NationStates Jolt Archive

All clones are based on human dna, so why arent they having the same amount of rights as normal humans! I say we ban all clone troopers! Give them pens instead of blasters! Cloning for war is unethical and cruel! They should have rights! Not to be sold like slaves, and the rights of slaves!

PS can P.O.W. be sold like slaves? because I was recently invaided and my invaider captured 400 million people.

Otagia agrees. Clones should be treated the same as humans. This is why we have instituted a policy of debt slavery in Otagia. The debt for being created is worth approximately 18 years of labor.

As to selling prisoners of war, Otagia finds this to be a lucrative business.

Clones, unlike true humans are actually created much like a car, or a computer. True humans are not 'assembled', and require two participants. A clone requires one scientist and a sperm nad egg bank. Clones are objects, and the property of the authority which created them.

The Corporation Disagrees, as the Corporation uses extensivly Clones created for the sole purpose of war, therefore are not regarded as having the same rights as "natural Humans" The Corporation also uses Human Drones, in effect Humans reconditioned to be Mindless automons that follow commands without question.

The High Command

Tag.

Clone slavery is very unethical. They are humans, no matter how much they look alike and whether or not they were created to do something specific does not matter. They are HUMAN BEINGS and have a choice.

The SOLE exception to this rule are clones whose brains have been literally programmed for their specific tasks. These are mere shadows of humans who are incapable of making a decision that would cause them to go outside of their programming and while they are physically human, they are still lesser, but this is still not right and should not be performed under normal circumstances.

The only exception to that are clone slaves that are programmed to be happy to do what they are doing, because as long as everybody is happy, we're happy.

Clone slavery is perfectly ethical when viewed as a form of debt slavery. For thousands of years, humanity has used convicts and debtors for forced labor, even continuing into the twenty-first century. When applied to clones, this makes perfect sense. After all, what gift is worth more than life itself?

Freedom?

Freedom?

But without life there is no chance of freedom.

Freedom?
Freedom is obtained after the debt has been lifted. Quantifying this debt is difficult, but is set at 18 years, the standard amount of time a child is subservient to its parents. Of course, equipment costs must be factored into the debt, which may raise it beyond this simple number.

But what did these people do to be created to have to gain freedom instead of being born with it? Clones with no minds don't have a choice. As long as the donor was willing to donate his DNA, there is nothing wrong there. If a clone is bred for combat and they are PROGRAMMED, not brainwashed, to love their job, there's nothing wrong there. But if a person is cloned with a mind of their own and no choice in life, there are problems there.

But what did these people do to be created to have to gain freedom instead of being born with it? Clones with no minds don't have a choice. As long as the donor was willing to donate his DNA, there is nothing wrong there. If a clone is bred for combat and they are PROGRAMMED, not brainwashed, to love their job, there's nothing wrong there. But if a person is cloned with a mind of their own and no choice in life, there are problems there.
Does a child have a choice with its life? No. Its parents have the right to decide nearly every facet of its existance. Therefore, we feel that we are perfectly within our bounds to enforce this debt.

Clones in the United States of the South Pacific were given citizeship and equal rights a long time ago when the Equal Rights Amendment to the USSP constitution was passed.

It is good to see other nations following in our steps. We pledge 20 billion dollars in aid to nations that take steps to ensure that their clone populations are given equal treatment with their nation's other citizens.

Otagia agrees. Clones should be treated the same as humans. This is why we have instituted a policy of debt slavery in Otagia. The debt for being created is worth approximately 18 years of labor.

As to selling prisoners of war, Otagia finds this to be a lucrative business.
The USSP condemns the trafficking in POW's.

Clones, unlike true humans are actually created much like a car, or a computer. True humans are not 'assembled', and require two participants. A clone requires one scientist and a sperm nad egg bank. Clones are objects, and the property of the authority which created them.
The government of the South Pacific disagrees, clones are human beings with the same inalienable rights as all other human beings.

But even this child becomes a man. A parent's responsibility is to raise the child and help shape their future. When a child becomes a teenager, they hoose if they wish to head on with tehir eductation (And what fields they want), to join the military, go directly to work, drop out, or wait until later. Parents do not dictate everything their children do as their lives progress. Your analogy does not apply.

Clone slavery is very unethical. They are humans, no matter how much they look alike and whether or not they were created to do something specific does not matter. They are HUMAN BEINGS and have a choice.

The SOLE exception to this rule are clones whose brains have been literally programmed for their specific tasks. These are mere shadows of humans who are incapable of making a decision that would cause them to go outside of their programming and while they are physically human, they are still lesser, but this is still not right and should not be performed under normal circumstances.

