NationStates Jolt Archive


The SKC-Grovon Reveals Details About the Latest Masalan Series Heavy Battle Tank

Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 02:00
OOC:

I'm looking for a person to help me draft a suitable image to correspond with this new armor design; I'd like it to correspond and retain the themes seen in the original Kerga-Masalan (see the Schultarian Armor Guide for pictures / videos). If you would like to try the task of helping me visually design something along the description, I would be more than grateful for your industry.

Oh, and one more thing, a deep thanks to Doomingsland, Soviet Bloc, and Praetonia for the description template. It gave me something to do over the weekend when I wasn't whittling the rest of the day reading for my classes.

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IC:

DECLASSIFIED BY SKC-GROVON (SCHULTARIAN DEFENSE FORCES - ARMY DIVISION)

AATUH:
BASH-MAJ. GEN. RODAVIKEN (19 SPK, SDC 113)
CENT. DIR. ELLIOT M. SCHULTZ (29 OCK, SDC 115)

Kerga-Masalan (Mark III) Heavy Battle Tank
[Ga’voima Series]


Primary Offensive Weaponry:

At the core of the Ga’voima line of Masalan Heavy Battle Tanks, the Schultarian designed Kerga-Fortunalas (Mark VI) series of double-barreled 140 mm ETC smoothbore cannons bear significant resemblance to their earlier (Mark III) counterparts mounted on the Mark I Masalan tank series. For the most part, the general statistics and conventional firing operations bear little difference to their earlier Schultarian (as well a foreign) predecessors. With a barrel length of 40 calibers (5.6 meters) and operating on the same high efficiency plasma-based firing system as all other conventional ETC weapons, the K-Ft 06 offers highly stable accuracy and an average muzzle velocity increase of 20-30% over conventional chemical propellant weapons of the same caliber.

However, unlike most ETC cannons implemented throughout the world’s armories (with the exception of some significantly impressive examples from armories in Praetonia, Doomingsland, and Soviet Bloc), the K-Ft 06 cannon series utilizes a highly powerful and an extremely rugged COIL-based electromagnetic accelerator series to further amplify the already impressive muzzle velocities generated through conventional ETC reactions. Mounted on the barrel as an external sheath the COIL barrel enhancement system directly integrates into the Masalan’s hearty internal power plant. With proper implementation, the device can extend the total range of the weapon system by an additional 15% cumulative with the Kerga-Fortunalas’ already impressive damage ratios. Unlike most traditional electromagnetic rail based weapons, the COIL system on board the Kerga-Fortunalas dual cannon serves to enhance the kinetic energy of a round against structurally hardened targets while deliberately avoiding direct integration into the weapon system; should the mechanisms become damaged in battle or the system need to be disabled for other, power intensive, operations, the cannon can run on its ETC system without delays in functionality.

To manage the complexities of successfully loading, targeting, and placing the rounds from the K-Ft 06 system on target and with reasonable speed, the Masalan Ga’voima series upgraded its autoloader package to address concerns from the SKC-Grovon (Schultarian Defense Forces – Army) Heavy Armor Divisions. Compliant with SKC requirements for increased efficiency and ease of use, the autoloader’s more reliable electronic requirements and simplified mechanical design has increased the lifespan of the autoloader series to approximately 75 hours of sustained fire per barrel, or 45,000 shots while eliminating the need for an additional Technical Maintenance Operator to constantly oversee the loading operation. Several generations more advanced than the existing Kerga-Masalan series, the new ‘Pipont’ tandem automatic loader system now feeds at sustained rate of fire at 10 shots per minute per barrel, or 18 shots per minute when the autoloader system is in full double fire mode with a 45% average reduction in mechanical failure compared to earlier models. However, in tactical situations where concentrated fire is absolutely imperative, the system is capable of feeding rounds at the rate of 17 rounds per minute per barrel (30 rounds per minute in tandem fire mode).

This armored vehicle is also designed to provide ample short to moderate range cover in cooperation with mechanized and conventional infantry through suppressive fire of eight 80 mm long range grenade launchers mounted on the dorsal and ventral sides of the Masalan’s turret and loaded manually by the tank commander. Capable of independent targeting outside of the tank’s conventional firing computer, these cylindrical short mortars can lay down a significantly devastating series of high explosive, chemically caustic, diversionary (i.e. smoke and illuminating flares), or even less than lethal projectiles at ranges not feasible for the dual barrel cannon system of the Masalan to engage without causing severe unintentional damage to friendly military and civilian personnel or surrounding infrastructure.

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Primary Defensive Weaponry:

Addressing concerns surrounding the stopping power and range of the Schultarian-designed 12.7 mm Neckanoma Mark I machineguns in conventional anti-armor and anti-missile roles, the Ga’voima Series of Masalan Tanks represents a significant departure from SKC maxims of rigid standardization in order to provide the most reliable protection for the Tank’s crew. Citing the need for concentrated firepower as well as enhanced armor penetration, the SKC-Grovon dropped the ever ubiquitous K-Nck 01 from the tank’s defensive scheme to offer better success in defense of the Masalan in extended, multi vector, firefights. After nearly two years of constant computer simulation and practical combat simulation, the defensive weapon package of the Masalan Mark III was upgraded to replace the limited dual Neckanoma system on the Mark I series and now composes of one 15 x 125 mm long range autocannon and two 12.7 x 99 mm high speed chainguns. These guns, as true to Schultarian maxims of efficiency, are designed to operate in a variety of manual and electronic methods that can be set according to need by the Masalan’s crew or through the suggestions of the tank’s computerized target/kill interface.

As a response to SID reports of new combat vehicles manipulating ever more sophisticated and durable armor schemes, the 15 x 125 mm long range autocannon is designed to independently target lightly armored vehicles, moderately reinforced concrete emplacements (< 1 meter thickness), and heavily concealed infantry at long distances (< 2 kilometers). Cupola mounted, electronically integrated, and gyroscopically stabilized, this defensive weapon also serves as a significant threat to rotary and fixed wing aircraft in close proximity that are intercepted by the tank’s threat detection suite of independent and interconnected sensors.

