NationStates Jolt Archive


The F-33 Raven Air Superiority and Strike Fighter

Mekugi
08-12-2005, 04:15
[OOC NOTE: Though I have IC had these aircraft for quite some time they have never officially be released, and certianly not on this level of disclosure. In a sense this is both a refference, release, and sales thread; Though interested parties should read the sales note at the bottom of this post.]

Background-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/jay3135/Hardware/patch.gif
Aerone Prototype Flight Patch

The YF-33 project was originally conceived five years ago as it was quickly becoming apparent to military leaders that any form of air dominance even tactically was soon to be eroded as newer systems and land based air defense system. The Recent Foreign advances made the then SU-27EL and SU-35H fighters then in active service notably obsolete. Simulations of projected air power against the overwhelming advance of foreign air technology painted a dark picture for the Republican Air Force who though relatively small had always considered themselves an elite force. Their training was after all top notch and extensive to the definition, their equipment however was questionable with many times of crisis finding only half or less of the necessary planes ready for an offensive, and the bitter realization that the planes though long since upgraded overtime were now spending far too much time in maintenance to be practical as a frontline fighter force.

Several years of planning and a design and legal showdown between Mekugi’s largest arms conglomerate (The Alpha Technologies Group) and what was at the time one of the smallest companies in the country (but Mekugi’s only dedicated aerospace organization.) The underdog as it maybe; Aerone Aerospace Incorporated upheld itself as a highly professional company with some new and rather radical ideas, that impressed the Air force represenitives, and after three prototyping stages and fly-offs; Aerone was declared the winner and went on to produce what was to be one of the most successful indigenous aerospace ventures to date.


Overview-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/jay3135/Hardware/asf5c.png
Sleek lines, Lethal intentions

The Raven Air Superiority and Strike Fighter was built around a simple concept;

‘Be the most lethal and efficient machine possible that is still a reliable and dependable machine.’

It is this concept that makes the raven so revolutionary, where most current craft focus on their various special electronics and sensors with little concern as to maintenance, or efficiency; the Raven offers similar if not superior performance without the fragile subsystems currently displayed on today’s fifth and sixth generation fighters. The first thing one notices about the Raven is its relatively conventional arrangement, compared to the FSW and Switchblade designs dominating the skies today, the Raven uses a new rebated-delta wing design for the increased speed, and stealth compared to FSW designs. A tapered edge canard design provides decreased edge turbulence and is balanced with the rear wing to allow for superior maneuverability at both high and low speeds. A two port spanwise blower system on both canard and main wing allows for extremely high angle of attack maneuvers without stalling even superior to those of front edge flap or FSW concepts with less mechanical parts, and fewer maintenance concerns.

Use of structural skin designs that allows for higher overall strength using less reinforcing ribs allows for a lighter weight and more internal space gives the Raven surprising agility, and plenty of room for its overbuilt electronics, avionics, fuel, and weapons systems allowing for higher efficiency within an airframe.

Construction-
The structural skin of the Raven made of Duralex-314 boron fabric held together with Polyaryletherketones or PEEK thermoplastic resin. This ‘Thermofiber’ composite material provides structural stability, and protection without the added machining cost or weight of a metallic outer skin. The PEEK Thermofiber material has excellent mechanical properties due to the fiber imbedded semi-crystalline polymers, good thermal stability and good chemical resistance. the continuous service rating of 250°C. PEEK is inherently fire retardant. It has been said it is easier to burn a hole through an aluminum sheet than through a thermo fiber sheet. Likewise the near fiberglass method of construction requires less thermoplastic and decreases the overall cost dramatically.

The outermost skin of the raven is a simple but effective carbon infiltrated rubberized polymer providing excellent structural ‘give’ while providing many overall benefits. The primary benefit of the polymer coating is durability, its ability to move with the plane without ripping, and its smoothing effect on the airflow around the plane decreases fatigue and increase aerodynamics. The other Benefit of the Polymer covering is IR and LIDAR Suppression, the matte non reflective coating prevents accurate readings by means of LIDAR, and its thermal properties remove entirely the Internal radiated IR signature of the aircraft, the carbon infusing also helps to quickly dissipate stress heat generated by the aircraft as it moves through the air at high speeds decreasing its enemies detection and engagement envelope significantly. It is in fact this graphite colored coating that gave the aircraft its name, reminding the commander in charge of the project of the ravens in epic Anchrish poems.

Underneath the composite a coating of radar absorbing materials is attached to the composite, but this is only the first step, below the skin lies thin cells of carbon aerogel infused with radar absorbing materials with carbon fiber plates set at intersecting angles according to their position on the aircraft. This arrangement creates a radar ‘echo chamber’ where a signal passing though the RAM material dampening it, then is reflected away from the enemy transmitter and again passes through the RAM layer before exiting further dampening the return to even semi-passive bi-static systems making the plane nearly invisible to high and low frequency radar system both ground and air based. This arrangement is not only highly effective but, is much more resistant to stress and heat build up as it is on the inside of the aircraft skin, not outside of it as can be seen on the metallic skinned B2, and F-22. An added benefit of this system is also a 10% reduction in sound and a 5% reduction in the ravens IR signature, even without additional coatings this simple modular arrangement fills many of the complex needs of the aircraft without complicating or increasing aircraft general maintenance requirements.

The lightweight skeleton of the Raven are 35 titanium alloy ribs that are highly resistant to creep or thermal expansion yet allow the flexibility to survive high G maneuvers and ’spring back’ without causing stress fractures or other unwanted side effects of such an action. The composite structural skin over these ribs are actually under pressure and are connected sheet by sheet via ‘stress joints’ that expand when needed allowing the skin of the plane to act as a structural form decreasing the need for extensive ribbing and decreasing weight and costs drastically. The Cockpit and both Engines rest independently in composite armored and shock isolated ‘hammocks’ designed to protect the primary components (the engines, pilot, and avionics) from possible damage due to ground/air fire or hard landings and allows for higher survivability with very little increase in the airframes overall weight.