The only exception to that are clone slaves that are programmed to be happy to do what they are doing, because as long as everybody is happy, we're happy.
Such a thing is a violation for their right to freedom of choice.

Clone slavery is perfectly ethical when viewed as a form of debt slavery. For thousands of years, humanity has used convicts and debtors for forced labor, even continuing into the twenty-first century. When applied to clones, this makes perfect sense. After all, what gift is worth more than life itself?
Forced labor is done for a crime that has been committed and does not last longer than 10 years for the most serious crimes. In the South Pacific no person can be forced to do forced labor or be a slave for longer than 7 years.

The USSP condemns the trafficking in POW's.
The Hive-State of Otagia doesn't particularily care.

Which one?

Creating a mindless human robot, if you will, is no more than creating a mindless metal robot. To say otherwise would contradict everything the uses of cloning stands for. To create a human that is programmed to love their job makes them happy, so as long as they're so happy they don't care about other choices, it doesn't matter to us.

Does a child have a choice with its life? No. Its parents have the right to decide nearly every facet of its existance. Therefore, we feel that we are perfectly within our bounds to enforce this debt.
Yet, parents give their children freedoms starting at the age of 13. You go way beyond that to the age of 18. Clone children should be in school with all the other children.

Yet, parents give their children freedoms starting at the age of 13. You go way beyond that to the age of 18. Clone children should be in school with all the other children.
Clone children that can make their own choices.

Forced labor is done for a crime that has been committed and does not last longer than 10 years for the most serious crimes. In the South Pacific no person can be forced to do forced labor or be a slave for longer than 7 years.

Frankly, this doesn't really apply to Otagia. Laws differ between Otagia and The South Pacific.

But even this child becomes a man. A parent's responsibility is to raise the child and help shape their future. When a child becomes a teenager, they hoose if they wish to head on with tehir eductation (And what fields they want), to join the military, go directly to work, drop out, or wait until later. Parents do not dictate everything their children do as their lives progress. Your analogy does not apply.

The State (or any other owner) shapes the lives of its slaves, just like a parent. Slaves gain valuable skills which they can use later in life when they are freed. As for the second part of your argument, the slave is free to do whatever it choses upon gaining its freedom. Consider it a delayed coming-of-age.

Which one?

Creating a mindless human robot, if you will, is no more than creating a mindless metal robot. To say otherwise would contradict everything the uses of cloning stands for. To create a human that is programmed to love their job makes them happy, so as long as they're so happy they don't care about other choices, it doesn't matter to us.
To create clones in such a manner violates the ethics of the people of the South Pacific and as such is illegal in our nation.

Frankly, this doesn't really apply to Otagia. Laws differ between Otagia and The South Pacific.



The State (or any other owner) shapes the lives of its slaves, just like a parent. Slaves gain valuable skills which they can use later in life when they are freed. As for the second part of your argument, the slave is free to do whatever it choses upon gaining its freedom. Consider it a delayed coming-of-age.
As long as the coming-of-age is the saem as it is with normal citizen, which in your case it's not, there is no problem there.

Yet, parents give their children freedoms starting at the age of 13. You go way beyond that to the age of 18. Clone children should be in school with all the other children.
The legal age of independence in Otagia is 18. Thirteen year-olds are still legally bound to their parents. As for going to school with other children, mnemonic tutors and direct-to-brain downloads provide excellent education for our clones. Being placed in a grade school with children is both redundant and infantile, especially when vat-to-labor clones are brought into the equation.

Clone were made to do dangerous tasks 'natural humans' can't do without risk of dying. If a clone dies, oh well, clone another. That is why they are used in wars. They are also cost effective, spending small amounts money to make thousands of clones that are more flexible than robots, more intelligent, more creative, and more improvisional. I would not consider it slave labor because they were 'programmed' to do what they do, and to enjoy it. We find the perfect person for the job, take a sample of DNA, and clone them, allowing us to finish the job faster. Without clones dangerous jobs would take longer to finish, and wars would be costlier. Also clones could be immedialty terminated should a rebellion arise somehow, and they are 'grown' faster than 'natural humans' and therefore can finish large construction projects faster.

Now if we are talking about P.O.W. trade, then Bonus01 finds that just horrible, as bad as slave trading.

It seems to me that to agree that a clone is a "person" with a will and the right to be and choose means that the clone is subject to the rights and responsibilities of other non-lab-assisted humans. This being established, even if one's nation feels it is ethical to enforce labour as a consequence of crime, or of debt, would said nation demand 18 years of "slave" labour from a two year old child who in his/her ignorance commited a crime? If you feel forced labour for a child who unknowingly breaks the law is just then I will not argue your clone ethics. If separating child from parent for punishment in their formative years is deemed wrong, then how can the formative years from conception to 18 yrs of a clone's life be reduced to a labour debt payment. He or she must be allowed to develop and be nurtured, taught and loved by the community before choosing to repay the "debt".

