NationStates Jolt Archive

I was wondering what people would think if I Rped Hogsweat as it was before the delete, except with a different posting puppet (probably this one)
I know Whittier did it and he was widely ignored but I'm wondering what people would think if I did it.
[edit: poll coming soon]
[edit2: Yeah, I would be adding the population of "Hogsweatia" onto 4.545 billion. I will make (Realistic, obviously not 100% defense) budgets and stats up from approximate GDPs of nations of similar size and minus 8 trillion~ (same as it was) off, counting for innefficiency, miscalc, and the like.

Thanks for the positive feedback.]

Problem is, how will you continue to expand your population? Just use your old population and add it to your puppet's? Regardless, go ahead.

I'd be fine with it; you're using what is rightfully yours. Seeing as the things you created as Hogsweat would be transferred, it makes sense to use your old population.

I was wondering what people would think if I Rped Hogsweat as it was before the delete, except with a different posting puppet (probably this one)
I know Whittier did it and he was widely ignored but I'm wondering what people would think if I did it.
[edit: poll coming soon]
I support this action completely. I would be happy to let you roleplay with the puppet and happy to roleplay with you, given the circumstances - it's especially OK because you didn't deserve deletion in my humble opinion. I assume you have information for your budgets and such pre-deletion?

I say you should do it.

Yeah, I would be adding the population of "Hogsweatia" onto 4.545 billion. I will make (Realistic, not 100% defense) budgets and stats up from approximate GDPs of nations of similar size and minus 8 trillion~ (same as it was) off, counting for innefficiency, miscalc, and the like.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

I think it'd be a good idea to use your old population and add to it with the puppet's population. I'd support the decision.

I've got to be perfectly honest here. Regardless of whether I feel a deletion is justified, I consider anyone attempting to RP with their pre-deat population to be Godmoding.

I realise that this case presents some circumstances that weren't present in the previous cases (such as Whittier's or Kahta's), but in both cases, I wouldn't recognise their attempts to RP as their old populations. I can't in good conscience accept it here.

As long as the person he is RPing against or with doesn't mind... that is all that is needed.

[/snip]
Fair enough. This poll is to see who would accept it (which is why it's public) so, I am still to decide whether I would or not.

I've got to be perfectly honest here. Regardless of whether I feel a deletion is justified, I consider anyone attempting to RP with their pre-deat population to be Godmoding.

I realise that this case presents some circumstances that weren't present in the previous cases (such as Whittier's or Kahta's), but in both cases, I wouldn't recognise their attempts to RP as their old populations. I can't in good conscience accept it here.


True enough. However, Hogsweat, I think that you could carry on with the 'storyline' of Hogsweat, if you will. For example, Hogsweatia would be formed of survivors of the nuclear blast, including any citizenry that survived, whether at home, or those that were abroad, any armed personnel abroad, et cetera. With a population of 4.5 billion it would be believable that you had a surviving population of thirty million to one hundred million [or whatever Hogsweatia has].

Furthermore, would be an extremely interesting role play to administer, and I for one, would love to be part of it if its the route you take.

As long as the person he is RPing against or with doesn't mind... that is all that is needed.

Unfortunately, Sarzonia and Hogsweat are part of the same roleplaying group, so Sarzonia not accepting it would influence Praetonia not accepting, which would then push this notion down the drain.

True enough. However, Hogsweat, I think that you could carry on with the 'storyline' of Hogsweat, if you will. For example, Hogsweatia would be formed of survivors of the nuclear blast, including any citizenry that survived, whether at home, or those that were abroad, any armed personnel abroad, et cetera. With a population of 4.5 billion it would be believable that you had a surviving population of thirty million to one hundred million [or whatever Hogsweatia has].

Furthermore, would be an extremely interesting role play to administer, and I for one, would love to be part of it if its the route you take.

I have the Colonies of Cape Town, Chukraine, South Haven Outpost, total population 110 million. These places did not die in the nuclear blast (cos they are thousands of km away, lol) so consequently if this notion dies then I will RP as that. I have 1 1/2 pages of MS word dedicated to it already :)

I have the Colonies of Cape Town, Chukraine, South Haven Outpost, total population 110 million. These places did not die in the nuclear blast (cos they are thousands of km away, lol) so consequently if this notion dies then I will RP as that. I have 1 1/2 pages of MS word dedicated to it already :)


Perhaps I could be included, something humanitarian. If I ever get around to talking to Haven [as Gerfaanlich] I might have a trading outpost, or a small territory in Haven [of course, Haven has to agree to it], so I actively participate in the post-nuclear Hogsweat world.

I think we shouldn't really bother with the whole nation thing because the only point of this forum is to have fun making RP's and why should we RP the same nation of a different website

Unfortunately, Sarzonia and Hogsweat are part of the same roleplaying group, so Sarzonia not accepting it would influence Praetonia not accepting, which would then push this notion down the drain.Not necessarily. He might accept Hogsweat's RPing as his old population. That doesn't mean I have to.

