NationStates Jolt Archive

[OOC: Yes, whilst we all groan in unison, it is another assault rifle. In my defense, however, this at least incorporates some interesting ideas(most raised by the ACR topic).]

MA/MM FR.5
Developer: Minaduki Arms and Makihara Munitions
Caliber: 6.8x47mm Juuamnistran
Firing Action/Mechanism: Bull-pup floating-caseless-chamber
Firing Modes: Semi-automatic, three-round-burst, full automatic
Overall Length: 918mm
Barrel Length: 722mm
Weight, Nominal: 3.59kg
Weight, Combat: 5.64kg
Magazine: 60 round curved-box
Rate of Fire: 550rpm(semi-automatic), 2,100rpm(three-round-burst)
Maximum Range: 900m[conventional], 650m[duplex], 1200m[fletchette]
Maximum Effective Range: 550m[conventional], 400m[duplex], 800m[fletchette]
Optimum Range: 50-450m[conventional], 15-300m[duplex], 30-600m[fletchette]
Muzzle Velocity: ~1,150m/s[conventional], ~1,000+800m/s[duplex], ~1,300m/s[fletchette]
Equipment Options: PEATR, grenade launcher, shotgun, anti-personnel cannon, illuminator, optical sight, ironsight, bayonet
Service Life: 55,000 rounds
Cost: $1,560 per basic unit; price varies based on attachments and supplemental weapons.

Accuracy. Range. Stopping power. For generations, this has seemed to be the iron triangle of firearms design. You could have two of them, but not three. It is thus with great pleasure that Minaduki Arms and Makihara Munitions, two of Juumanistra's foremost defense contractors, present an assault rifle that attempts to break that triangle by providing previously unseen accuracy and stopping power at all ranges.

Ammunition

Nothing defines the MA/MM FR.5 more than its ammunition does. The FR.5 delivers consumers three options to consumers; caseless 6.8x47mm conventional rounds, 6.8/6.8x47mm caseless duplex round, and the 6.8x47mm tungsten-headed blended metal fletchette. Both the duplex and fletchette rounds offer distinct advantages over the conventional caseless 6.8 Juumanistran, but the Juumanistran Army currently utilizes the fletchette due to its greater easy of use, marginally superior performance against body armor, and recoil and range constraints of the still mostly experimental Double 6.8.

The 6.8 fletchette is composed of two main parts; a dedicated penetrator head made of tungsten and an iron noodle shaft. The penetrator head is optimized for fighting modern forces equipped with body armor; the tungsten head's density provides superior penetrating power against infantry armor than conventional reinforced steel and its habit its deformation from impact upon the armor helps generate a more grevious wound than a conventional fletchette would create. In the same vein, the shaft of the fletchette has been structurally compromised in multiple locations, allowing it to sway to-and-fro to a fair degree as it passes through its target, creating more extensive wounds or, should it fragment or deform whilst in transit, far more complex wounds than would otherwise exist.

Firing Mechanism

The MA/MM FR.5 uses a firing mechanism derived in-large part from the H&K G11, utilizing a floating chamber to load each round into the firing chamber. Instead of using G11's rotating chamber, however, the FR.5 uses an elevating chamber that drops, seizes the top round and then chambers it. This has led to a somewhat slower rate-of-fire in burst mode than the G11 or other contemporary caseless firearms, though the altered firing mechanism also facilitates a much more conventional aesthetic design; the FR.5 resembles a bull-pup assault rifle, an apparent cousin of the SA80/L85, and is thus much easier to transition to than other, more unconventional systems.

