NationStates Jolt Archive

There are some aspects of general NS RP that seem very strange, and so I've decided to write this thread about, and to suggest some better modes of play that are more realistic and ultimately more rewarding.

1) I have an amazing economy with 100% tax and massive defence spending. Pwnt, commie.

I see this a lot, and it's annoying. Everyone knows that you can manipulate the way that thirdgeek works so that you get some god-awful defence budget figure that's larger than many nations' economies. That doesnt mean that it could actually happen, and that doesnt mean that you arent godmodding if you use it in war. There are several issues.

1. If you have 100% tax, you most likely done have an amazing economy. A 100% tax rate means that all produce is taken by the Government and then re-allocated back to the people as need be. This means that the Government has to assess everyone's needs for everything and assign things to them, and then you have to cost of physically transporting everything and accounting for it both from the producer to the government and from the government to the people.

This is inherently less efficient than a freer economy, where things either go directly from producers to people or in any case the middle men dont have to decide who gets what and in what numbers - the people decide that themselves, which is much more efficient than employing people whose whole job is to determine these things. Not only is the 100% tax method less efficient, but it's going to get things wrong a good percentage of the time, and that will lead to unhappiness and starvation.

Note that point 1 is my opinion and may or may not be true. The main point of this section concerns military budgets, not tax rates per se.

2. In any case, you cant put an overly large percentage of your GDP into defence. Percentage of budget is largely irrelevent, but if you put a large percentage of GDP in, then that's a large section of your economy which is diverted from productive exploits into something that does not produce any wealth nor any products. Of course, this is bareable to an extent because the military is necessary, but once you start to put too much cash into it, it starts to ruin yuor economy. This means that your economy starts decreasing, which means that your high percentage of GDP is worth less anyway.

3. I know this doesnt apply to everyone who does this, but a lot of them seem to dislike communists. Well actually, you are the communist. Your state owns everything and allocates it to people. A capitalist economy requires a free market, ie. individual people owning and trading wealth.

This all means that as military spending increases, generally, GDP decreases.

Solutions to this:

1. Use the Sunset RPG calculator - This calculator famously gives people with high tax rates MASSIVE penalties in terms of GDP. I dont like it or even think it's that accurate really, but it may work for you.

2. Only use certain stats from Thirdgeek - I think this is the best option, and is what I personally do. Only use the GDP per Capita, GDP, Consumption, etc. figures from Thirdgeek and then just divide the GDP figure to get tax rate and then divide that figure to get spending on individual departments. Afterall, a real Government can change tax rates and spending in departments at will, so I dont see why you should have to wait for really specific issues to do so on NS.

2) "We declare war. The invasion fleet will leave in 2 NS days..."

Errr... no. This is perhaps the most annoying, IMO. Invasions fleets take a long time to prepare, what with all the supplies, troops and such all needing to be mobilised (I doubt anyone with a standing army big enough to launch an invasion with no recruitment will have the whole thing active at any one time), moved to ports and loaded onto ships. Not only that, but all of this can be seen.

Agreed, a lot of this can be done before war is actually declared, but unless you specifically post doing so I would be inclined to ignore you, or at least to prod you into RPing it properly (more on this later). I dont mean you should spend ages waiting for something to happen, but give the enemy a chance to attack your invasion preparations just like you'd give him the chance to attack your bombers before they drop their bombs.

It also might spark the other player to declare war, as you realistically CANNOT hide preparations for a major invasion, and it will be pretty obvious who you'll be going for if there's an on-going dispute.

In addition to this, it takes a long time and a hell of a lot of money to get troops to a foreign nation, and then you need lots and lots of supply ships trailing along behind to supply it. I would say that very few nations can actually launch a successful invasion on NS, and they would certainyl need a decent navy to defend all of this. I realise that most people want to leap on to the ground war, but spend some time on the naval war - it can be fun too.

3) "WTF that tank is godmod. IGNORED."

I've seen this happen a lot, and it's really annoying and pathetic. You dont have to straight-out ignore someone if they field something you dont like. Go through the following thought process when encoutering something you dont like:

1. Does it really matter? Will this actually have a major effect on the RP?

2. Will (s)he tone down this unit? I'll ask.

3. Can I ignore the specific unit or specific abilities of the unit but not the player?

4. If I threaten to ignore the player / incident entirely, will they tone it down?

Only if you have exhausted all of these options should you ignore the player. Ignores mess up RPs, as II is connected with massive webs of relationships between nations and players, and one player ignoring one other can have a klot of reprocussions for a lot of other players whoa re nothing to do with the incident and should only ever be used as a last resort, not as an excuse to get out of RPs that arent going well for you IC.

4) "WTFOMGBBQLOL you have an SD how do I destroy that you're a n00b!!!"

This is the most annoying of all, in my opinion. Either:

1. Find a way of destroying the SD with your normal ships. It isnt impossible, believe me.

2. Build your own SDs - Germany, America, Japan etc. didnt just cry "unfair" when Britain launched the HMS Dreadnought, they built their own. NEw weapons emerge all the time. If they're no good then dont bother with them, but if they are (and considering the sheer mass of moaning that SDs have created, a lot of people think they are) then you have to build your own, or drop out of the arms race. That's just the way it works, and it's the way it will always work.

3. Accept that you are not a naval power and spend the cash on something else.

PS. DO NOT RUIN THIS THREAD BY TURNING IT INTO ANOTHER SD ARGUMENT THREAD.

5) My people live under the absolute control of the state. There is no crime.

Theoretically you could do this, I suppose, but you have to RP the economic consequences. At the time of the collapse of the USSR, Poland was spending half of its budget on the secret police. This is clearly completely unsustainable, and the system the Poles had was nothing like as complex or expensive as what some NSers claim to have, and remember that as population and economy increases, so does the number of people you have to monitor.

In my opinion, it's more cost effective just to make the people happy enough that they dont want to rebel. If you make the punishments brutal enough, they wont risk it so long as they have enough food and entertainment. The Romans called it "Panem et Circenses" - "Bread and Games".

6) My Military and Police Budgets are Combined / My Military Grows its Own Food and Such

Errr... well this is just stupid. You may have put them all under the same title, but all this means is that what is called the "Defence" section is actually the "Defence and Police" section or the "Defence and People who Grow Food and Such for the Defence Bit" section.

You can combine your police and military if you really want, but that doesnt mean that you have any actual increased military or policing capabilities. You may have your police in military uniforms trained to use rifles and a bit of law that says "There men may be used to combat invasions and invade people" but that doesnt mean that they actually can be used that way for the same reason you cant not have a police force. Who's to stop dear old ladies being mugged and other such nastiness? Sure, you could bring in military reinforcements to help the police. But any state can do this.

