NationStates Jolt Archive

The Mameluck Empire:

Empror: Sultan Sulejman I.
Vesir: Abdah
Teritory: Todays Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Jordan, west side of Saudi Arabia.
Religion: Muslim
Lenguage: Arabian
Capital: Alexandria
Population:4-7 million (not sure, but estimated)

Alliances:
Wars:

The army of Egypt:

SULTANS ARMY:

Sultan has his always standing profesional army. The army is formed out of three diferent units:

-Sipahi: Sultans personal bodyguard, the heavy cavalry. Huge men riding on the best horses of the Empire. The wear full cahinmail, they are armed with spears, swords and protect themself with round shields. They are highly disciplined and are the best troops of the Empire.
There are 4 regiments, each consisting of 600 horsmen.

-Janisair: The core of the Sultans army, they are said to be the best infantry on the world. They are slave soliders, highly disciplined and trained. The are equiped with light lamel armour, large oval shields and spears.
There are 17 regiments, each consisting 1200 men.

-Seljuk archers: The light infantry, used for support, scouting and covering the sky with arrows. The wear no armour so they can fire and move more quickly. They are armed with repetative bows and handzhars.
There are 8 regiments, each consisting of 900 men.

THE BLACK ARMY:

Each noble, low or high, must answer the Sultans call to war. Each noble (Mameluck) must come with his sons in full armour and equiptment. They form the heavy mameluck cavalry. Each must also bring 4-5 squires, wich form the light cavalry regiments (Turcoman). Then, each squire must bring 3-6 spearmen, wich then form the main blocks of infantry.
This people are only called to arms when war breaks out, otherwise, they are at home, farmning, trading...

This gives the Sultan another army:

-Mameluck: Heavy cavalry armed with battleaxes and shields, they also wear heavy armour.
The estimated number of Mamelucks is 9 regiments, cosisting of roughly 600 horsmen.

-Turcomans: Light cavalry, armed with light armour, they ride unarmoured horses, relaying on their speed, used to haras the enemy and caherge weak or runing units. They cary bows and curved sabers and protect themself with shields.
There are 31 regiments of around 600-700 men.

-Muwahid spearmen: The main unit, they form huge blocks of spear armed infantry.
There are 54 regiments, each of 900-1000 men.


THE MUSTER:

If a Jihad is called, either to defend the Empire or to spread Islam betwen the unbelivers, all people from all over the Empire must answer the call. The empire is huge, and people from diferent regions fight in diferent styles, wich gives a wide choice of units.

-Saharan cavalry: These nomads from the Saharan cavalry are quick and strong, armed only with shields and curved sabers and ride on quick horses.

-Benduins: They ride camels to battle, wich makes them a little slower than cavalry but gives them even heavier charge and more stamina. There are two sorts of Beduin units, one is armed with bows and one with spears and shields.

-Bisyan guard: These Egyptian farmers fight with furry with their huge battle axes.

-Nizaris: Nomad archers from Sudi Arabia.

-Ghazi: Light infantry armed with shields and axes from ghaza.

-Nubian spearmen: Huge amounts of these black men fight in Sultans army.

-Turcopoles: Archers mounted on swift steeds, used for skirmishing or harasing missions.

-There are many more units that Sultan can call to his side. The numbers of his armies are unknown, but it is said that in the time of need, he could call upon around 200.000 or more men to fight for Islam!


Egyptian navy:

WAR NAVY:

The war navy has its center in the Alexandrian harbour. It is formd out of old fasioned Galleys, wich cary arcehrs, catapults and balistas that they use to sink the enemy, but the main fighting tactic is still raming enemy ships.
There are quite a few sorts of galleys, they are of varius sizes and weaponry, actualy, it is almost impossible to find two indentical galleys.
There are somewere around 60, maybe 70 galleys in all the harbours, more than half of them in Alexandria.

MERCHANT NAVY:

The Mameluck empire is very rich, and most of its riches come from trade all over the Mediteranium. There are huge amounts of ships sailing trough the sea, trading with all friendly nations.


ooc: Will be updated later...

Emir Tamim greets you, mighty Sultan Sulejman,

The Emir is most pleased by our recent signing of an alliance. He hopes that our alliance will strengthen Islam in our lands and help spread it to Europe. The Emir has already sent Ulema and other scholars of Islam to Spain to help strengthen the faith and spread it to new followers, and is pleased by the Kingdom of Castile's decision to allow Islam to be practiced in Spain.

In order to further strengthen our friendship, the Emir wishes to purpose a pact of non-agression (he understands that the pact is assumed under an alliance, but he would like to make it offical), as well as a trade agreement.

