NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: Yes I have Soviet Bloc's permission to use parts of his ST-37 write-up, he even read this before I posted it.
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M-89 'Lance' Infantry Fighting Vehicle
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/68157Silver/SSIFVVII.png
(Picture created by Soviet Bloc)

Primary Armament:
M350 Bushmaster III:
The Silver Sky National Arms M350 Bushmaster III 35mm Single-barrel ETC Chaingun provides the main armament for the M-89 'Lance', this weapon is intended to replace the aging 25mm Bushmaster formally used on the M2A3 Bradley.
It has a single barrel with an integrated dual-feed mechanism and remote ammunition selection. Either High Explosive Octo-nitro-cubane (HEONC), or Armor Piercing Discarding Fin-Stablizing Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) ammunition may be selected with the flick of a switch. The Gunner may select from single or multiple shot modes. The standard rate of fire is 450 rounds per minute, and has a range of 3,000 meters (depending on the ammunition used).
The HEONC round is effective against IFVs, APCs, and other light skined vehicles and fortifications. The APFSDS round is very effective against everything up to and including some MBTs especially against rear and side armor. The M-89 carrys 900 rounds ready to fire with another another 900 in storage. This weapon also incorporates Soviet Bloc's Electro Magnetic Assist(EMAS).

2x Dual ATGM/SAM Launchers:
The M-89 is equiped with gour ATGM/LOSAT launchers on either side of the turret(2 each side), the type of weapon to be used can range from TOW, Javelin, or even Dragoon, the choice is up to the customer. The only draw back is the inability to load the launchers from the inside of the IFV. The M-89 can carry 12 missiles (4 in launchers and 2 reloads in the IFV for each launcher).
The system can also carry SAM missiles in the same style. Usual layout is 6 ATGMs and 6 SAMs but is changed for each mission.

The Silver Sky version is armed with the GWS.78 Roc kinetic energy missile (KEM) from Isselmere Motor Works (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=391319), the weapons does not come with the M-89 and must be purchased seperately.

Secondary Armament:
Co-axle: M865 GPLMG
8.65 x 65mm (.34 calibre) General Purpose Light Machine Gun
The standard light MG of the Silver Sky Republican Army (SSRA), designed to have high velocity and penetration, can take out Light Vehicles and Techincals with no problem especially when armed with HE rounds. Operates in single shot, 5 round burst, or full auto. The M865 has 500 rounds ready to fire and 500 rounds in storage.

Commander Coupla: M155 HMG:(Not Shown)
15.5mm Heavy Machine gun is mounted on a remote-controlled coupla turret, the turret can easily be removed and replace with the standard ball bearing turret with a 15.5mm HMG on a pintle mount. The standard layout is 250 rounds ready to fire and another 250 in storage. Includes day/night scope.

Defensive Armament:

3x 5.56mm DREAD Close in Weapon System (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_DREAD,,00.html):
Basically consist of three passive IR detector, and 3 armored (enough to withstand shrapnel) centrifuges that rotate at astonishing speeds and flings 5.56mm tungsten metal balls at ungodly velocities towards incoming ATGMs and missiles destorying them. These are mounted on the front of the turret(towards the side, infront of the ATGM launchers) and one on the back of the turret.
WARNING: Use of the DREAD system near infantry or light skined vehicles can cause major damage or even death.

2x 8 cell 40mm Grenade Launchers:
Mounted on the sides of the turret infront of the ATGMs and just below the DREAD system, can fire smoke grenades, flares, chaff grenades or regular old HE-FRAG for anti-infantry use.

Electronics:
LTS-01 (Laser Targeting System Model 01):
First domestically produced targeting system from Silver Sky National Arms, uses a tri-laser beam to judge range and speed of target, the information is then relayed to a computer for processing. The emitter is coated with gold to prevent anti-laser systems from blinding the gunner. Can also be used to target the ATGMs launched from the vehicle. Max Range: 12km. Targeting beyond this range for ATGMs requires another vehicle/helicopter/infantry team to 'paint' the target. The system can also pick up the radiation from other laser systems with some level of effetiveness.

RTS-02 (RADAR Targeting System Model 02):
Sister system to the LTS-01, it's a AESA RADAR system designed to accompany the LTS-01 in case of bad weather, it consist of a multi-band system, it is designed to change freqeuncy every few seconds making it almost impossible to jam effectively. Judges distance speed and targets provides very accurate targeting data to the IFVs targeting proccessor making aiming a breeze. Max Range: 14km.
Also can fuction as a passive system and when used in tandem with the AARTS-04 can target aircraft for SAM missiles.

LITS-03 (LIDAR Targeting System Model 03):
The last land-based targeting system for the M-89. Consist of 3 multi-band LIDAR beams that focus on a target, they move over the target making a 3D model of it, it allows the gunner to identify weak spots and store the data for later. Max Range: 12km.

AARTS-04(Anti-Aircraft RADAR Targeting System):
A multi-band frequency hopping AESA RADAR system used in tandem with the RTS-02 to track, identify, and target low flying helicopters and aircraft with great effectiveness, used to target onboard SAMs.
Can also track inbound missiles and shell with varying degrees of effectiveness. Also, if used right can jam Active-RADAR seeking missiles, helicopter RADARs, and land based targeting RADAR, this is best used in tandem with other M-89s.

