NationStates Jolt Archive

This is the OOC thread for the Second Sino-Japanese War, part of the Age of Imperialism Campaign (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433496&page=1&pp=15); you have to be part of that campaign to play in this one. The RP thread is here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446782).

Currently, all sides in this RP are filled, but that does not mean that the RP is closed; players who wish to participate should select a European power that could get involved and join the main RP thread as that nation. Here’s the list so far:
The Empire of Japan (Warta Endor)
The Middle Kingdom a/k/a China (Sharina)
The Third Republic of France (Bogmihia [proxy])
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (Latiatis)
The Kingdom of Siam (Warta Endor [as a puppet of Japan])
The Russian Empire (Karaska)
The Austro-Hungarian Empire a/k/a "the Dual Monarchy" (Narodna Odbrana)
The Grand German Empire (Relative Liberty)
The Kingdom of the Netherlands (open)
The United States of America (Narodna Odbrana [proxy])
The Commonwealth of Australia (Warshrike)
The Realm of New Zealand (Warshrike [as a puppet of Australia])Nations in red do not have players.

Not all of the nations listed above are likely to participate; they are listed as possible participants, mostly in the event that the conflict spreads.

The RP begins in 1912, with a series of growing European crises suggesting the immanence of a general war. Both China and Japan have considered seizing French Indochina in the event of any European war, either for their own gain or to keep the other party from getting it.

Some other notes: Russia is technically allied with both China and Japan, with the requirement that it must come to the aid of either party if attacked. This suggests that both nations need a provocation that they can use to blame the other and trigger the Russian alliance – although in truth Russia may be too busy with events in Europe to act.

Likewise, Japan has an alliance with Germany. While it is unlikely that Germany will send forces to the Pacific to assist Japan (or that Japanese forces will make their way to Europe, for that matter), a German war with France could trigger a Japanese attack on Indochina – or vice versa.

Holland and Germany are also technically allies under the Grand Alliance, although the Dutch will attempt to avoid involvement in a European war. This could result in a call by Holland for German (or Italian, Spanish, or Austrian and Hungarian) assistance in the defence of the Dutch East Indies, although such assistance would be quite difficult to render.

Australia and New Zealand are, of course, part of the British Empire/Commonwealth.

Finally, the United States has a secret agreement to refrain from interfering in Japanese conquests that are confined to the Asian continent. An expansion into the Dutch East Indies would violate that agreement, but an attack on French Indochina (or China proper) by Japan would not. The U.S. also has an informal alliance with Great Britain, which automatically extends to Australia and New Zealand.

Hey, I have a question: if Japan attacks France in Indochina, does that force Germany to attack France in Europe through their mutual alliance, or is the pact just defencive in nature?

That's classified.
Which means that I can't remember...

WE: Re: European intervention, I don’t see how there’s much of a danger of that. Yes, technically half of Europe is now allied with France – but most nations probably won’t honour that alliance at the moment if anything happens (and a couple of nations are still contemplating war with France, so… )

The big question even if Europe wanted to intervene, the nearest major French port is in Madagascar – which is also the nearest French coaling station. Only Britain and Holland have closer ports.

The distances from Madagascar are such that France would not be able to bring destroyers or torpedo boats to the party; the smallest ship they could use would be a light or protected cruiser, and that would leave them incredibly vulnerable to torpedo attack.

In contrast, you can establish a coaling station at Pattani near the Saimese-Malay border, which gives you command of the entire Bay of Bengal and a wide arc of operations into the South China Sea. It would be Tsushima Straits all over again.

As far a troops go, I’d rate the Thai equal to the Chinese, and the Japanese equal to the French. But no way does France have a division here – a couple of battalions, and many of those are Vietnamese, which are probably troops of despicable quality. You could probably mop up the French and their Vietnamese/Cambodian/Laotian allies easily (if they didn’t just defect or desert), which leaves you with the Chinese to deal with.

Given China’s (relative) lack of a navy, it will have to come in overland. Since the Mekong River is not navigable, that means hauling supplies overland on foot (using levee labour). Realistically, this limits Chinese operations to Tonkin and parts of Northern Laos, at least initially.

So now the question becomes this: you don’t feel ready to start this war because your armament programme won’t hit stride until 1914 (or so), which means 1915-16 is your “sweet spot”. Yet China is also arming. They start further back, but their potential is so much greater. You already have a modern army and an modern navy; every day that passes alters the balance of power to favour China because he’s building more railroads, shipyards, factories, machine shops, locomotive shops, power plants, steel mills, etc.

He’s where you were in the 1870’s or so – or maybe further. My assistance is helping him close the gap faster, of course. The longer you wait, the more he will have. Time is not on your side.

