NationStates Jolt Archive

Press Conference

A general, three stars glittering on each of his shoulders, walks up to the platform and taps the microphone.

“Ahem, let us begin. As you can see behind me is the picture of a rather small looking armored vehicle, strange you might say because the track size. However this is the new MS-1A Masa Forward Minesweeping Vehicle, the first of its kind and this little vehicle will revolutionize minesweeping. As you all are aware if it exceedingly difficult to detect landmines and covering large areas systematically takes time and is dull, thus it is often that minesweeping parties find mines by stepping on them. Which is why we have come out with the Masa, which uses ground-penetrating sonar to detect mines. What you ask is why it won’t set them off, well the funny looking tracks explain that. Those tracks are so wide that this vehicle won’t even set off antipersonnel mines; the ground pressure is so low. For comparison a 200 lbs man with size 13 feet exerts 2.3 PSI, while this 20 ton vehicle exerts a mere 1.3 PSI. While lightly armored against small arms it has a maximum speed of 150 Kph on roads, and 130 on rough terrain.

Now one might ask how it achieves these speeds, and why the crew isn’t susceptible to the same boredom that affects infantry minesweepers. The answer to the latter is that it doesn’t have a crew, it is entirely computer controlled, your press packet has more information so please refer to that. With the space and weight saved from lacking a crew the MS-1A can fit a larger then normal engine, although it does have a rather restricted range. Because of its speed and light armor it is possible for it to survive of the modern battlefield, heh, most antitank missile need to hit something going 40 miles per hour, not ninety. Any questions?”

“Yes, will we be exporting this?”

“Yes, mostly because of the humanitarian aspect of the program. This little vehicle can clear vast stretches of land in relatively short periods of time and mark minefields without risk to itself. Useful if you have a large number of unexploded mines in your country that you can’t find. The other is that we generally don’t deploy mines ourselves so it is unlikely that this will be used against us. Well, that is all for now, please refer to your press packets for more information. Any foreign buyers can contact us at the thread, thank you and goodnight”

MS-1A Press Packet

MS-1A
Weight: 20 tons
Height: 2.2m
Length: 5.5m
Width: 4.1m
Top Speed: 150 Kph
Rugged Terrain: 130 Kph
Flat Terrain: 140 Kph
Range: 100 km
Crew: Autonomous
Detection System: Ground Penetrating Radar
Clearing System: 100 lbs HE strands
RHA Armor Values:
Front-200mm
Side-150mm
Back-50mm
Top-10mm
Track Width Total: 3.5m
PSI: 1.3
Unit Replacement Cost: $2,200,000
In this case the size of the track is what makes the difference, while the vehicle may weigh 20 tons it only has a 1.3 PSI due to the massive track size. A human male weighing 200 lbs and having size 13 feet has a PSI of 2.7, thus this vehicle will not trigger even antipersonnel mines and definately not antitank or antivehicle mines. Once it finds some mines, which it has to pass nearly directly over, it will lay down strands of HE which will either detonate the mines or set them off. While the vehicle has little armor what it does have will shrug off small arms fire and is speedy enough to stand a fair chance of partially evading missiles. This MS-1A is driven by a computer linked by satellite to a main operating center where it recieves direction, if cut off it will follow predetermined routes. If the MS-1A finds a minefield it will report back via satillite (or if cut off radio) then completely map the field before blowing holes and moving on. The MS-1A is speedy but relatively short ranged compared to tanks and has to refueled often.

The Silver Sky would like to buy production rights to the MS-1A Press Packet for $2.2 Billion USD, the price for 1000 units.

Your order for production rights $2.2 Billion is confirmed, plans will be transmitted along secure lines at your earliest convenience.

Money has been wired, we await the plans.

Plans have been transmitted via secure satellite uplink, receipt has been confirmed. Thank you for your business and your time.

To: Scellian Export Division

We're extremely interested in the purchase of a series of MS-1As for inclusion within our armed forces. Although this has prompted us to review our newer ATG-44, even though it has just been released, we do admit that this is a wonderful design. We also admit that our military lacks a good minsweeping vehicle and the fact that this is all computer controlled is quite enticing. Indeed, the only minesweepers we have are our scorpion add-ons for our main battle tanks and heavier vehicles, including our infantry fighting vehicle. Nonetheless, the need for an independent design is very lively.

As a consequence, we want to put in an order for eight thousand MS-1As, coming to a total of seventeen billion six hundred million United States Dollars. The money will be wired electronically from UniBank to your national bank, and it will be transferred under the name of Reichmarks, which have a higher value than the dollar. We assume your government has the channels to change the money to their own currency.