MSTDP-01(Multi-System Targeting Data Proccessor):
Receives targeting data from the M-89's other systems and proccesses and displays them into an user-friendly format for the gunner/aimer. Also calculates ballistics trajectories and other variables using roof top sensors.

Another major part of the system is that it consist of three helmets, one for the commander, gunner, and driver. This displays a 3D image onto a helmet, the user can identify, track, and target enemies simply by the turn of his head before exposing the vehicle to enemies.

The M-89's electronic systems can be easily accessed for repair/replacement, the buyer also has the option of installing his or hers own equipment.

Armor:

Reactiver Armor Layer: Optional Electric Reactive Armor(ElecRA), or MEXAS Non-explosive reactive armor. (Less effective against KE, can be used multiple times and cheaper then ElecRA, doesn't use any power also.)

WARNING:
Explosive Reactive Armor should be avoided because of the potential to cause damage to harm surrounding infantry and vehicles when used to support infantry operations

First Layer: Kevlar infused layer of ceramics designed to absorb and spread the kinetic energy of a kinetic kill round. This is further enhanced by a layer composed of a slanted titanium honeycomb layer (which gives it incredible kinetic energy absorbant powers). Behind this is a layer of solid steel which surrounds a coarse ceramics, kevlar, boronated plastic bond (the boronated plastic absorbs radiation). A final thick layer of boronated plastics and carbon elements protect the crew from radiation. This layer is further supplemented by the Fused Interlock Armor System [FIAS] which are blocks of armor interlocked with another block to form a configuration like that of a brick wall. These blocks are of a blended metal design with ceramic inserts, strengthened with fibers to prevent shattering and coated in a hard substance. The system is encased in an area which allows some movement, allowing for the system to actually absorb and dissipate kenetic energy across a wider area and softening any blows for the tertiary layer to absorb. All ceramics are surrounded in plasma immersion ion implanted metal armor, where the plates of armor are immersed in a high-temperature, high-magnetic field plasma field [within containment equipment]. The magnetic fields drive the energetic plasma ions into the metal creating a very hard outer layer. All steel surfaces are plasma immersed.

Second Layer: Alunimum, plasma ion-hardened tank roughly about an inch and a quarter thick that contains electrolytic fluid (which changes its viscosity when hit with an electric shock). When a round is detected coming towards the vehicle, an electric firing system fires an electrical pulse towards the electrodes protruding into the fluid across each individual tank (there are a series of these tanks, each covering different portions). This means, that when a round impacts and penetrates the primary layer, it will hit the gel-like liquid and then it will harden (well, thicken) and spread the energy across the tank, reducing its effectiveness. To prevent spillage, each tank is cordoned off with metal strips to prevent one hit from draining an entire tank. The tanks are present on the front glacis, turret sides, turret front, turret top, vehicle rear, and vehicle sides.

Third Layer: Tank-wide anti-spalling layer composed of light weight fibers and metal to prevent damage from fragments to the crew and internal components.

Powerplant:
The M-89's primary powerplant is an improved hybrid power plant to provide propulsion and power to its vast amount of systems. Initially, a heavily upgraded AVE-900-SSE1 800 horsepower twin turbocharged pure ethanol engine provides general power and powers a secondary electrical assist system (SEAS) which is a hybrid fuel cell/battery system. The hydrogen fuel cells recharge the batteries (or directly assist the engine) and the batteries store the energy as well as assist the engine. The batteries are also recharged using a series of electric generators attached to the non-driving roadwheels, as the wheel spins from movement, the generator produces electrical energy, either feeding the motors or storing it in the battery system.

The primary drive train is an electrically fired hydrostatic transmission system utilizing electrically operated pumps to regulate hydrualic flow to the hydrostatic transmission. This allows the M-89 a smooth acceleration, smooth deceleration, and infinitely variable speed. An emergency mechanical linkage with forward gears and two reverse provides improved traction and power/performance for situation when the electrical system is overcome or fails. Due to the nature of the drive system, it is very fuel efficient [as there is no direct load on the engine]. Another positive of this system is the fact that the ethanol engine can shut down and the tank can operate fully on battery and generator power, meaning the tank is completely silent.

For the suspension, the M-89 utilizes a magneto-rheological fluid (MR) semi-active suspension system to completely revolutionize the undercarriage of the vehicle. This suspension system provides for an ultra-smooth ride over any obstacle, depression, or obstruction. The system is augmented by conventional hydraulic shock absorber suspension to provide added stability and resilience.

Extra

Ergonomical features include a central air cooled crew compartments as well as engine based liquid heaters to provide even heating in the crew compartments during the winter while reducing engine heat signature. Storage is present within the turret for each turret crewmember to carry a personal defense weapon and ammunition. The electronics themselves are hardened and in most cases placed in protective cases with dampening devices to prevent pressure shock or exposure during combat conditions. This significantly increases the survivability of the vehicle.

The M-89 is also equipped to carry 6 fully armed infantry men into combat and unload them. The troop compartment is situated behind and around the crew compartment.