The clone would not be seperated from its parents. As with any orphan, the State acts in loco parentis.

As to the comment about a small child commiting a crime: this example has no bearing on the use of slaves. Forced criminal labour and debt slavery are two entirely different things. It can be argued that merely being born is grounds for debt slavery, as you are born into a situation where you are subservient to those that gave you the gift of life. This is the basis for the subservience of clones in Otagian culture, not some criminal act.

In the Serene Death there was a great thinker who wrote of the state and its people. He wrote of all types of governments and what made them as well as all levels of people, from rulers to slaves. On slavery he classified 2 distinct versions of slaves, the "Natural" slave (created by nature to be a slave) and the "Legal" slave (created by laws to be a slave).

What many nations here are mentioning as slavery seems to be a form of the law-created slavery. There are rules set down that state that these clones must be slaves. The Serene Death does not condone or allow such slavery in its territory and confiscates and frees any of these types of slaves that enter their territories.

The nature-created slavery is a little more fuzzy in the laws, but the definition is thus: The being must not be able to reason beyond the basics of all living beings. For if a being cannot reason then how can it be sentient and have rights? It cannot. If a being cannot think past its base instincts then there is no argument that slavery is acceptable in this case, as the animals of the past were used as slaves to till the fields of farmers.

Thus we recognize all clones made for war as living, thinking beings and not slaves, for if they can go to war and not just use simple tactics then they must be able to reason and if they use any weapon above a club then they must have the know how to be able to use such devices.

The clone would not be seperated from its parents. As with any orphan, the State acts in loco parentis.

As to the comment about a small child commiting a crime: this example has no bearing on the use of slaves. Forced criminal labour and debt slavery are two entirely different things. It can be argued that merely being born is grounds for debt slavery, as you are born into a situation where you are subservient to those that gave you the gift of life. This is the basis for the subservience of clones in Otagian culture, not some criminal act.
We find your nation's treatment of clones to be barbaric and inhumane. As such we cannot support it. Therefore, trade sanctions have been placed on your nation. The South Pacific will not allow trade or South Pacific dollars to be used to support inhumane treatment of clones.
The commercial property of Otagian entities in the USSP are to be seized at once and sold. The proceeds will go to the international clone defense fund.

Any clone slaves that enter USSP lands or territory will be freed upon entry and granted political asylum status.

Are clones human? No. They are human products. They are not humans, they are exact copies of humans. Being exact copies of humans, and not humans themselves, gives them the same natural instincts and human will as a human would have. If they hold the same mental ideals as humans, though they are not humans, we can not impose any rule upon them we would find unacceptable to place upon ourselves.

All clones are based on human dna, so why arent they having the same amount of rights as normal humans! I say we ban all clone troopers! Give them pens instead of blasters! Cloning for war is unethical and cruel! They should have rights! Not to be sold like slaves, and the rights of slaves!
And yet you bought clones from the Star Forge... How interesting.

All clones are good for is making cannon fodder. However they tend to be able to be used as cannon fodder a lot sooner than your natural human. Hence why we in the Shadow Realm use them. Though only a very few are actualy granted "freedom" (though it's usualy a bullet) the odd one or two that outlived their combat duty will go on for other more useful purposes.

We find your nation's treatment of clones to be barbaric and inhumane. As such we cannot support it. Therefore, trade sanctions have been placed on your nation. The South Pacific will not allow trade or South Pacific dollars to be used to support inhumane treatment of clones.
The commercial property of Otagian entities in the USSP are to be seized at once and sold. The proceeds will go to the international clone defense fund.
We are saddened that you feel this way. All our clone-slavery guidelines are derived from 21st century law, and are, in our opinion, morally correct.

As for the seizure of Otagian property, please be aware that all Otagian merchants have been advised to shoot USSP personnel on sight. Until the time that all Otagian personnel and property has been removed from TSP space, this order will stand.

We are saddened that you feel this way. All our clone-slavery guidelines are derived from 21st century law, and are, in our opinion, morally correct.

As for the seizure of Otagian property, please be aware that all Otagian merchants have been advised to shoot USSP personnel on sight. Until the time that all Otagian personnel and property has been removed from TSP space, this order will stand.
We condem your nations resort to acts of terrorism and piracy. Such an attack upon USSP officials or agents will be taken as an act of war.

Here Is the basic definition of a human from one or another internet dictionaries

"A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens."

In other words if it stands on two legs and Dosen't say "Ook" it's a human.
It does not matter if it was constructed by Definition it is a human, and cannot be sold.