Regardless, we are sure that the MS-1A will do great within the Werhmacht, and we may even decide to expand it to the Waffen-SS, made entirely of foreign recruits. We will foward you the combat reports of the MS-1A after its first visual of war, which will most likely be soon since we are currently at war with Havenite forces to our south, and two rebel groups that threaten to overthrown the Emperor and put in place their own [the War of Golden Succession]. But again, we are very sure that this vehicle will see quite a success in the coming weeks.

We suggest that you ship these vehicles to Macabea City, and not to Targul Frumos, our main port, since Targul Frumos is under blockade by Havenite submarines. Macabea City, however, is clear of any threat, as Havenite naval forces do not have command of the sea, and will most likely lose their fleets anyway. Your convoy of merchants will be escorted once they are one thousand nautical miles from our coastline by the Luftwaffe, and within three hundred nautical miles by light cruisers. Thank you for your cooperation and we apologize in advance for the seemingly hostile attitude, but you can understand that a nation at war must protect its ports at all costs.

Thank you for your time and we will cooperate to the utmost for the completion of this order.

[signed]Fedor I

We will confirm your order for 8000 MS-1A's, which will take around eight months to produced based off our former production rate for our own armed forces. Since their are armed forces within the vicinity hostile to shipments we are more appreciative of the escort then weary. We will ship 1000 MS-1As per month, each in a convoy of ten ships which will be escorted by 12 of our own cruisers to within 1050nm of your country. It was a pleasure doing business and we hope that any conflict you are having will not interfere with the delivery of this vehicles.

OOC: Do you have a link to the thread for the Haven/Macabee conflict. If one of my ships get sunk then it could bring me into the conflict, unless it is a closed war.

[OOC: Here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=439156). I just went through the entire war with another friend player of mine [Malatose], so the sides should be even if you do come in. It took me a while to detail the war for him, but I can copy/paste our aim conversation here or to a TG, that way you're not in the dark, or you don't have to read all the posts there, which are rather long.

I don't think Haven will be able to sink your ships. He doesn't have anything near the area [here's the map (http://www.modernwarstudies.net/Macabee_map.gif)], but I can set him up if you want and blow one of the ships myself [don't worry I'll make it so it looks like it was him.]

Encrypted Transmission

We shall wire $2.5 Billion US for the production rights, we've wired half as proof of our sincerity. This would be terribly useful as we are currently landing troops. We shall also wire $2.2 Billion US for 1000 units to be shipped to us immediately.

OOC: I'm sure we can find a way to fit your ass into the rp. Nice vehicle by the way, I'd buy a few if it weren't for the current/upcoming situation.

OOC: Macabees, a TG with a short desc. would be best. I've scanned the thread so I have a vague idea what is going on, but I need a sit rep if I'm going to get involved, especially who is on wach side. You could suggest that someone attack the ships between when my cruisers leave and yours arrive. I have some other ideas, so TG me if you're intersted.

IC:
We will ship as soon as possible, due to other orders it will take a little over two months to get your MS-1A's to you, however the plans for the MS-1A have been transmitted via secure satellite.

OOC: While I like the idea, the design here seems to suffer from several notable contradictions.
By my calculations, the entire bottom of this vehicle would have to be the tracks. The ground pressure if it was just a box with those dimensions would be 1.268 psi, assuming short tons (since it would be 1.3981 psi if it were metric tons, I don't think it's that).
The problem is that such a configuration won't work too well. Something like that is going to make suspension almost nonexistant, and the unit will have serious difficulties navigating rough and broken terrain. Additionally, the design will almost certainly not be capable of those kinds of speeds. In fact, that speed is too much for any practical military tracked vehicle, and shouldn't even be half that. Minesweepers should be even less. The power for that kind of speed comes from bigger and heavier engines and drive trains, which would preclude the wonderful ground pressure this supposedly delivers (yes, even covering by making a UGV won't be enough). And worse, such high speeds cause a great deal of fatigue, and often damage, to numerous sensitive systems. It's the reason you don't see tanks barreling down the road at 100 km/h every day, even though many are quite capable of doing so. A modest speed of maybe 50 or 60 km/h is more than sufficient for most duties, and not more than a 75 km/h road speed is needed if it's to keep pace with armored combat forces. Anything beyond that is pretty much a complete waste.
Additionally, the sonar (I'd actually recommend ground-penetrating radar, something that's used by several systems in real life, and would work better) can't really be used effectively at high speeds, and this would likely be going at a more leisurely pace of say, 15-20 km/h, to be detecting mines. And either way, I'm curious as to the location of this system, which would need some space on the underside that doesn't seem to exist. Also, the system as deployed on a small ground vehicle would have a very small detection area. You'd just be clearing small lanes for single columns of vehicles, or doing the slow and tedious mine clearing seen by all other types of mineclearing vehicles.

