx, Ny, Nz are powerful respected nations
Na, Nb, Nc are prospective educated nations

Nx, Ny start a war
Nz stays neutral
Nx decimates Ny and through negotiations Ny starts a puppet nation Ny2.
Ny dies.
Ny2 is respected but too small.
Nz has become more powerful by not getting into combat.
Nx is more respected through winning but less powerful.

Na had joined the war
Nb, Nc did not
Na is respected
Nx quits due to Ns-addiction

Nz is now dominant
Na is recognised
Nz, Na now are dominant
Nb is allied to Na
Nb becomes known

Nz, Na, Nb are dominant
Nc become jealous
Nc, Ny2 make an alliance to stop Na, Nb.

History repeats
Many other theories exist. this is one.

* All earths. Earths do not count as NS roleplaying. I don't care if Russia on E2 declares war on Panama. It adds nothing to NS roleplaying. Also includes AMW, W@W, off-site things et al.
* Alternate history roleplays. The Punic Wars are indeed a very dramatic happening but what does it do to you and me? Not a damn thing.
* Past tech and Future tech. Although the theories and conclusions I presented also apply on FT nations, the majority of II is (P)MT. This has always been the same.
* Special themes such as computer games, industrial age or Mario Bros.
* OOC threads. This one's obvious.
* n00b stuff. Again, obvious.

Oh I'm sorry, I missed where God appointed you to decide what does, and what does not count as NS roleplaying.

Oh I'm sorry, I missed where God appointed you to decide what does, and what does not count as NS roleplaying.

Hate to break it to you, but, aside from the FT bit in my opinion, almost ervery NSer will agree with him. And I mean true NSers, not just people who stay on their cliqueish little earths and AMW.

I like to think i've taken the role of Evil nation, Its something ive tried to do since the conception of my nation, my Economy is generaly controversial, but it adds i feel to the whole Evil, Mechanical, Automated War machine that is the Corporation, it exists purely for War.

Now some people may not agree with my claims that i'm an evil nation, but proof of my claims exists in the many nations that have rallied against me, all with the goal to destroy my nation as I am seen as a threat to world peace.

But am I going to simply vanish from NS once i'm destroyed?

No, I couldn't simply abandon the people ive gotten to known IC and OOC, and as I am the evil sinister gamer, I will always have some little surprise stashed up my sleeve, Once or If I am destroyed now that AMF is knocking at my door, I have loads of RP's lined up.. NS is one thing i cannot simply abandon

Oh I'm sorry, I missed where God appointed you to decide what does, and what does not count as NS roleplaying.

He's discounting them for the sake of simplicity in his analysis, not totally. And Mini Miehm is right -- besides the FT part, I totally agree with Guff.

Hate to break it to you, but, aside from the FT bit in my opinion, almost ervery NSer will agree with him. And I mean true NSers, not just people who stay on their cliqueish little earths and AMW.
No, no they wont, because you have no such evidence to back up your ridiculous claim.

No, no they wont, because you have no such evidence to back up your rediculous claim.

Points to Halberdgardias post as evidence. Booyah!

Also points to all of the other post agreeing with Guff as evidence.

One guy is not 'most NSers', and 20 or so other people in this thread is not 'Most NSers', how someone who can use a keyboard can jump to this conclusion is beyond my own comprehension.

Points to Halberdgardias post as evidence. Booyah!

Also points to all of the other post agreeing with Guff as evidence.


Erm...'booyah' isn't a good way to get a point across, it only makes you look like an ass.

And not everybody agrees with Guff. While it was a well written and thought out post (I'm not questioning that), I do disagree with him on what constitutes as NS roleplay.

About the only thing I could come up with to excuse you for the outright stupidity you just posted, is the fact you must be inept in every mental capacity. One guy is not 'most NSers', and 20 or so other people in this thread is not 'Most NSers', how someone who can use a keyboard can jump to this conclusion is beyond my own comprehension.

Just shut up. Personal attacks are not convincing me you're right. You are one of the few people who has disagreed with Guff. Therefore, the majority of NS wo has read this must support his conclusions and what he considers to be NS roleplay. AMFs post suggests otherwise, but since nobody else has come forward to debate the issue, it's two to about 20 something. You are outnumbered, and, since the issue at hand is numbers and support for Guffs definition of RP, I think you lose.

Just shut up. Personal attacks are not convincing me you're right.

Hence why I tried to edit it out. And isn't telling me to shutup a personal attack?

You are one of the few people who has disagreed with Guff. Therefore, the majority of NS wo has read this must support his conclusions and what he considers to be NS roleplay.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

AMFs post suggests otherwise, but since nobody else has come forward to debate the issue, it's two to about 20 something. You are outnumbered, and, since the issue at hand is numbers and support for Guffs definition of RP, I think you lose.