What China does have is HUGE army. In the 1850's, a civil war in China saw armies of 5 million or more marching around the countryside. China can send 500,000 men to Tonkin - but supplying them will be very difficult, and they won't be well armed (most will have muzzle loading muskets, with percussion caps [at least] - 1850's vintage technology). His cannon will be old and decepit, and there won't be a lot of pieces anyway (well, good ones; he may have a lot of pieces, but some will be 12pdr Brass Napoleons, Parrot rifles, or something equally antiquated). You could basically look at the Chinese army as being a Civil War/Crimean War vintage force, with some modern units thrown in for leavening.

What this will do is give both nations some practice in tactics. Japan is less in need of this, having fought fairly recently (1905); China hasn't fought much of anything (outside of its own forces, which is not a good test) since 1895, or almost 20 years. The experience could therefore be very important to China.

That's classified.
Which means that I can't remember...You can't remember? Well, was it an offencive or defencive alliance? That should tell you...

(You can keep it secret - that's OK. I'm just looking for some way to set things off if Italy and Spain can't manage it.

So you ask: then why did you pull that peace treaty out of your _ss? One-word answer: Russia. I wanted to take Russia out of the equation. Now I have [or at least I hope I have... :eek: ].

Oh, that and I wanted a chance to get the French voters thinking about a monarchy. That was important too - at least as far as my reactionary little heart is concerned.)

I'll take Russia... uh if I'm allowed too

bump!!

I'll take Russia... uh if I'm allowed tooGo to the main OOC thread and sign up.

I recommend you read the History Cliff Notes in the Recruitment Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=441531&page=1&pp=15), the Age of Imperialism European Time Line (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9713909#post9713909), and the last few pages of the Main RP Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434313&page=20&pp=15). There are several important changes in Russia's history that affect it profoundly; this is not a replay of WWI.

I will TG you with my MSN handle. You can try IM'ing me tonight and I can answer any questions you have.

WE and I had discussed his plans for invasion, but apparently it must be re-thought and re-worked as it was intended for 1915 onwards.

Perhaps this Sino-Japanese War will spark off World War I. Wouldn't it be funny- World War starting in Asia, not in Europe? ;)

I'll refit my military for a 1912 era. I believe the SEF (Siamese Expedition Force) was smaller, around 40000 men. I also had plans (when Defuniak RPed France) to land troops in North Vietnam (at the point at which Indochina is at it's smallest) and cut the country in half. I could use that plan after i refitted my military. In total I believe my Army was around the 800000 or 900000 men total. A large portion was guarding Korea and Taiwan with a respectable force in Japan, Sachalin and the Kurrills. And of course the SEF.

WE and I had discussed his plans for invasion, but apparently it must be re-thought and re-worked as it was intended for 1915 onwards.

Perhaps this Sino-Japanese War will spark off World War I. Wouldn't it be funny- World War starting in Asia, not in Europe? ;)

Hehehehe, Asia will decide the future of the Human Race! *ahum*

I will be taking the USA Narodna, I am interesting in seeing what I could do with it.

I will be taking the USA Narodna, I am interesting in seeing what I could do with it.I was proxying the U.S., so I'll TG you with where I was taking it...

1st “Formosa” Army, 37500 men, 7500 cavalry, Formosa
2nd “Osaka” Army, 40000 men, 5000 cavalry, SEF (Siamese Expedition Force)
3rd ”Kyoto” Army, 40000 men, 5000 cavalry, Korea
4th “Tokugawa” Army, 40000 men, 5000 cavalry, Liaoning
5th “Cavalry” Army, 20000 elite cavalry, Korea
6th ”Kenji” Army, 40000 elite men, 10000 elite cavalry, Korea
7th ”Nagasaki” Army, 40000 men, 10000 cavalry, Korea
8th ”Moshi” Army, 40000 men, 10000 cavalry, Korea
9th ”Fondjo” Army, 40000 men, 10000 cavalry, Korea
10th ”Shikuoka” Army, 40000 men, 10000 cavalry, Korea
11th ”Okinawa” Army, 40000 men, 10000 cavalry, Honshu
12th ”Northern” Army 47500 men, 7500 cavalry, Sakhalin
13th Army 45000 men, no cavalry , Kurrills
14th Army 40000 men, 5000 cavalry, Sakhalin
15th Army 80000 men, 10000 cavalry, Formosa
16th Army 85000 men, 5000 cavalry, Korea
17th Army 85000 men, 5000 cavalry, Kyushu

Airforce:
190 planes

1st. Fleet-Home Fleet (HQ:Yokohama)
3 Dreadnought
2 Pre Dreadnought Battleships
3 Battlecruisers
3 2nd class Battlecruisers
10 Coast Defence Ships
2 Armoured Cruisers
5 protected Cruisers
3 Light Cruisers
15 Destroyers
35 Motortorpedo boats
20 Submarines
1 Seaplane Carrier

