NationStates Jolt Archive

Several years ago, Sileetris embarked on the noble and ambitious project Aten. The program consisted of the launching and positioning of six mirrors, 100,000 sq mi each, months away in space between the earth and the sun to combat global warming. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=432563) While it is true they do this, recent events have proven (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=433250&page=1), and the Sileetris government has now confirmed, that they have a secondary function as weapons capable of focusing large amounts of light into destructive beams. We maintain however that they will not be used for nefarious deeds and will only serve to partially replace our nuclear arsenal, it being cleaner and cheaper to use the Aten disks. They cannot be hijacked electronically, as the targetting solutions must all be calculated on earth from our closed and secret supercomputer bank. We ask the nations of the world not to view these weapons as threats, and not to shoot them down (they also function to stop global warming). Our older nuclear arsenal is being downsized and safely dissassembled.

We told you all, and we were right.

Protesting following the announcement has been extremely light, while many Sileetrians polled said they didn't like the idea of the government doing something risky on the international scene, most went on to agree with the motives and said they like the idea of having a cheaper alternative to nuclear weapons around. Vocal opponents are in the minority that opposes the military in general, and a couple shouting matches have occured on national talk panels; obviously concluding with a clear victory to the more practical supporters of the military. Foreign human rights groups have remained either silent or vaguely supportive, citing the lack of permanent environmental damage as an improvement over other WMDs.

OOC: A good Idea Sil, that ICly may push my government into developing something like that, but for power...

OOC: I thought about doing that, but with all the movement etc. it would be too hard to target the rays continuously on something without using a laser intermediate.

OOC: I thought about doing that, but with all the movement etc. it would be too hard to target the rays continuously on something without using a laser intermediate.

OOC: The Idea I had was using solar panels in GS orbit gathering sunlight during daylight hours, and having massive power cables travel down to earth... not pretty but simple...

OOC: Meh, I'll keep an intelligence ship (NAVAL) watching it, I won't shoot it down. Besides, if I were going to hack it i'd send a team up to it, makes for a better RP.

OOC:You sure you want to get rid of your nukes for THAT??!! If the enemy wanted to take it out all he would have to do is lob sufficient ammount of ASAT Missiles at it, lob conventional missiles based on sattelites at it, or(in my case) utilise suicide sattelites.

Wouldn't one well placed missile be capable of keeping it from magnifying/reflecting/targeting light?

OOC: Actually, the things are months away in space, and the exact details of the firing system are still hidden, but it is extremely robust. Also, I'm not getting rid of all of my nuclear arsenal, just scaling it down a bunch.

Hmm, what does a nation of almost 5 billion with a frightning economy need? More nukes of course. Don't dismantle, resell! Would be a great boost to your economy I assure you. When you have completely put your faith in this "new world" menice..Please feel free to contact the Empire. We find the old stuff works just as well as the old stuff.

Emperor Mwto'ar Uganda
Sambizie Empire

They cannot be hijacked electronically, as the targetting solutions must all be calculated on earth from our closed and secret supercomputer bank.I.e. they can only be OMG JAMMED, OMG FLOODED and OMG BURNED OUT?

Oh, and of course OMG KE KILLED.

Sambizie: We opted not to resell them because of the stigma against selling nukes, and we won't do background checks because no matter who we sell to, we'll probably end up losing the trust of someone else. If anything, we'll be donating them to our region's defense force.

Der Angst: Assuming you have something to jam long range space based transmissions unlike any of the more common near earth things, the ability to communicate with it in any meaningful way it doesn't ignore by default, and the ability to burn out something millions of miles away that is hardened against the more powerful solar radiation; yes. Its not impossible, but owing to the unique situation its in, it would probably require the development of purpose built countermeasures.

You could theoretically KE kill it if you have something that can fire slugs way out of orbit, and know where to aim. It might still take a while. We also still have nukes.

