NationStates Jolt Archive

Einhauser, I never said that my people were like Superman, don't be a fool. I simply choose to RP with that population. Now, RP'ing with people like you, who vastly expand their populations for reasons best know to them, this would, of course, handicap me.

However, if I choose to RP with someone who follows a similar ideal to myself, that handicap is nullified. Therefore, it's not a godmod, it's a choice.

If you will wait for a moment, I'd like to go write up a post detailing my argument. You can poke holes in it when I'm done :p

If you will wait for a moment, I'd like to go write up a post detailing my argument. You can poke holes in it when I'm done :p
I'm not laughing.

What's this all about now?

What's this all about now?
Einhauser is claiming that upping your population in order to play FT is not a godmod, but using your actual NS population to do the same thing is. I disagree.

I have no problem with people upping their population, I just choose to not RP with them, because of the obvious handicap I would suffer as a result. However, I fail to see how using my actual NS population to play FT is godmod.

Its an extension of Snake Eaters' Logistics thread.

Einhauser believes that one can only have an empire if he/she buffs up their ns population by several orders of magnitude. Me and SE are trying to say that such may be all well and good, but using them to economic and military advantage is godmodding.

Stick to your NS stats in all things relating to actual national power and there will be no issue.

Indeed. There's nothing wrong with having sparsely populated planets.

But I'll wait for the detailed post before I start poking holes in it.

Ok, a lot of peoples populations are in or over the 1 billion mark correct? Earth has about 6 billion people on it; and its already a bit crowded.

Whats wrong with an FT nation establishing colonies with only a few hundred thousand there, a few 100,000 there, and so on and so forth? Theres no rule that says that X amount of people must be put on this planet to be a colony.

I think this is pretty much a stupid type of thread, in the sense that its all based on peoples perceptions of roleplay.

I actually started it for myself and Einhauser, to avoid a thread hijack of the Logistics thread.

That I understand, just givin my $.02

So you are saying because you are an FT RPer you can bump your population AND use it for military and economic bonuses without it being a godmod?

Oh Einhauser, thou art :sniper:

Population is a tool for use in roleplays. It has no other uses, except to signify how old an account is. In future tech settings, the population is even more important. People mine precious materials from planets. They toil in the factories (the ones that are not automated) that produce your nation’s weapons. They work the farms that feed your empire. Without people, a galactic union is not possible.

Some argue that they can get by with only a token population in the billions. I have to argue against this. It is very well possible to colonize a world (assuming it is not a deathworld or gas giant) with, let’s say, 300 people. But, those 300 men, women, and children will only be able to do so much. Take Earth, for example. One country, one country, has a population of 1 billion. If you combine all the country’s pops, you get 6 billion. That is on one world.

Earth is not even heavily populated, if you think about it. I can walk over to a window right now and see grass, and trees, and empty blue sky (well, right now it is actually gray sky, but you get my meaning). A capitol world in an empire would have built up an enormous population over the millennia that it has been in service, because people have an annoying tendency to raise families. You could always send the kids off to some distant world to mine or farm, but they are still present, bringing your population up.

That isn’t even counting forge worlds, which would have populations in the high billions, if not trillions by themselves. Granted, not everyone uses forge worlds, but any kind of highly industrialized planet is bound to have gigantic pops.

Worlds with something to offer, such as agriworlds (a generic term for rural agricultural planets) and capitol worlds, would naturally gain a large population of job seekers. These people have to come from somewhere; they can’t just appear in thin air.

All of that doesn’t even count a military, which would have to be several orders of magnitude larger than any MT nation’s, in order to keep rebellions down (everyone has rebellions) and patrol the borders.

In closing, arguing that you can control an empire with only billions is daft, if I do say so myself. It would be possible if all your people were able to fly at the speed of sound, had built in warp engines in their pants, and could lift as much as a hundred men, but they don’t.

Now, go ahead and say I'm loosing my mind, like I know you will. :D

So you are saying because you are an FT RPer you can bump your population AND use it for military and economic bonuses without it being a godmod?

Oh Einhauser, thou art :sniper:

Thank you.

Bumping the population, I don't have a problem with. Using that bumped population to gain an unfair economic and militaristic advantage... that is a godmod.