The M-89 also includes infantry weapon ports, infantry are capable of firing any type of Squad Automatic weapon, or assualt rifle out of the ports, their are 6 ports, 2 on each side and 1 on the back door with 1 next to it. It is also possible to permantly mount SAW type weapons on the fire ports, although this decreases space for the infantry and the weapons they carry.

Using a overpressure system, air filters and HAZMAT suits the M-89 is fully NBC proof for the both the crew and any potential riders.

-General Specifications-
Height: 2.5m [8.125ft]
Width: 3.2m [10.4ft]
Length: 6.8m [22.1ft]
Empty Weight: 20 tons
Fully Loaded Weight: 25 tons

Armament: M350 35mm Bushmaster III ETC Chaingun With EMAS
2x Dual ATGM/SAM Launchers
Co-axle: M865 8.65mm GPLMG
Commander Remote Control Turret: M155 15.5mm HMG
2x 8-cell General Purpose Grenade Launchers
3x 5.56mm DREAD CIWS

Crew: 3 (Driver, Gunner, Commander)
Troop Complement: 6 Fully Armed Infantry Men
Maximum range: 350 miles [Fuel Alone; IDEAL Conditions; Does Not Include Electrical Systems]

Max Speed: The M-89 is capable of reaching a top road speed of roughly seventy-five miles per hour [75 MPH] and an off-road speed of roughly fifthy-two miles per hour [52 MPH] in completely ideal conditions [which ARE NOT field conditions] [can be governed at max. fuel efficient speed]

Price: $3,720,000 Million Pandora Gems, or $6,676,284 Million USD (P$1(One Pandora Gem) = $1.8270 USD)

Production Rights: Cost of 1,000 M-89s

Discounts:
Allies: 7.5% Discount
Woodstock Pact Memebers: 6% Discount
IADF Members: 6% Discount
(If you are both an ally and a member of one of the two above alliances you only get the Allies discount not both.)

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OOC: Comments are welcome! :)

Added Price, dumb little old me forgot it! :p

Osoantipatico would like to buy 50 of these impressive vehicles for 250 Million Pandora Gems, which is uhhhh..... we'll just pay in Pandora Gems.

To: Osoantipatico
From: Steven Miller, CEO
Silver Sky National Arms

You purchase of 50 M-89 'Lance' Infantry Fighting Vehicles no longer cost 250 Million Pandora Gems due to a recent price cut, the price is now four Million Pandora Gems per vehicle or 200 Million Pandora Gems.

Production will commence when funds are received.

Thank you for buying from Silver Sky National Arms.

*BUMP* For comments and sales.

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*BUMP* Come on 90+ view and no comments?

*bump*

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The millitary of Potty 5 is interested. Could we get the RHAe values? And also what is the height of the troop compartment?

Not sure, but enough to withstand 75mm to 120mm Conventional slugs to the front, especiallly with ERA, or ElecRA, sides will be less.

Troop compartment is 4.5ft, the troops have to lean over a bit, but not too much for the average person.

OOC: When you say 120mm "slug" do you mean APFSDS, or a full caliber non-AP round of one existed? (The reason i ask as this could be as low as RHAe 200mm or as high as 1000mm+)

IC: Sound very well protected but due to limited capacity and small space we will have to pass on the design... at least for now.

OOC: When you say 120mm "slug" do you mean APFSDS, or a full caliber non-AP round of one existed? (The reason i ask as this could be as low as RHAe 200mm or as high as 1000mm+)

IC: Sound very well protected but due to limited capacity and small space we will have to pass on the design... at least for now.
OOC: A 120mm APFSDS round from an M1A2 Abrams can penetrate 620mm of RHA, so yeah, this can take that and a bit more, maybe 135mm at most.

IC: That is fine, we're happy you showed some interest in the product.

It takes tank rounds to the front armour and it weighs 15 tons, you say?

It takes tank rounds to the front armour and it weighs 15 tons, you say?
With ERA(Well 2nd Generation CERA) only my friend, and at 1km, and you can't tell me you haven't seen worse, though without CERA a 120mm tank round will shred this.

And the weight is empty weight, fully loaded it weights around 18-19tons.

With ERA(Well 2nd Generation CERA) my friend, and you can't tell me you haven't seen worse, with out CERA a 120mm tank round will shred this.
According to this - http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html - 2nd Generation ERA gives you 250mm RHA against APFSDS and weighs 3 tonnes. I assume that armour is counted under "empty weight" which means that without ERA the vehicle weighs 12 tons and has an RHA rating against APFSDS of ~450mm.

[OOC: Personally, I would rate the ceramic armor at around 400mm, because there's no way that with that weight you're going to get more than that - ceramic armor is extremely heavy; I think the 'official' ratings for 2nd Gen ERA is 300mm turret armor, so maximum this would be 700mm on the turret; but I think the weight should be more at around 20 tons, because I've seen less armored vehicles with higher weight values. Nonetheless, I don't think having a greater weight is necessarilly detrimental to the vehicle.]

