NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: This is it! The media event of the summer! ;)

The Republic of Sergio the First would like to urge all law-abbiding and freedom- loving nations to join us in assuring that what is rapidly becoming known in legal fields as the case of "Allemande vs Paul Kaufman" doesn´t become a travesti of justice. If, as it seems, the former President of Torontia comes face to face with the Allemande´s criminal justice sistem, we would propose the following:
- that all nations demand to have legal observers present at the location of the trial;
- that all nations demand unrestricted acess of the media to the Mr. Kaufman´s trial;
- that a international assembly of criminal lawyers be formed to take up the defense of Mr. Kaufman.

The Attorney-General, Sergio Landolt CostaIn anticipation of the huge number of people who would want to attend the trial, court officials set up closed-circuit TV links to several auditoriums around the capitol. The courtroom was reserved for witnesses, legal staff, camera crews, and security, which was incredibly tight.

While secret trials are not allowed under Allemander law, neither do court officials permit the media to run wild. There were areas that were reserved for the press, designated podiums with microphones, and briefing centres galore. The judges' chambers were off limits, and the press were forbidden from speaking to prospective jurors, to avoid jury tampering. Witnesses were also held in seclusion, where they could only be visited by court staff and legal counsel for both sides.

In spite of these (few) restrictions, it was a field day for the press, which faces few if any effective restrictions on its day-to-day operations in Allemande. This was a democratic republic that took "Freedom of the Press" very seriously.

While some called for an international panel of criminal lawyers to represent Paul Kaufman, the court made it patently clear that it would be Mr. Kaufman's right and responsibility to choose his own counsel; the court would only intervene if he did not or could not do so.

In Allemander trials, there is little room for the kinds of dramatic courtroom scenes that fans of vintage T.V.'s Mary Payson had come to love. The rules of discovery were rigid, permitting no "surprise witnesses", and courtroom manners were just as tough. Antics of any kind would get you tossed out of court in a heartbeat.

Still, there were questions and decisions to be argued over by the press:
Would Mr. Kaufman try to represent himself, or would he hire a team of world-class attorneys. He had a huge amount of money, although for some reason he had lost the ability to access quite a bit of it. Would the Federal prosecutors face a legal "Dream Team"?


Would he choose a jury trial, or waive his right to one and let the matter be heard by a tribunal of judges? Arguments raged either way about this.


Would he claim that media exposure had made seating an unbiased jury impossible? In the past, Allemander judges had been unsympathetic to such claims, but these were exceptional circumstances. If he wanted a jury and none could be found, would he walk?


Could the prosecution leap the double hurdle of proving that Kaufman's actions represented conspiracy to commit murder and that they were illegal under Torontian law? It was expected that Paul Kaufman would assert that:



The Allemanders slain were either killed because they provoked or attacked the Republican Guard, or were killed by accident ("in the crossfire"), and


That as a Head of State, Kaufman had the power to do as he pleased, and as such no action he may have taken that day could be anything but completely legal.


Would the prosecutor's evidence that Republican Guardsmen went from room to room shooting cowering students hold up under attack, or could Kaufman prove his claim that this evidence was "manufactured" by his enemies.


If convicted, what would be Kaufman's punishment? Allemande had no Federal death penalty and had done away with all its prisons years ago. Would Kaufman walk even if convicted?!?One thing was absolutely certain.

It was going to be quite a show.

OOC: We'll keep this quick and save the heavy-duty RP for the actual trial.

The United States of Allemande has formally charged Paul Kaufman with 31 counts of conspiracy to commit murder in ordering the July 29th, 2005 assault on the campus of Seattle City University by the Torontian Republican Guard.

In the filings, prosecutors claim that:
Paul Kaufman ordered the Republican Guard to "shoot all students inside the University Compound (sic?)" and to "spare no one inside the university". Since this meant that persons who had no connection whatsoever to the protests of that afternoon would be killed as well, it could not be construed as a proper response to the situation. Rather, it represented an order to perpetrate a massacre upon the students, faculty, and staff of the university.


Paul Kaufman had no legal authority to issue such an order that afternoon. Even though he was a de facto dictator, the laws of the Republic of Torontia in force on July 29th, 2005 did not permit such a mass extra-judicial killing in the absence of anything like legal due process.
Kaufman and his attorneys have yet to respond to these charges.

OOC: Remember, this is a preliminary hearing; the defendant is expected only to state his case in the most basic form possible. The court will then consider the two positions and decide in the facts and the law justify a trial.

It is now Kaufman's turn to respond.

BIG FAT HINT

The judges hate ranting and grandstanding. You have been warned

The Republic of McKagan would like permission to dock the destroyer RMV Cobalt at the nearest port to the trial. While, if you allow, the normal crew of the vessel will use this time for shoreleave, a few members of the command staff will be representing McKagan in this trial.

We also have a few charges we would like to add which talk about this mans desire to purchase illegal nuclear and chemical weapons from our nation. If you approve of this plan we will dock and move our representatives to the trail area.

The Copiosa Scotia Department of Justice has filed an amicus curiae brief asserting that the government of Leafanistan violated their promises of asylum for the defendant by extraditing him to Allemande.

OOC: You could have a few members of different nations to be jury. These could then judge the verdict.

The People's Republic of New Sans would just like to enquire in a similar amount of effort will be put into finding the missing assets taken by Mr. Kaufman and when the nation of Torontia can expect all of that money to be returned to them?

Donald Giert, Foreign Minister.
The People's Republic of New Sans.

OOC: This is my first post considering if I'm new. So please try to forgive me if I sound naive but in thie case, I'm a little bit confused. If Kaufman attacked Torontian (Spelling), then why does allenade (sorry if I'm getting the names, it's hard for me to switch back and forth to posts) prosecuting him?

Allenade (OOC: Spelling?) we here at the democratic states of fernetti government are willing to send some of our legal and justice citizens over to help out with the trial and be on the jury. We would like to ask what duty we would serve there however?, because we would like to help.

We would like to send Captain Dr.Fianos Corbalas of the 7th medical unit and a registered mental evaluator,to be on the jury.


Since we had nothing to do with the university incident,we have no hate to the defendant and thusly can offer a un-biassed jugement.


bump

The Lone Alliance will be sending people to this trial, as it is our actions that led to Paul Kaufman's exile and capture. We will also aid in any security needed, as we fear that Paul Kaufman may use his money to hire soldiers to help him escape.

25 People 22 Military 3 Delagates
Number Unit Weapon
2 Snipers DR-9
15 Fast Response team H&K UMP, USAS-12 Automatic Shotgun
2 Anti Tank RPG-16
3 Heavy Rifle AK-104s

We will need aid in AA defense.
Even if we are barred from entering we will keep our force as near as possible to stop any sudden escape.

It is very important for us to be there, it was our courage to stand up to Paul Kaufman's forces we were the only ones to take fire from his forces. We alone faced him, it is critical that we be included.

bump

OOC: This is my first post considering if I'm new. So please try to forgive me if I sound naive but in thie case, I'm a little bit confused. If Kaufman attacked Torontian (Spelling), then why does allenade (sorry if I'm getting the names, it's hard for me to switch back and forth to posts) prosecuting him?

Allenade (OOC: Spelling?) we here at the democratic states of fernetti government are willing to send some of our legal and justice citizens over to help out with the trial and be on the jury. We would like to ask what duty we would serve there however?, because we would like to help.

OOC: Kaufman was a facist dictator of Torontia, and disallowed left wing politics. The current President of Torontia, lead a failed communist rebellion. Allemande was on the side of Norton. Kaufman used WMDs on his own city, were the rebels were postioned, killing alot of people. He's also made a lot threates to other nations, especially me.

(OOC)

Forget listening to that loopy communist!

Kaufman was a democratically elected leader who worked day in and day out to build Torontia into a safe, secure and wealthy nation.

Being the deranged stupid evil beings that they are, the communists hated Kaufman for his hard work and his total dedication to global freedom and democracy, so they staged a terrorist uprising and killed nearly half a million people.

Kaufman never killed innocents, only terrorists.

FREE KAUFMAN!

Algeristan'](OOC)

Forget listening to that loopy communist!

Kaufman was a democratically elected leader who worked day in and day out to build Torontia into a safe, secure and wealthy nation.

Being the deranged stupid evil beings that they are, the communists hated Kaufman for his hard work and his total dedication to global freedom and democracy, so they staged a terrorist uprising and killed nearly half a million people.

Kaufman never killed innocents, only terrorists.

FREE KAUFMAN!

OOC: He may have been democraticly elected, but the last elections were the first for 17 years, he abandoned democracy when he came into power. And the majority of people killed were civillians.

Yes civilians were killed, by the evil conspiracy of global communism which was behind the criminal uprising of the satanist communist gangsters!

Leave some of the Communists alone Its the Way the Country Exicutes its communism Not the Idea Its self Most of you Should actually Learn about The Communist befre you go ranting On about Destroying Them and How they bring evil to the world

So many posts, so little time:Bow-wow-wow!Woof! Woof! Woof!Bow-wow-wow!Woof! Woof! Woof!Bark! Bark!Take it somewhere else. The Court (and the government of the United States of Allemande) couldn't care less about the Great Global Communist Menace, Kaufman's record of kicking dogs or drowning kittens, or anything else unrelated to this trial. I am creating a thread called Paul Kaufman: The Man, The Myth (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9372563#post9372563) where you can argue this nonsense to your heart's content. It doesn't belong in my courtroom.FREE KAUFMAN!Torontia? Is that you? Is so, the best way for you to free your boy is to start defending him. This is no show trial. I figure you have a 50-50 chance of getting him off on the merits. Either argue your case or hire a lawyer from another country to do so.

If you don't hire your own attorney, the Court will appoint one for you. ;)Allemande was on the side of Norton.Actually, no. We decided not to intervene in the civil war when we saw that the only choice was between Norton - who delighted in killing rich people - and Kaufman - who delighted in killing poor ones. Some choice.

As for the rest of your post, it's all irrelevant to this trial. Kaufman is not:
On trial for being a dictator.


On trial because he was Allemande's enemy.


On trial for killing civilians.


On trial for using WMD's.


On trial for threatening other countries.
Allemande is not the world's policeman. That job would belong to the U.N., but they're having donuts right now. Call again in a couple of centuries.

Let's stick to the case, or take it to the political blog thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9372563#post9372563).The Lone Alliance will be sending people to this trial, as it is our actions that led to Paul Kaufman's exile and capture. We will also aid in any security needed, as we fear that Paul Kaufman may use his money to hire soldiers to help him escape.Thank you, but this is unnecessary (at least the help with security). The trial is in our capitol, which is quite well defended; nothing short of a Normandy-style landing is going to spring this guy. We will, however, accept assistance from any FT nations who wish to (discreetly) patrol orbital airspace over Allemande in case an FT nation tries to break him out.