Equally, if you justify your massive defence spending by saying that your military grows its own food and makes it's own ammo then that's fine. Just fine. It doesnt mean that you have any actual increased capabilties, it just means that you've moved a bit of the "Agriculture" section into the "Defence" section and the funds that go with it. This doesnt actually achieve anything, and I think a lot of people overestimate just how much extra they can get out of this anyway.

7) My Genetically Engineered Supersoldiers Have no Feelings and no Genetic Defects. Pwnt.

I'll deal with the two issues one at a time.

Genetic Engineering - As someone with an interest in microbiology and genetics (probably going to be my choice for uni) I find this simply bizarre. Genetically engineering and cloning complex things like humans requires massive amounts of time and money, most of the attempts fail and those that succeed show significant physical and mental defects.

Dolly the sheep required, IIRC, nearly 200 attempts, and she lived to an age considerably below the average life expectancy for a sheep despite being a famous genetic experiment who was thus very well cared for. You can have geneticly engineered soldiers if you really want - you might be able to remove certain genetic conditions like Down's syndrome, but you'll get a whole host of other defects, it will cost billions and you can equally well just, errr, not recruit people with Down's symdrome.

Feelingless Soldiers of Doom - Well, I dont know enough about psychology to know if this is possible or not, but for the sake of argument (as it is widely accepted) I will assume that it is. You then encounter a number of problems which can safely be divided up into two groups. The first is the disadvantages of fearless soldiers. They will not fall back, nor will they act in a very intelligent manner in the face of enemy fire unless given specific orders to act in a certain way. These may not be communicable in battle and, if the officers die, the soldiers will follow in short order. Training will help a lot with this, but you can only train for so many possible circumstances.

Fear, patriotism, devotion etc. can all be very powerful tools, and removing them can present some problems. Just as severe leprousy suffers could conceivably make good soldiers because they wont notice they have been shot and keep fighting, this also means that they probably wont seek medical aid and will probably accidentally burn themselves and injure themselves on the equipment anyway.

The second problem is that when you do a cost-benefit analysis, it's just not worth it. What do you have to do? You have to take people at birth (there's a great tendancy to clone them, or genetically engineer them which, as discussed earlier, will easily double the cost), pay for them to be fed, housed and trained until they're 16 or so at the very least whilst they are of little use to you at all and then put them into an environment where a single stray bullet could put an end to them. It just isnt worth it when you can recruit some suitably patriotic peasant for a thousanth of the cost (that wasnt a figure of speech, btw)

These soldiers may be useful as small units for specific operations, but as an army they will limit the useful size of your force so greatly for so little return that they are simply not a good investment, and I would never use them. If you claim to be able to have millions of these things then sorry, but you're just wrong.

I may add more as I think of them. Thanks for reading.

I disagree with the tax thing I think a planned (or as you call it communist :mad: ) economy would work at the same if not more efficient than a free market due to reduced crime from poverty and even lowering waste production from all those fat cats who burn money

also a police state would (in theory) work out to be very cost effective and still reduce crime albeit with the aid of brainwashing it would just need a hefty dose of isolationism and an iron fist that does not and must not compromise

things such as planned vs. free market are debated all the time you may think that a communist system would be in-efficient but some people think the opposite in short you cannot debate a government form since they all have there advantage/disadvantage in every field

I disagree with the tax thing I think a planned (or as you call it communist :mad: ) economy would work at the same if not more efficient than a free market due to reduced crime from poverty and even lowering waste production from all those fat cats who burn money
This is a very philosophical debate, but most economists I've spoken to hold the same views as me. A planned economy needs massive centralised beaurocracy which the needs to be adminstered itself by another beaurocracy and if the beaurocracy gets something wrong the whole economy dies, whereas a free market economy sorts everything out by itself. And "rich fat cats" dont burn money, they generally invest it, which allows other companies to start up.

also a police state would (in theory) work out to be very cost effective and still reduce crime albeit with the aid of brainwashing it would just need a hefty dose of isolationism and an iron fist that does not and must not compromise
No it wouldnt at all because the brainwashing would be MASSIVELY more expensive than any possible benefit you could get out of it. As I said, Poland at the collapse of the USSR spent 50% of its budget on the secret police, and they didnt do anything like as complex as brainwashing every single citizen.

things such as planned vs. free market are debated all the time you may think that a communist system would be in-efficient but some people think the opposite in short you cannot debate a government form since they all have there advantage/disadvantage in every field
*shrug* Look at real life. Look at War Communism in the USSR. Every place where a communist economy has been tried it has failed and the country has then switched to a more capitalist system. Look at China even. I'm willing to accept that a communist system could be used to create social equality which a free market economy is not capable of, but I see no evidence whatsoever that a planned economy is efficient in any sense of the word.

Yes, Praetonia, all of your arguments hold true IRL. However in a soceity like NS, in which you get to create how your citizens act and feel, lots of this stuff is plausible.

True, true. My main point was about people using 100% tax rates to justify stupidly huge military spending, not the 100% tax rates themselves. I shall add a disclaimer.

One thing I've noted some people doing is "My army does police duty as well, so they have a combined budget and I can deploy a massive military." The problem with that lies in the reduced effectiveness of your troops (at both roles) and the fact that a large number of the soldiers can't be deployed due to their being stuck with police duties. Ditto for large armies of genetically modified clones. Doing that is exceedingly expensive, and I'd imagine that, at a minimum, a similar nation could field 10 regular soldiers for every one of the clones.

Concern Two is valid, but this doesn't apply to rapid deployment units that can be deployed within a timeframe of a few days. However, those units are kinda expensive to maintain, and are rather vulnerable if you decide to pit it against a larger force. Especially concerning are the claims that 'im deploying 5 sds haha' or 'Im goinna to send [insert x number] amphibious assault ships to invade ur nation hah!11'

Ditto for large armies of genetically modified clones. Doing that is exceedingly expensive, and I'd imagine that, at a minimum, a similar nation could field 10 regular soldiers for every one of the clones.

This completely depends on what year and tech level the nation is RPing with. If it is 2100 and they can produce genetically enhanced super soldiers that come with complete knowledge of military training, than it may not be as expensive as regular human soldiers. Likewise, if the clones are "brainless" and just follow commands, you won't have to pay them...

No it wouldnt at all because the brainwashing would be MASSIVELY more expensive than any possible benefit you could get out of it. As I said, Poland at the collapse of the USSR spent 50% of its budget on the secret police, and they didnt do anything like as complex as brainwashing every single citizen.
That's all well and good IRL, but remember, this is NS. In the real world the USA has a GDP of $10 trillion and that's the largest there is... and of that, the latest budget is about $2.5 trillion. That's the wealthiest country in the world. In NS we have people with GDPs of $100 trillion+, which spend, say, $20 trillion on law enforcement alone—twice as much as the whole GDP of the wealthiest country in the real world, and probably 8-10 times as much as Poland at the collapse of the USSR.... definitely enough for that and more.

