NationStates Jolt Archive

Here is the IC thread for the siege... stat posting!

With the entire Spanish Grand Fleet chasing pirates in the Caribbean, Sweden siezed their window of opportunity and have landed a 15,000 strong task force just a days march from Cadiz.

The situation so far is that the Swedish have Cadiz surrounded and, unbeknownst to the defending forces, are preparing an escalade in a matter of hours. A polite yet firm ultimatum has been delivered to the Spanish garrison and the Swedish General Malm is awaiting their response before attacking. If there is no response within ten hours, he will order the attack to go in.

(In real terms, as soon as the Spanish player replies, we will consider the ten hours over).

The Swedish plan is to take anything of value from Cadiz over a 3 day period of occupation and then scuttle back to Sweden before either the Spanish Grand Fleet is informed or the Spanish armies in Badajoz can mobilise. If they do mobilise, the Swedes will torch the city and run. It is likely to be weeks before the first ships of the Spanish Grand Fleet can return but maybe only a week until the first Spanish ground troops arrive. The Swedes prepare an escalade and wait for a reply from the Spanish commander.

ooc: this is where you need to be posting now Aust.

Also, I will post more on my men's recieval of the rejection of their ultimatum before the end of the day (bearing in mind i live in the UK).

OOC: Can any1 join this?

ooc: not this battle, but you can join the game, here is the link, check out wich countries are still opened: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=449185

Following the refusal of Sweden's generous ultimatum to the defenders of Cadiz, preparations are made for an assault that very night.

As night falls, 3 frigates of the main fleet move into range of the cannons under the cover of darkness and prepare to open fire, silent and invisible in the dark, they will only make their presence known when the signal flare is fired from the shore.

On the ground, assault parties move quitely across the ground. There are six main assault squads. Two cross the river and start the attack first. The men of those two parties total 900 men and suddenly allow their skirmishers to open fire and the attackers launch their 11 ladders against the wall facing the river and start streaking up the ladders. A firebase of half of the men is made to keep up a steady fire on the defenders and the men move as fast as possible up the ladders, hoping to take the defenders by surprise. As this attack goes in, a flare is fired and the frigates, seeing their signal, open fire on the harbour and the walls. They try not to use a steady course, attempting to make their movements less obvious to the defenders of Cadiz. Meanwhile, a force of 250 marines move in under the cover of the bombardment by longboat with muffled and blackened oars and unloaded muskets so as not to cause a shot to go off by accident. These marines will attempt to rush the weaker harbour defences with bayonets and cause more confusion inside the city's walls. As soon as are safely ensconced in the city they will charge their muskets and attempt to cause as much confusion as possible.

When the confusion is judged to be at its maximum, the other five assault parties are ordered forwards against the most easily accessible wall. A total of 23 ladders are leaned against the wall, with some 5,000 men being committed to this attack. All of the men in the assault parties travel light, carrying 70 rounds of ammunition and no packs. In addition to this, some double charged 6 pounder guns (carried on battalion level and not classed as field guns) are rammed up against the gates on this side of the wall and ordered to blast the gates open.

The common maxim of attackers needing a 3 to 1 numerical advantage to take a decent stronghold has been well exceeded by the Swedes who have a 12 to 1 advantage and also have the advantages of both surprise and fighting ill trained troops who have to be diverted to various parts of the wall.

ooc: i will wait for Aust and his reaction and then post the results.

The Spanish have been rpepared however, at the beginning of the night huge bundles of straw and hay where chucked over the walls in an effort to sea the attackers, they worked perfectly. The attackers boats (I presume that to cross a river you need boats) sounded loud in the water and within minuates the senterys had alert the main defence force who rushed to the walls. The Cannon on the wall opens fire, 30 guns firing canister adn grapeshot down on the attackers who are struggling out of there boats.

Ladders are flung up, but they are spotted by the defenders by the light of flaming torches that illiuminate the walls and the patches of ground below. Smiling the defenders set fire to the wood, watching as the fire shreaks down the ladders towards those climbing up. Pots of ready prepared boiling oil are hurled down on the 900 attackers huddled in 3 or 4 mieters of river bank.

Menwhile a huge bonfire has been lit in the port, illuminating the sea for several hundred yards-and the marines that are approching in there boats. The sailors manning the cannon openfire, first with heated roundshot that will set the boats aflame if they even touch them, and then, as the boats draw closer, with heated grape and canister. The attackers, crowdered into a small space, will be butchered by the hot metal and the hundreds of musket balls that fly at them.

On the south wall the same has happned, the 5,000 attackers surge forwards, over the burned feilds that have to cover at all and are lit by hay bails thrown down. The guns fire, canister and grape hurling themselves at the attackers, a single shot throwing 30 to 40 of the deadly balls at the enermy. The boiling oil is brought up and thrown down upon the enermy that reached the walls, while the 23 ladders, are set alight.

The Spanish have been rpepared however, at the beginning of the night huge bundles of straw and hay where chucked over the walls in an effort to sea the attackers, they worked perfectly. The attackers boats (I presume that to cross a river you need boats) sounded loud in the water and within minuates the senterys had alert the main defence force who rushed to the walls. The Cannon on the wall opens fire, 30 guns firing canister adn grapeshot down on the attackers who are struggling out of there boats.

Ladders are flung up, but they are spotted by the defenders by the light of flaming torches that illiuminate the walls and the patches of ground below. Smiling the defenders set fire to the wood, watching as the fire shreaks down the ladders towards those climbing up. Pots of ready prepared boiling oil are hurled down on the 900 attackers huddled in 3 or 4 mieters of river bank.

Menwhile a huge bonfire has been lit in the port, illuminating the sea for several hundred yards-and the marines that are approching in there boats. The sailors manning the cannon openfire, first with heated roundshot that will set the boats aflame if they even touch them, and then, as the boats draw closer, with heated grape and canister. The attackers, crowdered into a small space, will be butchered by the hot metal and the hundreds of musket balls that fly at them.

On the south wall the same has happned, the 5,000 attackers surge forwards, over the burned feilds that have to cover at all and are lit by hay bails thrown down. The guns fire, canister and grape hurling themselves at the attackers, a single shot throwing 30 to 40 of the deadly balls at the enermy. The boiling oil is brought up and thrown down upon the enermy that reached the walls, while the 23 ladders, are set alight.



WTF. You can't just post that my attack completely failed and you somehow second guessed everything. You completely ignored my frigates off the shore who would have been firing on your cannon batteries and you flatly do not have enough men to guard all of your walls with sufficient strength to refute every assault.

For starters, you cannot set fire to a ladder at its top and expect fire to go down, fire burns upwards so that is impossible. Also, while you are doing all this you are being fired at by upwards of a battalion waiting below.

Look, you cannot expect to destroy an attack of about 9,000 men with 1,000 and completely destroy it.

Saying as you ignored the frigates they will have been able to choose their spot on the walls and knock out gun after gun. Even then, you simply wouldn't have enough firepower to completely destroy the attack. You have to spread your men to two walls (and thats being generous because you would leave a token guard on the other walls anyway) and the harbour. So, to destroy a 250 man attack on the harbour you would probably need about 100 men with muskets or about 14 cannon, which you then cannot deploy on the walls. To destroy a 5,000 strong escalade on the South wall, with 23 ladders, you would need to deploy upwards of 800 men there and the other attack would sap another 400 at least. AND this is considering you were prepared and knew all of this was going to happen. And don't say its 'obvious' because the whole point of an escalade is surprise, you garrisson would have expected a long bombardment from the sea first.


You can post your reaction i.e. where you will send your men once the attackers dispositions have become clear, but then it is up to Wolfenbach to decide whether they are successful. And in my opinion it is practically impossible for a rag-tag defence of 1,000, with only half of those trained, to repulse a 9,000 strong escalade at the dead of night.

The most ridiculous thing out of this whole lot is your claim that you set fire to ladders. How precisely can you burn a ladder from its top? You don't even have enough men to fire at the troops on the ladders nevermind pour burning pitch down each and every one.

And the hay bales, they were only thrown down once it was clear where the attackers were, and you probably wouldn't know that until they were within about 400 yards and that is with good piquet troops.

And for the river crossing, I accept it would be easier to repulse that one but I will leave it to Wolfenbach to resolve. Ultimately, you can post your reaction but not the results of your actions. If I had done what you did I could have just posted

'my men climbed the walls, met little resistance and swept into the city.'