The Emir wishes good health to you, your family, and all the Mameluke Empire.

-Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz

I. Jihad!

Now that the contract with Tunisia secures the West border of the Empire, a call to Jihad is issued. Each third Mameluck must come to muster with his escort. Letters have been sent to all Muslim nations East of the Empire, that the army will only pass trough their country, and that all wishing to make Alah happy should join the army.
The army will march towards the Bizantium empire, to spread the right faith to all of their lands. The leader of the army will be the yung but experianced general Mustafa Al Kari.
We also invite all other true beliving nations to join the Jihad!

Size of army (estimated):
-2000 Mameluck cavalry
-6000 Turcoman cavalry
-20.000 Muwahid spearmen
-4000 'Otoman' spearmen
-3000 Seljuk archers
-Around 20-30 thousand people of different tribes, militia and voluenteers.

-The generals bodguard consists of 500 Spiahi.
-Some 10.000 slaves, servants, cooks, engineers, shepards and all other camp people with some 1000 wagons with suplies and huge herds of sheeps and even some cattle.

(OOC: are you keeping this Jihad a secret or are you declaring it to the world, if not....)

Message From Prince Yuroslav II, the Pious and Prince Yaropolk II

To Sultan Sulejman I,

Make an enemy of the Byzantines and you will make an enemy of us, we may be in civil war but we are willing to set aside our differences if it will defend the center of Kievan Religon, we will mobolise at once.

Prince Yuroslav II, the Pious and Prince Yaropolk II

Forces (Prince Yuroslav II)

3,000 Men-At-Arms
7,000 Peasants
1,000 Shortbows

Forces (Prince Yaropolk II)

1,000 Boyars
2,000 Men-At-Arms
8,000 Peasants
500 Shortbows

OOC: ummm...not a chance in hell you can call 200,000 men to fight for you...since you called juhad you can have around 30-40,000 but armies were not all that big because they cost too much money....

Greetings mighty Sultan,

Though the Emir perfers to spread Islam though peaceful ways, he wishes you much luck and prays Allah grants you sucess. He will send scholars of Islam to conqured Byzantine lands to help them see the light and glory of Allah, as well as selling war supplies to the Mameluke Empire at a reduced price. Should you be outnumbered and beaten back, Tunisia will send soldiers to aid the Jihad, at your request of course.

May Allah bring you a quick and decivise victory.

-Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz

OOC: could I possible fit my fantasy army into this? i'd like to, since it would be cool to have a battle like that. If you have ever heard of Warhammer, then you might know what the Skaven are. If you dont then tell me, but I'd like to use them in this if thats ok (?).

(OOC: sorry dude this is for Earth Medieval only, though it would be fun to watch Skaven rip the Byzantines to shreds *note to self* get skaven to rip Byzantines to shreds)

(OOC: sorry dude this is for Earth Medieval only, though it would be fun to watch Skaven rip the Byzantines to shreds *note to self* get skaven to rip Byzantines to shreds)

ooc: lets see if wolf might let me though.

OOC: ummm...not a chance in hell you can call 200,000 men to fight for you...since you called juhad you can have around 30-40,000 but armies were not all that big because they cost too much money....

Well, you see, its the so called ''Black army'' the NON-PAID army that is mustered. You only pay professional army, the nobles and the rest of the muster must pay their own equiptment.

And yes, this is a official Jihad (daclared)

No Skaven please! (Maybe Tomb kings, they fit in :p *Joke*)

Well, you see, its the so called ''Black army'' the NON-PAID army that is mustered. You only pay professional army, the nobles and the rest of the muster must pay their own equiptment.

(OOC: you realise that this will already start you off with pretty low morale, you'd have deserters right from the get go, but I leave the final decision to the Realism mod)

200,000 men is just simply too much for an army of this time period, exceptions beeing China and India perhaps... But hardly in the European scene.

ooc: Yes, EUROPEAN, the middle east and N. Africa were better orgainsed, civilised and had higher population. Also, it is possible becouse for Jihad, wich is a holy war, even people outside the Empire would come, and also, the morale would be low, but no very low and not in all troops: the Mamelukes were used to fighting, and so were their squires and the Sultans army, as for the rest, acording to historical sources, almost none of the Turkish units were known of haveing low morale, actulay, they are known to have higher morale than the Europeans, becouse they belive taht they go directly to heaven of they die in Jihad (read sources of battles against the crusades and you will see i am right).