The aerodynamic benefits of unstable canard-delta design as chosen for the Raven project; its shear volume available for fuel and internal weapon storage combined with the agility of the unstable close coupled canard Make it ideal for an air superiority and strike fighter, unlike anything the world has seen.

Cockpit-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/jay3135/Hardware/cockpit2.png
[fig.1] Ravens cockpit

The cockpit for the F-33 is one of the most advanced ever built, a second generation ‘glass cockpit’ the electronic display suite is comprised of four massive 8x8 color multifunction displays further supplemented by four 4x6 inch MPCDs all of which utilize active matrix liquid crystal display (AMLCD) technology and a super wide-angle, 45x38 degree diffraction head-up display allowing one of the widest views available in a fifth or sixth generation fighter short of a separate helmet mounted display. The central head-down displays provides tactical data superimposed on a computer-generated map, as well as weather and tactical data-link information as provided by other aircraft in the flight. The displays on the left and right provide the flight data and the target data from the sensor suites. On the right hand the smaller MPCDs provide control and fueling information at-a-glance and can be adjusted so as to accommodate the pilots information needs. to the right weapon and arming information stays in easy sight without the need to look down decrease confirmation of weapon selection time and decreasing the lock on to launch time

An Integrated Helmet-Mounted Display System known as Copperhead. Provides time-critical systems controls (for example, weapons and communications) are grouped on the throttle and control stick for Hands-on Advanced Direction and Speed (HADES) operation, also known in the west as HOTAS.

The Copperhead system allows for Detached Heads-up View or DHV giving the pilot the ability to ‘look-right shoot-right’ and gives him unprecedented tracking of enemy and friendly aircraft without having to look down at his fixed displays increasing the pilots ability to maneuver and counter an enemy aircraft without losing track of the rest of his flight or succumbing to an enemy airborne pincer. This ability to have all the information the pilot could need without overwhelming him in a comfortable easy to acclimate to environment makes the Raven a favorite of pilots in all branches, and of all levels of experience.

A variable geometry adaptive ejection seat is inclined at an angle of 60°, which reduces the impact of high G forces on the pilot. Complimenting the angled ejection seat is a new flight suit comprised of a close fitting foam material of fit very similar to a divers wetsuit, and is internally ridged on the inside of the tight suit to help provide better aeration of the skin underneath and when the airbladders outside of the internal suit are inflated increase arterial pressure decreasing g-induced flow to the bodies extremities during a maneuver The seat and suit allows dogfight maneuvers with significantly higher G loadings than can normally be tolerated by the pilot, and nearly to the limit of the planes endurance.

Avionics-
The Raven utilizes an eight channel Fly-by-Optics with Advanced Compensated Feedback Return (ACFR) allowing the pilot to ‘feel’ the aircrafts response more so than just performing the maneuver he is capable of exploiting the full capabilities of the craft. The AN/APG-300(AE)7 Advanced Electronically Scanned Multi-mode radar uses an active electronically scanned antenna array of 3,000 transmitter/receive modules, which provides agility, low radar cross-section and wide bandwidth. With search ranges up to 300 km and identification/tracking/targeting of up to 65 individual simultaneous targets, the AE7 is a formidable piece to fill the planes needs. The 300(AE)7 radar is supplemented by an Advanced Low Probability of Intercept (ALPI) I-band radar for both navigation, and passive threat detection. When combined via the COM/7V ’Python’ Tactical Data link the flight is able to act as a flexible multi-static passive radar for the detection of stealth aircraft, or cruise missiles at long range without giving away the crafts position.

Integrated IFF and CNI systems with overlaid ATAPS/GPS reporting allows for nearly instantaneous reliable friend or foe cues in even the most erratic of battlefields. Integrated and connected high band communications allow up-to-date data and video from the command room to the cockpit and back again allowing a higher amount of correct information to give the pilot the complete picture. Navigation is provided via Agile multi-mode Radio-Ranger, FLIR and Laser Navigation pod, ring laser gyro inertial navigation system, and ATAPS/GPS co-ordination allowing for extreme low level high speed terrain following navigation without the need for a detectable terrain following radar (though it is provided).

Communications is provided via M3 UHF/HF/(V)LF Tactical Radio which provides satellite and local encrypted communications between flights and base. Furthermore a DV/F5R-76D Strategic Video Data link allows for transfer and target confirmation on strike or against high value air targets without the need for later ‘gun cam’ review allowing for instant confirmation and action without relying on a recording system or a pilots memory.

Countermeasures-
Beyond its stealthy nature, Aircraft no matter how advanced can be vulnerable to enemy missiles. It was in this that the Aerone team set about to provide a comprehensive electronic and physical countermeasures system for the raven project.

Primary among the Countermeasure system is detection of threats, and for that purpose the Raven has three primary detection systems. The E/M-4A Digital LPI Radar Warning Receiver is a broad spectrum low signature system designed to be used in high threat areas where radar signature is not as much of a concern, and in that role it has proven nearly flawless with long range detection of even stealthy high velocity threats up to 98% with higher sequestrates increasing as range closes. When emission of a radar signal is not advised for any multitude of reasons a pair of combined M6-7V Laser/IR warning receivers with Launch detection cues allows for zero signature warning and tracking against beam riding, and MANPAD systems. Likewise a passive setting on the E/M-4A allows for radar lock warnings at long range and high speed allowing the pilot ample time and options in so far as countering the threat.