So you are saying because you are an FT RPer you can bump your population AND use it for military and economic bonuses without it being a godmod

No, im saying that if you dont have a huge population, it is a godmod. Plus, I have exactly the same, if not lower economic and military prowess than you guys.

<Snip>

You are stuck in your views. I acknowledge yours, and accept them as aviable method, providing you don't godmod, and use your bumped population to give yourself a bonus as you see fit with regard to economy or military.

Why can't you do the same to mine? It doesn't mean we have to RP together. It just means that we understand the others thinking.

I can see you do not wish to continue this convorsation, so unless asked to continue, this will be my last post on the subject, and it will also be to the point:

Using such a small population to control such a large empire is physically not possible.

I can see you do not wish to continue this convorsation, so unless asked to continue, this will be my last post on the subject, and it will also be to the point:

Using such a small population to control such a large empire is physically not possible.
Who said I have a large empire? I don't recall saying I have a large empire. Does anyone else recall me saying that I have a large empire?

EDIT: I am now deleting this thread. I will request deletion at 8:00PM, GMT.

Population is a tool for use in roleplays. It has no other uses, except to signify how old an account is. In future tech settings, the population is even more important. People mine precious materials from planets. They toil in the factories (the ones that are not automated) that produce your nation’s weapons. They work the farms that feed your empire. Without people, a galactic union is not possible.

People are not as necessary in such processes. In FT machinery is far advanced from today's technologies. One man could rather literally run an entire population with little to no added effort on his part.

Some argue that they can get by with only a token population in the billions. I have to argue against this. It is very well possible to colonize a world (assuming it is not a deathworld or gas giant) with, let’s say, 300 people. But, those 300 men, women, and children will only be able to do so much. Take Earth, for example. One country, one country, has a population of 1 billion. If you combine all the country’s pops, you get 6 billion. That is on one world.

We're not SAYING just a few hundred. A few million people can do everything necessary, especially when properly coordinated by central authority.

Earth is not even heavily populated, if you think about it. I can walk over to a window right now and see grass, and trees, and empty blue sky (well, right now it is actually gray sky, but you get my meaning). A capitol world in an empire would have built up an enormous population over the millennia that it has been in service, because people have an annoying tendency to raise families. You could always send the kids off to some distant world to mine or farm, but they are still present, bringing your population up.

Why do you keep thinking that a world HAS to be heavily populated?

That isn’t even counting forge worlds, which would have populations in the high billions, if not trillions by themselves. Granted, not everyone uses forge worlds, but any kind of highly industrialized planet is bound to have gigantic pops.

No its not. Again, Automation to the rescue.

Worlds with something to offer, such as agriworlds (a generic term for rural agricultural planets) and capitol worlds, would naturally gain a large population of job seekers. These people have to come from somewhere; they can’t just appear in thin air.

If the government were worth the money it taxed the people, it would know to control population on agricultural worlds with a passion.

All of that doesn’t even count a military, which would have to be several orders of magnitude larger than any MT nation’s, in order to keep rebellions down (everyone has rebellions) and patrol the borders.

And yet you fail to realize that this whole thing wouldn't even be a concern if you kept to your NS stats. People cause as many problems as they solve, meester.

In closing, arguing that you can control an empire with only billions is daft, if I do say so myself.

And saying that you control an empire of trillions and an army of billions is even worse. I should direct you to SM Stirling's Domination of the Draka Series. An interstellar empire with a strict limit of 10 million people per world (of course its only a small consideration, but it does see a lot of mention).

It would be possible if all your people were able to fly at the speed of sound, had built in warp engines in their pants, and could lift as much as a hundred men, but they don’t.

Teleportation, Jump gates, Automation. Are you even listening?

Now, go ahead and say I'm loosing my mind, like I know you will. :D

Nah, you're just wrong.

In some respects he is right, you can't really RP a proper space empire with several billion people because you would only have enough people to have a system or two populated at the most.

However, most Future Technology players don't RP a "space empire" as such, most of the people I deal with simply have perhaps a couple planets or are even limited to colonies on planets with their main nation still sharing earth. Those nations aren't godmoding.

