NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been looking for a way to improve the power of a turbofan without making it better, and I might have found a solution:

I call this the Ramfan. It works by having a low-bypass fan in-front of a conventional ramjet. The fan sucks in air and into a funnel/cone-type structure. The cone becomes very narrow causing the air to slow down, therefore compress, similar to the operation of a ramjet. Not only that but a series of pipes carrying liquid coolant act as a heat exchange. It works by having the coolant, cool the incoming air, therefore compressing it, and heating up the coolant. Once the air has been compressed, it goes through a narrow pipe where fuel injectors inject fuel, starting the combustion. After that the exhaust is let out. Here the heated coolant is then pumped to the back of the engine were it combusts with the rest of the exhaust. The bypass air joins the exhaust and contributes up to 25% of the thrust with a maximum of 45% bypass air since this is low-bypass fan.

Now this results in a ramjet that doesn't need assistance to start along with having a very powerful engine. Not only that it retains much of the ramjets simplicity, by having only a fan. The fan is turned by the use of electricity. Friction created by the aircraft is used to create electricity for the aircraft, therefore generating the power for the engine.

Remember this is a very basic idea on the entire operation of the engine. I'm not certified to really create a new engine, but I dd my try. All I can hope is that when I check, this thread hasn't been killed by experts and has some life to it. But thanks to anyone that helps :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/Blackbird-SR-71/RamfanJetEngine3.png

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Interesting concept run that bit about where the electricity to turn the forn fan past me again, i didnt get that bit.

Interesting concept run that bit about where the electricity to turn the forn fan past me again, i didnt get that bit.

The electricity is produced using a very exotic way. Friction created by the aircraft by passing through air is gathered and converted to electricity. The electricity then powers the fan and the entire aircraft. I'm not really sure if this would work (actually I do but I'm not sure how effective it will be). That's why I'm asking people to comment before I put it in any aircraft that I design.

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come on people

Its an interesting design, and I personally see no problem with it, though I really have no experience in these sorts of things.

Its an interesting design, and I personally see no problem with it, though I really have no experience in these sorts of things.

Thanks :) Hopefully I can get some experts to evaluate it.

Not a bad idea. Glad to see someone is trying to find out about possible technologies before tossing them into some new-fangled design.

I reaaaaally like it, Good job! Expect some purchases from me.

Thanks ISAF and Artista :)

Artista: Also sure I'll sell you the engine once I get all the things done. :)

Wait, isn't this how the RS-71's engine was originally designed? A semi-flex fan, simular to a fan within a turbofan, is placed and accelerated to speeds efficantly, and then the ramjet takes over once sufficant speed is reached...

I think the problem was metals that could withstand the stresses infront of the ramjet (me ranting, correct me if I am wrong).

Congrats. You've reinvented the Turbofan...albeit with an additional heat-exchange.

Well, he made a variant of ATREX, but that's not the point. He made an engine that seems feasable, not some wanky work of Nationstatesian science.

SU, think I should post up the SSR? Or should I leave that until the testbed plane is written up?


EDIT: Hmmm... Thermoelectric ramjet.

Wait, isn't this how the RS-71's engine was originally designed? A semi-flex fan, simular to a fan within a turbofan, is placed and accelerated to speeds efficantly, and then the ramjet takes over once sufficant speed is reached...

I think the problem was metals that could withstand the stresses infront of the ramjet (me ranting, correct me if I am wrong).

Hmm I don't know. I know the current SR-71 uses of course turboramjets but I didn't know about that. From what I know (I read a book about the early development of the SR-71) there wasn't anything about that. But I'll need to do some research into that. Thanks for the tip, if it's true I can compare them.

Miraclia: Sorry its not a turbofan in any sense. All it is a combination of the best of both ramjets and turbofans. The pic is a bit misguiding with that shaft. I'm too lazy to get rid of it but I'll update it soon or at least by tomorrow.

TCE: I was thinking we could design a testbed aircraft after I get this posted for a while (a couple of more days just in-case). Then we'll implent that SSR in and see what people think. Is that alright? Or we can always also put that up. Doesn't really matter to me, just choose ;)

I was thinking we could design a testbed aircraft after I get this posted for a while (a couple of more days just in-case).

Sure. I was just hoping we don't get those unnerving calls of wankery when the engine is explained in any detail.

