NationStates Jolt Archive

The unstoppable Kusari Navy is being built now.

OOC: Have you read the stickies? I suggest you do so. It'll make your RPs a lot better, and it'll make people more willing to RP with you.

The Euroslavia Series of Helpful Hints (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408855)

International Incidents Consolidation Sticky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=437653)

Please, read these carefully and take them seriously, and you will find that your NS experience will be a lot more enjoyable.

On that note, a bit of constructive criticism I have for your post.

First, unless you go into more detail on your statement, and have realistic statements about your navy's vessels, no one is going to take it seriously. Remember, you are a small, new nation compared to some countries around here that have billions of people, so don't come out expecting to be able to defeat everyone you go up against. Bide your time, increase your strength and defense budget (you can get information on your budget here (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=Invanz)), and look at some of the storefronts on the forums to buy equipment. The Leafanistani Integrated Storefront (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433522) is a good one.

Secondly, one-line posts like this typically aren't appreciated. The longer and more detailed your posts in an RP, the more positive the response you receive. Be descriptive; remember, you're telling a story.

Problem,
1. You are a new nation and cannot build a huge navy now.
2. No NS navy is unstoppable.
3. There are far more powerful NS nations out there then your small nation.
4. Naval ships are at a disadvantage agianst aircraft.
5. Do not tempt the far older nations with populations in the billions to attack you and conquer your small new country.

Oh my!

OOC: C'mon, guys, give him a break. I think he could have some potential. Be friendly in your advice, please. Newbs who are willing to learn (newbs in general, actually) are rare these days; let's not turn this into another flamefest like a bunch of the other n00b-threads around here.

Beware the lock of doom, people.

He just doesn't have the budget to run and maintain any resonably sized navy. (Hell... I don't either.)

Doesn't mean he can't have plans for the future, though.

Here's an example (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9104248&postcount=1) of a new nation putting out an organisation of its military.

I wrote it primarily because I'm trying to use that nation as an alternative to my main NS country, but also to give an idea of the kinds of things new countries usually look for.

OOC: C'mon, guys, give him a break. I think he could have some potential. Be friendly in your advice, please. Newbs who are willing to learn (newbs in general, actually) are rare these days; let's not turn this into another flamefest like a bunch of the other n00b-threads around here.

I agree. But about the unstoppable word, I don't know.

I agree. But about the unstoppable word, I don't know.

OOC: Eh. He'll learn eventually.

OOC: Eh. He'll learn eventually.

OOC: True. Very very true.

Okay, according to nseconomy.thirdgeek.com (the most widely accepted calculator used on these boards), you have a defense budget of 2,155,810,318.20 USD. Considering the fact that most warships large enough to deploy out of your coastal waters cost in excess of 150,000,000, and that you need support vessels such as oilers, tugs, and supply ships, you ought be able to field a navy consisting of a few (2-3) old SSKs, under 10 patrol vessels, and 2-3 destroyers / frigates while maintaining a sizeable air force and army. If you put all your money into a fleet, you would only be able to field a couple more destroyers and SSKs, and one or two light carriers or light cruisers. Either way, your 'unstoppable' fleet will be overwhelmed by most other navies on the high seas today - including mine, which is currently under a very strict arms-limitation treaty.

My suggestion: deploy a few SSKs and patrol vessels, maybe a frigate or two, and focus on an army and air defense. Use mines if you want to better defend you coast, and don't attack anyone for a few (RL) weeks at least.

Thanks for the advice.

You're welcome. In my current situation, I've had to make the same decisions you need to, but for different reasons (a forced disarmiament mainly). I'm glad to lend a helping hand, and if you'd like, I could help show you the ropes to budgeting your military expendatures and finding the best equipment for your money.

OOC: Like I mentioned in my first post up above, the Leafanistani Integrated Storefront (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433522) is a great all-around storefront, with land, air, and naval units, as well as important infrastructure elements, like army, air, and naval bases, ammunition factories, even entire towns. Plus, it's all relatively cheap.

Also, Invanz, if you're looking for vessels to patrol your own waters, you may want to consider the following two vessels, both of which can be found and bought at the Imperial Praetonian Shipyards (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=422657). Praetonian vessels are expensive, but of the highest quality. In my opinion, they are some of the best vessels sailing the NS seas.