Secondary to detection the Raven mounts four distinct method of engagement;

* The M/LD-30 ‘Hot flash’ Laser/Infrared Dazzler- allows for the direct distraction and subsequent neutralization of IR or multi-mode seeking missiles. But as such is partially limited in its role.
*AD/EL-8 ‘Hot foot’ Multi-mode Radar Jammer- internal ECM providing broadband protection. Estimated system effective radiative power 60 dBW over 30km.
* ASM-9V Decoy Dispenser - 60 chaff and 60 flares arranged in a ‘metal storm’ stacked array allow for high volume of countermeasures in a very compact area, and high exit velocity increasing the countermeasures ‘footprint‘ for increased effect.
*A2VD/SM-9 Advanced Decoy launcher - Carrying 9 countermeasures per launcher the SM-9 system uses a small rocket propelled system derived from the ground based M3 Smoke grenade system to develop a active moving target that on detonation provides a realistic Radar and IR signature in order to deal with Multi-optic or multi-seeker based system both air a and ground launched. Current success rates vary by missile but average at around 48%

Propulsion-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/jay3135/Hardware/vpost-comp.png
[fig.2]

The F-33 is powered by two Aerone developed Thrust Vectored VPCB (Variable Post Compression Bypass) Turbofan engines. This engine was developed by the Aerone originally for the Dark storm project and is a derivative of the V636 twin-shaft turbofan engine on the F/I-103 Chimera light fighter Interceptor. The modular design includes a six-stage, low-pressure (LP) compressor, five-stage counter rotating high-pressure (HP) compressor, Advanced annular combustion chamber and dual-stage LP and single stage HP turbines, afterburner, heat exchanger, and mixer.

Each engine can provide 200kN thrust dry and 230kN with the afterburner and is independently directable from -30 to +30 degrees along the vertical and -15 to +15 degrees along the horizontal plane. The nozzles are connected to the annular swivel and can be moved in the pitch plane by a set of three of hydraulic jacks. The thrust vector control allows maneuvers at speeds nearing zero without angle-of-attack limitations. The vectoring controls can be operated manually by the pilot or automatically by the flight control system as per the pilots preference.

The major objective for the Variable Post Compression Bypass Turbofan application is to provide some degree of engine cycle variability that will not significantly increase the cost, the maintenance requirements, or the overall complexity of the engine. In the past, variable-cycle engines were designed with large variations in bypass ratio to provide jet noise reduction. However, these types were complicated and did not perform well. Though the concept of an engine meeting the Supersonic performance of a Turbojet with the economy and subsonic performance of a Turbofan has lead down many interesting and varied roads in the past.

In the VPCB turbofan air enters the compressor and bypass vents as per a normal turbojet. The first noticeable difference between the engines however is that the VPCB design has no fan. This is difference does as they say, make all the difference. As air enters the center vane it is compressed to a higher level than those passing through the bypass. A variable vent allows a certain amount of pressurized air to enter the bypass canal generating a pressure difference and thereby suction drawing air in through the bypass. At lower altitudes the air is thicker and therefore the pressure is greater sucking more air in through the bypass generating the same overall effect of a turbofan. In higher altitudes the air is thinner and thus the compression is less allowing it to work more efficiently as a low bypass turbojet giving greater efficiency. Because there is no fan there is less vibration, less noise and less stress on the turbines as the rotational mass is smaller. Likewise since there is no gear to the fan, the system is less complex and yet completely self adjusting according to the thickness of the air entering the vent. Its this automatic adjusting without complex or easily breakable parts that allows the VPCB to perform superbly at all levels of requirements from subsonic to supersonic maneuvers, all the way to low altitude hat high speeds the VPCB can do it and is nearly uniformly efficient in all transitions.

The aircraft is also fitted with dual-mode air intakes. During flight, the open air intakes feed air to the engines. While moving on the ground, the air intakes are closed and air is fed through the louvres on the upper surface of the wing root to prevent ingestion of foreign objects from the runway. This is particularly important when operating from poorly prepared airfields, and allow for the full use of the aircraft regardless of field conditions.

Reduction of Thermal signature is provided by a pair of sub systems comprised primarily of; The fuel/exhaust heat exchanger, and the Mixer. The Fuel/Exhaust heat exchanger is quite simply an insulate coil of piping around the first stage exhaust of the aircraft, fuel enroute to the engine passes through this tubing and by means of thermal conduction warms up the fuel and lowers the exhaust temperature. Because Aviation fuel has a higher thermal density than air, it makes it a very efficient system overall, and with eight separate fuel cut off locations safety is maintained to prevent a possibly catastrophic malfunction. This pre-warmed fuel is then fed into the Ravens engine where the heated fuel allows for higher engine efficiency allowing longer ranges with less fuel than any other comparative system.

Though the heat exchanger is a highly efficient system its overall cooling effect is limited by the safety requirements of the aircraft and so its overall effect is somewhat limited. However a Inducted Air Mixer (IAM) that uses a separate fan assembly run by the one of the LP turbines. The IAM draws in outside air and mixes it with the heated exhaust providing drastic IR reduction to the already cooled exhaust. This exhaust then passes through a set of carbon screens that conduct heat away from the exhaust before exit giving it a remarkably tiny IR signature allowing for protection from even advanced MAPADS and Air to Air missiles

For landings and times when rapid deceleration is required a separate 'clamshell' system that for the majority of flight is open and is integrated into the intake system for the IAM in front of the fan to prevent collateral damage. on Landing or when a heavy brake is needed the clamshells come together diverting the thrust forward and up counter to the direction of the aircraft allowing the aircrafts full use on short runways or prepared stretches of highway without the need for a drag chute.