According to Wikipedia:

A variant of the pure ramjet is the 'combined cycle' engine, intended to overcome the limitations of the pure ramjet. One example of this is the SABRE engine. Another example of this is the Air Turbo Ramjet (ATR) which operates as a conventional turbojet at subsonic speeds and a fan assisted ramjet at speeds below Mach 6.

And right below that...

The ATREX engine developed in Japan is an experimental implementation of this concept. It uses liquid hydrogen fuel in a fairly exotic single-fan arrangement. The liquid hydrogen fuel is pumped through a heat exchanger in the air-intake, simultaneously heating the liquid hydrogen, and cooling the incoming air. This cooling of the incoming air is critical in achieving a reasonable efficiency. The hydrogen then continues through a second heat exchanger positions after the combustion section, where the hot exhaust is used to further heat the hydrogen, turning it in a very high pressure gas. This gas is then passed through the tips of the fan providing driving power to the fan at sub-sonic speeds. After mixing with the air, it's then combusted in the combustion chamber.

Alas, the first difference I see between this engine and an ARTEX engine is that this engine here, for the purposes of intellectual property right will be called the thermoelectric ramjet, could likely use conventional fuels, and not rely on fuel to compress the intake air and power the turbofan. That's a major difference - less likelyhood of minor engine damage killing the fuel supply.

According to Wikipedia:

A variant of the pure ramjet is the 'combined cycle' engine, intended to overcome the limitations of the pure ramjet. One example of this is the SABRE engine. Another example of this is the Air Turbo Ramjet (ATR) which operates as a conventional turbojet at subsonic speeds and a fan assisted ramjet at speeds below Mach 6.

And right below that...

The ATREX engine developed in Japan is an experimental implementation of this concept. It uses liquid hydrogen fuel in a fairly exotic single-fan arrangement. The liquid hydrogen fuel is pumped through a heat exchanger in the air-intake, simultaneously heating the liquid hydrogen, and cooling the incoming air. This cooling of the incoming air is critical in achieving a reasonable efficiency. The hydrogen then continues through a second heat exchanger positions after the combustion section, where the hot exhaust is used to further heat the hydrogen, turning it in a very high pressure gas. This gas is then passed through the tips of the fan providing driving power to the fan at sub-sonic speeds. After mixing with the air, it's then combusted in the combustion chamber.

Actually I modelled my engine's heat exchange after that. But I don't see what point your trying to bring up.

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How exactly do you convert friction to electricity? Also why would you need electricity to power up the fun? Just design the fins in such a way so that the incoming air would rotate them, at speeds modern planes fly on your fan would be spinning as fast as you need it.

How exactly do you convert friction to electricity? Also why would you need electricity to power up the fun? Just design the fins in such a way so that the incoming air would rotate them, at speeds modern planes fly on your fan would be spinning as fast as you need it.

I can't say what technology would be used as I'm still trying to figure out but the heat created by the friction could be converted into electricity.

Also for the fan: Then there would be the problem of actually starting up the fan creating a catch 22 scenario.

Engines tend to produce an aircraft's electricity through the turbines that propel the fan and compressors. An auxiliary power unit or starter cartridges can be used to start the fan and compressors to move the turbines to generate power for the aircraft and the fan and compressors.

At present, I can't exactly think of a means to convert thermal energy to electrical energy except by a thermocouple, such as that used in an oven, but then it's been years since I've taken a science course.

It might be a good idea to check out the Wiki article on the ATREX that Freedomstaki suggested and follow it up with a fuller web search.

An interesting concept, none the less.

Engines tend to produce an aircraft's electricity through the turbines that propel the fan and compressors. An auxiliary power unit or starter cartridges can be used to start the fan and compressors to move the turbines to generate power for the aircraft and the fan and compressors.

At present, I can't exactly think of a means to convert thermal energy to electrical energy except by a thermocouple, such as that used in an oven, but then it's been years since I've taken a science course.

It might be a good idea to check out the Wiki article on the ATREX that Freedomstaki suggested and follow it up with a fuller web search.

An interesting concept, none the less.

Thanks :) I'm looking into actually the use of thermocouple and see how effective it would be useful on the aircraft.

I've also done some extensive research into the ATREX so I already know that. But I'm still doing some more.

I can't say what technology would be used as I'm still trying to figure out but the heat created by the friction could be converted into electricity.

Well yeah, okay, actually, i think i might help you with that as a nuclear engineer i know a bunch about converting heat into electricity, i'll look over some of my notes and think something up i vaguely remember something relevant right now i need to look over my notes

Also for the fan: Then there would be the problem of actually starting up the fan creating a catch 22 scenario.

