NationStates Jolt Archive

I have always wondered how, in the FT setting, colonists (or invaders) landing on a new world always know exactly where they are. It would seem that FT RPers (myself included) have some sort of unseen, unexplained technology that allows them to pinpoint their whereabouts without the use of satellites. How is this possible?

I guess you could place starships in orbit to act as transmitters/receivers, but if there is an enemy fleet up there, it would be ill advised.

Please, post your theorys on this, or maybe just what you use instead of GPS.

What's wrong with a device the size of your finger nail scanning an entire planet and updating its data every few seconds? (joke)

I suppose that if one had any prior intell (normal weather attacking or coming in peace), they could use it and the land marks around them for it. The only situation where one would be without prior info or a ship above would be a crash landing in an uncharted place, most of which are RPed as such.

Landmarks are fine for a local location finding, but if all the landmarks were on the otherside of the planet, then what? Take, for instance, the world I made for a friend of mine. It is a giant, frozen waterworld with only a single strip of land around part of the equator. The rest of the planet is constantly shifting ice and oxygen-snow.

That is an interesting question, it can be assumed by some that their ships are scanning the worlds and using their sensors as a poor man's GPS system or they could be using cloaked fighters equiped with a GPS style system.
There are to many answers to that question to count and to many counters to those answers.

HUD that scans your velocity and direction, all the while updating a map downloaded into it? That's how I'd do it.

That's easy, we're all using our magical technology in our magical ships, magically scanning with magical sensors, that magically know where everything is.


I'd actually say that we just track where our people are. I mean, we've got computers that can track ships in hyperspace. Mere planets can't be that hard.

It might even be one of the most widely accepted wanks or godmods in RPs ever. (Maybe not as far as godmods and wanks, but yeah.)

However, regardless of how anybody might be do it, it's probably left unmentioned for the sake of story, and practicality.

Forgive the somewhat lengthy answer to follow.

I am not a big fan of sci-fi RP here in International Incidents; most of it is not what I would call science fiction at all: it’s science fantasy, a/k/a “space opera”. I like my fantasy and sci-fi separate, thank you, and so consequently none of my puppets mix the two, except perhaps this one (which is why I’m using it to answer).

In “soft” sci-fi (that part of the genre which I have derided above as “fantasy”), you can of course invent any old gizmo you want to deal with the situation, just like you can give your explorers “universal translators” to avoid that annoying problem of interspecies communication. In “hard” sci-fi (the kind I prefer) you don’t have that luxury – unless you can explain how something works (with only a few commonly agreed-upon exceptions, like FTL travel [and then only sometimes]), you have to get on without it.

Thus, my true PMT/FT puppets do in fact bring along both navigational and weather satellites (not to mention satellites for geological studies, mapping, and communication). Establishing a colony’s satellite network is part of the process of laying down a colony.

Narodna Odbrana is the one exception to that rule, partly because it is not really a sci-fi entity; its “sci-fi” adventures are based on the some of the concepts (but not the technology) described in the Michael Crichton book (and movie) Timeline, wherein the protagonists travel to a parallel universe within the quantum multiverse (actually, what we do is more like that cheesy series on the Sci-Fi Channel called “Sliders”). Add in some fantasy elements (drawn from the writings of Howard Philip Lovecraft [“Beyond the Mountains of Madness”], as well as derivative works such as those of T. E. D. Klein [“The Man With the Horm”]), and you have the “other” worlds in which Narodna Odbrana may (sometimes) appear.