*looks around for those UN Cards*

This completely depends on what year and tech level the nation is RPing with. If it is 2100 and they can produce genetically enhanced super soldiers that come with complete knowledge of military training, than it may not be as expensive as regular human soldiers. Likewise, if the clones are "brainless" and just follow commands, you won't have to pay them...

Except that you have to pay for them for their entire lives. Don't need to do that with regular soldiers. Also genetic engineering is a tad bit more expensive than having one DI and 100 recruits.

One thing I've noted some people doing is "My army does police duty as well, so they have a combined budget and I can deploy a massive military." The problem with that lies in the reduced effectiveness of your troops (at both roles) and the fact that a large number of the soldiers can't be deployed due to their being stuck with police duties. Ditto for large armies of genetically modified clones. Doing that is exceedingly expensive, and I'd imagine that, at a minimum, a similar nation could field 10 regular soldiers for every one of the clones.

Firstly, clones are like any other product that is mass produced. The more you make, the cheaper it gets. Over time your technology becomes cheaper to maintain (fall of component prices) and the whole process becomes more streamlined. I'd also wager that a clone trained from birth could hold its own against ten soldiers given the right equipment.

As for the combined budgets, it doesnt concern me. Worked well for the Romans though. Also I think that it would actually be more effective because there would be no inter-branch relations between arms of the military, and so increase command and supply efficiency.

Mobilising huge numbers of troops for an invasion isnt too smart anyway, because if the fight comes to your soil then your stuffed.

Ditto for large armies of genetically modified clones. Doing that is exceedingly expensive, and I'd imagine that, at a minimum, a similar nation could field 10 regular soldiers for every one of the clones.
Now, this is very interesting. Some claim that their 'omg uber soldiers' are naturally trained to be savage killers, but wait... Wouldn't they be sorta hard to control in the military as well when the disobedient ones (well, it wouldn't be surprising if there are a lot of disobedient ones anyways, considering how they are trained from the outset) create trouble?

One thing I've noted some people doing is "My army does police duty as well, so they have a combined budget and I can deploy a massive military." The problem with that lies in the reduced effectiveness of your troops (at both roles) and the fact that a large number of the soldiers can't be deployed due to their being stuck with police duties. Ditto for large armies of genetically modified clones. Doing that is exceedingly expensive, and I'd imagine that, at a minimum, a similar nation could field 10 regular soldiers for every one of the clones.
True. Nations that combine military and police will run into problems. I have a similar situation, and have worked it out this way: The army is divided into two parts. There is a small army (ok, ~2 million troops), and navy and air force specifically for offensive operations—attacks. The combined police and military, the Imperial Guard, is for defensive operations—defending the homeland. Only the Imperial Guard does police duty. This is at the cost of not being able to have a huge army, navy, etc. But we have a smaller education budget as well because we train soldiers from birth.

This situation seemed plausible to me; are there any problems?

Now, this is very interesting. Some claim that their 'omg uber soldiers' are naturally trained to be savage killers, but wait... Wouldn't they be sorta hard to control in the military as well when the disobedient ones (well, it wouldn't be surprising if there are a lot of disobedient ones anyways, considering how they are trained from the outset) create trouble?
Yes...unless their savage killer-ness comes from drugs (as with the Bandurian Fanatics -- no, they're not even part of the military, they're criminals and prisoners injected with drugs that make them go berserk)...

Firstly, clones are like any other product that is mass produced. The more you make, the cheaper it gets. Over time your technology becomes cheaper to maintain (fall of component prices) and the whole process becomes more streamlined. I'd also wager that a clone trained from birth could hold its own against ten soldiers given the right equipment.

Even so, clones can still have errors. My sector is composed of clones, and we do it all the time...but there are still reports of clones' memories being erased, clones having gentic deficts, or even clones not learning anything. A clone of a great military genius may decide he's a great painter and will paint instead.

What I do, usually, is have a military force and intentionally put flaws in it. That way, I don't godmod. If I do godmod, I godmod me losing.

Firstly, clones are like any other product that is mass produced. The more you make, the cheaper it gets.

No, cloning doesn't work that way. Cloning doesn't work as a mass-production line. Cloning is a hand-crafted process, with hundreds of failures to every single success.


Over time your technology becomes cheaper to maintain (fall of component prices) and the whole process becomes more streamlined.

Doesn't work in every field however.


I'd also wager that a clone trained from birth could hold its own against ten soldiers given the right equipment.

Problem. Those 10 soldiers also have the right equipment. They may even have better equipment because the military was able to put more funds into weapon R&D by not trying to create clone soldiers.


As for the combined budgets, it doesnt concern me. Worked well for the Romans though. Also I think that it would actually be more effective because there would be no inter-branch relations between arms of the military, and so increase command and supply efficiency.

Unified things like that have a tendency to screw over certain parts of your military however. It isn't a good thing.


Mobilising huge numbers of troops for an invasion isnt too smart anyway, because if the fight comes to your soil then your stuffed.

And if they sink your invasion fleet, you're doubly SOL.

True. Nations that combine military and police will run into problems. I have a similar situation, and have worked it out this way: The army is divided into two parts. There is a small army (ok, ~2 million troops), and navy and air force specifically for offensive operations—attacks. The combined police and military, the Imperial Guard, is for defensive operations—defending the homeland. Only the Imperial Guard does police duty. This is at the cost of not being able to have a huge army, navy, etc. But we have a smaller education budget as well because we train soldiers from birth.

This situation seemed plausible to me; are there any problems?

I don't see any problems with that. It's basically the equivalent of just having a police force composed solely of Army vets and with a lot of weapons on hand in case of need.

As for the police problem, my solution is a combination of regular police units and a paramilitary law enforcement force (the People's Armed Police). The Omzian Army itself is banned from law enforcement, and while the PAP would never be used on the offensive in combat they would be used as militia units when the Omzian nation is invaded.

To be honest, there will still be problems with an army that also handles law enforcement regardless of whether it is separated or not (as in Banduria's case), which is why you might want paramilitary-type units to handle such matters instead.

No, cloning doesn't work that way. Cloning doesn't work as a mass-production line. Cloning is a hand-crafted process, with hundreds of failures to every single success.

We aren't talking about the technology existent in 2005. Clearly clone armies are based off of advanced technology in which they are more like a mass-production line. The same would have been said about making tables and chairs a few hundred years ago, and now look at it...


Doesn't work in every field however.

Got any examples in which it doesn't? Or are you just going to attempt to rebut his sensible argument without any base or fact.


Problem. Those 10 soldiers also have the right equipment. They may even have better equipment because the military was able to put more funds into weapon R&D by not trying to create clone soldiers.

This is the theory of Spec Ops. What would the point of Spec Ops and Special Forces be if they could be so easily taken down by normal soldiers?

