NationStates Jolt Archive

Duchy of Saxony

Population: 500,000
Government type: Feudal
Ruler: Duke Magnus Billung
Wife: Gertrude Billung
Heirs: Hermann
Heiress: Eilika, Wulfhild
Ducal Seat:Luneburg
Territory: Duchy of Saxony, includes towns of Goslar, Bremen and Hamburg
includes bisphoric of Hamburg-Bremen,
Religon: Catholic
Language: German
Military:
Feudal levy: ~1100 knights with ~3500 adtentant men-at-arms,
Urban militias: 1000
Personal Ducal forces: ~400 knights, and ~600 Ministerial heavy cavalry with 3000 personal men-at-arms of the Duke (these are quicker to muster and organize than the feudal levy)
peasants may be called up for service but this is extremely rare
Norse exiles: 12 longships and 500 men
300 Knights and 700 men-at-arms sailing for England, half ducal half levy, to aid in the subjugation of Wales. Were returning but turned around to join the English in Northumbria. Another 150 Ministerial cavalry and 300 ducal men-at-arms standing reading to join if necessary.
In vassalage to: Holy Roman Empire
Allies: Kingdom of England
Royal Marriages:
Enemies:

Note: ministerials are low-born, unfree servants to their ruler, which serve as civil servants and are often trained and equipt as knights but remain non-noble
Most economic activity is agricultural in nature, but Bremen is an important town on the North Sea and Hamburg, while currently small (pop ~1000), is rapidly developing as a seaport and centre for trade, and increasing in size
Goslar is a wealthy inland town.
Most land is held by barons sworn to the Duke, but a large amount is held directly by either House Billung or as land held directly by the duke and parcelled out for service.

fortifications are being built by major lords and the German Emporer. Military is nearly entirely feudal (as is nearly all of europe at this time). Knights are heavily armed cavarlymen, equipt with chainmail hauberks, shields, lances, swords and other hand weapons. Men-at-arms are basic infantry with axes, swords, maces, spears etc. with sheilds and varying usualy outdated, second-hand armour (scale or increasingly chain mail). Some are equipt with crossbows for fortress garrison. Peasants are poorly equipted with polearms, mauls, spears or even pitchforks, and no armour, some carry basic bows, (usually hunting). Urban militia are generaly of a higher quality, some having crossbows and others with polearms or long spears with shields either no or minimal armour.
The Duke does not underestimate the Norse raiders emerging, and a system of defenses has been prepared on the coast line and river entrances.

The Catholic Church has significant influence, the clergy are the most educated members of society and are heavily included in administration. The duke has considerable influence on the church men, almost as much as the pope as he has great deal, unofficially, in church apointments, simony (selling church titles) is a common way to raise funds.
Feel free to comment

Duke Magnus Billung grimaced as he listened to the latest news of Norse raids in Denmark; rumors were already coming of raids in Flanders as well, and he knew that his shoreline was just as vulnerable.

The pagan rebellion in Norway came as a shock to him. His mother was a Norwegian princess and he was therefore cousin to the exiled king. As soon as it looked like the rebels would overwelm royal opposition he sent out word that he was willing to harbour those that had the resources to flee. Already many had taken him up on the offer.

Watch towers were now maned at the exits of the rivers flowing through his lands, especially the Elbe and Weser which the towns of Bremen and Hamburg were on. Networks of riders also were set up.

"This crisis has its share of opportunity though," he reflected. "When the Norse came a-viking llast time the chaos allowed regional noblemen to seize kingly power." Already he had plans to exploit the situation for an old ambition...

Bremen is an important town on the North Sea, currently ruled by the Bishop of Bremen-Hamburg. Magnus Billung, Herzog von Sashen (Duke of Saxony) arranged a metting with the Church Father to change that.

The priest was all sympathy for the atrocities commited on good Catholics by the Heathens, until Magnus mentioned ceding eccalistical lands to his military authority. The coupe de grace came when he causualy mentioned "my knights are spread thin as it is, if you think your defences are sufficent I'd be happy to devote them to defending the poor men who need it. And if you are attack we all know the respect the Heathens gave the men of god they captured." The city and the surronding lands his he moved to the next stage in his plan.

The best way to keep the Norsemen of during their last raids was to hire some of your own. This time around, Duke Billung was confedant he was the only one with that option. Catholic exiles from Norway at his invitation had come to his lands, their wealth was added to the Ducal coffers in return for land along the mouths of his rivers, with oaths of loyalty and service. From these he had enough to form a small fleet of his own longships, 12 crewed by 500 exiles. He also planned to have them train his native men in seamanship.