In worlds such as these, lofting a GPS system is impossible, so other arrangements need to be made. Most often, this comes down to a reliance on native maps and guides – which is obviously of little use to would-be FT colonists. Recently, however, I have encountered the problem of navigation at sea in a parallel world whose technology is basically that found on 16th Century Earth - and worse, doing so in the Pacific Ocean Basin during that time period, where there was actually more “modern” (meaning Renaissance Era) technology floating around than you might suspect. After all, in Europe you can feel your way around by following the coasts; in the Pacific, however, you’ve got a great deal of ocean to get lost in…

Narodna Odbrana’s SOP when involved in “temporal” ops is not to leave anything behind that would present future historians with an enigma; that comes down to not using modern technology in front of the locals (unless it can be passed off as magic, and then only if that “magic” would fit within the local cultural milieu [for example, the use of holographic projections and sound equipment to create an apparition or manifestation of a Hindu god, the Virgin Mary, or something of that nature – usually with the assistance of props and actors]). Modern technology (like computers or silenced pistols) can be used where they can’t be seen or will leave no trace – usually for planning, intelligence analysis, or (in the case of weaponry) terminating interlopers.

Navigation without GPS begins with astrogation: a mariner’s sextant or surveyor’s theodolite can easily fix latitude. To fix longitude you need ephermides (tables providing information that can be used to calculate the times at which various celestial objects rise or set) and steady (meaning reliable) clocks (historically, the advent of spring-driven chronometers was one of the greatest breakthroughs in maritime history).

A compass – or a prominent celestial body (like a sun or moon) can give you north and south (magnetic in the former case, celestial in the latter). That’s not a good as fixing latitude, but it’s faster and most laymen can handle it.

You can also use dead reckoning; estimate the distance you've travelled along a gven bearing, and plot that on a map. This is quite unreliable, so you’ll want to check results against other methods of navigation frequently.

If you can generate a radio broadcast from a single location (in our 16th Century Earth, this would be a well concealed radio transmitter in the Aleutians or Kuriles), preferably one that broadcasts the time (per some pre-established standard, like Universal Time [UT] - just in case a party’s watch stops or is running off), and you have directional radio-finding gear, you can sometimes fix your position by shooting the sun(s), moon(s), or stars (to get longitude) and then comparing that to the bearing of your radio beacon. This will be less accurate as you travel further from your beacon; it may also be unreliable with certain radio bands (where propagation varies per conditions in the ionosphere; this is where magnetic storms and solar flares can mess things up badly).

This is why you might want to drop two or three beacons in separate locations to achieve triangulation, the method used by mariners to fix their positions prior to the advent of GPS; a system of planetary navigation beacons might be less expensive than a GPS system (and then again, depending on the problems involved in traversing the world’s surface, it might not be…), but it would certainly be more survivable.

On aircraft and ships, gyroscopes can be used to determine position relative to a fixed point; on land vehicles (excepting grav platforms and other fantastic machines), gyroscopes would be less useful due to jostling.

Could you navigate from just the position of a single ship in orbit? Probably. You could certainly use the ship’s transit times (relative to the observer) to fix longitude, especially if you either have an atomic clock or the ship is broadcasting a time signal; you could also use the ship’s relative position in the sky during its transit to determine longitude. All this assumes that the ship is in a normal orbit, making no changes to that orbit. It also assumes that you can either get a visual on the ship (the way some satellites can be observed from Earth) or have radio gear than can actually determine the direction from whence a signal comes.

I hope this helps.

That is an interesting question, it can be assumed by some that their ships are scanning the worlds and using their sensors as a poor man's GPS system or they could be using cloaked fighters equiped with a GPS style system.
There are to many answers to that question to count and to many counters to those answers.
I must agree.. with both statements on this one.

It might even be one of the most widely accepted wanks or godmods in RPs ever. (Maybe not as far as godmods and wanks, but yeah.)

However, regardless of how anybody might be do it, it's probably left unmentioned for the sake of story, and practicality.Funny. I just worked out some of this stuff yesterday in preparation for a story line (“Asian Vacation”) that’s a spinoff from the current thread re: Xharn’s nuclear weapons program (“The Kingdom of Xharn Starts Nuclear Program [MT Open]”). I’m taking a ship full of convicts that I bought from Xharn to a parallel universe (the one I mentioned above, where 16th Century technology is in general use). The ship will arrive from a region similar to the Bermuda Triangle (I thought of this before the Sci-Fi Channel began advertising “The Triangle”; it’s how Narodna Odbrana gets around between parallel Earths); its crew will not, however, know the ship’s exact position upon arrival or even the exact time. Hence, the use of a time signal broadcast from that secret radio transmitter in the North Pacific, which the crew can use to set their clocks and – once the sky clears – shoot their position via sextant.