That's all well and good IRL, but remember, this is NS. In the real world the USA has a GDP of $10 trillion and that's the largest there is... and of that, the latest budget is about $2.5 trillion. That's the wealthiest country in the world. In NS we have people with GDPs of $100 trillion+, which spend, say, $20 trillion on law enforcement alone—twice as much as the whole GDP of the wealthiest country in the real world, and probably 8-10 times as much as Poland at the collapse of the USSR.... definitely enough for that and more.

*looks around for those UN Cards*
Yeah, and the US is also considerably smaller in terms of population than NS nations. In terms of GDP per capita, the average NS nation is probably comparable to the United States. You would have to be mad to spend a fifth of your entire nation's yearly generation of wealth on law enforcement.

Civitas Americae - I added those.

BTW - This thread is based on MT RP. I dont really know much about FT and PMT RP. They seem to me just to be people making stuff up as they go along, which is fine and fun if you like that sort of thing, which I personally dont.

I'd also wager that a clone trained from birth could hold its own against ten soldiers given the right equipment.

Given the right equipment, any soldier can "hold their own" against a greater numerical force. Consider a single soldier inside a machine gun nest facing enemies charging up a hill.

Are you trying to make super clones or something? That would be inherently more expensive than the average grunt, who could just simply be armed with a big enough gun to kill this super clone. I suppose you are creating super clones with ninja skills too? How expensive will that be? It won't be cheap compared to the average soldier.

This is perhaps another point Praetonia can add to his list. The invicible super soldiers numbering in the millions bred for war.

I am around 2050 PMT tech and I use clones. Dont like it? Ignore me.

Cloning does work as a mass production line at first, with the embryos taken and put into vats. Then the product is taken and trained, which can be done in a variety of ways.

Your telling me that it would be cheaper to recruit, train, arm, armour, supply, keep happy and feild ten soldiers than it would be to produce, train, arm, armour, supply and field one clone?

You may think that unifying branches is a bad idea, but you provide no reasons. If your army was combined with the military then a certain percentage would be devoted to police duty, with more on active duty and more in reserve. Its perfectly feasable, eficient and streamlined and by all logic does allow you to combine budgets.

Also, if you want to take a dig at the Kraven Corporation (An IC ally and OOC friend of mine) then do it someplace else. If you want to question his credibility as a nation, then talk to him about it. You know how to telegram, dont you?

No, cloning doesn't work that way. Cloning doesn't work as a mass-production line. Cloning is a hand-crafted process, with hundreds of failures to every single success.

The thing that kills your argument is this:

NS is not the real world. NS is a world of elves, orcs, aliens, sentient mushrooms (yes, I've seen these on NS), shoobans, and so on. Not everything works true to life in this game, and people being pumped off a production line is not anything more out of the ordinary than a patch of moss growing legs and romping about.

Personally, I use 'cloned' soldiers, although over time I have taken them off a mechanized production line and have them birthed from organic womb farms. Some people may cry "ZOMFG NT F4IR!!!111", but I personally never exploit the fact but instead use it for compelling story. My Sentinels were never said to be some of the most effcient killers because they were cloned, but because they were trained from birth by a system that took generations to perfect.

I've paid my dues and invested my time to get to where I'm at, and I think I've done it in a manner that the RP community accepts.


Problem. Those 10 soldiers also have the right equipment. They may even have better equipment because the military was able to put more funds into weapon R&D by not trying to create clone soldiers.

This point is open to debate. It can be said that if a government has enough cash to invest in cloned soldiers, they obviously has enough money to invest in training and weapons, and as a result wouldn't lag too far behind as far as technology goes.

Besides, if it comes down to it, just wait until someone else makes something superior, then copy it (or reverse engineer, whatever you choose to call it).

SNIP

you seem to be forgetting a technocratic government also comes under a planned economy which was the brainchild of many great minds communism may be weaker than capitalism but that doesn’t mean forms of government like technocracy fall into the same pit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocratic_movement (suggest you read up)

you seem to be forgetting the rich have more gadgets and accessories that produce waste such as an insanely large TV’s for themselves and personal heated pools (in a power form of course)

brainwashing may seem expensive but that is only in the first generation e.g. you are taught democracy and equality in school so you are much much less likely to think otherwise take a poll if you want and measure it against people in North Koreaa poll if you want and measure it against people in North Korea

We aren't talking about the technology existent in 2005. Clearly clone armies are based off of advanced technology in which they are more like a mass-production line. The same would have been said about making tables and chairs a few hundred years ago, and now look at it...

If someone makes a case for how they've managed to solve all the problems with doing it, including the advanced aging, high failure rate, the extra risk of birth defect associated with IVF, etc. Just to make a point, with calves, there is currently a .77% success rate in cloning, with a third dying young. So that's about a 0.5% rate of successful cloning. For cows. Simply waving ones hand and saying "We have better technology" isn't sufficient with this.


Got any examples in which it doesn't? Or are you just going to attempt to rebut his sensible argument without any base or fact.

Food comes to mind. Prices do fall, but only because of supply and demand, the actual costs of making the food doesn't change at all.


This is the theory of Spec Ops. What would the point of Spec Ops and Special Forces be if they could be so easily taken down by normal soldiers?

They can be easily taken down by normal soldiers however. Put them on a battle front and their effectiveness is pretty much the same. The effectiveness of Special Forces lies in additional training to do missions that ordinary soldiers can't and, most importantly, in stealth. The first trait is useless for a large clone army and the second is nonexistant.

you seem to be forgetting a technocratic government also comes under a planned economy which was the brainchild of many great minds communism may be weaker than capitalism but that doesn’t mean forms of government like technocracy fall into the same pit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocratic_movement (suggest you read up)

you seem to be forgetting the rich have more gadgets and accessories that produce waste such as an insanely large TV’s for themselves and personal heated pools (in a power form of course)

brainwashing may seem expensive but that is only in the first generation e.g. you are taught democracy and equality in school so you are much much less likely to think otherwise take a poll if you want and measure it against people in North Koreaa poll if you want and measure it against people in North Korea
1) Technocracy and communism are one and the same, in my opinion. See Rezo's post near the bottomg of this page - http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=45&st=120

2) And those gadgets are made by people which creates jobs and money. The companies that make them export them. Where is the problem here?

3) This works so long as the environment these people are living in remains the same. If it starts to change then they will start to question what they have been taught, or if their environment is bad to start with. A lot of people in NK are actually challenging the government and smuggling out videos of human rights abuses. They arent brainwashed, they're just terrified. Oh, and NK is supported by American grain imports, as it has destroyed it's economy with OTT military and law and order spending through a planned economy.