I don't think it would be improper for you to use your old national statistics for RPing. That said, you do have to be careful not to exagerate anything, which will be both a severe and sublte temptation. Also, I would personally consider it alot more interesting if you somehow incorporated the deletion of your old nation into an RP. imho

No objection here from me. Use your old stats. I accidentaly voted the wrong way on the poll since I didn't read the question. I am all for you continuing as before.

Since resurrecting Hogsweat seems impossible now, I'd love to see you back here, no matter what you do. You've got my support on this idea.

Excellent.

I certainly wouldn't mind, myself, partly because I consider the deletion a bit unfair, or at least inconsistent with a number of previous mod rulings.

Budget (http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/6660/idealbudget1cv.png)
This is what I would use, as there is no way to retrieve Hogsweat's stats, adding approximately 2 tn a month to account for growth.
Godmoddy? Stupid? Done a calculation wrong? Feedback please.

I wouldn't ignore you, Hogsweat, you've earned enough respect from me for me to be pissy about your population and what you can and can't do. I never really cared that much about population anyways with exception to new people nations trying to go from 5 million to world military power in a day. You've got history and I would rather Hogsweat was potentially a threat like always with it's hatred towards my politicians (it takes time to develope a IC relationship like ours).

What people don't always realise with godmoding is that it's perfectly acceptable providing that you aren't forcing it on to anyone... you can have a huge population if everyone you RP with agrees that you have a huge population. I admit it can be awkward as there will always be those who will be pedantic about it (hell, I'll be pedantic about it if I don't think someone deserves it) but I'm fairly sure the majority of people you RP with regularly are prepared to make an exception.

Just don't force it on people and remember to point it out when people try to force RPs on you, if they don't like it then they don't get to declare war on you but they should know about it to avoid confusion.

So yeah, I'm cool with it. So long as you don't go all n00b on me... :p

Budget (http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/6660/idealbudget1cv.png)
This is what I would use, as there is no way to retrieve Hogsweat's stats, adding approximately 2 tn a month to account for growth.
Godmoddy? Stupid? Done a calculation wrong? Feedback please.
Bear in mind the difference between your GDP and your national budget. I believe there's a distinction.

Absolutely not. This is untenable and unacceptable. Well if everyone who was deleted for breaking the rules decided to roleplay with their old population, then what on Earth is the point in them?

Why not just invite FWS back into our midst’s and tell him he can roleplay with his expanded population? Why are you, Hogsweat any different from other rule breakers?

Like it or not restarting from scratch is the punishment for breaking the rules, and you, no matter how you perceive it, did break them.

I will not accept your current population, after all you did Icly, exterminate it no?

Budget (http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/6660/idealbudget1cv.png)
This is what I would use, as there is no way to retrieve Hogsweat's stats, adding approximately 2 tn a month to account for growth.
Godmoddy? Stupid? Done a calculation wrong? Feedback please.

How about just not using a budget calulator? I gave up on them ages ago as they just promote numberwanking. Sure they are helpful as a way of getting an idea of economical strength, but beyond that I would rather it wasn't used as a way of working out what you can buy from others... it rarely matters that much at our size we can mostly do what we like so long as it's reasonable.

Hogsweat, if you wish to use actual old information, here's your info from NSTracker that could be useful:
Budget Percentages (http://nstracker.retrogade.com/graph.php?nation=hogsweat&viewchart=budget)
Budget Total (http://nstracker.retrogade.com/graph.php?nation=hogsweat&viewchart=budtot)
GDP (http://nstracker.retrogade.com/graph.php?nation=hogsweat&viewchart=gdp)
You could potentially add all your final stats onto Hogsweatia unless the two or three objections cause too much problems

Why not just invite FWS back into our midst’s and tell him he can roleplay with his expanded population? Why are you, Hogsweat any different from other rule breakers?

Because FWS didn't earn our respect... if you want to ignore this expanded population then feel free, it really doesn't matter providing he's got enough people to RP with who are prepared to accept his old population. In truth the figures hardly even matter that much, I just want to RP with the nation that's earned my OOC respect and my IC dislike.

Deletion isn't really about reducing a player down to a lower population, it's just a fortunate (or unfortunate depending on your POV) side effect. The whole idea of godmodding only applies if you try and force your godmode on to someone, in which case they can ignore it. Thats how Godmode/Ignore works, you can't get banned for godmode, it's just there to remind people they don't have to put up with stupid shit.

Not sure how much my input is wanted, given that I've...not been popular of late. (I may as well reiterate that I NEVER SAID I SUPPORTED YOUR DELETION.) Anyway, I think I'm unlikely to RP with you, but if I were to, I wouldn't object to your using a larger population, if only because I also don't RP my NS pop (although I go the other way). (No not like that.)

Have you tried asking around about puppets? I know it's extremely unlikely you'll find someone with the same economy etc. as Hogsweat, or even anyone willing to give up a 4.5 billion nation, but I have seen requests for 2-3 billion unused puppets be met. Perhaps sticking an advert in the Gameplay forum, or asking around the feeders, might at least elicit some response. I'd assumed you would retcon the nuclear explosion were you to keep RPing: if so, though, I'm sure most people would be accommodating. (After all, this fuss seems to be as much about you leaving as anything else...they'd hardly want to drive you away again.)