Any I think that passes as the funniest thing I have read all day.

Some of us, we who act apart from the main, have been here a darn sight longer than some of those thinking themselves fit to call themselves the followers of the true faith, so to speak. I don't see the point of the ordinary earths that exist or have existed merely for the sake of territorial claims, but some clearly have or had a purpose in mind, and it isn't for anybody else to shout them down from without. I certainly don't appreciate AMW being tarred with the same brush, and while those inclined to do that are perfectly entitled to their opinions, I'm just posting this in passing to inform them that they are wrong. However, I would never have started AMW, and I expect that neither would Quinntonia, were the mainstream more reasonable and realistic- the geographically earth-like nature of AMW only arose because there was no reason for it not to after the creation of an opt-in standard of sensibilities.

Hate to break it to you, but, aside from the FT bit in my opinion, almost ervery NSer will agree with him. And I mean true NSers, not just people who stay on their cliqueish little earths and AMW.

And here you go saying God pointed you to decide who count beeing "true NSers". While I, in most part, agree with your opinions, this attitude here is something I truly dislike.

I agree, however there's also what seems to be an avoidance syndrome, some people seem to be scared to try out a new concept type of RP or a new angle of an existing type of RP, it is fairly disheartening for people who put a ton of effort into something and for it to not get a repsonse from loads of people, at this rate the entire of NS will slowly end up becomming a collection of Cliques, with one group always having wars another group always doing diplomatic conferences and another group always doing Character RP's while it is often nessacery for certain things to be closed in the interest of fair play a great deal of things seem to be closed now that are interesting and needn't be closed.

For Example when I first refreshed my page for II


Diplomacy in Kurora (Torontian/Diplomacy RP, Closed)
The Terrorist, The Psychopath and the President’s Ball
The Last Stand of Man [CLOSED, Attn: Invaders/Mankind]
ViZion Begins SNA Program - Attn: Young Nations (75M pop, less)
Amestrian/Kahanistanian Relations (closed, attendance Kahanistan)
Just what is the current state of II?
Modern World Opening To New Members!
Want colonies? Then look HERE! [Colonial "region", not an ad]
A new power (MT, introduction, open)
The Ottoman Times (1900 rp)
post Begun, the Clone War has...(closed)
MT+PMT VS. FT ooc signup and planning
Go to first new post Talks of the Future.... (Closed, attn. CoreWorlds)
International Relief Hospital Fire
Resident Evil RP IC ONLY
Integration of Post-Modern Tech Nations
Tidan's Research & Development Documentation (FT, closed)
The Clone Wars (OOC)
[OOC] A Passion Play
Collapse of Torontia OOC thread
VNB Uncovered: ViZion Permits Torture of POWs, Terrorists
E20 Economy and Spending thread
For King and Country [ATTN Pantheaa, Earth II]
First Diplomatic Conference: All Nations Seeking Relations Invited!
Cassiopeians to start Colonies on Systems near TFU Space.

Only 8 out of 25 topics were actual RP's that fit into the catagory as defined by Guff as an Actual RP, some of the ones in bold may be questionable as to whether they fit in the catagory or not and others not bloded may fit in but at a glance only 8 out of 25, not good at all, And they all either fit into the Catagory of Diplomacy, War or Character, there needs to be something new done.

I agree with Guff because I don't see a point in the Earths? so what if you can claim a place that actually exists, your point in that is? Guff is very right about Cliques, though this may only be the tip of the iceberg.

Just shut up. Personal attacks are not convincing me you're right. You are one of the few people who has disagreed with Guff. Therefore, the majority of NS wo has read this must support his conclusions and what he considers to be NS roleplay. AMFs post suggests otherwise, but since nobody else has come forward to debate the issue, it's two to about 20 something. You are outnumbered, and, since the issue at hand is numbers and support for Guffs definition of RP, I think you lose.

Actually, I don't think that's the case. The thing is, new and small/youngER and smallER nations are afraid to post here. Cuffingford is an old and respected nation, and it shows clearly in that post. Responces have come from mostly similar nations, atleast no one under 1000 post's, and that leaves out a great percentage of NS'ers - those who have something between 100 and 600, those who are still considered as "newbies" if not n00bs anymore, and may disagree with opinions but are too afraid for their reputation to disagree with people behind those opinions.

I don't think he has lost, as there wasn't even a competition.

I disagree with a single point (the FT/PMT bit), but otherwise, I like the list. Earth RPs are DEFINITELY not NS RPs, they don't rely on the player's nation at all, and most of them have off-site forums. And of course, OOC threads don't really count. Still, anything that uses the nation or characters from that nation should be considered an NS RP, IMHO.