More generally, I think that sometimes the little details can make for better RP – but maybe that’s just me…

Funny. I just worked out some of this stuff yesterday in preparation for a story line (“Asian Vacation”) that’s a spinoff from the current thread re: Xharn’s nuclear weapons program (“The Kingdom of Xharn Starts Nuclear Program [MT Open]”). I’m taking a ship full of convicts that I bought from Xharn to a parallel universe (the one I mentioned above, where 16th Century technology is in general use). The ship will arrive from a region similar to the Bermuda Triangle (I thought of this before the Sci-Fi Channel began advertising “The Triangle”; it’s how Narodna Odbrana gets around between parallel Earths); its crew will not, however, know the ship’s exact position upon arrival or even the exact time. Hence, the use of a time signal broadcast from that secret radio transmitter in the North Pacific, which the crew can use to set their clocks and – once the sky clears – shoot their position via sextant.

More generally, I think that sometimes the little details can make for better RP – but maybe that’s just me…

Not a bad idea at all. Though, as you can see, it's mentioned in your story line because it's a necessary piece of the tale. If it wasn't, would you still mention it? Well, I don't claim to know the answer, but I'm sure you understand what I mean.

EDIT: Your taste for the little details in pretty interesting, I'll say. It's funny how it shows in your posts. TBH, I'd like to be more detailed, but usually I just don't feel it to be necessary, or worth it on some occasions.

or they could be using cloaked fighters equipped with a GPS style system.

True, you could do that. It would seem to me that a courier ship or scout vessel would be better equipped, as they tend to have more cargo space, but I get the idea.

HUD that scans your velocity and direction, all the while updating a map downloaded into it? That's how I'd do it.

That would take a long, long time, assuming that you were in an atmospheric craft. You could do it in short order with a starship, but then all you would have is a map. You still wouldn’t be able to pinpoint one's location without GPS or its equivalent.

we've got computers that can track ships in hyperspace. Mere planets can't be that hard.

Oh, but do we? I seem to recall that no Sci-Fi story I have ever read actually tracks the ships while in transit. They always have a launch point and an arrival point, and they know they are somewhere in-between. Of course, if could be different on NS, and I do have a rather bad memory, so I could be wrong on this.

Thus, my true PMT/FT puppets do in fact bring along both navigational and weather satellites (not to mention satellites for geological studies, mapping, and communication). Establishing a colony’s satellite network is part of the process of laying down a colony.

That is an excellent idea! You can bet your socks that future Einhauserian ships will be equipped with sats now, hehe.

Navigation without GPS begins with astrogation: a mariner’s sextant or surveyor’s theodolite can easily fix latitude. To fix longitude you need ephermides (tables providing information that can be used to calculate the times at which various celestial objects rise or set) and steady (meaning reliable) clocks (historically, the advent of spring-driven chronometers was one of the greatest breakthroughs in maritime history).

A compass – or a prominent celestial body (like a sun or moon) can give you north and south (magnetic in the former case, celestial in the latter). That’s not a good as fixing latitude, but it’s faster and most laymen can handle it.

Bit crude, but yes, that could work.

If you can generate a radio broadcast from a single location, preferably one that broadcasts the time (per some pre-established standard, like Universal Time [UT] - just in case a party’s watch stops or is running off), and you have directional radio-finding gear, you can sometimes fix your position by shooting the sun(s), moon(s), or stars (to get longitude) and then comparing that to the bearing of your radio beacon. This will be less accurate as you travel further from your beacon; it may also be unreliable with certain radio bands (where propagation varies per conditions in the ionosphere; this is where magnetic storms and solar flares can mess things up badly).