The thing that kills your argument is this:

NS is not the real world. NS is a world of elves, orcs, aliens, sentient mushrooms (yes, I've seen these on NS), shoobans, and so on. Not everything works true to life in this game, and people being pumped off a production line is not anything more out of the ordinary than a patch of moss growing legs and romping about.

Thank you, AMF. This has been my point for a while in most arguments of this sort.

Equally I could argue that I destroy you with invulnerable tank crushing mutants who shoot lasers out of their eyes because "It's just a game." So long as you dont claim to have any advantage out of unrealisticness and it's just for fluff then that's fine, but this thread is concerning people who take this stuff seriously and claim it will actually give them an advantage.

http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=45&st=120


your going to need to quote (need an account)

your going to need to quote (need an account)
Ah... would you mind making one? Only the quote would be huge and I dont really want to spam the thread with it. If you dont then I'll TG it to you.

I am around 2050 PMT tech and I use clones. Dont like it? Ignore me.

Cloning does work as a mass production line at first, with the embryos taken and put into vats. Then the product is taken and trained, which can be done in a variety of ways.

Your telling me that it would be cheaper to recruit, train, arm, armour, supply, keep happy and feild ten soldiers than it would be to produce, train, arm, armour, supply and field one clone?

You may think that unifying branches is a bad idea, but you provide no reasons. If your army was combined with the military then a certain percentage would be devoted to police duty, with more on active duty and more in reserve. Its perfectly feasable, eficient and streamlined and by all logic does allow you to combine budgets.

Also, if you want to take a dig at the Kraven Corporation (An IC ally and OOC friend of mine) then do it someplace else. If you want to question his credibility as a nation, then talk to him about it. You know how to telegram, dont you?


Well, I will assume that you are directing your comments at me, even though I didn't bother touching upon branches of government.

Firstly, yes, I do have that option of ignoring you. I haven't given anyone a hard ignore since I started NS and am pretty willing to accept most everything. My beef comes with the idea that some people seem to think that all they have to do is say, "I'm PMT" or "I'm FT" and then wank till their hand grows numb.

Making a regular person (birth, look after for 18 years, then become an adult) is pretty expensive. Would a clone be cheaper? Certainly the technology surrounding the clone would be a helluva lot. And even if you make a clone baby, you still have to wait till maturation until it can be a soldier. Cutting down the time to adulthood I would think makes the process much more expensive.

No, I don't have the hard numbers in comparing the cost of a clone soldier to a regular soldier. Mainly because it depends on how you set up your society. If you are a nation just full of clone vats then sure, it may be less expensive. At least, you would see it as the most efficient way. But I can't see cloning being dirt cheap -even if the clone is comparable to an average human.

If you want to play with millions of clone soldiers having ninja skills and each one being able to kill 10 soldiers with their bare hands, go for it. NS is not the real world but the last time I checked, the law of gravity still applies. Meaning that there are some basic constraints that bind all of us. Call it a philisophical difference in roleplaying, but I think that "creative licence" is used far too often by a number of folks to make ridiculous claims and puff up their own chest.

If someone makes a case for how they've managed to solve all the problems with doing it, including the advanced aging, high failure rate, the extra risk of birth defect associated with IVF, etc. Just to make a point, with calves, there is currently a .77% success rate in cloning, with a third dying young. So that's about a 0.5% rate of successful cloning. For cows. Simply waving ones hand and saying "We have better technology" isn't sufficient with this.

Of course it is. If you want to get into the IRL argument about cloning than I will simply say that if you tried to make a clone twenty years ago versus today, your success rate would be much higher... Technology clearly affects the outcome of the production.

Food comes to mind. Prices do fall, but only because of supply and demand, the actual costs of making the food doesn't change at all.

You are clearly not thinking...

Better technology and better production systems make food much cheaper and easier to make than it otherwise would be. You can buy a loaf of white bread for less than a dollar now... you certainly couldn't do that fifty years ago if you include inflation rates.


They can be easily taken down by normal soldiers however. Put them on a battle front and their effectiveness is pretty much the same. The effectiveness of Special Forces lies in additional training to do missions that ordinary soldiers can't and, most importantly, in stealth. The first trait is useless for a large clone army and the second is nonexistant.

Yes, the effectiveness lies in additional training. Though that additional training includes better hand-to-hand combat, weapons skills, and strategy... all things that makes a soldier better.

I assume you aren't just marching your soldiers in columns towards the enemy lines. I am pretty sure war doesn't work like that anymore...

Take a trained recruit from the US Army and put him against a trained Spec Ops member... I guarantee you the Spec Ops wins 99% of the time.

I don't see why clones couldn't be used in special forces missions.

Simply waving ones hand and saying "We have better technology" isn't sufficient with this.

Yes it is, because NS isnt real. Honest, its made up. You say the current success rate for a good cow is 50%. Advance 50+ years down the line with care, attention and plenty of funding into human genetics and mass produced soldiers is feaseable. A few major breakthroughs and I expect an 80%+ success rate on humans by 2030, possibly earlier.

the last time I checked, the law of gravity still applies. Meaning that there are some basic constraints that bind all of us.

The law of gravity only applies if you want to adhere to it. If the person you are RPing with agrees that something like gravity doesn't exist... than it doesn't.

Every seen Jedi RPs? I assume they aren't using the same laws of the real world...

snip

2) how does this stop waste? and how does workers working for food (taking it to extreme capitalism) provide any good for the market all it does is increase immigration at the expense of the citizen

3) NK is as much an example as Somalia they both have basket case leaders (in Somalia its the warlords) also NK is failing because of poverty creating an hostile environment starting up peoples natural reflex of overthrowing the leader

The law of gravity only applies if you want to adhere to it. If the person you are RPing with agrees that something like gravity doesn't exist... than it doesn't.

Every seen Jedi RPs? I assume they aren't using the same laws of the real world...

You have a point in that rp is consensual. Still, if "Jedi RPs" are based off Star Wars, does gravity still apply in the SW universe? Looked like it to me when I watched the shows.

Ah... would you mind making one? Only the quote would be huge and I dont really want to spam the thread with it. If you dont then I'll TG it to you.

I'm in for a long wait for that e-mail your going to have to tele it to me:(

2) how does this stop waste? and how does workers working for food (taking it to extreme capitalism) provide any good for the market all it does is increase immigration at the expense of the citizen
Errr... extreme capitalism doesnt equal people being paid less. It equals people whose skills are worth less being paid less. And what does this have to do with immigration? Exports = wealth = wages and jobs + investment in more companies = upward cycle of rising wages as firms compete for labour.

3) NK is as much an example as Somalia they both have basket case leaders (in Somalia its the warlords) also NK is failing because of poverty creating an hostile environment starting up peoples natural reflex of overthrowing the leader
Errrr... no, Somalia is unstable. North Korea on the other hand is perfectly stable, and has been destroyed by its Communist Government. Why do you think South Korea is so much richer, despite having the same starting environment?

