NationStates Jolt Archive

This is the OOC thread for the Great War of 1912 in Western Europe, part of the Age of Imperialism Campaign (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433496); you have to be part of that campaign to play in this one. The RP thread is here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=453096).

There are open positions – including some major ones. Here’s a list of participants thus far:The Third Republic of France (Bogmihia [proxy])
The First Republic of Portugal (open)
The Kingdom of Spain (Nebarri_Prime)
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (Latiatis)
The Kingdom of the Netherlands (Relative Liberty [proxy & as a minor ally of Germany])
The Kingdom of Belgium (open)
The Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Relative Liberty [as a minor ally of Germany])
The Grand German Empire (Relative Liberty)
The Helvetican Confederation a/k/a Switzerland (open)
The Kingdom of Italy (Voxio)
The Austro-Hungarian Empire a/k/a "the Dual Monarchy" (Narodna Odbrana)
The Russian Empire (Boghimia [proxy]; was Karaska)
The United States of America (Narodna Odbrana [proxy])
The Third Empire of Mexico (Narodna Odbrana [proxy])
The Kingdom of Morocco (Boghimia [proxy & as a minor ally of France])
The Kingdom of Sweden (Lachenberg)
The Kingdom of Denmark (open)
The Kingdom of Norway (open)
The Kingdom of Serbia (open; was Slavic Byzantium)
The Kingdom of Montenegro (open; was Slavic Byzantium as minor ally of Serbia)
The Kingdom of Greece (New Dracora)
The Kingdom of Bulgaria (Narodna Odbrana [proxy & and as a minor ally of the Dual Monarchy]
The Kingdom of Roumania (Boghimia)
The Ottoman Empire a/k/a “the Sublime Porte” (The Andromedan)
Nations in red do not have players.

]Not all of the nations listed above are likely to participate; they are listed as possible participants, mostly in the event that the conflict spreads.

The RP begins in 1912, shortly after war has broken out in Europe. Thus far, the United States and France are at war with Mexico; France is also at war with Italy. Much of the rest of Europe (Germany, the Dual Monarchy, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Sweden, Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg) are members of the Grand Alliance (an outgrowth of the old Triple Alliance); Italy and Spain are also members, but as Italy declared war on France (which is also provisionally a member of the Alliance, but not one recognised as such by all members), the other members of the Grand Alliance are not bound to assist Italy (yet). Great Britain is opposed to France and has warned the United States against intervention; it remains to be seen if Britain will go to war with either France or America. Russia is allied to Germany and France, but it also has treaty obligations in Asia that may bring it into this war (in one way or another) due to the concurrent Second Sino-Japanese War.

This war has other theatres that will be handled in separate threads. These other threads are:

The Second Sino-Japanese War – RP Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446782)
The Second Sino-Japanese War – OOC Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446784)
The Lion of Judah – RP Thread (war between Ethiopia and Italy in East Africa)
The Lion of Judah – OOC Thread
The Sleeping Giant – RP Thread (the Western Hemispheric theatre of this war)
The Sleeping Giant – OOC Thread

In addition, there are other wars going on:

Lawrence of Moravia – RP Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9769465) (the war between the Porte and the House of Sa’ud)
Lawrence of Moravia – OOC Thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448673)

The following campaigns are over expect (perhaps) for diplomatic niceties:

The Balkan Wars – RP Thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434313)
The Balkan Wars – OOC Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434316)

Be warned that some nations are in significantly different condition than was actually the case in 1912 (or 1914); new players should check before assuming anything about another country (especially with regards to its diplomatic stance or political leanings); some countries have lost or gained territory such as to leave them different from their RL counterparts.

Narodna Odbrana, I was thinking about helping Great Britain in their war against France. He told me that if I march my army to Cairo, we could togeher make a 2-pronged attack on the French Algerian terriotory. I'm taking this into strong consideration. I wanted to check with you, would you perhaps help us in this conquest?

Is Great Britain at war with France? I saw no declaration of war.

Folks, it may be O.K. for nations to just haul off and attack one another in 2005, but this is 1912, and in 1912 attacking or invading another country is a war crime. Spain just did this; while I can (barely) see that happening, it will certainly set the country into an uproar and assist the United States in its decision to make war upon Spain as well as Mexico (not to mention its inevitable demand that the Spanish monarchy be abolished and a democracy established in its place). But for Britain to even attempt this would absolutely bring about the fall of its government.

Thus far, only the vile subhuman Japanese have dared so rape international law (oops, slipped back into character there...), so I would strongly recommend that the more civilised European nations issue a declaration of their intentions before sending troops into battle against another nation.

IOW, get your DOW's on...

Japanese always went ahead of their time ;)

BTW, you could also send an outrageous ultimatum which a nation can only refuse. I didn't want to use the second option because it gave China a clear warning.

BTW, you could also send an outrageous ultimatum which a nation can only refuse.
This kind of reminds me of Austria-Hungary and Serbia in real life. ;)

This kind of reminds me of Austria-Hungary and Serbia in real life. ;)

That's what I intended...