Surely you see my point? You can post where you sent each of your men after the attack is spotted, but it is unlikely you would also be able to manhandle all of this boiling oil and the cannons into position in time to completely destroy every attack. Anyway, casualties by such weapons, although relatively heavy on a small sized force, would be ignored by the larger attacking parties that I am using.

Once you have posted a reaction, rather than a result, Wolfenbach can moderate the results.

WTF. You can't just post that my attack completely failed and you somehow second guessed everything. You completely ignored my frigates off the shore who would have been firing on your cannon batteries and you flatly do not have enough men to guard all of your walls with sufficient strength to refute every assault.
I havn't said it's failed, I said posted my responce to your attack. I also posted senturys, you ehard of them, one or two men on a wall who see whats happening and call for help.

I never said I stopped the assult, I just posted my responce. As for the Frigets, you ahvn't yet posted that the falres gone up, you posted a plan. they havn't opened fire yet.


For starters, you cannot set fire to a ladder at its top and expect fire to go down, fire burns upwards so that is impossible. Also, while you are doing all this you are being fired at by upwards of a battalion waiting below.

I never said tht it would work, and musket balls went quite slowly and where inaccurate, musket fire you be very unlikley to hit at this range.

Look, you cannot expect to destroy an attack of about 9,000 men with 1,000 and completely destroy it.
Where did I say i destoryed it?

Saying as you ignored the frigates they will have been able to choose their spot on the walls and knock out gun after gun. Even then, you simply wouldn't have enough firepower to completely destroy the attack. You have to spread your men to two walls (and thats being generous because you would leave a token guard on the other walls anyway) and the harbour. So, to destroy a 250 man attack on the harbour you would probably need about 100 men with muskets or about 14 cannon, which you then cannot deploy on the walls. To destroy a 5,000 strong escalade on the South wall, with 23 ladders, you would need to deploy upwards of 800 men there and the other attack would sap another 400 at least. AND this is considering you were prepared and knew all of this was going to happen. And don't say its 'obvious' because the whole point of an escalade is surprise, you garrisson would have expected a long bombardment from the sea first.

A) Ships guns are very inaccurate, have you any idea how many days it takes a battery of Seige guns to knock out a small bit of wall, it takes days and days. It's dark so many of your shots will fall short and the barrels arn't warm. Ships guns are designed to be sued at close range against other ships.

B) A guard on the other walls would be 10 or 11 men, not many at all.

C) who said anything about having men with muskets there I have already posted the amount of cannon i have on the harbour. All I've said is that i've lit a bonfire, seen your men and opened fire with my cannon

D) I didn't say it had worked, I posted that my men, no numbers yet, have tried to set fire to the ladders and poured boilding oil over the parpets and down onto the enermy at the river offesive. i'm presuming that squeezing that many men onto a small river bank would make it effective. Hell i havn't used muskets yet.

On the otehr wall I've only opened fire with cannon again, I've only used canister and said that when your men reach the wall I'll use boilding oil.


You can post your reaction i.e. where you will send your men once the attackers dispositions have become clear, but then it is up to Wolfenbach to decide whether they are successful. And in my opinion it is practically impossible for a rag-tag defence of 1,000, with only half of those trained, to repulse a 9,000 strong escalade at the dead of night.
You think that 9,000 men don't make a noise, and that a load of longboats don't make a noise, or other boats? Or that i can't see you despite the fact your running over a feild with no cover which is lit up by flares/burning hay bails. or that boats are invisable to the said flares and hay bails, and that the light from a bonfire dosn't travell a long way? I've seen you and I've opened fire.

The most ridiculous thing out of this whole lot is your claim that you set fire to ladders. How precisely can you burn a ladder from its top? You don't even have enough men to fire at the troops on the ladders nevermind pour burning pitch down each and every one.
A) Paniked troops would no that.

B) It takes, say 3 man to carry a vat of boiling oil, 4 to tip it over. How many people are there in Cadiz that would help? Boiling oil/pitch andything I else I chuck down can be deadly. And I ahve the population of a city on my side. Say i ahve 2 men a ladder, why can't they PUSH THE LADDER AWAY. Or if I have 4 men a ladder, pour burning oil down on it? Sure as hell that'd set it on fire.
[/quote]
And the hay bales, they were only thrown down once it was clear where the attackers were, and you probably wouldn't know that until they were within about 400 yards and that is with good piquet troops.[/quote]
As I say, 20 men wouldn't be detected, 9,000 make a hell of a lot of naise. And over dead ground/water, light carrys a long way.


And for the river crossing, I accept it would be easier to repulse that one but I will leave it to Wolfenbach to resolve. Ultimately, you can post your reaction but not the results of your actions. If I had done what you did I could have just posted
I havn't posted the results of my actions
[/quote]
'my men climbed the walls, met little resistance and swept into the city.'

Surely you see my point? You can post where you sent each of your men after the attack is spotted, but it is unlikely you would also be able to manhandle all of this boiling oil and the cannons into position in time to completely destroy every attack. Anyway, casualties by such weapons, although relatively heavy on a small sized force, would be ignored by the larger attacking parties that I am using. [/quote]
Once more, I didn't say that they where destoryed, nore did i say how many cannon I had. However the casultys would panic people, be horrable enough to scare, and burning oil destorys ladders.

The Swedish forces crossing the river are met by Spanish cannons, the suprise failed. They move slowly trough the water under heavy fire, and when they dissembark, burning oil is pured on them. they are forced to retreat in the river, many boats are lost, and many men try to save their lives by swimming trough. they drop their muskets and jump ithe water. Many drown, but mostly, they escape to safety.

The marines meet almost no resistance killing a few guard without any problems, but as they get into the city, they are meet by some defenders. they are forced to retreat, but they manage to keep a foothold in the port, a chance for Swedish forces...

Meanwhile, three Swedish frigates are fireing at the city, doing much damage, and somehow satting the city core to fire, wich is spreading quickly...

At the time, the main attack start. 5000 Swedish soliders lounch forward. The Spanish defenders open fire with all sources, but the attackers return the favour. They reach the walls, and set the ladders. Spanish troops on the walls trie to set them on fire, but the ladders seem to refuse to burn. Seing a chance, attackers start climbing the walls. Many die, but when they reach the top, a bitter strougle for the walls start. At the point, it showed that the Swdish are going to be thrown back, but after a few minutes, the attackes prevail, and Spanish soliders are forced to retreat from the wall.

ooc: The situation is as next:

Swedish marines are holding the port, and the main force conquerd the walls, but the Spanish still have some troops, and retreated in good oredr, only to take shelter in houses and fight off the attackers.


Casualties:

Spanish:

-340 men on the walls.
-120 men facing the marines.
-60 men from bombardment.
-Some 1000 civilians.

Remaining: 500 men.

Swedish:

-150 marines in the port.
-700 men in the disasterus attack trough the river.
-1100 men in the main attack force.

You said why can't you push a ladder away, well because its being held against the wall by men down below. Granted, a few would be pushed away but the majority would stay up.

So you are saying that you have bonfires in the dead ground? How is that possible, the town has been encircled since daybreak. The torches you do have will be on the walls and that will not illuminate very far.

'As this attack goes in, a flare is fired and the frigates, seeing their signal, open fire on the harbour and the walls' I wrote this in my first post so yes, the frigates have opened fire and while they are obviously not too accurate, they are also firing at illuminated targets what with all the torches on the wall.

'while the 23 ladders, are set alight.' I think this is you saying my attack has failed, you can't climb a flaming ladder. Though how flame travels downwards mystifies me.

About your sentries, yes they would hear my men, but not until they are within around 300 metres of the wall. There are NO bonfires in the dead ground as we have had the dead ground occupied for ten hours or so since you evacuated your men back to the fort so we will have extinguished any flames apart from the ones directly on your wall.

I could go on and on like this as you have obviously just read my post and then just said you have made all these precautions against every kind of attack I have made beforehand. We should just let Wolfenbach decide what happens with the attack now that I have given my plans for attack and you have posted what you will try to do to stop it with only 1,000 men. Better still, in future we should let the moderator know what plans we have made by telegram and then he lets us know of the outcome in the thread as I find it hard to believe that your commander has second guessed every move my men have made. I mean, you havn't been taken surprise at all yet, despite the fact you are unprepared for battle in general, as these men will have little or no combat experience, you are unprepared for an escalade, you will be expecting a bombardment, you are unprepared for a night attack as you will expect an escalade at dawn following a bombardment, you are unprepared for a seaborne attack by longboat and unprepared for escalade on two stretches of wall. I just find it ridiculous to believe that all of our initiatives have been second guessed perfectly by the ill trained Cadiz garrisson.