Combat Efficacy
Ambitious ammunition and a unique firing mechanism are fine-and-dandy, but how does the FR.5 perform on the battlefield? Rest assured, the weapon does not disappoint. The weapon's effective range is superior to that of both the M4/M16 and AK-47/74/101 families and it is capable of giving accurate man-stopping power all the way out to its effective range. The weapon's immense effective range is due largely to to the floating firing mechanism, which delays feeling of recoil until after the third round in a burst is fired; the ability to put between three and six bullets on target before feeling recoil is an incredible advantage on the battlefield, though the recoil is not as negligible as it is on the M4/M16 family of firearms(and the kick of the duplex round is even worse than that on weapons firing the 7.62x51mm cartridge). Indeed, it is this floating chamber and its delaying of the effects of recoil that make the MA/MM FR.5 so precise and deadly, as with a single sighting multiple bullets or fletchettes can be placed on-target without having to change a soldier's aiming of the weapon to compensate for recoil.

Durability

Before entering service , the FR.5 underwent the most extensive battery of tests a firearm has ever had to endure in order to enter service within the Army. The weapon passed with flying colors. It is capable of operating a temperatures as low as fifty degrees below zero and as high as one-hundred forty. It has also performed unhindered in extreme environs, performing superbly in desert, swampy, and arctic climes to the point where it has been contended that the harsher the climate, the better the rifle performs. At one point, in a fairly off-the-wall test, the weapon was dropped off a three-hundred foot cliff. Upon its landing, designers were amazed to find that it was still intact; and even more amazed to find that it was still capable of functioning properly.

Versatility

The FR.5 delivers multiple hardpoints on each of the barrel's four faces, as well as a mount above the pistol grip. The FR.5 is capable of supporting most stock and foreign supplemental bayonets, grenade launchers, combat shotguns, and anti-personnel cannons, as well the indigenous Personal Anti-Tank Round(PEATR). The system is also capable of mounting indigenous, stock, or foreign scopes and non-supplemental weapons such as silencers, illumintaors, or scopes.

[The PEATR(pronounced "peter", like the first Pope or star of Family Guy) is a 52mm dumbfire rocket that is mounted on the underside of the barrel like the grenade launcher on the M203. The weapon is little more than a micro-HEAT round with an effective range of roughly 50m designed to provide individual soldiers with some stopping power against Humvees and light armored vehicles like the Piranha and LAV.]

Why Buy the FR.5?

I'm sure this is a pressing question on the minds of potential consumers at a time when there is not one, but three new caseless intermediate caliber weapons on the market; the FR.5, Doomingsland's DR-31A1, and USSNA's CAS-2. The FR.5 delivers the most powerful round of the three, providing superior muzzle velocity and to the DR-31A1's 6.7x41mm and CAS-2's 6.5x45mm. In addition, it provides superior diversity of ammunition featuring the Double 6.8 and 6.8 fletchette in addition to conventional 6.8 caseless. And, whilst significantly more expensive than the DR-31A1 or CAS-2, the weapon provides a much a greater service life and is almost indestructable.

*=*=*=*=*=*

[OOC: I probably overplayed the salesmanship a bit and, in all likelihood, mangled the laws of physics too. But, with this kind of stuff, you learn by doing and having others call you on your mistakes. So I ask for scolding for getting the mechanical aspects wrong, but I'd appreciate civility in any and all criticisms.]

[Edit #1: Taking into account discussions about the issue, stats have been tweaked and emphasis has been shifted to the 6.8 fletchette.]

[Edit #2: A bit more stat tweaking and the addition of the "Why Buy the FR.5?" section in light of review of Doomingsland's and USSNA's new rifles.]

[ooc: its a little late for me to critqueat the moment let alone fully read it, but I'll give it a good look over tomorrow, till then though glad to see you back Juu!]

[Kinda-sorta glad to be back, Mekugi. Doubting any of my stuff will generate any more attention than it did last time around, but design and implementation of this sort of stuff is half the fun of NS for me.

And I guess this can be considered a bump.]

We'll take 2 fully equipped rifles for testing in the Leafanistani Arms Council for possible procurement.

$3,800 w/PEATR has been wired.

Only thing I have to say is that the double round design does offer great stopping power, but the rounds would be heavier and have less range.