An interesting idea, and one to be developed. I am not well versed in radio wave stuff, so I couldn’t really say if it would work. Of course, who am I to judge? I am guilty of the same crime of auto-knowing where I am on a world.

This is why you might want to drop two or three beacons in separate locations to achieve triangulation, the method used by mariners to fix their positions prior to the advent of GPS; a system of planetary navigation beacons might be less expensive than a GPS system (and then again, depending on the problems involved in traversing the world’s surface, it might not be…), but it would certainly be more survivable.

Interesting idea. I imagine it is significantly less accurate than GPS. Plus I doubt a GPS guided smart bomb or missile could navigate with it.

More generally, I think that sometimes the little details can make for better RP – but maybe that’s just me…

:( I have come to believe that my RPs are too detail-oriented, and that is why they all fail. I actually need less detail...

In response to your, uh, response, I was always under the impression that being able to follow ships after they've jumped to Hyper, meant that naturally, we'd be able to track their path.

How do they know how far away they are from somewhere, and the time when they will arrive if they don't know where they are in the middle of the transit?

(I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, I just really don't know...)

True, you could do that. It would seem to me that a courier ship or scout vessel would be better equipped, as they tend to have more cargo space, but I get the idea.
I'm glad you see what I mean. Though sometimes you have to remember that scout/courier ships can be larger targets, not avaliable at the time, and other reasons why they aren't being used. Though if you think about it a fighter has the ability to be faster at the cost of quality can be key in a battle as well as the the loss of a possibly cheaper fighter and one or two people (maybe more) than a scoutship of possibly more with more expensive equipment and such.

But yes this is one topic that can be debated for months and every point brought up can be countered. So unless said that their is some jamming system or something else it is instantly assumed that a GPS like system is in play.

I have always wondered how, in the FT setting, colonists (or invaders) landing on a new world always know exactly where they are. It would seem that FT RPers (myself included) have some sort of unseen, unexplained technology that allows them to pinpoint their whereabouts without the use of satellites. How is this possible?

I guess you could place starships in orbit to act as transmitters/receivers, but if there is an enemy fleet up there, it would be ill advised.

Please, post your theorys on this, or maybe just what you use instead of GPS.
They can scan the planet and pinpoint their exact position. It isn't that difficult.

I know I haven't actually rped out the use of this system very much, since I rarely have invaded other worlds anyway.

But in my mindset with the technologies used, I'd prefer an interlinked-interlayer net system of Intel, fleet orbital deployment with ship systems, micro-minaturized isonenear probe satellites that are released in a cloud to cover the planet rather effectively and efficiently, and ground based tactical real-time systems like C4I, recon reports, starfighter scans over focused battlefields, with all this uploaded to commanders both in orbit, and to ground based command platforms that usually enter the battlefield.

Aye, probably hindsight explanation here, but again I've been mainly involved in ship to ship combat, over ground combat. The command-control functions are just rped in the background on my end, though I've tried to rp at least a bit out at times, preparation for any operations, strategic and tactical.

Really though, if we're going to worry over the detail of things like real-time intel over a target battlefield in orbit around some planet, then 'all' aspects of a military operation have to be brought to light, to a point where threads are bogged down and slowed, no matter how much anyone particularly thinks otherwise. Not trying to start an argument or anything, but aye, most military support aspects are usually not mentioned.

The question though is, is a thread that falls under this discussion, being done with lack of support mention, on basis for a good story, or the act of a newb that just wants to go space-Rambo on everyone. Personally I don't have the biceps to be Rambo, so I just try to stick to the former ideal.

But then again, ALL of rping is a godmod, boiled down to the painful fact that we're rping the impossible. Especially the FTers. Like it or not, we're not as much worrying about godmoding, as much worrying if were having fun, and having a good story. In the end, I don't really care about all of this, since the discussion here is usually based on the actions on NSer does to another NSer. An NSer to an NPC target won't get the same discussion. Like it or nor.