I think the current state is far too technical there is just too much of this kind of thread that are beyond pointless this game doesn’t have any rules and really isn’t too important too the world I suggest:

1) People stop listening to this dribble

I for one don’t care about whether or not Guffingford likes the way NS is going and I for one don’t care how long he’s been playing this game does he somehow have mystical powers that affect NS and thus your imagination?

2) People following this dribble (like there is any)

You may notice how only players with so called respect post these threads I think its because some people are going round kissing ass looking for respect face it respect on NS is non-existent why should some newbie have to read this junk that some bigshot thinks is important to have on NS in order to make it work here is a scenario were these rules aren’t followed:

evil orcs say there invading MT Earth nations now will use there own judgement on whether or not they want to fight the orc armies and some will fight them and have a blast

I already have set up an Alien invasion thread of MT+PMT VS. FT and its fun (albeit were getting are asses kicked)

3) post a summery

I’m tired of reading line after line of ranting so I can get some over exaggerated point for goodness sake post a summery I want to know what I’m reading is worth reading before I spend my time

4) cut down on the pointless post

I’m sick off seeing some unimaginative person post “hey man that rocks!” what is the point of this post other than proving that people are like sheep?

5) quit taking this so seriously

This is a game its suppose to be just something you send a few hours a week playing why is everyone acting like this game actually matters if some 5 mil player wants to RP a mission to the Moon why should someone shout “hey that’s godmod get the pitchforks”

6) stop invading young players

I have seen a player (getting inspiration of the Mongol nation) post that there people believe there nation will rule the world remember this wasn’t a government stance so why they hell did 50+ nations have the urge to out pressure in this nation?

Ooc: not one full stop anywhere nasty grammar rule checkers:p

Note: yes how funny that I didn’t put a summery in a post where I say I want them oh how we lol well I didn’t because Guffingford didn’t and I want him to spend his time reading this like I always have too

Meh, I think some people are forgetting that this thread is about opinions and that ElectronX's difference in opinion is welcomed, this is supposed to be a debate after all and Guffingford himself doesn't mind people disagreeing with him because it creates discussion. To be honest this entire thread is about what people think of International Incidents current state, it's just that Guffingford started the ball rolling with his opinion writen in a lengthy detailed way. The only rights and wrong in this thread are based on your own views and they certainly won't always be the same as the next poster, so just try to show a bit of respect.

As for the idea of cliques... frankly they've existed almost since the very start of Nationstates. It's natural for most people to makes friends with people they get on with and then, perhaps after getting tired of being burned while dealing with others they eventually decide to stick with playing with people they trust. That said, however, there are many players who will RP with anyone providing there is something that interests them. Automagfreek is a good example of this, he hates RPing with future technology nations but has recently overlooked this because he's interested in what the Kraven Corperation did. You are always going to find people forming cliques, but more often then not I find that if you come up with an interesting enough idea you can RP with almost anyone.

Well, here's my two cents, since we are all talking shop. I was almost afeard to post this, for the fear of flames, but here we go.

FT/PMT does not need to be eliminated, but I think that it should be changed a little, as should MT.

For one thing, it should focus more on plot. This is not Jane's Defence or Stardestroyer.net. This is RPing, where technology is merely subordinate to the plot at hand. Dangit, I came here to make a good plot; not write a science book or a technical manual.

I recognize the need for some limitations, but when, as I've seen, several hundred post-threads about weapons designs like walking tanks/mechs full of flames and counter-flames, you wonder where the focus has gone.

I find it better to just ignore those threads, using them if I really want to know about what they're using... but personally those threads are little more then background information, even if there are alot of them.

Personally I've been reducing alliances as I've gotten older and I feel Iuthia has reached a good balance, we know enough nations to have some influence (though less now in II as things change) and security.Better not be dropping from the NDA. Elisa would cry.

I agree with Guff because I don't see a point in the Earths? so what if you can claim a place that actually exists, your point in that is?...because they find it enjoyable? Thought that was the point of this site. I don't play on the Earths, and I find them a little silly, but I'm not about to say they aren't "real NS" (whatever that's supposed to mean).

- - - - -

As for the decline of alliances, I think it has to do with growing populations. During its golden age (not counting numerous failed attempts to restart it), GDODAD had a total population somewhere between 2 and 5 billion, and had numerous nations. The Federation, which contains a scant 4 nations, has a combined population of 20.731 billion. Why deal with an unwieldly, multi-nation alliance when you can just as easily have safety in numbers with one or two choice allies? Also, it's a lot easier to poke a single ally into posting then to try and get 15 or so members off their asses to make a post.

Ah Guff., a great piece, yet again, but I have some things to nit pick:

Your comments on n00bs being not mentionable, but what you don't relize is, when I hear n00b, unlike others, I think of newbies. This is not the "OMFG nuk3d!" people, but those and the people who balantly start a war with a random nation they saw on the UN Reports on who has joined or left. This even includes people who have not played and do not quite type in proper paragraphs or have that perfect high school grammer. This includes a bunch of people, and you should include them in this debate.