Look at it this way. Lets just say for the argument that 45mm round is broken up into parts of 5mm, 9 parts. Now lets say a normal round has 6 parts propelent and 3 parts the round itself. Now you put another round in there, it now become 3 parts propelent and 3 parts the 2 rounds. You decreace the propelent and increase what it has to put out. The round would have the be bigger to get similar muzzle velocity and range out of the same kind without the 2nd bullet.

The round that I use is a 6.8mm caseless blended metal one.

Leafistan: Two PEATR launcher equipped FR.5s have been crated up with several dozen PEATRs to provide for is hoped adequate testing by the Leafistani Army; should more ammunition be required, simply let either contractor know and more shall be dispatched with all due haste.

[OOC: USSNA, you do bring up a good point; I'm the first to acknowledge that my knowledge of duplex rounds is far from perfect, as reading material on the subject on the 'Net is somewhat sparse. But, from what I have been able to find, I found nothing one-way or the other on duplex rounds causing loss of range, though the counter to that is that the duplexes that I could find information on had shorter effective ranges than what's being proposed in the FR.5. So, I suppose my options are, for retaining a duplex 6.8mm round would be either a) say it's a work of NS Science and leave it at that, b) come up with some mumbo-jumbo about a super-duper new proprietary powder that lets me attain higher velocities out of a more compact round, or c) lengthen the round itself, possibly in conjunction with B. Extending the round, however, would make the recoil problem even worse, as it would probably have be enlarged beyond fifty milimeters and would, in variably, produce more kick than a 7.62x51mm Kalashnikov.

Might simply be easier to drop the duplex round idea and, instead, opt for flechettes. Different kind of unconventional ammunition, but unconvention nonetheless.]

[ooc: flechettes are good for several reasons; flat trajectory, excellant penetration, light weight per cartridge, low chance fo richochet. They also lack stopping power (small rather clean hole through the target) this is not to say they wouldnt hurt like hell, but they wont expand as well as traditional bullet.. one idea that may work is to finda way to use a blended metal tip for the first quarter or so of its length so that pentration agaisnt hard targets is retianed overall but upon contact with flesh the tip expands and leaves the body with a blunt tip causeing it to wobble or bend in the body and cause a nasty wound cavity.

Again thats just one idea that may work, Im sure there are several adaquete solutions.

EDIT: Another good idea is to take a standard Fletchette, and weaken it at two or three places and then press mold blended metal alloy into the grooves to reinforce it so that you get the excellant penetration that when in contact with flesh then becomes like an iron noodle breaking up into lethal fragments or bending and making mlutiple twisted wound channels ]

[ooc: Well if you get enough of the little things in a target, it will go down. Kinda like a shotgun.]

[OOC: Upon continued consideration, and Mekugi's rather dastardly Iron Death Noodle suggestion, methinks fletchettes are the way to go; not nearly as complex as a duplex round by still nonconventional and providing increased lethality. I would think a tungsten penetrator head would be in order, as it provides better penetration on harder targets and it notorious mushrooming effects would actually be an advantage on human flesh(of course, that's based on bold assumption human flesh is hard enough to generate mushrooming, which I'm not sure of). Though I have the sinking feeling by the time this project ends I'm going to have a weapon that breaks a dozen or so UN conventions and assorted other international agreements.]

[OOC:UN agreements and the Geneva Convention are out of date in real life I think. War isn't country vs country anymore. It's a country vs a group of gurilla fighters.

Besides, most of those agreements dont exist in NS.]

TO: MA/MM FR.5 Makers
FROM: Special Forces of The Holy Empire of Asgarnieu
SUBJECT: Purchase


Dear Sirs,

We are very interested in purchasing some of your fine weapons. We would like to purchase the following:

-1000- MA/MM FR.5 (With PEATR) With [Blended Metal Flechette Rounds, and 5,000,000 Magnum Rounds (loaded with blended metal flechette rounds)]

For the guns, we will pay $1,900,000 USD, and for the special ammo we requested, $5,000,000 USD. Thank You.


We look forward to seeing more interesting inventions from you in the future.

