NationStates Jolt Archive

It had finally come down to this. The naval staff of Civitas Americae was bitterly divided over the future of the Navy. The traditional Carrier Commanders insisted that the airpower of the carrier, and only the airpower of the carrier, would prevail in a modern naval battle. The so-called ultratraditionalists advocated mixing the fleet with battleships, utilizing new technology to create battleships with longer range and power. It was a return to the Dark Ages as the Carrier Commanders put it. Neither side would give in. Finally, frustrated at the lack of progress, Emperor Paul VII ordered a simulated wargame. The results of the wargame would be used to determine the validity of the theories, and the future of the Civitas Americae Navy.

Blue Force is commanded by Civitas Americae and is the ultratraditionalist fleet. Red Force is commanded by Atheisism and is the pure carrier force.

Rules of the war game:

MT only. ETC and EM rifling are considered MT.

All ships are RL, with the exception of the proposed Saint George-class battleship. (http://s13.invisionfree.com/The_NS_Draftroom/index.php?showtopic=184&st=15&#entry279765)

Fleets shall be composed around 12 capital ships and however many escorts personal doctrine requires.

Satellite recon is limited to "He's thataway"

Fleets start off one thousand miles away from each other. There are no ports, and the engagement takes place in a lake that is a perfect circle with a radius of two thousand miles. For the purposes of this engagement, there are no fuel issues with non-nuclear ships and every three days half of each ships magazines are replaced.

Blue Force fleet:
8 Nimitz-class carriers
4 Saint George-class battleships
Current escort doctrine:

A battleship or carrier only has three SSNs, four AAW cruisers, and two ASW frigates assigned to escort it for instance. But each of those AAW cruisers has three destroyers escorting it (a mix of AAW and ASW) and each of those destroyers has two ASW frigates escorting it. Thus, each capital ship, while only having nine escorts assigned to it, actually has forty-five escorts.

Thus there are 36 Seawolf SSN, 48 Ticonderoga cruisers, 96 Arleigh Burke destroyers, 48 Spruance destroyers, and 312 Oliver Hazard Perry frigates.

Current air complement is:
56 F-21 Attack Super Tomcats
4 E-2C Hawkeyes
8 S-3/A/B Vikings
4 EF-21 Super Growlers
4 SH-60F Seahawks
2 HH-60H Seahawks

Your link to the Saint George dosen't work.

I like the idea of "F-21 super attack tomcats". An RL complement would be more like 40 Hornet or A-6, 30 F-14 and 20 support planes.

Before we get started, we have to agree on effective SAM range. Apparently you're using the Standard. If you use some wierd NS million-mile-range missile, I'm okay with that, as long as it can't turn on a dime (or rather a very, very big dime). I think that the max practical range (range where it can get at least 25% hits) for a SM-2 ER, considering jamming, maneuverability lost to propellant burn etc. against an aircraft at 20,000 feet supported by carrier EW planes is 100 miles. Do you agree? This is an important decision.

edit: By pure carrier, do you mean unescorted? I'm in favor of escorts, it's just that I think big guns are useless.

Your link to the Saint George dosen't work.

I like the idea of "F-21 super attack tomcats". An RL complement would be more like 40 Hornet or A-6, 30 F-14 and 20 support planes.

Before we get started, we have to agree on effective SAM range. Apparently you're using the Standard. If you use some wierd NS million-mile-range missile, I'm okay with that, as long as it can't turn on a dime (or rather a very, very big dime). I think that the max practical range (range where it can get at least 25% hits) for a SM-2 ER, considering jamming, maneuverability lost to propellant burn etc. against an aircraft at 20,000 feet supported by carrier EW planes is 100 miles. Do you agree? This is an important decision.

edit: By pure carrier, do you mean unescorted? I'm in favor of escorts, it's just that I think big guns are useless.

Fine with me for SM-2ER range. Escorts are perfectly acceptable, pure carrier simply means it doesn't use battleships.