Well, you can start the fan with a jolt of energy and then let it rotate on its own, plus you can configure it to start and continue spinning from the incoming wind

Well yeah, okay, actually, i think i might help you with that as a nuclear engineer i know a bunch about converting heat into electricity, i'll look over some of my notes and think something up i vaguely remember something relevant right now i need to look over my notes



Well, you can start the fan with a jolt of energy and then let it rotate on its own, plus you can configure it to start and continue spinning from the incoming wind

1) Thanks a bunch. I apprieciate it a lot.

2) I'm thinking that I'll put a battery in the plane and use your idea about turning the blades with the wind. It would work, I already know that so that's not a problem. Thanks a lot. You'll get credit if this thing goes for production. ;)

bumpage :)

Hey, could you figure out how Toyota converts brake heat to electricity? If it's possible, that could be applied to this concept (and my own SSR. ;) )

Similar to something I was thinking up for an aircraft that I was going to make.

TCE: I'll look into that. Thanks for the tip.

Doujin: Oh my god, I had the great Doujin post in my thread! Shoot I need your autograph.

But really thanks for the compliment and are you becoming more active on NS again?

[OOC: Hey SU, not to hijack your thread or anything, but I finally posted my initial attack on the ATWDID thread. I'm in this now.]

[OOC: Hey SU, not to hijack your thread or anything, but I finally posted my initial attack on the ATWDID thread. I'm in this now.]

Huh? Where is it?

[OOC: It should be the last post of the sixth page.]

Possibly. There are times when my connection drops to worse than dial-up and I have nothing better to do.

I like it. ICly Shrak Aeronautics would be willing to contribute some technologies in exchange for production rights. They've been doing some work on getting electricity from friction (indirectly for use in a completely different scenario)
I would advise against having the fan wind proppelled because High G maneuvers and fast spins can effectively shut down your engine for a few seconds without some kind of sustainer (IIRC). Shrak also has considerable expertise with various exotic fuels, the favorite being an injection of liquid methane to boost the performance of standard jet fuel at altitude and at high speeds.
Other technologies include monocrystaline structures from metals such as titanium, iron, aluminum and steel. Monocrystaline structures offer increased precision, heat resistance and durability of engine parts while reducing weight.

I know some of how real jet engines and ramjets work.

You don't want to do the fan powered by the incoming wind. The whole point of having the fan is to accelerate the air to the point that it will work in the ramjet portion. If the wind is powering the fan, than all that happens is the fan spins, but the air has been slowed down since it lost energy making the fan spin. That would mean you would need to go faster to get the ramjet to work than with no fan at all.

Also, the electric power idea for the fan is not very feasable. Remember, most turbofan engines (if not all), the main fan is powered by turbines at the back of the engine. These turbines are powered by the supersonic exhaust gases rushing past, and drive the compressors and the fan via a shaft. With all the power you get from that (which is a lot), the air inside the engine is still subsonic, and you need the air going supersonic for the ramjet.

An electric motor powered fan is never going to have the type of power that an exhaust turbine powered fan will, you won't be able to get the air going supersonic.

What I would suggest is a system where you have the fan being powered by a turbine in the exhaust. You get the hole system going with a jolt of electricity powering an electric motor (it is feasable you could get a short burst to the fan speed you need this way, but not sustained). Once you have gotten supersonic flow within the engine (note, the aircraft can still be stationary, we are talking the air in the engine), the exhaust turbines will kick in to keep the fan going. While almost all current designs have subsonic airflow inside the engine, I happen to know the technology does exist to drive it in with a fan at supersonic speed.

You do loose a little thrust with this exhaust turbine. But only a little. THe gain you get is an engine that actually works.

I like it. ICly Shrak Aeronautics would be willing to contribute some technologies in exchange for production rights. They've been doing some work on getting electricity from friction (indirectly for use in a completely different scenario)
I would advise against having the fan wind proppelled because High G maneuvers and fast spins can effectively shut down your engine for a few seconds without some kind of sustainer (IIRC). Shrak also has considerable expertise with various exotic fuels, the favorite being an injection of liquid methane to boost the performance of standard jet fuel at altitude and at high speeds.
Other technologies include monocrystaline structures from metals such as titanium, iron, aluminum and steel. Monocrystaline structures offer increased precision, heat resistance and durability of engine parts while reducing weight.