Just don't let our radar see you, or else we'll have to add several hundred pages to Project Blue Book. ;)

And Magical intruders should'nt even bother. We've already contracted with an unnamed ally to protect against magical intrusion; there are more wards around our capital right now than you can shake a stick at... ;)

Your delegates may observe, of course. And our President will go on record as saying that he appreciates the role you played in bring Kaufman down.We would like to send Captain Dr.Fianos Corbalas of the 7th medical unit and a registered mental evaluator,to be on the jury.If Captain Corbalas is an expert on the kinds of psychoses from which Mr. Kaufman appears to suffer, then his proper role is as a medical examiner, since Allemande will be requesting a thorough psych eval of the accused. You can do that eval and testify as to Paul Kaufman's sanity (when the time comes).

Questions as to the make-up of the jury will need to wait until Mr. Kaufman has decided if he wants a jury or wishes to waive that right. That's his call.If Kaufman attacked Torontian (Spelling), then why does allenade (sorry if I'm getting the names, it's hard for me to switch back and forth to posts) prosecuting him?It's in the indictment: On July 29th, 2005, Paul Kaufman, in his role as President of the Republic of Torontia, is alleged to have ordered his Republican Guards to assault the campus of Seattle City University and "spare no one inside the university". At that time, 31 citizens of the United States of Allemande were either registered students at the University, or were employed there as faculty or staff. All were killed. Allemande is now trying Mr. Kaufman for conspiracy to commit murder.

We are still seeking those who actually carried out the orders, but knowing precisely who among the Republican Guards killed which student is proving to be very difficult. We are hoping that the Republic of Torontia will be able to help us locate these individuals and extradite them to Allemande for trial.The People's Republic of New Sans would just like to enquire in a similar amount of effort will be put into finding the missing assets taken by Mr. Kaufman and when the nation of Torontia can expect all of that money to be returned to them?Efforts are under way to locate the money and recover it. To date, of the estimated $74 billion stolen by Mr. Kaufman, $41 billion has been recovered and returned to Torontia. Due to the nature of property law in Leafanistan, where Mr. Kaufman was hiding, his property there appears to have reverted to public control; we're not sure how much that was, thanks to complexities in Leafanistan's legal and economic system. We're hoping that Mr. Kaufman will see the error of his ways and return the rest, but that's only something that we (realistically) hope on Sunday mornings just before taking Communion.

We think that it's amazing that we've managed to recover as much as we have (over 55% of the loot).OOC: You could have a few members of different nations to be jury. These could then judge the verdict.As indicated above, we can't talk about the constitution of the jury until Mr. Kaufman decides if he wants a jury.

Paul Kaufman has 48 hours to respond, or the Court will enter a plea of "Not Guilty" on his behalf, and appoint a public defender to assist him in his defence.

OOC: He may have been democraticly elected, but the last elections were the first for 17 years, he abandoned democracy when he came into power. And the majority of people killed were civillians.


Yes, but does the constitution of Torontia have any provisions for term length?

Allemande:

Have you read my TG?

Is that an RP we can do.

If not, Algeristan will be defending Kaufman and will pay for and hire his defence team.

The Republic of Sergio the First would like to provide legal counsel to Mr. Kaufman. Our legal team will be made up of:
- Sergio Landolt Costa, Attorney-General;
- Bruno Landolt Costa, Supreme Court Justice;
- Carvalho Landolt Costa, Senior Partener of Landolt, Costa & Weisseman.
Furthermore, our Republic argues that the Allemande´s authorities intention to appoint a public defender to Mr. Kaufman may be seen has a biased move, since the nature of the indictement will present any Allemande´s lawyer a unsormountable conflict of interest. Therefore, we sugest that the Court appoints the Republic of Sergio the First legal team as legal counsel to Mr. Kaufman.

Furthermore, our Republic argues that the Allemande´s authorities intention to appoint a public defender to Mr. Kaufman may be seen has a biased move, since the nature of the indictement will present any Allemande´s lawyer a unsormountable conflict of interest. Therefore, we sugest that the Court appoints the Republic of Sergio the First legal team as legal counsel to Mr. Kaufman.Bias is seen where none is present; our laws dictate the procedure described for all accused persons, and we can not set aside our law merely because the accused (in this case) was once the President of a foreign country. Either Mr. Kaufman names his own counsel, or - under our law - one will be named for him.The Republic of Sergio the First would like to provide legal counsel to Mr. Kaufman. Our legal team will be made up of:
- Sergio Landolt Costa, Attorney-General;
- Bruno Landolt Costa, Supreme Court Justice;
- Carvalho Landolt Costa, Senior Partener of Landolt, Costa & Weisseman.We recommend that you discuss this with Mr. Kaufman (OOC: Algeristan). His choice of cousel - assuming he makes one - is his call.The Copiosa Scotia Department of Justice has filed an amicus curiae brief asserting that the government of Leafanistan violated their promises of asylum for the defendant by extraditing him to Allemande.This will be dismissed out of hand with prejudice (meaning the issue can not be raised again). The behavior of Leafanistani officials or persons acting on behalf of Leafanistan is not relevant to this case.

Anyone seeking to defend Mr. Kaufman, BTW, will be doing so with attorneys who are members of the Bar in Allemande. They may be citizens of your country, but they have no standing to practice law in ours unless they are members of the Bar. No exceptions will be entertained.

Anyone seeking to defend Mr. Kaufman, BTW, will be doing so with attorneys who are members of the Bar in Allemande. They may be citizens of your country, but they have no standing to practice law in ours unless they are members of the Bar. No exceptions will be entertained.
But surely lawyers from othe nations may obtain a temporary permit from your Bar association to practice law in your country...specially taking into consideration the particular circunstances of the case.

The Republic of McKagan would like permission to dock the destroyer RMV Cobalt at the nearest port to the trial. While, if you allow, the normal crew of the vessel will use this time for shoreleave, a few members of the command staff will be representing McKagan in this trial.You may dock, and are welcome to enjoy our hospitality, including many of the world's finest beers.We also have a few charges we would like to add which talk about this mans desire to purchase illegal nuclear and chemical weapons from our nation.We can not charge Mr. Kaufman with violations of either McKagan or international law.

To All Nations Wanting to Charge Mr. Kaufman with Something

Take a number and stand in line... ;)

No, seriously...

You may request Mr. Kaufman's extradiction; once such a request has been made, he can not leave our country until the matter is resolved, even if acquitted of his current charges. If convicted, he will be extradited (if your request is approved) after serving out his sentence.

The order in which extradition requests will be honored is solely up to us.

On matters of international law, we recommend that you look at the United Nations Resolutions pertaining to the creation and operation of a Pretenama Panel. The creation and operation of such a panel would have to be handled in a separate thread.

The Republic of Sergio the First urges Mr. Kaufman or his representatives to contact our authorities.
Furthermore, we request any other nations interested in defending Mr. Kaufman to contact our Republic.

But surely lawyers from othe nations may obtain a temporary permit from your Bar association to practice law in your country...specially taking into consideration the particular circunstances of the case.OOC: Is this a normal procedure in RL? That seems both odd and dangerous (given that the whole purpose of the Bar is to guarantee legal competence); do your people know our law?

The more usual procedure, I believe, would be to hire an Allemander law firm and work through them. The effect would be the same: you'll still be in charge of the defence (assuming that Kaufman/Torontia/Algeristan lets you do this); you'd just be working with a different set of characters.

Besides, it's likely that if your nation does any business with us, you already have people who are members of our Bar. Use them.

From: The Republic of Algeristan

To: Allemande

In the name of Allah, the most merciful

The Holy Republic of Algeristan has been asked by Mr. Paul Kaufman, to organise the legal defence team for Mr. Kaufman in his trial and Algeristan will cover ALL the costs involved in the legal expenses in defending Mr. Kaufman.

Algeristan will hire a well known and respected Allemande laywer, Mr Kenneth Star, to represent and defend Mr. Kaufman in this trial.

Mr. Star is one of Allemande's top laywers with a very high, near perfect, rate of success in his work as a defence attorney.

Algeristan will set aside 10 billion USD for the costs involved in Mr. Kaufman's defence.

May the courts see sense and see the innocence of Mr. Kaufman and reject this vile communist attempt to bring one of the worlds most beloved and respected statesmen to disgrace by trying to destroy his freedom and his civil rights.

President Hassan Tarbani

To: The Allemande Supreme Court

I, Mr. Paul Kaufman, confirm the role of the Holy Republic of Algeristan to organise and pay for my defence team under the representation of Mr. Kenneth Star, a leading Allemande laywer and a member of the Allemande Legal Bar Association.

Paul Kaufman

In face of the recent developments, we mantain our offer of legal services to Algeristan.

Algeristan']To: The Allemande Supreme Court

I, Mr. Paul Kaufman, confirm the role of the Holy Republic of Algeristan to organise and pay for my defence team under the representation of Mr. Kenneth Star, a leading Allemande laywer and a member of the Allemande Legal Bar Association.

Paul KaufmanOK, Mr. Starr. ;)

The ball's in your court. Look at the charges in the second post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9369361&postcount=2), and reply to the indictment. Keep it short (prosecution's filing was basically two bullets), something like an outline of your legal position and the arguments you'll make at trial. Also, let the Court know if you want a jury or are waiving the right to a jury trial.

The Court will then either move to trial, dismiss, or ask for further filings.

OOC: Has anyone ever done a trial before, or are we breaking new NS ground?!?

You mean a trial in the foruns or in real life?

You mean a trial in the foruns or in real life?OOC: Duh! In the forums. Jeez. Do I look like a lawyer?

To: The Allemande Supreme Court/Paul Kaufman vs. Republic of Allemande

Paul Kaufman ordered the Republican Guard to "shoot all students inside the University Compound (sic?)" and to "spare no one inside the university". Since this meant that persons who had no connection whatsoever to the protests of that afternoon would be killed as well, it could not be construed as a proper response to the situation. Rather, it represented an order to perpetrate a massacre upon the students, faculty, and staff of the university.


Paul Kaufman had no legal authority to issue such an order that afternoon. Even though he was a de facto dictator, the laws of the Republic of Torontia in force on July 29th, 2005 did not permit such a mass extra-judicial killing in the absence of anything like legal due process.

In the trail of Mr. P. Kaufman vs. the Republic of Allemande, the above points are the main basis on which the prosecution seek to charge Mr. Kaufman for 'conspiracy to commit murder'.

The defence team can only argue that under the consitution of the New Order political system, that was set up after the election of Mr. Kaufman to the Torontian Presidency, Mr. Kaufman did indeed have such authority in relation to his orders in the anti-terrorist operation at Seattle State Univeristy on the 29th July 2005.