And To Chuckacon: we only captured 2.3 million people our country isn't large enough to hold all those people.

Clone Troopers are bred for combat, they are not enslaved, because they do not fight against their will, meaning that they are not, by my definition, in forced servitude.

Clone Troopers are bred for combat, they are not enslaved, because they do not fight against their will, meaning that they are not, by my definition, in forced servitude.

Perhaps This is the case but they are still bought and sold at anothers disgression, which is the essence of slavery, and have you ever wondered why clones fight by their own will because thier will is that of their creators.

Perhaps This is the case but they are still bought and sold at anothers disgression, which is the essence of slavery, and have you ever wondered why clones fight by their own will because thier will is that of their creators.

Immaterial, they still fight of their own will, they fight because it is how they are designed, and I see no issues with this situation, even though there is not a single clone trooper in the Terran army(OOC: They suck compared to my guys...) we respect the rights of others to use clones for this purpose.

Perhaps This is the case but they are still bought and sold at anothers disgression, which is the essence of slavery, and have you ever wondered why clones fight by their own will because thier will is that of their creators.
The will of the creator and the will of some clones are interchangable. With direct-to-brain downloading, you can wetwire any thought patterns you want into a clone.

And yet you bought clones from the Star Forge... How interesting.
But that was before i thought of this sin! I did release them into my capital, and now they have jobs as Janitors, judges, guards, trash men, and farmers.

And to Border Guards: just send a small amount back. Remember, I want almost all my land back, or pope Jugger shall be mad, VERY mad.

The will of the creator and the will of some clones are interchangable. With direct-to-brain downloading, you can wetwire any thought patterns you want into a clone.

As soon as you try to give them their own will, and send them to face a army 1/10 odds over the clones then we will see How "Assembled" they are.

As soon as you try to give them their own will, and send them to face a army 1/10 odds over the clones then we will see How "Assembled" they are.
Pretty well. Wetwiring their thought patterns is rather effective. As many soldiers can tell you, fanatics don't give up very easily.

Pretty well. Wetwiring their thought patterns is rather effective. As many soldiers can tell you, fanatics don't give up very easily.

Yes It does, but that brings us back to the thought that they Probably don't have a choice in the matter of how their minds "programmed".

OOC: Sorry, but I am siding with keeping clones as slaves. Or slave-like.

Pretty well. Wetwiring their thought patterns is rather effective. As many soldiers can tell you, fanatics don't give up very easily.
I can vouch for that, Space Marines are a good example...

Yes It does, but that brings us back to the thought that they Probably don't have a choice in the matter of how their minds "programmed".
Does any child have a choice in how their mind is "programmed?" It is a relatively simple matter to raise a child as a firm believer in some institution or another, all we do is accelerate the process in an artificially created body.

Clones are human,s but are also objects. I stand with both sides. Depends on the slavery, in other words. If they are butlers, enjoy it, or the death rate is not terrible (like 5 people a day, not 5,00o), then I beleive it is ok. If many die, they don't like it, etc. etd., then I do not like it. Get it? If not, that'd be your homework. ;)

Does any child have a choice in how their mind is "programmed?" It is a relatively simple matter to raise a child as a firm believer in some institution or another, all we do is accelerate the process in an artificially created body.

Firstly I should hope that your are not programing children.
Institution yes, but an absolute devotion to killing and to obey orders no, maybe a few but not an armys worth.

The combined military forces in the region of Iron Fist Military states have agreed that cloning is unethical, and fights purely with orinal born humans (clones are outlawed in M3rcenaries)

Clones are human,s but are also objects. I stand with both sides. Depends on the slavery, in other words. If they are butlers, enjoy it, or the death rate is not terrible (like 5 people a day, not 5,00o), then I beleive it is ok. If many die, they don't like it, etc. etd., then I do not like it. Get it? If not, that'd be your homework. ;)

OCC- join me it's hard enough to keep up as it is.

IC Provided they are payed and have the rights listed in the UN that's A Most Admirable View.

I can vouch for that, Space Marines are a good example...

Space marines are humans in battle armour.

OCC- join me it's hard enough to keep up as it is.

IC Provided they are payed and have the rights listed in the UN that's A Most Admirable View.

Since I'm not in the UN, they can take it and stuff it. Remember, most of the nations with Clone Troopers are NOT UN nations, meaning that UN sanctions and such DO NOT apply.

Firstly I should hope that your are not programing children.
Institution yes, but an absolute devotion to killing and to obey orders no, maybe a few but not an armys worth.
Direct-to-brain download is too useful of a technology to ignore. Not tutoring our children via this method would be criminally wasteful. This technology allows children to learn as they sleep, freeing days for recreation, physical activity, and family time.