They make up, I would say, about 15% of II, semi-active (a post a week) and active (a post every other day or more) both. So, well, that's quite a bit of people, so, that is a big chunk.

Their experiances, I would say, should be noted. I was a newbie once, and I remember when we still had the NS forums that I was the worst stereotypical newbie. I RPed in bodies, each body I would type would be a battlefront or a specific conversation, with most conversations being a quote for each line, which can get very annoying when done ungrammerically.

Within a month of my typing, learning, and more notibly messing with Hamptonshire, Praetonia, and Witzgall I learned how to RP (me and Witzgall growing on each other with our talents) and before you knew it I actually sounded like a politican on a good day and knew the difference between reinforced steel and concrete when a bomb hits both. That shows the importance of newbies.

II, like you said, is not the forum making the people, but the people making the forum, and thus, showing the people grow, shows the forum growing. Now the standerds are of course higher, and although I grew up in short comings and then grew onto this all-tech knowing forum, where you have to know community college-level science and an AP chemistry class just for a single beach assault, or even a physics formula for a sniper-carried assassination, and know the differences of Leninism and Stalinism.

Newbies have to learn more than they did a year ago or else they are ignored or yelled at in OOC about how they ignored the fact that that specific aircraft can't do that manuver in those winds, when in reality they did not know to begin with.

Hell, I remember that if you had nukes before 100 million, you were godmodding, and if you warred with a 1 billion nation at 900 million, you lost. Now it is so too complicated, and although I know I am ranting now, I will not delete everything since I always do and I actually want one of my rants seen.

My original point, newbies need to learn more, and seeing some do it in a short amount of time, reguardless of having background experiance away from this site (which I am sure, but not 100%, is how Potty 5 knows his Tonka Tanks and little boom toys), makes me feel that they are our community. They keep activeness, in doing stupid stuff, they make RPs interesting because sometimes they have the freshed and untouched feelings on how to write a story, and sure enough, we getr variety, and we see a nation grow. Hell, The Silver Sky has gone a long way and writes like Poe, when about five months ago he wrote in bodies, like I commented about earlier.

Now a-days I see nations I have never heard of, not the norm from the old NS Forum days I pride myself in being part of, the old days, and they RP, with just weeks of me starting to pay attention to them, making sense, and that shows they grow. It makes me feel, just maybe, that newbies are the majority of the forum, because they are the growing seed we have planted, and [bare with me, I am about to make a worthless joke] although Mac doesn't have a green thumb and FWS grew out of that composte, some people can plant grand brushes, such as Hogsweat throwing into the cow's leftovers The Silver Sky and Kroando.

Now....what was the point of this again? Oh yeah, include newbies in this discussion, because they are important and show how the forums are actually getting flexiable and more "n00ber-friendly." Since nowadays people actually give Euro's topics, instead of "get off the F*kin forum you n00bz0r!" comments, that shows a lot too. I think that II is in great condition, and the whole Theory is correct.

Verstummelung, about 2 billion strong, can easily keep Macabees, some 5 billion strong, on the borders. I have seen it happen twice, and I am just waiting for a third....maybe one side may gain ground? Proves to me, that when two experianced RPers come together, size and tech means nothing, tactics and style is what wins.

That again brings me to the newbies, Verstummelung was a newbie, now look at him, he can fend off just about anyone twice, maybe even thrice, his size. It is a curce, that if you havn't been on NS long you don't know the basic styles of RPing, which means you are creative, and you are unique, and you may show someone one thing or two.

(...)Better make it 6, since the 1900 RP is alternate history, the resident evil RP is a special theme where you play in a video game environment following guidelines ie has to maintain several game aspects.
Following the loosely applied "rulings" I used in my thread, then you can exclude FT from these categories if you'd like. Like I said before, what I wrote in the first place applies on FT as well as any other tech.

People, I don't care whether you agree with me or it. I'm glad many people can see reason in my first post (not truth), and see why I posted it. It's the end of the year, time to evaluate everything. And ElectronX, that's your opinion. Try not to force it unto others, or try not to flame. It makes your arguments look much more serious and less childish. If you want to make your own thread, go ahead. But don't come here and start bashing everything. Constructive criticism is fine, but at least come up with a few arguments why I am wrong.

I like to think i've taken the role of Evil nation.
sure have done


But am I going to simply vanish from NS once i'm destroyed?


no, being the evil nation you are. You will be remembered, somewhere around Gdodad level. As you fought AMF - one of the most well known nations, and you created a memorable/original nation. and all in half a year. Whilst i started of young, naive and ignorant.