I'm going to leave it to Wolfenbach to resolve the battle now I have posted my plans and you have posted what you are trying to do. Though I do think it should be taken into consideration that nearly all of these methods of attack are unexpected and the small garrisson will be unable to react to each and every threat happening simaltaneously.

Ignore my last post as Wolfenbach seems to have resolved everything perfectly, good job. I'll post my troops next moves now.

General Malm, seeing one attack completely failing, was rather dissapointed, this mood was soon lifted by news that his men held the main stretch of wall. He immediately sent orders forward through several messengers that the men inside the city were to open the main gates and a column of 1,500 infantry was sent to the main gates to prepare for the opening. Also, a further 700 men were sent to scale the ladders on the safe stretch of wall. The marines that had landed inside the port have no idea what is going on elsewhere and so they stand their ground and keep loading and firing, also they send parties of 4 and 5 men to seek news from any other Swedish forces in the city. The frigates, their job done, retreat out of range of return fire from the guns of Cadiz.

The men that have taken the main wall set about trying to eliminate the gun positions still on the wall but the main body of men head to the main gate to open it for the new infantry column.

Thanks for moderating here by the way Wolfenbach, this is a really even handed battle so far, thanks.

ooc: I'll post result of your action now, i don't need to wait for Aust and his post for this actions, but if you will advance into the city expect havy casualties, as the defenders will probably defend each house.

Ic:

The gate opens and Swedish troops pour into the city, completly taking the wall and the first few houses, the Spanish troops desapear into the city they konw very well.

The frigates stop their fire and turn to sail away. But by the time, the Spanish guns still left in the harbour are set up and open fire. One granade hits one of the frigates, tripping over the main sail, killing some 15 sailors, and cripeling the ship.

The troops will secure the first few houses and hold until daybreak. With so many men in ensconced in the city the Spanish won't be able to throw us back out. When the marines finally make contact with the rest of the troops they, in conjunction with a few companies of regular infantry, are ordered to clear the seaward facing batteries. Once these batteries are taken they are to fire three flares in quick succession. This will signal the three frigates to return and land the rest of the marines in the harbour. Also, a few sloops will come onshore to pick up some 500 regular infantry from the shore party and land them in the harbour as well.

At daybreak, a last ultimatum will be given to the defenders, surrender or be killed to a man. There will be a 20 minute deadline and then the advance will continue from both the harbour and from the houses already held by the Swedes.

OOC:Anyone got a map of Cadiz, I'm presuming that it has a castle here if it dosn't then they retreat to some other defensable location.

IC: Seeing the city walls fall Govanor Rodregiz gave the order for his remaining troops to withdraw to the citys last bastion of defences, the castle. here he would hope to hold out for as long as he could, until renforcments arrived.

He sent out messangers, and soon a raggard straggle of survivors arrived at the gates, 500 or so men, some of whom had brought there wives and famillys along. The govanor let them stay, no doubt they where safer in here than out there. The Govanor knew what sort of excess soildiers went to when they took a city, and heathen soildiers where the worst.

From his reports he estimated that his men had done well, they had harmed the enermy, killing many and had managed to prevent most of the guns from falling into enermy hands by spiking them. Still he had lost the main part of the city.

He had supply for days now, with a reduced force hidden inside he could last for weeks, he had arms and still had control of the city armoury. A ultimatium came from the Swedes, surrender or be destroyed, the govanor sent back a message-if only he could play for time.

He sent back a message offering to nagotiate.

Spanish survivors:
300 trained soildiers,
100 Gentlemen/Citizen malitia
10 sailors
90 Tranees
200 civillians (Women/Children)

Anyone got a map of Cadiz, I'm presuming that it has a castle here if it dosn't then they retreat to some other defensable location.

Here is a map of Cadiz:

Cadiz Map (http://www.hotelsspainonline.com/cities/mapacadiz.jpg)

And from the look of it, Cadiz has some costal fortifacations, but no keep or castle within the city.

Well we can just say the survivors move back to a large defensible building, the city hall maybe?

IC:

With the retreat of the enemy to the town hall, Malm himself rode into the city. He ordered in the fleet from sea, it would repair at Cadiz, ressupply and rearm before moving off. Malm knew it would only be a matter of time before his soldiers went wild throughout the city. He dispatched a reserve of 8 companies to guard various points throughout the city that had been identified as supply stores. The rest of his men he knew he could not control, though he did detail two further battalions of around 600 men each to surround the town hall.

Malm sympathised with the defenders, given a hopeless task, they had aquitted themselves nobly.

As the Spanish messenger approached, Malm already knew what to say. He met the man personally and, through a translator, offered the Spaniards the following terms:

'Noble defenders. You have fought most bravely and we wish no further bloodshed. If you lay down your arms now, you may leave with your colours and personal weapons. It is not a surrender, it is an armistice. Leave now and there will be no more killing.'

With the message delivered, Malm ordered the disembarkation of his pioneer troop of 800 labourers to begin loading supplies and treasure from the Americas (ooc: Cadiz was a notable trading post in Spain, importing a lot of goods from La Habana, Cuba). He also moved the marines back aboard their ships, along with another 150 of the men he still had under control.

The sailors of the ships would be confined to their vessels but they would be sent fruit and foodstuffs to tide them over. A frigate was dispatched immediately back to Stockholm with news of the victory with orders to stop first at the Netherlands to inform the neccesary embassies there.

Many of the wounded were sent back on this frigate also. As soon as Malm could regain full control of his troops he would embark them and they would leave Cadiz as soon as possible for the Spanish could not be far away.....

The spanish where not far away, indeed the cavalry where a day away after a long march throughout the night and the infantry 2 days.

-----------------
Te Govanor considered the message and then returned it, [i]Though we regrete having to leave the city I must accept your offer, however as this is an armistics not a surrender I request that you do not enter, or allow your men to enter, the city hall. This is still Spanish terratory and I will leave a guard of 100 men to protect it.

I also request that our wounded and dead be returned so that my men may treat them in our way-it would be wrong that they where buried without being shiriven."

ooc: Waiting for Gintonpar...

'We will not permit any Spanish armed forces to remain in Cadiz. Either you all march out of Cadiz now or the fleet will open fire on the city hall. We WILL enter the city hall whether you remain there or not. It is either over your corpses or through the main doors. You have our decision.'

With the Spanish cavalry only a day away the gates we re-barred and the walls garrisonned with 5,000 troops. Cavalry recoinassaince patrols were sent out to keep tabs on the Spanish but they were ordered not to engage in combat.

The pioneers work goes on removing all goods and treasures from the city onto the multitude of transport ships. All Catholic priests in the city, including the city's Bishop, are moved on board the transports also. In addittion to this, the pioneers begin to place incendiaries at various spots around the city. Efforts are made to move the civilian population outside of the city walls but mainly now efforts are made to begin moving the captured treasure and goods aboard the ships, along with the other 6,000 infantry and 1,800 cavalry that are not out on patrol.

Then I shall ahve to leave, though it may be against my honour I will not allow my soildiers and there famillys to risk any more hurt.

So the rest of the Spanish garison leave trough the main gate, the column pass the Swedish army with shame in hearts...

After a few hours of march, they meet up with the first Spanish riders...

Swedish cavalry patrols shadowing the Spanish column marching back towards its allies suddenly sees the first riders of the Spanish relief force. Messengers are sent back to Cadiz where work is accelerated in the loading of the ships and more troops are sent aboard. Incendiaries are also set increasingly in vital areas of the city. Massive powder deposits, mainly from the garrissons armoury, are set against weaker parts of the city's walls, with the aim being to slight the defences.

Preparations are made to leave the next morning and extra soldiers are drafted in to place the explosives and incendiaries.

ooc: those riders were just the front guard, the main cavalry force is some 3 hours behind them, and the whole army almost a day. You can expect the Spanish army to arive the next day at noon.

Govanor Rodregiez was riding at the head of his bedraggled force of men. They where marching in collum, 5 across, towards Badjoz when they sited cavalry on the Horizon. Behind the soildiers came a ragged straggle of Women and children.

The Cavalry, who carried the flags of spain, saw them and there Spanish colours and immidetly came forwards. They where Dragoons, long baldes tucked into the belts of there white uniforms.

There leader called to Rodregiez who egarly cantered forwards, "Who are you?"