IC: We thank you for your interest but we will have to decline. This is a joint-United Aerospace Corporation and Union Aerospace Engines Industries along with a government partnership with the nation of The Canadrian Empire. So we currently are not open to other partners. But we thank you nonetheless for your interest in the design.

OOC: The idea about getting the fan spinning from the incoming wind is just a brainstorming idea so I need feedback to whether or not implent it though there is argument against it so I probably will not unless someone actually brings something up to get rid of the disadvantage already stated..

Mannatopia:

1st) Alright I probably will throw this idea away.

2) If my idea for a friction to electric power works, then it will not be a problem, as a plane generates a lot of friction that could give tons of power. So I don't see that is a major problem if everything works out. Also, in a ramjet, you want air going subsonic not supersonic, as supersonic air is not very compressed unlike subsonic air, resulting in tremendous inefficiency. Your thinking about a SCRAMjet.

3) Note the above.

4) I know that, but I'm going to see if my idea works but if it doesn't, I really don't have much of a choice.

But thanks for all the input guys. :)

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Telling from the responses, I'm thinking that I might be able to put this on my F-77 Multi-Role Aircraft and create the Union-180-2005 family of ramfan engines. Things are looking good if Pushka and post what he found out about turning heat to electricity.

The electricity is produced using a very exotic way. Friction created by the aircraft by passing through air is gathered and converted to electricity. The electricity then powers the fan and the entire aircraft. I'm not really sure if this would work (actually I do but I'm not sure how effective it will be). That's why I'm asking people to comment before I put it in any aircraft that I design.

Would you be interested in obtaining prodrights to the Jay Industries G-Diffuser? It utilises energy from moving objects and converts the kinetic energy into electrical energy. Alternatively, we could give you the budget option, which is fundamentally a windmill. This would have the disadvantage that it is only powered by air power in flight, meaning that you would need to catapult the craft into the air glider-styling.

Would you be interested in obtaining prodrights to the Jay Industries G-Diffuser? It utilises energy from moving objects and converts the kinetic energy into electrical energy. Alternatively, we could give you the budget option, which is fundamentally a windmill. This would have the disadvantage that it is only powered by air power in flight, meaning that you would need to catapult the craft into the air glider-styling.

Were actually looking soley at developing our own system, though we thank you for your offer. If needed we will contact you if things go bad.

In terms of the electrical power fan, my problem is not with your ability to generate enough electricity, my problem is how you can use it. An electric motor of the power needed would have to be very large and heavy, both of which do not help you. (VERY LARGE).

As for the supersonic airflow, you are correct, the aiflow within a ramjet is subsonic. The problem is that the airflow going into the front of the ramjet has to be supersonic. That is why ramjets only work when the aircraft is already travelling at high, almost always supersonic, speeds. For your fan to get the ramjet going on the ground, the fan needs to get the air moving at supersonic speeds into the front of the ramjet portion. The ramjet itself then slows it down by the mechanics of how a normal ramjet works.

In terms of the electrical power fan, my problem is not with your ability to generate enough electricity, my problem is how you can use it. An electric motor of the power needed would have to be very large and heavy, both of which do not help you. (VERY LARGE).

As for the supersonic airflow, you are correct, the aiflow within a ramjet is subsonic. The problem is that the airflow going into the front of the ramjet has to be supersonic. That is why ramjets only work when the aircraft is already travelling at high, almost always supersonic, speeds. For your fan to get the ramjet going on the ground, the fan needs to get the air moving at supersonic speeds into the front of the ramjet portion. The ramjet itself then slows it down by the mechanics of how a normal ramjet works.

1) I'll be seeing about my options.

2) Sorry, misunderstanding on my part in your post.

Also one more thing, since this is a low-bypass fan that the Ramfan will be equipped with, I was thinking that it wouldn't require that big of a motor. And besides, the aircraft will have its motor inside the aircraft, not in the engine.

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talk about slow night

Also one more thing, since this is a low-bypass fan that the Ramfan will be equipped with, I was thinking that it wouldn't require that big of a motor. And besides, the aircraft will have its motor inside the aircraft, not in the engine.
hmm, just thinking, you would then need some sort of shaft that went from the aircraft to the engine, a gear system to turn that power 90 degrees to drive the fan. At the speed and power levels you would need, I'm thinking these parts might break pretty easily.