Meanwhile the two 12.7 x 99 high speed chaingun weapon systems, mounted in the conventional coaxial and forward positions similar to their Mark I Masalan counterparts, are designed to offer the best missile and area denial protection available to outside of more expensive and logistically demanding systems such as Metalstorm or DREAD based weaponry. While the coaxial weapon is designed to provide suppressive fire as well as target saturation in complement to the 15 mm autocannon, the forward mount is designed to operate almost without human intervention. Designed as a means of last ditch target interception, the forward mounted 12.7 mm chaingun is specifically operated to maneuver within a search range of 270 degrees and a traverse range of negative 15 to positive 80 degrees in order to intercept all variety of aircraft and anti-tank missile weaponry with such rapidity independent of any decision making on the crew’s behalf. Although such interceptive measures, especially in the area of terminating anti-armor rockets, are inherently hard to perform and possess the somewhat low probability of less than 30% in most battlefield conditions, the probabilities achieved in stress testing the weapon have been more than enough to satisfy the senior command staff of the SKC-Grovon.

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Central Defensive Systems (Passive):

Central to the redesign of the Masalan series of Heavy Battle Tanks was the integration and successful utilization of several key developments in Schultarian civil technology, namely advances in the fields of high density silicon electronics and real time chemo-organic pigments. While the Ga’voima series is not a very stealthy vehicle due to its nearly full scale adoption of the Mark I Masalan chassis and turret system, several key additions to the external casing lend it considerable advantages in the field of combat. The surface coating of the Mark III system is not so much a singular layer of paint as it is a combination of RAM, dark matt, and highly sensitive organic camouflage, but while the radar absorbent material and black matt help to absorb and diffuse a portion of the energy used by enemy vehicles in their laser and radar rangefinders, the adoption of highly unusual and experimental chemo-organic chemicals give the Masalan a unique edge in combat. In the same way active electro-optical stealth is manipulated, the Masalan’s coating is altered with subtle electrical charges via an active computing station that keeps track of the tank’s visible surroundings. However, unlike many artificial options, this coating can retain its color and masking presence even if the power required to sustain the color change is diverted to other systems.

Adding to the significant advantages of the Masalan’s outer coating, the electronics suite of the Ga’voima series is also outfitted with the latest in Schultarian ECM technology. Essential to this package is the ’Nackthos’ electromagnetic cancellation suite, adopting a significant tool in providing radar and radio interference to enemy communications equipment at extreme ranges. Operating on the principle of disruption through overwhelming data returns, the ’Nackthos’ maintains passive scanning of all available EM frequencies detected as high traffic transmission signals not located within the suites memory as certified civilian or Schultarian communication bands until an enemy transmitter is intercepted. Once a frequency has been targeted and identified as hostile, the ECM system bombards the transmission station (and all other receiver stations) with high data volumes of white noise and useless streams of electronic data.

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Central Defensive Systems (Armor):

As in any heavy armored unit, the Masalan’s critical weapons platforms, electronics, and ultimately the crew would be rendered ineffective in combat without a substantial protective armor scheme, and the Ga’voima series does not disappoint. Designed first and foremost to resist the damages that could be inflicted by either combination high yield shape charge / sabot or by sabot - injected chemical rounds, the resistance posed by the Mark III’s defensive layering offers much greater protection than previously offered by any Schultarian vehicle.
Outer Layer - Explosive Reactive Armor: An array of specially engineered, Schultarian Deltex Ceramic, explosive shape charges are clustered around regions of the Masalan that are most vulnerable to HEAT class munitions. Specifically, these shape charges are customized to protect the areas of the Masalan most open to the sights of any enemy anti-armor crew, specifically the tank’s track skirting, forward armor plating, and turret sides are all fully encased in these reactive ceramic charges.


Secondary Layer - Blended Titanium - Aluminum Plating / Grounded Nickel Iron Plate: A Schultarian staple, and alternative to generic steel armor, this alloy plating has been perfected with well over fifty years of practical research and refinement in the alloying process. In successful application around the entirety of the tank, the alloy allows for lighter weight and increased speed while still retaining a very significant protective barrier. Though costly, it offers the same protective power, per unit size, as steel with 35% less mass to the tank. And the Nickel Iron Plate, while offering a limited amount of protection on its own, serves as a ground for the Masalan’s quaternary layer of defensive armor plating.


Tertiary Layer - Argon-Infused Tungsten / Carbon Fiber Honeycomb Framing: Designed as the first layer of high intensity protection in the Masalan armor scheme, this armor series was developed to slow down high velocity kinetic energy rounds and diffuse caustic chemical warheads well before penetrating the more resilient levels of the Ga’voima protective shells. While the honeycomb framing helps to alleviate the impact of pent up kinetic energy in both sabot and chemical rounds, the Argon-infused cells help to provide fire protection and an inert barrier of protection from a myriad of chemical anti-armor projectiles such as fluorine based weapons.


Quaternary Layer – Electrically Charged Copper Sheathing: In conjunction with the Masalan’s secondary layer of armor, this charged armor helps to diffuse (and sometimes completely placate) high energy sabot rounds through the process of electrical discharge. When a tank’s commander feels they and their crew are in danger, this layer is activated before engaging with incoming fire; should a shape charge or sabot-based round penetrate the first four layers of the tank’s armor reach this point, the electrical charge of the sheathing will come into contact with the Nickel Iron ground and help to diffuse the energy of the round before penetrating more critical elements of the armor layering. In effect, most infantry-based rocket propelled grenades and light anti-tank weapons are rendered to mere fractions of their full effect in combat situations.


