NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay i know i am probably pipe dreaming but i just thought i put this out there and be done with it. What i am thinking about is to have a plasma armor. Meaning that there will be a chamber inside the tank generating plasma, it will be a TAPAMAK magnetic confinement type chamber that will keep the plasma from melting the tank away, there there will be vents with magnetized walls, that will repell the plasma, then the surface of the tank will be magnetized repelling the plasma expelled from the special vents and creating a sort of a shield around the whole tank that would be impenetrable to all incoming projectiles that would simply melt away as they touch the plasma. This tank will have to be big to have a TAPAMAK in it also a portion of the energy created by plasma can be tranfered into electric energy which is a rather complicated process for a fusion reactor and i am not gonna go into details now, anyways this should create enough energy to keep a constant flow of plasma above the surface of the tank. Anyways, tell me why this is not feasible in MT?

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That would be cool I would RP with you still but alot of people on here will ignore you.

This is just a proposition, if they gonna ignore me they can atleast say why they think this is not realistic. So people, come now, say something.

The power requirements would be enourmous

first off, the power in the tank would exceed the power willing to take more armor. alright? ok. so diesel-electric man, diesel-electric :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

The power requirements would be enourmous

Thats why i am gonna use a fusion type reactor system, it will produce more then enough power. The only problem i see is the size of the tank.

i would feel sorry for any units around when the outer wall gets holed :eek:

((Wouldn't it push you into a PMT culture?))

i would feel sorry for any units around when the outer wall gets holed :eek:

well thats the thing though its not gonna, thats the whole point, and of course you will have to keep your other units away from this tank. And no this is not PMT the technologies to make this are available today.

Whether or not it makes scientific sense I'm not sure, but I really don't think this can be classed as modern. It's not. If I were to RP against this, it would have to be in some special circumstance that recognised Pushka as somehow more advanced than the modern world from which Beth Gellert comes.

But why? This does make perfect sense scientifically, and MT technology is what we can make with what we have today, we can make this with what we have today, what exactly about this makes it impossible for RPing in MT?

But why? This does make perfect sense scientifically, and MT technology is what we can make with what we have today, we can make this with what we have today, what exactly about this makes it impossible for RPing in MT?

((The question that comes up for most is: what is the counter? Can the field be sustained indefinately? Can the "shield" be brought down by hitting it repeatedly, causing an overload or something? etc.))

The question is, how do you get a fusion reactor small enough to fit on a tank and keep it entirely MT? Even regular pebble-bed nuclear reactors are limited to no smaller then a small room.

A "fusion type reactor system" does not exist. Fusion is a source of controlled power is PMT or FT if it can ever be made to work. The reason Fusion does not work (as a good power source) is that it does not produce a chain reaction.

You have to make every Fusion reaction occur. In fusion bombs (thermonuclear) this is achieved by detonating a nuclear device and is not sustainable.

This is not MT. The power requirements are far too great for it ever to work (as MT and probably PMT).

The question is, how do you get a fusion reactor small enough to fit on a tank and keep it entirely MT? Even regular pebble-bed nuclear reactors are limited to no smaller then a small room.

There is a difference between fusion reactors and fission reactors, peddlebed reactors are fission reactors. There is no problem with sticking a TAPAMAK type chamber inside the tank to contain and make the plasma. Although as i said this tank will have to be a little bigger then usual

A "fusion type reactor system" does not exist. Fusion is a source of controlled power is PMT or FT if it can ever be made to work. The reason Fusion does not work (as a good power source) is that it does not produce a chain reaction.

You have to make every Fusion reaction occur. In fusion bombs (thermonuclear) this is achieved by detonating a nuclear device and is not sustainable.

This is not MT. The power requirements are far too great for it ever to work (as MT and probably PMT).


Yes it does, and it does work, and it has been made to work, there has been several experimental fusion reactors in the past yeras JET for example or TFTR, the one being developed right now is ITER. It will generate a 1000 MeV of electricity and yes there is a chain reaction. Please don't try to lecture me on this, i am a student of nuclear engineering just trust me this will work. The process is not all that complecated, you have a Deuterium-Trinium pellet in the middle, a powerful surge of electricity is administered to it creating plasma, plasma starts burning fusing together numerous ions, creating 3 times as much heat energy as fission reactors. Simply put you are uninformed.

Pushka, something is waiting for you in your TG box.

I think the main problem is pretty obvious. Well done, you've got an inpenetrable sheild that no-one can fire into. Trouble is, you wont be able to fire out of it as your rounds would melt as they left the barrel. That is assuming the barrel itself is armoured like this, as well as every inch of the exterior. Even the inside of the barrel, as slight damage could rupture the plasma armour and destroy the tank (and then some).