Such authority was explicit in the constitution of the New Order when the events in question involve terrorist activity.

Our defence team wil make public the constitution of the New Order and will highlight the extracts that gave Mr. Kaufman the legal authority to act in relation to the anti-terrorist operation and his increase in powers of the executive during times of civil unrest.

Our defence team will also ask for a JURY TRIAL.

Defence Team Leader

Mr. Kenneth Starr

OOC: Duh! In the forums. Jeez. Do I look like a lawyer?
OCC: Thanks for the outrage...it worms my heart, considering i do practice law

If Captain Corbalas is an expert on the kinds of psychoses from which Mr. Kaufman appears to suffer, then his proper role is as a medical examiner, since Allemande will be requesting a thorough psych eval of the accused. You can do that eval and testify as to Paul Kaufman's sanity (when the time comes).




roger that.the captain requests that you send any files or testimony so he can start his investigation.

Algeristan']To: The Allemande Supreme Court/Paul Kaufman vs. Republic of Allemande



In the trail of Mr. P. Kaufman vs. the Republic of Allemande, the above points are the main basis on which the prosecution seek to charge Mr. Kaufman for 'conspiracy to commit murder'.

The defence team can only argue that under the consitution of the New Order political system, that was set up after the election of Mr. Kaufman to the Torontian Presidency, Mr. Kaufman did indeed have such authority in relation to his orders in the anti-terrorist operation at Seattle State Univeristy on the 29th July 2005.

Such authority was explicit in the constitution of the New Order when the events in question involve terrorist activity.

Our defence team wil make public the constitution of the New Order and will highlight the extracts that gave Mr. Kaufman the legal authority to act in relation to the anti-terrorist operation and his increase in powers of the executive during times of civil unrest.

Our defence team will also ask for a JURY TRIAL.

Defence Team Leader

Mr. Kenneth Starr Thank you, Mr. Starr.

The Court will adjourn (OOC: While I go to the doctor for my annual physical) to consider the pleadings of both parties. This hearing will resume tomorrow (this evening).

OOC: Oh, and formally, you're being tried in Federal District Court, not before the Supreme Court.

The Copiosa Scotia Department of Justice has filed an amicus curiae brief asserting that the government of Leafanistan violated their promises of asylum for the defendant by extraditing him to Allemande.

Let me answer that question. Leafanistan does not automatically give diplomatic immunity to national leaders. They must file ahead of time. And remember, Leafanistan didn't directly offer him asylum. Sierra Visions Inc. a state-owned and regulated industry, invited, Mr. Kaufman over, with no intention of keeping him safe. It was my understanding that the CEO was going to recieve a major payment for this, and is legal under the Mercenary and Bounty Hunter Act. Even though it was state-owned, and regulated, it can be in no means be construed that Sierra Visions Inc. is Leafanistan and represents the interests of the Leafanistani People or the Glorious Republic. Leafanistan does have a provision which allows foreign and domestic bounty hunters arrest those who have international arrest warrants. So it appears his arrest is legal.

-Minister of Justice

PS: We have taken $20 billion as under our laws because as soon as he accepted the penthouse, he accepted a residency clause and therefore his 100% income tax comes into play. Yes this clause was run past the Senate several years prior to his entry. We've used it before to seize funds.

The Commandante has a question for Allemande- If Kaufman is found not guilty, will he be delivered to Peopleita, were he is facing charges of attempted genocide and Terroism?

The Commandante has a question for Allemande- If Kaufman is found not guilty, will he be delivered to Peopleita, were he is facing charges of attempted genocide and Terroism?

And we would also like to try Paul Kaufman for tax evasion. As you can understand he owes money, but he still considered it "his" assets so therefore it falls under the 100% income tax law. However, because he has to pay such debts to other nations, he hasn't paid 100% of his original income to the state when he first entered.

-Minister of Justified Candy

To: Peopleita

Our defence team will fight ANY move by your nation's authorities to have Mr. Paul Kaufman 'extradited' to your nation.

Whilst we disagree with the case of the prosecution of the judicial authorities of the Republic of Allemande, Mr. Kaufman will at least have a fair trial over in Allemande.

The same CANNOT be said of Peopleita as your nation is a one party dictatorship and your nation has no INDEPENDENT justice system.

Justice does not exist in your nation and only those people who support your dictatorship get any chance of not being prosecuted in your nation, for you judge people not on evidence, only on political bias.

Your nation also has the death penalty, in the interests of human rights, we cannot allow for you to go anywhere near our client.

Besides, Mr. Kaufman NEVER killed ANY of your citizens and NEVER attacked your nation or tried to destroy it.

You have no legal authority to try Mr. Kaufman as he never committed any crimes in or against Peopleita.

Just because you disagree with Mr. Kaufman's political views or his ideas, gives you NO right to seek a court case against him, you are trying to destroy Mr. Kaufman's human and civil rights.

If the courts in Allemande find Mr. Kaufman not guilty, you cannot try him twice for the same crime, as that is unconstitutional.

Once a man is found innocent in a court of law, he is innocent PERIOD!

Defense Team Leader

Kenneth Starr

Algeristan']To: Peopleita

Our defence team will fight ANY move by your nation's authorities to have Mr. Paul Kaufman 'extradited' to your nation.

Whilst we disagree with the case of the prosecution of the judicial authorities of the Republic of Allemande, Mr. Kaufman will at least have a fair trial over in Allemande.

The same CANNOT be said of Peopleita as your nation is a one party dictatorship and your nation has no INDEPENDENT justice system.

Justice does not exist in your nation and only those people who support your dictatorship get any chance of not being prosecuted in your nation, for you judge people not on evidence, only on political bias.

Your nation also has the death penalty, in the interests of human rights, we cannot allow for you to go anywhere near our client.

Besides, Mr. Kaufman NEVER killed ANY of your citizens and NEVER attacked your nation or tried to destroy it.

You have no legal authority to try Mr. Kaufman as he never committed any crimes in or against Peopleita.

Just because you disagree with Mr. Kaufman's political views or his ideas, gives you NO right to seek a court case against him, you are trying to destroy Mr. Kaufman's human and civil rights.

If the courts in Allemande find Mr. Kaufman not guilty, you cannot try him twice for the same crime, as that is unconstitutional.

Once a man is found innocent in a court of law, he is innocent PERIOD!

Defense Team Leader

Kenneth Starr

OK Clever man here are the facts.

1. We are not a dictatorship, we first came to power during the reveloution against the facists, re installed democracy and won with 60 sometihng percent of the vote.

2. We have a large political freedoms, there are no outlawed parties, not even the Nazis.

3. Genocide and attempted Genocide is an international crime, and can be prosecuted in any country.

4. He has threatend to attack our country, he nearly declared war on us and threatened to use WMDs on us, unless we changed our communist ways, despite the fact were not communist. Under Peopleitan law, threats against the country falls under Terrorism, so we have every right to try him.

To: Allemande

Thank you for allowing us to dock. Most of our crew are off the ship now. They wish to inform you that of the 12 ports in various countries they have visited aboard this ship that this one has the best beer. Other crew members who were on other ships prior are saying the same, only with slightly higher numbers.

But back to business. We would like to ask you if we can handle our own security in this port? The Tactical Officer says that this job can be done by placing only 12 personnel with P90 SMG's off the ship on the peir and in otherwise strategic locations close to the ship. While I do not think you will have a problem with this, I am also requesting permission to keep a RHIB in the water armed lightly. This is simply a guard against suicide attacks such as that on the USS Cole.

Concerning the actual trial, several of my officers are watching in. We have dropped our wishes to press charges unless your nation is unable to proscecute him. If you cannot we wish to press the aforementioned charges and have him moved to McKagan aboard this vessel.

PS: Keep security high around Algeristan.

--RMV Cobalt

bump

Leafanistani Press got off a nearby commercial airliner and headed to the trial. 2 cameramen were ONI officiers, they carried Guerilla SMGs, made entirely out of plastic, they would appear as waterguns in X-rays and not set off metal detectors. They got past security easily.

OOC: You do realise you will be searched when entering the building?

OOC: You do realise you will be searched when entering the building?

OOC: They are ONI personnel, of course they realize that, its in the cameras. Those are digital cameras, we've developed much smaller, yet high quality versions, but we use an older design to have enough room to hide a gun inside of it.

Official Confederate Response

The Confederacy of Economic Associates would like to express its condolances to the victims of Paul Kaufman. While we do not condone any actions taken by the former President of Torontia we would like to voice our concerns about the trial taking place and the recovery efforts of the money stolen by Mr. Kaufman. First off we would like to discuss the issue of a biased trial. Not only is Mr. Kaufman being tried in a nation which has been directly influenced by his actions but one who has clearly stated that they have a score to settle with him. Allemande is also not the only country who has been affected by Mr. Kaufman. Because of this having a trial by Allemande's laws in Allemande's territory other nations are effectivly being barred from prosecuting him.

We at the Economic Associates would also like to discuss a ruling by the judge in this case.

This will be dismissed out of hand with prejudice (meaning the issue can not be raised again). The behavior of Leafanistani officials or persons acting on behalf of Leafanistan is not relevant to this case.
The Confederacy of Economic Associates would first like to wonder why a motion is being dismissed with prejudice. We are only aware of complaints being able to be dismissed with prejudice and not motions. Also we would also like to know the reason for this decision and the legal precident it is based off of.

The Confederacy of Economic Associates has serious doubts about the impartiality of this trial. We would recomend that an independent tribunal made up of neutral nations should prosecute Mr. Kaufman. We are also concerned about the efforts to recover the money stolen by Mr. Kaufman. We are worried that the economic troubles of this nation and the inability to find the full amount of money. This will surely effect numerous nations that have money invested in Torontia and the effects of this on the global economy. We would suggest an independent group of finacial investigators have access to Mr. Kaufman and all bank records to verify where the money has gone. To allow nations who have been affected by Mr. Kaufman would not be able to unbiasedly investigate this serious matter.

Sincerly yours

John Kirkland, Offical Delegate of the Confederacy of Economic Associates

Offical Republic Response

The People's Republic would like to mirror the concerns raised by the Confederacy of Economic Associates, and believe that these issues should be adressed.

Donald Giert, Foreign Minister.
The People's Republic of New Sans.

You may request Mr. Kaufman's extradiction; once such a request has been made, he can not leave our country until the matter is resolved, even if acquitted of his current charges. If convicted, he will be extradited (if your request is approved) after serving out his sentence.The Islamic Republic of Ayaddha requests the extradition of Mr. Paul Kaufman once the United States of Allemande are through with him.

He is wanted for 17 counts of conspiracy to commit murder, as well as other crimes.