I didn't mean second generation ERA, I meant Second Generation Captive Explosive Reactive Armor, I got it from Mekugi (1st Generation CERA: http://s13.invisionfree.com/LineartInc/index.php?showtopic=201).

And the armor is Soviet Bloc's, he never gave me a RHA rating, so I can't give you a very accurate RHA rating of the passive armor.

EDIT: I wanted a IFV that could be airlifted by my heavy helicopters, but I guess I could bump up the weight to ~20 tons.

I didn't mean second generation ERA, I meant Second Generation Captive Explosive Reactive Armor, I got it from Mekugi (1st Generation CERA: http://s13.invisionfree.com/LineartInc/index.php?showtopic=201).

And the armor is Soviet Bloc's, he never gave me a RHA rating, so I can't give you a very accurate RHA rating of the passive armor.


[OOC: Well just like Sarzonia said, it's a middle ground between NxRA and ERA. NxRA rates at 100mm vs. KE, so CERA at the most would rate at 200mm vs. KE, putting your total RHA at 600mm vs. KE on the turret.]

OOC: Personally I don't know about the RHA values of the 2nd Gen CERA, you'd have to ask Mekugi.

EDIT: 2nd Gen CERA is the last post in the link I gave you.

[OOC: Ah. Well since CERA is made up, we arent going to get realistic armour penetration values (it may not even work, but we'll assume it does for RP purposes) however nothing that Mekugi wrote implies that it's any better than existing ERA in terms of protection against enemy fire, just better in terms of safety to nearby troops. So you're still claiming 400mm RHA with a base weight of 12 tons.

The BMP-2 with a similar weight (14.3 tonnes) can be penetrated by heavy machinegun fire on the front armour. Saying that yours can take 120mm APFSDS rounds is... doubtful... It should weigh considerably more and then either be bigger or slower. In any case, ERA (even 'CERA') may not be a good idea in very close proximity of infantry.]

OOC: The BMP-2 is made of steel, not ballistics ceramics and other armors, though I still see your point, I can increase the fully weight to 20 tons and the empty weight by 2-4 tons, is that enough?

And Mac, I'm under the impression that balistics ceramics weight less then steel and provide better protection for the same thickness.

And so making it out of an equal mass of ballistics ceramics you get an effective armour increase of ~1200%? Dont think so. This has the approximate armour of a LeClerc (which is also made of composites, ceramics, etc) and, when you factor in the passengers as well as the gun, probably has the same kind of non-armour weight too. The LeClerc weighs 55 tons. Since about 35% of your armour is from ERA, 45 tons would be acceptable. Or am I just being too traditionalist?

OOC: Sorry if this is rather blunt, but have you even read the armor!? The whole thing isn't ballistics ceramics!

The LeClerc also has a bigger gun, it is also longer, wider, carries alot of ammo, has more fuel, and a 2x as big engine.

Yes I have, and it's less efficient than chobham which is why I picked the LeClerc which also has armour less efficient than chobham. The LeClerc has a bigger gun, but then it doesnt have to carry 6 fully equipped infantrymen. It has an engine that's twice as big because it needs to move the extra weight. You'll need one too. Frankly, if you give an IFV tank armour, dont complain at me when it starts to weigh like a tank.

OOC: Yes you're right claiming protection against 120mm was a bit much, and over the past few post I've pretty much relinquished that claim, how would protection against 90mm rounds be?

As I've said before this is learning for me, so thanks for the comments.

Did you? :confused: Ok then. Forget what I said.

Well, if the 120mm APFSDS launched from a conventional gun (allegedly) has 620mm of penetration at 1km, and an Abrams has ~1,000mm RHA of armour, then a good level of armour for this (if you're going for a conventional approach) would be about 200mm + NxRA / CERA with 20 - 25 tons total weight. Of course, it might not necessarily be a bad idea to up the armour and weight and make it more tank-like, although obviously not with a tank gun.

OOC: Upped the weight, and edited the armor to the new armor scheme from Soviet Bloc I use.

[OOC: I have one minor problem with the gap. Although this IFV is certainly possible with the current armored scheme, I think the armored scheme is overrated, simply because of that gap to 'render HEAT warheads useless'. Number one, a gap wouldn't render a CE round useless, especially when you consider that most CE rounds on NS have more power and punch in them, meaning they'll come out shapes with a greater force, meaning it won't spread as quickly. Nonetheless, it's a pretty good defense against CE rounds, but I personally think it would make your defense against KE Penetrators worse. Now, if you can prove me wrong, so be it - this is jut what I think, and there's a posssibility that I don't make sense; but I'm making sense to me. If you split your armor with that gap you're dividing the total mass of that armor in two, meaning you're splitting your armor, the same rule applies as to warfare in general - hit with a fist; meaning, keep your men together, and I think the same rule applies for armor. That KE penetrator is going to have a much easier time to get through your armor, than it would if your amor didn't have that gap, just because there's less mass to put enough effort into absorbing the energy of the KE penetrator. So, you're allowing the pentrator to technically isolate each seperate part of the armor, instead of putting it all together - which personally I think is the reason in RL that people don't put ERA over ceramic composites, because you wouldn't actually get a rolled homogenous armored value of ERA + Chobham. You would get 300mm@60° + say 200mm@60° - the kept energy of a round that's transitioning from one armored scheme to the other - but I'm going off on a tangent. At least, that's what I think.]