You have to register for the forums to be able to read the stuff there. Here's the stats on it though.

Saint George-class battleship

Length: 950 feet, 4 inches
Beam: 115 feet, 11 inches
Speed: 37 knots
Complement: 800 officers and men
Drive: 2x A4W nuclear reactor, 4x electric drive screws
Armor: 14 inch side armor, 9 inch deck armor
Armament: Four triple 18-inch ETC turrets with EM rifling, 12 Phalanx CIWS, 8 Rolling Airframe Missile launchers with 21 missiles each
Displacement: 85,000 tons
Draft: 39 feet, two inches

The guns have a maximum range of 150 miles.

Sounds good. I'm inferring that you want me to post my fleet, so I will. My fleet is equal in dollar terms to yours. This is all wargaming, though, because I don't have a real NS surface fleet.

Here's mine:

10x Nimitz with the air wing you mentioned
36 Seawolf
48 Tconderoga
96 Arleigh Burke
48 Spruance
312 Perry

Actually, I think that the opposing escort fleets are soo huge that they'll decide the battle...

Blue Force makes the opening move, if you wish. Let's try to keep our moves happening at the same time. Before aircraft make contact, we'll do 1 move= about 6 hours because it takes time for the ships to close. Once airstrikes are launched, one move=30 minutes. Agreed?

That should actually be 12 Nimitz', unless you want less for whatever reason. I'll post my opening move in the AM.

Admiral Ferdinand looked carefully at the board. His fleet was arranged in a circle fifty miles in diameter, battleships and carriers in the center. Satellite info had indicated that Red Force was to the west.

"Launch the Hawkeyes. I want a continuous scan until we make contact. Make sure that they have fighter cover. Send out some S-3 Vikings to search for the fleet as well."

Blue Force heading west at 20 knots. E-3s and S-3s deployed for air and sea surveillance.

It goes without saying that practically everything we say here is secret IC. It's hard, but we kind of have to pretend we don't know what's happening with the other side.

Two considerations about carrier air power:

1. Attrition. Usually, air forces loose 3% of their aircraft a year to noncombat accidents (according to James Dunnigan's How to Make War, a good book). It's probably slightly higher for navies because carrier landings are more dangerous. In NS nobody cares, but it dosen't matter because its effects would cancel out for both sides.

2. Waves. The reason that bombers in WWII attacked in waves was not because of some tactical reason (it's a bad idea to ever split your force), but because it just took soo long for everything to take off. Even on a carrier, with planes launching once per 30 seconds (once per catapult per minute using two catapults, the maximum possible on a 4-cat carrier as using all four might cause some aircraft to collide on takeoff), that still means 40 planes take 20 minutes to lift off. So they don't wait for the wing to form up, and attack piecemeal, limiting the swarm effect. You can have your planes circle and wait for the rest of the group to take off, but it uses up fuel and so shortens the strike range.

I've made a nice bitmap 10X10 grid. Each sqaure is 100 miles, so it represents the 1,000X1,000 mile battlefield we're on. They also explain my moves. Check them out.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a333/Athiesism/Move1.jpg



If you're wondering, there are three reasons for the Perrys going out ahead:

1. It's harder to get past two ASW screens than one. The screen near the carrier is thinner because of it, but it's soo dense anyway that it dosen't really make a difference.

2. Perrys are expendable, and they will not only be able to spot your valuable ships but can take the brunt of any attack, SSM, torpedo or airborne.

3. I guess you could say that by spreading my fleet out more it lessens the chance of ship-to-ship collision.

"Nothing new to report sir."

"Very well, keep going as planned."

OOC: Forgot to mention, but Seawolfs are staying with the fleet and providing fleet defense (36 vs couple hundred ships, not good odds). Only radars on belong to E-2s and S-3s.

I just noticed my error about posting 10 Nimitz. I meant twelve.

Let's skip ahead a bit...

