NationStates Jolt Archive

With Colombia taking control over Venezuela's government, there will be a two year plan for the development and introduction of democracy of Venezuela.

There are three fields that Colombia will focus in order to not only observe the Venezuelan culture, but also its democratic freedoms.

1. Culture: New schools will be built all over the country; Any teachers/instructors/professors that are hired will be of Venezeualan decent, and also chosen by the populous of the area. There will be no stiffling of performing arts, people are free to publish anything as long as it does not involve the killing of Venezeulans, Colombians, Americans, Brazillians, Germans, Argentinians, Ecuadorians, Bolivians, and Russians. Pornography and other inappropriate things will not be allowed.

Security will come in the way of primarily Colombian military units, which will also train an entirely Venezeualan police force. Over the year, this police force will take over, eventually allowing most if not all of the Colombian military to leave.

Newspapers are free to publish what they wish, as long as it follows the same guidelines as for the individuals listed above.

Colombia will not assert any of its values or beliefs on the people of Venezeula.

2. Economy; As the Venezeualan vote could turn the country to either capitalism or communism; Colombia will take the middle ground.
A Forty Hour work week will be established, along with minimum wage laws. No child under male under the age of 12 may work, and no female under the age of 15 may work. (Just relating to the time period)

Most businesses if not all of them will be privitized, but monitered by Government Agencies (financed by Colombia for the time being) to ensure that the hiring practices and minimum wage was being observed.

Tariffs will be dropped with all South American countries, and the United States, Germany, Russia, France, Great Britain, South Africa, Italy, Australia, The Ottoman Empire, and Hungary.

The Infrastructure will be repaired and upgraded by Colombia. The railroad guage will match that of Colombia and meet with railway lines of both Colombia and Brazil. Wireless telegraph networks will be built as well. Financing for these projects will be provided by Colombia (50%) while the other 50% is hoped to either be provided by other countries, or by banks.

3. Political; Venezuela will be entered into a Non-Aggression Pact with the rest of the America's. A NAP will be sought with Germany, Russia, France, Italy, Great Britain, and etc.

After 3 months of occupation, people in each province will elect a representative which will then meet at a Senate. Any problems will be then expressed to the heads of the stand-in government, who will be Colombian. Should for any reason, the people of the province become unhappy with their representative (A majority is required) they can impeach them, and elect another.

Once the Venezeuala government comes to power (Through free elections) they are free to do as they wish.

There are several government allowed parties which will be running. A council will also hear claims for other parties.
The parties are:

Liberal Party
Conservative Party
Centrist Party
Communist Party
Socialist Party
Christian Fellowship Party
South America First Party
Colombian Integration Party
Brazillian Annexation Party
German Reunification Party


Any government elected fairly (observed by any neutral nation) will be recognized by Colombia, and hopefully the rest of South America.

All US military forces withdraw from Venezuela by the end of April 1922, or sooner if relieved by Colombian Army units. German residents who have been living in Colombia less than 3 years are expelled unless they have jobs, a wife and children (a pregnant wife counts as a child in this case). They can choose any destination they wish other than Venezuela and transportation and a dislocation allowance of $10,000 in US currency is provided. (which is a lot of money back then)

ooc
by the way, the Colombian Army is going to be busy for a while, as it will take most of it to occupy Venezuela, even with the Ecuadorian battalions provided.

(ooc: A question, since Venezeula is a NPC, how will the resaults of the election be determined?)

We refuse to recognise any government in a country subdued by foreign powers. This election is still under the jurisdiction of powers hostile to left wing policies. What would happen if a government came to power in Venezuela that is more hostile than the previous one? My guess is another invasion until the electorate do as they are told.

(ooc: A question, since Venezeula is a NPC, how will the resaults of the election be determined?)

OOC: What he said.

OOC: oohhh, send them Germans to me.

OOC: What he said.
He'll probably just decide them himself.
If the elections are truly going to be fair In-Character, since Venezuela is NPC the elections will be handled by the Mods, meaning me, Galveston Bay, and Sharina (who will issue the Final Ruling).
But I doubt he'll do that. He certainly doesn't have to.

ooc: You're right, I certainly don't have to, but I'm going to. Thanks for the vote of confidence. The results of the elections will be determined by the three moderators.

ic:

Brazil, all political interests and views are represented. We don't actually care if you recognize the government. There are far more important nations in the world than the collective of chicken farmers known as Brazil.