McKagan's sailors and marines (I assume that's the right terminology) are given permission to secure their vessel and the adjoining pier. To avoid any issues pierside, we will assign a 4-man security detail to assist you; the capitol police will also want to remain in touch with you and will drop by from time to time to check in on you.

Keep in mind that, although we cannot charge Mr. Kaufman for the crimes you mention, you may still seek his extradition if you wish. If we choose to extradite him to McKagan, he will be handed over to the crew of your warship and your vessel will be furnished an addiitional escort for the voyage home.

Leafanistani Press got off a nearby commercial airliner and headed to the trial. 2 cameramen were ONI officiers, they carried Guerilla SMGs, made entirely out of plastic, they would appear as waterguns in X-rays and not set off metal detectors. They got past security easily.OOC: Airport security, sure. Security in court ... we'll see (getting out his percentile dice [muahahahahahaha]).

(In RL, the downtown Post Office in the town where I work is in the Federal Building, as is the Social Security office [my wife draws disability]. Their security is quite tight, and they're probably not a high-level target [no FBI office there, AFAIK]. IOW, I've seen airport security and courtroom security, and the latter is easily an order of magnitude better.)

We are pressing for him to be extradited ONLY if he is found not guilty.

Otherwise we're just watching.

Let's start with the simple stuff:This will be dismissed out of hand with prejudice (meaning the issue can not be raised again). The behavior of Leafanistani officials or persons acting on behalf of Leafanistan is not relevant to this case.Also we would also like to know the reason for this decision and the legal precident it is based off of.Easy. The question of whether Leafanistan broke its promises to Mr. Kaufman has no bearing on his innocence or guilt. He either committed the crimes in question or he didn't, and Leafanistan's actions one way or another won't change that.


Grants of asylum by other countries do not immunise Mr. Kaufman from prosecution under our law in the absence of any treaty to which we are a signatory stating otherwise. No such treaty currently restrains us.


The manner by which Mr. Kaufman arrived in our hands has no impact on his eligibility for trial.Dismissal was with prejudice because the issues in question are matters of law and not fact; consequently, until our laws change, there's no basis for a reconsideration of the question, regardless of whatever arguments may be made. We don't want the Court's precious time wasted with repetitive challenges that are certain to fail.

Now on to the main issue:Allemande is also not the only country who has been affected by Mr. Kaufman.Correct. Also irrelevant. We're not trying Mr. Kaufman on behalf of the world, for "crimes against humanity". That isn't our place. The sole issue we are considering is his alleged murder of 31 of our citizens. Since they're our citizens, we're going to try him under our law. It's as simple as that.Not only is Mr. Kaufman being tried in a nation which has been directly influenced by his actions but one who has clearly stated that they have a score to settle with him.Every international criminal finds himself in the same position. This is nothing new.Because of this having a trial by Allemande's laws in Allemande's territory other nations are effectively being barred from prosecuting him.First come, first serve. You are, of course, free to seek his extradition, like everybody else.We would recomend that an independent tribunal made up of neutral nations should prosecute Mr. Kaufman.An international tribunal would have no standing to try Mr. Kaufman for violations of Allemander law. His alleged transgressions against Allemande are the only issue of concern for us.

Now, as we have already pointed out, the rest of the world could always avail themselves of the process spelt out by the United Nations in Resolution #83 (The Eon Convention on Genocide) and Resolution #92 (Humanitarian Intervention). If you want to seem him tried for crimes against the general peace or for human rights violation, then we recommend you pursue these avenues. But that is not our current concern.We are also concerned about the efforts to recover the money stolen by Mr. Kaufman. We are worried that the economic troubles of this nation and the inability to find the full amount of money. This will surely effect numerous nations that have money invested in Torontia and the effects of this on the global economy. We would suggest an independent group of finacial investigators have access to Mr. Kaufman and all bank records to verify where the money has gone. To allow nations who have been affected by Mr. Kaufman would not be able to unbiasedly investigate this serious matter.If you wish to organise such an effort, that would be fine. Mr. Kaufman is unlikely to cooperate, however, and it is unclear if he could be compelled to answer any questions you might have about his finances. But you're welcome to try.

Lone Alliance Forces have arrived by Hind Helicopter, our Delagates are here to disclose any evidence uncovered on our investigation of the money transcations that went on during Mr.Kaufman's removal from office.

Our military forces meanwhile are moving to deploy in a secure location for reinforcement if need be. We are prepared to deploy at a moments notice to defend the location of the Trial. Given enough time we can turn any building into a bunker.

The judge gavelled the hearing to order.

"I have one question to ask each side, and then I'll make my decision."

"To the prosecution: have you examined the Torontian Constitution, and are you prepared to dispute the claims made by the defendant that it gives him broad powers to deal with situations like that of July 29th, 2005?"

"To the defendant: have answered one of the two assertions made by the prosecution - that the killings were illegal - but not the other - that Mr. Kaufman essentially ordered the deaths of those killed that day. Is it your intention to dispute the second assertion as well?"

She paused, and then eyed both attorneys. "Finally, I want to remind you that I don't like surprises in my courtroom. If we go forward, it will be on the basis of a roadmap laid our today - and one that everyone can reference. We'll have full prior disclosure of witness lists, evidence to be introduced, and we'll all know in outline form what arguments are going to be made."

"I tell you this, gentlemen, so that you can have one last chance to put your cards out on the table before we proceed. If the prosecution doesn't reveal a line of attack it intends to use in this case, then it will be forbidden to use that line of attack; the same goes for the defense. I'll allow some flexibility when it comes to calling rebuttal witnesses, but that's it," she continued.

"And as we go forward, remember: an point unchallenged by your side is a point conceded. That's why I want to know if the defence is going to challenge the assertion that Mr. Kaufman's orders were what killed these 31 people; if you don't, then it will be considered a given, and we'll spend our time arguing over whether Torontian law permitted that," said the judge.

"So one last round of statements and submissions, and I'll make a decision on whether or not - or how - to go forward."

OOC: I'm imposing structure on these procedings - more than would be present in real life - to keep this from dragging on forever. Basically, though, the two sides in any court battle usually do have to let the other side know their basic lines of attack, in order that the next stage - discovery - can go forward.

The Prosecution

We have indeed examined the laws of the Republic of Torontia in effect on July 29th, 2005, and believe we can show that then-President Kaufman acted unlawfully in issuing the order to kill everyone on the campus of Seattle City University.

Our case will follow the charges contained out in the indictment; we do not expect to have to address any questions beyond the legality of Mr. Kaufman's actions and their effect on his victims. As the Court recognises, we may need to call a few rebuttal witnesses, but only to bolster the argument that we have essentially spelt out here today.

<pauses, confers with other prosecutors>

While not a part of our case, per se, there is an issue that we need to address at some point in these proceedings: that of Mr. Kaufman's sanity. While we believe it has no bearing on his guilt, the question of Mr. Kaufman's mental health could affect his sentence if convicted. Therefore we will seek to have a full psychological workup of the defendant taken at some point in these proceedings. We have no particular preference, however, into when this ought to occur.

OOC: Your turn, Torontia/Algeristan.

~Courtroom~
Upon hearing the Insanity question brought up the Lone Alliance delagates began muttering amoung each other.
"Him being a complete headcase, we've been saying that for weeks." The LA delagate whispered to his co workers. "Indeed, but this shouldn't let him get off, he still had the free will to do those attacks." Said another, "It won't matter unless we are called up so shut up." (OOC:Basicly a Bump here)

We are pressing for him to be extradited ONLY if he is found not guilty.

Otherwise we're just watching.

If found not guilty we would like Allemande to send him to Peopleita, were he is also facing charges.

To: Peopleita

1. We are not a dictatorship, we first came to power during the reveloution against the facists, re installed democracy and won with 60 sometihng percent of the vote.

2. We have a large political freedoms, there are no outlawed parties, not even the Nazis.

3. Genocide and attempted Genocide is an international crime, and can be prosecuted in any country.

4. He has threatend to attack our country, he nearly declared war on us and threatened to use WMDs on us, unless we changed our communist ways, despite the fact were not communist. Under Peopleitan law, threats against the country falls under Terrorism, so we have every right to try him.

There is no such law in international treaty for 'attempted' genocide.

You CANNOT charge someone for a crime they did NOT commit.

It's like saying that if a man THINKS about stealing a bike and goes up to the bike but then changes his mind and does not steal it, you cannot have him arrested as he has yet to commit the crime.

Not only would it be near impossible to try someone in a court of law for attempted genocide, due the HUGE problems regarding evidence, you also have the moral question.

Is it right to punish people for crimes they have yet to commit, that seems to be going down the road of fascist barbarity and our defence team will ensure that Mr. Kaufman does not meet such injustice.

As for trying our client on the basis of making verbal threats to your nation, that does NOT constitute terrorism, regardless of what your laws say on that.

EVERY nation has at some point in their history made threats to other nations on a verbal level. there is NOTHING wrong with nations verbally threatening each other, better than to have an actual all out violent war.

Our defence team even has data that your nation has in the past passed on threats to other nation, therefore you should be trying yourself, but we don't expect the show trial 'courts' in Peopleita to try their own dictator.

On a last note, we can see that your government does not have the legal right to try Mr. Kaufman or anybody else for that matter.

Since your government came to power in a violent revolt and you did not come to power in the legal democratic method of elections, legally speaking, the President of Peopleita who was in power before your revolt should still be in power and is the legal head of state of Peopleita.

You used terrorist methods to attain power and therefore we cannot reconise your legal case as having any validity whatsoever.

It has become obvious to us that your nations civil servants need to be trained in law school as no one in Peopleita seems to have even the most basic understanding on how the justice system works.

Our team and our client are more than confident that Allemande will see sense and NOT hand Mr. Kaufman over to the dictatorship of Peopleita.

Defence Team Leader

Kenneth Starr

Again, read our factbook, the former Persident of Peopleita (Adolf Windsor), was a facist who oppresed the people, and killed an estimate 4 million people. The otherthrow was supported by 95% of the population. We than re installed democracy, and won in the election. We are not a dictorship. Attempted genocide means that he tried to kill all of the political people who opposed him, including innocent civillians, but failed. He still killed hundreds of thounsands of people. He stated that he intended to invade Peopleita, until he realised he had no support and called it off. That is conspiracy to create a terrorist act, which under Peopleitan law, falls under terroism. As for the threats to Torontia, they were mearly stateing that he could not hope to succesfully invade Peopleita. Again in the unlikely event that Kaufman is found not guilty, because it is blatantly obvious that he is, we have every right to try him. And then if he is found not guilty, which is unlikely because it is blatanly obvious that he is guilty, he will be tried in Leafanistan for tax evasion.