My guess is that you will return as a post-apocalyptic nation type thing.
When i go im going with a bang like that. I already have 4 pages of it written out.
I used a variated version to write a story for an essay. The end of many nations may come before we can percieve it.

sure have done



no, being the evil nation you are. You will be remembered, somewhere around Gdodad level. As you fought AMF - one of the most well known nations, and you created a memorable/original nation.

My guess is that you will return as a post-apocalyptic nation type thing.
When i go im going with a bang like that. I already have 4 pages of it written out.
I used a variated version to write a story for an essay. The end of many nations may come before we can percieve it.

Thankyou, comments like these make nation states all the more worth while

To be quite honest, I think I preffered it when people just randomly declared war on each other. Sure, it was base without plotline or any reason or anything, but at least it happened. Things were alot more simple, not as much "you can't attack me cos x alliance did do say so"

Nice post Guff, especially liked the part about China's economic figures.

A well written post. However it goes to show just how serious and perhaps beyond a certain level in which people take this game. Since this is in fact a game. We are but the players who use the pieces on the board and find pleasure in doing so.


You said that Alliances and such are ways for people to gain a sense of security? Only right in part. People join alliances and military orginazations not for the sole purpose of gaining security, there are many other varied reasons, and each depends upon the nation and the player that controls it.


When it comes to concerning the vacuum or other things in II, your categories of nations I find faulty. There are but 2 categories in which to fit nations. Those powerful and driven enough to gain their ends, and those to weak or blinded by idealistic reasoning to grasp that end.


Then there is the ideal that is the most alien to everything that has thus far happened and taken place within II, and even NS. Total Pacifism. The complete de-militarizing of the nations of the II world. No more wars, deaths (by combat), suffering that war causes. Such an ideal however can not be realized through dialogue; only through the complete dominance of a single nation or organization through total war, can then peace be totally established.

But the ideal inheret of that dialogue is well wished for by many. But as Guff said: We as nation build weapons and militaries to provide ourselves with a sense of security.

Until the time when the need to feel that security trancends the need to build weapons to service that need, then II will continue to be a virtual battlefield, whose victor has yet to be seen.

Better not be dropping from the NDA. Elisa would cry.

I can't think of any reason as to why I would leave the NDA, it's a good alliance full of nations we respect who we're sure would be as ready to support us as we are to support them, I know you guys won't go to war without a damn good reason and you all generally have the same views as Iuthia. Aside from all that, I wouldn't want to make Elisa cry... it was hard enough on Kayla losing her the first time.

I can't think of any reason as to why I would leave the NDA, it's a good alliance full of nations we respect who we're sure would be as ready to support us as we are to support them, I know you guys won't go to war without a damn good reason and you all generally have the same views as Iuthia. Aside from all that, I wouldn't want to make Elisa cry... it was hard enough on Kayla losing her the first time.

What is the NDA if I might ask?

To be quite honest, I think I preffered it when people just randomly declared war on each other. Sure, it was base without plotline or any reason or anything, but at least it happened. Things were alot more simple, not as much "you can't attack me cos x alliance did do say so"

Nice post Guff, especially liked the part about China's economic figures.
I agree. II has become pretty dull. No one does anything anymore.

I.I. just isn't what it used to be. I miss the good old days, where about 10 n00bs a day would appear, declare war on the world, n00k every nation, and then get ridiculed, ignored, and deleted. The days when almost the whole world had a common enemy, the Fabuses (love or hate CM/DA/VE and Kahta OOCly, they did give I.I. some flavor). The days when nations such as Grenval, Crimson blades, Jordaxia, Granzi, Hallad, Greenmanbry, TIOR, etc. were around (some of them are around, but no longer RP). So many good RPers are gone, and some people (like me) were once good RPers, but rusted with age. Granted, I do still like I.I., but not as much as I did when I first started NS.

To be quite honest, I think I preffered it when people just randomly declared war on each other. Sure, it was base without plotline or any reason or anything, but at least it happened. Things were alot more simple, not as much "you can't attack me cos x alliance did do say so"

Nice post Guff, especially liked the part about China's economic figures.

Exactly!

I.I. just isn't what it used to be. I miss the good old days, where about 10 n00bs a day would appear, declare war on the world, n00k every nation, and then get ridiculed, ignored, and deleted. The days when almost the whole world had a common enemy, the Fabuses (love or hate CM/DA/VE and Kahta OOCly, they did give I.I. some flavor). The days when nations such as Grenval, Crimson blades, Jordaxia, Granzi, Hallad, Greenmanbry, TIOR, etc. were around (some of them are around, but no longer RP). So many good RPers are gone, and some people (like me) were once good RPers, but rusted with age. Granted, I do still like I.I., but not as much as I did when I first started NS.
I dont think that that n00b thing ever happened, but I agree with you on the other stuff. Everyone who RPed a nation that people didnt like and that did stuff (CM etc) everyone went on an OOC witch hunt against. All the hardline commies are gone now do. Does anyone else remember the Red Bloc Alliance? *sigh* II needs more variety.