Unified Sith, if you don't like it, ignore it. However, as far as I'm concerned, the majority of the people here are accepting Hogsweat's stance on the issue.

Absolutely not. This is untenable and unacceptable. Well if everyone who was deleted for breaking the rules decided to roleplay with their old population, then what on Earth is the point in them?

Why not just invite FWS back into our midst’s and tell him he can roleplay with his expanded population? Why are you, Hogsweat any different from other rule breakers?

Like it or not restarting from scratch is the punishment for breaking the rules, and you, no matter how you perceive it, did break them.

I will not accept your current population, after all you did Icly, exterminate it no?
Sith I think I speak for 90% of the RP community here when I say STFU. Hogsweat is a great RPer who has earned the respect of all of us. Whether you were IC allies with him or not, you have to respect the quality RPs he has brought to this game. He is an asset to the II board and it would be a tragedy for him to disappear. Whether or not you believe he was justly deleted is beside the point here. Hogsweat is a reputable person who deserves respect.

Seeing as Hogsweat hasn't had a history of godmoding, I see this as genuine, and I would accept it.

OOC friendships? Not very IC now is it? This roleplay environment which we exist in is based on your actual nation. If someone starts a six million nation tomorrow and has friends that like him, can we than accept his claims of being eight billion people large, as I do believe that’s what you’re suggesting?

Just because you like the player OOCly, does not mean that he is an exception. You respect Hogsewat for his roleplay, well, let him roleplay with his smaller nation, after all, stats don’t matter, do they?

Unified Sith, if you don't like it, ignore it. However, as far as I'm concerned, the majority of the people here are accepting Hogsweat's stance on the issue.You're missing the point a bit Omz.

Even if the majority of players accepts Hogsweat RPing with his pre-deat population, not everyone can or will accept it. Does that mean I'll treat him like some n00b with a 20 million population country and think I'll smash him about if I make a heel turn? No. I don't play like that.

The fact remains he was deleted whether I like it or not and he's not coming back as Hogsweat. I can't adopt a double-standard of RPing with him as if nothing happened when I refuse to do that with other players. That's why I voted the way I did and I'll stand by my vote as recorded.

I'd accet it but I do think that macs idea sounds far mroe interesting.

Sith I think I speak for 90% of the RP community here when I say STFU. Hogsweat is a great RPer who has earned the respect of all of us. Whether you were IC allies with him or not, you have to respect the quality RPs he has brought to this game. He is an asset to the II board and it would be a tragedy for him to disappear. Whether or not you believe he was justly deleted is beside the point here. Hogsweat is a reputable person who deserves respect.

I don't have much input with MT anyways, so I'm not sure if my opinion matters; but I don't really care. Hogsweat could do it if he wanted, with whoever would accept it. However; he was deleted for a reason. Better that he have his nation brought back than do this.

If he can be allowed to do this, what about others? Waht about them and their requests to RP as their old pop? It cannot simply be a matter of respect; or contributions; its setting a double standard. IDF; you can think you represent any number of the RP community; it doesn't give you the right to tell someone whos opinion is equally valid to shut up. If that were the case; and this were a thread of happy flowers and cotton candy to support and praise Hogsweat; there would be no negative aspects on the poll. Last I checked, people were free to express their opinions.

It is tragic and unjust what happened; but to be fair, creating a double standard, and making exceptions won't help; it will hinder. Think of all the other RPers who've been deleted and had to start from scratch. Just because your not best buds with them, does that give you the right to deny them their old pops?

OOC friendships? Not very IC now is it? This roleplay environment which we exist in is based on your actual nation. If someone starts a six million nation tomorrow and has friends that like him, can we than accept his claims of being eight billion people large, as I do believe that’s what you’re suggesting?

Just because you like the player OOCly, does not mean that he is an exception. You respect Hogsewat for his roleplay, well, let him roleplay with his smaller nation, after all, stats don’t matter, do they?
Complaining about accepting population stats is pretty hypocritical coming from a guy who used a Feb 2003 puppet, Bob-Bob was it?, so he could RP with a larger population.

Complaining about accepting population stats is pretty hipocritical coming from a guy who used a Feb 2003 puppet, Bob-Bob was it?, so he could RP with a larger population.
Good point

Sith I think I speak for 90% of the RP community here when I say STFU.Don't presume you speak for anyone besides yourself please.

If you notice, I also voted not to accept Hogsweat's proposal to RP as his old population. That's a decision I'm not prepared to turn back on and I wouldn't even if I were the only player who felt that way. He broke a rule and got deleted whether I like the way the rule was interpreted and enforced or not. If Sarzonia got deleted today, I'd have to RP with another country that has a smaller population regardless of whether I feel that deletion was justified.

Don't presume you speak for anyone besides yourself please.

