NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a thread for R&D for Pushka and my new fighter project.

Pushka: You can post your ideas here.

Okay this is a little rough around the edges but we can go into details later.

RO-103 Korshun-I

RO-103 is a first rocket of Korshun class. Designed by Institute of Rocket Propelled Missiles at Orlov it is a new generation of air-to-air missiles and is unmatched by any of its competitors.

Design:

The rocket consists of two parts. The lower part with subsonic impulse engine, and the upper part with hypersonic scramjet engine. Thruster on the lower engine is a 3D vector thruster that allows the lower part to maneuver. Upper part thruster is fixed, the upper rocket is maneuvered by using snap-out wings that are controlled by rocket’s computer in correlation with the tracking system.

Procedure:

Mish-11 pilot marks a target on his VRPB, presses the fire button, (For the sake of fully demonstrating the rocket’s capabilities lets say that the enemy is behind Mish-11) the rocket is released and the subsonic thruster is engaged. The rocket traveling at subsonic speeds uses its vector thruster to do a quick back flip to align its tip with the target. All of this takes a little over a second. Once the tip is aligned with the target the subsonic engine bursts in a controlled explosion propelling the upper part towards the target over 500 m/s. Once the speed is sufficient scramjet engines come online, propelling the rocket forward at speeds reaching mach 12. The wings that snapped out during the subsonic stage guide the rocket into its target.

Tracking:

Once the rocket leaves the plane its no longer a part of it in any way. The rocket has its own IL that transfers VRPB data right into the tracking system.

This is medium range I'm guessing as the time to get to Mach 12 would make it too long for short-range.

Very good design. I might develop a missile also for this after we develop the aircraft. It will be in a different class (range) than this one. Maybe short-range or long-range depending on what your missile is.

OOC: I'm wondering how a Mach 12 rocket with snap out wings would work?
Do you have heat shielding for the extreme amount of friction it will encounter?
How is it guided, how could on impulse propell the rocket to Mach 5+ for the scramjet to work with out the sheer force of acceleration riping it apart?
How do wings deploy at Mach 12 with out being sheered off?
Why does it even need ings?

OOC: My thoughts exactly. Don't be surprised that the missile can't hit anything beyond a bomber or airliner - while it would have a lower response time, no matter what measures you put on it, it isn't going to be very maneuverable - assuming, of course, you can actually put guidance on it.

Higher speed =/= better in any and all circumstances. It's an undeniable fact that cannot be refuted in any way.

Do you have heat shielding for the extreme amount of friction it will encounter?

Its still a rough design, however i don't see why we need a heat shield, i can just say that its shaped to reduce friction and made of friction reducing materials, its not like its going to fly for long.

How is it guided, how could on impulse propell the rocket to Mach 5+ for the scramjet to work with out the sheer force of acceleration riping it apart?

I covered that in the write up didn't i? Its all in there please read, i said how its guided. As for the other thing,there is a controlled explosion in the lower part, this thing acts like a bullet, there is an explosion and the easiet way for the force to exist is by pushing out the upper part of the rocket, thus creating pressure, thus propelling the rocket up to a very high speed. There are rockets that fly at Mach 8, mach 9, and mach 12 is possible. Where is not enough acceleration force to rip it apart.

How do wings deploy at Mach 12 with out being sheered off?
Why does it even need ings?

The wings are deployed before it hits the sound barrier as discribed in my write up. Why it needs wings? Well i don't know, maybe so it can be guided.

OOC: My thoughts exactly. Don't be surprised that the missile can't hit anything beyond a bomber or airliner - while it would have a lower response time, no matter what measures you put on it, it isn't going to be very maneuverable - assuming, of course, you can actually put guidance on it.

Higher speed =/= better in any and all circumstances. It's an undeniable fact that cannot be refuted in any way.

Excuse me but i don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that this missile won't be able to hit an enemy plane? What are you saying?

This is medium range I'm guessing as the time to get to Mach 12 would make it too long for short-range.

Very good design. I might develop a missile also for this after we develop the aircraft. It will be in a different class (range) than this one. Maybe short-range or long-range depending on what your missile is.

Well this thing can become Short-range or long-range just need a little variation of the statistics, its not that difficult. I am most certainly gonna make long and short versions for my own use.

Well this thing can become Short-range or long-range just need a little variation of the statistics, its not that difficult. I am most certainly gonna make long and short versions for my own use.