OOC: Yeah, you're right, that's a left over when I orginally wanted it to have a lot of protection against HEAT and HE warheads, I'm removing it now that it really has no use.

The Divine Empire of Kreynoria (this is just a tiny posting puppet since my main nation cannot post) seeks to purchase 10,000 of these magnificent IFVs, which will completely replace the aged and outdated M2A3 Bradley in our armed forces.

The Silver Sky wishes to thank The Divine Empire of Kreynoria for their purchase, production has begun and it will take an estimated 2 years to produce and deliver all of these vehicles.

Thank you.

*bump*

Ceramics are only better than steel when dealing with HEAT shells. (based on thickness/weight)

Against kinetics, they score about the same.

Russian T-64/72/80s (I have no clue about the T-90s) have ceramics, and look at what some M-1s could do to them in Iraq.

Ceramics are only better than steel when dealing with HEAT shells. (based on thickness/weight)

Against kinetics, they score about the same.

Russian T-/64/72s(I don't think there were any 80s) have ceramics, and look at what some M1s could do to them in Iraq.
1) Yes
2) Specially made ceramics are better then steel armor pound for pound, but not inch per inch
3) The type of T-72 that the M1s faced in Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom were export versions, they are made of all cast steel mixed with some laminates, none had ceramics.

The type you're refering too has spaces that are supposedibly(sp?) used for maintaince but are probably loaded with ceramics and haven't been tested against US 120mm guns

Ceramics are only better than steel when dealing with HEAT shells. (based on thickness/weight)

Against kinetics, they score about the same.

Russian T-64/72/80s (I have no clue about the T-90s) have ceramics, and look at what some M-1s could do to them in Iraq.

Ceramics reinforced by fibers of tungsten or depleted uranium will always yield more than steel and weigh less, that's there primary advantage.

As stated above, per thickness, the RHAe is the same, though it will wiegh less, it will present a large target in comparision to face hardened armour.

Other considerations, some are a bit sarcastic:

Mesh skirts could be used to further defeat uber HEAT shells like the Hellfire missile and that 152 mm thing on the M551 Sheridan (forgot the name). a 5' air gap should defeat them.

You could use kevlar, but a HEAT shell would literaly melt through it like butter. Per mass it is far superior to RHA, per thickness it is slightly infirior. When on fire, will produce noxous fumes.

Aluminum, due to better heat disipation and less density, will perfom slightly better than RHA in respect to HEAT and would bive good standing against KE rounds, this is why the USG opted for the Aluminum version of the M113. Like kevlar thopugh in thickness to RHAe though. Aluminum also burns rather fiercely once lit on fire.

1) As Mac stated, when reinforced by Tungsten and DU fibers ceramics are much better then RHA in all ways, but when pure ceramics are only better on weight.

2) That is the Shegalith(SP?) that you're refering too, and it sucked, the Sheridan suck, it could be penetrated by light MGs and both the Shegalith and the gun were prone to breaking if it went of a slight ledge, say a couple inches, and only 1 of 6 test Shegalith missile hit their targets.

Besides that fact that the helicopter would have to deal with the SAMs on board and both missiles would have to get past the DREAD CIWS. Besides their are no penetration statistics for the Hellfire II that have been made public. And besides, that's what MEXAS NxRA, and ERA and ElecRA are for.

3) Sheridans were an all aluminum hull with a cast steel turret I believe, and they sucked against AT weapons and couldn't stand against .50cal fire, dozens were knocked out by .50 MGs. The only reason that the US opted for the aluminum version of the M113 is because it was applied in more thickness then the Sheridans and it made it light enough to be carried by Hueys and other helicopters, much like the Sheridans however they couldn't stand up to .50 cal rounds for too long from the front and at all from the sides, besides the M113 wasn't ever meant to go into close combat for long periods of time, it was meant purely as a battle taxi(I do think the US made more armored version but i'm probably wrong). That's why all US IFVs have been steel bodies (M2A3, M3A3) since then. And also for the fact you pointed out, they burn, bad, and are easy to crumple. (Which is also why no more modern ships are all aluminum anymore.

Re:
2> the durability of the launcher is beside the point, if one hits, it does not matter what gets it there, a 5" shaped charge is still a BIG one, Hellfire missiles can also be fired by other tamks and other land vehicles.

Other> You still don't have a quip against Kevlar?

The point was that RHAe vs wieght is not THE factor. And you just helped me prive it.

Re:
2> the durability of the launcher is beside the point, if one hits, it does not matter what gets it there, a 5" shaped charge is still a BIG one, Hellfire missiles can also be fired by other tamks and other land vehicles.

Other> You still don't have a quip against Kevlar?

The point was that RHAe vs wieght is not THE factor. And you just helped me prive it.
2) THat's what the MEXAS NxRA, ERA, and ElecRA is for, and anyway, even if the missiles were launched from vehicles they'd still have to deal with the CIWS. And the 5" missile is self sucks, it couldn't hit the broad side of a house.