Quinary Layer – Non-Infused Ballistic Ceramics: A layer of composite ceramic, specially forged and cast from Schultarian plasma waste disposal units, offers significantly heightened protection from kinetic energy weapons immediately after the charged copper plating. The ceramic structure, composed mainly of individual bricks held together in a solid titanium / tungsten mesh, offers drastic reduction in armor deformation from even the most severe of direct hits.


Senary Layer - Argon-Infused Tungsten / Carbon Fiber Honeycomb Framing


Septenary Layer – Depleted Uranium: The extreme density and rigidity of this material offers a significant layer of protection to capture any high velocity fragments that might have passed through the first seven layers of armor.


Octonary Layer – Cadmium / Lead-Infused Ballistic Ceramics: In addition to the kinetic protection offered by the ceramic, the high densities of cadmium and lead impregnated within this layer of armor coating helps to serve as a critical radiation-absorbing buffer. While specifically offering a greater amount of protection against stray neutron radiation, the small amount of lead present within the ceramic blocks drastically cut gamma radiation levels from even the most intense of sources down to levels tolerable enough for several hours of prolonged exposure.


Nonary Layer - Blended Titanium - Aluminum Plating / Padded Fiberglass: Designed to collect any remaining fragments that might have passed through the other eight layers and could potentially affect the crew or the internal components of the Masalan.

The Approximate RHA Armor Values (and Their Distributions) are as Follows:
Front: 2,425 mm (KE) / 2,895 mm (HEAT)
Turret: 1,970 mm (KE) / 2,500 mm (HEAT)
Side: 1,310 mm (KE) / 1,570 mm (HEAT)
Rear: 700 mm (KE) / 950 mm (HEAT)

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Electronics (Firing Solutions and General Combat Awareness):

Communications:

(Voice / Data) On the Battlefield

The primary method of Schultarian battlefield communication is an enhanced form of Bluetooth wireless networking technology; a three watt transmitter connected to both the tank's computers and basic radio transmitters possesses a range of 5 to 7 kilometers. Any data that passes though this system is carefully compressed and masked with a 256 bit encryption system to prevent a majority of battlefield espionage activities. Every armored unit in the SKC possess this communications technology, however this is only utilized in areas where communications security is essential or stealth must be preserved to insure mission success.

(Voice / Data) On Patrol or in Peacekeeping

The major detraction of this enhanced Bluetooth wireless system is also its greatest feature: limited range. While this prevents data from being intercepted by enemy forces dozens of kilometers away, it also prevents communication from detached mechanized patrols. As a backup to the battlefield communications system, a standard Frequency / Amplitude Modulation radio transmitter is essential equipment for each vehicle. However, this is only used in circumstances of low threat or emergency communication only.

Target Identification:

(Long Distance Identification) Beyond Standard Visual Range

Each Masalan Mark III is equipped with a standard RADAR suite primarily designed from the acquisition of ground based targets. Utilizing a combination of GPS and the networking capabilities of the Schultarian Bluetooth technology, individual armor units effective become a part of a larger interception grid. If armored groups are in contact with Kerga-Bieorn squadrons the grid expands offering real time three dimensional radar images of the battlefield. LIDAR is also utilized, but only by the operators of the primary cannons on each armored vehicle. Connected to the central processing units of each tank, these suites can effectively track hundreds of square kilometers of battlefield terrain; however, the systems for disseminating and processing this information on a tank by tank basis is still classified.

To prevent cases of friendly fire incidents, each armored vehicle is equipped with a Schultarian IFF anti fratricide system. A small device that's roughly the size of a cheap wristwatch, it is connected to the communications systems and the firing computers of each armored vehicle. Every device possesses a unique 2 kilobyte code, and "friendly" units are easily identified by their signature. Not only does this technology severely reduce the possibility of friendly fire, but also serves as a method of cataloguing each armored unit in the confusion of battle.

Each weapons operator is equipped with standard suites of Infra Red, Fifth Generation Night Vision, Passive X-Ray Analysis, and Optical Magnification up to a power of 64 times normal magnification. In addition to this package, each armored unit also has a Schultarian holograph-capable millimeter band radar imager (third generation) mounted into the Masalan’s turret cupola .

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Power Plant:

Like all other Schultarian armored vehicles, the Ga’voima series of Masalan Heavy Battle Tanks are powered by the 2,800 hp PDGt - HPMf794 (Peldaer) Multi-Fuel Turbine engine. Theoretically, given the relative mass of the Mark III Masalan series, this engine can produce enough power to drive such a vehicle up to a possible speed of 65 kilometers per hour on an ideal surface for an extended period of time. Although it runs considerably hotter and with a more sluggish acceleration rather than conventional diesel or gasoline motors of the same size and power, the Peldaer offers considerable advantages in terms of mechanical simplicity where the moving parts of the engine (i.e. the compressor blades and their corresponding connecting gear ratios) number far less than in comparable piston engines. Another positive aspect of the turbine engine is its logistical success in consuming any available combustible liquid, as stated from the Designwerks description…

”A positive result of the engine's propulsion system is its incredible fuel tolerance; while most piston driven engines require a specific fuel mixture, the Peldar is tolerant of any combustible hydrocarbon substance. In several unorthodox tests the SKC, utilizing three retrofitted heavy battle tanks, were able to conduct combat maneuvers operating on a mixture of liquid methane and perfume. Instead of relying on the power of a reciprocating piston, the Peldaer operates on the concept of an internal pressurized turbine concept. In addition to its nearly limitless fuel tolerances, the ratio of power versus weight with engines of this caliber is far more beneficial than with any known piston driven engine.”