(OOC: my non-mod powers have been won over, I agree losely with this but bear in mind that if they have to supply their own weapons they'll likey be limited to sticks)

ooc: Yes, EUROPEAN, the middle east and N. Africa were better orgainsed, civilised and had higher population. Also, it is possible becouse for Jihad, wich is a holy war, even people outside the Empire would come, and also, the morale would be low, but no very low and not in all troops: the Mamelukes were used to fighting, and so were their squires and the Sultans army, as for the rest, acording to historical sources, almost none of the Turkish units were known of haveing low morale, actulay, they are known to have higher morale than the Europeans, becouse they belive taht they go directly to heaven of they die in Jihad (read sources of battles against the crusades and you will see i am right).

I have read enough about the battles against crusaders, thank you, but I have never ran into one in which the muslims had 200,000 troops. Or 100,000. Uh, 50,000? That starts to sound like Jerusalem, Akko, Hattin...

And about the morale, well, it seemed to be good mostly but fact remains that the muslim armies had their asses handed to them by the European knights and armies, untill the odds got too bad and the knights started to be lead by staggering morons, Hattin beeing the ultimate example.

When the armies are about equally strong in manpower, and have about equally skilled leaders, and the knights don't abandon all of their bases and castles and start hunting the light skirmishers of the muslims over some incredibly dry deserts with very little water, they will most likely win the day.

(I would expect Muslim Armies to be larger, for they always had larger population bases to be drawn from. One of the Islamic strenghts in their many attacks and whatnot were the overwhelming numbers with which they hit with. Seljuk Armies rarely numbered under 50,000 in their invasion of the Balkans, leaving the only reasons any of the crusades were sucessful being Christian superior equiptment and training. Numbers were almost always in the favor of the Islamic Attackers... now exact numbers, who can be sure? I would expect them however, to be considerably larger than the average European nation.)

(OOC: Wolfenbach, would you agree to a compromise of around 150,000? I say this a realism mod not as a defender of Byzantine, but there have been complaints of your army size)

if they have to supply their own weapons they'll likey be limited to sticks

Not actualy, nobels (Mamelukes) had good equiptment, and so did their squires (Turcopoles), and since the nobles equiped the spearmen (Muwahid spearmen), they also had good equiptment. The same goes for Sultans army, as for the rest, like beduins, they were nomads, traveling trought the desert full of bandits is dangerus, most of them had a bow/handzhar/spear and similar goes form most of the army.

I will give you an example of Muslim army. It was in 1593 (yes i know it is 500 years later, but still), a single Serbian lord (Serbia was under Turkey) brought an army of 38.000 in Slovenia. My countrymen had 5000 (800 arquebuisers), but they defeated them becouse by that time, the Turkish army was obsolite (wich doesn't go for the time we are playing).

As for the kinghts, you are right, but they were few and bringing them trough the desert in full armour and with little water is a big problem (belive me, on one re-enactment, i only wore a chainmail and a helmet, and it was only around 30 celsius, but i almost fell down becuse of the heat! And it wasn't even in a battle or march, i was standing on guard in camp!). Also, my Mamelukes and Sipah would be equal to them.

(I would expect Muslim Armies to be larger, for they always had larger population bases to be drawn from. One of the Islamic strenghts in their many attacks and whatnot were the overwhelming numbers with which they hit with. Seljuk Armies rarely numbered under 50,000 in their invasion of the Balkans, leaving the only reasons any of the crusades were sucessful being Christian superior equiptment and training. Numbers were almost always in the favor of the Islamic Attackers... now exact numbers, who can be sure? I would expect them however, to be considerably larger than the average European nation.)

True, true, but actual European "nations" (and their armies) were indeed very small. An army of 10,000 men was a really strong one in these days. So, where it's true that Mameluks could have fielded greater army in quantity, the 200,000 is just way too much for that purpose. The ratio 1:2 sounds somewhat reasonable to me, and when thinking how strong the crusader armies were and how strong they propably will be in this RP, I'd say 50,000-80,000 is more than enough for the Mameluks. But I aint mod of any sort, so...

Now there is a point you missed there! 200.000 is the MAXIMUM Sultan fill in. The empire had a few million population (2, maybe 3 million, not sure, could be even more...), wich is only 10 or even less percent. Recruiting such an army would be disasterus for the Empires food and money suplies, but it could be done, becouse most muslim nations were far richer that europeans, and could therefore suport bigger armies.

(OOC: this means you'll suffer mass famine and impovrishment, made especially worse due to the great heat of Northern Africa, so if you do field such an army expect consequences, dire ones)

Now there is a point you missed there! 200.000 is the MAXIMUM Sultan fill in. The empire had a few million population (2, maybe 3 million, not sure, could be even more...), wich is only 10 or even less percent. Recruiting such an army would be disasterus for the Empires food and money suplies, but it could be done, becouse most muslim nations were far richer that europeans, and could therefore suport bigger armies.