I agree. II has become pretty dull. No one does anything anymore.

Yeah, I miss the terrorist fad where puppet nations were used to get at your enemies using terrorists without any explainations as to how they are supported and why they just exist to create terror.

I agree... it feels duller probably because people have actually gotten to be more realistic (ironically) and as such we don't find as many random wars over something as petty as an insult, lets face it... we secretly like crazy nations because it gives us something to shout at.

That said, times change and the community evolves... there is always something to do and if we can't find anything to do then it's our own faults for not creating something to do. Personally I'm trying to move Iuthia into a new age and freshen things up, but like always I always find myself looking in II for a quick fix which distracts me from my own projects which take alot of work to get started.

So yeah, I remember the fun I used to have, but really I would like to try and start my own fun.

lets just pull the world into an NS world war it should pretty much restart the balance of power then after a few more months get into another one that way some new nations can take allot of power much like America (who only entered because they suffered a surprise attack 3 years (?) into a global conflict :p ) did from the British empire (who had a larger population)

So what I think we should do is set up world conflicts as a way to prune ns nations from getting too strong though we will have to finally make nukes obsolete for a conflict to erupt.

now if only we had a spark

We've had more then enough sparks in International Incidents, from Automagfreek's affairs to numberous World Wars and giant alliances getting pissed off at one another... but it rarely ever changes much.

we could always form two uber alliances for some odd reason that oppose each other and then set up some small nation to be are Franz Ferdinand

then we can set up a band named after the nations leader and be herald as a new hit band (dibbs on drums)

Now if only we had a cause any ideas?

We've had more then enough sparks in International Incidents, from Automagfreek's affairs to numberous World Wars and giant alliances getting pissed off at one another... but it rarely ever changes much.

The problem with International Incidents is the fact that people come up with these 'amazing' ideas, but they end up falling through, based on an argument or inability to follow through with the idea. Speaking specifically about the most recent massive surge of wars, most of them didn't actually finish themselves. Most nations either dropped out or just didn't want to finish it, or even was torn apart by arguments between each of the nations.

The fact that II moves so quickly when it comes to post seems to be a double-edged sword. Sure, RP's go a lot quicker than Nationstates; however, things are less planned than in the other RP forum, and people lose interest a lot easier (in my experience, of course).

I will admit, NS has lost its tastes. Way back when, when the commies fought like the Soviets and the Fascist White States made us all get out of bed the next day, and even when those Buddhist terrorists blew up a Taoist temple and no one could track the terrorists since they weren't funded.

Nowadays people want detail and forced power, when a long time ago people posted for the Hell of it. When you got conquered, oh well, you could always be a terrorist or blow the entire capital of your nation to bits in an ambush gurella style.

I think I could plan a Doomsday RP to consume a few alliance blocs, but no one would want in since, like Guff. has said, it would threaten their security.

It's a new year, how about we all die out of this super-alliance trend and let the new guys take charge with us being more experianced, but more scarred from our past wounds of battles and civil insurgency?

What is the NDA if I might ask?Non-Democratic Alliance, a group founded by Treznor, Iraqstan and Dread Lady Nathicana.

The days when almost the whole world had a common enemy, the Fabuses (love or hate CM/DA/VE and Kahta OOCly, they did give I.I. some flavor).Well... so does cyanide...

I'm all-in for an old-timers RP. Something to pull us all back together, give us back the sense of cameraderie we once had ... I dunno, maybe the people that stuck around still do, but I sure as hell lost it!

So ... Maybe to ring in 2006, we should have a massive free-for-all, where we start as many new threads as the Torontians do, all for various different things, and fight lots of stuff. Since we've all had our day in the sun maybe it's time to step aside and see what the fresh blood brings in. So, I think a good way for us to do this would be to cripple all our nations with some sort of huge thing: A war, maybe. A series of natural disasters, a plague, technical failure, Y2K, the Teletubbies becoming the #1 rated show in your nation, mass guerilla wars, out-of-control rioting in all our major cities ... There's no end to what we could do to screw ourselves over and let the newbies take over.

Although I must say, I do miss the days back when we had the WMNK and we went to work about ten times a day to glass the guys that said "i dclr war on teh UN lol". I laughed so hard at Psycho Retards, my favourite of all those nations, ever.

And Jono Land being so mad at me for whatever reason. I was reading back about 1500 pages on II a few days ago and came across a bunch of old threads that made me laugh harder than I've laughed in a long time.

If there was a massive II World War, how would one devide the sides?

If there was a massive II World War, how would one devide the sides?

Well, Evil vs Good vs Nuetral...

Seems like the most logical.