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Essential Statistics:
Manufacturer: The State Industries of Schultaria Prime: Designwerks (Kerga-Mechkana Division)
Primary Offensive / Defensive Weaponry (Cannon / Gun) - Kerga Nassubu Centralized Armories
Primary Defensive Weaponry (Grenade Launchers) - Kerga Prmus Class III Explosives Division
Armor Scheme / Chassis Design - Tox'somino-Volmonious Armorwerks
Automated Computing Systems / Communications Equipment / Battlefield Sensors - Schultarian Diode Company


Crew:
Commander / Coaxial Gunner
Driver / Communications Operator
Turret Operator / Primary Weapons Gunner
Cupola Gunner / Electronic Systems Analyst


Dimensions:
Length: 8.5 Meters (Hull) | 14.1 Meters (With Main Cannon)
Width: 3.7 Meters
Height 2.5 Meters (Turret Roof) | 2.85 Meters (Top of Cupola)
Ground Clearance: .685 Meters


Weight: 74.25 Metric Tons Fully Loaded and Operable for Combat


Weapons Layout:
2 x 140 mm Smoothbore COIL-Assisted Kerga-Fortunalas Mark VI [K-Ft 06] Cannons | Ammunition Storage: 60 Rounds [HEAT / Sabot / Chemical Anti-Armor / Generic Kinetic / Guided Shell]
1 x (15 x 125 mm) Autocannon (Cupola Mount) | Ammunition Storage: 1,300 Rounds [Conventional / High Explosive / Tracer]
2 x (12.7 x 99 mm) Chainguns (Coaxial / Forward Mounts) | Ammunition Storage: 4,000 Rounds [Conventional]
8 x 80 mm Long Range Grenade Launchers | Ammunition Storage: 32 Rounds [Fragmentation / Thermobaric / (Mustard / Chlorine / Phosgene) Gas / Smoke / Tear Gas / High Intensity Flare]


Engine: Peldaer (PDGt - HPMf794) High Power Multi-fuel Engine (Gas Turbine, 5 Speed Automatic Transmission [4 forward, 1 reverse], Liquid Cooled)


Speed:
Theoretical Maximum (Ideal Paved Conditions): 65 Kilometers per Hour
Theoretical Maximum (Cross Country Battlefield Conditions): 45 Kilometers per Hour
Theoretical Maximum (River Traversing): 18 Kilometers per Hour


Range: 425 Kilometers at Ideal Operating Speed


Cost:
To the Government of Schultaria Prime: $13,750,000 per Unit
The Macabees
27-09-2005, 02:28
[This is more to bump a good tank description, but other than that, nice piece of armor. I, myself, wouldn't purchase it merely because of operational differences; for what I role play, I think it would be useless. Nonetheless, there are others that would do well with such a tank. So, just props for that.]
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 05:45
A BUMP for more comments / open viewing.
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 14:49
I guess no one else really wants to comment on the vehicle, but I'll BUMP the thread nonetheless.
Sharina
27-09-2005, 15:03
I guess no one else really wants to comment on the vehicle, but I'll BUMP the thread nonetheless.

I find your dual 140mm cannons interesting.

You may have seen my original Paragon-I tank, or the new Paragon-II. Both employ a single cannon with dual barrels. One 130mm ETC and one 80mm Multi-Purpose barrel. The 80mm Multi-Purpose will allow my tank to be able to fire any kind of round, let it be canisters, grenades, explosives, secondary KE rounds, or pretty much anything else weapon-wise.

I remember that people said that a dual ETC cannon would tear the turret off the tank? How are you able to accomplish this? Through your COIL system? I'm curious. :)

Also, I'm trying to develop my Paragon-II to be a hovertank based off hovercraft technology instead of the "true" hover tech as in sci-fi shows.
Yallak
27-09-2005, 15:07
Not bad. Not too bad at all. You've put a good deal of effort into making this tank and it shows well. Nice job!!

IC of course my own MBT's are more than sufficient so i like the Macabees would not require any.
Axis Nova
27-09-2005, 15:11
Weight: 74.25 Metric Tons Fully Loaded and Operable for Combat


Seriously... just... NO.

You people need to realize that if you want a bigger gun and better protection, it WILL WEIGH MORE.

Especially if you're claiming metric tons which makes it even more ludicrous since that's less than a standard imperial ton of 2000 pounds, making it less than an M1A1!
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 15:18
A good question Sharina about the main weaponry, and I'll answer it forthright to the best of my ability. In my examinations of such claims, I've found that the arguments concerning the production of extensive internal damage from double-barreled armor units stems from the cannons firing simultaneously instead of within a sustainable firing pattern sequence.

To insure that the cannons are never fully able to fire in a potentially devastating dual fashion, the timing complexities of the autoloader system, combined with the sequencing of the main firing control computer, prevent the Fortunalas cannons from firing any earlier than two seconds after the other cannon has delivered its payload. Consider the main cannonry of the Kerga-Masalan as a double barreled shot gun with a hidden trick trigger that only pops out after the first shot is fired, preventing both shells to be ignited at the same time. That metaphor is probably the best way I can describe the firing system of the Masalan-Ga’voima Series without going into an extensive exploration of timing sequences and tandem mechanical systems.
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 15:24
Axis Nova...

Then where were you when I made the claims for my original Kerga-Masalan which has roughly the same statistics, sans the highly extensive armor package, and it weighs roughly 1.5 tons less than its predecessor?

And, to cut extensive weight, look at the armor schema; instead of just depending on extreme amounts of high gauge, high mass, steel I opted to try and utilize lighter alloys that offer the same protection but with less total mass to the tank. This alloying not only is employed throughout the armor of the vehicle, but is essential in cutting non essential weight in the main chassis and drive train of the vehicle.

Oh, and since you might have some incorrect estimates concerning metric masses, the weight of the Masalan is 81.675 Imperial tons by my estimates...

1 kilogram ~ 2.2 Pounds
1 Metric Ton -> 1000 kilograms ~ 2200 Pounds
~ 2200 Pounds > 2000 Pounds = 1 Imperial Ton
MassPwnage
27-09-2005, 15:28
ooc: IMO, Twin 140s are going to weigh at a whole lot. Let's see what's going to be heavier as compared to a standard single gun tank.