If you notice, I also voted not to accept Hogsweat's proposal to RP as his old population. That's a decision I'm not prepared to turn back on and I wouldn't even if I were the only player who felt that way. He broke a rule and got deleted whether I like the way the rule was interpreted and enforced or not. If Sarzonia got deleted today, I'd have to RP with another country that has a smaller population regardless of whether I feel that deletion was justified.

Good point, however if people that want to RP with hogsweat, then they can allow him to have his old population....

Just because I disagree with you and some of your friends does not make my opinion any less valid than your own. Hogsweat did bring quality writing to the Nationstates board, but the last time I checked so did FWS?

FWS’s writing was very good, like it or not, it was of a high quality, above most of us in the international forum. Sure it was biased towards his own political beliefs, but aren’t we all?

Just because Hogsweat is very popular on the forums, does that mean he is an exception, are we now into setting double standards based on popularity, is such a rule fair to the rest of the game, where, they may not be the most popular, but are in fact fantastic writers?

Does this then mean, that whoever asks to be recognised for their past deleted nations population, must now be affirmed because they are “respected” by the “entire” game? Utter nonsense.

Such a consensus would be unfair and bias towards the rest of the players.

And lets see, Bob-Bob was not deleted for breaking the rules was it? In fact it’s a nation that was handed to me by a friend Jordaxia, and last time I checked I only had one modern tech nation which is Bob-Bob. Puppets are an accepted medium in this game and so are multiple nations, within reason of course. I suggest you stop clutching at straws and accept the reality of Hogsweat starting from scratch.

I would say that it isnt godmodding. Hogsweat wasnt deleted for any forum offence or any offence in any way involving II, so I dont see any reason for him to be peanalised for that RP-wise. If other people agree I'll probably RP here again.

At the end of the day, Bob-Bob, ignore is a means by which the community polices itself. This is freeform RP, but if you do stuff people dont like, you get ignored and so essentially you cant do that because you will be talking to yourself. Does this have anything to do with NS rules at all? No. Does it have anything to do with popular opinion? Entirely. If people choose to make an exception, an exception can be made. FWS was IP banned. DA was ignored because, for whatever reason, people didnt like DA. Ditto for Whittier, Whittier- and Whittier--.

I think this conversation is pretty much dead already. Everyone who wants to let him RP his old pop can, and everyone who doesn't... don't RP with him...

I think this conversation is pretty much dead already. Everyone who wants to let him RP his old pop can, and everyone who doesn't... don't RP with him...Then I can't RP with him in that case. Therein lies the problem with absolutism.

I would say that it isnt godmodding. Hogsweat wasnt deleted for any forum offence or any offence in any way involving II, so I dont see any reason for him to be peanalised for that RP-wise. If other people agree I'll probably RP here again.
Right now, you're in the majority. If we exclude Hogsweat's own votes and make him vote for himself, we get a 77% majority - without his votes it is 74%. In general though, we're the majority. So, come back and RP here ;)

You know, with all the emotion going on here your heart says 'yes', let him play with his previous population. But still, a deletion is a deletion no matter how you look at it. To be honest, I voted yes. By no means it is something I encourage to do for everyone's deletion. You see, I am being a bit unfair here. On one hand I say, no he's deleted and that the way he's gotta play the game from now on, as a small nation. Or point two, one can say to let him play like that because he's a) in a war b) has many large enemies c) small compensation.

However, I did not reason like I explained in point two. The deletion is justified like I have said many, many times before. See my post in Pacitalia's (locked) thread in moderation, there you see my opinion on this. Because I rarely play with Hogsweat and only know each other off msn, I have no beef with this. I rarely deal with him, and the only things between us are diplomatic in nature, where a population does not matter in the slightest way. If there's war between me and him, things are different. I wouldn't recognize it, not a chance. I mean, he has many powerful allies and his navy is strong. And don't tell me no one has a puppet left for him which is over 1 billion strong.

OOC friendships? Not very IC now is it? This roleplay environment which we exist in is based on your actual nation. If someone starts a six million nation tomorrow and has friends that like him, can we than accept his claims of being eight billion people large, as I do believe that’s what you’re suggesting?

I didn't think you made a point of ignoring the bits you don't like, but I do believe I said that Hogsweat had earned my respect... it's not the same as him being a OOC friend, to be honest I doubt he thinks of me as a OOC friend, but he's worked to make Hogsweat what it was, from a small time genocidal evil nation to a respected player on the Nationstates scene. His deletion wasn't something pathetic like racism or the like, it was an unfortunate misunderstanding of the gameplay rules while running a region. New guys don't have history, they have to build respect.

The others and myself are content to let him continue like he always did... he doesn't have to have the population, thats just details, but perhaps you are right... the kind of person who cares about his population when playing against him probably wouldn't accept his old population and would tell him how his armed forces are unrealistic, so it doesn't matter that much.

If you don't want to accept it him RPing as he was, even though he's playing with a new nation then thats your choice, I just want him to know that nothing has changed between us.