So should we all start putting "Nation Alignment: Good Guy/Bad Guy" in our signatures? Just to see how everything would pair up??

Sure, sound's fun. XD

But seriously, I don't know.

lets just pull the world into an NS world war it should pretty much restart the balance of power then after a few more months get into another one that way some new nations can take allot of power much like America -SNIP-

Heh...I'd be willing to organize that. I think one was started about a year ago, but it ended up falling through, if I remember correctly. That was the first attempt I had seen at an NS world war.

Heh...I'd be willing to organize that. I think one was started about a year ago, but it ended up falling through, if I remember correctly. That was the first attempt I had seen at an NS world war.


I actually had twenty-five nations lined up to begin one this month, but A Passion Play is taking longer than I expected, and I don't like deviating from my roleplays.

Present Day Comatica, Can you start a sepreate thread for this?

I doubt some nations would willingly give up their power just like that.

But I don't care either way. Tocrowkia's here for better and for worse. ;)

Present Day Comatica, Can you start a sepreate thread for this?

Sure can. :D

I don't think putting good guy/bad guy in sigs would work, for some inexplicable reason I never seem to see ppl'z Avatars (and I know a select few ppl have them) and sigs.

would this massive NS war be closed to relative newbies? (comparativley speaking we're all newbies compared to you lot)

You have to go to your profile and turn on 'view signatures', 'view avatars' and such things, in the Options part of the control panel.



I don't think it would be completely closed to newbies, but I think that it would be focused around the older members and any newbies that really wanted to join in a really, really big war specifically designed to cripple all its participants could.

Novacom, can you work on U.N.I too. I feel as it has stopped, and even bumped it up for you.

Define relative newbie, because I'm less that 500 million. So, realtivly, I'm a noob.

I guess the deviding line would all depend on what triggers the war. I guess a good starting point would be figuring out which two "big" nations decided to declare war on each other, and have everyone fall in line behind one of them.

isn't a new player a newb, and a bad player a noob?

I'm comparing experience to Guff and Co, comparativley we haven't experienced anything whatsoever.

and NS yes I'm working on a response now, I myself feel it's stopped due to lack of uptake.

Define relative newbie, because I'm less that 500 million. So, realtivly, I'm a noob.


Being a noob has nothing to do with population, but roleplaying ability. And you don't seem to be a noob, or even a newb.

Despite the rather stupid and childish terms we use, I'll play along for now: The way I would define it off the top of my head would probably be something like this: Anyone from, say, November or December 2005 is a newb. Anybody from the rest of 2005 or 2004 is a regular, and anybody from 2003 or 2002 is an old timer. I dunno, that's definitely not perfect by a long shot. And n00bery is determined all by roleplaying, not size or join date.

I don't think anyone who's posted in this thread is a noob or a newb (God, I hate even saying those words. I dislike judging people based on join date or anything of the type. Roleplaying skill is really all that matters).

Quick dashed off note: I agree that a world war could breathe new life into NS. I think someone here should create an ooc formulation thread. We can work out who's doing what, how to start etc...
I'm very excited about this. Count me in.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461859

We're already ahead of you, hopefully this unlike my Uni Thread wil take off quickly.

Heh...I'd be willing to organize that. I think one was started about a year ago, but it ended up falling through, if I remember correctly. That was the first attempt I had seen at an NS world war.

You can't organize World Wars, they just happen.

However that doesn't mean you can't organise a catalyst, I'm fairly sure that there was a fair deal of negotiation behind the scenes between Kraven and Xirnium when the AKA was formed.

However that doesn't mean you can't organise a catalyst, I'm fairly sure that there was a fair deal of negotiation behind the scenes between Kraven and Xirnium when the AKA was formed.

True, but the scale is the issue here. The Kraven/AKA/AMF/Consortium war is nothing more than an everyday war. There aren't enough participants or enough 'big names' to even make that war anything out of the ordinary, regardless of how good the material is.

"Everyday war"? That phrase seems especially morbid in today's age...

"Everyday war"? That phrase seems especially morbid in today's age...


Welcome to II.

Given that Knoot's power-wank theory is correct there can never be a super alliance.

Perhaps there can never be one in today's NS or in the future, but the one-time existance of a so-called super alliance cannot be denied.

GDODAD was that alliance and the majority of nations actually RPed fear of them. The few nations that opposed them were in constant war. GDODAD was the alliance at one time.

Welcome to II.

Yah, that's why I stay in my little shell, RP with my little friends, and, well, war with my enemy-little-friends...Trust me - a well-planned war can be really good...me and GE's is evidence.

God, but sometimes I wish that one year ago, when I began NationStates RP'ing I'd first RP'ed on NS, not II. I'm a character RP'er at heart (see the links in my signature - all basically character RP's) and now I can't leave II...