What Weighs More:

*The extra gun itself.

*The stabilization for the extra gun

*The extra power for the 2nd gun

*The mount for the gun.

*Heavier autoloader

*Larger turret with more armor.

*Larger FCS computers

*Cooling and electric reclaimation systems for the extra weapon

So yea... I've seen single gun tanks with only 120mm caliber that weigh more than this thing. Please, increase the weight, or delete a gun.
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 15:58
Let's go over the arguments one by one, and for some of them I will agree but others I find are trying to reference my tank to vehicles that are decidedly a little bit less advanced than the PMT region I tend to reside.


*The extra gun itself.

Factoring the alloy schema, the total mass of each individual gun is cut by approximately 30 to 35% in most cases; although it produces a mass increase per se, the total increase in mass would be only 30 to 40% of a normal single barreled system. Granted that is still extra mass, but not as severe as completely doubling the cannon's mass completely.


*The stabilization for the extra gun
*The mount for the gun.
*Cooling and electric reclaimation systems for the extra weapon

The cannons are connected to each other as in a double barreled shotgun, that is to say side by side in a unified carriage, as opposed to two individual cannons mounted in their own independent assemblages. Both cannons operate with the same joint stabilization systems and work on a slightly heavier mount, but it is not to say that this system doesn't have its own problems. I know that the cannon's mount can be damaged extensively or the high pressure coolant flow designed to keep the two barrel system could be damaged in an intense firefight; remember, this is an RP'ed nation that hasn't experienced foreign war in over a century trying its best to keep things simple (sometimes at the expense of ruggedness).


*The extra power for the 2nd gun

Two thousand, eight hundred horsepower is a bit much to have this tank only going 60 kilometers an hour, the rest of the engine's immense power is stepped down for safe usage by the vehicle's electrical components.


*Heavier autoloader

Not a heavier autoloader, a dual one where I tried my best to eliminate all extraneous redundancy; it helps to provide that extra bit of failure in RP's to make it that much more interesting in combat. That additional part of the weight scheme I will agree with.


*Larger turret with more armor.

This tank, as I envision it, bares only the vaguest resemblance to any "modern" armored vehicle of the modern era, and to base the turret system of this weapon system to any American system would be highly erroneous. Adjusting the geometry of the turret allows for a considerable amount of space to be freed up in the installation of other weapon hard points. By "flattening" the front of the tank's turret (at the expense of the protection that angled armor can deliver), an extra cannon can be mounted without radical alteration of the external vehicle dimensions.


*Larger FCS computers

Larger does not always translate into more firing power, especially with advanced computers; efficiency can come from far more complex and smaller micro devices, of which the RP'ed nation of Schultaria Prime is quite adept at producing (See my state storefronts for some examples).


So, in your educated opinion, given the factors that I have just described above I would like to see your interpretation of the armored vehicle's weight.
Russkya
27-09-2005, 16:45
This vehicle, although not suitable for how I RP, is very well designed. That armour package is.. extensive, to say the least.

Nicely done!
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 18:33
As a generic clarification of the Masalan's role in the Schultarian Armed Services...

The Masalan's main role reflects the true Schultarian meaning of "Defense Forces"; these tanks are designed as mobile platforms designed to provide long to extreme range heavy fire support while the Kerga-Lubrai (Search my posts for the Schultarian Armory Thread) series of light battle tanks serve as the nation's primary offensive assault vehicles. These units are designed mainly to provide the Schultarian nation with a means of high volume cannon support against large scale armored invasion forces and not the other way around. I know they are too large and possess too much mass for a successful armored invasion on foreign soil, but that is the primary doctrine of the United Socialist States of Schultaria Prime; our foreign policy relies on our willingness to flex out extensive economic dominance in the fields of computing devices, manufacturing industries, and other civil engineering fields first and our ability to conduct foreign military operations last.
Sharina
27-09-2005, 19:08
OOC:

I'm a defensive-minded nation exactly like yours, but I'm struggling trying to come up with innoative and original ideas. I wish I had your talent and ability to come up with excellent technical designs, not just with the tanks, but with civilian stuff as well.

I notice that whenever I try to create something new, people always slam me, but whenever you create something new, very few people slam you. :confused:

I also notice that whenever you or I try to RP something out not war related, it dies out. This has frustrated me quite a bit- remember TAPRES, the Eliamodvey (sp?) RP, the Amassing Hunger RP, etc. Whenever you start a RP up, I'm always there, but I kind of wish there were more people willing to do RP's like ours. :(

Just wanted to vent my feelings a bit.
Schultaria Prime
27-09-2005, 23:00
I understand where you come from Sharina and it seems that on any given day the main themes most people grasp for are war, imperialism, anti $NAME, anti $PARTY, death, fascism, arrogant dictatorships, death, death, death, etc. ad infinitum. It's not to say that these topic themes aren't and can't be underestimated in some role plays, but I feel that those who just choose to work merely with the affairs of the nation-as-military don't see the full depth of their states. A country is more than just a homogeneous and anonymous collection of military technology and grand battles, many nations are based on a rich tapestry of myriad experiences and histories that make it larger that what it seems. For every main story, there are hundreds of little details and facets that glimmer in the light of the written word; economy, religiosity, and society all play their part in making a nation that more "fleshed out" than its bare statistical components.

Who's to say that writing about the life of a weaver who makes it big as the leader of an imposing cult or the story of a government's downfall through Nixonian-style espionage can not be as interesting a story as a faceless army of a hundred thousand strong marching to defend against the machinations of a megalomaniacal oligarchy? What provides me motivation in my role plays are the explorations of history not as a collection of struggles amongst a select few with swords, pikes, bows, and automatic rifles but as a collection of very cautious plotters, schemers, egalitarians, and dictators playing their parts to try and scrawl their names on the pages of public consciousness.