Orion Class River Monitor (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/Praetonia/OrionClassRiverMonitor.gif)

Length: 122m
Beam: 21m
Draught: 3.82m
Crew:: 168 Naval; 32 Marines
Displacement: 5,824 tonnes
Speed:: 17knts (cruise); 26knts (max)
Range: 3,500nm at 15knts
Armament:
18x 6"/45 ETC Naval Cannon (port and starboard broadsides in armoured mounts);
4x 76mm/74 Naval Autocannon (for and after in dual turrets);
6x 12.7mm Machineguns (along superstructure in dual turrets);
2x 16 (8x2) cell Ballista VLS (forecastle / bow; General load: SAM; 64 missiles);
2x Testudo CIWS (including gun, light rockets and countermeasure suite)
Armour: Standard IPO Armour Scheme (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/Praetonia/TigerAmourScheme.gif)
350mm (armoured belt);
300mm (general hull);
400mm (reactors and magazines)
Air Search Radar: IPO-82 F ‘MiniCausa’ Active / Passive Phased Array
Surface Search Radar: IPO-82 G ‘MiniCausa’ Active / Passive Phased Array
Fire Control Radar: IPO-83 ‘Simplex’ Phased Array
Sonar: [None]
Propulsion: Two IPO-05 Combined Gas and Diesel (CODLAG), attached to one high-pressure waterjet
Running Costs: $16,000,000 per year

The Orion Class River Monitor was designed to maximise firepower that could be brought to bear against any potential invaders who might seek to take advantage of or cross Praetonian rivers. The vessel is not intended for ship to ship combat, and has its entire main armament in a broadside arrangement in order to ensure as many guns as possible can be fitted into as small a space as possible.

The ship is not seaworthy, and is certainly not intended to be used in the place of frigates or missile boats, but with a healthy complement of SAMs and an impressive complement of guns the Orion is capable of inflicting a deadly blow against any enemy that may seek to cross a river defended by one. A full broadside of 9x 6" guns is enough to make most infantry break and run.

Cost: $320m

Estuary Class Corvette

Length: 91m
Beam: 13m
Draught: 4.1m
Crew:: 122 Naval; 16 Marines
Displacement: 2,224 tonnes
Speed:: 22knts (cruise); 28knts (max)
Range: 2,200nm at 15knts
Armament:
1x 6"/45 ETC Naval Cannon (forecastle in a single turret);
8x Ballista-C Canisters (forecastle; General load: SSM; 8 missiles);
1x 16 (4x4) cell Ballista-L Short VLS (amidships; General load: SAM; 16 missiles);
6x 21" Torpedo Tubes (for; port / starboard; 24 weapons)
2x Testudo CIWS (including gun, light rockets and countermeasure suite)
Aviation: Space for storing and maintaining a single helicopter.
Armour: Standard IPO Armour Scheme (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/Praetonia/TigerAmourScheme.gif)
35mm (armoured belt);
25mm (general hull);
40mm (reactors and magazines)
Air Search Radar: IPO-82 F ‘MiniCausa’ Active / Passive Phased Array
Surface Search Radar: IPO-82 G ‘MiniCausa’ Active / Passive Phased Array
Fire Control Radar: IPO-83 ‘Simplex’ Phased Array
Sonar: GO-84 'Polax' Bow Mounted and Towed Active / Passive Array Arrays
Propulsion: Two IPO-05 Combined Gas and Diesel (CODLAG), attached to one high-pressure waterjet
Running Costs: $13,000,000 per year

The Estuary Class Corvette is designed to provide a pwoerful anti air, anti-surface and anti-submarine punch in a small, cheap package. The vessel is powerful in itself, but lacks the range for over-seas deployments and so is best suited to patrol and anti-piracy operations.

The vessel is more than a match for anything it is likely to encounter in peace time, and is capable of making a mess of any potential invasion fleet with long-range anti-ship missiles and a powerful naval gun. The vessel is a relatively fast ship, can carry a helicopter and is conventionally powered.

Cost: $260m

Yeah, what he said up there ^ ...

That would mean he'd be fielding better patrol vessels than me - but would only have 1-8 of them, far too few for a large oastline. I'd reccomend something like the French D’Estienne D’Orves Class Patrol Corvette - it's large enough to fill the role of a Frigate in a pinch, and still effective for a lighter patrol boat's duties - plus it's effective for convoy escort. I have no idea how much it would cost though, however I would guess it to be around 100m USD.