2nd. Fleet-Western Fleet (HQ:Pusan)
3 Dreadnought
4 Pre Dreadnought Battleships
2 Battlecruisers
2 2nd Class Battlecruisers
5 Coast Defence Ships
3 Armoured Cruisers
5 Protected Cruisers
3 Light Cruisers
2 Seaplane carrier
15 Destroyers
45 Motortorpedo Boats
20 Submarines

3rd. Fleet-Southern Fleet (HQ:Taipei)
2 Dreadnought Battleships
4 Pre Dreadnought Battleships
2 Battlecruisers
3 Coast Defence Ships
4 Armoured Cruisers
5 Protected Cruisers
6 Lightcruisers
15 destroyers
25 Motortorpedo Boats
25 Submarines
1 Seaplane Carrier

My army, navy and airforce at the time dear old Mutsuhito died. The total number of men is 865000 men. I had around 220000 who were just raised and had just began training, so they wouldn't be fit for service for another 6 to 8 months (if I hurry things up it will be 6, but I'd rather wait untill my reinforcements are well trained and throw peasents into battle, which will lead to enormous casualties). However 20000 will form the deadly and feared Imperial Guards, with extended training of 18 months. The airforce is small, and I rped that the forward mounted machinegun was designed in 1913, so I still have only planes wich have a machinegun operated by the observer/gunner. The number of planes is 190, mostly stationed in Korea (about 95) and Formosa (45). The rest is in Japan/ Sakhalin (30) and Siam (20). The Siamese have been provided I also have a few so called Zeppelins, around ten of those. They are mainly used for reconaissance and a good battleview (anchor a zeppelin and you have a perfect lookout).

The Navy is somewhat smaller. Less subs and less Aircraftcarriers. I was busy with building the following:

The admiralty has ordered the construction of the following:
-2 Dreadnought Battleships
-5 Battlecruisers
-20 Destroyers
-25 Submarines (10 will be build with excisting technology and models, the others will be build with extended range etc.)
-4 Seaplane carriers, with 15 seaplanes.

Now about the coaling station, Bangkok hosts a small destroyers flottila. With a bit of luck and massive labour from loval Siamese volunteers I could upgrade it to a full military harbour (what's realistic in doing this, three months, four or six?) bringing in some heavier stuff from the Third Fleet.

I also found my battleplan which I made during Defuniak's attempt to expand (I understand we live shortly after the assasination attempt on the French Prime Minister, so that isn't very long ago).

The meeting between the father and son Fukuoka was a great success. Lieutenant General Fukuoka was honored to become the head of all Air forces of Japan. From now on he has the rank of Air Marshall and effectively leads all training, squadrons, air defence, development etc. They also discussed the plans for Siam and Indochina A plan was made in case of war with France. About 20000 men will land near Nha Tring, at the smallest part of Indochina. Forces from Siam will link up with these forces and then concentrate on the Northern part while the South will be occupied more slowly, at least until the North is secure. Then in a quick advance, the last French forces will be driven in the sea. Fukuoka jr. also added his thoughts about China.[/I]

Fukuoka jr.:"China is strong but also weak at the same time. If they want to move forces from one point to the other side of the country it will take weeks, even with railroads. China doesn't have that many resources, only mineral rich. It's army is pathetic, especially their navy. But China has a massive population, a great hunger for knowledge and is also nationalistic. I advice that we first seek resources elsewhere. The Dutch East Indies for example are pretty resource rich with rubber, oil, minerals etc. We could expand our influence there before we attack China."
Fukuoka sr.:"Interesting. I'll ask our planners to make some reports and plans for the Dutch East Indies. And about China...you're right, but I'd like to add that at the moment they are our allies. For now at least...

Fukuoka ordered the Formosa fleet to go to sea and twenty thousand men, one division, to board transports and armed merchant vessels. All other fleets went to Code Two, one stage from war and also the armies were alerted. Later that day the regents, the Emperor to be and the new Airmarshall in his new uniform visited the shrine of Hachiman, the god of war. Japan would probably need the War God in the coming years...

ooc. what about China's force Sharina ;)

O yeah, about the Dutch East Indies thing, forget that. That's not really important now.

Another thing, what month are we? Or better said, which season? If it's mid 1912, then it's in the middle of storm season. Fighting in South East Asia could be very difficult when windgusts up to 200 mph are blowing. If it's early 1912 or late 1912 say march or november, operations in Manchuria could become a cold bussiness. These are just a few examples I made. I won't change any plans, but I can imagine that the equipment in the winter is different from summer equipment.