[OCC] You coulda just researched safer, cheaper, far less expensive alternatives, you know. All government vehicles in the DCE are required by law to run primarily off of methyl ethyl esters, before recent... somewhat drastic budget cuts, my nation was researching low radiation thermonuclear weaponary, and they cost a hell of a lot less than mirrors in space. And to be sure, if the mirrors were to be ordered to change position (Even from their distance, they can be monitered), it would take several minutes for radio waves to reach it - thusly, a sufficiently capable strategic ICBM strike on your country would turn it to glass before the satellites could be used as weapons. Since I suddenly can't afford any form of nuclear arsenal, I see myself in no real danger. But we'd like to take soma those old nukes - specifically, if you'd like to give it away, we'd like some lithium deuteride from you H bombs[End OCC]

No official word has been given by DCE Emperor Carlos Petron, however, lead military researches have been in quite public outroar over Sileetris' unnecessary actions and attitude towards defense.

OOC: I know the ramifications of it, but for our purposes the positives outweigh the negatives. And once again, no, we are not releasing nuclear material.

Der Angst: Assuming you have something to jam long range space based transmissions unlike any of the more common near earth things, the ability to communicate with it in any meaningful way it doesn't ignore by default, and the ability to burn out something millions of miles away that is hardened against the more powerful solar radiation; yes. Its not impossible, but owing to the unique situation its in, it would probably require the development of purpose built countermeasures.

You could theoretically KE kill it if you have something that can fire slugs way out of orbit, and know where to aim. It might still take a while. We also still have nukes.Heh, you're forgetting something. You managed to put your sunshield waaaay out there (Transporting lotsa mass), you manage to maintain it, and the thing has thrusters capable of keeping its position relative to earth and the sun (No, just letting it orbit is not sufficient, as it would orbit the sun vastly faster than earth does), which means that you're constantly transporting fuel to the thing.

In other words, you're decidedly spacedy. Sub-FTL spacedy, but still spacedy.

So, supposing that $opponent is operating on a technology base roughly similar to your own (Actually, DA would work for that. A tad wankier, but this is accounted for by my general rankings superiority :)), it is quite simple:

1. Jamming simply by stationing a largish satellite with a sufficient powersource/ transmitter nearby, to essentially EM jam everything that comes the LONG way from earth (Read: is already significally reduced in strength simply because it has to go a far longer way).

Of course, just jamming. Burning out should indeed be a significant problem (Nothing that can't be solved by a gamma ray pulse originating from a nuclear detonation, tho).

And KE kills are far easier than that. You just do the same your fuel transports do: You fly there, you drop a load of shrapnels while going a few dozen km/s, and laugh.

Edit: And I'm mildly curious: 'Months away'? The distance to earth in, uh... Million kilometres, perhaps?

Transporting fuel to it? Are you insane? Its sitting in front of the most powerful fuel source in the solar system...

Actually, the reason I think it would be hard to jam is because it communicates via tightbeam lasers, meaning you'd have to physically put something in the beam to recieve the transmission. Obviously if you attempt to start blocking beams we'll start vaporizing satellites. Similarly, if we see KE projectiles heading towards it we'll attempt to destroy them en route.

(I dunno the exact distance, I'd have to go find some publications talking about similar stuff, although it can't be over 8 mins 19 secs away at lightspeed :D)

OOC: OK, the basic idea is a shade that slightly reduces infalling sunlight, and that said shade could have some sort of military application. Nice big thoughts, however there are some problems with it.

One is getting the thing to stay in orbit - problem is that it's a big-ass solar sail. Unless there's an appropriately big counterweight it'll tend to go away from the Sun, and to add insult to injury it'll pick up mass from solar wind.

Oh, and a mirror isn't a solar cell, so solar panels would be extra.

And if you start angling the mirrors, they will tend to pick up appropriate vectors from light pressure. A useful procedure for a lightsail spacecraft. Less so for a solar shade/weapon.

And finally - they are mirrors. A sketch follows (not to scale in any way, shape or form).

O <--- Sun

_ <--- Mirror

. <--- Earth

Now, I tried holding a mirror between my eye and a lamp, and I really couldn't find a way to use it as a focussing device. If your optics course literature suggests otherwise, could you draw a diagram for me?