Manuverability-
Beyond possibly Lethality, one of the primary concerns, if not THE concern of a Air Superiority or Air Dominance Fighter is maneuverability. Though the Aerone team spent nearly a year investigating foreign attempts at an Air Superiority craft, their methods were not those that they felt would work with the overall design goal. With the many sorted forms of Switchblade and Forward swept wing designs available on the world market the F-33 stands in stark contrast not do to how revolutionary it is but how Conventional the design is. Yes the Raven features a fixed Rebated-Delta with forward canards, but without the complications of the FSW or Switchblade concepts the added space and weight saving allow for more fuel, higher payload, and better maneuverability making it a match for most currently produced ASF’s as a base aircraft without the features that make it a great aircraft.

The aerodynamic benefits from the ravens chosen form of the unstable canard-delta, its shear volume available for fuel and internal weapon storage, proved to be possibly the best overall design frame for a Air Superiority and Strike Fighter. The twin outward canted vertical stabilizers positioned at delta's trailing edge added to battle damage resistance and control of the aircraft at high angles of attack (AOA) while the removal of the Horizontal stabilizers both made the craft more unstable and subsequently lowered it radar cross section. The Rebated, Dog-toothed Delta wing is enhanced with Advanced Leading Edge Extension (ALEX) which Provides added lift at high angles of attack and low speeds. Mounted on either side of the Forward Fuselage they are an extension of the wing leading edge.. ALEX however is just the beginning, beyond the enhanced smoothness provided by the rubberized polymer outer skin; two nozzles are mounted facing outward from the fuselage. These nozzles from the basis for a Variable Angle Span wise Blowing (VASB) system, though span wise blowing has been around for nearly half a century the weight saving in the Raven allow the full use of this system to allow for seemingly insane AOA maneuvers at high speed with almost no separation of fluid flow.

Span wise blowing works in two ways, the first nozzle ‘energizes’ the incoming air flowing over the top of the wing increase the airflows velocity decreasing separation dramatically. The second nozzle further increase the crafts AOA capabilities by creating a cushion of air above the mid-rear of the airfoil pushing the airflow against the airfoil and allowing for extremely high AOA maneuvers beyond that of any similar FSW or LEX only aircraft. The one drawback of Span wise blowing is that in a tight turn the airflow my disrupt the system causing loss of the post stall benefits, however the Ravens system has a adjustable rear nozzle allowing the cushion to be brought against the counter flow allowing high AOA maneuvers even ‘into the wind’ in a high stall turn, something almost no other craft in the world is currently able to match without losing control.

ALEX, VSAB, 3D Thrust vectoring combined with the unstable Canard delta configuration allows the Raven to perform stunts that would make even regular super-maneuverability craft pilots stare in awe, and in fact that was the entire intention, though a ‘conventional’ design the Raven is anything but.

Lethality-
The Ravens arsenal begins at the canted nose of the aircraft which hides a 25mm Gas Revolver Cannon firing at either 2100 or 3100 rounds per minute with 500 rounds in two selectable 250 round removable magazines allowing the pilot to select the best ammunition for the target they are engaging at the time. The 25mm GRC is independently maneuverable within its housing and can redirect its firing angle up to 5 degrees, as well as operating in an automatic radar-guided aiming mode while in A/A mode

The primary weapon systems of the Raven lie in two revolving Internal weapons mount on either side of the fuelsalage. Each mount has four hard points each capable of mounting one LR/AMRAAM or two SRAA/AM, this arrangement give the pilot the flexibility and capability to engage numerous simultaneous targets at will. Both bays are covered by a protected 'blended edge' side flap utilizing a Pneumatic Air-Curtain system that uses a jet of compressed air to create a haven of slower air in front of the flap allowing for deployment of munitions at supersonic velocities and high G-maneuvers without damaging or over stressing the flap. Each hard point is attached to a ‘trapeze’ frame that extends the missile away from the body of the plane before ejecting it allowing for undisturbed high speed interception even while attempting to maneuver from an enemy.

Between the intakes of the raven is a small depression and 4 centrally aligned hard points specifically placed in order to hold a 3000kg/2500L conformal ferry tank without interrupting airflow and allowing for up to 3g turns without incident. This depression is also capable of holding (in absence of the ferry tank) four Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or four LR or AMRAAMs and up to eight SDB, without interfering with the craft aerodynamics.

Beyond those mounts however the Raven does not usually mount any wing mounts in order to preserve its maneuverability, and stealthiness. Retrofitting the Raven with inboard wing mounts is possible and design considerations allow for adding up to two additional hard points per wings as desired, with little modification.

Conclusion-
Lethally Efficient, with maneuverability yet to be matched around the world the often ignored 'conventional' fighter is anything but. The Raven is a Front line Fighter of Renown, loved by pilots and ground crews alike for its performance and ease of maintenance using low cost but strong composites. The F-33 is capable of filling its niche heartily and has been designed to Find, Engage, and Destroy any threats for years to come, and it is eager to do so.