Also Pushka since you are doing avionics, could you put in the virtual reality system that I have employed in the F-76. You can copy&paste it if you like or you can edit it to your suiting.

If the missile is totaly independent when you fire the missile, how does it track behind it? Also, they way you described how it is launched would make it impossible to flip like you said, you also have the chance of hitting your own missile. You'd be better of just making a manuverable missile that travle a mach 4-5 maybe even 6. But any higher and you wont get much manuverability. Scramjet work best for long range missiles not short range.

I don't know dude, what is it for? I got my own system of sorts, VRPB, its the one i use on all of my SUBS equipment including the BU-1. Its basically a virtual represenation of all things that go on the battelfield, what it does is let any unit know what any other unit is doing. So for example your fighters radar doesn't pick up the enemy plane, however the ground radar does, the ground radar's data is transfered to HQs that accumulate all the information from the battelfield in a single model and send it to you, so you can see the enemy plane and can lock on it even if your own aircraft's sensors don't pick it up, the info from your sensors is also transfered from HQs and so on.

Forget all forms of propultion and fuels wich are known to date meaning the 21 centuary.
Anti matter and stella propultion is the 22nd centuary of propultion is in fact technology that has been around for the later decade and more. During the last space war just on the outers skirts of our high orbital sattelites a nation has succeded in dominating the earth power houses. Bases which have been established on the moon for around 15 years or so played the major role in a united front agains the so called allies or ufo sightings. This my friends is something you all should sit back in your chairs and take a closer look at. The UFO's were not some green men from mars or strange creatures, but DNA human beings which are not from any western country, this type of information is easily accessible but hidden among the many useless information wich surfs the net thus giving it the ultimate in stealth ability to freely be mailed and recieved on various forums..

HAVE A NICE DAY

EL

Are you saying that this missile won't be able to hit an enemy plane?
...and that's my entire point - that the speed that the missile travel at makes it impossible to achieve much maneuverability. The missile simply travels too fast to be accurate and to keep up with a smaller target, such as a fighter. You are correct that there are missiles that travels at such speeds, but they aren't anti-aircraft weapon systems now, are they?

What are you saying?
I think I expressed it in a way that is logical but understandable enough.

If the missile is totaly independent when you fire the missile, how does it track behind it?

The missile's micro processor is linked to the satelite which transfers accumulated data into the missile's tracking system, not only from jsut the plane it was fired from but from all the planes in the vacinity and from the ground radar and from everyone, but that information before being sent to the missile's computer is accumulated into a single model. Thats how the tracking works.

Also, they way you described how it is launched would make it impossible to flip like you said, you also have the chance of hitting your own missile.

Why exactly is that true. The missile drops, and it flips, nothing out of the ordinary about it, the speed will be slow, the thruster is a vector thruster. Where is the problem?



You'd be better of just making a manuverable missile that travle a mach 4-5 maybe even 6. But any higher and you wont get much manuverability. Scramjet work best for long range missiles not short range.

Who said its a short range missile? I'll make a short range missile but that will be later.

Forget all forms of propultion and fuels wich are known to date meaning the 21 centuary.
Anti matter and stella propultion is the 22nd centuary of propultion is in fact technology that has been around for the later decade and more. During the last space war just on the outers skirts of our high orbital sattelites a nation has succeded in dominating the earth power houses. Bases which have been established on the moon for around 15 years or so played the major role in a united front agains the so called allies or ufo sightings. This my friends is something you all should sit back in your chairs and take a closer look at. The UFO's were not some green men from mars or strange creatures, but DNA human beings which are not from any western country, this type of information is easily accessible but hidden among the many useless information wich surfs the net thus giving it the ultimate in stealth ability to freely be mailed and recieved on various forums..

HAVE A NICE DAY

EL

Ah...that was random.

I don't know dude, what is it for? I got my own system of sorts, VRPB, its the one i use on all of my SUBS equipment including the BU-1. Its basically a virtual represenation of all things that go on the battelfield, what it does is let any unit know what any other unit is doing. So for example your fighters radar doesn't pick up the enemy plane, however the ground radar does, the ground radar's data is transfered to HQs that accumulate all the information from the battelfield in a single model and send it to you, so you can see the enemy plane and can lock on it even if your own aircraft's sensors don't pick it up, the info from your sensors is also transfered from HQs and so on.