3) I don't know enough about Kevlar

4) You had a point? And yes RHA vs Weight is a great factor, why do you think the US uses steel encased DU instead of pure RHA? Cause the DU is denser, Aluminum is not denser then steel and is only better then steel when applied in greater quantities then the RHA for the same weight. Ceramics with DU and Tungsten Fibers will out preform RHA on thickness and weight. DU it self weighs more then steel and provides moe protection then steel in both equal weight and equal thickness.

2>True
3>I don't know how much you don't know
4>true

Looks like you passed armour 101. The tank is now impervious to any and ALL foreseeable manpack Anti Tank weapons and is air portable for some reason. Now let's start shooting 21 inch shaped charges at it en masse and see if it holds. And check for land mines while we are at it.

An APC\ICFV (whatever you want to call it it's still an AFV, and I shall call it an armed APC [gunship?]) still needs to be small, mobile, hold plenty-o-people, and do so in realitive safety. You still can only make armour so thick, otherwise what you have is a Malkerva copy with a smaller gun.

2>True
3>I don't know how much you don't know
4>true

Looks like you passed armour 101. The tank is now impervious to any and ALL foreseeable manpack Anti Tank weapons and is air portable for some reason. Now let's start shooting 21 inch shaped charges at it en masse and see if it holds. And check for land mines while we are at it.

An APC\ICFV (whatever you want to call it it's still an AFV, and I shall call it an armed APC [gunship?]) still needs to be small, mobile, hold plenty-o-people, and do so in realitive safety. You still can only make armour so thick, otherwise what you have is a Malkerva copy with a smaller gun.
First off, hold the sarcasm.

Secondly you were not talking about my IFV you were talking about existing vehicles.

Thirdly, it is not invureable at all, just difficult to destroy with a single missile, remember that NxRA and ERA are generally one shot defences, ElecRA can be used multiple times(so I've heard) but is overloaded it hit to many, and it is still vunerable to Top attack weapons. (Hell fire and the 5" are direct attack weapons and thus are easier to counter with CIWS, top attacks will probably gut it if more then one missile is launched)

It's not airportable by helicopters either, and it's still vunerable to AT mines of course and will be penetrated by large caliber AT guns, probably anything bigger then 60mm on front armor and 45mm on side armor, and 30mm on rear. And yes you can only make the armor so thick on IFVs, it's not a Heavy IFV(Mekrva, some other IDF modesl), nor is it a tank, thus it can be killed.

And if you're refering to my claim of it being capable of taking 120mm hits(On the first page), if you'd read you'd realize I eventually give up the claim.

The weight has finally been increased from 11 tons loaded to 22 tons.
No longer claims immunity to large shells, and just about everything else.

PT (1945)
Air portable (glider) < 15 tons (Panzer IV)
Air portable (DC-3) < 7 tons (M7 Locust and the Tetrarch)

MT
11 tons> = Helicopter portable (M-113)
15 tons> = Parachutable (ASU-87)
50 tons> Airliftable (M-1 Abrams, one at a time in C-5s)

PMT to FT
Verdict is still out on what you are limited to

The weight was increased a while ago, before you even posted, a few weeks/days before.

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*BUMP* Updated with new pic, may update at least one more time, will update the write up soon.

By the way:

Is this MT or PMT?

If PMT it sems rather lacking in 'punch', if MT, well, plasma armor did raise a bit of commotion before, and still would. It might even be helicopter portable in PMT tech level, but will be up against similar designs, and eventualy, indiginous 'copies'.

One more thing:

What happens to the plasma and gel armor layers in the event of power failure and or systems shutdown?
(What are the armor properties when nothing is on, including containment fields and electrodes? Please don't say it explodes, that would not a good tank make.)

Could make less expensive export version (w/o plasma, or CERA, and gel replaced with water, kevlar spall linner, less electronics, etc)

Could also make it lighter and less expensive by making it smaller, but you'll need to use munchkins then (like the french did when they made the AMX-13).
---

I still stick with the M-113, cheap, innexpensive, floats, helicopter portable, NBC safe, etc.
Though I did make slight changes, added plows, hydrojets, modular armor (Composite if needed, may use plasma once cleared) and an armored turret with light cannon and coaxial MG, optional flamethrower, and rockets.
True, when hit sufficently, they do become death traps, but not so much as their predicessor, the LVTP5 in particular was replaced by the M113 and LVTP7. The later was used for operations in surf, while the former was limited to calm water.

Those California based Orange Canning companies somehow had a gift for making tanks. They do great riot control services.

1) MT

2) I dunno, not my armor, go bother Soviet Bloc, it's his armor. Apparently everyone accepts it seeing as his ST-37, with the (almost) same armor scheme sold very, very well. (As all his tanks do)

3) You do that.

Well, my gripe with plasma armor is that I have came off of a topic about something very similar:

"TAPAMAK magnetic confinement type chamber that will keep the plasma from melting the tank away, there there will be vents with magnetized walls, that will repell the plasma" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448774)

In fact, you even posted on that thread.

And generally, people think a plasma liner is PMT.

The gel-electro-cushion might be fringe MT. And I personally have no problems with it.