*sigh*

You can't organize World Wars, they just happen.

However, with all the numbers of alliances today and the nature of war on NS, there can never be a war large enough to be considered a "World War."

First of all, it cannot be done well. There is no way to keep track of enough nations in a war that size.

Second, you can get 200 nations together and say there's a world war, but there will still be thousands uneffected. To them, this life-changing event doesn't matter at all.

Third, "World" doesn't mean big anymore. Myself, I just completed a 8+ World War that was well-written, but only effective because it had a total of two or three main participants. The fact remains, the Earth isn't the end all anymore, its not the biggest battleground. NS is as expansive as the Universe.

I'm a character RP'er at heart (see the links in my signature - all basically character RP's) and now I can't leave II...

...you do know that there are more character RP's in NationStates as opposed to II...?

...you do know that there are more character RP's in NationStates as opposed to II...?

That's what I'm saying - that I'm a real character RP'er, but I've made close friends at I.I. and don't have the time to RP in two forums (or is it fora?).

Never mind.

Perhaps there can never be one in today's NS or in the future, but the one-time existance of a so-called super alliance cannot be denied.

GDODAD was that alliance and the majority of nations actually RPed fear of them. The few nations that opposed them were in constant war. GDODAD was the alliance at one time.

Indeed it was. I miss those good old days, back when there were few enough nations you actually did have to tread in fear of the powerhouses, especially because back in the day, if you ignored a declaration of war, everybody hated you. So everyone walked on eggshells around GDODAD because they didn't want a war with the only real superpower there's ever been.

Nowadays there's so many nations and it seems to have evolved to be so different that that simply doesn't happen anymore. Especially the part about ignoring declarations of war. Just yesterday I watched an IC generalization by an IC government get called an OOC insult and ignored. Sad.

That's what I'm saying - that I'm a real character RP'er, but I've made close friends at I.I. and don't have the time to RP in two forums (or is it fora?).

Never mind.

Ah...I get ya. I've always been in NS outside of a few occasions from a LONG time ago. It works out pretty good for me.

especially because back in the day, if you ignored a declaration of war, everybody hated you.

Exactly. The right to ignore has ruined nation roleplaying. That's one of the main reasons why, long ago, I went to character-oriented roleplaying.

I spent some time in II back when it first got started, then after a few months gave up because it moved so fast and most of it was just wars and noobs, that I gave up and went to NS for good. I didn't go back to II except occasionally when I was really bored up til the day I quit.

Then when I came back, I found I couldn't really get started in NS because most stuff in there has been running for a while or is closed. So I'm biding my time, slowly shifting over to NS, waiting for new RPs to open so I can pounce and join them. Until such time as I can fully switch to NS, I'll be at least partly in II. I imagine it will go much quicker once I get off my ass and post in Moderation asking to move my revival thread into NS.

I've never liked numbers-based roleplaying. Back in the day, I was always all-out character roleplay. I tried number-crunching once and hated it, so I gave up and went back to the characters. That's why I liked the NationStates forum so much more than all that.

no, being the evil nation you are. You will be remembered, somewhere around Gdodad level. As you fought AMF - one of the most well known nations, and you created a memorable/original nation. and all in half a year. Whilst i started of young, naive and ignorant.
Indeed. Much to the High Ecclesiarchy's dismay, TKC lives in death or alive. Whether you leave NS or not, it doesn't matter TKC. You've been matyred for all eternity on NS.

Indeed. Much to the High Ecclesiarchy's dismay, TKC lives in death or alive. Whether you leave NS or not, it doesn't matter TKC. You've been matyred for all eternity on NS.You know, I doubt this. There are many people who started serious shit in II icly, but are only remembered by a very small group.

You know, I doubt this. There are many people who started serious shit in II icly, but are only remembered by a very small group.

Well, if I am remembered by at least one person, then it makes Nationstates all the more worth while.

Yeah, I miss the terrorist fad where puppet nations were used to get at your enemies using terrorists without any explainations as to how they are supported and why they just exist to create terror.

I agree... it feels duller probably because people have actually gotten to be more realistic (ironically) and as such we don't find as many random wars over something as petty as an insult, lets face it... we secretly like crazy nations because it gives us something to shout at.
Good things as well as bad things have happened, but it isnt all good. I agree with you that wars are less common as II has become more realistic, but the "realistic" ways nations get at each other - trade, taking advantage of random events, Etc. just never happen in NS because everyone can easily say "That doesnt affect me." without having to back up this assertion like they would by saying in a war that someone's guns dont affect them. *sigh*

Well, Praetonia, when Torontia fell into anarchy thanks to Yallak, I wasn't effected because my nation's administration is not imperialistic and it had no political, military or economic ties with Torontia. And Guffingford, as long as one NS player remembers TKC, he has been immortalized for all eternity.