I'm guessing August, 1912.

I have my hands full at the moment- my big day is on Monday, which means my implant will be activated and me becoming able to hear for the very first time in my life. I'll be doing some training and therapy starting this coming week, besides getting used to "hearing".

Consquently, my RP'ing time may go down as a result. I'm not sure what to expect in RL- I may be able to RP a lot, or a little, or not at all- depends on how much time I can have on the computer in the coming few weeks.

However, I will try my best to keep you guys updated on what's happening. :)

ooc. Ok, good luck Sharina! I hope it works :D

BUMPERS

Sorry guys, I'm not so imaginative as Norodna :p

I'm still here.

When everyone is ready to go, let me know. However, my RP'ing time may be reduced to the weekends for good detailed posts (I can still post here at NS during the week-days but I'll probably be too exhausted to do my usual high quality RP posts)

I'm still here.

When everyone is ready to go, let me know. However, my RP'ing time may be reduced to the weekends for good detailed posts (I can still post here at NS during the week-days but I'll probably be too exhausted to do my usual high quality RP posts)

I'm ready to go...

Nevermind the possible slump in RPing, I'm confident it will be higher than most of the other RP's here on NS. :)

BUMP! Can we get things going!

Yeah, I'm waiting for something *Cough*like a Japanese attack on China or Indochine*cough* to happen

Yeah, I'm waiting for something *Cough*like a Japanese attack on China or Indochine*cough* to happen

Likewise. It's Japan who is invading. ;)

Well, check the RP thread, guys.

Your posts look good, WE.

I'll wait until Japan actually invades Vietnam and Manchuria before I take action as I'm somewhat busy in RL at the moment with my implant process and therapy and all that, as well as juggling one other major RP project here at NS.

I *will* be here, and I'm fully interested in continuing this RP. However, I have one major question. How will we manage the battles, losses, etc. without god-modding or such?



In the meanwhile, consider China to be alerted to the Japanese military build-up, and China is currently continuing to build fortifications. It has been doing so for a while, since the K.U.K. has warned China about possible Japanese betrayal.

Well, I have also thought about that problem. We could copy the 1900-2000RP thread and install a war-mod. I don't know exactly how Galveston Bay does this, but I remember that you (Sharina) participated in that RP? Maybe you can ask him.

Trench mortars hadn't been developed yet, except by the Germans, and those were heavy (horse-drawn) mortars; the medium mortar was still 3-4 years off, the light mortar (man-portable, and what we think of as a mortar today) 5-6 years off. That is why I borrowed four of the heavies (with an option to buy) - even though mediums would have been better for my intended purposes - from the Germans (for use in Arabia against the Saudis). They will be available in a few more years, after public exposure, but as of yet they remain an untested, little known German weapons (the Dual Monarchy knows about them due to our close military liaison with Germany).

The rest of your post is pretty good (except for jumping over the barbed wire, along with the idea of cutting it with guns - they tried that in WWI with only limited success). I think your casualties were a bit light for a 4,000 man assault, but I will assume that this was because you were facing no more than a company of Chinese defenders and you overestimated the number of machine guns (for a company-sized force, two machineguns instead of four would be reasonable). Consider this scouting error (not at all uncommon).

well Spain isn't geting invalved with China yet so this has nothing to do with the actual thing. but if it was not for the k.u.k Spain would be helping Japan...

Hmmm, well (as with most "new" things of WWI) Mortars were used nn the Russo-Japanese war.

Indeed, German military observers of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05 not only came away with a new respect for hand grenades, but with fresh ideas for the use of the mortar bomb they had seen deployed.

The site is pretty reliable for WWI stuff. And it's very interesting. The cutting barbed wire with artillery idea came from my visit to Verdun a short while ago. They had some German Grenades with sharp steel (acording to my dictionary) projections, which they used to destroy barbed wire. I don't know exactly how it works, and it probably failed, because I didn't see any other examples of such grenades anywhere. They also used a heavy barrage to destroy barbed wire.

I found out that the Russo-Japanese war really was a pre-test for WWI. Most German tactics were copied and improved from that war!

If there were mortars, they would have been the heavy kind. Look at the first German minenwerfer (lit.,“mine throwers”). The devices we think of today as mortars (called “trench mortars” when first introduced) didn’t exist until 1916-17.

Remember, there were so-called “mortars” back in the 17th and 18th centuries, so the term has some legs. But those pieces - and the ones that were used in the Russo-Japanese war, I suspect - were akin to the heavy railroad guns of 1914.

Here’s a drawing of an 18th Century siege mortar (http://www.history.navy.mil/cannons/Glossary_04.jpg). There were frequently shipborne weapons (the vessels that bore them were usually called “bomb ketches”).