For is next move he arranged 1000 men to board trade cogs in Bremen, and ordered them to sail for London

The next stage in Saxony's preparations against the savage Norse began, with small parties of knights being lodged in strongholds guarding the vulnerable coasts. With the town of Bremen now under the Duke's control the town walls began being brought to a state of good repair, town watches set, and a small force of ducal men-at-arms comfortable billeted in the town. Similar precautions were set up in lesser towns, and watch towers to guard the entrence to the Elbe and the Weser were nearly finished.

(Nice counter measures, but one small problem. There would naturally be refugees to Saxony, but they would be the Christian of Christian refugee's. Not the seafairing Vikings that know how to build longboats or even how to fight, but the scared rich Christian Nobles forced out of the country. They really wont be much help in raiding (Christianity was the reason for the end of the Viking Raids) or in building ships. Nevertheless, the best way to keep the Viking Raiding bands from attacking you is to pay tribute to the Frozen Throne. If you pay tribute to Rachejk, any Viking that attacks you is as good as dead. Dont pay tribute, he doesn't give a damn.)

OCC im thinking that the christians that would be able to manage to escape would be ones with access to ships, and although the noble would have little knowledge they'd have men in their service who know how about seamanship who the nobles would naturally take with them on a hazardous escape by the sea. i was imagining something like the men of the leidung which were the Norse's own response to vikings, stiffened by a body of trained warriors in service to their lords. I don't expect the nobles themselves to be much use beyond supsidizing me with the wealth they escaped with, its the men they brought to guard them on the way out im using to establish my maritime defense. These men may not be raiders, but they'll know how to sail a ship and how to fight, especially against the vikings that would have been their primary enemy during the christianizing period. I thought this one through.

(The people 'Loyal' to the Nobles are the paid soldiers and mercenaries. The Nobles first off, rarely escaped, and if they did, they had very little money with them. If you take that money, those 'loyal' men, no longer have any reason to serve the nobles, and would most likely look to more prosperous opportunities (back to Norway perhaps?). The Christians with fighting knoledge, all went to fight in the Revolution, and are now either dead, or working as slaves in the East. All Christian Soldiers, including those of the Nobles were killed, converted or captured in a string of battles in which the country collapsed. The vast majority of Nobles were also killed, most fled to Ireland due to having ties to the Norse colonies there. Longships were very rare in Christian Norway, they were used mainly by raiders, if the Nobles had any, they were siezed. The only way the nobles got to Saxony would be by buying their way onto a merchant ship with their families and sailing away. The Christians were poor fighters, thus why died. Saxon macemen were historically great fighters, I dont see the point of hiring a bunch of loser refugee Christians as your army. And 500 is an extremely high number for Saxony. The majority fled to Ireland, then secondly to Sweden, then Denmark, then England, then Saxony, then a combination of other German States. If Saxony had 500 refugees, that would total some 15-20 thousand people, which is a massive slice of my population, whom, for the most part, did not flee. Most people did not have enough money to buy passage on a boat. And those that did, could not, for revolutionaries quickly hit coastal cities from within, and shut down passage out of the cities. At most, 75-100 people made it to Saxony. And those 75-100 are wealthy Christian Nobles/Merchants/Priests/Business men/Government Officials, and they're coming as poor, weak peasents (The Rebels stole anything and everything they had). Not soldiers. Not seamen. And they're comin over on trade cogs, not Viking Longboats. They cant be considered a military force, they have no fighting expirience, no seamanship expirience... nothing but a little money.)

OCC: I figured there were enough christian warrior who saw a losing cause and got out before they'd end up dead and would travel to a lord whose offering service in return for some land.
If you'd look up the leidang system i'd mentioned you'd see that plenty of jarls would have access to fighting ships crewed by men who'd have experience fighting piracy. Now im sure alot of these men would have died in the revolution but after it became apparent that the pagans would win they'd try to get away in their handy ships, carting off what wealth they had. At first they'd go anywhere that they think would be safe but once my guy got word out that they could live in a way near to their old status dont you think they'd jump at the opportunity? Enough time as gone by after the revolution for people to start heading over. Plus, i think a some members of the ruling dynasty would look to a powerful relative for protection.
Now id be willing to reduce the number if you object, but dont make a blanket statement that they all died. I guess some would choose to fight and die for a losing cause, but i think some would take their chances to get the hell out of there, packing up their valubles before boarding their ships before the howling barbarians could get to them.
Plus my region has some ties to Norway as well. My dukes mother was a Norwegian princess and Bremen was the Bishophoric that led the conversion of Scandanavia to Christianity.
Finally it isn't a mans religon that determines how good a fighter he is, it is his experience and training.
If you dont want me to have any, i guess are positions are irreconsilable enough to bring in a mod to arbitrate.

By the way, thanks for the tip on the macemen, I should look into that. I just built my army standard german empire.