It won't interfere with your system. Instead the pilot puts on a virtual reality helmet that projects a very high-definition environment around the pilot that is identical to the one outside. The helmet allows the pilot to feel like he's flying not flying an aircraft. He can see around, top & bottom, and 360 degrees in every possible direction. It stretches out for 10 km. This allows him to see far ahead of himself then in normal vision. Really the point of the system is to give the pilot improved visual awarness of his entire world.

The system works by having various sensors (camera's, radar, lidar input) and changes it into the environment. Instead of having to look at different screens, all the data is given to him in one output that's easy for him to understand.

I think I expressed it in a way that is logical but understandable enough.

No, no not really, its not the part about it being logical, its the part about it being confusing in that you don't make your point clear. But okay.

El

You dont want a mach 12 missile.

FIrstly, you cannot attain such speeds using a RAMjet, you'd have to use a SCRAMjet which makes the thing expensive. Now this isnt a major problem but worth mentioning. The main problem is that at normal combat altitudes this missile will just melt, the wings will snap off and you can forget about things such as "turning". In short although you'll outrun the enemy plane for sure, you wont be able to target him if he just pulls up a little and changes direction.

What you want is something that's faster than the plane, but not that fast per se. For example, claiming that you have a plane which can hit mach 5 at normal combat altitudes, let alone survive, is basically godmodding so let's take mach 5. That's all you actually need. You can outrun any plane in the sky by a factor of 1 to 4 machs (depending on who you're fighting) so they cant outrun you.

A mach 5 missile is more manueverable, doesnt melt, is cheaper, doesnt need to carry as much fuel, is lighter and is smaller. There is no *advantage* in having a missile which travels at mach 12, unless of course you're developing a plane specifically designed to shoot down hypersoars, but something tells me you arent.

You dont want a mach 12 missile.

FIrstly, you cannot attain such speeds using a RAMjet, you'd have to use a SCRAMjet which makes the thing expensive.

I am using SRAMjet, thats what it says in the write up.

As for the rest of your suggestions, this was my first try at making a missile, the cherry in this one is not its speed, but its ability to get the guy who is flying behind your plane. I now think that two stage thing is too complecated i got a better idea i'll work on, compressed air, and yeah i'll make the next one run at mach 5-6.

There is such thing as a rotatable pylon.

It won't interfere with your system. Instead the pilot puts on a virtual reality helmet that projects a very high-definition environment around the pilot that is identical to the one outside. The helmet allows the pilot to feel like he's flying not flying an aircraft. He can see around, top & bottom, and 360 degrees in every possible direction. It stretches out for 10 km. This allows him to see far ahead of himself then in normal vision. Really the point of the system is to give the pilot improved visual awarness of his entire world.

The system works by having various sensors (camera's, radar, lidar input) and changes it into the environment. Instead of having to look at different screens, all the data is given to him in one output that's easy for him to understand.

Thats kind of like what VRPB is doing but with a helmet, i don't see how that is functional, the pilot is also supposed to look at his aircraft displays, however i have an idea of maybe integrating our systems. Actually i think we can take this the next step, by using neural interface we can allow the pilot wearing a helmet and using this combined system mark his targets with his mind. I'll work on integrating both systems, instead of just viewing output from his own plane's sensors he will be able to view output of all the sensors his friendly units have that would increase the 10 kilometer range by a wide margin, this is basically what VRPB does, however i never thought of putting it in a virtual reality helmet, thanks for that.

There is such thing as a rotatable pylon.

Excuse my english whats a pylon?

I am using SRAMjet, thats what it says in the write up.
Ah sorry, I misread then.

As for the rest of your suggestions, this was my first try at making a missile, the cherry in this one is not its speed, but its ability to get the guy who is flying behind your plane. I now think that two stage thing is too complecated i got a better idea i'll work on, compressed air, and yeah i'll make the next one run at mach 5-6.
No problem. Everyone starts somewhat, I just think that the speed is a bit excessive, and in being so is actually detrimental to the missile's performance in its intended role.

Basically the the thing that the missile attaches to that attaches it to the wing. Russians have been useing them for a while now.

There is such thing as a rotatable pylon.
I'd figure a rotating pylon/hardpoint is difficult to integrate and will take up more space, which means that you'll sacrifice fuel and payload in exchange for backward-firing capabilities. Especially since it rotates (which will require more space on a wing per hardpoint).

I'd figure a rotating pylon/hardpoint is difficult to integrate and will take up more space, which means that you'll sacrifice fuel and payload in exchange for backward-firing capabilities.

Not really. The russians have found nothing wrong with using them.