He'll probably just decide them himself.
If the elections are truly going to be fair In-Character, since Venezuela is NPC the elections will be handled by the Mods, meaning me, Galveston Bay, and Sharina (who will issue the Final Ruling).
But I doubt he'll do that. He certainly doesn't have to.

ooc
That is my plan for it. However, he can also say IC wise that he won, depending if we actually get neutral observers (thats a Sharina decision) .. no neutral observers, then he can pretty much say he won. Elections like that have a long history. Neutral observers, then the referees should decide.

OOC: Australia, about 40% of the million Germans were communists so they go back. The other 60% can go to Australia and assume like 15% equally stay due to families.

IC: Germany refuses to recognize the puppet of the Colombian, and welcomes the old party members to Hamburg where a true government-in-exile will be established, welcoming any Venezuelans who wish to flee the dictatoral rule of the imperialists.

BTW, Venezuela was a democracy and most development of telegraphs and railroads have already been done by Germany. Also, Germany is curious to know what will happen to German businesses in Venezuela and if German, which has been taught there for almost 2 decades will continue as a second language.

ooc: Thanks for the vote of confidence.
You've certainly earned it.

Well, since the German government does not recognize the new Venezuelan government, I can't imagine that German businesses will be staying there for much longer.

The Worker's Railroad has just announced that all Colombian goods will be banned from the railroad.

OOC: I think I should have some over the Venezuelan vote. For the past 20 years, it has been nothing but good for the Venezuelans and primarily due to the Germans. I'm sure there are plenty who view the Americans as nothing but imperialists and wish to return to German influence and the REAL democracy they had.

ooc: Germany are you rediculous? This IS a real democracy...

ic: Colombia has just announced that it is considering booting any German business owners out of Venezeula, siezing their properties, and giving it to the Venezeualan people.

And last Colombia checked, it didn't do a tremendous amount of business with Germany.

Parthini']The Worker's Railroad has just announced that all Colombian goods will be banned from the railroad.

OOC: I think I should have some over the Venezuelan vote. For the past 20 years, it has been nothing but good for the Venezuelans and primarily due to the Germans. I'm sure there are plenty who view the Americans as nothing but imperialists and wish to return to German influence and the REAL democracy they had.

ooc
I disagree... Kordo didn't get any say when you annexed Austria from him in German politics, nor did he get any in Yugoslavian politics. Giving you a say in Venezuelan politics would seem unfair in light of that.

ooc
I disagree... Kordo didn't get any say when you annexed Austria from him in German politics, nor did he get any in Yugoslavian politics. Giving you a say in Venezuelan politics would seem unfair in light of that.
And you call me mean.
I guess you had a good teacher.

ooc: Seriously guys, if you don't recognize the new Venezeulan government, I'd just have to annex it.

ooc
likely Venezuelan attitudes...

I did some thinking last night and here is what I think. Originally Germany attacked and basically conquered Venezuela back in 1905 while it was having a civil war. It then killed a number of people who resisted (based on his posts) and ran the country firmly but autocratically for 3 years until basically forced out by the US during the Great War. At least its military was forced out, but it retained sizeable influence and essentially ran the Venezuelan economy until the US occupation in 1923.

Now my view is this. In a situation like this, a sizeable segment of the Venezuelan population lost directly or suffered as a result of the German occupation. Probably the upper classes but some of the lower classes as well. They wouldn't like the Germans much and probably would still have antipathy nearly a generation later.

Now a similar situation is the historical US occupation of the Philippines and even that was accepted only because the US promised the Philippines independence and gave firm date. That and effective military action were the reasons why the US won the Philippine Insurrection in 3 years. The Germans only pulled out their garrison when forced to, and retained economic control, essentially keeping Venezuela as a de facto colony, although not a de jure colony.