Here’s a photo of a mortar from the American Civil War ( http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/curriculum/socialstd/loc/RR.GIF). It weighed 8½ tons and had a 13” (330mm) bore.

Here’s a German 210mm heavy mortar (mörser) ( http://www.worldwar1.com/foto/sb201b.jpg).

Here’s an Austrian 305mm mortar (http://www.worldwar1.com/foto/ah159b.jpg).

One of the original jobs of the mortar was wire-cutting; results were spotty at best.I found out that the Russo-Japanese war really was a pre-test for WWI. Most German tactics were copied and improved from that war!So were everybody else’s: why do you think the French believed so fervently in the power of grenades and bayonet charges (a lesson that was seemingly reinforced by Bulgarian successes in the two Balkan Wars)? Because they were imitating the Japanese, that’s why!

ooc. What the hell do you want to do with Ho Chi Minh!?!?!?!

BTW, he took the name in the twenties when he was in Moscow as a communist agent. And I thought you were radical anti-communist? :DUncle Ho was much more a nationalist than a communist, but given that I despise nationalists far more than communists, that’s no selling point.

A radical anti-communist? No, that would be Lachenburg, Relative Liberty, and all American and Russian players to date. The Dual Monarchy isn’t radically anti-communist at all. We view the idea of socialism with a certain measure of academic amusement, as the silliest pipe dream we’ve seen come down the pike in a very long time. Nationalism – especially the virulent kind – and republican excess are much greater problems from our perspective; on that score, sending Ho to Vietnam to fight Japan is like curing syphilis with malaria; Vietnamese nationalism will do far less harm to the world than will Japanese nationalism – at least the Vietnamese version of the disease isn’t likely to spread beyond Indochina. ooc. BTW, I think I know what you want to do. But I must say that because I've "liberated" Vietnam from the French, they'd be a lot happier with Japan. One of the basic rules of a guerilla:

A guerilla must have to complete support of the local population. He must be like a fish in a river.Oh, that’s right – you’re Dutch. You haven’t studied the history of Vietnam very closely, have you? My brother fought there – and ultimately died in the cancer ward at Baylor University Hospital a couple years ago as a consequence of his exposure to defoliants while serving with the 1st Air Cavalry in country. I’ve studied their history quite closely (actually, that of all of Southeast Asia, as you noticed when I RP’ed Siam). Before Ho fought the French, he fought the Japanese (as a matter of fact, he was considered an extremely valuable asset by America’s OSS!). He was about as successful against the Japanese as Tito was against the Germans – by 1945 he had what was left of their garrison bottled up in enclaves on the coast, and it was his Viet Minh who accepted their surrender at the end of the war. :D

You have been warned – but I doubt there’s anything you can do about it. OOC: If you like at how thing turned out in WWII the Vietnamese hated the Japanese just as much as they did the French.I agree - if a Viet Minh guerrilla had just one bullet and both a Frenchman and a Japanese in his sight, it would be a tough call who he’d shoot. But you have to ask, who was capable of greater nastiness? French in Algeria, Japanese everywhere – decisions, decisions. ;)

This is going to be fun. Relative Liberty, can I borrow one of your U-boats? My subs are all very short range (although you and I could both work on that – in fact, this war will be a very good opportunity to improve our submarine technology; so how do you like The Sound of Music?) :D

OOC:

I'm still waiting for Narodna Obrana to give me a good idea of what Chinese forces I do possess (like he has done for France, Germany, Italy, etc.)

Once I know the details, I can start a counter-attack or such aganist the Japanese troops in Manchuria.During some of the civil wars of the previous decades, armies of 5,000,000 men were not uncommon; greater numbers might even be possible. As for a Chinese OOB, I doubt there is one, so just create whatever armies you want of whatever size you want, organised however you want. If you follow European practice, your units should look like this: 1 Army Corps (of c. 45,000 men), comprised of


