NationStates Jolt Archive

So. I figure I've been on here a while, and I've seen quite a deal, but one thing that's always puzzled me is why people continue to use economic sanctions as a means of protest, most of the time the person imposing the sanctions is either ignored(effectively at least, generally bynot being given the dignity of a response), laughed at, or told that their "sanctions" are going to have absolutely no effect on the economy they are sanctioning, because they were never trading with them in the first place.

So, I want to know, why do people even bother issuing sanctions anymore, is it becausethey don't want to get into a war they don't think they can win, but they still feel the need to protest, because they actually think it has some impact, because they'e afraid to do anything else? Why do people do it?

I think it's to protest. I've never imposed sanctions myself, but once I expelled a nation's ambassador over their excessively secular policies (I think this was early October, something about Muslim students being expelled for wearing Islamic garb) because I wanted to protest the action (10% of Kahanistan citizens are Muslim) and didn't think that it was worth going to war over (this was about the time Kahanistan and Xirnium were still enemies, so I had troops mobilizing for action elsewhere anyway.)

The way I see it, it's an attempt at realism. Real countries don't go to war without major provocation (ie. threats to their own security.) The cost, risk, and trouble are huge. Economic sanctions, however, are a good way to show disapproval without putting lives on the line.

It makes sense for real countries, so why not here as well?

I think it's to protest. I've never imposed sanctions myself, but once I expelled a nation's ambassador over their excessively secular policies (I think this was early October, something about Muslim students being expelled for wearing Islamic garb) because I wanted to protest the action (10% of Kahanistan citizens are Muslim) and didn't think that it was worth going to war over (this was about the time Kahanistan and Xirnium were still enemies, so I had troops mobilizing for action elsewhere anyway.)


I think I remember that thread... Anywho, there's a difference between saying "your ambassador is no longer wlcome in our nation, until this is rectified" and saying "We won't trade with you if you don't fix this" Case in point: You, AMF and Kattor(I think that's his name, too lazy to check) Kattor says "We're not going to trade with you", AMF replies "I care why? We never traded with you in the first place." And nothing really happens.

Personlly, as a warmongering, violent, almost constantly embattled individual, I say if you wanna protest somthing, do it with force, they'll get the message alot faster that way.

I think it's to protest. I've never imposed sanctions myself, but once I expelled a nation's ambassador over their excessively secular policies (I think this was early October, something about Muslim students being expelled for wearing Islamic garb) because I wanted to protest the action (10% of Kahanistan citizens are Muslim) and didn't think that it was worth going to war over (this was about the time Kahanistan and Xirnium were still enemies, so I had troops mobilizing for action elsewhere anyway.)
Hey, that's me.

But getting back on topic. Just like in real life, economic sanctions rarely work against developed nations. Especially if trade relations have not be formerly established.

It is, however, a good way of letting your people and the international world know you are opposed to the actions of that nation, without resorting to war.

This is in my opinion though, a good reason for people to do alot more "petty RPing". That is establishing diplomatic and trade relations in simple, short, RPs. These are great for young nations to get known and help you build a solid set of characters.

For example, Kahanistan imposing trade sanctions had no effect on my economy. However, I have a multi-trillion dollar trade relationship with Macisikan and would gladly kowtow politically in the face of sanctions from him.

Sanctions should have some effect, in a globalized economy even if one country does not directly trade with another sanctions will still have an indirect effect. For example if I were to sanction a nation of 400 million (Amestria has 1 billion) and say any corporation which operates in that country will be forbidden from opperating in Amestria, a lot of companies will choose the larger market... It did not matter that Amestria had not directly traded with that country...

And what is "direct trade" anyway, you have to assume that there is some going on... It is insane to assume that one only has direct economic relations with a few countries (unless ones economy is totally warped or the nation is an insane warmonger)...

I think players have to start RPing Sanctions and there effects properly! Even if the effect is small, there should still be some minor effect...

Hey, that's me.

But getting back on topic. Just like in real life, economic sanctions rarely work against developed nations. Especially if trade relations have not be formerly established.

It is, however, a good way of letting your people and the international world know you are opposed to the actions of that nation, without resorting to war.

This is in my opinion though, a good reason for people to do alot more "petty RPing". That is establishing diplomatic and trade relations in simple, short, RPs. These are great for young nations to get known and help you build a solid set of characters.