Here is an idea. You use this shaft to power the engine to get it started, then the shaft retracts away, leaving the fan to be powered by the exhaust turbines I talked about earlier. Once you have gotten the engine started, the exhaust turbine will power the fan fine. This way, the electric motor/shaft/gear assembly only needs to work for a short time each flight, greatly reducing wear and tear.

If you did something like that, I think you would have a feasable engine. One that is beyond current RL technology, for sure, but not far that far, maybe 5 or 10 years.

hmm, just thinking, you would then need some sort of shaft that went from the aircraft to the engine, a gear system to turn that power 90 degrees to drive the fan. At the speed and power levels you would need, I'm thinking these parts might break pretty easily.

Here is an idea. You use this shaft to power the engine to get it started, then the shaft retracts away, leaving the fan to be powered by the exhaust turbines I talked about earlier. Once you have gotten the engine started, the exhaust turbine will power the fan fine. This way, the electric motor/shaft/gear assembly only needs to work for a short time each flight, greatly reducing wear and tear.

If you did something like that, I think you would have a feasable engine. One that is beyond current RL technology, for sure, but not far that far, maybe 5 or 10 years.

Alright, I'm kind of trying to avoid the turbine as it will add extra weight that I don't want. I'm thinking that these parts could be constructed of some strong alloy or material that I haven't found yet (probably composite material).

Alright, I'm kind of trying to avoid the turbine as it will add extra weight that I don't want. I'm thinking that these parts could be constructed of some strong alloy or material that I haven't found yet (probably composite material).
the weight of this turbine in the back is really negligable compared to the rest of the engine components. You probably will be able to save more weight by having the turbine in the back, which will allow you to have a smaller electric motor since it only needs to operate to start the engine. Otherwise, I am just not seeing this engine even working.

Also, having this shaft for the electric motor into the engine will cause disruption in the airflow. Any disruption will cause the the engine's thrust to go down a lot. By being able to retract it and switch to the turbine, the airflow isn't disrupted during most of the engine operating time.

Alright, I'm kind of trying to avoid the turbine as it will add extra weight that I don't want. I'm thinking that these parts could be constructed of some strong alloy or material that I haven't found yet (probably composite material).
*cough* Monocrystalline structures*cough*

the weight of this turbine in the back is really negligable compared to the rest of the engine components. You probably will be able to save more weight by having the turbine in the back, which will allow you to have a smaller electric motor since it only needs to operate to start the engine. Otherwise, I am just not seeing this engine even working.

Also, having this shaft for the electric motor into the engine will cause disruption in the airflow. Any disruption will cause the the engine's thrust to go down a lot. By being able to retract it and switch to the turbine, the airflow isn't disrupted during most of the engine operating time.

Alright, until I get some more input, I'll just add a turbine in the back. That should be fine, and allow me to create my new aircraft.

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I've noticed that you bump to much. If you want to bump up the topic, at least post something useful instead of "bump."

Thanks.

I've noticed that you bump to much. If you want to bump up the topic, at least post something useful instead of "bump."

Thanks.

Oh sorry. I only do it with this thread and not other threads. The problem is that I want it to have as much coverage so that I don't get complaints about the engine when I post my new fighter up. I can then say that they should have posted here. But sorry, I won't try to bump as much. :)

He's right SU, you bump way to much on this thread, 2 times in 2 hours is too much and could be considered spamming or wanking your post count.

He's right SU, you bump way to much on this thread, 2 times in 2 hours is too much and could be considered spamming or wanking your post count.

That would be true if it was for every thread. But this is the only thread that I bump so often. I want it to get coverage so I don't have the Mish-11 debate thing all-over again in my sales thread. I want all those critics to post here and not in that thread saying why the ramfan won't work.

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Very interesting idea, I've been trying to figure out a way to make my aircraft have a dual-purpose Ramjet/Turbofan in order to give them high maximum velocities without sacrificing low-speed maneuverability as well as having the capability to provide static thrust.

Very interesting idea, I've been trying to figure out a way to make my aircraft have a dual-purpose Ramjet/Turbofan in order to give them high maximum velocities without sacrificing low-speed maneuverability as well as having the capability to provide static thrust.

Thanks and I think this is capable of doing all the things listed by you.

You can bump once every hour. But still, give it time - you can bump this thread all you want but htat wont compel people to post here.

You can bump once every hour. But still, give it time - you can bump this thread all you want but htat wont compel people to post here.

For most of the part, thats what I've been doing. :)