OOC: The Revolution never looked as if the Pagans were going to win. The entire ordeal was dealt with as a small bandit insurgency up north, the Ruling Dynasty painted the situation as if nothing was going on. It was never a serious threat until Oslo fell, which ended the war. Thus, people never began fleeing until they saw the rebels. The entire war was a trap. The Coastal Cities in the South and West had unexpected Mini-Revolutions, cutting off any possible escape to the sea. Most Norsemen were poor. The ones who were trapped and decided to lay low, did that. The amount of money it would cost to leave and start over was not had, so the people stayed, and slowly but surely their Christian roots were crumbled. Longboats were not common in Christian Norway, so once a group of Christian Soldiers decided to flee, what were they to do? They dont have a boat of their own, so they go to the Coastal Cities to buy one, or steal one. What do they find when they arrive? They fine the cities in ruin, rebels looting and pillaging. There is no way out, so they simply hide their weapons under their beds, and go with the flow. Now by the time things have settled down, they are still poor, and do not have enough money to leave. They stay, and slowly forget their old ways, and simply go along with it, trying to stay alive.

When the nobles try to leave, they have to leave through a port city. The port cities hosted mini-revolutions, even while the main fighting was occuring farther north. If you read the Revolution, you'll realise there was no escape. You could not simply go to a coastal city, find a lord and go with him. First, the cities are burning, rebels have taken nearly everything. Second, by the time the nobles realised this was more than a bandit insurgency, they were dead.

The Norse may have some hereditary ties to royalty in Saxony, but what do they care? The Royal Family of Norway failed. Nobody, not the Christians, not the Pagans have any love for them. They go to Ireland because of the Christian-Norse Settlements there. They go to Sweden because its the closest place. The number of people heading to Saxony would not be high enough to make a military force.

And religion, historically made the difference. What killed the Vikings? Was it an Army? A Plague? No. It was Christianity. The ideals of Christianity prevent the savage brutality with which the Vikings fight. Thus, their soldiers are less savage, and less effective.

I am not saying they all died in the Revolution. I am saying, by the time they realised a Revolution was taking place, their only chance of escape was shut off.

after rereading through the revolution i'll agree that i can't go with my initial plan, I forgot about the mini-revolutions and the king's denial of their being a problem.

will you accept in its place my duke, inspired through his Norse heritage, hiring a few ships worth of men from across the Viking world with some vetrans of fighting viking raiders in the old days to run the coastal defenses, supplementing them with ships build and maned from the trading towns, using a varient on the leidang system to support the arrangement? The Norse of the viking era were famous for being both easily hired, and good mercenaries so long as you had a strong leader and regular pay to keep them in line.

Well, it would be nearly immpossible to hire the Veterans fighting against the Vikings from the old days, for historically, the Vikings were all but dead by 1000 AD, any Viking fighter from the old day is at least 100 years old.

Now hiring one of the Lieutenants (Leaders of the Raiding Towns) to set up coastal defences on Saxony, that is possible. Simply write a letter to one of them, and he will ask for a load of money, and it will be done. However, other raiders may still raid the country, and if for some reason, Rachejk order's your hired Lieutenant to stand down, he will simply take his money and sail back to his city. All of the Vikings work for a Lieutenant, all of the Lieutenants work for Rachejk. If you made a deal with a Lieutenant, then he would control the defences, the men would take orders from him, and you would have limited control over them. (Id just RP as the Mercenary Force) If you noticed, there is currently a force of 2,000 Raiders working as mercenaries for Kievan Rus against rebels.

However, hiring a Lieutenant is far more expensive, and less effective than paying tribute to Rachejk.

the vikings diminished after 1000, but they weren't entirely dead. They declined after 1000 which was but were significant enough for historians to use the defeat at stamford bridgein 1066 to mark the end of the era. For example norse pirates operated out of Scotland into the 1200s. Indeed, if they were completely gone how would your people still know how to raid just as well as they did before if it was completely extinguished. I'd accuse you of godmoding your raids going without a hitch if I didn't think your populace was only recently completely out of the viking age. And it was increased the increased defenses of the raided lands making raiding less profitable along with the newly Christian kings cracking down on private expeditions as much as the conversion to Christianity that stopped the raids. I dont object to your raiders having the succes rate of the good old days for now because all the rich lands that used to be able to fight them off have put down their guard after a period of peace.
Im talking about hiring some men who have fought piracy in the North Sea and other areas, there still should be enough of them kicking around to lead a mercenary force of Scandanavians with ships (with the leidang there should be quite a few in Sweden and Denmark) in return for land. I probably could find enough to crew a squadron and be dam grateful for the opportunity.