That would mean he'd be fielding better patrol vessels than me - but would only have 1-8 of them, far too few for a large oastline. I'd reccomend something like the French D’Estienne D’Orves Class Patrol Corvette - it's large enough to fill the role of a Frigate in a pinch, and still effective for a lighter patrol boat's duties - plus it's effective for convoy escort. I have no idea how much it would cost though, however I would guess it to be around 100m USD.

OOC: True. The only drawback of Prae's vessels is price. Oh well. Here are four much cheaper alternatives from my buddy Leafanistan's storefront.

South Sea-class Frigate

Designed as a low-cost multi-role frigate, the South Sea-class features a small aircraft compliment of either one VSTOL Sea Harrier, or 2 medium (AEW,ASW) Merlin Helicoptors

Powerplant: Two Sung Industries M-2500 gas turbine engines; 1 shaft,
41,000 shaft horsepower total.
Displacement: (standard load) 2,180 tons; (full load) 2,250 tons;
Dimensions: Length 112m; Beam 12.4m, Draft 4.3m
Speed: Maximum 30 knots; Cruising 20 knots
Range: 5,000 miles @ 20 knots
Crew: 168 (30 officers)
Weapons: Dual 100mm gun, 8 cell Exocet missile launcher, 6 Tomahawk missile launchers in 2 3-cell boxes, one facing starboard, another facing port, 2 Depth Charge racks, 6 Hybrid microwave LASER + 25mm Gatling Cannon CIWS sytems
Aircraft Compliment (optional): 1 VSTOL Sea Harrier or 2 Merlin Helicoptors

$20 million US; with aircraft is $25 million US

Skate-class frigate

This is a multirole frigate with anti-air, ship, and submarine capabilities and makes a great fleet escort if you don't know what your up against.

Power Plant: Two Sung Industries M-2500 gas turbine engines; 1 shaft,
41,000 shaft horsepower total.
Length: 445 feet (133.5 meters); 453 feet (135.9 meters) with LAMPS
III modification.
Beam: 45 feet (13.5 meters)
Displacement: 4,100 tons (4,165.80 metric tons) full load
Speed: 32 knots
6 Exocet missiles mounted in 6 pods
2 Depth Charge (400 lb) mortars at rear of frigate (100 variable depth
charges included)
4 Hybrid LASER CIWS, a tactical microwave LASER disables the missile's electronics and then the 25 mm Autocannons finish it off
6 .50 cal Browning MGs

$25 million US

Academy-class Patrol Boat

Intended for costal patrol, or brown-water action, the Academy-class is leaving active service as the Clip-class replaces it. However due to lax gun-laws many privateers own Academy-classes and have signed up for the CDF with them. *sigh*

Displacement: 750 tons
Armour: Limited, 70mm Boronated Steel in command area
Dimensions: Length 73m; Beam 9.6m
Speed: Maximum 27 kts; cruising 20 kts
Range: 2200nm @ 20kts
Weapons: 2 278mm torpedo tubes, 1 dual-barreled 30mm Autocannon or 1 73mm Cannon, 4 12.7mm MGs on the sides.

$12 million each

Dietz-class Rapid Attack Hydrofoil

Naval strategists noted a distinct lack of high speed capability in the Navies and Coastal Guards of the world. Drug runners in specialized high-speed motorboats easily outran cutters, corvettes, frigates, even destroyers. However, when the Dietz-class was introduced, smuggling via waterways was significantly reduced.

Powered by 2 Katana Corp. Morningstar 1800 horsepower diesels the Dietz-class can cruise at a leisurely 15 knots. A large gas turbine engine powers the craft when foilborne, driving it to 50+ knots. Surprisingly well armed, the Dietz-class can even sink much larger ships with its complement of Exocet missiles.

Displacement: 275 tons
Dimensions: Length 48.6 m
Speed: 15 kts (waterborne); 50+ kts (foilborne)
Range: 3700 nm at cruising speed
Crew: 25
Weapons: 1 starboard, 1 port sealed box Exocet launchers (14 missiles carried), [ 1 90mm gun or 1 30mm Autocannon or quad .50 cal AA mount ], 1 Hybrid LASER and 25mm Autocannon CIWS system, 4 Dual .50 cal MG mounts

$17.5 million

Very nice. I'd say he should go for a couple of those, maybe a ten 12m USD ones and one or two 25m USDs.