For example, Kahanistan imposing trade sanctions had no effect on my economy. However, I have a multi-trillion dollar trade relationship with Macisikan and would gladly kowtow politically in the face of sanctions from him.

Ok. So, we're generally agreed that sanctions are the way weaker nations make protests against much largernationsthey have no hope of taking on militarily, no matter how little real impact said sanction imposes?

Ok. So, we're generally agreed that sanctions are the way weaker nations make protests against much largernationsthey have no hope of taking on militarily, no matter how little real impact said sanction imposes?

Amestria (1.2 billion at the time) sanctioned this tiny country of 40 million because of that nations political repression. Although Amestria was far more powerful, it just was not worth going to war...

So, I do not agree, sanctions are a way of signaling your displeasure and hitting at another power without resorting to extreme actions...

Sanctions should have some effect, in a globalized economy even if one country does not directly trade with another sanctions will still have an indirect effect. For example if I were to sanction a nation of 400 million (Amestria has 1 billion) and say any corporation which operates in that country will be forbidden from opperating in Amestria, a lot of companies will choose the larger market... It did not matter that Amestria had not directly traded...

And what is "direct trade" anyway, you have to assume that there is some going on... It is insane to assume that one only has direct economic relations with a few countries (unless ones economy is totally warped or the nation is an insane warmonger)...

I think players have to start RPing Sanctions and there effects properly!

Ok, how about we use a little example then, AMF has just had sanctions imposed on him by a Nov 05 nation, AMF has the economy to buy that 05 nation without a truly major problem, sure it'd be expensive, but AMF's defense budget could likely swallow the 05 Nations entire GDP 2-3 times, and still have change left over.

Addressing the question of direct trade, there are so many nations on NS, and many are rather lrge, that you only treally need direct trade with 2-3, again, consider AMF, at that size there isn't much AMF really has to trade for anymore, and income from foreign trade isn't really an issue at that size either, so how do you hurt a Juggernaut like that through sanctions?(I use AMF because he's big, well known, and has an easy acronym to type,)

Ok. So, we're generally agreed that sanctions are the way weaker nations make protests against much largernationsthey have no hope of taking on militarily, no matter how little real impact said sanction imposes?
Yes. It also a way for much larger nations to do the same. Except with more effect.

Yes. It also a way for much larger nations to do the same. Except with more effect.

Assuming they had trade between them in the first place, otherwise it's an empty gesture, but with that qualifier I'll agree to your definition.

Assuming they had trade between them in the first place, otherwise it's an empty gesture, but with that qualifier I'll agree to your definition.
Correct. I again would like to beat a dead horse and remind as many nations as possible of the importance of establishing diplomatic and trade relations for the purposes of future RPs.

Ok, how about we use a little example then, AMF has just had sanctions imposed on him by a Nov 05 nation, AMF has the economy to buy that 05 nation without a truly major problem, sure it'd be expensive, but AMF's defense budget could likely swallow the 05 Nations entire GDP 2-3 times, and still have change left over.

Addressing the question of direct trade, there are so many nations on NS, and many are rather lrge, that you only treally need direct trade with 2-3, again, consider AMF, at that size there isn't much AMF really has to trade for anymore, and income from foreign trade isn't really an issue at that size either, so how do you hurt a Juggernaut like that through sanctions?(I use AMF because he's big, well known, and has an easy acronym to type,)

AMF is a special case (cough few nations are not that large cough)...

In any case, yes NS nations are larger then RL nations, but bigger populations also mean larger markets. For example China has a billion people and is a primary dumper of mass produced cheap goods, but it still imports a great deal and its economy is no where near the size of even Europe (with its 300 million people)...

And economies are driven by the invisiable hand (with differing amounts of government oversight and direction), so whose to say a company from say Amestria might open a factory in some minor nation where the wages are cheaper (Amestria has a service sector centered economy anyway)...

The GDP per person has a great deal of significance, for example Amestria has roughly the GDP per person of France or Italy! Sanctions with a nation will stop those people from going to that nation and spending money or purchasing products made in that nation (even if only one million engaged in economic activity benefical to the sanctioned nation it will have some effect over the companies involved...)

AMF is a special case (cough few nations are not that large cough)...

In any case, yes NS nations are larger then RL nations, but bigger populations also mean larger markets. For example China has a billion people and is a primary dumper of mass produced cheap goods, but it still imports a great deal and its economy is no where near the size of even Europe (with its 300 million people)...