So, I'll just stick to my end of the poop deck, and can it for now. =^^=

Why invade when you can bombard, and then stripmine unabashed?

Planetary shields 'are' a standard FT Rp defence for a reason, when employed correctly. Might be a reason. Plus there's all those nasty moral backlashes other nations around here would conduct.

Might be a reason also. =^^=

Pffft. Moral backlashes. If some nation wants to come complaining, they can talk to the pair of 12 foot tall minotaur carrying plasma rifles outside my door.

I have come to believe that my RPs are too detail-oriented, and that is why they all fail. I actually need less detail...Detail can overwhelm, to be sure. It’s a kind of spice, and spices can be overused. I think one of the best ways to use detail is to lend actions an air of authenticity and/or make them unchallengeable; if I just say “I’m doing …”, then it’s easy for others to say, “Oh, well, that won’t work.” But if I describe what I’m doing well enough, no one will question its plausibility, and it will be universally accepted as valid.

The other thing detail can provide is colour. Adding facial expressions, gestures, mannerisms, moments of thought, etc., can make your characters – and, through them, your society - come alive. That’s especially important in FT, which is more of a game of Liar’s Poker than most RP’s in II. ;)

Pffft. Moral backlashes. If some nation wants to come complaining, they can talk to the pair of 12 foot tall minotaur carrying plasma rifles outside my door.
Yes I know that all to well, back before my leave I killed some protesters and I was threatened by an alliance (more like the guy was calling for mommy) and scared em back down (TAKE THAT MORALITY!). Messing with an FT nation that has a larger armed forces than your population is a very bad move.
But in all seriousness you should be prepared to be dog piled or have a more powerful foe appear if you do something that could send up a red flag on the morality radar.
Now back on topic

The simple answer is to simply use a GPS system, it wouldn't take much for a dropship/transatmospheric/space craft to dump a couple of dozen mini sats into a decent orbits (battletech and to a lesser extent the Aliens universe uses this system) you don't need to restrict those sats to GPS stuff you could proabably cram in coms relay, weather monitoring and surface surveilance gear without too much trouble. They wouldn;t even need that much of servcie life if they were beign deployed by a strike team or survey crew (you would instal more long term sats if the world was worth remebering about and if your strike team needs back up then your fleet of ships does the job reasonably well and can always deploy bigger sats if needed).

Usually I employ a Microwave Pulse Array to throroghly scan a planet or situation. But the idea of probes having that, would be a nice addition. I do employ fighters to a lesser extend, and Microwave Array capable ships.

I was always under the impression that being able to follow ships after they've jumped to Hyper, meant that naturally, we'd be able to track their path. How do they know how far away they are from somewhere, and the time when they will arrive if they don't know where they are in the middle of the transit?

I would assume that before the jump they know where their arrival point is going to be (unless you use a WH40K style warp drive, then you never know :p ), and since they know where their departure point is, all they have to do is calculate the distances between the two. Then, add in the speed the ship will be traveling, and you get the solution. If the ship is already in-transit, all it would need to do is know what time it was when they entered hyper, and they would have an answer as to how far they have come.

If you have ever read the Halo series of books (I highly recommend. Better than the games), the humans employ a probe system that launches into "hyper" and then reappears a few light-years away. While in hyper, it can scan the surrounding area, but it is unable to relay it's messages through the dimensional barrier back to our universe.

That is assuming that you use an alternate dimension for FTL travel, of course.

I'm glad you see what I mean. Though sometimes you have to remember that scout/courier ships can be larger targets, not available at the time, and other reasons why they aren't being used. Though if you think about it a fighter has the ability to be faster at the cost of quality can be key in a battle as well as the loss of a possibly cheaper fighter and one or two people (maybe more) than a scoutship of possibly more with more expensive equipment and such.

That's all assuming that the given nation's technology is able to fit a sat's worth of gizmos in the restricted space a fighter has that isn’t taken up by essential systems.

They can scan the planet and pinpoint their exact position. It isn't that difficult.