I just bought a batch of 100 Dietz-class hydrofoils, actually. I'd personally suggest a mix of Academy-class patrol boats for Coast Guard, Dietz-class hydrofoils for high-speed capability (the thing packs quite a punch, too, for its small size), and a few South Sea-class frigates. Whether or not you go for aircraft is up to you, Invanz.

I just bought a batch of 100 Dietz-class hydrofoils, actually. I'd personally suggest a mix of Academy-class patrol boats for Coast Guard, Dietz-class hydrofoils for high-speed capability (the thing packs quite a punch, too, for its small size), and a few South Sea-class frigates. Whether or not you go for aircraft is up to you, Invanz.

I'll take your word for it, seeing as I've never used a hydrofoil before. In terms of aircraft, though, I've got a nice, though not exactly ground breaking aircraft I use for coastal patrol. It could be useful in still maintaining a coastal air patrol while avoiding the obvious cost of a carrier. If you want, you can purchase them here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9441564#post9441564

Official Designation: L-1a / L-1b
Common Name: Duša (Spirit)

Country of Origin: Novikov
Builder: Novikoian National Defense Agency (NCOA)

Role: Naval Patrol (L-1a) / Carrier Aircraft (L-1b)

Crew: One

Length: 14.0 meters
Span: 9.5 meters
Height: 3.9 meters

Engine: Volvo Flygmotor RM 6C, 7,900 kp thrust w/ afterburner
Range: 1,200 km (L-1b) / 1,680 km w/ 1,000 kg Droptank (L-1a)
Endurance: 1h20 (L-1b) / 1h52 w/ 1,000 kg Droptank (L-1a)
Maximum Speed: 1.47 Mach @ 10,200 meters / 1.02 Mach @ Sea Level
Cruise Speed: 0.74 Mach
Ceiling: 16,700 meters

Weight: 13,200 kg (L-1b) / 14,300 k (L-1a)
In-Flight Refueling: No
Internal Fuel: 2,760 kg (L-1b) / 2,900 kg (L-1a)
External Fuel: None (L-1b) / 400 kg or 1,000 kg Droptanks (L-1a)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: ~17,300 kg (L-1b) / 19,400 kg (L-1a)
Payload: 1,340 kg (L-1b) / 2,200 kg (L-1a)

Hardpoints: 3 (L-1b) / 5 (L-1a)
Armament: One 23mm Cannon, Up to two Exocet Anti-Shipping Cruise Missiles, Up to five Sidewinder or Sparrow Air-to-Air Missiles, Up to 1,200 kg of ‘Dumb’ Weapons
Sensors: Cyrano IVM radar, FLIR, RWR, Standard Bombsight

Production Cost: 48.613 million Novikovian Euros (~20.16 million USD)
Export Cost: 51.603 million Novikovian Euro (21.4 million USD)
Production Rights: Not For Sale

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a129/GenericName120/Dusha.jpg

OOC: Actually, I'm afraid that Leafanistan's vessels are often of extremely poor design and quality. Almost all of them are phenominally underpriced (often only 5-10% of what they should be), and either have a poor mix of equipment (weapons, aircraft, etc), too much equipment, or far too little. The result is that I cannot recommend going there, especially for naval vessels.
I really sense a lack of research in the prices. You won't find many other places selling F-15s (about $40-45 million today) for half the price of an A-10 (about $10-15 million today).

You won't find many other places selling F-15s (about $40-45 million today) for half the price of an A-10 (about $10-15 million today).

In Leafanistan's defense, I think he's much more PMT than MT which would make the F-15 less expensive and somewhat obsolete in his nation. But I could be wrong there.

If you think that a frigate can cost at a mere tens of millions without just being a hulk of rusting metal, then one can gladly prove that you are wrong.

If you think that a frigate can cost at a mere tens of millions without just being a hulk of rusting metal, then one can gladly prove that you are wrong.

Well, either way, let's not hijack this thread any more than we already have. If you want to argue over proces, go ahead and do so in private.

Invanz,welcome to nation states,man (are you a dude or are you a girl?)....and i would like to offer you:



15 small Elco torpedo boats...i know they are old but they are affective when used properly...we have also upgraded it with radar and sonar and my nation still uses and builds them for coast guard,river patrol and ship security while the ship is docked.

http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ptboat8lp.png


The Elco boats were the largest in size of the three types of PT boats built for US Navy use during World War II. Wooden-hulled, 80 feet (24 m) long with a 20 ft 8 in. (6.3 m) beam, the Elco PT boats had three 12-cylinder Packard gasoline fueled engines generating a total of 4,500 hp (3,400 kW) for a designed speed of 41 knots (76 km/h). With accommodations for 3 officers and 14 men, the crew varied from 12 to 14. Its full-load displacement was 56 tons.