How about just not using a budget calulator? I gave up on them ages ago as they just promote numberwanking. Sure they are helpful as a way of getting an idea of economical strength, but beyond that I would rather it wasn't used as a way of working out what you can buy from others... it rarely matters that much at our size we can mostly do what we like so long as it's reasonable.
I know. The stats I use to RP are limited to the following:

UN Index: Anarchy
Civil Rights: Excessive
Economy: Good
Political Freedoms: Widely Abused

...And that's really all I need. I've always RPed with a smaller population because I started my first RP when I had 78 million citizens and I wasn't about to change it every single day, and hope people believed it. Likewise, I find 86% tax to be excessive and unrealistic in an anarchic state such as my own, although I'll accept taxes higher than that in a RP.

Yes

get a new name though, its a bit kind of n00by - oh and you will have to compensate for your bloody big nuclear explosion

Then I can't RP with him in that case. Therein lies the problem with absolutism.

Not wanting to be an ass about this, but aren't you leaving? I know that it's a ass for Hogsweat to RP his old population because some people don't accept it and they will have to ignore him... but it doesn't actually affect you if you aren't playing anymore.

Either that or people start making changes to their sigs.

After all, the majority counts. So far, the "No" vote has been at a healthy 71 percent.

Actually it's more than that. I accidentally selected the wrong option and said I'd have a problem with it. So that makes it more like 80%.

Actually it's more than that. I accidentally selected the wrong option and said I'd have a problem with it. So that makes it more like 80%.
Yeah the poll is kinda confusing. I almost did what you did.

Not wanting to be an ass about this, but aren't you leaving? I know that it's a ass for Hogsweat to RP his old population because some people don't accept it and they will have to ignore him... but it doesn't actually affect you if you aren't playing anymore.I said if Praetonia's leaving I'm leaving, but then I decided later that I was going to stick around, especially in light of the fact that I'd been told Praetonia was also coming back.

I'm going to step out on a limb and say that I agree with both sides to this arguement. (WHAT!?:eek: )

Pros to this: Well its always a cold day in hell when you find your nation deleted after putting a lot of hard work into it. Especially if you lose your temper when on the internet and say bad things about the people (no names being mentioned...). However, from what I remember from the past rps and other posts made by Hogsweat were indeed very well written and he did also make massive contributions to helping new NS players and such.

Cons: Sarzonia, Unified Sith, and Chronosia are all right. You must not allow for someone, no matter how much effort or devotion they put forth into NS, be given a higher standard above that of other equally devoted players just because the one got his account deleted. ExampleIts like having your best friend for president: you commit murder, but your friends bails you out and pardons you; then another guy murders and the president has him hanged. True the phsycological differences are there between this and murder, however the basis of it is the same. If anything I would say Euroslavia is about the most impartial person to judge on this.

Final Answer: So, how to find away to appease both sides of this arguement? Well Jolt or the moderators of NS usually I think have a program that will increase the population of a country by incriments every day correct? (or they have someone doing it manually, but thats a bit too much) So, how about raising Hogsweats new country to say something near 500 mil? A nice round number that is decent enough to get him back on his feat and yet at the same time give him the challenge of getting back up to the level he was at. I am not sure if this is feasible or possible, but its a simple salution to end this endless argueing and bickering over the demise of Hogsweat and his population.

The problem is taht since there are both pros and cons in the issue, for this case it's best to depend on the majority, and see what they think. Since Hogsweat did earn the respect that he deserved, there's little reason for him not to regain his status that was shamefully lost It's not as if he's a godmodder or has committed serious offenses on the forum - what he committed was just an accidental misjudgement that was judged as a violation of the gameplay rules by the mods. Gameplay, not forum.

That will never happen Threshia. It's too helpful, and 500 million is still pretty useless. Personally, I see nothing wrong with inconsistency, so long as you have a good reason for it. DA was a flamer, as was Whittier. This... what has happened to hogsweat... this is just stupid.

ExampleIts like having your best friend for president: you commit murder, but your friends bails you out and pardons you; then another guy murders and the president has him hanged.

You make a good point - but the problem is that life isn't completely fair. And the above example does happen. I am sorry to say that not everyone in the world is equal, no matter how much we think it is true...

You make a good point - but the problem is that life isn't completely fair. And the above example does happen. I am sorry to say that not everyone in the world is equal, no matter how much we think it is true...

Which is why I am gonna conquer the world one day and make it that way...:D

Or I could trade him one of my innumerable puppets.

Could I interest you in a Corporate Police State, "Frightening" economy, 0% tax, 48% defense spending, population 2.536 billion, no past forum history, non-UN member, $93 trillion GDP..... damn it, I want some of those stats.... :p (j/k)

The problem is that since there are both pros and cons in the issue, for this case it's best to depend on the majority, and see what they think. Since Hogsweat did earn the respect that he deserved, there's little reason for him not to regain his status that was shamefully lost. It's not as if he's a godmodder or has committed serious offenses on the forum - what he committed was just an accidental misjudgement that was judged as a violation of the gameplay rules by the mods. Gameplay, not forum.