Well, I will assume that you are directing your commets at me, even though I didn't bother touching upon branches of government.

Firstly, yes, I do have that option of ignoring you. I haven't given anyone a hard ignore since I started NS and am pretty willing to accept most everything. My beef comes with the idea that some people seem to think that all they have to do is say, "I'm PMT" or "I'm FT" and then wank till their hand grows numb.

If you want to play with millions of clone soldiers having ninja skills and each one being able to kill 10 soldiers with their bare hands, go for it. NS is not the real world but the last time I checked, the law of gravity still applies. Meaning that there are some basic constraints that bind all of us. Call it a philisophical difference in roleplaying, but I think that "creative licence" is used far too often by a number of folks to make ridiculous claims and puff up their own chest.

My post was to Civitas Americae, but your point are worth replying to. At no point have I claimed that my soldiers were, are or ever will be invincible; that the process is without expendiature or that clones would hammer soldiers 1000 times out of 1000.

Clones have their advantages but they have nothing that cannot be achieved by training and brainwashing of normal soldiers. Where the person you arm and field comes from is of little difference in war, it is how they are trained that counts.

Straight off, clones are actually at a disadvantage to normal soldiers. That is where genetic engineering comes in; giving you physically stronger and mentally sharper soldiers who will obey an order to the letter and jump in front of a tank for their superior.

I prefer clones because my particular method of producing them takes six months to grow and then some years to train. Because my method does not involve accelerating their growth, I can expect 30 to 40 years of service from a soldier.

I could take children from birth, train them to kill for every waking second and brainwash them while they sleep to get the same result, but I find that the concept of clones reflects my nation better. I also find that clones have more of a sense of unity than others, and they are effective terror weapons against conscripts or poorly trained soldiers.

I have to say that #1 doesn't apply to everyone. For example I'm a good example: I'm a capitalist country not a communist one but have 100% tax rate. But this is because I'm an Enterprisist country. This is a system of capitalism as follows:

It works by the theory that corporations are good for the nation. Corporations are given 2 seats in the Chamber of Electorates, Space Union's legislative branch, and compose most of the Executive Branch. For this reason, they get tons of tax breaks to the point of 0% corporate tax. So to run the government, the people pay 100% of their taxes to the government. To house the people, the corporations house, feed, and provide services to the citizens at a set standard of living. This is usually above $40,000 per person.

Now as you can see, I'm not communist.

Ah, they have that in the UAE dont they? Well you would be an exception I guess, but you still wouldnt be able to use it as an excuse to justify massive percentage military spending.

[QUOTE=The Imperial Raven]Firstly, clones are like any other product that is mass produced. The more you make, the cheaper it gets. Over time your technology becomes cheaper to maintain (fall of component prices) and the whole process becomes more streamlined. I'd also wager that a clone trained from birth could hold its own against ten soldiers given the right equipment. QUOTE]

Some things can only get so streamlined. Look at cars, even though we make millions of them a month they are still expensive enough that only 1 or 2 is profitable. Also if the goverment plans to spend a lot of money on making it more streamlined you run into the thing that Praetonia should mention. Inflation and your currency. If you spend a lot of money infaltion will increase and with that a steady increase of prce for imports.

[QUOTE=The Imperial Raven]
As for the combined budgets, it doesnt concern me. Worked well for the Romans though. Also I think that it would actually be more effective because there would be no inter-branch relations between arms of the military, and so increase command and supply efficiency.QUOTE]
Centralized commands do not work. Look at how hard it would be and the gross in-efficiency it would cause if lests say the German Army and Airforce were one with the SS? That would kill almost all tank advancements and tatical advancements because more people will be needed to over-see other peoples departments and not even doing anything with thiers.

My most best aguement though is that some people here act like money and inflation do not change. If you throw enough money at it and given enough time you will have an ultra army of clones that kill with no emotion. Throwing money does nothing. Einstien wasn't one who had money thrown at him but he invented more then most companies. If our currency falls then a lot of things happin. The most obvious is the increase in imports, which then makes the "cost of living" higher. Sadly the corporations do not need to pay more and the people have the same wages. This produces wide rioting. Your country falls shortly there after.

Errr... extreme capitalism doesnt equal people being paid less. It equals people whose skills are worth less being paid less. And what does this have to do with immigration? Exports = wealth = wages and jobs + investment in more companies = upward cycle of rising wages as firms compete for labour.

ever heard of the industrial era and have you ever heard of southern U.S farmers using illegal immigrants (they even had the cheek to protest The U.S border control was catching too many)

the amount of illegal immigrants is extreme in an NS as well nation due to the sheer number of people fleeing from all those psychotic dictatorships


Errrr... no, Somalia is unstable. North Korea on the other hand is perfectly stable, and has been destroyed by its Communist Government. Why do you think South Korea is so much richer, despite having the same starting environment?

Somalia isn’t really unstable so long as you have the money to pay for a policeman and all the other people you would need in a sense the USD is King

South Korea managed economic recovery from hefty western aid Russia didn’t care and China was economically devastated so couldn’t help NK and NK needs to fund an army to protect itself from America (so it says anyway) the U.N ban on exports from NK didn’t help either (though NK using it would be a long shot)

Yes it is, because NS isnt real. Honest, its made up. You say the current success rate for a good cow is 50%. Advance 50+ years down the line with care, attention and plenty of funding into human genetics and mass produced soldiers is feaseable. A few major breakthroughs and I expect an 80%+ success rate on humans by 2030, possibly earlier.

You misread me. 0.5%

You misread me. 0.5%

Thats irrelevant, progress will still be made. Read my response to Vrak, and know that your views on this will not change my mind.

and NK needs to fund an army to protect itself from America (so it says anyway) the U.N ban on exports from NK didn’t help either (though NK using it would be a long shot)
The reason for this isn't because of the KPA's purposes and missions (even though its main priority is an invasion of the ROK), but rather the fact that the DPRK relies on its army for survival. Without the army's backing the Kims would be practically powerless and its policies would collapse, hence why the North Koreans have to make the military prosper, thus spend so much on the military.

However, considering how many NS nations aren't exactly North Koreas anyways...

hmmm, I suppose I should throw in my two cents seeing as my nation is under attack from certain parties.

I do not field millions of Super soldiers, Yes the Capitol Police are enhanced, but not my geneticaly modifiying the Genome or their DNA, but by pumping them with various natural steriods and other drugs, their minds are conditioned even before birth via sending electronic signals directly into their brain, stimulating its growth to wipe out emotions and make them perfectly obident without fail,

they are not clones, they are all geneticaly different, using living wombs from captured women

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9883891&postcount=121


I do however use clones, but the resource cost to produce them and alter them into the Sardaukar phase 4's is costly and time consuming, Sardaukar are used sparingly and i only have small amount of them, during the cloning process out of every 5, 2 are unusable and are either disposed of, or sent into the Corporate mining complexes.