"Govanor Rodregiez, sir! And all that remains of the garrison of Cadiz." The Cavalry leader, a major, crossed hismelf.

"Mary mother of god....thats all that left."

"Indeed, sir. I lost two thirds of my men in the defences of the city. We held out for as long as we could but to no avail. They sent 9,000 against our walls and we where overwlmed. We killed agood few though, sir."

The Major nodded at him, "You have a report?"

"Indeed." The Govanor handed over a sheet of paper that detailed the defence of cadiz. The major then handed it to a horseman that would atke it to the main army.

"I'm going to ride ahead, see what we can see. The main armys a day or so behind us, the rest of the cavalry less. If we can catch the bastards we will. But we need to hold them up as long as possable."

"Why?"

"Some of the fleet arrived back in Cadiz tomorrow, we got the message from Madrid about the same time we got yours. Admiral Villnurve decided that the full fleet wasn't needed and sent most of them back. He's keapt half the frigts and 74's to hunt down the pirates though. All the 100 gunners, and most of the rest of the fleet and sailing home to Cadiz."

Reports from scouts and merchants in Cadiz harbour reported the return of some of the Spanish fleet heading back over the ocean, also, the main Spanish army would be arriving in a matter of hours.

The last men and materials were loaded on board the ships and the incendiaries and explosives were set off. With a huge explosion, a great rent was torn in the South wall of the Cadiz defences. As the fleet pulled away out of the harbour, an inhuman glow began around the city hall and began to spread. Incendiaries caught flame and soon the whole city would be aflame. It seemed as if it would be a race between the Swedish fleet and the Spanish fleet on the way back to Sweden, however, the Swedish troops were just being deposited in the Netherlands to fight with them in a ground campaign, the rest of the ships were being sent with the warships and the goods taken from Cadiz, all the way back to Helsinki.

ooc: so, is this the end? Swedish left, cadiz is in fire, gold is taken and the Spanish ships are to far away to catch the Swedish. But if you want, i would love to moderate a naval battle... :rolleyes:

The approching Spanish fleet consited of 5 74's, 2 100's, several frigates and the largest ship in the world, a huge 140 gunner. (I'll post the name in a minuate.) It was currently sailing towards Cadiz but soon spotted the huge flames coming from the stricken city. The watchman aboard the flagship, the Virgin spotted the Swedish fleet, as the ships attempted to bypass the Spanish fleet. Immidietly the Spanish fleet turned and began a pursuit, hoping to cut the Swedish off.

ooc: so, is this the end? Swedish left, cadiz is in fire, gold is taken and the Spanish ships are to far away to catch the Swedish. But if you want, i would love to moderate a naval battle... :rolleyes:



ooc: In my view the Swedes would be a bit far for the Spanish to catch by now and we will have the coastal winds and currents. However, if I can persuade the Dutch to join in with their navy, maybe we could have a naval ding dong off the Dutch coast. My fleet I think will be riding the Gulf Stream as well as having the coastal breezes to help it on but if they can link up with the Dutch fleet then they will definetely give battle.

oh and Aust, your 140 gunner is the Santasima Trinidad. Sails like a brick, shoots a whollle lotta lead.

OOC: I just found that out, looked in my Copy of Trafalgar, Biography of the battle. Still thnaks anyway. My units and chasing yours right now.

ooc: so, the Swedish and Dutch ships meet the Spanish and we begin the battle?

OOC:They need to post there forces first.

Righto, well, my fleet consists of 5 ships of the line, I posted them in my own news thread a while ago as they are the only ships of the line I have, and I believe that Lachenburg posted his forces in his own news thread. So basically, my fleet is 5 ships of the line strong, each ship has between 60 and 64 guns. Lachenburg I think sent 20 ships of the line, his entire home fleet I think.

OOC: The Spanish fleet:

1st fleet: (Guns)
11 fships with fewer than 64 guns

The Neptuno (74)
The San Francisco de Asis (74)
The San Agustin (74)
The San Justo (74)
The San Leandro (74)

The Indomptable (105)
The Cadiz (100)

The Santisima Trinidad (140)

Renforcements:
6 frigates

The Barcalonia (74)
The King Charles (74)
The Don Chrisof (74)
The Pluton (74)
The Redoubtable (74)

The Algesiras (100)
The Rayo (100)

----------
The commadner of the Spanish fleet was Admiral Phyo, a hard man that had been in countless battles since he joined up as a midshipmen 40 years ago. Now he was 50, his right arm and left leg removed by a cannonball and thirsty for the blood. "Why won't the bastards give fight?" He asked his Captain, the captain just strugged.

A shout came from the Fore Topgallent mast, "Ships south." Turning his glass to the south the Admiral saw sails on the horizion, "13 ships," He murmered, "6 frigates, 5 74's and 2 100's. there Spanish." He hadned the glass back to a astonished side.

"How did you do that sir?"

"I reconise the cut of the Rayos sails, shes one of ours and so the rest must be. The rest was just estimating size from the sails. There half a day or so behind us but sailing quickly. We carry on our pursuit. The enermy proably havn't spotted them yet."

ooc: how many frigates does Gintonpars fleet have? Still waiting for Netherlands fleet...then we begin!

OOC: Dunno, but in a open battle frigates don't come into much, a friget has only 20-60 guns, thats tiny compared to a battleship.

Frigates won't figure at all in the fighting. They are scouts really.

Its 26 Dutch-Swedish ships of the line versus 15 Spanish ships of the line. Im just thinking, if Lachenburg wants to control this battle for our ships that will be fine with me as he has the majority of the ships but I will be happy to go for us if Lachenburg does not wish to.

ooc: ya see, that is my point, frigates are ships that had from 30 (if less, they are sloops or cuttlers) to 60 guns. And 60 guns are ONLY 14 guns less than 74 guns on ships of the line, so they will take a mayor role in the battle i think...

Otherwise, lets begin as soon as Lachenburg is ready...

They only had one fighting deck though t=so they could be constantly raked.

So basically, we are ready to begin? We will consider, for simplicity if nothing else, that the frigates play no part in the battle. Lachenburg do you wish to command the allied fleet or shall I? You have first choice as you have contributed most.

I am ready, only waiting for you all to start posting ic...

OOC: I'm ready.

ooc: Well, saying as Lachenburg isnt around at the mo I shall take command. But if he does come I will gladly hand over command.

IC:

Pfelpz, upon assuming command of the fleet, takes position in line off Calais
(ooc: we are fighting off there right?). He aims to fight in a traditional line of battle and trade volleys with the Spanish, hoping his significant numerical advantage will give him victory. He holds his 5 Swedish ships of the line in reserve behind the main line of battle, ready to plug any holes.

Admiral Phyo watched as the Spanish and Dutch fleets moved into line, a long crescent around two miles long. In his mind he weighed the possibilities, the coalition outnumbered him but French gunnery was notoriously slow and instead of using Flintlocks like his own ships they used lipsticks, which took twice the time to load and where notoriously inaccurate.

He was certain that Spanish gunnery would be quicker due to the large amounts of practice his men had put in on the journey home, and it was gunnery that won a battle. He smiled and drew up a chart, sketching the positions of the enemy ships and then his plan of attack.

The Swedish where well known for there practice of firing bar and chain shot at the enemies sails and rigging it a attempt to de-mast and slow there enemies advance. Not only was this hard to do and ineffective it also meant that they wasted shot that could have been peppering the enemies. A strong wind was coming from the south, driving his ships towards the enemy, he knew what he must do, he left his cabin and made his way to the signal Lutenant.

“Mister Castro, if you would be so king as to hoist flags to my fleet please.”

“Sir.”

“My compliments to the fleet, they are to form column on our ship please Mister Castro. They are then to call to quarters and prepare for a fight. We will sail directly into the enemy line and piece it. From there they are to use there own invite but the aim is to create a pell-mell battle in which there advantage in numbers won’t count.”

“Sir.” Phyos strategy was simple but effective. He wished to disable the enemies advantage in numbers by sailing directly into the heart of the enemy fleet, making the enemies at the east and west of the crescent useless. They would both have to tack into a strong wind to join in the fray, a task which would take hours for a ship who’s crew where not at battle stations, let alone for a ship whose crew where mainly below deck. His strategy did mean that his lead ships would have to endure around half an hour of raking but gunnery on board ships was notoriously inaccurate at a range of more than 300 yard and his ships would only be in that range for a matter of minutes before they crashed into the enemy line, unleashing triple loaded balls into the enemies stern and aft.