Respectfully,

General Thomas V. Eglin
Special Forces of The Holy Empire of Asgarnieu

Asgarnieu: Confirmed; they're being loaded and transported as we speak. A pleasure doing business with you. We would, of course, love feedback on how the weapon performs once you and your special forces have become accustomed to the gun.

[OOC: USSNA, true, but still; most of the time I try to play to the moral high-ground, and having a weapon that breaks most of the convents of civilized warfare(whether it exists or has ever existed) does a number on one's ability to claim said high ground.]

Will do, Sir.

Hehehe, you and doomingsisland will have a new rifle to contend with. I havent named it or finished it yet but this is what I have so far:

Type: Bullpup Assault Rifle
Name: XXXX
Fire Modes: Semi-Automatic, 3 Round Burst, Full Automatic
Calibre: 6.5 x 45mm, CBMR
Barrel Length: 686mm (27")
Overall Length: 838mm (33")
Magazine Capacity: 60 rounds
Rate Of Fire:
-Full-Auto: 580-620 rounds/min
-Burst: 2,000+ rounds/min
Muzzel Velocity: 940 m/s
Maximum Effective Range: 900 meters
Mass without Magizine: 3.25kg (6.71 lbs)
Mass with Magazine: 3.96kg (8.1 lbs)

Overall

The XXXX is a new Bullpup Assault designed to replace the M-16, M-4, M8, Tavor, AK-74 and dirvities, G36 and most other real life assault rifles. It combines accuracy, range, magazine capacity, stopping power, and technology all in one rifle package.

Design

The XXX is of a bullpup design to make the rifle shorter and lighter while still having a long barrel. This quality of being small and light has been requested by soliders for a long time and is reflected in the designs of the M8 and M-4. To further the rifles design of being light and durable, the rifle is made largely out of plastics, comosites, and titanium. It should be noted that the gun fires electronically; there are no other moving parts in the trigger mechanism other than the trigger itself.

Ammunition

The CBMR, or Caseless Blended Metal Round, is a 6.5 x 45mm 130 grain Caseless round with a Blended Metal bullet. It is based on a modified 6.5 Grendal cartride. The round is remarkable in that it stays supersonic beyond 1,000 meters. This round is also very accurate. At 800 meters a decent shooter can fire the whole 60 round magazine in a 8 in diameter group, while using semi-auto or 3 round burst. These combined give the rifle and excelent effective range while having recoil similar to a 5.56 NATO round.

Electronics

Built into the rifle are a laser rangefinder that can give its information to any attachment and red dot laser sight that can switch between a regular red dot or an invisable infared dot. These 2 systems work together in that the laser designator controls the red dot sight so that it changes elevation based on range; ensuring that the dot is where the bullet will hit.

Other electronic options include an infared, night vision, TV gun camera that can be mounted on top of the rifle so that it can be aimed around corners or over objects.

Hey! You read my ACR post! *does little dance*

These are my designs that DIRECTLY stemmed from these concepts:

Fletchette Heavy Marksman's Rifle (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/SAG_ACR)

The Needler: Banshee, BuzzGun, whatever you call it... it hurts. (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/SAG_N.01_Needler)

They look good, but I doubt there effective ness at long range. They are very light and would lose energy at a certain point. This is largely my concern with the PDW version of the gun with only 2mm rounds.

They look good, but I doubt there effective ness at long range. They are very light and would lose energy at a certain point. This is largely my concern with the PDW version of the gun with only 2mm rounds.
Oh, yeah. The max range on that thing is about half a football field. The cartridges are meant for room to room shootouts and pointblank devastation. Shock tactics at a new level.

just a few things.
1. Your 3 round burst is too slow. To take full advantage of the "salvo" effect that the G11 had. You need to boost your rate of fire in 3 round burst.
2. 6.8mm ammunition is all well and good but you dont need it if you are planning to use the salvo effect. You should opt for a smaller callibre as this will enable your troops to carry more ammunition and wont affect the stopping power of the rifle too much as 3 4.7mm rounds delivered almost simultainusly will have much the same effect a 3 6.8mm rounds. Also, using a smaller round will reduce the effect wind has on it and will increase the accuracy over extreme ranges.
3. there is no such round as the 7.62x51mm kalashnikov. There is the 7.62x51 NATO, the 7.62x54 Russian, the 7.62x25 Russian and the 7.62x39 Russian.