Question: if Torontia, under the rule of Mr. Kaufman was indeed a dictatorship where education was fully handed over to the private sector, this means that only the rich had the economic clout to send their children to university. So, according to the indictement of the Allemande prosecution, Mr. Kaufman ordered the mass execution of the sons and daughters of the higher classes that were indeed his main-or only-support stronghold. Hum, I suppose that the prosecution would have us believe that besides being a ruthless autocrat, Mr. Kaufman his quite a brainless idiot... ;)

I wish that you fun-loving pranksters would at least get your spelling right. It is irksome to be surrounded by would-be founders of nations who are apparently still struggling to get out of primary school. No elderly citizen will let a failed boyscout or other punk help her across the street, let alone vote for him.

The Prosecution

We have indeed examined the laws of the Republic of Torontia in effect on July 29th, 2005, and believe we can show that then-President Kaufman acted unlawfully in issuing the order to kill everyone on the campus of Seattle City University.

Our case will follow the charges contained out in the indictment; we do not expect to have to address any questions beyond the legality of Mr. Kaufman's actions and their effect on his victims. As the Court recognises, we may need to call a few rebuttal witnesses, but only to bolster the argument that we have essentially spelt out here today.

<pauses, confers with other prosecutors>

While not a part of our case, per se, there is an issue that we need to address at some point in these proceedings: that of Mr. Kaufman's sanity. While we believe it has no bearing on his guilt, the question of Mr. Kaufman's mental health could affect his sentence if convicted. Therefore we will seek to have a full psychological workup of the defendant taken at some point in these proceedings. We have no particular preference, however, into when this ought to occur.

OOC: Your turn, Torontia/Algeristan.


Captain Dr.Fianos Corbalas will begin his investigation ASAP

I wish that you fun-loving pranksters would at least get your spelling right. It is irksome to be surrounded by would-be founders of nations who are apparently still struggling to get out of primary school. No elderly citizen will let a failed boyscout or other punk help her across the street, let alone vote for him.

Spalling ist foor losrs.

I wish that you fun-loving pranksters would at least get your spelling right. It is irksome to be surrounded by would-be founders of nations who are apparently still struggling to get out of primary school. No elderly citizen will let a failed boyscout or other punk help her across the street, let alone vote for him.



OOC:Please leave,we have no time for people who think that to go forward in this game you have to insult another persons writing you damn dirty NOOB,NOW LEAVE YOUR NOOB SMELL SCARES THE CHILDREN!!!!! :p

To claim that the matter of mental insanity has no bearing in pronouncing Mr. Kaufman guilty is a blatant error. One can only be found guilty of a crime if one has the capability to tell right from wrong and a reasonable degree of mental control over one´s actions.

Captain Dr.Fianos Corbalas will begin his investigation ASAP


OOC:it is my caracters job to figure out,will we have cross examination.

This may have been already written but I can't be bothereed to look. Has Kaufman entered a plea yet?

I haven´t seen one formal plea yet

Algeristan']To: The Allemande Supreme Court/Paul Kaufman vs. Republic of Allemande



In the trail of Mr. P. Kaufman vs. the Republic of Allemande, the above points are the main basis on which the prosecution seek to charge Mr. Kaufman for 'conspiracy to commit murder'.

The defence team can only argue that under the consitution of the New Order political system, that was set up after the election of Mr. Kaufman to the Torontian Presidency, Mr. Kaufman did indeed have such authority in relation to his orders in the anti-terrorist operation at Seattle State Univeristy on the 29th July 2005.

Such authority was explicit in the constitution of the New Order when the events in question involve terrorist activity.

Our defence team wil make public the constitution of the New Order and will highlight the extracts that gave Mr. Kaufman the legal authority to act in relation to the anti-terrorist operation and his increase in powers of the executive during times of civil unrest.

Our defence team will also ask for a JURY TRIAL.

Defence Team Leader

Mr. Kenneth Starr

OOC: ^ This seems to indicate a Not Guilty Plea.

OOC: ^ This seems to indicate a Not Guilty Plea.
Indeed, but musn´t that plea be explicit?

Doesn't Kaufman himself have to say what he pleads?

Doesn't Kaufman himself have to say what he pleads?

Not necessarily, he is being represented by these people so they can enter the plea on his behalf. If he consents to it.

Well, i guess Mr. Kaufman can even change his plea during the trial...and why not just strike a plea bargain?

What would the benifits be though? In Peopleita that would be life in solitary as opposed to the firing squad (back by publics demand). And BTW in Peopleita life means life, you're in prison 'till you die.

What would the benifits be though? In Peopleita that would be life in solitary as opposed to the firing squad (back by publics demand). And BTW in Peopleita life means life, you're in prison 'till you die.
Yes, in your country maybe, but not in a territory that has a western-style legal sistem.

It is sort of western style, cases are reviewed on case by case business, and with Kaufman, that's what it would be, Solitary or Firing squad, assuming he is foung guilty of course. You've been listening Algeristan too much lol.

To claim that the matter of mental insanity has no bearing in pronouncing Mr. Kaufman guilty is a blatant error. One can only be found guilty of a crime if one has the capability to tell right from wrong and a reasonable degree of mental control over one´s actions.We said that we believe ("we" being the prosecution, not the Court) that it has no bearing. If Mr. Starr wants to mount an insanity defence, that's his prerogative. ;)

We said that we believe ("we" being the prosecution, not the Court) that it has no bearing. If Mr. Starr wants to mount an insanity defence, that's his prerogative. ;)
Oh, sorry, sometimes is hard to tell the difference...

Indeed, but musn´t that plea be explicit?OOC: I look at this RP thread as the Reader's Digest version of the trial (actually, we're just finishing the preliminary hearing), so I'm assuming from his responses that he's entered a plea of "Not Guilty". If you want, we can make him say that explicitly, but I figure that he did that between posts and we're just looking at the highlights, so to speak.

Oh, sorry, sometimes is hard to tell the difference...I'll try to make it clearer...

I'll try to make it clearer...
OOC: Bear with me, ok, in real life i´m not a native to the common-law sistem...but i´m trying to learn

Hmmm. Looks like Mr. Kaufman may need to find someone else to pay Mr. Starr's retainer: Algeristan has just gotten caught up in a nuclear war...

Beacuse Im nuking the world and killing millions of infidels, invisible communists and others beside, can we put this trial on hold as I dont have time to destroy the world and defend Kaufman.

BTW Im nuking Peopleita into dust and will soon invade Leafanistan, therefore we need not worry about sending Kaufman to those nations for another trial, as Algeristan will have both ver soon.

Your not nukeing me into the dust, and there is no way you'll win this war. You've commdemed Kaufman by your actions.

and with that i declare this tread ruined THANKS ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

The communists have taken over, best become a democratic country, FREE KAUFMAN

RAWR!RAWR!RAWR!OOC: Remember, Paul Kaufman: The Man, The Myth (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9379822#post9379822). You can RAWR all you want there. ;)

Can we put this trial on hold as I dont have time to destroy the world and defend Kaufman.Decisions, decisions. Destroy the world?


Defend Kaufman?Tough call. :D

If you'll be back in a day, that's fine. Or you can hold off on World War 37 until we get past the hearing (which will be just a couple more posts) and then I can set the stage for the trial.

Or you can have Sergio the First take over.

Secret IC to Allemande

We, here at RMAF Security Command (RMAFSECOM), have decided that due to the large support that Kaufman has aquired in several countries, it might be best for us to put in a backup plan incase he is found not guilty.

If you'll allow, a covert team will set up a plan and operation in and around the Kaufman trial. We can work with your people. We want to pull a switch on this whole ordeal.

If he is found not guilty we can fake a sniper or IED attack on him or a convoy he is in. At this point you insert a fake body and move him to a desert prison facility or ship him to us, no matters what. We have a unit onboard the warship in your harbor. Please let us know so we can put the plan in motion or stop it all together.

Secret IC to Allemande

We, here at RMAF Security Command (RMAFSECOM), have decided that due to the large support that Kaufman has aquired in several countries, it might be best for us to put in a backup plan incase he is found not guilty.

If you'll allow, a covert team will set up a plan and operation in and around the Kaufman trial. We can work with your people. We want to pull a switch on this whole ordeal.

If he is found not guilty we can fake a sniper or IED attack on him or a convoy he is in. At this point you insert a fake body and move him to a desert prison facility or ship him to us, no matters what. We have a unit onboard the warship in your harbor. Please let us know so we can put the plan in motion or stop it all together. Secret IC to McKagan

Our current plan is to extradite somewhere else if he is acquitted. We're sticking to that plan.

Secret Response

We, frankly, cannot allow dictators to run the worlds politics like this. If he is found not guilty, move him to the port, put him on our ship, and we'll ship him off to a military trail.

Secret Response

We, frankly, cannot allow dictators to run the worlds politics like this. If he is found not guilty, move him to the port, put him on our ship, and we'll ship him off to a military trail.Secret Response to Secret Response

We didn't say he'd walk away free. We said we'd hand him over to someone else in response to their extradition request. :D

Secret Response to Secret Response

We didn't say he'd walk away free. We said we'd hand him over to someone else in response to their extradition request. :D
Indeed, Mr. Kaufman´s possible extraditation to any country must imply strict legal due process. Doesn´t Allemande have a constitucional provision disallowing extradition to countries were the defendant may face the death penalty or life inprisionement?

In McKagan we freese political prisoners in cryostatis.

We would like to think that Peopleita is first in line for Kaufman if he is found not guilty. We do have the death penalty, although cases are reviwed on case by case basis, and if he pleades guilty he cannot face the firing squad (the way murderers are executed).

In McKagan we freese political prisoners in cryostatis.
But Mr. Kaufman isn´t a political prisioner...political crimes only exist in dictatorships...is that the case? Although i do grant that cryostatis doesn´t equal death.

bump

Indeed, Mr. Kaufman´s possible extraditation to any country must imply strict legal due process. Doesn´t Allemande have a constitucional provision disallowing extradition to countries were the defendant may face the death penalty or life inprisionement?No, we have no such prohibition. Some of our states have the death penalty, and the Federal Government has it for treason and espionage (although it hasn't been used for years).

We would like to think that Peopleita is first in line for Kaufman if he is found not guilty. We do have the death penalty, although cases are reviwed on case by case basis, and if he pleades guilty he cannot face the firing squad (the way murderers are executed).The wrinkle is that we don't extradite for any crime that would not be a crime under our law as well. So (for example) if a nation wanted someone for apostasy, we could not extradite, since apostasy is not a crime under our law.

That will affect where Mr. Kaufman goes if acquitted.

But Mr. Kaufman isn´t a political prisioner...political crimes only exist in dictatorships...is that the case? Although i do grant that cryostatis doesn´t equal death.

I know, I know, I messed my term up.