This would be a huge blow that would disable most ships, and even if it didn’t it would cripple many, taking out many of the enemies guns. He would then engage them in ship-to-ship combat, a pell mell battle that would make the enemies advantage in numbers work against them. With more of his ships arriving any minute he could take advantage of his superior gunnery and disable many of the enemy ships before reinforcements arrived.

Admiral Phyo watched as the Spanish and Dutch fleets moved into line, a long crescent around two miles long. In his mind he weighed the possibilities, the coalition outnumbered him but French gunnery was notoriously slow and instead of using Flintlocks like his own ships they used lipsticks, which took twice the time to load and where notoriously inaccurate.

He was certain that Spanish gunnery would be quicker due to the large amounts of practice his men had put in on the journey home, and it was gunnery that won a battle. He smiled and drew up a chart, sketching the positions of the enemy ships and then his plan of attack.

The Swedish where well known for there practice of firing bar and chain shot at the enemies sails and rigging it a attempt to de-mast and slow there enemies advance. Not only was this hard to do and ineffective it also meant that they wasted shot that could have been peppering the enemies. A strong wind was coming from the south, driving his ships towards the enemy, he knew what he must do, he left his cabin and made his way to the signal Lutenant.

“Mister Castro, if you would be so king as to hoist flags to my fleet please.”

“Sir.”

“My compliments to the fleet, they are to form column on our ship please Mister Castro. They are then to call to quarters and prepare for a fight. We will sail directly into the enemy line and piece it. From there they are to use there own invite but the aim is to create a pell-mell battle in which there advantage in numbers won’t count.”

“Sir.” Phyos strategy was simple but effective. He wished to disable the enemies advantage in numbers by sailing directly into the heart of the enemy fleet, making the enemies at the east and west of the crescent useless. They would both have to tack into a strong wind to join in the fray, a task which would take hours for a ship who’s crew where not at battle stations, let alone for a ship whose crew where mainly below deck. His strategy did mean that his lead ships would have to endure around half an hour of raking but gunnery on board ships was notoriously inaccurate at a range of more than 300 yard and his ships would only be in that range for a matter of minutes before they crashed into the enemy line, unleashing triple loaded balls into the enemies stern and aft.

This would be a huge blow that would disable most ships, and even if it didn’t it would cripple many, taking out many of the enemies guns. He would then engage them in ship-to-ship combat, a pell mell battle that would make the enemies advantage in numbers work against them. With more of his ships arriving any minute he could take advantage of his superior gunnery and disable many of the enemy ships before reinforcements arrived.



ooc: haha the Nelson approach, rather unimaginative. And a few minor points:

What on Earth is the lipstick method of firing guns?

The French have no part in this battle. We are the Swedish and Dutch and the Dutch had a very strong navy at this point that had been fighting colonial engagements for a long time. The Swedish ships are less useful, but the Dutch are more than a match in training and gunnery for the Spanish ships.

The crescent is not a totally unfavourable formation against your attack, it may be able to wrap around your thin column and surround it, we will see.

I am not sure about your information that the Swedes used bar and chain excessively, please site your source for this. This was, I know, a French tactic, but Swedish? Cite your source.


IC:

As the Spanish ships formed into line the 2 ships at the furthest points from the centre of the battleline were recalled to join the 5 ship reserve that was formed by the Swedes. The Allied reserve now totalled 7 ships, nearly half of the Spanish fleets full total. This made the formation two lines, one smaller than the other, the second line would fight a breakthrough if one occured.

The Dutch ships, well seasoned veterans of colonial ship to ship encounters and of continental blockade and fleet encounters readied their guns. Their orders were not to blind themselves with smoke at long distance but to wait until the range reached 250 and then open fire.

The Swedish ships readied themselves for a boarding action. Less well trained than either the Dutch or the Spanish crews, they filled their upper decks with marksmen and paid little attention to gunnery. If a breakthrough was effected they would attempt to board enemy ships swiftly. To furher this purpose, a small detachment of regular soldiers from the main army had been left on board to aid the marines.

The fleet waited until the Spanish came within 250 yards and then opened fire.

The Spanish sail direcly towards the Dutch line and they are under constant fire from the enemy. The Neptuno and two smaller ships are damaged before reaching the line, but are not destroyed or sunk. They will not take any part in this battle...

But the main force reaches the line almost undamaged. A mistake is made and the huge Santisima Trinidad chrashes into one of the Duch ships of the line and knocks it aside, throwing most of its crew flying on the ground, but is slightly damaged itself.

The Spanish ships then form a line on the other side of the Dutch line and open fire, fireing 2 salvos before the Duch manage to open hatches and prepare cannons on this side of ships. One of the Dutch ships of the line is hit criticly several times and start to lean on its left side...it will sink in a mathe of minutes...

Then the lines just exchange salvo after salvo and the air is filled with smoke, screams of wounded and the noise of cannons. After a few minutes, a great explosion is heard and a great column on fire, more than 20 meters high bursts in the air. It was from the Spanish ship, The Cadiz, wich was hit in the gunpowder stores and exploded, the explosion torn it on two pieces, and it sunk in just a few seconds...
The Barcalonia and The Pluton are badly damaged, while 3 Dutch ships are also heavily damaged, and one is sunk.

The Swedish close in on the Spanish ships. They caught them unprepared, and fighting erupts on the decks of Don Kristof and king Charels. As the Swedis atempt to board San Augustin from Helsingborg, the ships hutches open and cannons are slided into positions. The Swedish were to suprised to react, and 37 Spanish cannons fire simultaniusly into the hull of the ship. Helsingbord leans dangerusly as water start to burst into the ship from the lowest holes. After a minute or two, it flips around completly and starts to go down, draginga most if its crew with it...

ooc: The battle is curently quiet a draw i would say, but the superior numbers of the Dutch will probably make the diference if the Spanish doesn't come up with something soon.

ooc: haha the Nelson approach, rather unimaginative. And a few minor points:

What on Earth is the lipstick method of firing guns?

Misplelling of one way of firing a gun, which uses a match not a flintlock.


The French have no part in this battle. We are the Swedish and Dutch and the Dutch had a very strong navy at this point that had been fighting colonial engagements for a long time. The Swedish ships are less useful, but the Dutch are more than a match in training and gunnery for the Spanish ships.
Mistake

The crescent is not a totally unfavourable formation against your attack, it may be able to wrap around your thin column and surround it, we will see.

They would ahve to tack to get there though.

I am not sure about your information that the Swedes used bar and chain excessively, please site your source for this. This was, I know, a French tactic, but Swedish? Cite your source. This was a standered tactic of all Europien navys. Source, Trafalgar, The Biography of the battle


The battle was now a pell mell melee, with boith sides viusion obasucred by clouds of acidic smoke that drifted across the water. On board the Santisima Trinidad Admiral Phyo watches the battle unfold. There is no sue in signals now as the smoke would obsure almost all of them. The battle was currently going well. 5 enermy ships where so badly damaged that they would atke no part in the fighting, two ahd sunk and he still ahd the advantage of numbers in the fight. Fresh Dutch ships where sailing in but they ahd to tack against the wind and would take time to arrive. He'd bloodyed the enermy, now was time to withdraw and wait for more renforcemnts to arrive.

Seeing Sweish ships ahead, ships that have been boarding the king Charels and the Kristof he orders his men to triple shot there cannons before sialing towards the ships stern unloading a broadside into the first enermy ship and then reloading while he slowly sails by the Spanish ships. then he released another trmendous broadside into the enermy ship.

Then he turned his great beast of war round and brought it broadside witht he second enermy, already realing from the first broadside. His men are reloading as fast as they can, punding the enermy with broadside after broadside, while his upperdeck, a deck higher than the enermy, fires canister down to clear there decks.

Lookung around as the carnage unfolds below he sees his ships working as he wanted them too, moving in pairs or threes and crippling one enermy ship at a time with joint broadsides, demasting it, and then leaving the ship along, not destroyed but unusable. They can return for them later.

In this way he was gradually grinding through the enermy fleet, demast one ship, and move on.

ooc: I think if your plan is to pull out of the battle that will almost certainly require tacking if the battle is indeed as pell mell as you say and that would give time for the remaining Dutch ships to arrive in the fight. I don't really think a hit and run raid is feasible if you intend to escape in time for missing the Dutch ships returning from the wings.