No nation could afford 10% of her population to be drafted, dude. Not in the Middle Age. Actually, I'd say not before the 19th century, when the French presented this new idea of National Service.

How I understood it, you said that in times of Jihad you could bet that many men under your flags, half of them beeing "muster" as you put it. However, I still claim that it is too much for the organization and supply system of the time beeing.

And your population.

Well, we are getting no were, i sugges we wait and see what the mod has to say abouth it.

80,000 max, and that is draining your coffers ya hear!

Ok, you are the mod!

(This has brought up a question. Are we allowed to expand outside of the European Continent? I am not talking of colonizing North America, or the Western Hemisphere, but are the Egyptians aloud to expand into Africa? An infinite source of population from which to be drawn from? Likewise, the Russians could move east to an extent, as could the Calif of Baghdad (if we ever get one) I am not saying we should have the European Powers setting up colonies in Africa, Asia or any other continent, because the naval technology of the day could hardly make them worthwhile, but the North African Muslim powers are certainly capable of touching the gold mines of West Africa, the middle east, etc.)

(OOC: I was thinking the same thing, but I suggest we move this convorsation off the already overly spammed Mameluck Empire Thread and onto the OOC thread, as Weebl would say "to the OOC thread!!!" )

Greetings once again, Mighty Sultan,

The Emir has had a change of heart. With a large Christian force threating the Seljuk Turks in Antolia, the Emir feels it is time for Tunisia to take a more active role in defending Islam. He regrets sending his people to war, but with the Christian threat in Antolia he cannot shake the feeling that Islam is under attack. He will lead a force of about 11,700 men on your Jihad.

The Emir also feels that we should further strengthen our relationship to ensure that we will never become enemies and lose focus of our mutual goal to spread and defend Islam. The Emir purposes a royal marriage between our families. The Emir has both a son and daughter who are unmarried, and he offers a marriage to any member of your family you wish.

The Emir hopes to see you in Alexandria soon.

-Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz

OOC:Marriage info.
Yahya ibn Tamim
-Son of Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz
-Heir to Tunisia
-22 years old
-5'7", 170 lbs.
-Brown eyes, black hair w/ full beard.

Thana
-Daughter of Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz
-19 years old
-5'4", 130 lbs.
-Green eyes, black hair going down to middle of back.

Army Breakdown(see Tunisian contact thread for more info on units)
-Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz with 50 Ghulam Bodyguards
-4,000 Tunisian Infantry
-2,000 Tunisian Archers
-1,200 Faris
-4,500 volunteers (as a militia force for battle)
-4,000 slaves, servants, engineers, ect.

We greet our mighty neighbours!

We were wery happay when we came to know, that you will be joining our course! We will wait for you in the camp just west of Alexandria, and the war council has decidet, that we will be traveling near the coast, with 40 galleys carying additional suplies.

We unfortunetly don't have any doughters, as Sahsa died at 12, but we do have a son, Amir, who is 23 years old. We hope to celebrate a weding soon!

Sultan Sulejman I.

We greet our mighty neighbours!

We were wery happay when we came to know, that you will be joining our course! We will wait for you in the camp just west of Alexandria, and the war council has decidet, that we will be traveling near the coast, with 40 galleys carying additional suplies.

We unfortunetly don't have any doughters, as Sahsa died at 12, but we do have a son, Amir, who is 23 years old. We hope to celebrate a weding soon!

Sultan Sulejman I.

The Emir would be happy to marry his daughter Thana to Amir. His forces are on the move and should arrive in Alexandria soon.

-Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz

The Seljuk and Egytian armies can be extremely large for European standards because of what the other guys said, the Middle East is more heavily organized and populated than Europe.

And the battle for Jerusalem or Hattin were only a century later than we are now - and guess what, these empires (Mameluke + Seljuk) are larger and more impressive in their time than Saladin's empire ever was.

I have said my Seljuk Army is some 120-140,000 men. It is given that many of these men are irregular, undisciplined light cavalry, still decisive in the open field though

Final point - at the time of this rp, turkish peoples, entire cultures were moving across Asia, one of the reasons they were so unstoppable. These people were half nomadic and could field enormous percentages of their population, maybe half their manpower (25%), not that anyone would ever use that many troops.

Okay, alot of you seem to be thinking when the army reaches 200,000 is what you are thinking of when he gathered armies from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, large parts of Mesopotamia, and northern Arabia.

An emissary from the Seljuk court entered one of the many formidable buildings deep within the heart of ancient Cairo. As he walked between the pillars, he wondered at the splendor of the ancients who had built this city and other ones.