Bottom line, a sizeable segment of the Venezuelan population has no reason to love the Germans. But a sizeable segment does, those who benefited from German direct and then indirect rule. Now that segment has suffered from the American conquest and Colombian occupation.

However, if Colombia can woo over both of those two groups, plus the much large segment of the population who basically don't care who is in charge as long as there is peace, than the Colombian occupation will be successful and the either annexation into Colombia or establishment of a neutral or pro Colombian state is very likely.

Doesn't that situation sound more likely to degenerate into a Civil War? Or at least rival terrorist campaigns? Guelph and Ghibelline and all that nonsense . . .

it kind of depends... quick stability was brought about, because the US invasion was pretty massive--- 300,000 troops, which prevented the chaos we saw in Iraq (for example). Handover to Colombia was then carried out in a stable situation. So effective law and order and policing remained pretty much throughout. There isn't a language barrier for the Colombians, and they would have some ties with Venezuela through trade in any case, and common history (Spanish rule, San Martin and Bolivar are both heros in both countries). I doubt there is an extremely strong socialist tradition here, it was imported by the Germans, and this is Catholic conservative South America after all. But yes, some extremely alienated elements might just pick up the gun and bomb.

But almost certainly not as many will do so since the damned Yanquis pulled out so quickly. After all, it was the Americans who came in and broke things (and killed people), not the Colombians, and they are the ones who drove out the Germans, not the Colombians. So the Americans probably aren't popular but they left after all. At least the occupiers are neighbors, which should help.

Indeed they do have a common history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Gran_Colombia), which might actually make it worse.
However, I was thinking less about strife against the occupiers as such, and more about strife against one another. Granted, the Germans weren't there long, though.

OOC: Man, After doing a bit of beating on the rebels, who would have been there anyways, although the common dude doesn't know that, all I did was build railroads, help businesses, build schools and hospitals. Plus, you forget that a large amount of Venezuelans are half-German, with their fathers being German soldiers of entrepeneurs.

Plus, EVERYONE, except Brazil has been verbally and econmically abusing Venezuela, except Germany. Thus, after 15 years of nothing but help, I think the middle class, who got jobs from German investors who provided a lot for Venezuela, until the Colombians kicked them out, destorying jobs!. The Lower class probably likes the Marxist influence who supports their people when stuff happens. So pretty much only the upper class would be pissed at Germany. A good deal of them might be German too...

And the Colombians are widely known as the lackeys of America who went and beat up the Venezuelans.

I think we should just call it a draw and have a Civil War: Middle Class Germanics vs Upper Class Colombian Lackeys, with the poor caught in the middle.

ooc: Would you stop calling me a lackey out of character, it really seems like you are attacking the player and not the nation.

until the Colombians kicked them out, destorying jobs!.

I haven't actually done it yet, but nice try. And Colombia would be creating more jobs. If you didn't notice, I said I would be handing the german businesses over to the Venezeulans; Plus I am building more hospitals, and employing more Venezeulans to improve the infrastructure of Venezeula itself. Colombia creates jobs.

And the Colombians are widely known as the lackeys of America who went and beat up the Venezuelans.

ONCE AGAIN, we did not attack Venezeula. We stepped in, relieving the United States. If anything we should be seen in a more positive light for removing American invaders and replacing them with South American neighbors who are willing to help, and only staying for THREE MONTHS.


I think we should just call it a draw and have a Civil War: Middle Class Germanics vs Upper Class Colombian Lackeys, with the poor caught in the middle.
I would just gas the populous that chooses to side against us violently ;). Much like those evil Soviets.

All US military forces withdraw from Venezuela by the end of April 1922, or sooner if relieved by Colombian Army units. German residents who have been living in Colombia less than 3 years are expelled unless they have jobs, a wife and children (a pregnant wife counts as a child in this case). They can choose any destination they wish other than Venezuela and transportation and a dislocation allowance of $10,000 in US currency is provided. (which is a lot of money back then)

ooc
by the way, the Colombian Army is going to be busy for a while, as it will take most of it to occupy Venezuela, even with the Ecuadorian battalions provided.