IC:

Two of the uncommitted Swedish ships and a Dutch ship move to attempt to board the Santasima Trinidad, the whole crews of both ships will be used, they plan to fire on volley with the cannon and then link the ships together with grappling hooks before boarding.

The uncommited ships are told to engage the enemy fleet and hold them in position with grappling hooks and shooting it out or boarding them depending on the situation.

OOC: Have you any idea how dirfficult it is to board a four deck ship? You have snipers in the rigging, carronades, boarding p[ikes,. My upper cannons are all firing canister as well-in short you'll be punded into rubble, at tranflaga it took 3 British 74's and a 100 gunner to take the Trinidad, and that was after 5 hours of fighting.

IC: Seeing the enermys plans to board him Admiral Phyo smiled, he was walking the Trindiads battle deck as the first of the grapplying hooks flew over, he'd already ordered that the carronades be triple shottered and that his top deck of ghuns be loaded with grape.

An enermy which managed to get through the hail of musket fire from the 200 or so marines on board would have to then get through the canister and grape from a carronade and only then would they have to fight past the boarding pikes and men ready to defend the small avenues onto his ship.

While this was happening his lower cannons would be pouning the enermy, 3 shots every 5 minuates from each cannon, reducing the enermys center to rubble.

OOC: Have you any idea how dirfficult it is to board a four deck ship? You have snipers in the rigging, carronades, boarding p[ikes,. My upper cannons are all firing canister as well-in short you'll be punded into rubble, at tranflaga it took 3 British 74's and a 100 gunner to take the Trinidad, and that was after 5 hours of fighting.

IC: Seeing the enermys plans to board him Admiral Phyo smiled, he was walking the Trindiads battle deck as the first of the grapplying hooks flew over, he'd already ordered that the carronades be triple shottered and that his top deck of ghuns be loaded with grape.

An enermy which managed to get through the hail of musket fire from the 200 or so marines on board would have to then get through the canister and grape from a carronade and only then would they have to fight past the boarding pikes and men ready to defend the small avenues onto his ship.

While this was happening his lower cannons would be pouning the enermy, 3 shots every 5 minuates from each cannon, reducing the enermys center to rubble.


ooc: It may be difficult but it is by no means impractical. Our snipers will outnumber yours considerably, as will the proportion of marines on our ships as they have been reinforced from land, also, even if we do not take it, it will be impossible to disentangle without hours of work with all the grappling hooks and entangled cables. Grenades will also be thrown to attempt to start fires aboard that Spanish vessel. Anyway, leave it to Wolfenbach.

ooc: sorry for not posting yesterday.

The lines keep pounding each other, causing many casualties in personel on each side. The Dutch numbers were starting to come up. After abouth an hour of consatnt bombardment, one spanish 74' and one 100 gunner were sunk, while another 74' was badly damaged.
One of the Dutch biggest ships was completly destroyed and its pieces laid all over the see. Two more took heavy damage.

The fighting on King Charels and San Kristof still hunged in the balance, but the Spanish were slowly beating off the Swedish marines.

The 3 ships moved in on Santisima, wich opened fire, but couldnt prevent them to come close enough. The hooks and cables started flying all over the ships as the enemy borded. They took many casualties, but aventuly, they bursted on the deck. Fighting erupted and many were killed.

ooc:
The curent casualties:
-Swedish: Helsingborg sunk, one of the ships bording Santisima damaged.
-Dutch: Three ships sunk, 5 damaged so badly that they are not able to fight anymore.
-Spanish: Two 74' and one 100' sunk, 4 ships badly damaged, 3 ships engaged in man on man combat and are also curently not able to fight.

Admiral Phyo lunged forward with his sabre and cught the man attacking him in the cheast, forcing him down. Behind him and next to him his maribnes forght like madmen, cutlasses swinging wildly. Shouts and screams choed round thr Quater deck along with the bangs of the guns and carronades as the lower decks continued to bombard the enermy and carronades continued to unload canister into the ranks of the enermy.

Musketry was still sounding as his marines that where not involved in the fighting fired shot after shot into the enermys that tried to board continiously. The admiral watched as a midshipman come towards him, blocked a lunge and then stabbed downwards into the boys leg, feeling a stab of pity he let the boy limb back to whence he came.

His men where putting up a good fight, the enermy stood little chance of breaking there lines, it was out and out fighting on the deck now though little more than a brawl but the width of the deck meant that advantage in numebrs didn't count so much. They'd managed to keep the enermy in pockets, attacking the places where they'd found a safe way on board and blasting them with fire and steel.

he blocked another thrust, and saw a tomahawk come searing down as he a man tired to cleve him in two. Hauling his sword up the blade bit deep into the mans arm and with his free hand the admiral fired his pistol into the enermy sheast.

Christs this was hard work!
----------------------
Elsewhere in the battle the Spanish ships where still continueing there work, aiming only to demast there opponents and then leave the enermy sitting in there hulks. Though there where now 7 spanish ships wnable to move, though 5 of them could still badly damaged, no spanish ship had yet struck.

ooc: just a minor thing. I think that less ships would be sunk, they would probably strike their colours rather than sink.

IC:

On the ships where the Swedish marines are being driven back, the carronades and upper deck cannon are loaded again and fired upwards at the men opposing the marines, rather than firing low to sink the ship.

On board the Santasima Trinidad the marksmen in the rigging of the allied ships are told, not that they needed much encouragement, to aim at the officers on the quarter deck. Most of the normal sailors on board also are told to get into the fight as soon as possible.

[QUOTE=Gintonpar]ooc: just a minor thing. I think that less ships would be sunk, they would probably strike their colours rather than sink.

Well, in a middle of a horific battle, not all men are looking when the enemy will put up a flag, and they would almost be unable to see it in all the smoke and explosions.
Also, if a ship is hit in the right spot, it will go down no mather if it surenders or not...

OOC: I'm still trying to work out why your trying to take out my admiral by tying up 3 ships in the process?

IC: The enermys attempts to 'snipe' the officeers was failing due to the sheer crush of the fight. Almost 1200 men where aboard the Trinidad and with almost the same amount attacking it was litterally a crush-it was hard to tell which side each person belonged too. The Spanish stood there ground and refused to be forced back, while below the cannons still sent ball after ball smashing into the oppersitions ships, surley one would be heavley damaged soon.

OOC: I'm still trying to work out why your trying to take out my admiral by tying up 3 ships in the process?

IC: The enermys attempts to 'snipe' the officeers was failing due to the sheer crush of the fight. Almost 1200 men where aboard the Trinidad and with almost the same amount attacking it was litterally a crush-it was hard to tell which side each person belonged too. The Spanish stood there ground and refused to be forced back, while below the cannons still sent ball after ball smashing into the oppersitions ships, surley one would be heavley damaged soon.


I am not trying to take out your admiral as much as trying to take out your capital ship. And we have ships to spare as well, we outnumber you greatly.

OC: Just a point, you do know that snipers are almopst useless in a sea battle don't you, thmuskets are only accurate (Sea muskets that is, they have a shorter berrel) are about 20 meters and where considered usless at any distance larger than 100 meters.

I'm calling them snipers to save saying, "musket armed men in the fighting tops". I realise they have no hope of picking off specific targets but there are enough men there to cause considerable casualties among sailors on the top deck of enemy ships.

The lines keep pounding each other. The Dutch numbers are starting to come up, as 3 of the Spainsh ships get sorounded by a higher number of enemy ships. They put up a fierce fight, and manage to damage 2 Dutch ships, of wich one stats to slowly sink, it will take several days for the crew to fix it totaly, and it might even sink. But after one of the three ships is sunked, the other two, badly damaged, surender...
The rest of the Spanish ships are still holding, but it will not take long for the allies to take them out.

On board of Charels, the Swedish marines are pushed back, several of them not able to jump back on their ship, are captured. The attack has been repulsed, but Charels will not be able to operate eficiently due to many loses among its crew. As on Kristof, the figh continoues and still hungs in the balance.

On Santisima, almost 2000 men form a moving and twisting pile of meat, blood and cold steel. It is almost impossible to see who is wining, and the fight will probably last for a few more hours...

2 Ships that have recently become disengaged after defeating their Spanish opponents move to rake the Santasima Trinidad, they are told to aim low to disable the guns and kill more crew members and to avoid hitting allied troops fighting on the main deck.

Prize crews are put aboard captured ships and told to sail as soon as possible for Amsterdam but, if the ship is not able to make it there they are told to head for Calais.

The spanish ships that where not engaged slowly began to move away from the battle, still fighting with any enermy they see but pulling out slowly.