:headbang: when does the trial start anyway i cant wait anymore!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Kaufman needs to file his last brief and the we can detemine if, where, and when the trial will occur.

Allemande:

You told McKagan that you would let Kaufman walk free from his trial even if freed by your courts, you imply with other nations of having killed off by some spec. ops. or a hired hitman.

Unless I can have the chance of getting Kaufman back so I can use him for another RP event, Im not going to get involved in this trail and will just ignore everything.

Algeristan']Allemande:

You told McKagan that you would let Kaufman walk free from his trial even if freed by your courts, you imply with other nations of having killed off by some spec. ops. or a hired hitman.

Unless I can have the chance of getting Kaufman back so I can use him for another RP event, Im not going to get involved in this trail and will just ignore everything.No, what I told McKagan was that Allemande doesn't have the death penalty or prisons. That's not the same thing as walking free.

And I've said all along that extradition was an option.

Nor did I promise you could get Kaufman back. I said you might get him back - eventually. And I never told you how.

If you don't participate, I'll just ask Sergio the First to finish the trial or I'll finish it for you. I hold Kaufman, and so you're not in an position to ignore me.

So reply by morning, or I'll proceed without you.

OOC: If you moved him to my nation (if he was found not guilty) and WE found him not guilty, would we be in trouble if we let him walk instead of passing him on down the line?

Algeristan']Allemande:

You told McKagan that you would let Kaufman walk free from his trial even if freed by your courts, you imply with other nations of having killed off by some spec. ops. or a hired hitman.

Unless I can have the chance of getting Kaufman back so I can use him for another RP event, Im not going to get involved in this trail and will just ignore everything.

OOC: Hire RedTide2, I won't risk war with such a big trading partner, you know that.

OOC: Hire RedTide2, I won't risk war with such a big trading partner, you know that.

OOC: Forget RT2. Just put in a communique to the HCIA, and we'll have Delta One knock Kaufman off. On another note, can someone provide a link to the events leading up to this, or at least describe the events leading up to this? I'd like to know why I'm killing this dude before I do it.

OOC: Forget RT2. Just put in a communique to the HCIA, and we'll have Delta One knock Kaufman off. On another note, can someone provide a link to the events leading up to this, or at least describe the events leading up to this? I'd like to know why I'm killing this dude before I do it.

I mean for Algeristan, he could free Kaufman. I won't fuck with Red Tide.

OOC: If someone wants to get someone in the country to cap K just send him to my destroyer in the bay, they let us dock to watch the trail.

Alternativly I can send in a sniper.

OOC: If someone wants to get someone in the country to cap K just send him to my destroyer in the bay, they let us dock to watch the trail.

Alternativly I can send in a sniper.Nobody's capping Kaufman. Period.

Algeristan, finish your arguments before the Court so that I can either bind you over for trial or release you.

Once bound over, we'll have to address such issues as jury selection and venue.

OOC: Forget RT2. Just put in a communique to the HCIA, and we'll have Delta One knock Kaufman off. On another note, can someone provide a link to the events leading up to this, or at least describe the events leading up to this? I'd like to know why I'm killing this dude before I do it.

Here is what he did when he was in office:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434801
Use overwhelming force on his own people.

His personal crusade against Peopleita and all Socialist Nations:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435006

His mocking and insanity in World Talks:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9348111#post9348111

Being an idiot in the UN:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434976



Then our nation got fed up with him being all talk and went after him.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435456&page=1&pp=15
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435465&page=1&pp=15
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435468&page=1&pp=15
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=435529&page=1&pp=15

I say, we would like to see more concern about the legal proceedings and less bravado about who will get to finish off Mr. Kaufman ;)

I say, we would like to see more concern about the legal proceedings and less bravado about who will get to finish off Mr. Kaufman ;)That would be nice, seing as how this was supposed to be a legal thread.

I sent Sergio a TG about what I should do next.

I know fuck all about law as I have never entered a court before in my life.

Can someone tell me what to do.

Otherwise someone else is going to have to do this, not only is this legal BS complicated, but I find it very boring, fuck I should of killed Kaufman off or made him go into hiding or something.

Wise choice. Only a fool represents himself.

Seriously, this won't stay boring. We've just bogged down because of Algeristan's wars.

BTW, in a moment of sick weakness, I've suggested that Leafie sell Paul Kaufman clones through his storefront. Now everyone can kill one off!!! ;)

(And so maybe folks will leave me alone to finish this trial!!!)

OK people, lets try to stay focused, we can still overcome this and make a hell of a good fight-with no nuclear weapons, for a change.
Algeristan, first of all: yes, i´m a criminal trial attorney, but that´s in my country, the Real Life Republic of Portugal (should have made that clear, sorry).
The legal sistem is somewhat different from the one you all share in the US .
Nonetheless, i´m at this very moment conducting a quick www survey to get the gist of it.
Anyway, what i gathered from many years of watching american lawyer shows on tv, you´ve been doing everything according to the book so far.
I guess Kaufman pleaded guilty from his answer to the Allemande´s accusation, so you no longer have to worry about that.
If, for any chance, Algeristan doesn´t fell up to the task or bored, and no one with prior experience in common-law legal steps up to the plate, i´d be glad to help.
It would be a shame to let such a nice idea goe to waste. ;)

(OOC) Sergio:

Im in London, British law is way different to any other nations.

So Im just as fucked on US law as anyone else.

Can you give me advice, I made Kaufman go for a JURY TRIAL when they asked what trial type I wanted.

Now were on a JURY TRIAL, what should I do now?

OK, just so you know, we're not following American law precisely.

Now, some coaching: If one side makes an unchallenged statement, the judge and jury must accept that statement as true. That's why I'm asking if you dispute the prosecution's claim that Mr. Kaufman's actions caused the wrongful death of the students, quite aside from the legality of his actions. At one point, you claimed that their deaths were accidental, at another you claimed that they had attacked your Republican Guards. If you're going to try to make either of those arguments, you need to say so now. Otherwise, we move forward assuming that you basically ordered a massacre and the sole issue is whether that was your legal right.


Jury trial or trial by a panel of judges? Judges would be less subject to emotional appeal, more prone to decide on a basis of law and facts. How important is emotion to each side here? Also, if a jury trial is chosen, we will have to come up with a balanced jury. That could be a problem.


The crucial issue before us now is whether there will be a trial, on what grounds the case will move forward, and whether it will be by jury or by a judicial panel. If a jury, the question of venue (location) may have to be considered. The trial will not be moved overseas but it may have to be moved away from the capitol.


After that, we lay out our arguments, announce (some of) our witnesses, and the begin the trial itself.I'll coach you further as needed.

Ok, Algeristan my EU friend, what i´ve been able to gather is that you and the accusation have passed one of the early phases, that of the pleadings.
The accusation has brought forth a claim, you have answered to it.
Allemande´s D.A. can still reply. But at this phase you still make no plea of guilty or not guilty.
The upcoming stage is the preliminary hearing. There, a judge will determine if the prosecution has been able to make the case for probable cause, being if there exists sound suspects about Kaufman´s involvement in the case.
If the judge finds probable cause, Kaufman will be bound over to the trial court. Still in the preliminary hearing he´ll be asked to plead guilty or not guilty.
By the way, priot to the preliminary hearing, the magistrate has to set bail. Has that been made? (BTW, the choice for a jury trial can prove rather prejudicial. Do you believe a jury of the peers of the Allemande´s butchered students will act impartially?)

Oh, Allemande his being quite a good sport about it, you won´t have a problem. Still, if I were you i would argue that kaufman ordered solely the non-lethal control of any possible demonstrations at the campus, but the Republican Guard got carried away. But, had he given the orders to carry a punitive campaing, he couldn´t be held accountable, because the king can do no wrong.
(ooc:gosh, my criminal justice sistem is way less complicated)

(OOC)

Seeing that a jury trial is more in favour of having Kaufman prosecuted, can I change my demand from a jury trial to a court one?

If so then Ill post that and the case of Mr. Kaufman acting within Torontian Law and his actions legallity.

Has this thread become extinct?

By the way, priot to the preliminary hearing, the magistrate has to set bail. Has that been made?No, we're glomming that all together. Prosecution will ask that bail be denied in light of threats against Mr. Kaufman's life as well as plots to spring him from our custody. He's being kept in reasonably comfortable digs, though. ;)

Oh, Allemande his being quite a good sport about it, you won´t have a problem. Still, if I were you i would argue that kaufman ordered solely the non-lethal control of any possible demonstrations at the campus, but the Republican Guard got carried away. But, had he given the orders to carry a punitive campaing, he couldn´t be held accountable, because the king can do no wrong.
(ooc:gosh, my criminal justice sistem is way less complicated)Yeah, like he said... ;)

That would be a good counterargument. Something should be offered, so that you don't have just the legal argument to fall back on...

Allemande.

Can I cnahge my choice from jury trial to judge panel one?

It's better for Kaufman.

Plus, Kaufman has been moaning that his 'digs' is not up to standard, can he be re-located under your guard to the Allemande Hilton, penthouse suite with 24 room service.

Algeristan']Allemande.

Can I cnahge my choice from jury trial to judge panel one?

It's better for Kaufman.

Plus, Kaufman has been moaning that his 'digs' is not up to standard, can he be re-located under your guard to the Allemande Hilton, penthouse suite with 24 room service.
How posh...ok,what´s next,then?

Can I cnahge my choice from jury trial to judge panel one?Yes. That will eliminate the argument that you can't get a fair jury trail, of course. ;)Plus, Kaufman has been moaning that his 'digs' is not up to standard, can he be re-located under your guard to the Allemande Hilton, penthouse suite with 24 room service.Sure, just give us your credit card number ... :eek:

oK, so when will we get the arraingment to decide of the need for bail?

I'm reversing the order for the sake of speed. It will come after we decide if he's going to be charged and when (and where) the trial will be (since I figure that if he makes bail, he'll be out during the time between trial and hearing).

So did he give you official leave to represent him? I thought that he did. And is the answer you gave re: the killings going to be his answer? If so, the judge will retire to chambers and decide if we should go forward.

I dunno if i represent him...I didn´t see Mr. Kaufman firing is legal counsel...i guess it´s up to him...i don´t know if Algeristan will take breaks from nuking half the planet to carry forth Kaufman´s defense.

Again i ask: is this thread extinct?

looks like it.

Great, anther good idea down the drain...

The Fernetti Justice system is very diffrent from other systems. The Fernetti government is quite a liberal one, this being said, Law and Psychology are both in the same study. In our system, people who committ mistakes such as manslaughter are forgiven or if the judges or jury find a robber stealing not to do harm but because he was desprate, he is sentenced to help in an instituition for 5 years, rather then being punished. However, our system is willing to cope and adapt with the torontian law and justice punishment.