Then are the forum moderators at fault? I've heard enough about what people have been shoveling their way about this...I dunno really, I was simply offering my opinionated possible salution.

Or I could trade him one of my innumerable puppets.

Could I interest you in a Corporate Police State, "Frightening" economy, 0% tax, 48% defense spending, population 2.536 billion, no past forum history, non-UN member, $93 trillion GDP..... damn it, I want some of those stats.... :p (j/k)
I offered him a puppet but he says he wants to RP as Hogsweat. I dont see why he shouldnt be allowed to when he could easily (as you say) obtain a puppet and continue to RP the same type of state but with a different name. It's just a waste of time to force him to do otherwise.

Then are the forum moderators at fault?
I did not say that anywhere, now, did I?

To address the actual question, it's no one's fault, and the mods had done what they felt they had to. But that is still irrelevant - in this case, it all depends on the majority. And Hogsweat has already earned the respect that made the majority sway towards the direction of saying "yes" to him using his old population.

EDIT: As a note, I also have multiple puppets with populations that are (coincidentally) either the same or greater than Hogsweat's. However, it is still up to Hogsweat himself as to whether accept or not.

I don't know if Czardas is being serious, but the point is a serious one. Even if people are content to allow Hogsweat to use an inflated population, if he were to find a reasonably big puppet, it would perhaps win over some others, who might at least concede to RP with his population as being that of the puppet's. I've seen people pick up 2-3 billion size puppets before, although they won't necessarily have the same stats as Hogsweat.
It could be serious. I don't have much more use for that puppet anymore. I RPed a bit with it offsite, with people who no longer exist/won't remember. It's my largest existing puppet, although I have 5-6 others with populations of over 1 billion...

I did not say that anywhere, now, did I?

To address the actual question, it's no one's fault, and the mods had done what they felt they had to. But that is still irrelevant - in this case, it all depends on the majority. And Hogsweat has already earned the respect that made the majority sway towards the direction of saying "yes" to him using his old population.

EDIT: As a note, I also have multiple puppets with populations that are (coincidentally) either the same or greater than Hogsweat's. However, it is still up to Hogsweat himself as to whether accept or not.

Nor did I imply you did, now, did I?

41 people is not a majority when you consider that over 800,000 nations (possible that many people, but then people do create puppets) in NS. If anything this thing should be done through channels. Hogsweat should have some sort of chance to appeal to the Mods and then let a committee of them make a final decision based upon their reactions and thoughts and those of Hogsweats fellow RP'ers.

I offered him a puppet but he says he wants to RP as Hogsweat. I dont see why he shouldnt be allowed to when he could easily (as you say) obtain a puppet and continue to RP the same type of state but with a different name. It's just a waste of time to force him to do otherwise.
Ah, ok, If he doesn't want a puppet, consider that post a joke.

41 people is not a majority when you consider that over 800,000 nations (possible that many people, but then people do create puppets) in NS. If anything this thing should be done through channels. Hogsweat should have some sort of chance to appeal to the Mods and then let a committee of them make a final decision based upon their reactions and thoughts and those of Hogsweats fellow RP'ers.The flaw with that is that is that there are a total of 111,443 nations in NationStates as of 3:23 p.m. EDT. There's no way that we're going to get a consensus of all 111,443 or even the players who control all 111,443. Besides that, not all of those nations RP and I wager that several 3-billion plus nations may not even know the slightest bit about RPing on these fora.

Surveys aren't able to get the views of everyone in a country or in a local area; they're done to get a representative snapshot of what the prevailing opinion is of the population they're studying. It certainly appears that a rather significant portion of the RP community would accept Hogsweat RPing under his old population. However, that doesn't mean everyone has to.

Frankly, I don't really see why it matters that much anyways... the only issue Hogsweat actually has is that he can't force people to accept his old statistics, if Sarzonia and others don't want to recognise him as being the same as he was before then that's their choice as players.

Godmode and ignore have always been about the players agreeing what is acceptable for them and what isn't... how many players accept Planet Killers? I can tell you this much, I don't and the vast majority of people laugh at the idea, but that doesn't mean people can't use them. How many people play space empires? It doesn't hurt anyone so long as it's not forced on people, this is why I have told people in the past that they are fully within their right to ignore pretty much anything based on their view.

We aren't saying everyone has to accept it... NS has never been about that and if you accept BS 'rules' like "You need to have a population of 100 million to have nuclear weapons" just because everyone else beleives it then you're thinking about it in the wrong way.

I voted to allow you to kepp your old pop but now i think about it more it would be better and more intresting to carry on from where you left off after the nukes going off.

I don't know if Czardas is being serious, but the point is a serious one. Even if people are content to allow Hogsweat to use an inflated population, if he were to find a reasonably big puppet, it would perhaps win over some others, who might at least concede to RP with his population as being that of the puppet's. I've seen people pick up 2-3 billion size puppets before, although they won't necessarily have the same stats as Hogsweat.
If you look at the poll, about 80% (when you count know mis-votes) of people are in favour of him using his old population anyway without a puppet, so Im not sure if your wording is quite accurate. Still, the thought is appreciated.