Early Elco boats had two 20 mm Oerlikon guns, four .50-caliber (~12.7 mm) machine guns, and two or four 21 inch (533 mm) torpedo tubes. Some of them carried depth charges or mine racks. Later boats mounted one 40 mm Bofors gun and four torpedo launching racks. Some PTs later received rocket launchers.

In addition, many boats received ad hoc refits at advanced bases, mounting such light guns as Army Air Forces 37 mm aircraft guns and even captured Japanese 23 mm guns. The most famous example was Kennedy's PT-109 which was equipped with a 37 mm cannon that the crew had commandeered.

Problem,
4. Naval ships are at a disadvantage agianst aircraft.

That's the biggest bullshit I've ever heard. Naval ships are NOT at a disadvantage against aircraft. please tell me how your 'nimitz' or whatever, is going to penetrate my outer AAW picket, my inner AAW picket, my close in AAW picket, and finally my CIWS.
when my battlefleet is something like seventy ships strong, with some of the arsenal ships holding over 2000 missiles (in contrast to the some 1100 your aircraft can fire)
Naval ships are NOT at a disadvantage. PLEASE do not come up with that crap ever again.
kthxbai

I have studied a bit about ships espcially during the World War 2 era and i have noticed a stronged amount of evidence a ship like a battle ship can be sunk by a group of bomber or torpedo planes unless defended by other aircraft.

WW2 and modern are very different

Yeah, because in WWII nearly *every* major battleship sinking by aircraft was because THE BATTLESHIP HAD NO AIRCOVER, AND IT HAD NO ANTI AIR. Nowadays in NS we've got huge battlefleets with missiles and CIWS and a huge anti air picket.
You simply cannot compare WWII naval battles with modern or NS naval battles.

Yeah, because in WWII nearly *every* major battleship sinking by aircraft was because THE BATTLESHIP HAD NO AIRCOVER, AND IT HAD NO ANTI AIR. Nowadays in NS we've got huge battlefleets with missiles and CIWS and a huge anti air picket.
You simply cannot compare WWII naval battles with modern or NS naval battles.



well they had anti-air GUNS...not missiles...isthat what you mean?

I was using it as an example if there was a war nowaday and one side had a much smaller fleet, but had overwhelming air powe they ahve a good chance of winning.

what I meant Morvonia, was that flak guns are somewhat..inefficient against anything going faster than 200mph.

And no, that's still a lie scandavians.
You have 2000 aircraft, I have five arsenal ships, fifty destroyers, five battleships, and ten light cruisers.
Five arsenal ships = 5,000 missiles. (more or less)
Fifty destroyers= 5,000 missiles (more or less)
five battleships = 2,500 missiles (more or less)
ten light cruisers = 5,000 missiles, more or less.

now considering 2000 attack aircraft is a *huge* amount to use on a battlefleet that size.
You've got each aircraft with say, four anti shipping missiles. 2000x4= 8,000. Clearly you can see here, i've enough missiles to waste your missiles 1v1, and then enough to waste nearly all your aircraft. even if I do lose a few of my ships, you've lost a sincere chunk of your airforce.
On one battlefleet, taking into account 100% accuracy. you can nerf that amount to countermeasures, CIWS, etc etc.

We have varying opinions about the matter I see that this will be a fruitless argument so let us put it to peace as each of us can bring up valid arguments for a long period of time.

Incorrect, you are wrong, I am right. unfortunately that sounds arrogant but it is correct. Then remember that that battlegroup should have aircraft carriers, an even bigger threat to your force.

hes right you know, aircraft are very dangerus to ships, nomater how good your weapons are

Er..
Any target that can hit in range of your vessel is dangerous. Aircraft are not "very dangerus" as you liked to spell it to a force that can stop them, that is, any capable naval force.

Er..
Any target that can hit in range of your vessel is dangerous. Aircraft are not "very dangerus" as you liked to spell it to a force that can stop them, that is, any capable naval force.

Trust Hogsweat on this, naval forces can decimate airplaces from miles and miles away if they are 'decent'. Now for when the missiles get close range, ships will have lots of anti-missile defenses that will really reduce anything but a LARGE amount of missiles to nothing.