Of course one can not include every detail in a story, but I've tried to do my best to stay away from mere wars and conflict in order to offer a little something extra of my nation's development. While I certainly don't think my work is completely original, I do take pride in the fact that in over one thousand five hundred posts, of which the process of bringing up posts does seem to occupy a goodly deal of that count, less than fifteen have ever been devoted to the development of armed conflict (and of those fifteen only four have actually resulted in fighting). However, since I try to completely disavow the implementation of broad scale fighting (even to the extent that I won't even sell offensive weaponry for both OOC and IC reasons) I feel that my achievements tend to be marginalized or otherwise ignored.

I feel it is because of this marginalization, more than any other consideration for descriptive capacities or otherwise, that very few people seem to respond to my developments. Although I can understand the frustrations you have, especially since (after reading every new piece of military technology you've ever developed Sharina) it seems many posters would rather have a feeding frenzy with your designs than actually offering any credible, or equally original, solutions. Also, just as in your role plays, I am just as frustrated by the lack of response to any of my work; I know that for every post I try and produce, I go through the scene in my head with no less than five different iterations trying to pick out little quirks and descriptions that help to liven up the setting as well as the perceptions of my main characters. Though I wish more people would be willing to accept alternatives to blatant conflict, as I know several other nations have made serious forays into the deep worlds of long term political intrigue and economic implications, it seems like the business of actively seeking man-made death and dying will be the primary source of entertainment for many a month to come.

Oh, and if you wouldn't mind Sharina, do you have an email address that you wouldn't mind sharing on TG? I'd love to give you the gift of music as my welcome to the land of the audible for your big day on Monday; even if the sounds come in patchy, blurry, or perhaps without the constant clarity of the written word, I think you'll find that writing with a personal soundtrack in your head is an incredible experience.
MassPwnage
28-09-2005, 00:21
ooc: IMO though, i just simply think it should be heavier than its quoted weight.

It might not hit 100 tons, but it would get close. It'll definitely be above 80 however, even for PMT.
Schultaria Prime
28-09-2005, 04:05
Now, just for clarification on my part MassPwnage, I'm assuming I should adjust my weight in Metric tonnage to 80 plus as opposed to standard Imperial tons? I just want to know precisely on that example, because right now the Masalan edges a little over 81 and one half tons Imperial (if my conversion factors are correct).
MassPwnage
28-09-2005, 04:08
ooc; 85 metric tons maybe. That should be a good number. It's a decent tank, I just think a heavier tank would be needed simply to fire both of the fairly large guns at a rapid rate.
Schultaria Prime
28-09-2005, 18:31
A BUMP for the Afternoon.
Schultaria Prime
30-09-2005, 20:50
Outside of the mass issue, are there any interests piqued by the Masalan concept?

Did I spend my free time during the weekend in vain?

Am I only a marginal figure on this board because I never actually perform conflict RP's?

I BUMP this thread to find out from you, the reader!
Democratic Colonies
30-09-2005, 21:03
[OOC]

I'm fairly certain that you have no idea who I am, but I most definately like the tank. The desciption, I think, is very well detailed and just as importantly, well organized.

If it's MT and not PMT as MassPwnage suggested, I'd be interested in buying production rights IC. You don't have any purchasing information though - is this a domestic design only?
Scellia
30-09-2005, 21:11
OOC: I would say that for the weight it would have to be PMT since it is using materials that have equal strength to the current advanced armors (Chobham etc.) but have several times (4-7) less mass. Plus the guns are incredibly light for their caliber, it would be 2-3 times heavier if it were MT at least.
Sharina
30-09-2005, 21:44
[OOC]

I'm fairly certain that you have no idea who I am, but I most definately like the tank. The desciption, I think, is very well detailed and just as importantly, well organized.

If it's MT and not PMT as MassPwnage suggested, I'd be interested in buying production rights IC. You don't have any purchasing information though - is this a domestic design only?

Schultaria doesn't sell weapons- its part of his national policy.
Isselmere
30-09-2005, 21:52
As many have put, the tonnage is much too low. Ceramics are heavy, titanium in quantity is heavy (though not so heavy as steel), and a supplementary gun of the same size will increase the weight remarkably.

The width of the vehicle would be considerably greater (dual guns - you need to have sufficient space to load, unload the spent shell casing, and reload), especially considering the layers of armour placed on the vehicle, the autocannon (and ammunition) will increase the weight noticeably unless it is one of those lightweight, low rate of fire types.

The length of the vehicle must only be the hull length, otherwise it is too short.

The river crossing speed is too high. Expect 12 km/h at best.

Two guns are unnecessary and likely to cause more logistical and mechanical headaches than necessary. An autoloader or semi-automatic loader would increase the rate-of-fire to an acceptable level without requiring the additional complexity.

Two co-axial machine guns are not necessary. Either use a heavier co-axial gun, like everyone else seems to do, get rid of one, or give the second to another crewmember.

Dual long-range grenade launchers. Don't know whether that's necessary at all. I would suggest going for a turret-roof mounted anti-missile grenade launcher (4-cell) and countermeasure grenade launchers arranged on the turret. 70mm is likely all you would require and it is a standard countermeasure round. Alternatively, you could use a hybrid machine-gun/grenade launcher overhead weapon system for the commander, with a supplementary machine-gun station for the loader or gunner.

That's all I can think of right now.
Democratic Colonies
30-09-2005, 22:01
Schultaria doesn't sell weapons- its part of his national policy.

I see. Well, it's well written stuff, sale or no sale, in my (non-technically oriented) opinion.
Schultaria Prime
30-09-2005, 23:48
To answer Isselmere's comments I would like to allude to Praetonia's Hoplite Series of Main Battle Tanks, a counterpart of which I made as a primary reference while creating the designs of my own combat system, as well as some visual aids and a small amount of math for basic calculations to help assist in hopefully dispelling some miscommunication and misinterpretations as well as refining some issues for further debate.