Some Fernetti Citizens have been protesting the "judge trial", and are angry with Kaufman's lawyers for making the descision of not having a jury.

"Do you know what they'll do to him?!" said Leader of the FREE KAUFMAN campaign Barry Goldmanstein "The Torontian judges are harsh!! Not only that but they have so much bias against Kaufman already, they'll definitly convict him! His lawyers have made horrible mistakes!!! Kaufman must have a jury, An international jury of no bias!! If not that, then they should have an international group of judges decide his fate. No Bias shall be held against Paul Kaufman! None!"

Out of reccomendation by the fernetti government, we suggest that Mr. Kaufman's trial shall be made up of either an international Jury or international Judges from a handful of countries that want to participate.

Again i ask: is this thread extinct?No, I've been busy.The Torontian judges are harsh!!This trial is in Allemande. Pay attention! ;)Out of reccomendation by the fernetti government, we suggest that Mr. Kaufman's trial shall be made up of either an international Jury or international Judges from a handful of countries that want to participate.That would be a Pretenama Panel. Go ahead and start one, but since Allemande quit the U.N., we don't use such panels.

Our law, our courts, our judges, our juries, our land, our people. Next?

No, I've been busy.This trial is in Allemande. Pay attention! ;)That would be a Pretenama Panel. Go ahead and start one, but since Allemande quit the U.N., we don't use such panels.

Our law, our courts, our judges, our juries, our land, our people. Next?
OK, point of order: the nation of Algeristan has vanished due to external intervention. What of the matter of Mr. Kaufman´s counsel? If it´s his wish, Sergio the First would be willing to defend him pro bono.
ooc:i´m that kind of a sweet guy...

Sergio:

Can you defend Mr. Kaufman, please.

BTW, This is my new nation, it's the New State one that I was talking about.

Sergio:

Can you defend Mr. Kaufman, please.

BTW, This is my new nation, it's the New State one that I was talking about.
Right, being Mr. Kaufman´s express wish, the Republic of Sergio the First makes it know that it will take up his defence.
Contacts are being made to get a Allemande lawyer on the defense team so everything will be by the book.
BTW, good choice on the new nation, my limey friend

The Republic of Sergio the First makes it know that it has hired the services of Mr. Nigel Fitzimons-knickersonatwist, Esq., Allemande´s citizen currently enroled in the Allemande´s Bar Association, to provide legal counsel for Mr. Paul Kaufman, defendant in the criminal procedings taking place in the Republic of Allemande.
We wait due recognition from the Court of the new counsel to Mr. Kaufman.

Sergio Landolt Costa, Attorney-General

The Fernetti Justice system is very diffrent from other systems. The Fernetti government is quite a liberal one, this being said, Law and Psychology are both in the same study. In our system, people who committ mistakes such as manslaughter are forgiven or if the judges or jury find a robber stealing not to do harm but because he was desprate, he is sentenced to help in an instituition for 5 years, rather then being punished. However, our system is willing to cope and adapt with the torontian law and justice punishment.

Some Fernetti Citizens have been protesting the "judge trial", and are angry with Kaufman's lawyers for making the descision of not having a jury.

"Do you know what they'll do to him?!" said Leader of the FREE KAUFMAN campaign Barry Goldmanstein "The Torontian judges are harsh!! Not only that but they have so much bias against Kaufman already, they'll definitly convict him! His lawyers have made horrible mistakes!!! Kaufman must have a jury, An international jury of no bias!! If not that, then they should have an international group of judges decide his fate. No Bias shall be held against Paul Kaufman! None!"

Out of reccomendation by the fernetti government, we suggest that Mr. Kaufman's trial shall be made up of either an international Jury or international Judges from a handful of countries that want to participate.
If you think the judges will be harsh, what do you supose would be the reaction of twleve jurors towards a man indicted with the slaying of a number of their countrymen?

The Republic of Sergio the First makes it know that it has hired the services of Mr. Nigel Fitzimons-knickersonatwist, Esq., Allemande´s citizen currently enroled in the Allemande´s Bar Association, to provide legal counsel for Mr. Paul Kaufman, defendant in the criminal procedings taking place in the Republic of Allemande.
We wait due recognition from the Court of the new counsel to Mr. Kaufman.

Sergio Landolt Costa, Attorney-GeneralOOC: Mr. Nigel Fitzimons-Knickersonatwist, Esq.? He must be an immigrant - all native Allemanders have names that are ambiguously Anglo-French... ;)

IC: Very well, then, Mr. Nigel <deep breath> Fitzimons-Knickersonatwist, Esq. is recognised as counsel. Let's move this along...

OOC: I had a colonoscopy yesterday. I'm in a good mood because of the drugs and a bad mood because of, well, never mind.

IC: Defence is asked to do the following: State whether you will challenge both statements made by the prosecution:In the filings, prosecutors claim that: Paul Kaufman ordered the Republican Guard to "shoot all students inside the University Compound (sic?)" and to "spare no one inside the university". Since this meant that persons who had no connection whatsoever to the protests of that afternoon would be killed as well, it could not be construed as a proper response to the situation. Rather, it represented an order to perpetrate a massacre upon the students, faculty, and staff of the university.


Paul Kaufman had no legal authority to issue such an order that afternoon. Even though he was a de facto dictator, the laws of the Republic of Torontia in force on July 29th, 2005 did not permit such a mass extra-judicial killing in the absence of anything like legal due process.Thus far, you have challenged the second statement, but given no indication of whether you will challenge the first. Will you be challenging this second point?


You seem to be revisiting the decision as to whether you wish a jury trial. Please make a final decision.


If a jury trial is chosen, will you be asking for a change of venue (trial location)?


Prosecution seeks denial of bail, on the basis of a claim of reasonable probability of flight, as well as risk to the defendant and all around him. Do you wish to argue against this?Then we can proceed to discovery and trial (or not).

OOC: I don't want to coach you, but seeing as how you're not American, I will tell you that an American attorney might employ the following tactic (out of sheer chutzpah): Demand a jury trial. Claim that media bias/prejudice, etc., makes the selection of an impartial jury impossible. Move for dismissal on the grounds that a fair trial is impossible due to jury biasYes, it's cheap. Maybe even unethical (because a fair trial could almost always be obtained by seeking trial by a panel of judges). But it has worked (though not often).

If you did this, I would have to find a place in Allemande where a pool of jurors could be found who were largely unexposed to media coverage of the whole Torontian crisis. That might be difficult...

As a European lawyer (Spanish or Portuguese?) you now have my permission to be outraged at such tactics. Or not, depending on legal ethics or the lack thereof in your home country... ;)

(BTW, in addition to recuperating, I'm also fighting a war right now [as another of my alter egos, Narodna Odbrana, in the Imperialism RP thread (I'm the Dual Monarchy [of Austria and Hungary])], so responding may take some time. But you're online, so maybe we can get this moving...)

OOC: Mr. Nigel Fitzimons-Knickersonatwist, Esq.? He must be an immigrant - all native Allemanders have names that are ambiguously Anglo-French... ;)

IC: Very well, then, Mr. Nigel <deep breath> Fitzimons-Knickersonatwist, Esq. is recognised as counsel. Let's move this along...

OOC: I had a colonoscopy yesterday. I'm in a good mood because of the drugs and a bad mood because of, well, never mind.

IC: Defence is asked to do the following: State whether you will challenge both statements made by the prosecution:Thus far, you have challenged the second statement, but given no indication of whether you will challenge the first. Will you be challenging this second point?


You seem to be revisiting the decision as to whether you wish a jury trial. Please make a final decision.


If a jury trial is chosen, will you be asking for a change of venue (trial location)?


Prosecution seeks denial of bail, on the basis of a claim of reasonable probability of flight, as well as risk to the defendant and all around him. Do you wish to argue against this?Then we can proceed to discovery and trial (or not).

OOC: I don't want to coach you, but seeing as how you're not American, I will tell you that an American attorney might employ the following tactic (out of sheer chutzpah): Demand a jury trial. Claim that media bias/prejudice, etc., makes the selection of an impartial jury impossible. Move for dismissal on the grounds that a fair trial is impossible due to jury biasYes, it's cheap. Maybe even unethical (because a fair trial could almost always be obtained by seeking trial by a panel of judges). But it has worked (though not often).

If you did this, I would have to find a place in Allemande where a pool of jurors could be found who were largely unexposed to media coverage of the whole Torontian crisis. That might be difficult...

As a European lawyer (Spanish or Portuguese?) you now have my permission to be outraged at such tactics. Or not, depending on legal ethics or the lack thereof in your home country... ;)

(BTW, in addition to recuperating, I'm also fighting a war right now [as another of my alter egos, Narodna Odbrana, in the Imperialism RP thread (I'm the Dual Monarchy [of Austria and Hungary])], so responding may take some time. But you're online, so maybe we can get this moving...)
Counsel for Mr. Kaufman presents the following brief to th Court:
On the first account of the charge, Mr. Kaufman argues that he solely issued orders to the Republican Guard to contain the demonstrators on campus using strictly adequate non-lethal methods; if a general slaughter took place, that can only be explained by the Republican Guard units on the campus permises acting on their on volition;
on the second account of the charge, even ifMr. Kaufman had issued such a heinous command, the defendant couldn´t be prosecuted because he enjoys total immunity for crimes commited while in office, as its clear that the "king can do no wrong";

On the matter of choice between jury trial or trial by a panel of judges, counsel for the defense chooses trial by panel of judges.

on the matter of bail, Mr. Kaufman asks that he be put under house arrest in the Sergio the First´s embassy to Allemande, as this will allay any fears of flight or of risks for the defendant´s life.

ooc:i´m a portuguese lawyer and jury trials are quite rare around here...and i wouldn´t want the defendant getting out on a technicalitie.
Colonoscopy?Isn´t that when they stick a...never mind, don´t ask, don´t tell ;)

sorry been busy did the trial start.

sorry been busy did the trial start.
Not yet...there´s been a bit of a problem to the disapearance of Algeristan...but now everyone trusts things will get on track :D

TAG, if somewhat belated. I'm quite interested to see how this'll play out...have at it, you two! :p

Colonoscopy?Isn´t that when they stick a...OOC: Yeah, buddy. One of the joys of reaching 50 (or so). :eek:
ooc:i´m a portuguese lawyer and jury trials are quite rare around here...and i wouldn´t want the defendant getting out on a technicalitie.OOC: What?!? Every American lawyer wants his client to get off on a technicality. Sheesh, what are you, some kinda commie? ;)
On the first account of the charge, Mr. Kaufman argues that he solely issued orders to the Republican Guard to contain the demonstrators on campus using strictly adequate non-lethal methods; if a general slaughter took place, that can only be explained by the Republican Guard units on the campus permises acting on their on volition;
on the second account of the charge, even ifMr. Kaufman had issued such a heinous command, the defendant couldn´t be prosecuted because he enjoys total immunity for crimes commited while in office, as its clear that the "king can do no wrong";

On the matter of choice between jury trial or trial by a panel of judges, counsel for the defense chooses trial by panel of judges.

on the matter of bail, Mr. Kaufman asks that he be put under house arrest in the Sergio the First´s embassy to Allemande, as this will allay any fears of flight or of risks for the defendant´s life.OOC: Down to business.