The Perrys activate radar and sonar. They are detected a great distance away by the enemy fleet. At the same time, they slow to 5 knots to keep pace with the carriers behind them. The four carrier groups are each 20 miles apart from the nearest one and advance in line 200 miles behind the Perry screen. The Perry screen and the E-2 scouts comes into contact with the enemy group at just about the center of the map at range of about 300 miles from the enemy group. By this time, the Red Force submarines have gotten 50 miles in front of the Perrys and slowed to 5 knots to keep quiet and for better sonar detection. None have been lost to ASW patrols as Red fighters have scared them away. Red fighters escorting their AWACs spot an enemy air recon group and attack, calling in reinforcements. A battle takes place between the Red and Blue AEW patrols, with Blue outnumbered in the air generally getting the worst of it. The air battle goes on as we speak- time for Blue to make a decision.

Tell me if you want to back up in time, but there's no going back after you post your next move.

"Contact Admiral! Radars detected by E-2. They're 300 miles due west of the leading edge of our fleet. Perry's by the radar signature. Another E-2 and their escorts are under attack though."

"Very well, recall them. Keep our E-2s and S-3s above our outer ring from now on, I rather doubt that the enemy will try to rush them through all those SAMs. What's the enemy fleet's heading and speed?"

"East sir, towards us. Only 5 knots for some reason."

"That's odd. Swing north. We'll steam north for one hour, then north-west for another. Shift our escorts as well. Thin out the air defense on the eastern side of the fleet and put them on the west. Instruct the inner ASW ships, but not the Seawolfs, to use active sonar. Also, make sure that our carriers are ready to scramble their fighters in case of an enemy attack. I want every single F-21 armed for an air engagement."

Battleships and carriers are 50 miles from eastern edge of fleet, and one hundred and fifty from all others. Fleet is heading north at 20 knots. 3 F-21 fighters were lost in combat.

The entire Red Fleet accelarates to 20 knots and begins a pursuit of the Blue. The F-21s continue to pursue the enemy recon. As stated in my first move in the linked JPEG, 1/4th of them carry HARM anti-radar missiles. At Mach 4, they travel at almost twice the speed of Standard and will be fired at any SAM fire control radar that attempts to shoot. If too many SAM radars activate to destroy them all, the F-21s will withdraw after firing HARMs. So far, a total of 200 fighters, 1/4 of them carrying two HARMs, have been scrambled from all carriers, with a further 300 or so still armed with air-to-air armament and preparing to launch when the order is given.

OOC: HARM is under Mach 2 and has less range than SM-2ER (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/agm-88-specs.htm)

Blue Force speed slowed to 15 knots. 1/8 of fighters are on BARCAP. Fighters are sitting on catapults. All fighters are equipped for solely air-to-air.

You're right, I screwed up. In real life I would have known better, but if you want I'll let you kill ten of my fighters.

This has a potential to deadlock, but I won't attack yet. I continue to pursue your fleet. According to the description of the battle area, it's a closed-in lake, which means you can't withdraw forever and will eventually be pinned into a corner. But I don't think we should care about that- let's just assume we're on an infinite expanse of ocean. The 200 fighters that were scrambled RTB, and normal air schedule resumes.

edit: By the way, my entire fleet slows to 15 knots also and continues to follow yours.

OOC: Sorry if it takes me awhile to respond, my email hasn't been working past couple days.

Blue Force swings towards Red Force and accelerates to 25 knots. Battleships move to within 50 miles of front, but all sides except front (which would be west iirc) thin to allow heavy coverage of front sector

The carrier group behind the escort screen accelerates to 20 knots, while the Perrys retreat at 25 knots until they are 100 miles from the carriers. After that, both the carrier and Perry group run from the Blue force at a speed of 25 knots.

300 miles away from their group, at the edge of the Perry screen, Blue detects an incoming airstrike. 25 F-21s armed with 4 SLAM-ER (range 174 miles) SSM and 2 Sidewinder head toward the enemy unescorted except for whatever protection the CAP patrols may offer. They are now at 300 miles from Blue's fleet. What is Blue's decision?