You will either have to scrap the plasma liner or bump it into PMT as a reccon vehicle.

Think of this as a free bump otherwise.

I was referred here on a question concerning armor I designed... Nowhere in this armor is plasma used. The only references to plasma are in plasma ion immersion [used to strengthen certain metals used in the design and construction process]. You may have caught up on that and then believed it to be the fluid in the passive liquid defense system, however it is not, that is electrolytic fluid and is not plasma nor a related substance.

Oh well, its a free bump then.

All problems solved.

*bump*

*bump*

Office 15
1217 Government Way, Balkan City
Druid Province, Armed Holy Democratic Empire of Asgarnieu, 85546


TO: Silver Sky National Arms
FROM: Vehicluar Procurement Division, Department of Defense
SUBJECT: M-89 'Lance' Production Rights


Dear Silver Sky National Arms,

We have been looking for over a year for an "...effective, efficient, powerful, and economy-friendly Infantry Fighting Vehicle..." We believe we have found it here, and we would like to offer a price to purchase production rights.
We will pay $50,000,000.00 USD for the production rights to the M-89, and we will pay $150,000.00 USD in royalties for every M-89 that we produce. If these terms are not acceptable by you, we will rework them. We appreciate your fine vehicle, and we hope to be producing it shortly. Thank You.

Respectfully,

Rodney Paul Thompson
Secretary of Defense

The peoplesfreedom is considering buying production rights, just how much would that cost?

TO: Rodney Paul Thompson, Secretary of Defense, Vehicluar Procurement Division, Department of Defense
FROM: Steven Miller, CEO, Silver Sky National Armaments
SUBJECT: M-89 'Lance' Production Rights

We thank you greatly for you interesting in our M-89 'Lance' Infantry Fighting Vehicle, and we thank you for you bargain, but, seeing as Unlimited Domestic Production Rights for the M-89 go for $7,308,000,000.00 USD, the price for 1,000 vehicles, the inital price seems a bit low. But if you would pay, say, $73,080,000.00 USD [The Cost for 10 M-89s] for the production rights to the M-89, and pay $730,800.00 USD [10% of the Manufacturing Cost] in royalties for every M-89 that you produce, it would be an acceptable deal.

We hope these terms are acceptable to you. Remember, that you cannot resell any M-89s you make.

--------------------------------------------

TO: The PeoplesFreedom
FROM: Steven Miller, CEO, Silver Sky National Armaments
SUBJECT: M-89 'Lance' Production Rights

Unlimited Domestic Production Rights for theM-89 'Lance' Infantry Fighting Vehicle, this includes unlimited domestic production and permission to modifiy it as you wish, but, this does not include selling to other nations, wether it be the same or a modified version.

We hope this is acceptable.

Office 15
1217 Government Way, Balkan City
Druid Province, Armed Holy Democratic Empire of Asgarnieu, 85546


TO: Steven Miller, CEO, Silver Sky National Armaments
FROM: Vehicluar Procurement Division, Department of Defense
SUBJECT: M-89 'Lance' Production Rights


Dear Silver Sky National Arms,

We absolutly find your terms more than acceptable. We feel that the M-89 'Lance" Infantry Fighting Vehicle is imperative to our national security, and the protection of our troops. The 'Lance' is worth every penny we spend for it. We hope this is the beginning of a successful business relationship. We thank you for providing such reasonable terms. May God shine down on your business forever.

Respectfully,

Rodney Paul Thompson
Secretary of Defense

TO: Steven Miller, CEO of Silver Sky National Armaments
FROM: Office of Paul David Nettleton, USNSEA Minister of Defense
SUBJECT: Custom Design

Dear Mr. Miller,

While Mr. Nettleton cannot write this request personally, he has personally seen the document detailing your most impressive IFV and has had a meeting with the generals and the cabinet to propose to scrap all the old M3A3 Bradleys and replace them with the M-89 'Lance' IFVs, after the Joint Conglomerates/Southeast Asia Conflict (that's it's name internationally, but at home it is called the 'Allegiance War') is over. There are hints of serious reforms within our armed forces, so look forward to the business your corporation (along with a lot of other defense contractors) is going to receive.

But right now we do not want to grab the M-89. What we do want is a new Command and Control Vehicle to replace the M-4 C2V units (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/c2v.htm) we purchased from DMG Military Industries. We also know that you have cooperated with the Armed Republic of Soviet Bloc in creating some of your designs. We would like it if you were to do so, along with cooperation with DMG Military Industries - we are one of their most loyal, biggest and best customers over there, and we are on the near verge of forging an alliance - we don't want to lose that opportunity. State your cost and the government of the USNSEA shall fund the project.

Yours Truly,
His Excellency,
USNSEA Minister of Defense
Paul David Nettleton

bump

OOC: No time for an IC reply, but I'll have to turn you down, fist off I don't know sh*t about C2Vs and how they work, and I'll be busy cause I need to start an RP, get a post for anothe up, and then soccer conditioning starts friday.

OOC: Understood. Free bump for TSS!