"Thank you both for your briefs. I will retire to chambers and consider whether to go forward with this matter," says the judge.

OOC: Now I have to do my homework...

"Having examined the briefs submitted by both sides, here are my findings:
There appears to be a reasonable basis for the prosecution's claim that Mr. Kaufman, as President of the Republic of Torontia, did indeed issue orders to his Republican Guard on July 29th, 2005, that caused them to indiscriminately slay the students, faculty, and staff of Seattle City University, regardless of whether such action was called for under the situation or not.


There appears to be a reasonable basis for the prosecution's claim that Mr. Kaufman, as President of the Republic of Torontia, did not have the legal right, under the laws of the Republic of Torontia such as existed on July 29th, 2005, to issue such the orders described above.
"Therefore, the prosecution has shown that sufficient grounds exist to move forward to trial.

"The defendant has asked to be tried by a panel of judges. Therefore, three judges will be selected from the pool of jurists available to the 1st Federal District, to hear the case when it comes to trial.

"Prosecution has asked for a denial of bail; defendant has essentially agreed that bail would be inappropriate by requesting house arrest within the embassy of the Republic of Sergio the First. Since a nation's embassy, under Allemander law, is its own soil, this would effectively mean transfer of Mr. Kaufman to another country's territory. Such an action is not permitted under our law, and so will be denied.

"Consequently, since the defendant has not challenged any of the prosecution's claims regarding flight, his own safety, or the safety of others, he will remain in the Government's custody without bail. Of course, his counsel will retain full access to him during the remainder of these proceedings.

"Both sides are now instructed to begin the process of discovery."

Examination of the judge's opinion reveals:
She reached her opinion on the first point (responsibility) based on preliminary evidence pertaining to the events of that day. Enough evidence has been offered to suggest that Mr. Kaufman may well have issued orders to kill everyone on campus to require a trial. At trial, of course, the matter will still be subject to contest, meaning that witnesses will have to be questioned and evidence examined. As a point of law, in the English system, it takes only a relatively modest amount of evidence to meet the requirement for trial, so this is no great victory for the prosecution.


She reached her opinion on the second point (legality) by reading:


Torontia's New Order Constitution (which does in fact appear to give Mr. Kaufman sweeping powers as a virtual dictator).


United Nations Resolutions #26, #27, #49, and #94, as well as the modifications made to Torontian Law by the nation's Compliance Ministry, which significantly undermined the sweeping rights given to Mr. Kaufman under the New Order Constitution.

Although the perponderance of legal opinion would suggest that, since (NationStates) United Nations Law supercedes National Law, the aforementioned United Nations Resolutions pretty much leave the defendant's argument that "the King can do no harm" in shambles, the judge believes that enough of a possibility exists of finding a loophole in these Resolutions to require the matter to be raised at trial, meaning that witnesses (legal experts) will need to be heard and evidence (actual copies of the laws of Torontia and the United Nations) submitted on the matter. This is a significant victory for the prosecution, but not decisive.
Discovery means that both sides now have a right to ask the other to reveal their arguments in somewhat more detailed form, listing evidence they will submit and witnesses they will hear. Each has the right to see the other's evidence and question the other's witnesses prior to trial.

Interested third parties may also (now) submit amicus briefs.

Prosecution also moves tho have Mr. Kaufman subjected to psychiatric analysis, since his mental state will affect his sentence if he is convicted. Unless you have grounds to object, the judge will approve this.

OOC: You should have asked for a jury trial! That would have been interesting, since I would have had to move the trial to some remote part of the country where media coverage is non-existant (anticipating this move, prosecution had found such a place, and going there would have been a blast, but what can you say...).

Also, the "jury" would have been other nations. But that's behind us now. ;)

If you think the judges will be harsh, what do you supose would be the reaction of twleve jurors towards a man indicted with the slaying of a number of their countrymen?

OOC: No, that was my people that thought they would be harsh, when people do want a cause, they exaggerate a little. Plus it was just a character. Anyway, my real opinion like I said was that the jury or set of judges should definitly be international, considering it will be more fun for others and their will be no bias feelings yet.

IC: The Fernetti government is aware Mr.Kaufman's final desision is to go ahead with a judge trial, but we still wonder if it will be of an international panal, if it will be just one judge or a panal of judges from the same country. Though it is not really the government's concern, it is now affecting them in ways they wouldn't think of. Kaufman supporters are causing mobs and riots in the streets. This is causing a concern for many Fernetti Citizens.

"What is this madness?" sais Lawyer Vincent Palmero "These insane Citizens are causing chaos in the streets of Fernetti for no reason. This isn't our problem. If Paul Kaufman was a Fernetti citizen who wasn't given a fair trial, sure protest and make sure Kaufman is in good hands, but this isn't our country and these people don't apply to our rules, So what the hell are these people doing making Fernetti look like an insane aisle?!"

"It doesn't matter if he's not our citizen!" responds FREE KAUFMAN member Samuel Jason "It's not the point whether our rules are diffrent from them or not, Him and his defense team are making mistakes to themselves, and need to make a desision in favor of an international team of judges, not a Allenade team of judges!"

Official Statement from the Shah of Parthia:

As the legislator of most of the laws that get passed in my nation, I would like to ask a few things. Firstly of legality, I would like to point our that, as a de facto dictator, most nations recognize absolute authority of the said dictator. However, this depends on if the constitution was still in force or not. If it was suspended, or nonexistent (as is the case with Parthia) then the case is moot, he was fully within his rights as ruler to act as he did. Also, of the UN, it really wouldn't matter if the resolutions did apply to this case if he was not a UN member. Nations who are not members, nor nations that refuse recognition to the UN (like Parthia) are not constrained by any resolutions passed which violate national sovereignty, such as, using any means to put down a protest, not like I ever use Mr. Kaufman's methods though.

Thirdly, if he's guilty, then take him out to a public square, tie him to a pillar and have a couple hooded men scourge him to death while a crowd cheers. I'll even send people to do it for you. I never understood this idea of trials, here we have a judge look at the evidence, and then gives a verdict and a sentince in 30 minutes. That is very efficent

so has the trial started




BUMP

OOC: Where is everybody? We gotta get back on track. I don't want this thing to die.

And Moronvia, the trial has not started yet. We are still determining his prosecution team.

IC: Angry Supporters of Kaufman are still causing riots in the Fernetti Streets, which means police forces are taking action :mp5:, leaving chaos still causing a problem. We must request that Mr. Kaufman's trial be from an international panal of judges. About 40-50 innocent people and police officers have been killed so far from the riots, and over 200 injured. This will be a problem until you change your mind, Lead Defense Lawyer. This isn't the government's concern, but Kaufman has many supporters here in Fernetti, and we need you guys to make an international trial. We here at Fernetti are about Love and Peace, but if you refuse to comprimise, we will have no choice but to take Kaufman in to our own hands and have the trial here at Fernetti. We wouldn't want to invade your country like that. So we hope you can understand that this is the only way the violence will end. Please change your minds.

OOC: So who is the prosecution going to be anyway? And will the trial start right after that?

Angry Supporters of Kaufman are still causing riots in the Fernetti Streets, which means police forces are taking action :mp5:, leaving chaos still causing a problem. We must request that Mr. Kaufman's trial be from an international panal of judges. About 40-50 innocent people and police officers have been killed so far from the riots, and over 200 injured. This will be a problem until you change your mind, Lead Defense Lawyer. This isn't the government's concern, but Kaufman has many supporters here in Fernetti, and we need you guys to make an international trial. We here at Fernetti are about Love and Peace, but if you refuse to comprimise, we will have no choice but to take Kaufman in to our own hands and have the trial here at Fernetti. We wouldn't want to invade your country like that. So we hope you can understand that this is the only way the violence will end. Please change your minds.

Leafanistan a quiet observer during this trial is insulted that you would still defend a man who has killed hundreds, nay, THOUSANDS in the name of his false vision of capitalism. We ask that you please cram it up your behind and stop complaining as your small nation cannot sway us in anyway.

-Minister of Justice

Can you make a post on the Willink/Arabanistan war thread, things have gone crazy now and nuclear!

Can you make a post on the Willink/Arabanistan war thread, things have gone crazy now and nuclear!

I have 20 pages to read mind you!

Leafanistan a quiet observer during this trial is insulted that you would still defend a man who has killed hundreds, nay, THOUSANDS in the name of his false vision of capitalism. We ask that you please cram it up your behind and stop complaining as your small nation cannot sway us in anyway.

-Minister of Justice


OOC: You're right Leafanistan, I've been a bit obnoxious and greedy because I wanted to be in the jury or panal of judges, and I'm very sorry. And I don't really support Kaufman, I'm not on his side. I was just ticked that the trial was not international, but of course that is your descision and I was being very whiny and selfish about it, please forgive me.

I would still like to participate some how. We didn't come up with a prosecution team yet, right? Maybe I'll do that, I'll think about it.

OOC: You're right Leafanistan, I've been a bit obnoxious and greedy because I wanted to be in the jury or panal of judges, and I'm very sorry. And I don't really support Kaufman, I'm not on his side. I was just ticked that the trial was not international, but of course that is your descision and I was being very whiny and selfish about it, please forgive me.

I would still like to participate some how. We didn't come up with a prosecution team yet, right? Maybe I'll do that, I'll think about it.

OOC: That was an In Character post. It may or may not reflect my Out of Character posts. Please continue, I think this thread is dead anyway.

(OOC)

To: Allemande

My nation of Algeristan was deleted by the admins, as you well know.

However the Kaufman defence team can be funded by Arabanistan.

I would like to get this thread/trial back into action and get kaufman out of the current state of limbo and set him free.

(OOC: I'll need to get back into this)

(OOC)

Both Arabanistan and Torontia are my nations.

Check out the Military coup in Torontia thread.

Kaufman's supporters have taken control in a coup and have removed Jack Norton from the government.

Secret IC: In Light of the Coup in Torontia we request that the Guarding of Kaufman be increased greatly to pervent his return to Torontia. -Lone Alliance

At least that's what the message said. In reality the Lone Alliance decided to make their move on Kaufman. Using the cover of being an aid to guarding him. TLA assassins broke into the building holding him. To finally approch his cell and toss a vial of Toxins inside, before taking off and running. The deadly toxins would do the job quite well.