The answer to this is to either use the tank as a plasma-wall to absorb fire while the others do the damage, or to have a ring around the end of the barrel that projects the plasma in maybe a two metre radius around the tank. You'd lose your invincibility to the sides and rear (assuming tank is facing forward) but you'd be able to shoot the enemy.

Firstly Fusion Reactors have been made to work for periods of about half a second max, and the things are the size of an office block.
I have a way to kill it, set off a bomb underneath it, itl blow the tracks off and they cant really be armoured, even if they are the blast woudl chuck the tank into the air, probably landing on its back and melting its way into the ground and possibly forming a volcano.
Anyway have you thought about what happens to the "molten" material? Itl carry on moving! Your tank will get splashed constantly by molten metal, now thats not good for it.

Anyway have you thought about what happens to the "molten" material? Itl carry on moving! Your tank will get splashed constantly by molten metal, now thats not good for it.

True, but armour made to generate plasma would probably be impervious to it, and the metal itself might even be vapourised, though i have no idea on the boiling points of metals. However i do know that plasma temperature is variable, and at the most it is ridiculously hot.

Also Pushka, as a student of nuclear engineering, do you think it would be possible to create an Endothermonuclear weapon? If you got the +DeltaH high enough then you could non-lethally freeze an army to thaw and imprison later.

When talking about whether or not this is modern tech, no, the question is not, "what's the counter?" That would be a fair question by which to check godmodding in theoretical (id est future tech) RP technology, but doesn't apply to modern tech, because we already know the answers there.
As it happens, this clearly isn't modern tech, because it is theoretical never-done-before and the question of how to counter it is one for the future. This is future tech, and whether or not it is godmodding depends on whether or not it can theoretically be countered in the future.

OOC: This is most certainly *not* modern tech. If Super Dreadnoughts (battleships the same size as modern day oil tankers) are not considered 'modern tech', I don't see how this could be.

You're talking about harnessing plasma in a manner that probably won't exist for at least another 50 years. At the very least, this is PMT, but most likely FT.

Well someone mentioned melting incoming rounds. This might well be a major down point, agaisnt HEAT warheads it might work, by preventing the correction detoantion required to create the plasma jet and/or disrupting the high velcoity plasma flow (but then again Electrical reactive armor would work just as well for far far less power demand). Kinetic energy weapons might be a bit more a problem, i suppose the exact material used to generate the plasma from would dictate how hot the plasma would be and then determine what the actual effect would be on an incomming APFSDS round. While no expert you might be setting yourself up for problems, ie what if the round get turned completely to plasma and still retains it's velocity? to be honest i have only limited knowledge of how the magnetic shielding would work but would it be enough to prevent the now plasma state heavy metals comming into contact with the main armour?

ITER will run in 2015. It is not expected to run for more then 8 minuets at a time. Also it is not expected to produce more useable energy then it takes to run.

Also the radiation shielding would need to be extremely heavy.
This is only feasible as future tech.

When I said they don’t exist I meant one that work as power plants.

Also if the plasma is on the outside how do you keep it on the tank?

This is future tech.

I agree that this would be FT but I DO NOT agree that Fusion Technology would be FT. Its not even PMT, just look at the huge multitudes of Pebblebed Reactors on NS.

ITER will run in 2015. It is not expected to run for more then 8 minuets at a time. Also it is not expected to produce more useable energy then it takes to run.

Also the radiation shielding would need to be extremely heavy.
This is only feasible as future tech.

When I said they don’t exist I meant one that work as power plants.

Also if the plasma is on the outside how do you keep it on the tank?

This is future tech.


Actually, ITER is expected to be completed by 2016, but according to ITER.org the technology isn't expected to be considered plausible until 2050. But I don't want to get started on this, because Pushka and I argued ourselves to hate each other..although we made up. :fluffle:

I agree that this would be FT but I DO NOT agree that Fusion Technology would be FT. Its not even PMT, just look at the huge multitudes of Pebblebed Reactors on NS.

That's fission, not fusion.

The point of the magnets is to keep the plasma contained and in the current fusion reactors the magnets surround the plasma. So it would seem to me that using magnets on the outside of the tank would make to plasma simply fly off not stay on.
Also if whoever suggested this is some kind of nuclear physicist as they claimed and thinks this is modern technology you should be able to work out whether it will work yourself.
And will people stop confusing fission and fusion.

Fission = nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs etc.
Fusion = what happens in the sun and what some scientists have managed to sustain for milliseconds.

The point of the magnets is to keep the plasma contained and in the current fusion reactors the magnets surround the plasma. So it would seem to me that using magnets on the outside of the tank would make to plasma simply fly off not stay on.
Also if whoever suggested this is some kind of nuclear physicist as they claimed and thinks this is modern technology you should be able to work out whether it will work yourself.
And will people stop confusing fission and fusion.