2 Divisions (each of c. 21,000 men), comprised of


2 Brigades (each of c. 9,500 men), comprised of


2 Regiments (each of c. 4,500 men), comprised of


4 Battalions (each of c. 1,025 men), comprised of


4 Companies (each of c. 250 men ea.), comprised of


4 Platoons (each of c.60 men ea.), comprised of


4 Squads (each of c. 15 men ea.)


1 Machine Gun Section (of 4 Machine Guns)


1 Company of Engineers/Sappers


Various HQ & Support Units


1 Regiment of Artillery (of c.32 guns), comprised of


4 Batteries of Light Artillery (each of 6 guns)


1 Battery of Heavy Artillery (of 4 guns)


1 Battery of Howitzers (of 4 guns)


Various HQ & Support Units


Various HQ & Support Units


1 Regiment of Cavalry (of c.1,750 men), comprised of


6 Squadrons of Cavalry (each of c. 250 men), comprised of


4 Troops of Cavalry (each of c. 60 men)


1 Battery of Horse Artillery (of 4 guns)


1 Regiment of Artillery (of c.32 guns), comprised of


4 Batteries of Light Artillery (each of 6 guns)


1 Battery of Heavy Artillery (of 4 guns)


1 Battery of Howitzers (of 4 guns)


Various HQ & Support Units


Various HQ & Support Units


1 Engineer/Bridging Company


Various HQ & Support UnitsObviously, with only a couple of years to organise, many of these units will be incomplete or missing. Other common arrangements would involve attaching additional guns to a corps, or light infantry; taking some of the cavalry from the corps and assigning it to the divisions; adding a third division or some extra brigades; and other chnages of that sort.

In the European system, most services were provided at the regimental level (the k.u.k. Armee will soon break with this system, but not after quite a bit of combat experience); regiments were, in fact, the principle recruiting unit, having a depot company that would be assigned to a municipal or rural area to train recruits for the regiment. Battalions, companies, platoons, sections/squads (or whatever sub-units might exist) were simply command divisions of the regiment’s infantry strength – IOW, units comprised of infantry and the officers needed to command them [and not very many of those]); extra weapons (like machine guns or pioneers/sappers) were assigned to the regiments, although that would soon change as more became available (with the creation of smaller sections assigned directly to the battalions). Wagon transport was also assigned to the regiment.

Brigades were simply groups of regiments with commanders; occasionally additional units were attached, but this was rare. The division, however was frequently the next unit that was more than just a collection of smaller units. Here would be the artillery (although, if you’re following k.u.k. practice, the guns would actually be assigned to the corps, rather than the division), possibly (but rarely) some light infantry, and (frequently, although it’s not reflected above) a small amount of cavalry (for march route marking/marshalling/messaging/policing and the assembly of stragglers).

The corps would be where scouting units (like light infantry or cavalry) would be added to the mix, as well as bridging units. Several armies would also mass guns at this level (especially the k.u.k. Armee, although as war experience became available, large numbers of guns would move down the chain of command. Most planning would occur at the corps level, but corps HQ staff and support services were small (they would grow with time). Actually, officers were rare across the board, which hampered tactics.

Some armies used triangular organisation at various levels (but seldom at more than one level, not counting the corps – the Osmanli [Turkish] Army being the expection. So some armies might have three battalions per regiment, or three platoons/sections/squads per company. Battalions almost always had four companies, however, and divisions four regiments – that was virtually carved in stone.

The beauty of having your _ss kicked early on is that you will quickly end up with a lot of ad hoc units of all different sizes, equipment, and organisation. This will allow you to quickly learn what works and what doesn’t (much like Russia in 1941). Even though it is not great practice, I recommend following the Russian or Union (as in “American Civil War”) practice of simply building whole new units with fresh recruits and dissolving shattered units to send their men into the new units to serve as cadres. In time, as things stabilise, you’ll want to switch over to replacement vs. reconstruction; but when getting smashed in a blitz, replacement is almost impossible to manage.

In the meantime, though, you can assemble so-called “battle groups” (this was actually a German WWII tactic) and begin groping toward the combined arms tactics that emerged by the end of WWI. Of course you will have k.u.k. (and now German!) advisors who will help you work this out (and k.u.k volunteers are coming, too; I think I’ll call them the “Flying Tigers”! German pilots are welcome, even future heroin/opium addicts named Göring [don’t worry – he can get help for his addiction in Vienna; thanks to Drs. Freud and Groß, we have excellent programs for the treatment of drug abuse)]). This should enable you to get caught up eventually.

Still, this will be a long, difficult war.

On the sea, assume that you have a fair (but not huge) number of gunboats and torpedo boats, a handful of smallish destroyers, a few old (and nearly obsolete) protected cruisers and a handful of ancient and decrepit battleships, which will probably be little more that floating batteries. Because we have done a lot of work in torpedo defence, consider yourself to have torpedo nets; you will probably also have some old shore batteries. None of this will help you defeat the Japanese, but you may be able to give them a bloody nose before you get annihilated.

Some of your small boats will probably escape (or be away from your main harbours when the rest of your navy gets destroyed), and some of your cruisers could conceivably be at sea when the attack comes, and could attempt to prey on Japanese shipping in distant waters. For numbers, I would look at what the so-called “ABC” powers (Argentina, Brazil, and Chile) had in 1912 – that would be a fairly realistic baseline to use in determining the size of China’s fleet (it would look more like Brazil’s or Chile’s than Argentina’s [even though Argentina’s fleet was better]).

I hope this helps.