Other than that great job!

Oh, yeah. The max range on that thing is about half a football field. The cartridges are meant for room to room shootouts and pointblank devastation. Shock tactics at a new level.

Neato.

just a few things.
1. Your 3 round burst is too slow. To take full advantage of the "salvo" effect that the G11 had. You need to boost your rate of fire in 3 round burst.
2. 6.8mm ammunition is all well and good but you dont need it if you are planning to use the salvo effect. You should opt for a smaller callibre as this will enable your troops to carry more ammunition and wont affect the stopping power of the rifle too much as 3 4.7mm rounds delivered almost simultainusly will have much the same effect a 3 6.8mm rounds. Also, using a smaller round will reduce the effect wind has on it and will increase the accuracy over extreme ranges.
3. there is no such round as the 7.62x51mm kalashnikov. There is the 7.62x51 NATO, the 7.62x54 Russian, the 7.62x25 Russian and the 7.62x39 Russian.

Other than that great job!

Ah, but my friend, this is NationStates. 3 4.7mm rounds wont do much to even NS bodyarmor. I think the 6.8 would be a good round. I prefer the 6.5mm one, but 6.8 is good aswell.

Ah, but my friend, this is NationStates. 3 4.7mm rounds wont do much to even NS bodyarmor. I think the 6.8 would be a good round. I prefer the 6.5mm one, but 6.8 is good aswell.
So, are you rooting for the 6.5 Grendel in the SPC contests for the US? (Real Life makes its unholy appearance.)

(Yea, but the 6.8 will most likely get the cotract due to more advertisement.)

Ah, but my friend, this is NationStates. 3 4.7mm rounds wont do much to even NS bodyarmor. I think the 6.8 would be a good round. I prefer the 6.5mm one, but 6.8 is good aswell.
Penetration depends on more than calibre my freind. What if these were super uber ultra high velocity rounds made of depleated uranium? (Ok, I'm being silly now but I'm just pointing out that bigger isnt always better). And the body armour? If its enough to stop the High velocity AP rounds that the G11 uses we may as well start using FN FALs loaded with hollow point ammo to knock the wearers flat on their arse.

just a few things.
1. Your 3 round burst is too slow. To take full advantage of the "salvo" effect that the G11 had. You need to boost your rate of fire in 3 round burst.
2. 6.8mm ammunition is all well and good but you dont need it if you are planning to use the salvo effect. You should opt for a smaller callibre as this will enable your troops to carry more ammunition and wont affect the stopping power of the rifle too much as 3 4.7mm rounds delivered almost simultainusly will have much the same effect a 3 6.8mm rounds. Also, using a smaller round will reduce the effect wind has on it and will increase the accuracy over extreme ranges.
3. there is no such round as the 7.62x51mm kalashnikov. There is the 7.62x51 NATO, the 7.62x54 Russian, the 7.62x25 Russian and the 7.62x39 Russian.

Other than that great job!

1) There's one small problem here; my warfighting doctrine doesn't fully embrace the salvo effect and the FR.5 reflects that. With most of NS still using M4s, M16s, and AK-47s/74s/101s that couldn't hope to attain more than a thousand rounds a minute of fire, sixteen hundred is more than enough for my purposes, especially when combined with a much more lethal round than was found on the G11. The slower rate of fire also reflects the fact that compromises were made in the weapon's design to easy the transition to the new system from the T3R.21(which was, functionally, an M4 clone), as the ammunition loading mechanism is a little more roundabout than on the G11, the weapon really couldn't attain 2,000 or more rounds on burst fire even if it wanted to.