How do they pinpoint their location? A laser from space? It would seem to me that you would need two other laser emitters to triangulate your position. And that would never work for a missile or other such guided constructs.

But then again, ALL of rping is a godmod, boiled down to the painful fact that we're rping the impossible.

Heresy! Burn the unbeliever! Haha, jk. FT RPing is a controlled godmod any way you look at it. Doesn't make it bad, though.

Why invade when you can bombard, and then stripmine unabashed?

Sometimes there are times when occupation and conquest are preferable to slaughter and destruction.

Planetary shields 'are' a standard FT Rp defense for a reason, when employed correctly.

Ugh. I hate using planetary shields. You would have to design them to admit solar radiation (to a degree), work with magnetic flares, dust clouds, etc. All in all I think it is a big headache a bad RP mechanic.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't use them. I will have to as long as the rest of NS does, or I'm screwed.

Detail can overwhelm, to be sure. It’s a kind of spice, and spices can be overused.

...that would explain why nobody in my family eats my cooking. Hmm...

The simple answer is to simply use a GPS system, it wouldn't take much for a dropship/transatmospheric/space craft to dump a couple of dozen mini sats into a decent orbits (battletech and to a lesser extent the Aliens universe uses this system) you don't need to restrict those sats to GPS stuff you could probably cram in coms relay, weather monitoring and surface surveillance gear without too much trouble.

It does? That's funny, because I don't seem to recall any sats in Battletech. Which is odd, because I own and regularly read about 30 Battletech novels and have over 3,000 of the trading cards.

It does? That's funny, because I don't seem to recall any sats in Battletech. Which is odd, because I own and regularly read about 30 Battletech novels and have over 3,000 of the trading cards.

IIRC there was soemthing in battlespace about it but i'm not too sure, i can't remeber precisley where i read it but it was there somewhere and it did explain how in Mechwarrior 2 you coudl always use SPy Sat view no matter what planet it was, unless of course evryone used a single open source non encrypted system on thier planets...

For a while i was heavily into the whole Btech space side of things which while never as developed as it could have been did have some nice bits and bobs (like the whole uselessness of active sensors in space) although the "issues" surounding the aerodyne dropship designs were a tad vague (yes soem did have bits about the reconfigurable interior while on soem it was quite clear that they actually had 2 main drive engines, but at no weight penalty).

Yes I know that all to well, back before my leave I killed some protesters and I was threatened by an alliance (more like the guy was calling for mommy) and scared em back down (TAKE THAT MORALITY!). Messing with an FT nation that has a larger armed forces than your population is a very bad move.
But in all seriousness you should be prepared to be dog piled or have a more powerful foe appear if you do something that could send up a red flag on the morality radar.
Now back on topic

Actually, while I am diverging from the topic again, I must disagree with the morality bit. Otagia, one of my puppets, repeatedly annihilates all xeno life on planets using gene-tailored tailored plagues, then uses the now pristine world to house settlers, an especially nice bonus if said xenos were roughly humanoid. The worst part is that NOBODY has ever called me out on my barbaric practices, although the Consortium (a group that somewhat declared war on the ESUS) accidentally did via propoganda. Of course, that never went anywhere, so it doesn't count...

That and Khurgan, and to a greater extent Chronosia, are both insanely evil Chaos nations, and rarely get chewed out for moral reasons. Same goes with most Sith RPers: by nature they're morally reprehinsible but never get dogpiled.

Pffft. Moral backlashes. If some nation wants to come complaining, they can talk to the pair of 12 foot tall minotaur carrying plasma rifles outside my door.

I'll be sure to let my Arch-angels know. =^^=

As for the planetary shield bit, if I remember right from reading through the Thrawn Trillogy Star Wars novels, Coruscant had it's own planet wide shield, kept going for quite some time in fact. I don't think radiation effects are going to be the problem in the heat of a siege.

No, but while those shields are up the planet itself will suffer. Nature is a delicate balancing act, and if it is disturbed, we shall all perish.

And turbolasers don't do the same? =oo=