Even Austria-Hungary are unhuman savages (oops, falling into IC personality) *ahum* even Austria-Hungary isn't holier than thou :D

Is Great Britain at war with France? I saw no declaration of war.

Folks, it may be O.K. for nations to just haul off and attack one another in 2005, but this is 1912, and in 1912 attacking or invading another country is a war crime. Spain just did this; while I can (barely) see that happening, it will certainly set the country into an uproar and assist the United States in its decision to make war upon Spain as well as Mexico (not to mention its inevitable demand that the Spanish monarchy be abolished and a democracy established in its place). But for Britain to even attempt this would absolutely bring about the fall of its government.

Thus far, only the vile subhuman Japanese have dared so rape international law (oops, slipped back into character there...), so I would strongly recommend that the more civilised European nations issue a declaration of their intentions before sending troops into battle against another nation.

IOW, get your DOW's on...
May I remind you that a declaration of war is today viewed as a crime against international peace, and a crime against humanity if you're unlucky. That's why US military operations since 1945 have been labelled '''police operations.''

What was once vice is now habit? ;)

I won't dispute your statement (although I do question it). However, as late as 1945 a DOW was considered necessary before initiating hostilities (per the Second Hague Convention [of 1907, I believe]).

Spain has told me in TG that his claim to the throne of France is a de jure declaration of war. Upon reflection, I must agree: if Alfonso XIII claims to be the King of France, then sending troops into France can not be an act of war (in the sense meant by the Hague Convention) because he is in essence simply enforcing his own legitimate rule against an illegitimate government.

Which leads us to the "royal claims" loophole: if you can (reasonably) claim that the government in power within the borders of $Nation is not its actual government and that you are acting in furtherance of the rights of the real government, then you are not engaged in aggression or even (legally speaking) a war; you are simply acting in support of the legitimate government to reestablish its position. But both conditions must be true: you must be operating against a government that you can reasonably assert to be illegitimate, and in favour of one that you can reasonable uphold as the rightful one.

On that basis, Nebarri_Prime, can you (for the benefit of the timeline) which I will soon post - honest! - give me a (relative) date when Alfonso XIII issued his claim to the throne of France (which I believe to be an improper claim, but we won't go there...).

On aerial bombing, very few nations had played with the concept. America and Italy had experimented with in (and in RL, Italy had actually done it a year earlier). I might allow France or Spain to indulge, but I think that for now I'm going to limit it to hand grenades and bomblets, and ideally the Italians and Americans should be allowed the privilege of first use.

France had toyed with photoreconaissance, as had America. Italy has RP experience in leafletting, although it has actually been done without concealment (by Italian flyers in Albania), so it would do little harm if we allowed others to follow suit.

Mostly, aircraft should be used for spotting and scouting, although I would imagine that will change rather quickly.

WE, the leafletting (if you want to call it that) of Tsingtao was cute (I've actually seen that samurai poster), but where did Japan get a flying boat?

The carriers the Japanes used up to that date weren't the kind of carriers we use nowadays. They were carrier sin the simplest meaning: they carrier the planes, nothing else. The planes were lifted of the ship on the water (don't know the exact term) and then launched. The site I got the info told me there were two Farman seaplanes, so...

As to the picture...:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/ortona/gfx/italy_mair_1.jpg

Just ignorethe fascist Italy and Nazi Germany flag and hey presto...

I always thought this was a pretty good propaganda poster, in terms of proaganda so I decided to use the image.

The carriers the Japanes used up to that date weren't the kind of carriers we use nowadays. They were carrier sin the simplest meaning: they carrier the planes, nothing else. The planes were lifted of the ship on the water (don't know the exact term) and then launched. The site I got the info told me there were two Farman seaplanes, so...Yeah, but when?

Per the RAF Museum's web site:November 14th, 1910 - Exhibition pilot Eugène Ely makes the first take-off from a ship, using a temporary flight deck on the cruiser USS Birmingham. The ship was at anchor in Chesapeake Bay. The pilot flew his Curtiss Hudson Flier biplane 2½ miles to Willoughby Spit near Norfolk in Virginia to land.

January 18th, 1911 - Eugène Ely, an exhibition pilot, makes the first landing on a ship. He touched down on a 120 feet long platform which had been erected on the stern of the cruiser USS Pennsylvania . The ship was moored in San Francisco Bay. The Curtiss biplane was fitted with three pairs of spring loaded hooks on the undercarriage and cables were stretched across the temporary flight deck at intervals of 3 feet. The aircraft came to a halt after 30 feet.

January 26th, 1911 - Glenn Curtiss makes the first premeditated aeroplane landing on water, water taxiing and water take-off from USS Pennyslvania in San Diego Bay.

July 1st, 1911 - The first United States Navy (USN) aeroplane, a Curtiss A1 Triad hydro-aeroplane, is flown.

August 3rd, 1911 - A Voisin biplane lands on the River Seine using the aircraft's amphibious landing gear.

October 25th, 1911 - Captain Tokugawa makes the first flight of the Japanese Kai-1 biplane, in Japan.

January 10th, 1912 - Glenn Curtiss flies the first proper flying-boat, a converted Curtiss A2.