OOC: You should probably go accuse me of godmodding and bring this up with Phil then, because in this RP, as in history, the Vikings were a very small, nearly exterminated group in 1087. The only reason they come back, is because of my revolution, not because they were already there. In 1000, they were nearly gone. A few small tribes may remain, but that is it. They only return because of the Revolution. If you want to know how my people know how to raid, read my RP. The entire RP. The Christian fighters are either dead, enslaved, or hiding. They are not going to Saxony to fight for you. I am controling Norway, not you, not anyone else. If you want to use my people to defend your land, you're gonna do it by my rules, according to my RP. There are no 'Christian Soldiers' just ready to jump up and fight for Saxony. It has been two years since the end of the Revolution. Those that did fight against the Vikings, have now given up and decided just to go along with the flow of the country. Or they're working in mines as slaves... or possibly six feet under the ground. Those that refused, have been murdered over the last two years. The Christians with expirience in fighting the Norse, are gone. Those that live, are very few in number, and dont really feel like risking their lives for people they dont give a damn about. Once again. You're not taking 500 of my people and using them as soldiers. Complain to Phil if you want, but you're not getting them. Regarding longboats? The Christians dont know how to make them, especially the nobles and merchants (which is all you have), so the only way you get longboats, is by making them yourself.

And raiding, isnt some kind of art that takes hundreds of years to perfect. My people 'learned' out to raid in the revolution. If you read the entire RP, you'll understand alot more than you do right now.

you objected to my inducing exiles to errect a defense at after our discussion I offered to look to the other member of the Scandanavian world for men with the skills i wanted. True the old way of raiding had severly declined over the 11th century, but it was such a big part of their way of life made an educated guess that there were still men on the fringes of Scandanavian society who would try to make a living that way. Thats why I think the revival of the raids was something I could live with. While raiding may not be something that need centuries to perfect, i would definately say to sail to a foreign land undetected and to get in and out in a matter of hours is something that would take a little bit of practice to pull of if none of them had done it before, and it wouldn't be too unlikely for an inexperienced boatload to pull a blunder that in a hostile land gets them all killed. I read your RP, you don't mention the revolutionaries ever preforming a complex shipborn raid during the revolt.
Im not claiming that these men would feel any particularly great urge to serve Saxony, but a generous grant of land to live on and pass to your heirs would probably interest some of the spare population of Scandanavia. As for any expatriats, i wouldn't necessarly need them, but i wasn't talking about them all imediately rushing to my lands, but those that had escaped hearing about my offer an choosing to go were they could live with status rather than on sufferance in whatever place they ended up. The middle ages is one long demonstration in that men will rather fight for the man who gives them a good position than ties of loyalty.
Im also not suggesting a modification of anything in how you run your kingdom but im not going to lie back at let you dictate my options. I'm not going to hire your men when there's more reliable ones around and im not going to let you use the threat of force to scare me into buying you off. I'm going to work out my own ways of dealing with the situation and we can either come to an amicable decision on what you and me can do. Norway is yours but Saxony is mine so lets have a constructive discussion about it. Im willing to compromise to your point of view, be willing to do the same.

Oh, and its not like longboat building is some strange "special power" of Norse paganism. The snajjka was a ship exported Normandy to Russia not an exclusive domain of a few heathen of Norway. Even if it was just Scandanavian I believe there are two other Scandanavian kingdoms, both of which may be smaller geographically but a lot more densely populated than yours.

OOC:Bottom Line. Your Military says there are 500 Norse Exiles serving as soldiers. If there are 500 capable fighters from Norway, that means there are at least 1,500 total exiles in Saxony. Ireland has triple that according to my RP, 4,500. Sweden has double that, 3,000. Denmark has double that, 3,000. France and other German states have equal that, 1,500. 13,000 people is a massive slice of my population considering the number of people that died in the revolution. I decide where my people go. You cannot say, "Its my country, so I can take your people and make them fight for me."

To make this simple, all Christian-Norse Exiles fled to the Christian-Norse Colonies in Ireland. They did not go to Saxony. You want Scandinavian soldiers defending your land? Fine, they are not from Norway. There are no Norse people in Saxony. You are not simply going to go into my country and say, "Oooo, ill take five hundred of those... and..."

You dont have 500 Norse Veteran Christian Soldiers. All Norse Veteran Christian Soldiers are in ireland. You want some kind of Scandivian people to work for you? Go ask whoever is RPing Sweden or Denmark. Hope this makes it simple enough... there are no Norse people in Saxony with any expirience in fighting. They have all followed their King to Ireland. Therefor, no 500 Norse Soldiers.

EDIT: In addition, if you read it all, you would notice the line which stated, "The attacks/raids which I RP as happening are the main attacks/raids. There are other smaller raids going on constantly." Those smaller raids (100-300 People) are naval assaults.