Personally I'm sticking to nations with their nation statistics and lower... the idea of space empires turns me off as a bigger kind of game played by those who want to imagine themselves as the "Empire", the "Federation" or the "Imperium of Man", each with near unlimited resources and hundreds if not thousands of worlds to play with... I have just one world to play with and I have to share it. I would rather stick with those who also have relatively limited resources.

In many respects Einhauser is right. An space Empire with a small population is not realistic.

In order to have a vast interstellar Empire and massive space fleets one needs a huge population, billions per world. The only way to get around this is having absurd levels of technology, eg. matter-energy teleportation, replicators, extremely cheap and easy FTL, etc, etc.

To me it seems less far fetched that one should have a huge population rather then having magical technology that solves ever problem.

But then again, one might argue that the whole concept of massive space empires is crazy, as I do. That is why my Empire is so small (only several small colonies) and why it does not use wanky uber-tech. My people have not even discovered FTL yet (since it isn't feasible).

OOC: I would think that if one wanted to bump up their population by orders of magnitude then one would have to play with space empires that do the same.

Population multiplyers are not necessary.

You do not need trillions of people to run a star Empire, nor do you need trillions of people to mine minerals, unless they're doing it by hand?

In an FT setting you could use machinery, or drones, or robots or something instead of getting off over a massively bloated population that are busy scrabbling with their hands to extract minerals for you, instead of making a machine that does to work of a thousand people. FT allows possibilities, it does not allow wanked up populations to run a series of planets.

Methinks someone is inspired too much from the Imperium of Man.

I can see you do not wish to continue this convorsation, so unless asked to continue, this will be my last post on the subject, and it will also be to the point:

Using such a small population to control such a large empire is physically not possible.

Oh well. Just like about 75% of things in NS then, eh?

Without people, a galactic union is not possible.So? Is there any reason for a Galactic Union to exist?

Some argue that they can get by with only a token population in the billions.Millions, even *Plays at < NS stats*. Lesse. I'm on... Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Neptune (Of course, not the entire planet, just fractions of it and its satellites), am (Slowly) developing FTL and I... get by. What the hell would I need trillions for? DA has no reason to produce more resources than the high tripledigit millions/ low single digit billions of people DA has require.

All of that doesn’t even count a military, which would have to be several orders of magnitude larger than any MT nation’s, in order to keep rebellions down (everyone has rebellions) and patrol the borders.No. It would have to be smaller in its per capita value to free labour from unproductive guarding. throughout history, military size per capita (Population) ahs always decreased as technological prowess increased. Because of exactly this. Higher technologies, while allowing to produce specific products with less labour, require more labour to produce this very technologies.

Furthermore, there's a distinct lack of rebellions in nations like, say, the US, Japan, EU members, IRL. When you're running a currupt, economically imploded space empire where rebellions are likely, well... then your Empire's not possible, anyway.

In closing, arguing that you can control an empire with only billions is daft, if I do say so myself. It would be possible if all your people were able to fly at the speed of sound, had built in warp engines in their pants, and could lift as much as a hundred men, but they don’t.Conclusion: Galaxy-spanning empires with millions of worlds in NS are retarded. If you want to ignore everything the game gives you, go to invisionfree, make your own forum, and play with yourself.

Though to be fair... Apparently you believe that population is inherent to have an empire? Guess Cortez and Pizarro utterly failed in taking Latin America...

Oh, and did I mention that technologically advanced nations have the slowest population growth? In many of them, the population is actually decreasing, despite technological progress accelerating. So, for all intends and purposes, a space 'empire' would have a small and potentially decreasing population.

But no, we don't want to RP something that could make our wang look small, now, do we?

And really... claiming that RPing the actual populations NS gives us is a godmode... Should I cry or laugh?

The comment about a Galactic Union reminds me of a Phillip K Dick story; in it, the Terran's are constantly seeking the idealised first extra-galactic colony; apparently founded by this guy, Williamson. Now; Williamson's world is legend; a fabled utopia; and eventually, a ship finds it. They had all the technology that they came with; they could be patched into the galactic Net at any time they wished; but they didn't. They became an isolated, independant culture; with tribes and clans, like the Scot's or the Native Americans. They have battles, for material things, and for concepts like honor. And thus, they reject the hi-tech galaxy that the Galactic Union offers them.