Fission = nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs etc.
Fusion = what happens in the sun and what some scientists have managed to sustain for milliseconds.

OOC: As simple as that post is, he sums it up. Completely inplausible. Even PMT or FT, I would simply lob objects with high melting points at the "armor" until it bulges inwardly, close enough to the tank's armor to melt it.

Fusion = what happens in the sun and what some scientists have managed to sustain for milliseconds.

OOC:Actually, most nuclear bombs utilise fusion. Namely the ones that are called Hydrogen and Thermonuclear Warheads are fusion weapons. An atomic bomb is called a fission weapon. Neutron Bombs also use nuclear fusion. Finally, I have seen some people using Fusion reactors, I myself use TOKAMAKs... although only in production of power for cities and even then, quite rarely.

OOC:Actually, most nuclear bombs utilise fusion. Namely the ones that are called Hydrogen and Thermonuclear Warheads are fusion weapons. An atomic bomb is called a fission weapon. Neutron Bombs also use nuclear fusion. Finally, I have seen some people using Fusion reactors, I myself use TOKAMAKs... although only in production of power for cities and even then, quite rarely.

OOC: Thermonuclear weapons can use a fusion reaction--ONCE. Unless you have a massive pot of water that you're going to boil from a nuclear explosion, then don't expect to harness any energy from a nuke.

it will be a TAPAMAK magnetic confinement type chamber that will keep the plasma from melting the tank away, there there will be vents with magnetized walls, that will repell the plasma, then the surface of the tank will be magnetized repelling the plasma expelled from the special vents and creating a sort of a shield around the whole tank that would be impenetrable to all incoming projectiles

1. The tank would not just be big - it would be absolutely massive.
2. The cost would be enormous, and you could get a hell of a lot more, top of the line MT tanks for the same price.
3. Fusion reactions are stable for only very short periods.

AND NO. 4 - If you using a magnetized surface to repel the plasma from the vents into a shield around the tank then:

Repel is the key word – it would not be formed into a shield but REPELLED out of the vents away from the tanks.

OOC:Actually, most nuclear bombs utilise fusion. Namely the ones that are called Hydrogen and Thermonuclear Warheads are fusion weapons. An atomic bomb is called a fission weapon. Neutron Bombs also use nuclear fusion. Finally, I have seen some people using Fusion reactors, I myself use TOKAMAKs... although only in production of power for cities and even then, quite rarely.

No, most nuclear warheads use fission. Thermonuclear warheads use fusion once, as said before. Neutron bombs, however, are purely fusion, and the plus on a neutron bomb is that it kills everything, just like the fission bomb, but its radiation has a half-life of only forty eight hours, which is pretty great.

Why not just create a magnetic shield?
Advantages:
Would have been necessary anyways if you would use plasma shields

No Plasma problems

Would slow or stop all magnetic rounds

could use Osciosolating force sheilding (flickering on off to the point it has solid properties, this is - ironicly - the same way the electrons of an atom take up the bulk of the empty space and make matter appear solid)

Dissadvantages:
This has a distinct dissadvantage of sounding too much like something from "Star Trek" and therefore PMT at least. It is doable 'today' but it would be unfair to those using 1980 vintage 'Modern' tech.

Okay i know i am probably pipe dreaming but i just thought i put this out there and be done with it. What i am thinking about is to have a plasma armor. Meaning that there will be a chamber inside the tank generating plasma, it will be a TAPAMAK magnetic confinement type chamber that will keep the plasma from melting the tank away, there there will be vents with magnetized walls, that will repell the plasma, then the surface of the tank will be magnetized repelling the plasma expelled from the special vents and creating a sort of a shield around the whole tank that would be impenetrable to all incoming projectiles that would simply melt away as they touch the plasma. This tank will have to be big to have a TAPAMAK in it also a portion of the energy created by plasma can be tranfered into electric energy which is a rather complicated process for a fusion reactor and i am not gonna go into details now, anyways this should create enough energy to keep a constant flow of plasma above the surface of the tank. Anyways, tell me why this is not feasible in MT?

There is no way that would make a shield of plasma - as someone said earlier, the magnets only repel not attract...

HOWEVER,

I reckon if you took that chamber system and stuck a big ass linear tube of electromagnets in the form of some kind of turret, it could be turned into a primative plasma cannon.

*Starts theorising.*

Yeah it would make a sheild of plasma, i need the magnets to repel i don't need them to attract.