Regardless, NO being, clone, slave, soldier, or child, is given an "absolute devotion to killing." Such a thing is barbaric, sadistic, and evil. The described practice borders on rewiring the mind into a sociopathic killer, which would be extremely inefficient, both on the battlefield and off. Any military wetwiring would be a simple tactics upload, a compulsion to follow orders from superior officers, and appropriate knowledge on weapon systems.

Space marines are humans in battle armour.

Space Marines are fanatical, genetically modified humans in Battle Armor, not just regular humans in powered combat armor like my ACS.

Since I'm not in the UN, they can take it and stuff it. Remember, most of the nations with Clone Troopers are NOT UN nations, meaning that UN sanctions and such DO NOT apply.

If I had been refering to you I would have mentioned this as I was not you can "stuff" your opinion about the UN.

Space marines are humans in battle armour.
Space Marines are elite fanatics with a wide assortment of genetic enhancements, bio-implants, and cybernetics. They are chosen from the most devout and skillful warriors in the Imperium. They are no mere humans. They are Homo Astartes, and they know no fear.

If I had been refering to you I would have mentioned this as I was not you can "stuff" your opinion about the UN.

Point is that the UN has no hold over most Clone Trooper using nations, so their rules do not matter, binary solution set, get over it.

Direct-to-brain download is too useful of a technology to ignore. Not tutoring our children via this method would be criminally wasteful. This technology allows children to learn as they sleep, freeing days for recreation, physical activity, and family time.

Regardless, NO being, clone, slave, soldier, or child, is given an "absolute devotion to killing." Such a thing is barbaric, sadistic, and evil. The described practice borders on rewiring the mind into a sociopathic killer, which would be extremely inefficient, both on the battlefield and off. Any military wetwiring would be a simple tactics upload, a compulsion to follow orders from superior officers, and appropriate knowledge on weapon systems.

As I said before I am talking about the removing of emotions and a free will. As for the Children I tend to agree with you.

As I said before I am talking about the removing of emotions and a free will. As for the Children I tend to agree with you.
There is no removal of emotions or free will. Slaves still feel love, hate, lust, jealously, etc., and are free to make whatever decisions they wish.

Point is that the UN has no hold over most Clone Trooper using nations, so their rules do not matter, binary solution set, get over it.

It is possible that you have not actually read the previous posts, I am not refering to you in any way, I was merely giving my approval to a nation with A "Happy Medium" nor was speaking to any Non- UN Nation Except from which I took the Quote.

There is no removal of emotions or free will. Slaves still feel love, hate, lust, jealously, etc., and are free to make whatever decisions they wish.


Slaves Of course, but not clones

Slaves Of course, but not clones
Yes, clones. Why would they not feel emotion, or have free will? They are human, by definition they have the above.

It is possible that you have not actually read the previous posts, I am not refering to you in any way, I was merely giving my approval to a nation with A "Happy Medium" nor was speaking to any Non- UN Nation Except from which I took the Quote.

My point is that bringing the UN into this is totally pointless, when you bring the UN into it you are attempting to force non-UN nations to conform to a set of standards to which they do not wish to hold themselves. No matter what your intentions its still put across that way.

Yes, clones. Why would they not feel emotion, or have free will? They are human, by definition they have the above.

OCC- I Knew I could Do It

IC As You Have Just said they are HUMAN which makes ,selling, buying or tampering with them Most Definetly slavery by the UN Charter, Even If you are not a UN Nation selling a human is slavery.

My point is that bringing the UN into this is totally pointless, when you bring the UN into it you are attempting to force non-UN nations to conform to a set of standards to which they do not wish to hold themselves. No matter what your intentions its still put across that way.

I see what your saying but again I was Only approving another's view

OCC- I Knew I could Do It

IC As You Have Just said they are HUMAN which makes ,selling, buying or tampering with them Most Definetly slavery by the UN Charter, Even If you are not a UN Nation selling a human is slavery.

By your definition, the United States government practiced slavery well into the 21st century. Prisoners make licensce plates, maintain roads and highways, and other menial jobs. By your definition, this is slavery. Don't tell me that the US should have released all these convicted felons into society and given them jobs?

By your definition, the United States government practiced slavery well into the 21st century. Prisoners make licensce plates, maintain roads and highways, and other menial jobs. By your definition, this is slavery. Don't tell me that the US should have released all these convicted felons into society and given them jobs?

They Do actually pay convicts, Below Minimum Wage yes, or in time of the sentence. If They were not being payed it would be slavery.

By your definition, the United States government practiced slavery well into the 21st century. Prisoners make licensce plates, maintain roads and highways, and other menial jobs. By your definition, this is slavery. Don't tell me that the US should have released all these convicted felons into society and given them jobs?