2) As previously mentioned, the salvo effect is not really the goal and, as USSNA also said, the 4.7x33mm(IIRC) that the G11 used wouldn't really do all that much against NS body armor. The 6.8x47mm fletchette used in the weapon is largely designed for NS body armor, or about as well as any round can be designed, as postings about NS body armor tend to be few and far between(I've got mine lying somewhere and I might just take my own advice and redump Aegis onto the boards). The weapon is also designed as a standard-issue infantry weapon, meaning the extreme range stand-offs are fairly low on the priority list.

3) I thought that the Russians had used the 7.62x51mm. I stand corrected.

Bump for expsoure and such.

Another bump for additional insights, comments, or thoughts.

Thank you for pointing these things out to me reguarding your design. This has cleared up some confusion I had previosly had. I suggested the decreased effects of wind on the round because your fletchette round has a claimed effective range of 1200m. This is a rather long distance for an assault weapon to be effective and it seemed (to me at least) that effectiveness in long range engaugments was a priority.
Also, making it so that recoil from a 3 shot burst is felt after the 3rd shot has cleared the barrel is, bassicly, the salvo approach. That is to say that you launch multiple projectiles simultaneously or almost simultaneously.
You will have to forgive me but I feel that with casless ammunition there is practicly no excuse for not being able to fire 2000rpm in burst mode. (especially since the AN-94 can fire, in two shot bursts, at 1800rpm with cased ammunition)
In addition to all this I would be interested to know what the weight of a full magazine of your fletchette ammunition is or atleast how many rounds, in magazines, can be carried within the 7.35Kg accepted weight limit for the weapon and ammunition availible to the soldier carrying it. You should aim to have at least 240 rounds within this weight (the number of rounds that the M16A2 can be carried with at 7.35Kg)

Thank you for pointing these things out to me reguarding your design. This has cleared up some confusion I had previosly had. I suggested the decreased effects of wind on the round because your fletchette round has a claimed effective range of 1200m. This is a rather long distance for an assault weapon to be effective and it seemed (to me at least) that effectiveness in long range engaugments was a priority.
Also, making it so that recoil from a 3 shot burst is felt after the 3rd shot has cleared the barrel is, bassicly, the salvo approach. That is to say that you launch multiple projectiles simultaneously or almost simultaneously.
You will have to forgive me but I feel that with casless ammunition there is practicly no excuse for not being able to fire 2000rpm in burst mode. (especially since the AN-94 can fire, in two shot bursts, at 1800rpm with cased ammunition)
In addition to all this I would be interested to know what the weight of a full magazine of your fletchette ammunition is or atleast how many rounds, in magazines, can be carried within the 7.35Kg accepted weight limit for the weapon and ammunition availible to the soldier carrying it. You should aim to have at least 240 rounds within this weight (the number of rounds that the M16A2 can be carried with at 7.35Kg)

1) The maximum range was also a bit of salesmanship; to achieve that kind of range, one would have to have absolutely optimum environmental conditions. That said, you usually couldn't achieve that kind of distance in combat, let alone accuracy. The main entry has been updated with the seperation of maximum effective range from maximum range; the maximum effective range is, generally speaking, roughly three-quarters of their absolute maximum range.

2) The lower rate-of-fire in burst mode had, originally, been there to account for a somewhat more cumbersome loading process than was on the G11; from what I had gathered, half of the G11's speed came from the drop-down loading of ammunition and that removing that particular part of the mechanism, its rate-of-fire would suffer. Of course, if people are complaining that it's not firing nearly fast enough in burst-mode, I may well be convinced to boost its rate-of-fire. ;)

3) Given that a pimped out weapon, with scope, illuminator, supplemental weapon, and a loaded 60-round magazine is roughly ~5.6kg and I'd guesstimate that a fully loaded 60-round magazine would weigh ~.45kg, you could carry three additional magazines for a total of 240 rounds at ~6.9kg, well under the 7.35kg limit or 300 rounds at ~7.4kg just a smidge over. Dropping off accessories from the weapon would also free-up more weight to carry more ammo.

Bump, for what it's worth.

Another couple of bumps and I'll let the thread die.