Oh, that’s right – you’re Dutch. You haven’t studied the history of Vietnam very closely, have you? My brother fought there – and ultimately died in the cancer ward at Baylor University Hospital a couple years ago as a consequence of his exposure to defoliants while serving with the 1st Air Cavalry in country. I’ve studied their history quite closely (actually, that of all of Southeast Asia, as you noticed when I RP’ed Siam). Before Ho fought the French, he fought the Japanese (as a matter of fact, he was considered an extremely valuable asset by America’s OSS!). He was about as successful against the Japanese as Tito was against the Germans – by 1945 he had what was left of their garrison bottled up in enclaves on the coast, and it was his Viet Minh who accepted their surrender at the end of the war.

You have been warned – but I doubt there’s anything you can do about it.

I haven't studied the history of Vietnam as good as you have, but I know a thing or two. I know America used Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese (but hey, you Americans used Osama Bin Laden too against the Soviets). I laso knew the Vietminh was one hell of a guerilla (almost regular due to their perfect organization etc. against the French) army. One thing is new to me, I thought it was Chiang Kai Shek who "liberated" Indochina? Or was it a part of Indochina?

I think the Vietnamese hate about everyone who isn't Vietnamese. They hated the Chinese, French, Japanese and Americans and couldn't get along to well with the Thai. I have to RP some more about Indochina, but for now China has a bit more priority. I do plan a certain amount of independance for Vietnam (who also acquire Cambodia east of the Mekong as administrative area). Compare it to Siam. In name independant, but with a pretty strong Japanese presence. But Uncle Ho can stir up a lot of problems!

As for China's army, RL they had the so called "New Army". Since we have only live in an alternate RP for two years, this should be the core of an army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Army

I think the Vietnamese hate about everyone who isn't Vietnamese. They hated the Chinese, French, Japanese and Americans and couldn't get along to well with the Thai.
Well, you have to consider that Vietnam, during most of its history, was at war with those countries.

I think the Vietnamese hate about everyone who isn't Vietnamese. They hated the Chinese, French, Japanese and Americans and couldn't get along to well with the Thai.And we won't talk about how they feel about Cambodians (or vice versa). Yeah, the Vietnamese have been a problem for everybody for a long time. You're not alone.

As for China's army, RL they had the so called "New Army". Since we have only live in an alternate RP for two years, this should be the core of an army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_ArmyYes, and if you go back and reread the RP thread info, I essentially place the Emperor Zhuge in the same role Yuan had, only with a lot more integrity. That would make the New Army Zhuge's army.

Following my example of Russians in WWII, these are the Guards.

Hmmmm. On the one hand, Relative Liberty did, in fact, neglect to take any precautions to prevent such an attack (or take his Far Eastern Squadron to sea, which is what I would have done). On the other hand, I am very reluctant to assume that Tsingtao had no defences. Most harbours had submarine and torpedo nets (or at least naval bases did). Am I to presume now that every player must declare that he is deploying such nets at each of his naval bases, or else we are to assume that they are not deployed? I think that would set a bad precedent.

I have no problem with the Japanese fleet bottling the Far East Squadron in Tsingtao, which guarantees their destruction or capture, but I am uneasy when it comes to letting Japan sneak four subs into Tsingtao harbour to torpedo the German Far East Squadron while at anchor.

If that's going to be the way we handle these things, all American naval bases will immediately and permanently deploy submarine and torpedo nets, mines, and gunboats or torpedo boatsto cover the harbour openings, and all American army bases will erect fences, deploy sentries, and take normal precautions against infiltration... :p

Heh, as I'll attack America :p It's the only nation who supports me (or at least, they're supposed to support me). It may seem a bit like a god mod, but I didn't say: Submarines enter harbour, and fire torpedoes. All torpedoes hit their targets, and the East Asian Squadron is no more. I just RPed the firing of the torpedoes. Those could be stopped by nets, miss their targets or hit. Relative Liberty must decide. I doubt any large anti submarine defences were established, though I found info that it was common practice for large ships such as Battleships and Dreadnoughts to erect Anti Torpedo nets around the ship. Those were actually quite cumbersome devices. If he says the ships had such devices, they would be easy targets for the surface ships, as those nets slow the ships down and are not so easy to bring the nets in...

And I think we should do attacks etc. like this.

(ooc.) "I'm plannning to attack ..., can you tell me what defences you have there?"
"Well, the harbour gun some coastal artillery batteries, submarine nets etc."
"OK *starts writing RP and posts it*"
"How about this?"
"Well, that's ok *posts reply*"

May be a bit difficult, but at least it'll prevent debate afterwards.