But clones havent done any crimes so why must they pay??

They Do actually pay convicts, Below Minimum Wage yes, or in time of the sentence. If They were not being payed it would be slavery.
It can be argued that Otagian slaves are payed, as they receive far better food and lodging than your average prisoner. Their debt is also lowered by their service, which also is a form of payment (the archaic US law of the 21st century allows those who are owed money to take all funds and property not neccessary to a debtor's livelyhood as a form of payment).

It can be argued that Otagian slaves are payed, as they receive far better food and lodging than your average prisoner. Their debt is also lowered by their service, which also is a form of payment (the archaic US law of the 21st century allows those who are owed money to take all funds and property not neccessary to a debtor's livelyhood as a form of payment).

Sorry you probably mentioned this but how did they become slaves?
For My point I would like to say That Otagian Slaves are an entirely differnt subject than clones.

But clones havent done any crimes so why must they pay??
They are not criminals, they are debt slaves. They owe their creator their lives, and thus must pay their debt through labor. As the standard Otagian natural born human becomes independent by age eighteen, slaves may be kept for eighteen years, plus the value of any non-essential goods they consume.

Sorry you probably mentioned this but how did they become slaves?
For My point I would like to say That Otagian Slaves are an entirely differnt subject than clones.
Most Otagian clones ARE slaves. Thus, clones and slaves fall under similar legislation.


They are not criminals, they are debt slaves. They owe their creator their lives, and thus must pay their debt through labor. As the standard Otagian natural born human becomes independent by age eighteen, slaves may be kept for eighteen years, plus the value of any non-essential goods they consume.

Piglatnia views clones as shells of former humans and thus have no rights, clones are given citizenship as soilders though as an issue of respect to all those who serve there homeland diligently if they are not implied as a soilder they would be put to other uses butlership, taxi services, and news casters.

There donors are given payment for every clone we make of them unless they are dead, which is the situation at the moment for our soilder clones. if clones must be discharged from the millitary due to injury they will be patched up as best as posible then after a few months in reeducation centers they are imploid in other feilds.

They are not criminals, they are debt slaves. They owe their creator their lives, and thus must pay their debt through labor. As the standard Otagian natural born human becomes independent by age eighteen, slaves may be kept for eighteen years, plus the value of any non-essential goods they consume.

Life, as someone posted earlier that they did not ask for, slavery brought apon by an outsider through no fault of the Clone. As for food and such the price to pay for a slave.

Life, as someone posted earlier that they did not ask for, slavery brought apon by an outsider through no fault of the Clone. As for food and such the price to pay for a slave.

The same could be said about any child born. They did not ask to be born, it's not their fault that they now exist. For example, those children with debilitating and extremely painful illnesses: they were not asked to be brought into this world, and are afflicted with horrid agony throughout the rest of their lives through no fault of their own. Would you endorse aborting any late-term fetus that was observed having these disease?

Piglatnia views clones as shells of former humans and thus have no rights, clones are given citizenship as soilders though as an issue of respect to all those who serve there homeland diligently if they are not implied as a soilder they would be put to other uses butlership, taxi services, and news casters.

There donors are given payment for every clone we make of them unless they are dead, which is the situation at the moment for our soilder clones. if clones must be discharged from the millitary due to injury they will be patched up as best as posible then after a few months in reeducation centers they are imploid in other feilds.

As long As They Are Payed, not bought or sold, and have the right to own possesions this is fine. This is Compusary millitary service which is smiled apon in most countries, including mine.

The same could be said about any child born. They did not ask to be born, it's not their fault that they now exist. For example, those children with debilitating and extremely painful illnesses: they were not asked to be brought into this world, and are afflicted with horrid agony throughout the rest of their lives through no fault of their own. Would you endorse aborting any late-term fetus that was observed having these disease?

This is the case but these Children will someday have a choice, if life is undiserable it can be removed, any way only 1/7000 of the population have Deadly Childhood illness, and another 25% of that can be cured.

This Will Come to avail we are both strongly set in our opinions, and we are just saying the same thing in different words over and over again.

OCC- Bloody Great Discussion by the way

This is the case but these Children will someday have a choice, if life is undiserable it can be removed, any way only 1/7000 of the population have Deadly Childhood illness, and another 25% of that can be cured.

This Will Come to avail we are both strongly set in our opinions, and we are just saying the same thing in different words over and over again.

OCC- Bloody Great Discussion by the way

OOC: Same to you, I love playing devil's advocate. I'm just kind of disappointed you never realized that I don't use cloned soldiers.