As for the tonnage issues, they have been addressed (and I am in the process of trying to figure out exactly how much additional weight I might need to add). Should you have any direct input to remedy this issue, I would be most appreciative of any direct figures you may be able to allude or tease out given your experience in such designs.


In terms of width, I recently did some image comparisons and noted a discrepancy in my scaling by about 1 meter compared to the human figure I used in earlier references. The new refined width is 4.7 meters, or 15 feet 5 inches by my on the spot conversion.


I'm not entirely sure how to address the following concern...

The length of the vehicle must only be the hull length, otherwise it is too short.

only to say that you must be willing to address it in Praetonia's Hoplite Mark II and Sarzonia's Jaguar design templates; both of them address the actual length of the barrel (outside of the turret) as an extraneous length compared to the hull (length of the chassis, treads, and resultant armor).


The river crossing speed was determined by taking Praetonia's Hoplite II 12 mi/h fording speed and reducing it ever so slightly to account for the mass defect in my Masalan series. Once the new tonnage is converted, the fording speed will also conversely be adjusted.


In addressing the dual cannon issue, please take into account the primary role of this armored vehicle is to conduct large volume defensive fire operations (as noted in an earlier post). However, Schultarian autoloader technology (in a singular-mounted cannon system) is mechanically efficient but combatively poor in terms of speed. Often Schultarian autoloaders and their electronic components operate at a speed approximately 60 to 80% of foreign systems, but (due to the nature of Schultarian research) work very effectively despite their speed issues as part of a tandem or larger parallel mechanical system. Also, the dual cannon system allows for the pre-loading and firing of specific sequences of shots (stored in autoloader carousel sequences) based on tactical need with greater rapidity than single cannon systems.

Concerning the machine gun and grenade launcher emplacements, I think you might be mislead by the way I wrote my post. As clarification, take a look at the Masalan Mark I's weapon emplacements (modified for the Mark III).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/emschultz/MachineGunExamination.jpg

Each gun has a specific primary function designed to enhance its defensive effectiveness and physical preservation the midst of combat. However, after examining the caliber and sizes of the primary weaponry in the earliest stages of design, I became concerned about the tank's ability to effectively defend itself in theaters of war where the effects of its main cannons might prove to be a nuisance or even deadly to friendly infantry, civilians, or generic property at close ranges. To circumvent the issue, the decision was made to mount longer-range grenade launchers to combat enemy presences where the 140 mm ETC guns would prove to be far too unwieldy or tactically unpalatable such as entrenched positions in buildings of significant public cultural value or in urban settings with a high amount of unfortunate civilians in the crossfire (where an anesthetic gas grenade would prove more effective and safer than a multi-kilogram DU sabot knocking down apartment buildings).

I hope that helps to address all the issues thus far, and I appreciate your comments.
Scellia
01-10-2005, 00:19
OOC: It depends, because I can't remember if you said, if this is PMT or MT.
Isselmere
01-10-2005, 07:09
Barrel length, or, more precisely, barrel overhang is not extraneous but an additional length that needs to be considered for transportation (barrels need either to be locked forward or aft in order to reduce strain on the barrel and the gun elevation and traverse mechanisms thereby prolonging barrel life.

For a two barrel turret, check out the Russian twin 130mm naval guns (AK-130-MR, I think). That should give a good idea about proper turret weight, to which you need to factor in at least a quarter more weight for the ETC equipment, but which should give some idea about your turret weight.

For the autoloader, the new Merkava Mk.4 tank uses a semi-automatic loader that seems to serve what you need.

I hadn't noticed they were ETC guns before. Yikes. I've a tank with a single conventional 140mm barrel (L21 Kodiak (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8068944&postcount=8)) with far less armour that weighs the same.

The positioning of certain devices, such as the anti-missile machine gun, aren't great as that particular weapon has a very poor firing arc. To have a proper anti-missile system, it needs to have the best firing arc, which is atop the turret. A grenade-based anti-missile system might work better: as an explosive, fragmenting response (rather than one that requires direct hits to disable or destroy the attacking missile) it does not require as much precision, but it will be accurate. As for the greater threat to allied infantry from using grenades rather than the machine gun, well, machine gun bullets spraying about will be as dangerous.

It might be best to avoid NS designs initially and investigate RL designs first, both to find out what's wrong with them in comparison to NS designs as well as to see where NS designs are impractical.
Schultaria Prime
01-10-2005, 08:09
Barrel length, or, more precisely, barrel overhang is not extraneous but an additional length that needs to be considered for transportation (barrels need either to be locked forward or aft in order to reduce strain on the barrel and the gun elevation and traverse mechanisms thereby prolonging barrel life.

* Thus, that is why the length (with barrels) issue has already been addressed; fact of the matter is, both my light and heavy tanks use the same chassis overlay and external design save for the internal components composing the primary cannon and machine guns. I think the point is fairly moot in this case as the barrel overhang has been previously stated. However, in the off chance that the turret is extracted and a suitable contemporary is affixed in the same position with a different primary weapons system, then the length will be adjusted with the hull serving as the base length.


It might be best to avoid NS designs initially and investigate RL designs first, both to find out what's wrong with them in comparison to NS designs as well as to see where NS designs are impractical.

* As has been stated in virtually every technical weapons debate on I.I. since time immemorial: Real Life is either ~ (on a good day) or != to NS practical concerns. I do understand your and appreciate your concerns on its potential fallacies. However, investigating RL life counterexamples provides only the smallest of direct correlations with the tactical doctrines, technical development, or political realities of the Schultarian nation. Also, the policies and research goals of the real world of the still do not address the problems of trying to compete with the self-designed weapons systems of other nations in the RP world, especially those with ones who have outlined fairly significant progress in the creation of high-intensity alternative weaponry systems.