My nation is based around, The Borg, Equilibrium, 1984, brazil, some aspects of dune, some 40k and jin roh, however every part of these ideas have been altered to add flavour to my nation.

this is a free form RP, and its the only place where i have been truely able develop and explore the Idea of the Corporation, something that I created 7 years ago.

ever heard of the industrial era and have you ever heard of southern U.S farmers using illegal immigrants (they even had the cheek to protest The U.S border control was catching too many)
19th Century =/= now.
Illegal immigrants are by virtue of being at the mercy of their employers and possesing almost no skills an exception, not the rule.
the amount of illegal immigrants is extreme in an NS as well nation due to the sheer number of people fleeing from all those psychotic dictatorships
Where do you get this data from? I suspect that most of these psychotic dictatorships would object to you saying that large numbers of their citizens are able to flee.
Somalia isn’t really unstable so long as you have the money to pay for a policeman and all the other people you would need in a sense the USD is King
If you have to pay for a policeman then I'd say it's pretty unstable. And, errr, Somalia doesnt actually have a police force, btw, it's ruled by random warlords.
South Korea managed economic recovery from hefty western aid Russia didn’t care and China was economically devastated so couldn’t help NK and NK needs to fund an army to protect itself from America (so it says anyway) the U.N ban on exports from NK didn’t help either (though NK using it would be a long shot)
Actually NK is less wealthy comparatively than before it became Communist. Not only does it have no exports (it couldnt really help that) but it's also ruined its internal economy which is still crap despite massive amounts of US aid (in exchange for which NK apparently doesnt build nuclear weapons).

19th Century =/= now.
Illegal immigrants are by virtue of being at the mercy of their employers and possesing almost no skills an exception, not the rule.

um Now = industrial era + socialism + robotics

Where do you get this data from? I suspect that most of these psychotic dictatorships would object to you saying that large numbers of their citizens are able to flee.

then I would object saying that all but police states have any hope of controlling emigration

If you have to pay for a policeman then I'd say it's pretty unstable. And, errr, Somalia doesnt actually have a police force, btw, it's ruled by random warlords.

* do you pay taxes?

* actually its pretty stable considering think of the warlords territory being a separate nation

* the police are the warlords army funded with protection money

* warlords who have money

Actually NK is less wealthy comparatively than before it became Communist. Not only does it have no exports (it couldnt really help that) but it's also ruined its internal economy which is still crap despite massive amounts of US aid (in exchange for which NK apparently doesnt build nuclear weapons).

NK government is terrible though and hasn't done its job at all

I'd say that Clone soldiers have no actual advantages over natural soldiers and emontionless soldiers are actually worse then normal soldiers, The ability to reflect on experience to be inspired to do the unexpected to fight for your friends home family people and nation. Ideals are a powerful thing and soldiers with emotion who beleive in the ideals of their nation and are well equipped would beat a clone army or emotionless army that is also equipped in the same manner.

Look at it this way Emotionless Soldiers yes they won't rout because of lack of Morale but they also won't benefit from Boosts to Morale, Also since they don't fear death they won't seek to prolong their lives and because of that they won't seek to prolong their lives and will either not come up with creative strategies out of desperation, neither will they retreat unless ordered as whether they survive or not means nothing to them.

Clone Soldiers also have their benefits yes they can be enhanced but the cost and failure rate is also something to be considered, I accept Clone Armies as a viable war machine but I also expect however if they have been genetically modified to be stronger and the like, for the player to have weaknessess. Clone's will have identical DNA by their nature meaning Germ Warfare by other nations can be horrifyingly effective. Sabotaging the user's cloning facilities and afterwards handing that nation a major defeat will then leave that nation in major trouble as they will have very little time to assemble a natural army and may not have the experience to do so. Also a Nation that uses Clone Armies their commanders will also more than likely view them as disposable meaning that they would be quite happy to use Frontal assaults simply because they can afford the casualties, while a Natural Commander of natural men would think of each of his men as precious and less likely to think of them as a number.


If a Nation did not accept certain weaknessess and fielded a clone army simply saying that every single part of their armed forces were perfect then I would call godmod and ignore them perfection in any form does simply not exist it is a human concept and a flawed one at that.


My nation is culturally unique, they are fanatical they don't actually see the point of crime, after all why do they need to commit crime? The Government makes sure no one is homeless, Centuries of isolation has meant that a society where people have learnt that they benefit best from working together for mutual gain is far better than working for personal gain to the exclusion of all others, I don't claim that I need to spend less on Law and Order, Merely that any surplus I have in the Law & Order Budget goes to the Defence part of the Budget for the 3 years of Compulsory Army Service.

I personally have no problem with sending in one of my Armies against a Clone Army of Similar size as I know that the advantages and disadvantages of both are pretty equal and that the real deciding factor will be how effective the clones training was and the effectivesness of strategy and equipment of both sides.

um Now = industrial era + socialism + robotics
That's an interesting interpretation and one I completely disagree with.

then I would object saying that all but police states have any hope of controlling emigration
Generally psychotic dictatorships are police states.

* do you pay taxes?
A pay VAT, but even if I didnt I would still get protection from the police. It isnt the same thing. Tax funds policing but it isnt a condition for policing to protect you.

* actually its pretty stable considering think of the warlords territory being a separate nation
lol

* the police are the warlords army funded with protection money
Therefore they arent police.

* warlords who have money
...and?

NK government is terrible though and hasn't done its job at all
Yes. Most communist governments are terrible.

I'd say that Clone soldiers have no actual advantages over natural soldiers and emontionless soldiers are actually worse then normal soldiers, The ability to reflect on experience to be inspired to do the unexpected to fight for your friends home family people and nation. Ideals are a powerful thing and soldiers with emotion who beleive in the ideals of their nation and are well equipped would beat a clone army or emotionless army that is also equipped in the same manner.

Look at it this way Emotionless Soldiers yes they won't rout because of lack of Morale but they also won't benefit from Boosts to Morale, Also since they don't fear death they won't seek to prolong their lives and because of that they won't seek to prolong their lives and will either not come up with creative strategies out of desperation, neither will they retreat unless ordered as whether they survive or not means nothing to them.

Clone Soldiers also have their benefits yes they can be enhanced but the cost and failure rate is also something to be considered, I accept Clone Armies as a viable war machine but I also expect however if they have been genetically modified to be stronger and the like, for the player to have weaknessess. Clone's will have identical DNA by their nature meaning Germ Warfare by other nations can be horrifyingly effective. Sabotaging the user's cloning facilities and afterwards handing that nation a major defeat will then leave that nation in major trouble as they will have very little time to assemble a natural army and may not have the experience to do so. Also a Nation that uses Clone Armies their commanders will also more than likely view them as disposable meaning that they would be quite happy to use Frontal assaults simply because they can afford the casualties, while a Natural Commander of natural men would think of each of his men as precious and less likely to think of them as a number.