Nor did I imply you did, now, did I?

41 people is not a majority when you consider that over 800,000 nations (possible that many people, but then people do create puppets) in NS. If anything this thing should be done through channels. Hogsweat should have some sort of chance to appeal to the Mods and then let a committee of them make a final decision based upon their reactions and thoughts and those of Hogsweats fellow RP'ers.

Where do you get 800,000 from (seriously, this is not an attack), because on NS it says 111,451 nations...

Also the other 799,959 nations wouldn't matter unless they wanted to RP with him...

It certainly appears that a rather significant portion of the RP community would accept Hogsweat RPing under his old population. However, that doesn't mean everyone has to.

I do believe that has been the point everyone has been making towards you... Many people are willing to accept his old population and stats, if you don't want to... than dont!

I was referring to the fact that a few 'important' RPers were still holding out. I would have thought they'd be a lot more inclined to RP with him if he had a 3 billion puppet than a 500 million one. But if he doesn't want a puppet, then it's all just hot air anyway. To repeat: I doubt I would cross RP paths with him, but I would harbour no special objection. This is one of those times when it is a special case.

Majority doesn't matter here... even if 100'000 players said that you shouldn't be allowed to have nuclear weapons before the one hundred million population it would still be little more then a guideline and those who wish to ignore their guideline would be well within their right... providing they understand those 100'000 people are likely to ignore them.

No, majority isn't the issue here, it's whether there is a big enough pool of people who are willing to accept his old population for him to settle down back into his old RPing habits. You can't force people to accept his old population, even if all of II agrees it's ok, this is the risk he runs... however, at the same time we all run that risk by playing how we play, some people may ignore me because I am not completely modern technology, some people may ignore me because they just don't like me and I ignore people because I may feel I simply can't deal with them or that they don't fit on in my view of nationstates. Alot of people ignore for different reasons so all that really matters here is if Hogsweat thinks he will be able to continue or if he'll have to start over so that he won't have to deal with those who won't make an acception.

I would accept your population... I've never RPed with you, and given the tech... difference between us that seems unlikely... but I've never listened to populations, only RP skill. To me it seems unfair that someone who joins today will be permanently handicapped compared to me simply because I stumbled on the website further back in time.

Where do you get 800,000 from (seriously, this is not an attack), because on NS it says 111,451 nations...

Also the other 799,959 nations wouldn't matter unless they wanted to RP with him...

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

Top right corner, in italics. I took this to be the number of players on NS, but then I might be wrong, which my left side of my brain says: yes your worng you numbskull! So end of story. I was mearly saying that the majority is not the people who actually voted. And I didn't mean to make it sound like an attack or react to a feeling of being attacked. Just imagine a monotone voice when you read my posts and you will see how neutral it is. :D

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

Top right corner, in italics. I took this to be the number of players on NS, but then I might be wrong, which my left side of my brain says: yes your worng you numbskull! So end of story. I was mearly saying that the majority is not the people who actually voted. And I didn't mean to make it sound like an attack or react to a feeling of being attacked. Just imagine a monotone voice when you read my posts and you will see how neutral it is. :D

Yeh... I still dont see what number you are looking at, but no matter...

It says: Over 1,300,000 nations served!

Over 1.3 million accounts made.

Only a few thousand players in NationStates though. Most of them are puppets.

It says: Over 1,300,000 nations served!

Yeh I see what you mean. When I clicked the link it took my to my nation homepage because I was already logged in.

1.3 Million Served means a total of 1.3 million nations have been created since the beginning. 1.2 Million of them have been deleted...

Approximately 1/8 of all players use the forum. There are about 4000 people on the forum. That means about 32,000 individual players, controlling ~108,000-120,000 nations. Makes sense. Each person controls about 3.78 nations (most have one, some have up to 540).

I'd say go ahead actually.

I don't really give a damn either way on the pop issue, but I really like Mac's idea of incorporating Hogsweat's demise into future RPs. I would interested in reading those.:)

how about you incorporate your story of Hogsweats fall into my story I could use a nuclear holocaust as an excuse to block out the Sun :D

don't worry I'm still working on it

I'm not quite sure how I should go about this. One the one hand, I want my old pop back, my old military and my old nation, it's culture, heritage, and traditions. On the other hand, the other scenario is extremely promising, and I HAVE invested time into writing on the other one (hard considering i have permanent writers block and an English essay)
I'm still thinking on it. Thanks for all the votes, yes or no, very helpful.

This has been propably many times already, but just in case I must say it makes you to look pertty weird if you, after that MY COUNTRY BLASTED AWAY BY NUKE ACCIDENT-thread, which was noticed and read by quite many people, would simply jump over that and start to play again as the old Hogsweat, like that all never happened. I'd vote for Make a new nation with the same name (=Hogsweatia) and play like those were the survivors.