On the Santasima Trinidad Admiral Phyo, seeing the enermy coming into rake his men orders that are not fighting to make there way to the upper deck or to lie down between there guns.

OOC: Surley the Trinidads fire must have been doing some damage by now?She's been hammering three ships, without reply, for almost 2 hours now. (Thats how long I'm guessing the two ships have been engaged.)

OOC: Surley the Trinidads fire must have been doing some damage by now?She's been hammering three ships, without reply, for almost 2 hours now. (Thats how long I'm guessing the two ships have been engaged.)

Sorry, totaly forgot to post abouth that.

IC:

The Spanish navy backs away from the battle, damaging another of the Dutch ships that refused to move even when it was attacked by 3 Spanish ships.

On Kristof, the Swedes are beaten off, but the crew has many problems due to lack of working arms, and the ship strugles to get away fro the enemy.

Most of the Spanish navy was geting away, with the Dutch on their backs, but the result is that Santisima is left in the middle of the enemy ships... The fighting was turning into a sloughter, as men got to close to use sabers and muskets, and they started to use daggers, hands and even teeth. But it was still to crowded to determine who is winning, and even when the Swedish reenfocments arrived, they were not able to board any new men, that crowded it was on the first deck.
The pounding from Santisima was started to show off, as one of the ships started leaning on the side. Sudenly, a strong wind started blowing and as Santisima started going, it draged the unfortune ship slowly behind, almost triping it over.

It was starting with a little drops, and it soon started to pour down on the fighting men, as the sky itself tried to stop the sloughter and cryed for all the dead man...
A storm broke out...

Can I just say, I think it would be pretty tough to disengage entirely from naval combat. Both ships would be too damaged to consider sailing. If they are in battle then it is either surrender or victory. The ships would be too damaged to escape from combat, they would have too little active crew members and their masts and sails would be shot through. It is rare that a naval engagement fought at point blank range would allow many ships to escape.

Ooo and a storm, nice idea. Though I imagine both sides will be too bone tired and...dead.. to do much but ride the storm out.

oOC: Actually most shiips could sail,eeven if they wehre hulks (Boats) even though after Trafalgar 19 prizes where lost that was during a hurricane and mainly due to Collingwords decison to countermand Nelsons order to go to anchor-and the closeness of the snadbanks of Cadiz and cape Trafalgar.

At traflagar around half the french ships that ahdn't struck sailed away, and that was without the storm.

IC: The storm boiled and raged as the Trinidads great sails, holed though they where, began to take it away to the south, driving it with the other Spanish ships beating a retreat from the battle. Night was falling and unless the two fleet came to anchor they would surley be scattered and sweapt out to sea.

Aboard the Trinidad aorund 300 enermy servicement, plus the dead, where trapped aboard as the winds took the ships from it;'s enermy, dragging one unfortunate vessel with it.

The rest of the spanish fleet continued sailing south.

Errr....BUMP?

ooc: so despite having grappling hooks stuck on your ship and being tangled with 3 other ships the Trinidad has just sailed out of the melee? Oh well.

IC:

The unengaged allied ships are ordered to take up firing positions and then weigh anchor against the oncoming storm. All badly damaged prizes and heavily damaged ships are ordered to head for Calais if they are too badly hurt and if they can whether a storm they too are ordered to weigh anchor and take up firing positions. The storm should drastically lower mobility so the alliance prepared to shoot it out.

OOC:Grappling hooks can break, and the sails of a ship like the Trinidad, especially in strong winds, could probably pull your ships with it. And you ships would be moving as well you know.

IC: The Spanish ships began to withdraw, taking themselves out of firing range and licking there wounds. Repairs began aboard the most ships.

OOC:Grappling hooks can break, and the sails of a ship like the Trinidad, especially in strong winds, could probably pull your ships with it. And you ships would be moving as well you know.

I belive that a few dozen ropes and the weight of 3 BIG ships would couse the Santisimas sails to tore in the strong wind...

ic:

The fighting on Santisima continues as the ship strugles to break free with 1000 enemy marines and sailors still on board. The fighting is getting realy fierce and it is still unable to see any of the sides gaining an upper hand.

After a few hours, the winds calm and the raining stops, the clouds break and sun starts to shine weakly...

As the storm seems to pass, the anchored allied ships prepare to resume the battle and bring it within close quarters once again.

The Spanish fleet however knows that there work is done, all they have to do is free the tridad adn then they can claim the battle as a vicotry. Accordingly almost half the remaining fleet sail towadrs the area where the Tridad has drifted too, and the others sail to form a line of battle to hold off the enermy until the tridad is freed.

How on Earth can you claim a victory? You have just fled the battle before running back and you have had a good lot of your ships damaged, sunk or captured. You have achieved nothing but sinking a few of our ships, you have not retaken the convoy from Cadiz carrying the treasure and supplies and you have lost more ships than us anyway. Also, your ships sailing back to help the Santasima will be met by the rest of our fleet so you are just rejoining the battle once again against superior numbers.

My opinion (as a player, not moderator):

After the damaged and captured ships left, the Dutch still have some 10 ships left + 1 Swedish + 3 Swedish hooked to trinidad...

Your fleet, on the other hand, only have 5 fully functional ships left + Santisima wich is engaged...i sugest you leave Santisima to ist faith and turn tail and save atleast the few you have left...

OOC: By my count I've badly damaged/sunk 14 of his ships and lost 7 ships badly damaged/sunk and 2 captured. Plus the 5 enermy ships attack the Trinidad are all damaged and one of them will sink. Thus I can claim a victory.

I think it's now 12 enermy ships vs 6 of my ships (Not including the Trinidad), but 5 of your ships are tangled with the Trinidad so it's actually 7 vs 6. I'm presuming the battles spread out a bit as well.

There must be a mistake there. Moderator?

OOC: Thats just an estimate, i went through all the posts and counted how many forces had been commited/sunk/badly damaged and that was what I got.

Ok, by my count, it is:

-Swedish and Dutch: 4 ships sunk, 8 ships badly damaged (they sail away, so they will ''live'' but will not be in this battle anymore), 1 ship at Santisima will probably sink...wich leaves 25 (starting) -13 (casualties) = 12 (of wich 5 is at Santisima)

-Spanish: 4 ships sunk, 4 damaged, 2 captured...wich leaves: 15 (starting) - 10 (casualties) = 5 (of wich one is Santisima wich is engaged, and 2 ships with lack of crew...)

So, if you ask me, it is: 7 Swedish/Dutch against 4 Spanish (of wich two have missing crew) + Santisima against 5 ships...

OOC: Thus I can claim victory. My idea of battle positions here is that the wind is comign from the south so that battle over the Trinidad has been clown north, away from the other ships who came to anchor. i said my ships withdrew and I guess they withdrew with the wind so my idea of the feild is your ships to the south (rogether) mine to the north (They sailed through your line) and the Trinidad to the west somewehre, north of my ships (We anchored they didn't). Proabaly a mile or so way. Now my ships are sailing into the wind to reach it, I'm probably closer but you've got more men. My aim is to free the Trinidad and sail away with it, preferrably destroying your ships.

OOC: Thus I can claim victory. My idea of battle positions here is that the wind is comign from the south so that battle over the Trinidad has been clown north, away from the other ships who came to anchor. i said my ships withdrew and I guess they withdrew with the wind so my idea of the feild is your ships to the south (rogether) mine to the north (They sailed through your line) and the Trinidad to the west somewehre, north of my ships (We anchored they didn't). Proabaly a mile or so way. Now my ships are sailing into the wind to reach it, I'm probably closer but you've got more men. My aim is to free the Trinidad and sail away with it, preferrably destroying your ships.


You can claim what you like. Half your fleet is a smoking ruin.

IC: The Allied fleet makes to intercept the rescue ships coming from the main Spanish fleet while the fight is continued on the Trinidad.

The fight on Trinidad continues, but the Swedish numbers are strting to come up. The only hope now is to sent all the sailors from the canons to the fray and hopingly, they will hold long enough for the rescue ships to arive. These ships are coming closer, but the Dutch are moving in to intercept them, only a great manouver can now save the Spanish fleet from defeat and bring them to victory...

OOC> As is half your fleet, and tour fleets larger. I've damaged/destroyed more ships, thus i win.

IC: The Spanish ships turned away from the fray, relaising that they had little hope of saving the trinidad, on boadr the stricken ship Admiral Phyo, heavly injued inseveral places has made way down to the powerder store and is waiting ready to blow the ship once the enermy reach him...