And economies are driven by the invisiable hand (with differing amounts of government oversight and direction), so whose to say a company from say Amestria might open a factory in some minor nation where the wages are cheaper (Amestria has a service sector centered economy anyway)...


First, I'd make a "service" joke, but it'd be way too easy, and inappropriate in the extreme. The being said...

AMF is a special case, as are most of the nations that have sanctions regularly imposed on them, since they are generally the largest nations around, who have the clout to do whatever the hell they want to do, and, as AMF himself has demonstrated at least twice that I can think of, get away with it, even if 2-3 other countries mobilise against them.

You make a good point about China, in which, oddly enough(I can usually find a flaw in just about anything), I can find no flaws.

Same goes for the "wages" issue... You upset me, you have deprived me of my usual ability to find fault in anything...

even if 2-3 other countries mobilise against them.


OOC: Try 6.

Right now China is trying like hell to get Europe to open up more of its economy to Chinese goods, like D cup bras* and other underwear products. Why, because Europeans have a great deal of purchasing power and it would bring enourmous profits to the Chinese companies involved (and create solid economic growth to hold up the ruling party)...

As world economics in RL are so complex, laughing off trade sactions as "not effecting me" (unless you are a special case like AMF or Yallak) seems a cheap way of RPing... Whose to say that nation did not have economic relations with your country (direct or indirect)... And there should be some sort of effect RPed, even if it is simply people paying more for D cup bras*.

*A reference for those who read the readers comment section of the Ecomomist. ;)

OOC: Try 6.

Meh. 2-3, 6, where's the difference? 2 and 3 multiply to make 6, so it's not too horribly inaccurate... :p You still won...

Yeah unless the natgion is stupidly huge like AMF trade sanctions reallyh will affect them. Say a country my size, if 4 or five 250mil to 500 mil populations started placing trade sanctions and embargos on me then my economy would be in trouble..

As such, until i could get the sanctions lifted... i would rp and 20-25% less budget due to my economy being down 20-25%

OOC: Sanctions are, as one poster already mentioned, an attempt at realism. It's also a more realistic (and thankfully better) form of protest instead of saying "I will mobilize my troops". Certainly the effectiveness of sanctions is determined by how much trade exists between the two (or more) nations in the first place. To use a real-life example, Canada would probably not be affected greatly if Madagascar imposed trade sanctions, but would be severly affected if the US did (e.g. softwood lumber dispute). In case of NS, Vrak wouldn't be too bothered if a nation that we hardly ever heard of imposed sanctions, but would be more affected if a nation within KIST, the NDA, or the Order did something like that. Vrak would really be affected if a state within the FKC imposed sanctions on it. It depends on your level of contact.

Usually, the affected nation can find other markets but that does take time. Unless I'm mistaken, it can't be done overnight. And as far as a big nation only trading with 2-3 other ones (I hope I'm reading that correctly), well, you never want to put all your eggs in one basket. As a real-life example, because of the ongoing dispute with the US, Canada is looking to increase trade with China even more.

I don't really RP much differently if someone much smaller than me declares embargoes. As Britain proved during the US Civil War, raw materials can always be bought from somewhere else, so unless you can point out something that I dearly need from your country and you're not already a major trade partner, it ain't hurting me much.

I don't really RP much differently if someone much smaller than me declares embargoes. As Britain proved during the US Civil War, raw materials can always be bought from somewhere else, so unless you can point out something that I dearly need from your country and you're not already a major trade partner, it ain't hurting me much.

OOC: Oh, I completely agree with you. I do think that it can add to the rp, depending on how much the players want to see its effects. It's not like rping trading stuff is terribly exciting.

It's a means of protest and it's a diplomatic tool that's used in an attempt to apply pressure to another goverment using a tool besides war.

In the short-lived diplomatic feud between Sarzonia and Pacitalia, both sides also embargoed each other. We both were prepared to RP serious consequences to our economies if the economic tensions had continued.

The problem with this game is that there are so many nations and so many potential trading partners that for every country that halts trade with someone, there are many other countries that can step in and fill the gap. The set-up of this game with countries potentially having every resource they could ever want doesn't lend itself to the efficacy of economic sanctions.

But as an alternative to war, they make for interesting RP. Shame that not many players develop them out to their full potential.