They are destroyed; that unity remain; constant technological equality; equality without question, without deviation. Deviation must be destroyed; lest it spread war and death.

NS revolves around suspension of disbelief, but populations tend to be a tricky issue. I had someone who has a pop. of 12 million; and claimed to RP as being in his trillions, join one of my RPs; jumped headfirst in with 16,000 ships; and then blamed me for not reading his factbook....Thats taking things to extremes. If you want to say theres an abundant population that helps control your empire; fair enough. But you can't expect that to apply to military things, or things involving pop. By all means have an NPC pop to flesh out your empire; but don't expect to use it to buff yourself up

Population multiplyers are not necessary.

You do not need trillions of people to run a star Empire, nor do you need trillions of people to mine minerals, unless they're doing it by hand?

In an FT setting you could use machinery, or drones, or robots or something instead of getting off over a massively bloated population that are busy scrabbling with their hands to extract minerals for you, instead of making a machine that does to work of a thousand people. FT allows possibilities, it does not allow wanked up populations to run a series of planets.

Methinks someone is inspired too much from the Imperium of Man.

OOC: I suppose it comes down to what you envision a "star" empire to be. A few outposts here and there within the same solar system I don't think qualifies. Perhaps something like the Galactic Empire of Star Wars is what some folks think of when they see "star empire".

As far as the robots, well, unless your star empire is composed of robots, you will have a significant amount of organics in it. Yes, a machine can do the work of a thousand men, but do you see Earth's own population slowing down because of it? Besides, someone has to fix the robots. And you will need quite a few robots just to keep things going if you have a "star" empire. I mean, Artoo Detoo is pretty good, but he can't do it all.

edit: Gah. I don't think that automation is the panacea justifying a "star" empire of three people. It seems to me that it's treading close to the "no limits" fallacy.

Again, if NS players want to wank up their population (and we know that there is certainly far greater wank in other areas) to play star empire, then let them. I would say that game etiquette requires that those pop wank players tell a new player who wants in how they do it so that the newbie can abide by the same rules. Certainly a regular run-of-the-mill FT nation in NS would not be able to compete (unless, of couse, they have some kind of other uber wank to counteract the pop wank).

As far as the robots, well, unless your star empire is composed of robots, you will have a significant amount of organics in it. Yes, a machine can do the work of a thousand men, but do you see Earth's own population slowing down because of it? Besides, someone has to fix the robots. And you will need quite a few robots just to keep things going if you have a "star" empire. I mean, Artoo Detoo is pretty good, but he can't do it all.


Observe. I live in Australia, we have a population of a bit over 20 million. However, was in not for our close proximity to Asia, we'd be declining. Most of our population 'growth' comes from immigrants.

Working women don't want to have children, they're a waste of time. Sure, they may be wuvvable, but when they get to the age where they actually want them, they're to old to have them.

Look at India. HUGE population growth. However, it's a third-world country. People have children because they have no contraception, want their children to work for them, and because they don't know any better.

Now, look at FT. I control over 300 worlds. I roleplay with my NS tech. I mean, look at Earth. We're horribly crowded in most areas, with 20 billion. If we ever discover FTL travel, I seriously doubt that we'll be worrying, even in the slightest, about overcrowding. Read 3001, and you'll get some inkling of what I'm on about. We live like this because we have no choice.

Imagine, a universe, where, if you wanted your own planet, you could save up, buy a ship, some tecnology, and go live in solitude. It'd be like sailing off to an undiscovered island these days, and living there in peace.

You try to apply modern-day standards, and they simply aren't feasible. Imagine, a world where you can live in the finest luxury, huge houses, robotic pets to love, why have children? Why go through the messy, inefficient, pain of childbirth, simply to have 18 years of caring for the child? To be honest, how many people, right now, if they could have a child, without the cost, the pain, the schooling, and the troubles, as well as living in the lap of luxury, would? No-one. In fact, I RP slightly below my FT population. My people are so content (due to the fact I harvest naturally-growing food, and mine the finest materials out of many worlds), that only 1 in 4 females has a child, and one in 200 has more than one. I have to use genetically engineered clones to supplement my population, who are indoctrinated, and go off to war for my people.