OOC> As is half your fleet, and tour fleets larger. I've damaged/destroyed more ships, thus i win.

IC: The Spanish ships turned away from the fray, relaising that they had little hope of saving the trinidad, on boadr the stricken ship Admiral Phyo, heavly injued inseveral places has made way down to the powerder store and is waiting ready to blow the ship once the enermy reach him...



oh my goodness. I love your reasoning. the victory isnt in the amount of ships destroyed but how many each side has left. once this is over I will be able to go to spain and raid and pillage where I like. it would take months to recall the grand fleet from the caribbean.

Ok, now the point is NOBODY WON! You both sunk 4 ships...all damged ships can be repaird, so they don't count as casualties... 4 Spanish ships were sunk and 2 captured, wich is 6 ships lost...The alliance lost 4 ships and captured 2, wich is 2 casualties (4-2).

P.S. So, you leave Trinidad to its doom, it will be a lot of casuaties to the Swedish, but it will be taken... :confused:
The rest of the ships can escape, but that means you lose Trinidad...

OOC: I can claim vicotry if I wish, just as the French and Spanish did after Trafalgar. (seriously!) Raiding and pillageing my chost? I've only lost a few ships and you've lost about the same amount, neathier side has truly gained any advantage. i still ahve a larger (I balive) fleet. You could only defeat me with Hollands aid reamber.

Your saying that it'll case a lot of casults-I've already said that I plan to fire it and blow it up (And anything attached to it,) via the powder store.

OOC: I can claim vicotry if I wish, just as the French and Spanish did after Trafalgar. (seriously!) Raiding and pillageing my chost? I've only lost a few ships and you've lost about the same amount, neathier side has truly gained any advantage. i still ahve a larger (I balive) fleet. You could only defeat me with Hollands aid reamber.

Your saying that it'll case a lot of casults-I've already said that I plan to fire it and blow it up (And anything attached to it,) via the powder store.


This is up to the mod whether it happens or not. In my opinion there is a good chance his own crew would foil him, they would rather surrender, he would have to have a heart of steel to do it. Also he could get stopped by the Swedes on his way. Mods decision, but I think it is morally wrong for him to do and maybe impractical.

And I never knew the French/Spanish claimed victory after Trafalgar. haha that is truly amazing.

This is up to the mod whether it happens or not. In my opinion there is a good chance his own crew would foil him, they would rather surrender, he would have to have a heart of steel to do it. Also he could get stopped by the Swedes on his way. Mods decision, but I think it is morally wrong for him to do and maybe impractical.

And I never knew the French/Spanish claimed victory after Trafalgar. haha that is truly amazing.
OOC: theres about 20 French 'Victorys' on the arc de trempth, Viotra, Traflagar and Talevera are all up there,incredable really. And you ahve reamber this guys cxreapt down and is deady to blow the ship. It's the mods decsion.

Admiral Pyro goes down the stairs with a hand full of most thrusted officers. They cary a single torch... As they get to the gunpowder storage, a few sailors block their way, trying to stop their mad commander. The officers drw sabers and comand them to remove themself. As they refuse to do so, a fight ocure. In all the pushing and fighting, the torch flies out of Pyros hand and lands on one of the bagsm a small fire erupts, but it is getting bigger...

The rest of the allied ships, being half a mile away, hear a loud explosion, a huge column of fire erupts on the horison, as the biggest ship that ever existed is blown to pieces...


ooc:

5 Swedish ships that were at Santisima alre heavily damaged and the sailors will have to put out all the fires... Both sides can claim victories, but it was a disasterus battle...

Conclusion:

-Ships:
4 Spanish ships are damaged, but will be repaird... 13 Swedish and Dutch ships damaged (including those damaged by Santisimas explosion)...

5 Spanish ships sunk (including Santisima) and 2 captured... 4 Swedish and Dutch ships sunk, but they captured 2 ships...

-Men:
The Swedish and Dutch lost around 7000... The Spanish lost around 5000 and some 1000 captured...


I hope you both liked the battle...if you think i did any mistakes, please tell me...

OOC: The only thing i can think of that as there ships are grappling to the Trinidad they too will be blown out of the water....then there poder stores go off and....

No, look...if you got one ship that explodes, all ships close will be shocked and their sails would probably set on fire, but the storages are below deck...also, some crew would die via flying parts...

OOC: They arn't just clsoe by though, there grappling on, still your choice, your the mod.

Ok, to play it completly fair and neutral, i'll put it this way, i'll roll 5 dices, for each 1-3, a ship is sunk.

So, here it goes, the dice scores:

1. dice: 5
2. dice: 1
3. dice: 6
4. dice: 3
5. dice: 6

So, 2 of the Swedish ships are sunk, and 3 are still ok...

If you or Gintonpar doesn't agree, please, tell me another way to determine this...

Ok, to play it completly fair and neutral, i'll put it this way, i'll roll 5 dices, for each 1-3, a ship is sunk.

So, here it goes, the dice scores:

1. dice: 5
2. dice: 1
3. dice: 6
4. dice: 3
5. dice: 6

So, 2 of the Swedish ships are sunk, and 3 are still ok...

If you or Gintonpar doesn't agree, please, tell me another way to determine this...



I don't think thats fair really. For a start I think its ludicrous that the ship would be blown up voluntarily. I find it impossible to believe that these men were willing to sacrifice theirs and all of their crews lives. Absolutely stupid. Human nature would prevail it is ridiculous. They would either be stopped or would not even consider it, this is political suicide for a cause I doubt any had the stomach for at this time. I would ask you to reconsider the fact that they blow up their own ship. Look at it from a human point of view, why would they kill all of their own men? They are not politically motivated men, they are just ordinary soldiers. There is no dishonour is surrendering, its hardly the middle ages.

And the explosion would be channeled upwards anyway by the extra protection afforded to the ammunition store. You would likely see a pillar of fire shoot into the sky rather than outwards.

You see, i only want to make it fair, if i say it is blown up, that isn't ok with you, but if i say it isn't, that isn't ok with Aust...

Ok, forgot abouth my last two posts, i will think abouth it and than post my final decision...

OOC: There are many istances in sea battles where French Captains attempted to fire there own ships, or fight until the last man. Captain Lucus of the Redemption at Trafalgar for example lost around 60% of his crea nd still refused to surrender, he also tried to board the victory and blow his own ship up. (English Marines stopped him) several other French captains idd the same but mostof the time they failed. there are theorys that the Arcille was fired dilberatly by her captain.There is historical precident.

Admiral Villenerve at Trafalgar ordered all his ships crews to fire there ships, the germans scuttled there ships in te second/first world war. At the nile it was balived several ships wehre diliberatly fired.

OOC: There are many istances in sea battles where French Captains attempted to fire there own ships, or fight until the last man. Captain Lucus of the Redemption at Trafalgar for example lost around 60% of his crea nd still refused to surrender, he also tried to board the victory and blow his own ship up. (English Marines stopped him) several other French captains idd the same but mostof the time they failed. there are theorys that the Arcille was fired dilberatly by her captain.There is historical precident.

Admiral Villenerve at Trafalgar ordered all his ships crews to fire there ships, the germans scuttled there ships in te second/first world war. At the nile it was balived several ships wehre diliberatly fired.


Maybe when there was a chance of escape. A crew would not commit mass suicide. These men have no chance of escape and simply would not do this.

OOC: who said it was the crew, in many cases it was the captains. The captains where from the arastocracy wand where brought up on a glorious martyer, serve the king, ect. idealism and where keen to carry it out. much like the suicide bimbers of today.

Ok, here is my decision, please understand me, i cannot make this to be right for both of you, so i will try my best!

The Santisima isn't blown up by the explosion, it only catches in flames and is havily damaged. The Swedes lost another 500 on the ship, but is finaly taken together with some 200 Spanish prisoners. The ship will not make it to Sweden, so it must be taken to the nerest port were it will stay for more than half a year before it will be able to sail forward.

So, the Spanish casualties (in men): 5300 lost, 1200 captured.
And the Swedish: Around 7500 killed and 1500 injured.
Toatal Swedish and Dutch loses (from the battle and attack): 11.500 dead, injured or missing.

This is my final decision, so please no more complains, you got to understand its noting personal, but in war, only one can win...

OOC: Okay.

agreed. it will go to Amsterdam probably and be refitted there. sorry i havnt posted recently but tonight i should get some stuff up. ive been real busy.