F-33 Raven
Type: Air Superiority and Strike Fighter
Crew: 1 (Pilot)
Wing span: 15 m
Length: 21 m
Height: 5.64 m
Empty weight: 20,538 kg
Weapon payload: 10,000 kg
Fuel weight: 15,588 kg
Combat Weight: 46,326 kg
Maximum take-off weight: 47,237 kg
Type: 2x Aerone 3D Independent Offset Thrust Vectored ATB-8-653 VPCB Turbofans with diffuser
Engine rating: 200 kN (45,000 lb)
Maximum speeds:
1.7 Mach @ Sea level
1.65+ Super cruise
>2.89 mach @ altitude
Climb rate: 25,000 meters per minute
Stall speed: 120 kph
Maximum altitude: 23,000 m
External Pylons: 4 (or 8 w/ 4 inboard wing mounts optionally )
External Pylon limit: 2,500kg each
Internal Bay Pylons: 8
Internal Bay limit: 1,250 kg each
Gun Armament: 25x185mm Archer GRC (Gas Revolver Cannon)
Rate of Fire: 3100 rounds per minute
Gun Ammunition: 500 rounds (from two 250 round magazines, selectable)
Airstrip take-off run: 350 m
Airstrip landing: >300 m
Ferry range: 6,500 km
Combat range: 1,800km
G load limits: >12g
In-flight Refueling?: yes
Oxygen Generation?: yes
Avionics:
-EL/M-303E I-Band ALPI Radar
-AN/APG-300(AE)7 Electronically Scanned Multi-mode Radar
-AS/LV-5 'Black Star' All-Weather Targeting and Navigation Pod
-RED/I-3 ‘Red-Eye’ Pulsed IR-LADAR
-MI/S-7V 'Green Light' Integrated Multi-role FLIR
-M3 UHF/(V)HF Tactical Radio
-DV/F5R-76D Strategic Video Data link
-LN/100 Laser-Ring Inertial Reference System (LIRS)
-MV/VOR VHF Omni-directional Radio-ranger
-CNI/DL Communications / Navigation / Identification
AM/ASP ‘Blue Star’ ATAPS Advanced Tactical Positioning System
-COM/7V ’Python’ Tactical Data link
-SB33A CI/T IFF
ECM:
-E/M-4A Digital LPI Radar Warning Receiver
-M6-7V Front and Rear Laser Warning Receivers
-M/LD-30 ‘Hot flash’ Laser/Infrared Dazzler
-AD/EL-8 ‘Hot foot’ Multi-mode Radar Jammer
Counter measures:
-ASM-9V Decoy Dispenser (x2)
-A2VD/SM-9 Advanced Decoy launcher
Production costs: 105 million
Price: 165 million USD per unit

Production rights are not avialable to any but allies, or those with established trading ties. Individual orders of units up to 300 are open to those who are not seen as hostile to the Republic.
Mekugi
08-12-2005, 04:28
This Bump brought to you by the NS Draftroom.
The Macabees
08-12-2005, 04:31
Unfortunately, it seems nobody likes to buy off single thread sales anymore' my Hawk and Arca were sent to the third page by the next day.
Mekugi
08-12-2005, 04:33
Unfortunately, it seems nobody likes to buy off single thread sales anymore' my Hawk and Arca were sent to the third page by the next day.Sad eh? a whole former II tradition now almost gone.

So be old school! post here! j/k
Southeastasia
08-12-2005, 13:12
Bring
Up
Mekugi's
Post!

:D
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 14:04
- It's too expensive. For the same price I can build 5 WF-27Cs or 3 WF-33s (check the Wingarde Aerospace Catalog, link's on my sig), and I seriously doubt a single F-33 will be able to take more than half of them out.
- Several of its features (speed, laser counter-measures, etc.) push it towards the PMT period.
- 500 rounds is certainly not enough cannon ammunition, and considering the rate of fire, you'd spend your whole reserve in less than 10 seconds (9.6).
- I'm not sure those engines can propel the aircraft up to 2.9 Mach.

I hope that critcism helps. I really like your art though, did you make it yourself? :D
Mekugi
08-12-2005, 15:03
1) Price is a variable primarily of four things; Actual cost of materials, Labour, Capabilities, and % of development cost.

Within that even taking the lowest possible projected mass production fiquires for an F-22 (80 Million[which is a number still many doubt will reach that low]) with a larger airframe, the development costs associated with a whole new method of construction, a radiacally new composite material, and an entirely new echo RAM concept alone without the development costs of the software for the various systems push that to atleast 25 million above the F-22.

If your selling ASF's for less than 60 million I think you might want to go back and reconsider your sources on prices... that or if the actual value is that cheap; then honestly yeah Id bet 2:1 or 4:1 sucess easily. Since those are both Multi-role fighters yeah honestly considering this can outfly, out detect, out range, and outshoot both designs according to the listed specs, but why are you sending in Multi-roles against ASF's ideally? If you plan to cut costs by not building them then youll have to expect losses when going against a purpose bulilt aircraft. Just as it is cheaper to build ATGW than it is to build your own tanks, but you cant expect equivalent cost exchange without heavy losses.

2)I have added nothing that dosent already exist in one form or another and even in the widest stretch of the definition. Short of the thermofiber concept, most of the other tech is older than myself IRL (spanwise blowing is nearly 50 years old concept wise and 20 years in practice) Even with thermofiber, similiar but more complex system do exist where as thermofiber is essentially fiberglass with thermoplastic resin, LCP's or Liquid Crystal Polymers are the same concept except they require self reinforceing crystaline structures.

Speedwise a larger plane using less thrust has achieved regular speeds well beyond mach 3 and its nearly as old as both of us most likely (Mig 31F) the listed maximum speeds are not operational speeds (and hence are not listed as such) and are running with only fuel and pilot, (no weapons, ammunition, etcetera).

Even if I wasnt very late MT (nearly PMT) this craft is no more PMT than a rechargable battery.

3)The F-15E carries 940 rounds of 20mm amunition and fires in A/A mode at 6000 rpm for a total firing time of 6.38 seconds.

Where as my larger rounds require less overall shot density and fire at a lower RPM for 9.6 seconds. Really I dont see anything wrong with that as in a dogfight 10 seconds is an eternity, and its not a Close Air Support aircraft and will rarely ever engage in ground attack with its gun.

I may lower the RPM slightly but really the amount and rate are both realistic considering the larger round (20% larger) beyond that I may add a second rate of fire set at 2100 rpm for the pilots prefference but thats about as far as I'll 'budge' on that point.