If you lived in a society, where you had to work a mere 4-6 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, if you were in the hardest worker category, had your needs catered to, had an implant, allowing you to help control your emotions, had the ability to raise a child, without the process of embedding it in your own body, and had an army of loyal, brainwashed troopers, who carried your nation's integrity against damn near anyone, would you wish to have children? Probably not.

The more technology we get, the more one person can do. For instance, in Africa, people have many children. They need them, to help their community survive, to raise them up, to make more workers. In places like Switzerland, the US, Australia, the UK, and many more first-world countries, a single man can do the work of ten. Technology makes us efficient workers, why would more technology not make us more efficient?

Of course, we exploit the third-world countries to gain many things. In the future, machines will be willingly exploited, and will work tirelessly for us, factories now can churn out many, many things, what could the technology, thousands of years in the future, do for us?

You see, Ein, you see to be stuck in this era, but with more advanced technology. As technology advanced, so did our sociality, and we became more civilized, had more morals, did less work, for more production. Although it may seem like this particular era is one that will last forever, I have no doubt that the Romans thought that, too. The Greeks? They may've predicted flying chariots, but people, still with the same level of technology, just the ability to produce more advanced technology.

It is certainly not godmodding to RP a FT empire with a few billions, simply because we can't rule every tiny nuance of a galaxy. What you call realism is simply limiting us to the present social level, and present ability top produce.

I'm for using your NS population for milataries and what have you, but if you want to be somewhat realistic you need to look at what kind of planet you have.

If for example you have a planet like Star Wars' Coruscant which is entirely city, that planet alone needs thousands of trillions of people living on it. While a planet that is mostly agriculture can have only a few hundred thousand.

So for thematic puproses in an RP a high population for FT empires is downright necessary.

Conclusion: Galaxy-spanning empires with millions of worlds in NS are retarded.

Then don't start one and shut the fuck up about people who like them.

HT: Earth has about 6 or 7 billion, not twenty.

Xess: 1000 trillion people will weigh more than the planet itself! Perhaps you meant billions?

Xess: 1000 trillion people will weigh more than the planet itself! Perhaps you meant billions?

No, no I didn't. And 1000 trillion people, with an average mass of 80kg per person, will have about .000008% of the planet's mass. You may want to check your calculator.

I think I can stand up to the big boys now, here's my take on it:

POPULATION DOESN'T HAVE TO INCLUDE AUTOMATION!

This is the major thing with FT nations. Automation and the people are so disproportionate that literally a SINGLE man could control a whole army. In the modern era, we can use machines for recon and even light attack without endangering anyone. In the future this will be ALL upped so the one person will hold more work power then say 10-100 people now. Most FT nations don't take automation to the next level anyways to MAKE it fair.

Here's what I think, if you have no droids, robots...etc or whatever automation you CAN up your levels if people support it, but do note your population is much larger and even with a doubling of population the factors of trouble you will have is expotenial. KEEP THAT IN MIND!

A well run non-population multiplied nation should ALWAYS be able to kick the butts of the multiplied population nation because of the very principle stated above. Automation fixes these and so reduces EVERYTHING needed to maintain and empire.

Vrak's 'counter-wank' need not exist, for the fundamental flaw is BUILT into a non-automised nation. A droid army will advance much faster, be built, combat-ready and delivered faster then a non-automised nation. Using robotic targeting and less supplies needed to do a task a military can advance much faster and require less to do so. Having a higher population means as you destroy more of 'pop-wankers' ships and fighters will cause moral to go down sharply and the effectiveness wane. A single, active and well laid force can destroy ten fleets of inferior-controlled ships by automation! They paid a high cost for that 'wank' and you have a better way to destroy it with cheap, effective cold steel.

Here's how I do it. I have my main nation & 3 puppets. In regular NS I use the population of all four. For E2 and logistics, military size, etc. I use my main nation. This means that with all four I have a population of 10B, however my military was made for a nation in the order of 4.34B or whatever my main nation is (i.e. the one I post with). So yes I up it for regular NS but I do not use those figures to change anything other than populace. Land area does not change; nor does military.