The positioning of certain devices, such as the anti-missile machine gun, aren't great as that particular weapon has a very poor firing arc. To have a proper anti-missile system, it needs to have the best firing arc, which is atop the turret. A grenade-based anti-missile system might work better: as an explosive, fragmenting response (rather than one that requires direct hits to disable or destroy the attacking missile) it does not require as much precision, but it will be accurate. As for the greater threat to allied infantry from using grenades rather than the machine gun, well, machine gun bullets spraying about will be as dangerous.

*The best part about the tank is that these flaws are primarily intentional. I know that the forward mount anti-missile machine gun can not engage targets from the rear quarter and a majority of the turret sides, and that's exactly why I kept its placement. Remember, you are talking about a nation who has not committed ground troops to any foreign theater of war in over a century and a half and I want the design to show good intentions but with some problems as to implementation. With the automated anti-missile chain gun, you can see the glaringly obvious problem in many Schultarian tacticians of viewing armored combat against infantry as a one-dimensional enterprise (something that can just as easily be addressed, but provides that much more realism in combat).

In addition, I think you might still be mistaken as to what the grenade launcher is supposed to replace at closer ranges. They are supposed to replace the Main (i.e. dual 140 mm ETC) Cannons and not the Defensive (i.e. 12.7 x 99 mm / 15 x 125 mm) Machine Guns. The grenade weapons are tactically designed to provide suppression in areas where the 140 mm cannons (as if they aren't already for the defensive job they're assigned to) would provide far too much force projection in sensitive areas.

The same can be said about the autoloader, but this is more attributed to the pride that Schultarian engineers have on designing their own weapons systems and improving their own specific needs through devoted research. It all boils down to politics just like in any other nation; with the passage of the Indigenous Armament Act by the Schultarian National Assembly some 5 years prior to this vehicle's development, all automated weapons systems for the Schultarian Defense Forces had to be of Schultarian origin and design immediately following the passage of the Act. It was meant as a way for combat units to be produced "For Schultarians, by Schultarians" instead of "For Schultarians, by a producer who knows its weaknesses and sells these vehicles to nations unfriendly to our interests."


For a two barrel turret, check out the Russian twin 130mm naval guns (AK-130-MR, I think). That should give a good idea about proper turret weight, to which you need to factor in at least a quarter more weight for the ETC equipment, but which should give some idea about your turret weight.

I hadn't noticed they were ETC guns before. Yikes. I've a tank with a single conventional 140mm barrel (L21 Kodiak) with far less armour that weighs the same.

*In terms of the armor scheme, a higher RHA does not always exactly translate into an immediate and sudden increase in mass; in my investigations, most Ceramics (with the exceptions of carbides) are approximately half the density of steel possessing the same volume with Titanium at just a little under 57% of the density of its ferrous counterpart. While it might not be enough to justify the mass of the armored unit entire, it is enough to keep the mass of the tank to below 90 metric tons (what I would feel as a reasonable maximum mass for the unit given the road conditions of the Schultarian nation). Also, in regards to the naval turret you featured, I don't know if a naval artillery, designed to be mounted on a vessel, fire over 22 kilometers, and be manned by a minimum of six crew would be the best way to draw reference to an armored unit with different tactical considerations and logistical requirements, but I'll see what I can draw from the references at hand.
Isselmere
01-10-2005, 08:40
* As has been stated in virtually every technical weapons debate on I.I. since time immemorial: Real Life is either ~ (on a good day) or != to NS practical concerns.
The problem with NS designs is that they are generally impractical. By viewing RL examples, you see what RL engineers have tried, why it fails or why it works. Then you take what works, add the NS factor, and there you are. I'm well familiar with the I.I. debates and have long found the "it doesn't need to be realistic" argument to murder decent RPing.

*The best part about the tank is that these flaws are primarily intentional.
There are easier ways of intentionally adding flaws. Kriegograd is probably the expert on the overt flaw. Most importantly, engineers usually can spot obvious problems. Perhaps you could give the anti-missile MG an adequate firing arc on the aft and sides -- the weakest parts of the armour -- but which is horribly impeded on the forward arc.

Other problems could be that the tracks inadequately dispense the weight so that it sinks into the ground and pavement.

In addition, I think you might still be mistaken as to what the grenade launcher is supposed to replace at closer ranges. They are supposed to replace the Main (i.e. dual 140 mm ETC) Cannons and not the Defensive (i.e. 12.7 x 99 mm / 15 x 125 mm) Machine Guns.
Grenades are generally indirect fire weapons, tank guns are high velocity direct fire weapons. The best corollary to the tank guns would be the autocannon.

*In terms of the armor scheme, a higher RHA does not always exactly translate into an immediate and sudden increase in mass; in my investigations, most Ceramics (with the exceptions of carbides) are approximately half the density of steel possessing the same volume with Titanium at just a little under 57% of the density of its ferrous counterpart. While it might not be enough to justify the mass of the armored unit entire, it is enough to keep the mass of the tank to below 90 metric tons (what I would feel as a reasonable maximum mass for the unit given the road conditions of the Schultarian nation). Also, in regards to the naval turret you featured, I don't know if a naval artillery, designed to be mounted on a vessel, fire over 22 kilometers, and be manned by a minimum of six crew would be the best way to draw reference to an armored unit with different tactical considerations and logistical requirements, but I'll see what I can draw from the references at hand.
Usually, increased RHA does mean increased weight especially if it's based on the same materials. Titanium alloys do permit weight and volume savings, but only to an extent (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9705/Montgomery-9705.html). With nine levels of protection, with two guns, with a 2000+ horsepower engine, the beast will weigh at least 90-tonnes. At least.

It may sound like I'm being picky, especially as I'm stressing RL over NS, but hopefully this provides you some useful assistance.