4) see point 2,a Larger (more correctly just heavier) plane with less thrust and no where near the fuel achieved and held mach 3 at alititude, if I was claiming mach 2.86 (not mach three) at sea level Id agree completely.

EDIT: And yes those are all my work, with the exceptions to copyright being the stock mountain image in the background who Im still trying to find the original owner of, and some of the cockpit displays.
Mekugi
08-12-2005, 16:26
up!
Anagonia
08-12-2005, 17:41
I like your designs and the lot, and am Highly interested in it. However, I am not one to bring critisim, as I have not created a jet of my own for some time.
Strathdonia
08-12-2005, 18:01
- It's too expensive. For the same price I can build 5 WF-27Cs or 3 WF-33s (check the Wingarde Aerospace Catalog, link's on my sig), and I seriously doubt a single F-33 will be able to take more than half of them out.
- Several of its features (speed, laser counter-measures, etc.) push it towards the PMT period.
- 500 rounds is certainly not enough cannon ammunition, and considering the rate of fire, you'd spend your whole reserve in less than 10 seconds (9.6).
- I'm not sure those engines can propel the aircraft up to 2.9 Mach.

I hope that critcism helps. I really like your art though, did you make it yourself? :D

The counter measures system isn't all that much, its just a DIRCM that's been bumped up into being able to affect Vissible specturm sensors, it wouldn't require all that much in the way of power and would be reasonable for jamming a wide rnage of missiles.

500 rounds for a single gun, especially of a 25mm calibre is actually twice as much as most planes will bother with IIRC, heck msot of the anglo french cold war planes used 150 rounds of fairly light 30x113mm ammo per gun and at max rate of fire 10 seconds is a good 20odd bursts as IIRC you shouldn't be using burst lengths in excess of 0.5seconds.
Mekugi
08-12-2005, 19:53
I like your designs and the lot, and am Highly interested in it. However, I am not one to bring critisim, as I have not created a jet of my own for some time.Well your opinion is always welcome, regardless of past experience.

The counter measures system isn't all that much, its just a DIRCM that's been bumped up into being able to affect Vissible specturm sensors, it wouldn't require all that much in the way of power and would be reasonable for jamming a wide rnage of missiles.

500 rounds for a single gun, especially of a 25mm calibre is actually twice as much as most planes will bother with IIRC, heck msot of the anglo french cold war planes used 150 rounds of fairly light 30x113mm ammo per gun and at max rate of fire 10 seconds is a good 20odd bursts as IIRC you shouldn't be using burst lengths in excess of 0.5 seconds.Aye, if I wanted to devote aproximately the same amount of sapce to the whole gun system as in the F-15 I could theoretically pack in ~700 rounds. I however would rather use that space for fuel and avionics, and keep the high rate of fire for effective bursts.
Artitsa
08-12-2005, 21:22
Well Mekugi.. here we are.

Artitsa has been looking for a replacement for its venerable Su-52 Series of Aircraft, including Su-52 Intercepter, Su-53 Strike Fighter, Su-54 Naval Fighter, Su-55 Air Defence, and Su-57 High Speed Interceptor.

For several years Artitsan Engineers have been attempting to design something surpass the Su-52, but all attempts have produced a design far to expensive to replace the expansive airforce of Artitsa.

It was then decided upon to purchase an aircraft from another Country, while the Engineers got their act together. It is hoped that the F-33 is capable of sustaining its superiority for the next 10 years, which it appears it will.

Therefore, Artitsa would like to place an order for Fifty-four thousand (54,000) for a total cost of, Eight Trillion, Nine hundred and ten billion USD.
($8,910,000,000,000)

This brings a total of $5,670,000,000,000 in revenue for your corporation. We hope that you understand that this amount will need to be paid in 5 years.

On the other hand, such a large quantity of Aircraft could not possibly be produced by your corporations holdings, therefore we ask if we could have a domestic license. This is important to us as well, since we must integrate our own weapon systems, and the possibilities of a pair of NP-130G Turbojets to replace the current engines, or even a pair of NP-131H Pulse Detonation Engine's.

NP-130G
Dry Weight: 2854kgs
Length: 7.982m
Width: 1.51m
Thrust Developed: 21,918kg's at Sea Level
Nozzle Arrangement: 3D Thrust Vectored; Vertical: -25*, +25; Horizontal: -12*, +35;
Description: This engine much resembles the NP-126F, in reliablity and purpose. However, this engine is significantly more powerful, and features full thrust vectoring. This engine is the last "conventionally powered" system provided by Nolan-Petyav Industries.
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 21:31
I don't get the logic behind "the bigger the aircraft, the greater the speed with lesser thrust". I mean, having more mass, you'd need more (not less) thrust to fly faster. Anyway, I guess that's as far as my knowledge goes, so I can't really argue on the rest of your points.

And I'm certainly not off with prices, check this chart out:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img007/fighter_prices.gif

The F-33's still too expensive, specially because it can only fulfill one task, as opposed to my multi-roles.
Artitsa
08-12-2005, 21:34
Wingarde. Your aircraft suck.

And if you claim any better, then they must be more expensive. Either that, or your company isn't making any money.
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 21:40
Wingarde. Your aircraft suck.

And if you claim any better, then they must be more expensive. Either that, or your company isn't making any money.
I'm not saying my aircraft are better than this one. I'm just saying the F-33 should be cheaper. Money doesn't necessarily mean power. Thanks for the politeness.

My aircraft are better than most modern RL ones, by the way. Unlike you, I'm MT, so I can't really aim much higher than that.
Artitsa
08-12-2005, 21:45
Lets not get into a discussion of whats MT and whats not.

I seriously doubt a single F-33 will be able to take more than half of them out.

Explain.
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 21:54
Lets not get into a discussion of whats MT and whats not.