Thats kind of like what VRPB is doing but with a helmet, i don't see how that is functional, the pilot is also supposed to look at his aircraft displays, however i have an idea of maybe integrating our systems. Actually i think we can take this the next step, by using neural interface we can allow the pilot wearing a helmet and using this combined system mark his targets with his mind. I'll work on integrating both systems, instead of just viewing output from his own plane's sensors he will be able to view output of all the sensors his friendly units have that would increase the 10 kilometer range by a wide margin, this is basically what VRPB does, however i never thought of putting it in a virtual reality helmet, thanks for that.

All in input from your systems would be delivered right to him in the helmet. The system would use the information to add more detail and stuff to the environment and pop-ups messages will tell him according stuff. Also a min-radar picture will be at the top of his right side of his view. This will help him understand any incoming dangers.

I wouldn't use neural interface. First of all, many NSers don't consider that MT and will ignore you in their RPs. I tried this system on the F-76 but their is so much backlash against it, it isn't worth the use. I just implented an advanced voice command system that you could use in conjunction with controls.

Not really. The russians have found nothing wrong with using them.
Naturally there will be disadvantages to such thing. Regardless of whether the Russians use them or not (I still favour reliable information over "it's too good to be true", not saying that the Russians are stating the non-existant), something such as a rotating hardpoint on the aircraft will take up extra space. This naturally and logically translates to more space required, which naturally, impacts the fuel supply, the payload/armament stores and capacity, and possibly the flight characteristics of the aircraft itself as well.

Naturally there will be disadvantages to such thing. Regardless of whether the Russians use them or not (I still favour reliable information over "it's too good to be true", not saying that the Russians are stating the non-existant), something such as a rotating hardpoint on the aircraft will take up extra space. This naturally and logically translates to more space required, which naturally, impacts the fuel supply, the payload/armament stores and capacity, and possibly the flight characteristics of the aircraft itself as well.

I don't imagine any jets firing at supersonic speeds with that kind of system without having serious flight problems.

I guess that a missle could just simple freefall from the aircraft for a split second while it's control surfaces turn it 180 degrees. Or have it go at low initial speeds and use thrust vectoring to turn around.

It is indeed possible, just that it will have disadvantages along it, especially considering a pylon/hardpoint is complex enough. Further, firing a missile backwards, while may be tactically advantageous in some situations, wouldn't be as advantageous in other situations since the aircraft is essentially going /against/ the missile's direction (and since the kinetic energy and range of an AAM also relies on the speed of the missile-launching aircraft).

All in input from your systems would be delivered right to him in the helmet. The system would use the information to add more detail and stuff to the environment and pop-ups messages will tell him according stuff. Also a min-radar picture will be at the top of his right side of his view. This will help him understand any incoming dangers.

Don't worry i got this covered.

I wouldn't use neural interface. First of all, many NSers don't consider that MT and will ignore you in their RPs. I tried this system on the F-76 but their is so much backlash against it, it isn't worth the use. I just implented an advanced voice command system that you could use in conjunction with controls.

Well neural interface is possible today so i really don't see what basis the critics might have exept the size of computers which are getting smaller and smaller and there is a fat chance that by 2010 they will get small enough to be used on a jet fighter, but i'll think on that some more.

It is indeed possible, just that it will have disadvantages along it, especially considering a pylon/hardpoint is complex enough. Further, firing a missile backwards, while may be tactically advantageous in some situations, wouldn't be as advantageous in other situations since the aircraft is essentially going /against/ the missile's direction (and since the kinetic energy and range of an AAM also relies on the speed of the missile-launching aircraft).

Alright about the missile thing. What i am gonna do is this. The thing is gonna drop from aircraft wing. Where will be a compressed air pocket near the tip of the missile, and a small outlet. If the enemy is behind your plane, the outlet will open, all the compressed air escapinng all at once creating pressure and the missile will rotate. Once its at the right angle towards the enemy plane the thruster is engaged and it is guided happily into its target at the speed of Mach 5.

It is indeed possible, just that it will have disadvantages along it, especially considering a pylon/hardpoint is complex enough. Further, firing a missile backwards, while may be tactically advantageous in some situations, wouldn't be as advantageous in other situations since the aircraft is essentially going /against/ the missile's direction (and since the kinetic energy and range of an AAM also relies on the speed of the missile-launching aircraft).

You would have to slow down in order not to tear off the pylon hardpoint. I might be wrong though as I really don't know much about that.