I don't want to spoil exactly how it works, but lets just say the mirror doesnt have to be a mirror. The mirror doesn't block out 100% of the light, and the light that gets in passes through a layer of solar cells. It stays in place through a variety of means including spinning to shed particles, having slits for them to pass through, and using ion/plasma boosters to provide counterthrust.

And so that doesn't really solve anything--you still get solar sail thrust, still need to expend propellant for stationkeeping, still need to resupply it with said propellant... and those stationkeeping costs are even worse given that it will be going slower than orbital velocity. All one would have to do to kinetic-kill it is launch enough buckshot into the stable retrograde orbit it occupies. Like all "super"weapons, an ingeniously daft idea.

Does anyone realize how much matenance it would require?

If it's constantly being hit by solar stuff and constantly expending some sort of fuel to stay where it's at it's going to be a giant chunk of metal leaving the solar system in a few years.

It doesn't expend anything; it uses the energy gathered from solar power to pull itself forward in the solar wind.

OOC:Well it sounds good but it really doesn't seem a reasonable RL weapon/device one reason being the maintenance cost would be truly massive no matter what you want to believe.

[OOC: Out of interest, how do flat mirrors focus light?]

EDIT: Ah, I see it has already been asked, but whatever. It hasnt been answered yet.

Transporting fuel to it? Are you insane? Its sitting in front of the most powerful fuel source in the solar system...
and using ion/plasma boosters to provide counterthrust.It doesn't expend anything; it uses the energy gathered from solar power to pull itself forward in the solar windMake up your mind. Two quotes say you don't use any propellant, one quote says you do. Last I checked, a well thought-out idea doesn't contradict itself...

Transporting fuel to it? Are you insane? Its sitting in front of the most powerful fuel source in the solar system...
Energy source, you mean, not fuel source. Solar wind will not allow you to keep a stationary orbit between earth and the sun. And the energy the sun produces is indeed very neat when it comes to running energy-expending systems (Electronics). Unfortunately, it isn't a particularly useful propellant.

Actually, the reason I think it would be hard to jam is because it communicates via tightbeam lasers, meaning you'd have to physically put something in the beam to recieve the transmission.Naw, I would have no intention of scattering the laser. I would, however, intend to block your transceivers with random EM noise.

Obviously if you attempt to start blocking beams we'll start vaporizing satellites. Similarly, if we see KE projectiles heading towards it we'll attempt to destroy them en route.How... One-dimensional. Nevermidn that space is three dimensional and that attacks from all directions can be launched with casual ease.

But Scolopendra already addressed this particular point.

All execellent points and true, I agree with Der Angst.

Ok,

Is it using some sort of chemical reaction to pull itself towards the sun?

If not it's STILL using (from what i understand) some sort of thrusters even if it does get its energy from the sun. If it's using thrusters they ARE going to take alot of wear and tear because they would almost always have to be in use.

If someone wanted to do away with this they could target any crews that want to go up to it instead of the weapon itself.

As he said, it's probably using an ion drive which requires extremely little actual fuel other than electrical power, which can easily be provided by a nuclear reactor. I dont see anything wrong with his claims to have put these things up there, but his claims of using them as a weapon are rather bizarre.

Alright I'll answer the focussing light question.... Although I'd rather more stuff be done through IC espionage, and in fact the info given on this thread is basically all ooc.... Embedded throughout the film are contractile regions that can cause wrinkles and hills in the surface, usually used in slight ways to help it in manuevering. By triggering them in certain patterns however, a fresnel lens pattern can be made. By running a certain frequency electrical charge through the mirror material, it becomes transparant, allowing sunlight to flow through the fresnel pattern, focussing the light in an hourglass shape with the target in the middle.

As he said, it's probably using an ion drive which requires extremely little actual fuel other than electrical power, which can easily be provided by a nuclear reactor. I dont see anything wrong with his claims to have put these things up there, but his claims of using them as a weapon are rather bizarre.Little fuel != no fuel. And even an Ion drive needs refueling after a month or two. Which means about one transport every one or two months.