Finally, while unguided rockets (LAWs, RPGs, etc) would have difficulty hitting something that fast, many ATGMs have a secondary anti-helicopter role. In other words, this still wouldn't be fast enough to avoid getting nailed.

OOC: Yes, short tons not metric. Its 1.3 because the entire underside is not track, hence the track width is different from the width of the vehicle. Changing the sonar to radar is an excellent idea, I didn't know that there was one so I will edit after this post. Don't argue with the PSI, argue with the stated 20 ton weight which should be more then enough to include a large engine and the light armor and systems the Masa has. Plus you have to prove that tanks can go 100+ kph on roads despite there not being a single instance where a tank with a stated max speed of 60 Kph has done so.

It is not a waste because changing this is meant to range ahead and scout out minefields for the advancing armor, and the speed at which detection would be possible would have to do with the rate of pulse of the radar or sonar. higher pulse equals higher speed at which you can detect stuff. Its front mounted BTW, which has room. Since it will scan out entire minefields it can place them on the map where it can either use its onboard munitions, which are admittedly limited, or allow other vehicles/infantry do the mineclearing.

What is the average hit rate for ATGM vs Helicopters moving at those speeds instead of hovering? That is the true question.

OOC: I'm not sure what you're saying there with the pressure. If the total width, including tracks, is 3.7m, than the vehicle has to be literally nothing more than a cab with essential systems sitting on top of a pair of 1.8m wide tracks. It's simple physics (and calculated with simple mathematics). Ground pressure is equal to the total weight of the unit divided by the surface area in contact with the ground. For a 40,000 lb vehicle to have a ground pressure of 1.3 pounds per square inch, it must have a surface area of ~30,769 square inches in contact with the ground. With a track length of 5.5m (~216.54 inches), the total width must be ~142.1 inches, or 3.609m, or each track being a little over 1.8m wide, leaving less than 0.1m between tracks. Any less than that, and the ground pressure will be higher. This is actually overly optimistic (in reality, the tracks would need to be even wider as a track is not in contact with the ground for its entire length).

For the tanks, be careful about mixing up facts. I said a mineclearing vehicle usually wouldn't need to be faster than 50 or 60 km/h (most are actually slower than 40, and many less than 20). The few tanks that are stated as having a top speed of 60 km/h won't be going 100 km/h, but they are relatively slow units, and often cited for their lack of speed compared to contemporaries. On the other hand, I do know of a Leopard 2 (official top speed of 75 km/h) going in the range of 90-95 km/h on a road, and the M1, on trials, managed well over 110 km/h, despite an official top speed of 45 mph (72.4 km/h). Production units are governed, but with that restriction removed, they can keep up with US highway traffic! I believe early versions of both the T-72 and T-80 are also capable of exceeding 90 km/h, if not 100, in optimal conditions. You often don't hear about these things, as they're not official, but that doesn't mean they don't occur. One must only know where to look, who to ask, or, in some instances, just get lucky and stumble across the information.

For ATGMs, it depends on the gunner, the weapon, and the guidance method. Older units might not be able to do it, but a Javelin and many more modern ATGMs won't have much difficulty engaging something that fast. Same goes for tank and IFV cannons. Though only the latter are actually intended for the role, both of the former have a noted anti-helicopter capability, and considering that the premier Soviet attack helicopter at the time many such designs were put down (Mi-24 Hind, in case you're wondering) actually engages at high speed like an attack aircraft, it's not much of a stretch.

I'm no expert on engines, but I believe that the weight savings from making the vehicle unmanned aren't going to be quite enough to warrant that kind of speed. You'd need one massively powerful engine and a spectacular drive train for that, and I just don't see it working out quite that way.

Also, come to think of it, there's another glaring hole with this: Many antitank mines aren't pressure detonated. They instead use a tilt-rod, which this can and will set off. Minefields often use both types to complicate mine-clearing efforts.

OOC: I'm not sure what you're saying there with the pressure. If the total width, including tracks, is 3.7m, than the vehicle has to be literally nothing more than a cab with essential systems sitting on top of a pair of 1.8m wide tracks. It's simple physics (and calculated with simple mathematics). Ground pressure is equal to the total weight of the unit divided by the surface area in contact with the ground. For a 40,000 lb vehicle to have a ground pressure of 1.3 pounds per square inch, it must have a surface area of ~30,769 square inches in contact with the ground. With a track length of 5.5m (~216.54 inches), the total width must be ~142.1 inches, or 3.609m, or each track being a little over 1.8m wide, leaving less than 0.1m between tracks. Any less than that, and the ground pressure will be higher. This is actually overly optimistic (in reality, the tracks would need to be even wider as a track is not in contact with the ground for its entire length).