To: Steven Miller, CEO of Silver Sky National Armaments
From: Ministry of Defense, Armed Democratic Republic of Mekugi
Subject: Procurement> M-89
--------------------------------------------------------------


Good Evening,
It has come to our attention that despite our best eforts of 'staying on top of things' we have quite obviously missed this wonderful design. Which is in our minds quite a pity, though not outright correctable.

As such we are highly interested in purchaseinga modified version of your M-89 vehcile if you feel your company can meet our requirements.

Primarily we wish to order an extended wheel base version of this vehicle so as to allow 9 men or five stretchers and kit, overall comforts are not a high priority, though an effect comparable to sardines should be avoided. We do not mind the reduction of missile payload (one reload each is fine by us) if this will allow us to achieve such a goal.

Secondly we wish to have the DREAD and 40mm grenade launchers removed, which we plan to retrofit with indigenous systems ones in country, it is not that we do not like such systems but we have indigenous systemt hat we feel much more up to the task.

And finally we wish for the missile racks to be extended so as to allow for one ATGW and one SAM prefferably of SA-33B+ spec. to be comfortably supported by the mounting.

If you feel those goals are obtainable we would be quite willing to enter into negotiations into proper compensation and royalties.

May the stars guide and protect you,
William Robeme
MoD, ADRM

OOC: By extended wheel base, I presume you mean a longer vehicle with wheels? Correct me if I'm wrong

To: Ministry of Defense, Armed Democratic Republic of Mekugi
From: Steven Miller, CEO of Silver Sky National Armaments
Subject: Procurement> M-89

We appreciate you interest in a M-89 variant, here by reffered to as the M-89A2, we have found out that such a vehicle wasn't immpossible and were about to create a extended wheeled version ourselves. We would like to now if this would be acceptable. However, we would like this variant to serve in our own military, if that is acceptable, also the entire development cost comes to $7,017,277,000 USD, this includes the price for 900 M-89A2s. Although, if you are willing to provide us with production rights to your newest APS and SSP systems along with working SA-33s(For evaluation, we may be interested in buying some) we can wave the entire cost. Please respond ASAP.

Key Points:

Internal: Missile load out has reduced from 2 reloads to single reloads
Troops carraige has increased from six personal to nine, and from two strechers from five (in medic conversion, which includes taking out seats and weapon storage baskets, which can be done easily). Although square footage per person has decreased by a small factor.

External: Besides the obvious, removal of the tracks and the addition of 8x8 wheels, with all wheel drive, which the increase in weight decreases offroad and onroad high speed capabilities by a small bit, although it gives a smoother ride. Another side affect is that with the wheeled base the entire vehicles sits a bit higher. And the missile racks have been extended to allow adquate space for the launch of the SA-33.

In related news, with the increase of the Pandora Gem's power over the USD and the lowered construction cost, prices of the M-89 and all of it's variants have fallen. Instead of $7,627,475 Million USD per A2 or $7,178,800 per A1 the cost is now, $7,017,277 Million USD per A2 and $6,676,284 per A1.

-General Specifications-
Height: 3.05m [10ft]
Width: 3.2m [10.4ft]
Length: 7.9m [25.9ft]
Empty Weight: 21.5 tons
Fully Loaded Weight: 26 tons

Armament: M350 35x300mm Bushmaster III ETC Chaingun
2x Dual ATGM/SAM Launchers
Co-axle: M865 8.65x65mm GPLMG
Commander Remote Control Turret: M155 15.5x115mm HMG

Crew: 3 (Driver, Gunner, Commander)
Troop Complement: 9 Fully Armed Infantry Men
Maximum range: 375 miles [Fuel Alone; IDEAL Conditions; Does Not Include Electrical Systems]

Max Speed: The M-89A2 is capable of reaching a top road speed of roughly seventy-five miles per hour [74 MPH] and an off-road speed of roughly fifthy-two miles per hour [48 MPH] in completely ideal conditions [which ARE NOT field conditions] [can be governed at max. fuel efficient speed]

Price: $3.91 Million Pandora Gems (P$1(One Pandora Gem) = $1.7947 USD)

[OOC: I meant more so to extend the tracks but in hindsight an 8x8 vehicle is ideal...]

To: Steven Miller, CEO of Silver Sky National Armaments
From: Ministry of Defense, Armed Democratic Republic of Mekugi
Subject: Re:Re:Procurement> M-89
-------------------------------------------------------------

Though it is of some hesitation I can offer the Vertical Active Protection System - Extended Range (VIPER) and Shooter Supression Device (SSD) as a trade for procution rights for the vehicle, however the SA-33 is already available to you via the IADF and technical materials can be transfered securely via your local IADF office.

If this is acceptable we can begin transfer of the documents and the beginning of legal manners concerning the agreement of domestic production rights for both those items.

May the stars guide and protect you,
William Robeme
MoD, ADRM

OOC: Now an IC reply?

OOC: Sorry for long wait
IC:

To: Ministry of Defense, Armed Democratic Republic of Mekugi
From: Steven Miller, CEO of Silver Sky National Armaments
Subject: Re:Re:Re: Procurement> M-89

These terms are acceptable, we are happy to do business with you, now we can begin legal matters.

OOC: Well?

OOC: Well?
OOC: Well what?

Your IC response to my request.