I doubt any large anti submarine defences were established, though I found info that it was common practice for large ships such as Battleships and Dreadnoughts to erect Anti Torpedo nets around the ship. Those were actually quite cumbersome devices. If he says the ships had such devices, they would be easy targets for the surface ships, as those nets slow the ships down and are not so easy to bring the nets in...Well, perhaps at minor stations like Tsingtao you may be right. But I know that the prinicpal anchorage of the k.u.k. Kriegsmarine at Pola had submarine nets - structures designed to snare submarines (I know this because a French submarine tried to do exactly what you've attempted here and ended up being captured after getting hopeless fouled in these nets).

Personally, I think you're setting yourself up for trouble: do you really want to have to declare the state of harbour defences in every single major (or minor) Japanese port when the first k.u.k. submarines begin to show up in Japanese waters in a few months? That's going to place a tremendous burden on you...

(I'm also a little curious how you decided which German ships were posted at Tsingtao. I'm guessing that - like everyone else - you used the 1914 deployments, but this is 1912, so can you be sure that the (smalller) German Reichsmarine could afford to deploy four capital ships to Chinese waters?)

Well, perhaps at minor stations like Tsingtao you may be right. But I know that the prinicpal anchorage of the k.u.k. Kriegsmarine at Pola had submarine nets - structures designed to snare submarines (I know this because a French submarine tried to do exactly what you've attempted here and ended up being captured after getting hopeless fouled in these nets).

Personally, I think you're setting yourself up for trouble: do you really want to have to declare the state of harbour defences in every single major (or minor) Japanese port when the first k.u.k. submarines begin to show up in Japanese waters in a few months? That's going to place a tremendous burden on you...

(I'm also a little curious how you decided which German ships were posted at Tsingtao. I'm guessing that - like everyone else - you used the 1914 deployments, but this is 1912, so can you be sure that the (smalller) German Reichsmarine could afford to deploy four capital ships to Chinese waters?)

I read the about the French attempt. As for the German ships, I just used the factbook thread where Relative Liberty posted his navy, so...

As for the submarine problem, that would indeed be some sort of a problem. I just have a few questions about how the hell KuK Subs will get to the Pacific. You could station them in Rangoon, and attack everything near Malaysia. Or if Russia turns Anti Japanese, you could try to get them to Vladivostok...somehow. And submarine tenders will be found and destroyed relaively easily. You seriously think the entire Japanese fleet is near Qingdao?

I just have a few questions about how the hell KuK Subs will get to the Pacific. You could station them in Rangoon, and attack everything near Malaysia. Or if Russia turns Anti Japanese, you could try to get them to Vladivostok...somehow. And submarine tenders will be found and destroyed relaively easily. You seriously think the entire Japanese fleet is near Qingdao?Do you think I'm going to tell you my entire strategy? ;)

Do you think I'm going to tell you my entire strategy? ;)

No :D

But it was worth a try...:p Just very itchy to know...Just like the favour...

Just read the post.
1. Basic submarine defences would probably been deployed as the news of the German declaration of war reached the German commanders.
2. Granted, the troops or the OKH didn't expect to be attacked so soon and would be taken by surprise.

Conclusion:
A couple of torpedoes hit, but the ships suffer only light damage. German counter-fire, if any, will prove largely ineffective and the ground troops will scramble to man their positions and prepare for an assault.


Any problems or objections of any kind?

Actually, I planned/thought the subs would be destroyed during the counterfire :p

It's ok with me. I could RP that on the way out that one or two get stuck in submarine nets or something.

I'll start writing the post then, hang on.

Hiyas guys.

I have a lot on my plate right now- remember the new job I told you guys about? It's started up, so I won't be able to login NS during the day, then after I get home, I have to hurry to do my cochlear implant therapy, and then make dinner afterwards. I finally get free time around 8:00 PM EST or so everyday. Ugh.

Therefore, the most RP time I may have will be on the weekends. That is when I'll be able to write up my usual high quality RP posts instead of medicore or sub-standard ones.

I'll try to post RP posts as I have the time to do so. Consider my Chinese forces in retreat and initating delay actions aganist the Japanese forces.

Congrats with your job! Well done! As I said before, we don't have to rush things. I got the time, so...

Just thought to add this: I'll be Russia for the time being, but we really need to find new players*. For the duration of the war, there will be no conflict of interests (I hope) between Romania and Russia, but after that things may change.

Edit: * New players who don't quit after a few days.

You're Russia?!?!?! OMG, I am so f_ck_d!!!! :eek:

Concur with you Bogmihia. We need new active players.

You're Russia?!?!?! OMG, I am so f_ck_d!!!! :eek:
If I'm Russia this doesn't mean I'm necessarilly allied with France. I'm really trying to stay as neutral as possible. I can also step down, if you find a replacement. Three nations is too much for me on a permanent basis.