Just a reminder to the German player about what US policy was

The Colombian military will begin pulling out soon, as violence is virtually unknown right now in Venezeula. Rather than inconviencence people, the Colombians did not stay with billets but rather camps set up by its own money.

It is hoped that an election could take place as early as January 1923.

Election results..... observers were treated to a fair election, and corruption and threats of violence were minimal

Liberal Party -- wins 55% of seats in Legislature and gets Presidency... wants a neutral Venezuela with economic and trade ties to Europe, North America and Latin America. Decent social safety net, limited spending on military, land reform, use oil money for the good of the people particularly education, follow Colombian model to prosperity
Conservative Party -- wins 15% of seats, slower rate of change
Centrist Party -- wins 16% of seats
Communist Party -- wins no seats
Socialist Party -- wins 4% of seats, platform was coopted by Liberals
Christian Fellowship Party -- ends up merging with Conservative Party
South America First Party -- wins no seats
Colombian Integration Party -- wins 10% of seats
Brazillian Annexation Party --- wins no seats, fades away after Brazilian civil war begins
German Reunification Party -- was on a path to win seats until German invasion of Denmark, fades away

basically the Venezuelans just want peace and to be left alone

France offers to open trade relations with the new Venezuelan government.

OOC: No Communists and the "join Germany" party died off. No threats of violence my rump!

May I enquire why the Venezuelans ditched me when I liberated Denmark?

Parthini']OOC: No Communists and the "join Germany" party died off. No threats of violence my rump!

May I enquire why the Venezuelans ditched me when I liberated Denmark?

ooc
there was some actual violence, the kind that happens late at night with unannounced visits. Mainly though, the Liberals did here what the Progressives did in the US... they co opted as much of the Far Lefts platform as possible in order to win. There was some "if we vote too extreme the Yanquis will come back" as well.

OOC: Meh. I guess I have no choice but to...

IC: The Worker's Republic officially recognizes the new Venezuelan government. While there some disgust at the obvious Colombian influence over the electors, the Worker's are willing to work with our old bretheren, as many Venezuelans still see the Germans as friends, not foes. However, the Worker's Republic wishes to see several things happen before we can be fully satisfied.

First off, we believe that every single Colombian soldier should leave immediately. They are no longer wanted nor needed.

Secondly, no country should retain troops or military ships in any part of Venezuela, unless agreed upon by the Venezuelan government.

Thirdly, no country, other than Venezuela itself should decide ANY issues for Venezuela. Venezuela will become soverign as it was before the Americans came.

Fourthly, Venezuela shall sign the Pan-American Treaty, as well as sign an economic and defense pact with the Union. Thus, both sides will be obliged to protect Venezuela politically, economically, and militarily.

Fifly, no Brazilian Rebels will be allowed asylum in Venezuela, and Venezuela will retain friendly relations with the Brazilian Government, thus acting in non-intereference.

Lastly, all German businesses forced out by the Colombians will return as they and the Venezuelans see fit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Reichmann will head to Caracas to prepare for a treaty. It is hoped that the French, British, American, Brazilian, and Colombian Governments will send representatives to Caracas. It is to be called the Treaty of Caracas.

Parthini']OOC: Meh. I guess I have no choice but to...

IC: The Worker's Republic officially recognizes the new Venezuelan government. While there some disgust at the obvious Colombian influence over the electors, the Worker's are willing to work with our old bretheren, as many Venezuelans still see the Germans as friends, not foes. However, the Worker's Republic wishes to see several things happen before we can be fully satisfied.

First off, we believe that every single Colombian soldier should leave immediately. They are no longer wanted nor needed.

Secondly, no country should retain troops or military ships in any part of Venezuela, unless agreed upon by the Venezuelan government.

Thirdly, no country, other than Venezuela itself should decide ANY issues for Venezuela. Venezuela will become soverign as it was before the Americans came.

Fourthly, Venezuela shall sign the Pan-American Treaty, as well as sign an economic and defense pact with the Union. Thus, both sides will be obliged to protect Venezuela politically, economically, and militarily.

Fifly, no Brazilian Rebels will be allowed asylum in Venezuela, and Venezuela will retain friendly relations with the Brazilian Government, thus acting in non-intereference.