(...)

Explain.
The F-33 is not a super-plane. My aircraft may be 15-30% weaker than it, just do the math. As I said, they are better than most modern RL ones. I don't know why do you need further explanation. Is it the price? You can get SU-27s, MiG-29s, F-16s and even F-35s for under 50 million, too. Do they suck too?
The Macabees
08-12-2005, 21:57
I don't get the logic behind "the bigger the aircraft, the greater the speed with lesser thrust". I mean, having more mass, you'd need more (not less) thrust to fly faster. Anyway, I guess that's as far as my knowledge goes, so I can't really argue on the rest of your points.

And I'm certainly not off with prices, check this chart out:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img007/fighter_prices.gif

The F-33's still too expensive, specially because it can only fulfill one task, as opposed to my multi-roles.


Ironically enough, the F-22, an air superioty fighter, is more expensive than the F-35, a multi-role fighter; I guess that sorta throws your postulation out the window, no?

Well, this doesn't necessarilly have more mass; the majority of the mass comes through the volume of the aircraft, and with all the light weight materials sported on this aircraft weight should actually decrease. There's also an epidemic going around that exagerates the thrust of engines and how much is needed to X knots per hour.
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 22:00
Ironically enough, the F-22, an air superioty fighter, is more expensive than the F-35, a multi-role fighter; I guess that sorta throws your postulation out the window, no?
Heh, that's why the F-22 will most likely never enter mass production.
Space Union
08-12-2005, 22:05
Guys, don't flame. Artitsa please don't flame. Wingarde is by no means a horrible or bad aircraft designer. His aircraft is designed to do the job he intended it to do. It has the advantage that it is cheaper. If he wants to make one that can equal this, it will also have a similar price tag.

Just to note that this uses technology that is considered MT by almost everyone on NS.

Great job Mekugi. :) Don't fright if this keeps slipping and doesn't get many orders, just wait a while and you'll see that this will turn into a successful aircraft. I assure you that.
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 22:09
Guys, don't flame. Artitsa please don't flame. Wingarde is by no means a horrible or bad aircraft designer. His aircraft is designed to do the job he intended it to do. It has the advantage that it is cheaper. If he wants to make one that can equal this, it will also have a similar price tag.

Just to note that this uses technology that is considered MT by almost everyone on NS.

Great job Mekugi. :) Don't fright if this keeps slipping and doesn't get many orders, just wait a while and you'll see that this will turn into a successful aircraft. I assure you that.
Exactly, thanks, Space Union. And yes, Mekugi has proven this aircraft's made out of purely MT components. I implied Artitsa was PMT due to the pulse detonations engines he suggested, nothing more.
Artitsa
08-12-2005, 22:14
Sorry.
Omz222
08-12-2005, 22:14
OOC: Wingarde, regardless of how superior your aircraft are, this is Mekugi's thread. If you made a new plane, and someone budged in and came up with 100 reasons as to how your aircraft is supposedly "superior" and essentially taking over the current functions of the thread just to show how "multirole" and "cheaper" and "more capable" their plane is, then would you feel comfortable?

And I'm not looking for a reply to this - let's just put all of it to rest.

By far, the F-33, I must say, is a superb, if not above exceptional, product - especially for someone who hasn't designed too many planes before.
Wingarde
08-12-2005, 23:06
Omz, you've obviously not read the whole thread. I'll cut the off-topic there, I'm sorry.
The Silver Sky
08-12-2005, 23:37
OOC: Stupid tag features won't work.

*TAG*
Mekugi
09-12-2005, 03:01
Id appreciate of the 'you suck'/'no I dont' comments be left out of my thread. It is partially insulting and not to be permitted in this thread by any means. It is reasons like this that I sometimes dislike the mainstream of NS.

Wingarde your chart dosent state if those are production or purchase prices, and with few exceptions does it list comparable aircraft in system that would account for five to ten years of inflation. For the 2010/2015 era that was developed pretty much from the ground up (we have an almost non existant aerospace community) and thus most of it had to be developed, built and locally perfected before the infrastructure for its porduction could ever start...

Compared to say the USA whose Aerospace industry has been booming since the 40's those development costs count ya know... but forget it, Im not really here to argue and after 11 hours on my feet I dont feel it prudent to continue such discussions.

As for a larger aircraft with less thrust, you misread then, as I stated that a larger aircraft, more specifically the Mig-31 and Mig-25 achieved Mach three at alititude using both less efficent and less powerful engines.

To Space union, Artista, and Omz; Many thanx for your comments, and taking the time to post here I do appreciate it.

To Artista, Im really draggin a$s at the moment after a long day and will have an IC reply later, okay?
The Silver Sky
11-12-2005, 05:22
The Silver Sky and We Buy It Incorporated would like to purchase production rights to the F-33 Raven Air Superiority and Strike Fighter, we would also wish to purchase scematics and working models of the Thrust Vectored VPCB (Variable Post Compression Bypass) Turbofan engines to use on our own planes.

Please state your price, and if you wish, we have several weapon systems that we would be willing to trade for the Thrust Vectored VPCB (Variable Post Compression Bypass) Turbofan engines.

Thank you,
Five-Star General Marcus Cromwell
Adejaani
11-12-2005, 05:52
OOC: Agreed, this is a mighty impressive aircraft. Especially the picture! Any chance I could buy the design (or at least the physical layout)? No, I'm serious!
Layarteb
11-12-2005, 06:20
Well I like this oh yes I do. But I have quams against using foreign stuff in my own air force but I have to say this design is solid. Good luck with it.
Mekugi
12-12-2005, 02:43
[OOC: my sincere but delayed appologies for the umm, well delay.]