You know, you guys are missing an extremely obvious way of making this thing ineffective. =p

Fuel? Why ever would one need to ship fuel out to something like this? Well, I assume by 'fuel' what's actually meant is 'reaction mass'... these things would kind of be sitting in the solar wind, lots of free protons to scoop up and accelerate with all that free solar energy one is accumulating...

Of course, I suppose it could use some sort of edge-plasma effect to 'crawl' along the solar magnetic field lines, but I dunno if that would be even remotely feasible. :)

Not hard to kill stuff like this in space, too... just point a sufficiently powerful maser at it, tuned to the correct frequency, and you'll cook the radio tranceivers. :D

Oh... uh... OOC, I guess. :p

You know, you guys are missing an extremely obvious way of making this thing ineffective. =p

Wait until night to attack? :D

No, hit the ground station. Who cares if there's a mirror there if he can't talk to it?

Regarding the ground station, I imagine it would be like the facility on Reach if you've ever read the Halo novels. Huge caverns dug into a mountain, tons of different levels of access and almost impossible to destroy from the outside.

It's easier than taking months to fly to some mirror array in the middle of nowhere.

Little fuel != no fuel. And even an Ion drive needs refueling after a month or two. Which means about one transport every one or two months.
No it doesnt. Look up the Deep Space Probe on google.

This is about constant thrust, dear, not about firing up once for two weeks, then letting it continue on its own, only occasionally firing up for course corrections.

This is about constant thrust, dear, not about firing up once for two weeks, then letting it continue on its own, only occasionally firing up for course corrections.
Dear? Dont patronise me.

Ion drives have to be engaged for long periods of time or they dont produce enough thrust to be viable. If you're interested, here is a fairly basic FAQ:

http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/tech/ionpropfaq.html

Regarding the ground station, I imagine it would be like the facility on Reach if you've ever read the Halo novels. Huge caverns dug into a mountain, tons of different levels of access and almost impossible to destroy from the outside.

You mean like Cheyenne Mountain? Well, the only way to do that is to hit the place with a really accurate 25 megaton nuke.

I have two broadcasting stations, neither of which I'm going to reveal ooc since people will invariably use the info ic.

Der angst, your tone is getting a little patronising, I'm sure you wouldn't want to be called dear by some complete stranger, k sweetcheeks? :D

<snip>Yes, I know... uh... Boi? This doesn't help the fuel problem, though, especially since it has to keep an OMFG HUGE MIRROR in place. It's odd, really, but reactionmass based propulsion needs regular refueling, like it or not.

I have two broadcasting stations, neither of which I'm going to reveal ooc since people will invariably use the info ic.
You want to add anything to your declaration of RP bankruptcy, or are you satisfied with what you've managed so far?

Yes, I know... uh... Boi? This doesn't help the fuel problem, though, especially since it has to keep an OMFG HUGE MIRROR in place. It's odd, really, but reactionmass based propulsion needs regular refueling, like it or not.
Boi? That isnt even a word.

Nuclear reactors tend to be able to go for several years without refueling and that's with constant use, not the odd course correction.

Nuclear reactors produce the Xenon you need for the Ion thrusters... How, again? All they would be is, ah... A waste of space (And, more importantly, mass), since for once Silletris isn't entirely insane: Close to the sun, you don't use nuclear reactors for energy. You use solar energy.

And the first to go nitpicking about the sun being a nuclear reactor 1.2 million kilometres in diameter gets eaten by rabid stoats.

And please remember that this is about constant use, since you need to permanently stabilise your orbit.

The sun gives you power and a constant stream of charged particles to pull yourself through. It works more like a propeller than a rocket.

Why not just stick this thing in the Earth-Sun L1 Lagrange point? Okay, so it's only pseudo-stable (unlike L4 and L5), but tha'd seriously cut down any reaction -mass requirements.

BTW, henceforth, all buildings in Warrigal will be outfitted with phase-conjugate mirror roofing tiles. :D