Lastly, all German businesses forced out by the Colombians will return as they and the Venezuelans see fit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Reichmann will head to Caracas to prepare for a treaty. It is hoped that the French, British, American, Brazilian, and Colombian Governments will send representatives to Caracas. It is to be called the Treaty of Caracas.


We'll go along with that.

OoC: The Pan-American Treaty might be defunct. If so, let it be replaced by the London Treaty.

IC:
The General Council categorically supports all of Berlin's reasonable positions.
- Karl Radek, President of the General Consultative Council

ooc
The Pan American Treaty is still in effect, at least those clauses calling for the defense of member states from outside interference, the clause calling for the US not to intervene in the internal affairs of the treaty nations, the economic clauses, and the de facto and de jure acceptance of the Monroe Doctrine. Some of those nations are also in the LTA, but not all.

IC
The United States is willing to accept Venezuelan neutrality and will sign a seperate treaty with Germany as a signer indicating that the US and Germany will not interfere in the internal affairs of Venezuela.

This would automatically give Venezuela backs its soveriegnity, and would reflect the will of the Venezuelan voters.

OOC: But you would agree to all those points, right? If so, consider it signed.

Um... that was a waste of your time... all of that happened BEFORE the elections. I pulled my troops out a full year before the elections... and I mentioned that several times.

And I threatened to force German businesses out, but I never did it. Stop trying to villinize me, because it obviously won't work in Venezuela.

First off, we believe that every single Colombian soldier should leave immediately. They are no longer wanted nor needed.
That happened a long time ago.

Secondly, no country should retain troops or military ships in any part of Venezuela, unless agreed upon by the Venezuelan government.
I've already defended that a long time ago. Go find the thread where Ecuador wanted to put 5,000 troops in Venezeula permentantly and I told him to fack off.

Thirdly, no country, other than Venezuela itself should decide ANY issues for Venezuela. Venezuela will become soverign as it was before the Americans came.
Thats a given.

Fourthly, Venezuela shall sign the Pan-American Treaty, as well as sign an economic and defense pact with the Union. Thus, both sides will be obliged to protect Venezuela politically, economically, and militarily.
Well, here you are violating your third point. Venezeula can do what it wants, and if it wants to sign, it will.

Fifly, no Brazilian Rebels will be allowed asylum in Venezuela, and Venezuela will retain friendly relations with the Brazilian Government, thus acting in non-intereference.
Once again, you violate your third point. Venezeula is free to do as it wishes. They can even join in on the hunt for the Brazillian Rebels, we don't care.

The Americans violated a ton of stuff of their own when they blockaded Brazil and demanded that they don't ally with Russia. I think demanding non-partisanship in Venezuela isn't too much.

I'm putting forth a suggestion and your input is appreciated.

The United States is backing Colombia here. The US refuses to accept the German view that it violated anything, as the proposed embargo on Brazil was nullified by Presidential veto before it became law. As Brazil has withdrawn from the Pan American treaty, the US is free to act as it sees fit as far as Brazil is concerned.

No US forces remain in Venezuela, and all Colombian forces have also withdrawn. Venezuelan independence is restored, and if Venezuela chooses to sign the Pan American Treaty its independence is guaranteed by the coalition of powers that signed that treaty. Which includes the US and Colombia.

However, the US is willing to sign a treaty with Germany that would ensure that the US and Germany guaranteed Venezuelan neutrality.

As far as Germans that were expelled, only a relative few were indeed expelled and the policy was carried out by the US in the first 30 days of its occupation and those who were expelled where given substantial compensation.

It is within Venezuela's right to let them back in or not. However, once again, the US will spell out its policy regarding Latin America. Any Latin American nation that enters into a military alliance with a nation outside of the Western Hemisphere that is either directed at the United States, or excludes the United States, will be viewed as a threat to the United States and action will be taken.

OOC: Ok, I guess that's fine. Same thing now that I think about it. No use starting a war over petty laws *cough*.

IC: The Worker's Republic, seeing how petty squabbling gets nothing done, agrees to the United States's terms, and agrees to sign the Treaty of Caracas, ensuring Venezuelan neutrality.

the US signs as well