TSS: Being that we have remained allied for quite some time through the IADF and that we have seen no activites that would raise any concerns as to the transfer of production rights for both untis we would be glad to enter into negotiations (prefferbaly via TG or PM on the draftboard) for such an arrangement, we are quite pleased with your continued intrest.

Adejaani: [OoC: well what do you mean the physical layout, TG me and we can discuss this further, though im nto sure what you have in mind]

Layarteb:[OOC: many thanks for your kind comments, and actually the design is already under revision for elaboration so look forward to that, I just need to have the time to do so first.]
Tyrandis
12-12-2005, 02:55
OOC: Laser counter-measures are by no means PMT. I believe the United States already had such a system developed in the late 80's (Coronet Prince), but subsequently cut funding to the project after the collapse of the Soviet Union and thus the niche it was supposed to fulfill.

Also, I remember that one F/A-22 managed to decimate an entire squadron of F-15Cs during trials, I lost the link though. In any case, quality always surpasses quantity in terms of aircraft value.

On topic, I would be highly interested into acquiring a few of these excellent aircraft for myself; most of my combat aircraft are a tad delicate and maintenance intensive since I try to extract every bit of performance out of an airframe. Would it be possible for me to buy some fixed number of fighters and the prod rights to the engine only? I'll need replacements and I don't want to be stuck paying shipping every time a turbojet wears out.
Danmarc
12-12-2005, 03:10
The Republic of Danmarc is interested in making a large purchase of your F-33 Raven aircraft, however we are first looking to make a test purchase, to ensure quality of the merchandise.

For the time being, we would like to purchase 10 of your F-33 Ravens, at a cost of $165 million each, totalling $1,650,000,000. Funds will be wired upon confirmation of the order, with a potential for multi-billion in hardware in future orders upon our thumbs up from the Danmarc Royal air guard.

Thank you for your business.

The office of President Alexandre Smedley
The Republic of Danmarc
Mekugi
12-12-2005, 03:23
Tyrandis: We are glad to confirm your order up to a maximum of 300 craft if you so wish, as well domestic and secured production rights for the VPCB turbojets. Though the cost of production rights are currently still in negotiations.

Danmarc: We are happy to confirm your test order of ten aircraft, though with our limited exposure to your nation, our company may require further negotiations before we can clear a large order as at the current time, non-allied states are limited to maximum of 300 craft.
Space Union
12-12-2005, 03:26
See Mekugi, a little time and any great product will become a hot seller. :)
Hawdawg
12-12-2005, 03:33
The Holy Republic of Hawdawg is interested in studying this airframe for possible deployment with a new Pacific Rim Air Wing we are assembling. We wish to make an initial purchase of 20 aircraft @ 3.3 Billion USD. We will test these airframes for 6 months and then make a formal decision on an additional order of no less than 96 planes.

Sincerely,

Gordon Wells
Minister of Defense
Holy Republic of Hawdawg
Artitsa
12-12-2005, 03:49
*poke*
Mekugi
12-12-2005, 03:58
OOC: bah I really need a day off so Im not doing these at nearly midnight locally, both orders confirmed... Im losing my mind I swear...
Layarteb
12-12-2005, 04:20
OOC: Laser counter-measures are by no means PMT. I believe the United States already had such a system developed in the late 80's (Coronet Prince), but subsequently cut funding to the project after the collapse of the Soviet Union and thus the niche it was supposed to fulfill.

Also, I remember that one F/A-22 managed to decimate an entire squadron of F-15Cs during trials, I lost the link though. In any case, quality always surpasses quantity in terms of aircraft value.

On topic, I would be highly interested into acquiring a few of these excellent aircraft for myself; most of my combat aircraft are a tad delicate and maintenance intensive since I try to extract every bit of performance out of an airframe. Would it be possible for me to buy some fixed number of fighters and the prod rights to the engine only? I'll need replacements and I don't want to be stuck paying shipping every time a turbojet wears out.

Laser countermeasures are definitely not PMT. Hell there are laser scramblers for personal use against police, LOL. Many vehicles have employed laser scramblers. And that F-22 thing? Man it decimated Su-35s on a 10.1:1 ratio too! It can be found on wikipedia, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_21st_century_fighter_aircraft), which was done by DERA.
Scandavian States
12-12-2005, 04:59
[People shouldn't read too much into the DERA study. All the aircraft involved in that study either weren't up to the standards of today or were in the prototype stages and had little information available. Hell, even the Wiki article all but acknowledges that a lot of the info was best guestimate. However, that isn't to say I think the F/A-22 was overrated, if anything the ratio is a lot worse for the MiG. Think about it, not one USAF fighter has been lost to either MiGs or Sukhois in the last 20 years and even Boeing's official page for the F-4 Phantom II mocks the Russian-built aircraft by declaring the Phantom the "world's largest distributor of MiG parts". Every bit of combat experience and technological prowess the USAF has against Ruskie aircraft is being poured into the Raptor and JSF, and probably being leased out to NATO allies; don't you think the Russian claims are just a tad bogus and/or propaganda to generate much-needed sales? The US contractors don't need that, all they have to do is point and say, "Look at the combat record of our 4th generation fighters, now imagine what our 5th and 6th generation fighter can and will be able to do."

Also, don't put too much store into the Cape Hope exercises. They weren't designed so much as force-on-force combat ability tests but as joint operations. The latest round has USAF AWACS aircraft directing the best squadrons the Indian Air Force had, and picking up rather significant amounts of data on those aircraft, which the USAF previously lacked, in the process. Consider what other regional power has large amounts of those same aircraft and draw your own conclusions.]
Artitsa
12-12-2005, 17:18
so... am I confirmed? I am le Confused
Mekugi
13-12-2005, 01:56
ooc: yes but only secretly... publically no.