And if you don't want to play as small and weak nation, you can always use those puppet-colonias you mentioned in some other thread, if I remember correctly.

Anyways, up to you and the one you RP with. I wouldn't dare to ignore you though.

I only know Hogsweat from his (brief) activity period on Earth II, but if I may:

I think think there are two central points that we have to consider:

(1) Hogsweat put up a poll, which I think is the sensible thing to do in this situation. Instead of forcing it upon us, he's asking us if this is okay, and while ultimately it's still a judgement call (because the poll isn't exactly indicative of the whole NS community), it's still a lot better than Hogsweat saying "I'm just going to do it anyway."

(2) Stats are only as valid as the individual RolePlayers' acceptance of them. Thus, if the other RPer(s) agree with the move, Hogsweat should be able to use his old stats. However, I admit this is a bit of a "case-by-case" scenario. The older nations (such as myself) know Hogsweat and his old stats and thus have something to recognize, but the newer players don't and thus may not recognize the stats.

Thus, I say, Hogsweat, if you do go back to using your old stats you might want to create a thread with that information, or just continue linking to your factbook, because you'll need evidence of your size for the newcomers.

My $0.02.

Now, lets see... Did I accept Whittier's tendency of using old populations?

Why, no.

Did I accept Allanea's retcon after it sunk into Earth' core?

Why, no.

Would I accept Hogsweat using its old statistics and retconning the nuclear detonation?

Oddly, yes. The main reason being that Hogsweat's proven in the past that he (Unlike certain others) isn't all about the rawr and 'I win' (Well, not oocly, anyway) and doesn't mind taking a loss - Even though he's a tad too warlike for my liking - in fact, I can't recall an instance when it didn't lose... anyway.

Also, in the (Few. Two, I think) instances I've actual interacted with him, the interaction has proven to be rather enjoyable and considerably amusing, which is exactly the thing I look for in NS.

Both points being points previous cases didn't have. And in the end - Despite me being actually, kinda in love with NS statistics, at least as far as the UN is concerned - it all comes down to personal preference and willingness to accept what somebody else plays at. In Hogsweat's case, I simply would accept it.

Nonetheless. While I would accept it, I wouldn't particularly like it. First of all, because no matter what, it is a copout, and as a second point, I can see manymanymany - especially new - players not accepting it. Which would be a long-term problem, I'd think. Or, if they do accept it, start claiming arbitrary populations all by themselves. And given how much I disagree with the arbitrary or multiplied populations of some 'Far Future Tech' nations... No, I wouldn't like it.

Thus, I'd personally prefer it if Hogsweat takes the bitter pill and starts anew with Hogsweatia, esentially playing survivors of the nuclear cataclysm (Why, oh why does this sound familiar <.<) slowly rebuilding. Which, while certainly not allowing as much rawr as the old Hogsweat - At least not for now - does definitely offer a whole lot - And I mean a serious lot - of RP opportunities. Without needing to create an entirely new backstory. The backstory is, after all, still there, with an added cataclysm.

And this latter option does definitely have far less problems, incompatibilities and the likes than the former option, which makes it rather likable.

Not to mention that it'd IMHO show quite a considerable strength of character

PS: So much for 'Leaving forever', huh?

I was wondering what people would think if I Rped Hogsweat as it was before the delete, except with a different posting puppet (probably this one)
I know Whittier did it and he was widely ignored but I'm wondering what people would think if I did it.
[edit: poll coming soon]
[edit2: Yeah, I would be adding the population of "Hogsweatia" onto 4.545 billion. I will make (Realistic, obviously not 100% defense) budgets and stats up from approximate GDPs of nations of similar size and minus 8 trillion~ (same as it was) off, counting for innefficiency, miscalc, and the like.

Thanks for the positive feedback.]
bump

Pardon my ignorance, but what did a nation as old and populated as yours do to get deleted?

Pardon my ignorance, but what did a nation as old and populated as yours do to get deleted?
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Hogsweat_deletion_controversy

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Hogsweat_deletion_controversy


ooc: thanks. For what it's worth, I consider the decision a spurious one on the part of the Mods.

WOW!! i was originally Exetonia (im gonna be roleplaying both this nation and Exetonia when she is ressurected) and I really enjoyed reading Hogsweat RP's because they were involved and obviously well worked out via instant messengers or something simmilar.

Now although having read what happened and realsing that the mods may have been a tad vicious on implementing the laws.. if Hogsweat had asked permission.. he may naver have been deleted.

Now, i put my opinion. When Exetonia is ressurected i will have no problem rp'ing with Hogsweat as its full nation or as a nation rebuilding from a nuclear holocaust because of the brilliant RP's that could ensue. Much respect to HogSweat... may such a great nation R.I.P

SubNote: Coruponia will not be a puppet nation of Exetonia, she will be a sepperate entity as i will be pursuing a completly different political stance with both nations. They may become allies they may not but both (when Exetonia is ressurected) are to be considerd sepperate entities. Thank you, that is all