Well, in Kablakhul, clones are normally fordibben in order to ignore this subject. The only exeptions are sterile people, who can get clones of themselves if they have the money. These "parents" do not enslave thier clones, hawever, but rather must raise them as they would a "natural" child.

i veiw view clones as the property of the maker in my case the goverment. when the goverment creates a clone they selected for a certain purpase then they carry out that purpase. they are if anything givin less rights. than the orignal.

Clones in Ald Rhun are quite a common site. However, the Empire prefers to obtain it's human slaves via wars of conquest. For some odd reason, Rhuns have come to the conclusion that free-range human tastes better. Before they are eaten, slaves and clone slaves are often used as expendable forced labor and military forces, the only fates that humans are fit to fulfill. After all, if you place no value on human life in the first place, it's not immoral at all.

This is the case but these Children will someday have a choice, if life is undiserable it can be removed, any way only 1/7000 of the population have Deadly Childhood illness, and another 25% of that can be cured.
Only if your state allows euthanasia. Ald Rhun, for example, only allows ritual suicide by gladiatoral combat.

i veiw view clones as the property of the maker in my case the goverment. when the goverment creates a clone they selected for a certain purpase then they carry out that purpase. they are if anything givin less rights. than the orignal.
Then you also support standard human slavery? As they are, really, one and the same.

Bonus01 does not consider clones 'slaves' at all. Clones are merely 'human' in appearance. They look 'human', and maybe, just maybe, act 'human', but they are not human. They are, I guess you can say, 'robots'. They are 'programmed' to do what they do, just like a robot. They can be 'trained' if one puts the program of that into the brain of the clone. If no program is input into the clone's brain, it is a shell, and is stored in a cryo-chamber until needed, sort of like a robot in a warehouse. Without clones, many nations would have to use either robots, which can make mistakes, I'm not saying clones can't, and break down, or 'natural' humans, who, if die, are irreplaceable.

Bonus01 does not consider clones 'slaves' at all. Clones are merely 'human' in appearance. They look 'human', and maybe, just maybe, act 'human', but they are not human. They are, I guess you can say, 'robots'. They are 'programmed' to do what they do, just like a robot. They can be 'trained' if one puts the program of that into the brain of the clone. If no program is input into the clone's brain, it is a shell, and is stored in a cryo-chamber until needed, sort of like a robot in a warehouse. Without clones, many nations would have to use either robots, which can make mistakes, I'm not saying clones can't, and break down, or 'natural' humans, who, if die, are irreplaceable.

OCC- I'm back to make easily reversed points.
IC The problem with this logic is it's completely off, they have all defining parts of a human and as heavily discussed, possibly the emotions of a human. And of course they are slaves unless that is if you can afford to pay an army of 15 million.

OCC- I'm back to make easily reversed points.
IC The problem with this logic is it's completely off, they have all defining parts of a human and as heavily discussed, possibly the emotions of a human. And of course they are slaves unless that is if you can afford to pay an army of 15 million.Possibly is the key word there. And like I said, they are just like robots, empty shells with programs input into them. They can not have emotions. They are, like I said before (twice), empty shells. To have emotions, they need be programmed to have emotions. Sure they look like us, and can be programmed to act like us, but they are not us, not human, and therefore can be controlled completely. A slave has emotions, the ability to think freely, and does not need programming.

Possibly is the key word there. And like I said, they are just like robots, empty shells with programs input into them. They can not have emotions. They are, like I said before (twice), empty shells. To have emotions, they need be programmed to have emotions. Sure they look like us, and can be programmed to act like us, but they are not us, not human, and therefore can be controlled completely. A slave has emotions, the ability to think freely, and does not need programming.
Ald Rhun uses this evidence to support it's claims of Rhun dominance. Humans (not just clones) show none of the basic signs of higher sentience, and thus are mere fodder for our projects and appetites. Humans show no true emotions, and are incapable of rational thought. Thus, humans are fit for nothing more than a "life" in our fodder-pits.

Possibly is the key word there. And like I said, they are just like robots, empty shells with programs input into them. They can not have emotions. They are, like I said before (twice), empty shells. To have emotions, they need be programmed to have emotions. Sure they look like us, and can be programmed to act like us, but they are not us, not human, and therefore can be controlled completely. A slave has emotions, the ability to think freely, and does not need programming.

For starters robots could not have emotions, emotions need glands or at least most of them. Clones are still setient creatures, otherwise they would not be able to obey any order at all. Here is another quote from an on line dictionary, but not a very good one I expect, for slavery. " The state of any sentient creature in captivity, working against it's will." Or from one of my own dictionaries " A person who is the property of another." Ergo if you buy any Sentient Creature, it is slavery.

It remains the opinion of The Republic this is an issue for discussion by the United Nations or other sanctioned bodies of international law to which a nation binds itself. Rotovia will not enter into discussion on this matter.