Track Width: 3.5m
Vehicle Width: 3.7m

5.5*3.7=20.35m^2
20.35m^2=219 ft^2
40,000lbs /219 ft^2= 182.6 PSF
182.6 PSF=1.26 PSI

So I was off by .4, call it the difference between all the track touching and just most of it. I may want to make the vehicle 4m wide though, .2m is a little small.

be careful about mixing up facts. I said a mineclearing vehicle usually wouldn't need to be faster than 50 or 60 km/h (most are actually slower than 40, and many less than 20). The few tanks that are stated as having a top speed of 60 km/h won't be going 100 km/h, but they are relatively slow units, and often cited for their lack of speed compared to contemporaries. On the other hand, I do know of a Leopard 2 (official top speed of 75 km/h) going in the range of 90-95 km/h on a road, and the M1, on trials, managed well over 110 km/h, despite an official top speed of 45 mph (72.4 km/h). Production units are governed, but with that restriction removed, they can keep up with US highway traffic! I believe early versions of both the T-72 and T-80 are also capable of exceeding 90 km/h, if not 100, in optimal conditions. You often don't hear about these things, as they're not official, but that doesn't mean they don't occur. One must only know where to look, who to ask, or, in some instances, just get lucky and stumble across the information.

For purposes of debate I'll concede the point this point that tank can go fast if they want to. The reason that I need this to go fast is so that it can scout out areas for minefields ahead of an armored thrust, so the armor doesn't have to slow down to be sure that there isn't some minefield laying in wait. Of course if an engine for a tank rated at 75 KPH can make it go 110 then it seems more likely that the engine I have in mine can let it acheive the speeds listed.

For ATGMs, it depends on the gunner, the weapon, and the guidance method. Older units might not be able to do it, but a Javelin and many more modern ATGMs won't have much difficulty engaging something that fast. Same goes for tank and IFV cannons. Though only the latter are actually intended for the role, both of the former have a noted anti-helicopter capability, and considering that the premier Soviet attack helicopter at the time many such designs were put down (Mi-24 Hind, in case you're wondering) actually engages at high speed like an attack aircraft, it's not much of a stretch.

If you're on an open plain, and there is nothing to duck behind or trees to interpose between you and the missile then yes, its missile bait for the more advance ATGMs. With such a high speed it has a fair chance of ducking behind something or finding some trees to prematurely set off the missile. Without the speed then it could do that.

Also, come to think of it, there's another glaring hole with this: Many antitank mines aren't pressure detonated. They instead use a tilt-rod, which this can and will set off. Minefields often use both types to complicate mine-clearing efforts.

How does a tilt rod work, if it isn't pressure related at some level then falling tree branches or something stuck out in front of a vehicle will set them off. Even a strong enough gust of wind or a small rodent could set off a none pressure related mine.

OOC: I think we can agree to disagree on the speed. I don't think either of us are willing to budge on that one :p
I will state, however, that even fast tanks usually don't go more than 60-65 km/h off-road. As the surface gets rougher, the strain on the drive train and vibration effects on crews and systems get worse, further limiting practical speed.

For the tilt rod, the trigger is a rod stuck vertically out of the ground. It's heght above ground just exceeds the ground clearance of the intended target, and when the vehicle rolls over, its hull (or tread) pushes the rod down. When the rod is tilted to a certain degree, the mine detonates. This is the design used for detonating mines under the hull, wheras pressure triggers require the treads (or wheels) to go directly over the mine. Thus, tilt rods are more likely to be set off by a passing vehicle, and are also more likely to cause a catastrophic kill. Since the main defense against such things is an alert human operater, an unmanned vehicle like this one will be even more vulnerable to tilt-rod mines than normal units.

OOC: Yeah, sounds like it. At least the crew won't get bounced around with this one.

If you stuck something out in front of the minesweeper, five feet and at clearance level you could easily trigger something like that. Which is why they would be less common then the pressure triggered mines. Maybe I'm just missing something, but wouldn't that be true?

OOC: Indeed it would help. Of course, you'd need something capable of withstanding repeated blasts to be any good, which will be heavy, and also require a counterbalance in the rear to keep the vehicle from being front-heavy (bad). Additionally, it will, at the same time it provides protection, seriously hinder the vehicle's ability to negotiate obstacles, particularly gradients. Due to the length over the treads, it won't be able to handle anything beyond a very gradual incline. Unfortunately, right after a steeper gradient is a wonderful place to put a few mines (tanks come over a hill, detonate mines when they reach the bottom, and get stuck having to back up the hill to get out of the kill zone, exposed the whole way).

Unless you use something light but disposable. You know those toilet paper holders with springs in the center, and to get the roller out you have to press it together. If you had something set up like that so every time a mine blew the toilet paper roller away the unblownup portions of the rod would fall out. the tank could then release another rod which would take the place of the destroyed one. Like a soda can being dropped into place after someone has blown up, err, bought the first one.