Turning a final corner, he was flustered to encounter the Mameluke Sultan, surrounded by soldiers, marching his way. Bowing low more to preserve his life than be sincere, he handed the telegram to the Sultan and bowed lower. It read:

To the Sultan of Africa, Master of Egypt, from the Great Seljuk Sultan Malik Shah. I will be willing to achieve a temporary peace with your nation in order to deal with the threat of the Infidels and expand Islam. You proposal for an alliance an Jihad is acceptable, on conditions. One, we wish to see the city of Jerusalem as neutral, ruled perhaps by the religious leadership there. Secondly, I wish to retain control of my troops and head the coalition when it is in my lands, possibly. Thank you and I hope for future good relations (OOC and you converting to Sunnism).

Malik Shah

The Sultan stared at the messanger, then he called a servant, who bringed papers and ink. He wrote what SUltan said:

We agree! We had no intents of stoping to capture any cities, we are marching directly towards Armeina, were we will strt a campain agains several cities in Byzantium empire.

Sultan Sulejman I.

The Sultan gived the message to the servant and kicked him out of the way, as he continued to walk on his path.

As you sit, tending to different matters of state. Suddenly your servant, the one you sent to the Papacy entered into the room, he looks rather...tired. He falls on the floor, but manages to hand you the message. It reads:

"...and the lands of Allah shall burn..."

The Papacy declines.

In a large camp, west of Alexandria

It was dawn. In the east, the sun was rising slowly. Now it was clam and peaceful, but soon it would become a blazing inferno. The sun, a consant reminder of both the peace and the wraith or Allah.

A young guard yawned. He had just spent the entire night on the western edge of the massive camp, and was glad that his shift was almost over. He leaned against his spear, it being the only thing holding him up. He shivered slightly. The chill of the night still lingered, but soon heat would be master of land again.

Then he heard... something. He figured it was just the sand as he shifted his weight, but minutes passed, and the slight whisper of a sound grew louder. Then he saw it. It was a large, dark mass off in the distance. He opened his eyes wider to try and make it out. He waited a few minutes, the mass grew a little large and the noise a little louder.

"Hey!" he yelled over his shoulder.

A young boy of about 13 who had joined the Jihad was standing guard a little further into the camp. He came running up to the older man.

"Go to the Sultan, tell him there's a mass of people on the western horizon, I think its the Tunisians. Go! Hurry!"

The young boy nodded before running off to the Sultan's tent.

*****

The sun had risen over the horizon when Emir Abu Tahir Tamim ibn al-Muizz, Emir of Tunsia ordered his army to halt and make camp. He and a guard made their way through the Mameluke camp.

Tamim entered Sulejman's tent and bowed respectfully.

"Greetings my friend, Sulejman," the Emir greeted. "I hope you are well,"

"I've been better," he replied.

"Have a seat," he motioned to a table and rose from his own throne, "We have things we need to discuss,"

"Yes," Tamim agreed as they seated themselves at the table, "Just recently I was visited by a embassary from the Seljuk Turks,"

"Yes," Sulejman replied, thinking, "I ran into one in one my halls awhile ago,"

"Oh," the Emir said surprised, "I was unaware that he had sent one to you. Did he discuss Jerusalem and the coalition?"

"Yes, and I agreed to both,"

"You did?" the Emir asked surprised again, "I did not think you would, apparently we still have much to learn about each other. Well, it appears my business ended before it started. Did you have any business,"

"Yes, much more serious, I'm afriad,"

He glanced at a servant, who gave a note to the Emir.

Tamim didn't recognize it at first, but then made it out to be in Latin.

"Latin?" the Emir asked confused.

Sulejman simply nodded.

The Emir began to read it, taking a minute as he tried to make sense of the unfamilair language. One line caught his eye, ...and the lands of Allah shall burn...

"Who?" he asked as he looked up.

"The Papacy," Sulejman replied.

Tamim's face changed to a worried look as he shifted uncomfortably in his chair.

"This isn't good," he replied, "If the Papacy gets involved in this, thing will become much more difficult for us,"

"Then lets us hope they do not, come now. We have much planning to do,"

The sultan called in the yung general whol led the army. ''Are the forces ready? Did the suply ships arive?''
The general replied: ''Yes, my lord, everything is ready.''
The sultan took a glass and drinked the water in it. He thinked for a while, then stood up and said with a proud voice: ''Than we shla begin our march on todays evening!''

As the sun was going lower and lower, and dark covered the desert, the camp was pulled down, and a huge army begun its march.

(OOC: Here's the thread Titicus made for the RP:http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10094347#post10094347