March, 1912 - The first seaplane competition is held at Monaco.

April 6th, 1912 - Belgian M.V. de Jonckheere demonstrates that aeroplanes can follow ships at night as he flies his monoplane in experiments at League Island in California.

June 26th, 1912 - The Japanese government forms a Kaigun Kokujutsu Kenkyu Kai (Naval Committee for Aeronautical Research).

July 31st, 1912 - Lieutenant T.G. Ellyson pilots the first aeroplane to be catapult-launched from a wall platform at Annapolis, USA.

September 12th, 1912 - The first French naval aeroplane, a Maurice Farman fitted with pontoons, is purchased.

November 12th, 1912 - A Curtiss A-1 Triad hydroplane, piloted by Lieutenant T. Gordon Ellyson, is the first aeroplane to be catapult-launched from an anchored ship. The aircraft takes-off using a compressed air catapult on a barge anchored in the Anacostia river, USA.

November 27th, 1912 - The United States Army Signal Corps receives its first flying boat, a Curtiss F two-seat biplane.

December 5th, 1912 - In an effort to encourage the development of seaplanes, Frenchman Jacques Schneider announces that he will sponsor an international competition.

January 6th, 1913 - The United States Navy (USN) uses aircraft on manoeuvres for the first time off Cuba.

April 3rd, 1913 - The second competition for seaplanes is held in Monaco.

April 16th, 1913 - The first Schneider Trophy (Jacques Schneider Air Racing Trophy for Hydro-Aeroplanes) race is held at the Monaco seaplane meeting. Maurice Prevost wins the contest over twenty-eight 10 kilometre circuits in a Deperdussin, flying at 73kph (45mph).

August 10th, 1913 - An automatic stabiliser is demonstrated by Lawrence Sperry and Lieutenant Berringer in a Curtiss F flying boat. It is based on the ship's gyroscope which Sperry's father, Elmer Sperry, invented.

October, 1913 - A recommendation is made by the United States Navy (USN) Secretary's Aeronautic Board that an aeronautics centre should be established, assigning a ship for sea aviation training and assigning one aeroplane for every major combat ship.

January 1st, 1914 - The St. Petersburg Tampa Airboat Line of St Petersburg in Florida begins the first scheduled service by an airline. The 20 mile route from St Petersburg to Tampa across Tampa Bay is flown by Anthony Jannus in a Benoist flying boat and the mayor of St Petersburg, A.C. Pheil, buys the first airline ticket at auction for $400. The regular fare is $5.

February, 1914 - The first aerial torpedo is released from a Farman biplane by General A. Guidoni of the Italian Army.

April, 1914 - The battleship USS Mississippi and the cruiser USS Birmingham become the first aircraft carriers to be used in warfare. They operate off Vera Cruz with five United States Navy (USN) seaplanes making reconnaissance flights over Mexican lines. The seaplanes are lowered over the side and take-off and land on the water.I guess it's theoretically possible that Japan could have a flying boat in August or September of 1912, but I'm wondering what the United States - which historically was the most aggressive nation in the world with respect to the early deployment of aviation assets at sea, could have done to maintain its lead. By my reckoning, the U.S. is now over a year and a half behind Japan in this crucial effort. Consequently, I think that Roosevelt will have to ask Congress to fund six flattop aircraft carriers, to be completed by early 1914...

Or maybe ten, because if Japan is almost over a year and a half ahead of the U.S., then the Japanese will probably have four such vessels before the first American flattop gets launched!

(I wonder how many people will note the sarcasm in that post. It is, however, my standard response to players who assert spectacular military capabilities: if they can have such capabilities, then that certainly justifies an effort on my part to compensate.)

What was once vice is now habit? ;)

I won't dispute your statement (although I do question it). However, as late as 1945 a DOW was considered necessary before initiating hostilities (per the Second Hague Convention [of 1907, I believe]).

Spain has told me in TG that his claim to the throne of France is a de jure declaration of war. Upon reflection, I must agree: if Alfonso XIII claims to be the King of France, then sending troops into France can not be an act of war (in the sense meant by the Hague Convention) because he is in essence simply enforcing his own legitimate rule against an illegitimate government.

Which leads us to the "royal claims" loophole: if you can (reasonably) claim that the government in power within the borders of $Nation is not its actual government and that you are acting in furtherance of the rights of the real government, then you are not engaged in aggression or even (legally speaking) a war; you are simply acting in support of the legitimate government to reestablish its position. But both conditions must be true: you must be operating against a government that you can reasonably assert to be illegitimate, and in favour of one that you can reasonable uphold as the rightful one.

On that basis, Nebarri_Prime, can you (for the benefit of the timeline) which I will soon post - honest! - give me a (relative) date when Alfonso XIII issued his claim to the throne of France (which I believe to be an improper claim, but we won't go there...).

after morocco was claimed by Spain and before mexico invaded based on when i rped it.

Is Great Britain at war with France? I saw no declaration of war.


Oh, nevermind then, he telegramed me in nationstates about it, it was probably jsut an idea.

Excellent, I'm so much ahead of the real Ottoman empire technologically and industrially.;) ;) ;) ;) ;)