If a Nation did not accept certain weaknessess and fielded a clone army simply saying that every single part of their armed forces were perfect then I would call godmod and ignore them perfection in any form does simply not exist it is a human concept and a flawed one at that.


My nation is culturally unique, they are fanatical they don't actually see the point of crime, after all why do they need to commit crime? The Government makes sure no one is homeless, Centuries of isolation has meant that a society where people have learnt that they benefit best from working together for mutual gain is far better than working for personal gain to the exclusion of all others, I don't claim that I need to spend less on Law and Order, Merely that any surplus I have in the Law & Order Budget goes to the Defence part of the Budget for the 3 years of Compulsory Army Service.

I personally have no problem with sending in one of my Armies against a Clone Army of Similar size as I know that the advantages and disadvantages of both are pretty equal and that the real deciding factor will be how effective the clones training was and the effectivesness of strategy and equipment of both sides.

Some nice points raised there, but in the case of my Military force "The Capitol Police"

they are emoitionless, and have no regard for their own safety, but the command relay and their field commanders realise the resource costs of these soldiers and won't simply throw them at the wall of guns just because they can and the soldiers won't feel anything, so Tactics come into, The Command relay and Field commanders have video feeds to each of the units so they can see whats happening up ahead,

The Capitol Police are in no way near perfect, but the Corporation feels IC that they are, purely as a propaganda means, they are stronger and faster more athletic than normal soldiers, but that is through many years of intensive training, even though their growth is accelerated down to two years, they still have to be trained to use the armour, weapons, tactics etc.

What makes the Capitol Police truely formidable is their armour, the way they move in a squad formation maximises the protective capabilities of each soldier, each solider covering the other soldiers major weak pointsm however Capitol Police Protect Gear is only truely effective in an urban environment, which is why the CP are usualy deployed Directly into an urban area, Sardaukar phase 4's however are usualy deployed out in the open, able to absorb large amounts of damage while still maintaining the ability to fight,

Sardaukar are hard to kill, but not impossible..

there is one major weakness that so far no one has discovered.

You have a point in that rp is consensual. Still, if "Jedi RPs" are based off Star Wars, does gravity still apply in the SW universe? Looked like it to me when I watched the shows.

First of all, all I said was the same laws don't apply.

Second of all, had you noticed that some of the Jedi can jump uncharacteristically high using the force.

Since your army has weaknessess is the reason WHY I accept it, plus when Bickering is kept away they're enjoyable.

However though it would be interesting to see how efficiently they worked say the Command Relay was cut off and someone say either blew up or captured your headquarters. Personally I'd consider the big weakness of your army is precisely that, loosing contact with command. Emotionlessness and fearlessness are fine qualities if they are backed up with other admirable qualities, by themselves they are worthless.

Not that I want to turn this into a critique of other nations armies (might be an interesting thread to make) but another weakness of your army is like what Torontia said is your lack of an air force, AA can only do so much and yes it can be effective but it's far easier to actually pin down then a fighter, therefore in theory it would be easier to knock out your AA and if you kept your AA nearer the back where it would be safe it would also leave the outer edges of your forces vulnerable and a skilled commander would pick up on that and simplt use his air power to break up the edges and then drive into the center to shatter the AA.Sardukar however though are another Kettle of fish the sheer survivability of them and the amount of firepower required actually prompted my Military Command to commision a counter or analogue (not deploying it for a 3 week to 1 month RL period to accurately reflect R&D time Prototypes may find their way out in 2 weeks)

It really depends what people built their armies round, yours seems to be very effective psychologically however though for example in say My army I'd consider Psychological effects secondary to maximum flexibility and Battlefield control and then Speed is a large factor, in itself that can have weaknessess. No army can be perfect it's simply not possible. Other Armies would revolve entirely round the deployment of tanks and so on so forth.

Propganda a fine tool, I use it a lot myself except for Novacom a lot of it's true, and it's mainly used for inspiration since Novacom has never had a civil war, Religon was crushed completly and utterly and cast away 7,000 years ago and the Ideals of the Nation mean that Propoganda only enhances the effectiveness of my Natural soldeirs, the only Genetic Modification floating around in my nation was a massive program over 50 years ago which essneitally was to eliminate genetic diseases and the genes for things like Cerebal Pausy and that was done population wide. Strange though considering since there are quite a few similarities there are just as many differences.

I agree with most of the points raised, but I do have a few complaints.

1) 100% tax rates being inefficient: if you simply don't pay them in the first place for their labor, redistribution doesn't really impact the process negatively. Properly run, a planned economy such as this can be just as efficient as a free economy, if not more so. The trick, of course, is running it properly.

2) Genetic engineering in soldiers: I agree with the cloning bit. Cloning humans is inherently impractical in MT. However, genetically modifying them is rather simple. Retrovirii capable of modifying the human genome have already been introduced in the experimental phase at least, and are used as therapy for several genetic diseases. It would be a simple measure to modify the genome to crank up hormone production, thyroid activity, etc.

I agree with most of the points raised, but I do have a few complaints.

1) 100% tax rates being inefficient: if you simply don't pay them in the first place for their labor, redistribution doesn't really impact the process negatively. Properly run, a planned economy such as this can be just as efficient as a free economy, if not more so. The trick, of course, is running it properly.
YOu still have to move everything to point a) to point b), assess who needs what and where and then relocate everything from point b) to points c) - zzzzzzzzzz). Massive beaurocracy, basically, as opposed to people going to the things they need and choosing for themselves how much they need.

2) Genetic engineering in soldiers: I agree with the cloning bit. Cloning humans is inherently impractical in MT. However, genetically modifying them is rather simple. Retrovirii capable of modifying the human genome have already been introduced in the experimental phase at least, and are used as therapy for several genetic diseases. It would be a simple measure to modify the genome to crank up hormone production, thyroid activity, etc.
You miss out the part where they tend to... errr... kill the patient. At least in all the trials I've read about. But I agree, there is some potential there, just probably not in MT. As for hormones... well it would be easier just to inject them, but I hear this tends to cause brain damage.

First of all, all I said was the same laws don't apply.

Second of all, had you noticed that some of the Jedi can jump uncharacteristically high using the force.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that in Star Wars and in all the other movies that the law of gravity doesn't apply? Aren't the "jedi rps" based off the star wars movies and books?

For crying out loud, when Luke jumped out of the freeze pit when Vader's back was turned he was still overcoming gravity. Sure, he used the Force to make incredible leaps, but gravity was still there. What about when Luke was training with Yoda? Do you remember what happened when he lost his concentration?