[signed]
Dr Sarah Hours
Minister for the Republic
Acting Minister for Foreign Affairs

For starters robots could not have emotions, emotions need glands or at least most of them. Clones are still setient creatures, otherwise they would not be able to obey any order at all. Here is another quote from an on line dictionary, but not a very good one I expect, for slavery. " The state of any sentient creature in captivity, working against it's will." Or from one of my own dictionaries " A person who is the property of another." Ergo if you buy any Sentient Creature, it is slavery.We did not say that clones did not have organs. They are human in apperance, and have all the organs of a 'natural human' except they have a special gene, effectivley called the 'programmable gene' which gives them a completely blank mind, meaning they have nothing in their brains until it is programmed into it. That is why they are put into cryo, so they don't suffocate. As for eating them, you could proboly input a different gene to change the taste. Another debatable issue : Is eating Clones considered Cannibalism? You decide.
OOC: Someone might want to make a new topic about that, or we could just keep that to ourselves...

OOC: Ah. So you lobotomize your clones. Which brings up the whole seperate question of whether that's ethical.

OOC: As to the whole thing of clones being used as slaves...Isn't it cheaper to build robots? Robots who can do twice the work in half the time? Why use clones? They're no stronger than normal people of the race. Who that can make clones can't make mechanical beings to do the work the clones would do if they became slaves?

OOC: The one thing that (non-lobotomized) clones can do that robots can't is show initiative. Clones can think for themselves, robots can't (unless you're using some incredibly complex AI that has a chance of backfiring on you). Course, this also means clones have a chance of revolting on you... Otherwise, robots all the way, unless you're some crazy technophobic society like FH's Dune. Also, clones taste better than robots.

OOC: Ah. I was really talking about the whole labor-aspect. Robots without AI are safer (no revolts) like you said, and they're just better workers than humans...And cheaper...No food or water required. And they don't sleep either. Just a bit of greasing for any rust.

Anyway, do slaves really need to think? Isn't the point of the clones being slaves that they don't think, just work?

PS: I actually don't use robots or clones as slaves myself. All robots are programmed to have emotions and are treated as equal citizens (and make up most of the population too).

The two young women appear vaguely cute, they are in their early twenties, or probably their late teens, and absolutely identical in appearance. Which is partly due to the clothing, and partly due to the fact that they're identical twins. Which does, incidentally, make the slightly (A few minutes) younger one a clone of the slightly (A few minutes) older one.

They start talking.

"To whoever claims that clones aren't human-"

"-Fuck you."

The two young women appear vaguely cute, they are in their early twenties, or probably their late teens, and absolutely identical in appearance. Which is partly due to the clothing, and partly due to the fact that they're identical twins. Which does, incidentally, make the slightly (A few minutes) younger one a clone of the slightly (A few minutes) older one.

They start talking.

"To whoever claims that clones aren't human-"

"-Fuck you."

OOC: As a clone myself, I love that argument.

The two young women appear vaguely cute, they are in their early twenties, or probably their late teens, and absolutely identical in appearance. Which is partly due to the clothing, and partly due to the fact that they're identical twins. Which does, incidentally, make the slightly (A few minutes) younger one a clone of the slightly (A few minutes) older one.

They start talking.

"To whoever claims that clones aren't human-"

"-Fuck you."Well, that is very, ummmm....hrmmm...uhhh, well, fuck you!

OOC: Ouch...Der Angst :sniper:

The two young women appear vaguely cute, they are in their early twenties, or probably their late teens, and absolutely identical in appearance. Which is partly due to the clothing, and partly due to the fact that they're identical twins. Which does, incidentally, make the slightly (A few minutes) younger one a clone of the slightly (A few minutes) older one.

They start talking.

"To whoever claims that clones aren't human-"

"-Fuck you."
You do realize, of course, that if one of these women is the original, and the other is a clone, that they could not be the same age, right? Unless she was cloned at birth.

You do realize, of course, that if one of these women is the original, and the other is a clone, that they could not be the same age, right? Unless she was cloned at birth.
No, it's quite easy for them to be the same age. THEY'RE IDENTICAL TWINS. Right, do I have to use small words for you? In the womb, the egg splits, becoming two eggs, both genetically identical. One embryo becomes two. Biological cloning, which I have personally experienced.

Quite. Now submit to slavery by your betters, worm. ;)

No, it's quite easy for them to be the same age. THEY'RE IDENTICAL TWINS. Right, do I have to use small words for you? In the womb, the egg splits, becoming two eggs, both genetically identical. One embryo becomes two. Biological cloning, which I have personally experienced.
Oh, I thought you were saying that they were clones.

That's because WE ARE, moron.