The point of the magnets is to keep the plasma contained and in the current fusion reactors the magnets surround the plasma. So it would seem to me that using magnets on the outside of the tank would make to plasma simply fly off not stay on.
Also if whoever suggested this is some kind of nuclear physicist as they claimed and thinks this is modern technology you should be able to work out whether it will work yourself.
And will people stop confusing fission and fusion.


As i said this is just a pipedream nothing more, and i am a nuclear physicist in my 2nd year of training anyways. I need the magnets on the outside to repel the plasma thats the whole point, the fusion reactor will keep creating a constant supply of it while the magnets on the outside of the tank will make sure that plasma rolls of the tank and doesn't touch the tank's surface, i need was magnets to repell.

Also fusion reaction can sustained for prolonged amounts of time, it all depends on how much electrical energy is available, and after plasma gets burning the reactor will produce 10 times more electricity then needed to sustain itself.

Anyways this thing will be way to big to be plausible thats the only reason i can see, even though there will be no vaccum and heat from the plasma will steal be able to melt the outside of the tank that can be avoided by use of some sort of a coolant in gaseous state, atleast i think it is. But this thing will be way too big, the reactor core added to the protection core, it will be a size of a building. So a pipe dream stays a pipe dream.

OOC: As simple as that post is, he sums it up. Completely inplausible. Even PMT or FT, I would simply lob objects with high melting points at the "armor" until it bulges inwardly, close enough to the tank's armor to melt it.

Yeah but then you'll have to specialise your rounds plus i will have a coolant system between the armor and the plasma. Anyways this was just my proposition of a different way of looking at things.

As i said this is just a pipedream nothing more, and i am a nuclear physicist in my 2nd year of training anyways.

So you keep saying but

I need the magnets on the outside to repel the plasma thats the whole point, the fusion reactor will keep creating a constant supply of it while the magnets on the outside of the tank will make sure that plasma rolls of the tank and doesn't touch the tank's surface, i need was magnets to repell.

But thats all they'll do - the plasma will come out of the tank and be repelled straight out of the tank to the ground where it just pool on the ground and melt the underside of the tank

But thats all they'll do - the plasma will come out of the tank and be repelled straight out of the tank to the ground where it just pool on the ground and melt the underside of the tank

No it won't, what it will do is get repelled by the magnet and give off all of its heat energy to the coolant pillow between the armor of the tank and the plasma and to the air outside of the tank. Once all of the heat energy is converted the plasma disappears, same as if you stick a lit candle in the microwave to create plasma and then turn off the microwave the plasma will disappear once it cools of. You obviously are good at pulling shit out of your ass, but try and read a book once in a while, it might proove to be useful. Also we had some idiot here claiming that magnets can't attract, not that i need them too, but yes sir magnets can attract. You guys are ridiculus, you don't know shit about what you are talking about yet are still trying to debate this with me, a guy who actually studies this and plans to make it his living (I mean nuclear energy, not making tank armor). What most of all non of you make an argument based on fact, just on your own misuderstanding and lack of knowledge. The fact is theoretically this is possible, practically you will have to stick a nuclear reactor inside of a tank, which is impractical. But hey i am sure if you're such a fucking smart ass and i don't study this stuff i am sure you can enlighten me on the matter of how exactly fusion reaction gets created, what kind of solution is used to create it, what kind of experiments have already been attempted and plan to be attempted. Hey why don't you also tell me about what ways there are of obtaining fusion over then magnetic confinement? Ah? Ah? Well i had a bad day and i am pissed, so i don't mind looking like a smart ass myself, go ahead son, show me what you got.

make it PMT and we'll be quiet. Its a little far fetched for the next ten years.

Its impossible, that thing would be too big too be practicle thats what i been saying for the past two pages. Technology to create a plasma shield is available today, there is just no practicle way to fit it into a tank, in 10 years there might be, who knows.

Oh yeah kids listen up, i just figured something out, you think that plasma is some kind of solid, that it will drop like a rock, well its not, it doesn't have weight, its not a liquid either, its closer to being a gas although its not that either. Anyways my point being that it will not slide down the magnetic field and form a puddle on the ground, making your argument baseless.

Its impossible, that thing would be too big too be practicle thats what i been saying for the past two pages.
--Snip--

Wheren't you the guy that started this thread?

Wheren't you the guy that started this thread?

I was, i just wanted to see how people would react to something radical. I was looking for a fight.

Well, it's doable, in theory, and theorfore qualifies for PMT. But it would be of poor and inefficient design. FT would have it nealy perfected to the status of a high grade "shield" as used on 'StarTrek', and would also be able to be used as a weapon, by warping the field around a target and collapsing it upon them, incinerating them.

Of course everyone would have it and CM, such as manetic "dampining fields' to keep others; plasma fields from frying them.